444: The Art Not to be an Egoist 9

I hope you have all watched the TED lecture of Frans de Waal. If not I'll give you the URL at the end of the lecture again.

Capuchin monkeys are not our closest relatives. Nevertheless, they can give us some insights. Even monkeys, it seems, cherish certain social expectations. 

And they have a sense of how others should treat them. Learning of capuchins means to see, that the creatures that have a rough idea of a Self, have expectations and demands about how they ought be treated.

And it means to see how the highly developed sense of justice of the human being might have taken its start somewhere there and that the Self is the logical place where you should look for its origin. 

If  the self-centered form is just there, then it is possible that it can be expanded so that it includes other individuals.

The ability to be fair, and that is the point here, is not a product of culture or an exclusively human consensus. It is deeply rooted into the animal kingdom. 

But is the sense of unfairness that overcame the unfairly treaded Capuchin monkey, already the same as a sense of fairness?

You can doubt that. When the other Capuchin monkey had been really "fair' he might have had the option to share his grape with his so unfairly treated colleague.

From this point of view it would not be proper to speak of a sense of justice in Capuchin monkey, but at least of an elementary sense of unfairness.

De Waal's theory of morality has a friendly face: The germ of the Good in man is an old story from the animal kingdom, which emerged from social behavior. 

Conflict resolution was the beginning, compassion and fairness were added later. From social to moral animal  it is just a small step, or rather a series of small steps.

To understand the baboons or even more the great apes means to discover the roots of our morality: in cooperation and comforting, gratitude and a sense of community.

De Waals model of morality is a kind of layered one:  Hidden in the heart is the emotional reflex, triggered by the behavior of others.

You find this just about anywhere in the higher animals. In the middle is the empathy, the ability to assess the emotions of another, including their reasons. Great apes appear to be capable of doing so like humans.

The outermost layer is the art of taking full account of the perspective of another. Only this is exclusively human. 

This is according to de Waal the evolutionary history of our morality, as revealed in the behavior of our closest relatives in the animal kingdom.

So morality has an origin in emotional responses and is not primarily under control of our rationality. That came only later, where moral intuitions went over into moral rules.

So we may conclude, that there is evidence, that our morality is not just a layer of thin veneer on a bestial and uncontrolled human nature.

John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873) recognized this basic intuition and called it our sense of justice. And its flip side is the need to punish those who violate this feeling.

Our brain even  activates our reward center in the mesolimbic system, when we see how other people are punished for their unfairness, regardless it was unfairness towards us or to some other person.

Our ability to moral behavior, as we have seen, has deep and old roots. It is not a thin veneer created by culture. But how strong is our moral intuition?

In other words, what part does our Ratio play in all this?

The Discussion 

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:20] herman Bergson: for those who missed de Waal...

[13:20] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:20] herman Bergson: The long version of de Waal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Lm49XVkGQ

[13:20] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): interesting Herman

[13:21] herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-))

[13:21] Jane Fossett: "Justice" and "Fairness" are very different concepts.

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i will watch the video later

[13:21] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): what is the difference between moral behavior and moral intuition?

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Jane....

[13:22] herman Bergson: Maybe that is the role of our Ratio...

[13:22] Qwark Allen: we are talking about animals in general? or just primates?

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): By the way, for the record, that parable I mentioned last time is Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. Matthew 20:1-16.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Inndeed merlin...

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Mainly we talk about the higher animals and esp. primates here Qwark....

[13:23] Qwark Allen: i agree, mamels in general

[13:23] herman Bergson: And moral intuition causes moral behavior...

[13:23] herman Bergson: or like the moneys showed....

[13:24] herman Bergson: they have an intuition of fairness which causes the way they behaved

[13:24] Qwark Allen: probably we``ll see it even more, in the aquatic ones

[13:24] Qwark Allen: like dolphins and whales

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: How would you define the word intuition Herman?

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought in the second video the co-operation of the chimps might be self-motivated in order to maintain social relationships.

[13:25] herman Bergson: intuition is for me a kind of how the brain is programmed to respond Lizzy

[13:25] Jane Fossett: And Moral intuition may well be ingrained, but not always for the good. There is likely an evolved sense of self protection and 'group identity' to the exclusion of others. The old testament is full of atrocities in the name of God. So is Revelation.

[13:25] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ok that is acceptable, because moral is also changing in societies

[13:25] Jane Fossett: My group is good so you must die.

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Jane....We and the others....

[13:26] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that issue in future lectures....

[13:26] herman Bergson: on the other hand....

[13:26] Jane Fossett: Chimps do that too.

[13:26] herman Bergson: the intuition I am talking about has developed far before the Old Testemental humans....

[13:27] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:27] Qwark Allen: testameqntal humans are related to what? 6 - 10000 years ago?

[13:27] Qwark Allen: ehhehe

[13:27] herman Bergson: One characteristic is the cooperative attitude in social beings....like Kropotkin showed

[13:27] Qwark Allen: i see your point hermann

[13:27] herman Bergson: harly Qwark,,,,

[13:28] Qwark Allen: like this kind of behavior is innate

[13:28] herman Bergson: 4500 years ago or less I would say..

