THE PHILOSOPHY CLASS

Tuesday, January 15, 2013

448: The Art Not to be an Egoist 13

This is lecture 13 in 2013 of our Project "The Art of Not to be an Egoist". So Welcome in 2013 together with me and I'll promise to do my best for you to make is a fruitful philosophical year.

That I take you to the heart of the contemporary questions and debates in philosophy is again proven by a short interview in my newspaper this morning.

It is about everything that is the hot issue here since my lecture 266 "The Mystery of the Brain introduced" in September 2010. Now check this out…….

Researchers at the Free University of Amsterdam (protestant roots) go study the frontiers of science. Initiator professor René van Woudenberg (55) denounces the idea that science is the only way to acquire knowledge.

For organizing debates and attract researchers the Professor of Philosophy receives 2.4 million of the Templeton World Charity Foundation. This foundation means that there should be room for spirituality in science.

When you check Wikipedia on this Foundation you find, among other things this:

Broadly, controversial aspects of the Templeton Foundation fall into three categories.

1.The Foundation is seen by some as having a conservative bias.

2. The Foundation receives criticism from some members in the scientific community who are concerned with its linking of scientific and religious questions.

3. The Foundation stands accused of using its financial clout to encourage researchers and reporters to produce material favorable to its position linking religion to science etc.

Now the interview…..

QUESTION: You think that many scientists to interfere in areas where they have no knowledge of, such as philosophy and religion. Can you give an example?

ANSWER: "Take the book of brain scientists as Dick Swaab and Victor Lamme. Both conclude on the basis of experiments that free will does not exist.

In one such experiment, by Benjamin Libet, a subject gets electrodes on his head and he must move his finger at a chosen time.

The researchers note that brain activity was there already before the subject indicated that he was aware that he wanted to move his finger.

Ergo: the free will does not exist. This conclusion goes too far. The subject was asked to move his finger any moment within the next minute.

That instruction was already stored in his brains, so it's a bad experiment to test free wil. "

QUESTION: According to some evolutionary psychologists morality is an illusion generated by our genes. What we find good and bad, would depend entirely on what is important to the survival of the species.

ANSWER: "That I dare to doubt. That we disapprove of murder and theft, has survival benefits for survival of the group.

But when I lived in America, I read as a newspaper article about a fertility doctor. The man had women with fertility problems secretly inseminated with his own sperm.

Evolutionary you would say he is happy, happy women, what's the problem? Yet everyone feels that this is reprehensible behavior.

That moral judgment is beyond evolutionary psychology and there is more wisdom to get for example the philosophy or religion here. "

QUESTION: Now the word religion is dropped: are you religious?

ANSWER: "I try to live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ."

QUESTION: That does not answer the question.

ANSWER: "Yes, I believe in God."

QUESTION: How do you know that God exists?

ANSWER: "That knowledge is not of the same order as the proof that the square root of 2 is not a fracture. Yet there is reliable knowledge of non-scientific nature.

For instance, I'm sure my name is René van Woudenberg and that every bone in my body is intact. This proves that valuable knowledge can exist without scientific research is needed.

Maybe that knowledge of God is also an example of this.

END ANSWER

For those who have learnt about my philosophical views since lecture 001 will understand, that this last answer is 100% contrary to my philosophical views and 100% in line with the Templeton ideology.

The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well..we'll wait for Catt's return then :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: AT least the interview shows that there is a kind of opposition (to my iseas)

[13:30] herman Bergson: ideas

[13:31] herman Bergson: You are allstill listening to the jingle bells?

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i need to hear more about this subject before I can give a comment I suppose

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think that the religious intervention in science is absurd.

[13:33] herman Bergson: So you take especially the last answer of this professor for granted?

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:33] herman Bergson: I mean ..that a professor in philosophy dares to say a thing like that...:-)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not all professors in phiosophy dare to say that..you do..

[13:34] herman Bergson: Just this single statement : "This proves that valuable knowledge can exist without scientific research is needed."

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): well you're a thinking philosopher ....

[13:35] herman Bergson: ok..then start thinking....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: that means science

[13:35] herman Bergson: he talks about VALUABLE knowledge....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: to be sure u need a proof of some sort

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: or similar

[13:35] herman Bergson: what does he mean by VALUABLE???

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): useful in some way

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): so a knowledge of a good well is useful

[13:35] herman Bergson: is there a kind of knowledge that is more valuable than scientific knowledge...