[13:28] herman Bergson: Moses lived among the Egyptians

[13:28] Qwark Allen: probalby comes from millions years ago

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): are you going back to adam and eve?

[13:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hehe

[13:29] Qwark Allen: much far back then those 2

[13:29] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:29] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well look at the table at the wall to my left...

[13:29] Jane Fossett: (Kropotkin was a communist.... :-) )

[13:29] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: Like I said in another lecture....

[13:30] herman Bergson: there seems to be a relation to the political view and the view on human nature Jane

[13:30] Jane Fossett: true.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Like Hobbes therefore could never be a communist :-))

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: do people from different cultures have different intuitions in certain respects?

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good question

[13:30] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): they have

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe not Lizzy....

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think so since it is based on different experiences

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in their lives

[13:31] herman Bergson: If you thing of mutual care, honesty, friendship, gratitude...feelings like that

[13:31] Qwark Allen: probably what is fair to a new guinea man, is not fair to me

[13:31] herman Bergson: They seem to have a universal character

[13:31] Qwark Allen: even both have fairness judgement

[13:32] Jane Fossett: but only in the 'group'

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh by the way. BBC Radio4 In Our Time today is about Russell.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane....

[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): and what is the group

[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): depends on interests

[13:32] herman Bergson: Teh group is the context Wittgenstein referred to...

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): And they even mention Wittgenstein briefly too

[13:33] herman Bergson: The truth of an emperical statement is not given as such...it is elated to a context....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Liek the example I gave...

[13:33] herman Bergson: A give B money....

[13:33] herman Bergson: tat seems to be the empirical fact

[13:33] herman Bergson: But what is the proposition to describe it...

[13:34] herman Bergson: A pays B

[13:34] herman Bergson: A loans money to B

[13:34] herman Bergson: A pays a debt to B

[13:34] herman Bergson: All seem to refer to the same empirical situation...

[13:34] herman Bergson: yet you need the context to establish the truth value of the statement

[13:35] herman Bergson: Is it isn a store, in a bar, in a bank...etc.

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: i am wondering what the difference between intuition and instinct is

[13:35] Catt (catt.gable): nods

[13:35] Jane Fossett: Logic defines 'truth' not context, correct?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...so far we dare say that there is a biological and evolutionary explanation of the origin of morality....

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): but seems to be very basic only

[13:36] Qwark Allen: fair enough

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): why morality is off in wars as an example?

[13:36] herman Bergson: intuition and instinct....

[13:37] herman Bergson: I would say that they are two words looking at the same ting from a different angle

[13:37] herman Bergson: intuition comes from psychology....instinct comes from biology

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: ty for the definition Herman

[13:38] herman Bergson: I think our next chapter will be to investigate how our rationality handles the intuitions we just discussed....

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:38] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: But that will be a subject for future lectures....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: will be interesting for sure

[13:39] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your interest and participation again....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:39] Qwark Allen: its not fair

[13:39] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:39] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes will be interesting

[13:39] Qwark Allen: class just ended

[13:39] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ty herman

[13:39] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:39] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:40] Jane Fossett: thank you!

[13:40] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:40] Guestboook van tipjar stand: bergfrau Apfelbaum donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty, herman

[13:40] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:40] herman Bergson: My pleasure...

[13:40] Qwark Allen: :-)))

433: The Art Not to be an Egoist 8

I ended my previous lecture with saying:"At this point we could formulate the hypothesis that human nature is in essence characterized by the urge to cooperate, which implies the emergence of good and evil."

This sounds rather positive. It would be good, if we could find some more evidence for this observation. In that respect Darwin himself gave us a good hint.

"Anyone who understands the baboon, would contribute more to  metaphysics than John Locke." once the young Darwin predicted in his notebook of 1838.

Studying and observing the behavior of primates is in fact a way of observing the behavior of our ancestors. A man, who became famous with that, is the now 64 years old Frans de Waal.

(born 29 October 1948), a Dutch primatologist and ethologist, professor of Primate Behavior in the Emory University psychology department in Atlanta, Georgia, and director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center,

author of numerous books including "Chimpanzee Politics" and "Our Inner Ape". His research centers on primate social behavior, including conflict resolution, cooperation, inequity aversion, and food-sharing.

The apes that he observed possessed an amazing intelligence. They were able to agree with each other in very sophisticated ways. 

They had a sense of social rules. They were able to see themselves as  a "self" apart from others. And they had a memory that allowed them to relate events of the past and present to each other.

Together with his colleague dr. Sarah Brosnan de Waal started a series of behavioral experiments with Capuchin monkeys. They are intelligent, peaceful and have a very complex social life.

Creatures that can detect intentions, cherish expectations. Depending on what  I do, another responds hostile or friendly to me. 

Commonly, these reactions do not hit me like a lightning bolt, for I have beforehand expected them. When I say "please", I rather expect that to me a wish is granted, as when I bark a command. 

But where do expectations come from? Do only humans have expectations or monkeys too? And can one make visible an attitude of expectation of monkeys in an experiment.?

Brosnan and de Waal wanted to find out whether Capuchin monkeys expect, that they are treated in a fair way. Do these monkeys have a real sense of FAIRNESS like humans have?

Here I can let Frans de Waal take over. You really have to see this.

Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8mynrRd7Ak

Let me know when you are done….takes about three minutes.

The Discussion

[13:20:58] Lizzy Pleides: I love it

[13:21:02] Qwark Allen: ahahha so funny

[13:21:03] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hahahaha very funny

[13:21:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol this is funny

[13:21:17] herman Bergson: great isnt it....^_^

[13:21:19] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): amazing

[13:21:25] Qwark Allen: awesome

[13:21:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): delightful...

[13:21:27] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:21:28] herman Bergson: Yes amazing....

[13:21:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Envy!

[13:22:15] Vadaman: Great!

[13:22:53] herman Bergson: Everybody back?

[13:22:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): sense of fairness

[13:22:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): im back

[13:23:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:23:04] Mick Nerido: yes

[13:23:11] Vadaman: Back

[13:23:18] herman Bergson: They did an interesting variation of the test....

[13:23:21] Chu Ann (hermine): haha

[13:23:38] herman Bergson: they put a box of grapes in full vision of both apes....

[13:23:56] herman Bergson: but both apes got only pieces of cucumber as reward....

[13:24:26] herman Bergson: It showed that the cucumber was perfectly ok with them...both got the same reward...

[13:24:31] Qwark Allen: probably a human will throw the rock to the scientist

[13:24:45] herman Bergson: The seeing of the grapes didn't influence their behavior at all

[13:25:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): QED

[13:25:08] herman Bergson: Well the monkey threw the cucumber piece ^_^

[13:25:11] herman Bergson: good start

[13:25:25] Qwark Allen: ehhehe yes , my point

[13:25:29] herman Bergson: So he was almost human Qwark...^_^

[13:25:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is QED Debbie?

[13:25:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): proven mathematically

[13:25:55] herman Bergson: Quod erat demonstrandum

[13:26:03] herman Bergson: Latin

[13:26:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you

[13:26:19] herman Bergson: This is a part of a TED lecture by Frans de Waal which takes more than 16 minutes. You better watch that in your own time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Lm49XVkGQ

[13:26:34] herman Bergson: But watch it.....!

[13:26:48] herman Bergson: Homework!

[13:26:52] herman Bergson: Next lecture we'll continue on this issue.

Thank you ^_^

[13:27:15] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ^^

[13:27:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman.

[13:27:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Interesting to contrast the concept of envy with 'sense of fairness'

[13:27:36] herman Bergson: My pleasure Debbbie

[13:27:36] Chu Ann (hermine): thank you herman.

[13:27:48] Vadaman: Yes, thanks Herman.

[13:27:59] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you

[13:28:08] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Thinking biblically again... the story of the unequal pay rates

[13:28:21] herman Bergson: This all seems to give us some hope about mankind......in the long run...:-)

[13:28:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): very nice , herman

[13:29:01] herman Bergson: That is an interesting story Merlin indeed

[13:29:11] Qwark Allen: good stuff hermann

[13:29:18] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh ty. Glad somebody was listening ;)

[13:29:32] herman Bergson: But there is a big difference....

[13:29:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes?

[13:30:03] herman Bergson: in that biblical story men were all paid the same while they all had unequal labor tasks

[13:30:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes thats the one... one guy arrived late

[13:30:28] herman Bergson: The monkeys have the same task but are paid unequal....

[13:30:37] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:30:55] herman Bergson: but got paid as if he had arrived with the others...

[13:31:09] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) nods

[13:31:12] Vadaman: Made me think about the southern european uprising.

[13:31:17] herman Bergson: interesting.....

[13:31:31] herman Bergson: In what way Vada?

[13:32:32] herman Bergson: Still thinking about Merlins remark...

[13:32:48] Vadaman: The riots. The unemploiment. The anger.

[13:33:03] herman Bergson: What would happen when both monkeys were paid a grape while only one had to return a stone?

[13:33:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): good question

[13:33:42] Vadaman: Good question indeed.

[13:33:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well the stone is only a token in this case

[13:33:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Maybe needs a more substantial task

[13:34:02] herman Bergson: It is work Merlin....

[13:34:18] herman Bergson: One has to work for his grape while the other gets it for free

[13:34:52] herman Bergson: Question is....

[13:35:05] herman Bergson: does the ape mind returning stones

[13:35:10] herman Bergson: that is...

[13:35:23] herman Bergson: relates it to a higher reward...like humans would do?

[13:35:43] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): it is not easy to answer, because of that simplification

[13:35:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, your hypothesis is that creatures that can "detect intentions and cherish expectations" develop moral and ethical values....