[13:36] herman Bergson: so what knowledge is it?

[13:36] herman Bergson: What is the extra value?

[13:36] herman Bergson: how do you get that knowledge

[13:36] Fred123 Aiten: how do you know its a good well

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): knowledge of self...

[13:36] herman Bergson: And valuable to what purpose?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:37] Catt entered chat range (17.65 m).

[13:37] herman Bergson: when asked for examples he came with Cartesian observations...

[13:37] herman Bergson: "I know what my name is...I know what the conditions of my bones is..."

[13:38] herman Bergson: and indeed...epistemologically there is a difference between the "I " statements and third person scientific statements...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: thats interesting

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: how do you know what the condition of your bones is. You can only think you know without science

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Fred

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well Fred..that was what I was thinking too,....

[13:39] herman Bergson: only scientific investigation can show that you dont suffer of ostheoperosis...or artritis

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: u have to see it

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:40] herman Bergson: My point is that we are analyzing human nature at the moment....

[13:40] herman Bergson: we ask "What is human nature"

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: to prove it

[13:41] herman Bergson: or more popular said...Are we born egoists or are we born altruists

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: I use to say if a scientist can prove that god exists and show true information about it then i belive in god

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: not before

[13:41] herman Bergson: And to answer that question we need next to philosophical answers scientific observations

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts,until i see one i dont believe in them

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and i havent seen any ghost so far what i know

[13:42] Catt (catt.gable): Ah the Doubting Thomas School of Thought, smiles

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....that would be nice....

[13:42] herman Bergson: But what would the proof of this existence of god change this world as it is...(tho it is said it is his creation)

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): But Bejita - there are so many on tv :)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: In fact...the existence of a god is completely irrelevant to how our lives develop....

[13:43] herman Bergson: unless you believe that this existence also allows a possibility of interfering with the facts of life as they are...

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Religion determines a lot of how we develop - most wars have been over god.

[13:44] herman Bergson: That leads to a lot of questions....

[13:44] herman Bergson: No Debbie ..all wars were about dominance...and control

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yje arabic world is a perfect example...

[13:45] herman Bergson: masses are manipulated to fight for "the cause"

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes, and the church was used to mobilize the people....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes... and god is used a lot.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which cause?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: they use religion to deprive all women of their rights in saudi arabia for ex

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: really sad

[13:46] herman Bergson: In a sauce of Allah Acbar...of course...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and also all these wars

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): cause

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: terrible

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): chatlag....

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): but the religeons exist even though god doesn't?

[13:47] herman Bergson: no..to get back to the believe of an existing and interfering god in our world...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Would really be a big problem....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:47] herman Bergson: He would get involved in politics :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why would we go back ?

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the use?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Because this professor claims the existence of nonscientific valuable knowledge Beertje

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: also there are so many different gods but each religion only believe thant one single god exist

[13:49] herman Bergson: and the knowledge of the existence of god is one of its items

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yet no one have ever seen it

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm now chat lag is bad

[13:49] herman Bergson: YEs Bejiita....:-)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Who is the real god?

[13:50] Catt (catt.gable): Supposedly Moses saw God

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes always asked me that too

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we all are..

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I am!

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yay.... I've been saved ;)

[13:51] herman Bergson: A lot have seen god Catt...at least that is what they say

[13:51] Catt (catt.gable): Supposedly Moses saw God or parts of him which turned his hair white etc.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my hair turns white of my puber children...

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): god exists in our minds.

[13:51] Catt (catt.gable): well, his is significant in that it happened while he was receiving the 10 commandments which have impacted much of the world.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:51] herman Bergson: My hair turned white years ago....

[13:52] Catt (catt.gable): lag

[13:53] herman Bergson: But the ten commandments aren't unique for the Jewish belief....you find them in all kinds of ways in many cultures

[13:53] Catt (catt.gable): Universal truth is not unique

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: middle east have islam, India Hinduism ect

[13:53] Catt (catt.gable): yes

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: in hinduism they at least have more then one god

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): I only mentioned Moses because of a blanket statement made about no one having seen god

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): and god exists in our collective minds.

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): have

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): Someone (as you say some people) believe they have

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and the word avatar comes from the materialisation f these gods as they are portraited

[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): yes Bejiita

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: wich is suiting since our avatars are virtual representations of ut

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: us

[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): yes

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: the word avatar is the hindu gods materializing

[13:56] herman Bergson: oh ..so we are all gods Bejiita?