[13:36:03] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I could not predict...it needs another experiment

[13:36:05] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the human comparison will be more complicated

[13:36:11] herman Bergson: You only can answer it by doing the tests with the apes

[13:36:33] Qwark Allen: i saw a bit of the link you pasted

[13:36:33] Chu Ann (hermine): right

[13:36:37] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....that is what I am thinking about....

[13:36:38] Chu Ann (hermine): that's also my opinion

[13:36:43] Qwark Allen: it will answer that question

[13:36:58] Chu Ann (hermine): k will test it with my cats tomorrow^^

[13:37:05] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:37:06] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ^

[13:37:07] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:37:07] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:37:10] herman Bergson: When the apes only are focused on the reward whatever they do, they wont protest

[13:37:18] Chu Ann (hermine): it will be a disaster i know^^

[13:37:37] herman Bergson: You need two cats for that Chu ^_^

[13:37:47] Qwark Allen: there is a test with selfish and pro social behavior

[13:37:57] Chu Ann (hermine): ok. one will be locked

[13:37:57] Qwark Allen: fun to see how it goes

[13:38:13] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....

[13:38:42] Qwark Allen: when the monkey doesn`t receive the reward protests with the other monkey, then the other gets more selfish

[13:38:43] Chu Ann (hermine): it is not easy to see in a mind of a pe

[13:38:45] herman Bergson: in the 16 minutes video you will see more funny things....

[13:39:09] herman Bergson: No Chu, but I will get to that in the next lecture

[13:39:28] Chu Ann (hermine): ok, but thursday i have no time;-((

[13:39:35] Chu Ann (hermine): i guess i have to read the blog then

[13:39:45] herman Bergson: The text will be published in the blog always

[13:39:53] Chu Ann (hermine): good

[13:39:58] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): good to know

[13:40:25] herman Bergson: all 438 or more lectures of all projects you can find there ^_^

[13:40:35] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): uiii much to read

[13:40:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hermans library ;)

[13:40:51] herman Bergson: People from all over the world come at least to the page...

[13:40:58] Chu Ann (hermine): ^^

[13:41:01] herman Bergson: Whether they read it or not I don't know ^_^

[13:41:08] herman Bergson: I hope they do:-)

[13:41:23] Qwark Allen: i think so, so many interesting ideas there

[13:41:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes I have a web site with stats and you can never tell what is in the mind of the viewer

[13:41:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): I've used it

[13:41:45] herman Bergson: There on the wall..the map of the world..

[13:42:04] herman Bergson: Well....

[13:42:21] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....you are a nice class ^_^

[13:42:30] herman Bergson: See you on Thursday....

[13:42:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:42:41] Qwark Allen: thank you hermann

[13:42:48] Qwark Allen: very good as usual .-)))

[13:42:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:42:52] Chu Ann (hermine): have a lovely rest of the week all

[13:42:54] herman Bergson: My pleasure Qwark

[13:42:57] Qwark Allen: going to see the all video now

[13:43:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman ;) - im going to watch the homework

[13:43:07] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): have a nice week too, herman

[13:43:11] Qwark Allen: you are always so enlightening

[13:43:12] herman Bergson: Yes plz do....it is worth it

[13:43:21] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.

[13:43:31] Lizzy Pleides: have a nice evening all!

[13:43:42] Chu Ann (hermine): so bye all and see u next week^^

[13:43:44] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy ^_^

[13:43:49] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): by lizzy

[13:43:49] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thanks Herman :)

432: The Art Not to be an Egoist 7

Surveying the ideas, which were presented to you in the past few lectures, I really dare to say that we have made real progress.

Our central question is whether morality is a part of human nature or not. And related to that question we wonder how morality works.

We all want to be good and yet we do bad things now and then, small ones and big ones. What to think about that?

At least we learnt that something like an absolute Good like Plato suggested, does not exist. On the other hand neither are we amoral, selfish beasts, like Hobbes suggested.

That ethics is just a thin layer of culture which Herder or Lorenz thought isn't probable either. The cooperative nature of all kinds of animals and the human being too, as Kropotkin had observed, seems to contradict that.

It is interesting to see how this balancing between individualism and collectivism through history also expresses itself in our political systems.

On the one hand we see extreme individualism in liberalism, when you think of the ideas of Ayn Rand, on the other hand extreme collectivism, which we have seen in communist countries.

And all this as an answer to the question: what is the essence of human nature? Fascinating. So, let us continue our quest.

Contrary to all other animals, we have one great tool to communicate this subject: our language. But why are we debating on ethics? Why can't we get a clear and unambiguous theory on good and bad?

Why didn't man succeed in developing a language with words for everything? Why is our language not that accurate? 

A philosopher who was pretty annoyed by these questions was Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889 - 1951). He spent a lot of effort on cleaning up language and attemptinh to remove ambiguities. He gave up.

In the period 1922 - 1936 a whole group of philosophers struggled with the ambiguity and inaccuracy of language: The Vienna Circle was the name of the group.

Logical analysis is the method of clarification of philosophical problems; it makes an extensive use of symbolic logic. The task of philosophy lies in the clarification—through the method of logical analysis—of problems and assertions, was their point of view.

In spite of the development of a number of logical languages, they never succeeded in developing the desired precision language. Why didn't they succeed?

One reason may be that we don't need such a precision language in our daily life. If we would need such a language , it would be in sciences.

The basic goal of the Vienna Circle was to have a language, in which every statement unambiguously describes an observable state of affairs in reality, a kind of one on one relation.

But reality isn't so unambiguous. I can perfectly describe a molecule, but when asked to describe friendship or love, trying to capture those concepts in words, we have a problem.

And what happens, when I try to translate my words into another language? In German you have the word "Bewustsein", but in English you can use "consciousness" or "awareness" to translate it. Two words for one !?!

The goal of the Vienna Circle was to put an end to the eternal discussion on truth. And this truth had to be 100% empirically established by means of an unambiguous language.

Then why did mankind only came up with this plan in 1922? Why had it not been working on it in the past 60.000 years for instance?

The answer to this question could be surprisingly simple: language was never invented to be an instrument of truth. The problem of truth was in human evolution not its first and most important problem.

Communication in a group is in the first place focused on understanding each other. Understanding in the sense of knowing what the other means and in the second place grasping intentions and expectations of other group members.

To be continued next Thursday...

The Discussion

[13:29:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman

[13:29:11] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and all very involved

[13:29:17] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:29:22] seekerp: thank u

[13:29:35] Mouse Moorlord (mouse.moorlord): thank you

[13:29:41] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thanks herman

[13:29:43] Vadaman: Thank you.

[13:29:45] herman Bergson: Ohh..I forgot to mention a new gadget...

[13:29:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): Logic fails because things we experience are on a continuous scale, not on or off.

[13:29:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): ?

[13:30:10] herman Bergson: Next time...:-)

[13:30:19] Bejiita Imako: new gadget?

[13:30:24] herman Bergson: Logic is good for science...

[13:30:41] herman Bergson: and for decent argumentations...

[13:30:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but difficult in communicating every minute

[13:31:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes provided the question is well defined.

[13:31:11] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:31:43] herman Bergson: The funny thing is that mankind never invented language for truth finishing or science in the first place....

[13:31:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): you can ask " is it red" and get many opinions, for example. And what of love? how much?

[13:32:24] herman Bergson: Eventually philosophical questions arose....but that was only after 60.0000 years

[13:32:34] herman Bergson: - 0

[13:32:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its hard to be philosophical when you are just surviving I imagine.

[13:33:14] herman Bergson: That is the point Debbie....

[13:33:25] Bejiita Imako: hmm that might be true indeed

[13:33:28] Kime Babenco: Last Ice Age ended 12 000 BP and lasted 90 000 years...

[13:33:39] herman Bergson: Does someone know the novel of Jean Auel... The clan of the Cave Bear?

[13:33:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:34:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its once co-operation led to free time that philosophy emerged?

[13:34:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes

[13:34:11] herman Bergson: In that novel she describes two kinds of people....

[13:34:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

[13:34:31] herman Bergson: The clan...more or less neaderthalers I guess

[13:34:49] herman Bergson: and the homo spiens...Cro-magnon I guess...

[13:35:06] herman Bergson: The Clan didnt use verbal language...

[13:35:17] herman Bergson: their main language was gestures...

[13:35:34] herman Bergson: while the homo sapiens used speech...

[13:35:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am always sceptic about learning from works of fiction

[13:36:04] herman Bergson: The idea is that our language developed from gestures...

[13:36:14] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow i have learned a lot from fiction

[13:36:36] herman Bergson: No Merlin her work was not fiction with respect to the facts

[13:36:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Speech is so much more than gestures, but still based on one idea - one gesture.

[13:37:05] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie and it made me thing....

[13:37:16] herman Bergson: We make gestures while we speak...

[13:37:22] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:37:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): but with adjectives to deal with the fuzzy bits between ideas -

[13:37:38] herman Bergson: You would say...yes ok...is because we want to put emphasis on our words...

[13:37:55] herman Bergson: but why should we?

[13:38:10] herman Bergson: there is no reasonable relation

[13:38:32] herman Bergson: unless you think....language and communication started with a gesture language...

[13:38:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Communication of ideas can be multi-media, and gestures are a channel?

[13:38:55] herman Bergson: and our gesture behavior is a remnant of that prehistoric development in evolution

[13:39:08] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh - nice extrapolation.

[13:39:13] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:39:24] Bejiita Imako: I see

[13:39:33] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats very much possible

[13:39:43] herman Bergson: I was thinking of the flat heads of Jean Auel....and their language...

[13:39:51] Kime Babenco: I have some doubts, about old histories , from more than 1500 years ago and definitely about older than 3500 years ago... No one wrote anything down at that time... It's mostly speculation I think...

[13:40:02] herman Bergson: their evolution had come to an end...

[13:40:32] herman Bergson: Of course it is speculation Kime...

[13:40:44] herman Bergson: but not blind speculation....

[13:40:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): But based on many observations

[13:41:14] herman Bergson: on the one hand we have prehistoric finds...