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaargh chat lag

[13:56] herman Bergson: yes terrible chat lag

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: sort of its the same idea as how these invisible gods are turned into how we see them as shiva ect

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and thats called avatar which then became avatar

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: thats how the term was formed

[13:58] herman Bergson: interesting....

[13:58] herman Bergson: and explains why we are god in our own Second Life

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: virtual 1 and 0 turn into our visible virtual representations of the rl person behind

[13:58] Catt (catt.gable): that hindus have hundreds of god avatars just suggests an effort to identify something that they intuit as greater than all of us

[13:59] herman Bergson: Well we are a bit drifted away from the main idea of this lecture.

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: Definition of AVATAR

: the incarnation of a Hindu deity (as Vishnu)

a : an incarnation in human form

b : an embodiment (as of a concept or philosophy) often in a person

: a variant phase or version of a continuing basic entity

: an electronic image that represents and is manipulated by a computer user (as in a computer game)

[14:00] herman Bergson: That there is opposition to the scientific look at reality originating from religious quarters :-)

[14:00] Debbie Dee entered chat range (4.86 m).

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:01] herman Bergson: The SL weather is very bad today....

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: its laggy for sure server need restart i think

[14:01] Catt (catt.gable): bad today

[14:01] herman Bergson: lots of crashes and lag

[14:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): yep. and my umbrella is at home.....

[14:01] herman Bergson: not only here...

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: some of my messages show only after about 10 mins

[14:02] herman Bergson: heard it form others too

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): The lecture came through muddled :(

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: gets all messed up

[14:02] herman Bergson: Then..let me thank you all for your participation....

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): better go offline then and have a good sleep

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:02] herman Bergson: and let's hope for better conditions on Thursday

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: i got some stuff to think about at least

[14:02] Catt (catt.gable): Thanks Herman, let's try this again when SL is more stable?

[14:02] herman Bergson: Quite so Beertje!

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: and was interesting start

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): night all... and thanks Herman...

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight all:) sweet dreams

[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiita

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

Wednesday, January 2, 2013

447: The Art Not to be an Egoist 12

Probably the most important difference between man and ape is easy to identify: it is the ability of humans to establish norms.

Apes only make the difference accepted and not-accepted. They obviously do not make the distinction between acceptable and non-acceptable.

In short, they do not translate their judgment into a standard, a custom or rule. As far as we know, apes do not derive abstract rules of behavior from their actual behavior.

The ability to universal norms, rules and maxims is an impressive human achievement. We are able to reason from the singular to the universal, the generalization.

But where does that come from? If our feelings, our social intuition guides our actions, why would we then need a reasonable general maxim?

Why imprinted evolution in our minds the ability to formulate abstract norms and abstract value and judge ourselves and others by them? In other words: how in an empire of Willing came Ought into the world?

Where does the Ought come from. Regarding to this question it seems that biologists, psychologists and philosophers are pretty much in agreement.

To be able to play the social chess we play we need the ability to put ourselves in the place of the other. What would the other expect me to do?

Because of this ability it could have helped our ancestors to develop the simple rule: What you don't want to happen to you, don't make it happen to your neighbor either.

From the ability of compassion and the basic sense of unfairness developed a first an unspoken and later verbalized rule.

When you analyze the protection against unfair treatment, you run into feelings like decency, shame and taboo. Feelings which are absolutely necessary in a society to function.

So we could say that our morality developed from our social intuition and later our evolving brain translated this into rules, norms and standards of behavior? Is it really that simple?

At least one question has to answered yet: When we all use the same social intuition, then how can it be that people often act so differently individually? Why don't we all have the same moral reflexes?

When you look at a cultural level you run into the same question. When all people have the same basic feeling of unfairness like the Capuzine monkeys seem to have too, why then are in some cultures women oppressed for centuries?

And where was the intuitive sense of decency and shame in the guards of concentration camps or for instance a prison in Iraq?

Brain damage of the prefrontal lobe leads to immoral and uncontrolled behavior, like we have seen with the famous Phineas Gage from 1848.

But it would be a bridge too far to claim that al our common immoral behavior like cheating, lying, speeding and so on, it the result of brain damage.

Our complex social life is only possible because we have moral standards. But at the same time there is a constant battle going on between our prehistoric social intuition and our ratio, as guardian of norms and standards.

When you and your group are hiding for a bunch of murdering soldiers and a baby starts crying so loud, that it will reveal your hiding place….would you choke the baby? The death of one in exchange for the life of 15 others?

When you think about an answer you might conclude that our intuition or feeling isn't worse than our reason, where social intuition says "NO",while reason may say "YES".

A second point is that our rational judgements are never void of feelings.

And the third point is, that what leads to the final decision, our social intuition or our ratio, is different in every individual person.

Morality is a social tool. It makes our complex way of social life possible. To grasp the whole picture we have to take our thoughts one step further.

Whether social intuition or rational deliberation is at the basis of our action, we will always be asked to JUSTIFY our action, give reasons.

This ability and need to justify our actions may be the essence of our morality. Our next point of interest and investigation.

This is the last lecture before the Holidays. The next lecture will be Tuesday January 8.. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you all ^_^

[13:26] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: Nice Herman .)

[13:26] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): *nice and interesting* Herman

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:26] Jane Fossett: woo, thank you

[13:26] Qwark Allen: very nice

[13:26] Qwark Allen: still digesting it

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree it wasn't easy today....

[13:27] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thank you, herman :)

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that baby question is not an old one it is renewed lately

[13:27] herman Bergson: But the main point you should keep in mind it the idea of justification....

[13:27] Rik (diedo.loopen): ty herman

[13:28] herman Bergson: It was originaly invented by Jonathan Greene....harvard prof..

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i was listening to a syrian child talk to an interviewer

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the other day

[13:29] herman Bergson: and it demonstrates clearly how we respond....intuitively or rationally

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something you said near the end Herman reminds me that I previously had an opinion about the chimps in the video

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: a thing i came to think about what u said before

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is still going on

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That they were showing consideration for others in order to gain acceptance in their group

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i read an article in the news about why hitler could make an whole army of murderers, it seems that they were not blindly following orders as they have thought

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but actually was made to believe that the jews were like cockroaches and that it was right thing to make them suffer

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a bit worrying

[13:30] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...and I'll come to that in next lectures....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: meaning that these terrible acts will always exist he ended the article with

[13:30] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look at israel and gaza

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: however don't know about the expertise of the writer of the article

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but made me think a bit

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well bejiita..he has some point...

[13:31] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): it has been always a method of the ruling party to discriminate a minority by comparing them with animals, so it had been easier for their soldiers to attack and kill them

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i really hope it isn't the case that u can just reprogram someone to hate

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:31] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): not only for the soldiers

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Oceana...

[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): for the people also

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Bejita... it did look a bit like they could programme people then

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: also why are all women without rights in saudi arabia

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: also terrible

[13:32] Rik (diedo.loopen): maybe there is a god

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is the We or They issue...

[13:32] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that here too

[13:32] Jane Fossett: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:32] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: But we need a New Year for that ^_^

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): maybe it s not question yes or no

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): yes right

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think the Us and Them issue could get a lot worse with increasing population

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): we can consider it

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: indeed this is very tricky subject

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: makes the head spinning sometimes hehe

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but very interesting stuff that make u really think

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): and pray for our loves ones

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...think of the present financial crisis.....

[13:34] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): it is a worldwide game about might

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes Herman?

[13:34] herman Bergson: the increasing gap between the rich and poor in this world....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Ready for an US or Them battle if this continues

[13:34] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): there is no real financial crisis, it is man made

[13:35] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the financial leaders always win

[13:35] herman Bergson: Oh true Alegra...absolutely true...

[13:35] Rik (diedo.loopen): i think it always been this way about very rich and poor people

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well you could guess who would win such a battle

[13:35] herman Bergson: In fact there is no crisis at all...it is just the way it is...

[13:35] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): yes, there´s is no outside of the imperium as one of the recent philosopher put it, all the markets are so interlinked, that it will come to something like a big bubble to explode one day ...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the ones with the most money always seem to win

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not fair

[13:36] herman Bergson: Look at history Merlin...lots of kings were decapitated

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look what they do withe the money to save a country ... they are saving banks

[13:36] Rik (diedo.loopen): than we need to define what a crisis is

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:36] herman Bergson: exactly Rik..^_^

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): My thoughts were as Bejiita, but 'yeah' also to Hermans point

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is the whole point!