[13:41:42] herman Bergson: which show that people lived in groups and made arms and pottery , used fire etc.

[13:41:57] herman Bergson: on the other hand we have the primates....

[13:42:23] herman Bergson: relatives for whom evolution stopped where the homo sapiens continued

[13:42:30] herman Bergson: like chimpansees…

[13:42:53] herman Bergson: We still are guessing...of course...

[13:42:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could the prehistoric man speak?..even if he wanted like apes?

[13:43:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): The Cango Caves near me have been occupied for 70 000 years by small group of bushmen. The archeoligists have been working the site for 100 years now.

[13:43:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): there is a rich diversity of information

[13:43:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Dawkins reminds us that we did not evolve from chimpanzees etc, but we have a common ancestor, different from either.

[13:43:58] herman Bergson: The prehistoric man had vocal cords Beertje..so he could make vocal sounds....like apes can too nowadays

[13:44:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes but is it a language?

[13:44:33] herman Bergson: That is a complex question....

[13:44:49] herman Bergson: animals communicate by sounds and signs....

[13:44:58] herman Bergson: But these are fixed patterns....

[13:45:17] Debbie Dee (framdor): Doesn't your cat talk to you at dinner time?

[13:45:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:45:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:45:24] Bejiita Imako: yes no variation

[13:45:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol Debbie

[13:45:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): haven't a cat....

[13:45:37] herman Bergson: There must have been a moment that the homo sapiens began to vary on these fixed patterns of communication

[13:45:49] Bejiita Imako: a dogs bark for ex is just a bark, no way telling if it its happy or angry

[13:45:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): birds talk to us sometimes

[13:46:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my parrot asks me for food..in my own language

[13:46:07] Bejiita Imako: which can be dangerous in some situations

[13:46:12] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i mean in their language

[13:46:17] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): omg lol

[13:46:22] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:46:31] herman Bergson: I am afraid not Beertje....

[13:46:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think whales and dolphins and elephants all have reasonably encoded grunts to use

[13:46:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and dogs barks do have meanings

[13:46:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): languages for whales

[13:46:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not just grunts

[13:47:02] seekerp: thank u everyone very nice to meet u all

[13:47:06] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....whales seem to be true composers....never the same song....

[13:47:16] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): come thursday seekerp

[13:47:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): same time

[13:47:23] herman Bergson: we just don't understand them

[13:47:33] Mouse Moorlord (mouse.moorlord): thank you for that nice lessons and talk ...good bye everyone

[13:47:35] Bejiita Imako: mayee are some patterns in it but maybee hard for us to distinguish between them

[13:47:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye to mouse

[13:47:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye mouse and seekerp

[13:47:55] Vadaman: Bye

[13:47:56] Bejiita Imako: whales are interesting for sure

[13:47:57] herman Bergson: By Mice

[13:47:59] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they understand them tho

[13:48:08] Kime Babenco: Yes, probably, but did we really had to engrave on a disc what we don't understand from whales and send it with the voyager 2 ? It's always a risk to spread a message you don't know ..

[13:48:13] Bejiita Imako: rhey use some kind of patterns

[13:48:21] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): bye mouse and seekerp

[13:48:25] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:48:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bejita, they are not talking to us...

[13:48:31] Bejiita Imako: bye mouse and seeker

[13:48:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right to each other!

[13:48:53] Bejiita Imako: no but its more clear that whales use some kind of language then dogs

[13:48:58] Bejiita Imako: at least for me

[13:49:06] herman Bergson: The thing is ..

[13:49:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): won't it be easier to have an universal language so we can understand each other more?

[13:49:30] herman Bergson: when consciousness kicked in language became a much more richer tool of communication...

[13:49:49] herman Bergson: The Esperanto idea Beertje?

[13:49:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:49:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes for instance

[13:50:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or dutch:)))

[13:50:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): whats happened to esperanto?

[13:50:07] herman Bergson: For some reason a complete failure

[13:50:12] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): doesn't catch on tho

[13:50:16] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:50:17] Kime Babenco: People can not even agree about one device of paying...

[13:50:28] Vadaman: Is there still people who know esperanto??

[13:50:28] herman Bergson: and the reason is that language is related to its cultural context...

[13:50:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): people tend too hang on to their mothers language

[13:50:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as you see with immigrants first generation

[13:50:53] Bejiita Imako: yes it have been hard coded in the brain seems like

[13:50:54] herman Bergson: Like the Vienna Circle thought it could develop the universal language of science...

[13:50:56] Bejiita Imako: hard to chenge

[13:50:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no one understands my mothers language..not even the dutch:0

[13:51:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:51:07] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:51:09] Bejiita Imako: hahahahaha

[13:51:12] herman Bergson: so did think the people who believed in Esperanto

[13:51:36] Kime Babenco: Yes indeed... In Social Geography ... it was declared of being partof a specific group..; a unity...

[13:51:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Oliedegalliedenalliíenok?

[13:52:04] Bejiita Imako: what?

[13:52:06] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:52:14] herman Bergson: You could say that Beertje...:-)

[13:52:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)giggles

[13:52:26] herman Bergson: But can we all agree to that? ^_^

[13:52:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't know:) depends...

[13:52:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): I will ;)

[13:53:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not me

[13:53:14] herman Bergson: Well..we can vote on it..^_^

[13:53:24] herman Bergson: Anyway….

[13:53:36] herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation again...

[13:53:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53:46] herman Bergson: it was a nice class as usual :-)

[13:53:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday

[13:53:51] Bejiita Imako: another interesting event

[13:53:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i hope

[13:53:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): Great lecture thanks herman...

[13:53:56] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:54:06] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

431: The Art Not to be an Egoist 6

My previous lecture I ended with saying "With regard to  the current state of knowledge, what  should strengthen us on the assumption that our "bad" behavior comes from the animal kingdom, the "good", however, comes from the human culture?

When you look at the question from  a historical perspective, we can make a few interesting observations. 

The answer to the question whether  human nature is inherently good or bad relates strongly to political ideologies.

Hobbes' idea of the social contract was based in the conviction, that man as such was neither good nor bad, 

but that conflicting interests leads to a war of all against all.Therefor you need a strong government and in his opinion a king.

John Stuart Mill also saw the selfish nature of man, but he was milder. He believed that the conflicting interests would balance out.

Not because we are such brilliant beings, but because there always was an "invisible hand" that would guide the social processes. Of course he believed it was the hand of God.

Darwin too looked at man as an individual, trying to be the fittest, where being good or bad inherently, being a moral individual, was something typically human.

Huxeley was clear about it. Ethics is the product of culture and not an inherent feature of human nature. And all these ideas were perfect for a liberal point of view: it is the individual who has to make it.

But not everybody agreed to this individualistic approach around 1900. Survival of the fittest? OK, but how did that work? Do you survive as the fittest individual or as the fittest member of a group, this strengthening the group?

This was the the direction Pyotr Alexeyevich Kropotkin (1842 –  1921), a Russian zoologist, evolutionary theorist, philosopher, revolutionary, economist, writer, and one of the world's foremost anarcho-communists, was thinking.

In 1902 Kropotkin published the book "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution", which provided an alternative view on animal and human survival, 

beyond the claims of interpersonal competition and natural hierarchy offered at the time by some "social Darwinists", such as Francis Galton.

He argued "that it was an evolutionary emphasis on cooperation instead of competition in the Darwinian sense that made for the success of species, including the human."

Kropotkin explored the widespread use of cooperation as a survival mechanism in human societies through their many stages, and animals. 

He used many real life examples in an attempt to show that the main factor in facilitating evolution is cooperation between individuals in free-associated societies and groups, without central control, authority or compulsion. 

This was in order to counteract the conception of fierce competition as the core of evolution, that provided a rationalization for the dominant political, economic and social theories of the time; and the prevalent interpretations of Darwinism. 

Kropotkin did not deny the presence of competitive urges in humans, but believed that they were not the driving force of history as capitalists and social Darwinists claimed.

What means Kropotkin to our question? Has his kind consideration of man as an inherently collaborative being maintained itself? What do the experts say about it at the present? 

Kropotkin's understanding of our animal and human ancestors had been limited perforce: some unearthed bones of prehistoric man, some unfortunate creatures of great apes in the London Zoo - 

on this  basis one  could only speculate about the nature of man. Do we still speculate or do we have real knowledge about human nature today?

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:22] herman Bergson: one message...

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm ... interesting question to end on

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay herman - great topic.

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:22] herman Bergson: Next Thursday no class because of Thanksgivingday in the US

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:22] herman Bergson: The floor is yours

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think moral values, and ethics are the cornerstones of co-operation

[13:23] herman Bergson: They are Debbie

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: sounds logical

[13:23] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): I see - would you see Kropotkin more as an antecedent sociobiologist?

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): we agree to not do bad to each other....

[13:23] herman Bergson: and in that sense Kropotkin was an interesting thinker

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think cooperation is a result of evolution. It makes in the individual stronger.

[13:24] herman Bergson: He came up with counter arguments against the individualistic interpretation of evolution

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): All that Social Darwinism thinking makes me think (again) of Bees

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: my opinion is there is no contradiction between Darwin's and Kropotkin's theory and we are still speculating

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): I thought of bees too.

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Nice name Kropotkin. Velvet, he argues that cooperation evolved too.?

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am currently reading Dawkins latest book, The Greatest Show on Earth

[13:25] herman Bergson: Ahh...

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): Kropotkin did?

[13:25] herman Bergson: canyou tell us about it merlin?

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It is his attempt to convince people of the truth of evolution

[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:26] herman Bergson: well evolution is a fact I would say...

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): It's odd that people have to be convinced.

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But he revisits his old ideas too

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Is there any doubt about evolution?

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes indeed Velvet

[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): amazing

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Debbie, apparently 40% in USA disbelieve in evolution

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes is a problem there ^_^

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hmm eee ok

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): evangelicals

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: but the reason is faith and not science

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): Neil DeGrasse Tyson said, "the great thing about science is that it exists whether you believe in it or not."

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh my! thats alarming. They are creationists?

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but there are so many ultra religious people in US

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: must be why

[13:28] herman Bergson: Nice quote Velvet!

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: mormons and stuff

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): Tyson is the man.

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i like that velvet

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): he downgraded Pluto from a planet, but I don't hold that against him.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: science is the true fact

[13:28] herman Bergson: What Kropotkin adds to our discussion is that evolution is not just an individual thing...

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Dawkins reminds us that ultimately it is the gene which seeks to survive and it does so by helping the animal to survive

[13:29] herman Bergson: but a group, a social thing...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: I use to say,I believe in god when it have been scientifically proved hes been seen

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that he exists

[13:29] herman Bergson: that cooperation is the basis of the emergence of ethics,

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): anyway, the idea that cooperation enhances human survival makes it an evolutionary force. and most of our recent evolution involves huge co-operative efforts - great works etc

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: when science can prove them i believe and i have myself never seen ghosts

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): or the other way, Herman. ethics is the result of cooperation.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Indeed Debbie

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): In nature there is very little co-operation

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: thats true for sure

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): Merlin, you were just mentioning bees.

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: heheh bees cooperate a lot as iI see

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Velvet You have got me there ;)

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): and pack animals

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): In nature - ants cooperate ....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: and make honey . YUKMY!

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:31] herman Bergson: Can you tell us something about Dawkins argumentation Merlin?

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham) points at Bejiita

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think there is a great deal of cooperation in nature

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: me too

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): He gives the example of trees trying to outgrow each other....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...next lecture will be about that topic

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If they cooperated they need not be tall

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but they are not all tall

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is the canopy

[13:32] herman Bergson: But that is a kind of antropomorphism…of trees

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): and they don't think....as far as we know!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and undergrowth

[13:32] herman Bergson: trees aren't social beings...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and ground growth

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): you have to look out for others if you work in a cooperative, hence, ethics.

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): they go together.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet...

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): So to sum up, our moral values are societal norms, to help us co-operate. How and why does the co-operation fail?

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): lots of ways to fail!

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): self interest above group interest?

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: when one in the team absolutely wanna do in another way conflicts arise

[13:33] herman Bergson: but the first question is..is ethics embedded in huma nature.....or is it nurture only...

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes bejita

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: pulls in the other direction

[13:34] herman Bergson: If you follow Kroptkins ideas..it IS human nature...

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but is it in ALL human beings?

[13:35] herman Bergson: So a conclusion could be that we are a peculiar mix of selfishness and altruism...

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think it would be useful to look also at apes

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its not just all humans - its all species ;)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: well u gotta wonder since some people esp the greedy ones seem to completely lack both feelings and ethics

[13:35] herman Bergson: We'll do that in the next lecture Merlin ^_^

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): survival depends partially on co-operation - the strongest groups survive.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: another example is psychopaths that have characteristics that unfortunately make them suited as directors etc

[13:36] herman Bergson: I get the impression you all got a clear idea now about where we stand in the debate

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thats why the boss is often an arse

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: i guess

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Lol Bejita

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: my boss is at least great and he can do barbecue like amazing

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, I read a book about societal collapse you might find interesting

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: another YUMMY!

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): it's by Jared Diamond.

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh - I like him.

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): whats it called velvet?

[13:37] herman Bergson: What is that about Velvet?

[[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): It's called "Collapse:How Societies choose to fail or succeed"

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): ty. ill check it out.

[13:38] herman Bergson: The Rise and Fall of Rome ^_^

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): Rome is in the book

[13:38] herman Bergson: Why did that happen....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): I read "Guns, germs and steel" a while ago ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes...an interesting question...

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, that's on my list of books to read

[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok....

[13:39] herman Bergson: plenty of reading to do till next Tuesday then ^_^

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): (Laughing out Loud) herman.

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no time

[13:39] herman Bergson: don't waist your time in SL....read ^_^

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hahahaha

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have plenty of time till next tuesday:)

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): We come to school here

[13:40] Vadaman: Hihi

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie..I do a lot of reading for you indeed :-))

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does a book of Stepehn King count too?

[13:40] herman Bergson: saves you a lot of time :-)

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hmmm NO lol

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): Beertje, King is always a good choice!

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): besides - where else do you get to discuss these ideas

[13:41] herman Bergson: Not quite a philosopher Beertje ^_^

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles:))))

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): we can argue that point, Herman

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: the philosophy of horror maybe?

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): oooooh. I like it.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: now THAT could be interesting subject

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes…it is interesting but not our subject at the moment

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe we take this one first

[13:42] herman Bergson: But you may discuss it of course after class...

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman you keep us on topic so well.

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: So thnak you all agian for your participacion...^_^

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...:-))

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): applause.....

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): thank you!

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: another interesting event

[13:43] Vadaman: Thank you for the lecture Herman.

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel Herman:)

[13:43] herman Bergson: My pleasure Vadaman