[13:36] Jane Fossett: There are many levels of social interaction, many circumstances where 'us' and 'them' change. I think the conflict between those group interactions likely fuels in part the change in ethical paradigms.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: feeding their own pockets instead of make the country work

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): right

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: those bankers

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): i can imagine some relay have a crisis losing jobs and not able to take their family

[13:37] herman Bergson: oops ..that was a difficult one Jane...:-)

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): really

[13:37] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): sorry for my english i tend to type to fast sometimes

[13:37] herman Bergson: could you rephrase it a bit?

[13:37] Jane Fossett: I'll rephrase one part of my statement

[13:37] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): if ordinary citizens has to "support" their banks and get no interests for not risky savings, then something is entirely wrong with the market... this system increases the decay of the middle class

[13:38] herman Bergson: Dont worry Rik..we all understand typonees here

[13:38] Jane Fossett: conflict drives culture

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: indeed the people give but give nothing back

[13:38] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the middle class has to pay all at least

[13:38] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): and the gap will become bigger

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: same with insurance companies paying high fees and then they make up a reason to not give u anything when an accident or similar happens

[13:38] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): the middle class is fading away ...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: u give but get nothing back

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Oceana...that is a problem...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats stealing i d say

[13:39] Jane Fossett: 'middle class' is ambiguous, its a group tag I think

[13:39] herman Bergson: The rise of culture and prosperity occurred when a middle class grew in a society..

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I agree.. it is a kind of no-mans land

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:40] herman Bergson: bridging the gap between poor and rich...

[13:40] Jane Fossett: we split people up into groups...

[13:40] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): as bourdieu put it, how can we survive with our cultural capital... if the matrix conditions are changing...

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The middle class is the only one who finds raising children expensive

[13:40] Rik (diedo.loopen): i like the text ........nothing new under the sun ,maybe we need to look at it from a different way

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes maybe

[13:41] herman Bergson: well...to get back to our point of focus....

[13:41] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): of course nothing new, in former times the kings now the bankers

[13:41] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: what we are studying here is the question after Human NAture...

[13:42] herman Bergson: So far we see a distinction between social intuition and rational judgement....

[13:42] herman Bergson: but the new issue now is....

[13:43] herman Bergson: that whether social intuition or rational deliberation guide our moral behavior...

[13:43] herman Bergson: we still have to JUSTIFY our actions.....

[13:43] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): only the conditions that lead to justification are very personally

[13:43] herman Bergson: That will be our concern for the new year...

[13:44] Jane Fossett: :-) and criteria for justification is another whole ball of wax.

[13:44] herman Bergson: That Alegra is the big question....

[13:44] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:44] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): is your question more related to the old kantian question, how should we act?

[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane!

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we always have the questions :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: But the demand of justification of moral behavior transcends social intuition or rational deliberation

[13:45] herman Bergson: at least at an individual level

[13:45] herman Bergson: The justification is some kind of public issue

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like you see today with all these greedy bankers....

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): isn't that why we have laws?

[13:46] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hahaha yes

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:46] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): I believe in certain moral standards to make life bearable for a great amount of people

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and a justice system?

[13:46] herman Bergson: Oh yes Oceana.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: that is what justification implies

[13:46] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): :)

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: i use to think, how can these bankers sleep well at night with no shame

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): to do it for a great amount of people who may not agree

[13:47] herman Bergson: For instance a Declaration of Human Rights

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on ratio

[13:47] Jane Fossett: one issue is whether that 'demand' is internal or external... I think much cultural evolution is fueled by conflict and the need to change.

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't know that word 'ratio' in this sense

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): individually we may never agree on something

[13:47] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): perhaps they old the use strategies of ignoring the suffering and poverty of a lot of people...

[13:48] herman Bergson: You are pretty conflict loving Jane ^_^

[13:48] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): old=use

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so we create laws to cover that

[13:48] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): badly that law often is adapted to the wrong minority

[13:48] Jane Fossett: haha just practical

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....Law is almost transcendental in this respect

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:49] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): but, to what kind of group does this laws apply.... are they for everyone... or are there for the people who are ruling a country and can get away with murder

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol

[13:49] Jane Fossett: grin

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): should be for everyone

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: but sometimes u wonder indeed

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): like the individual bankers who were in charge of the mess

[13:49] Qwark Allen: you should see what is happening in portugal then

[13:49] Jane Fossett: 'ethics' are in context to the group.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Oceana....we don't need to call names here

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm there is news in Britain just now about that very thing... the murder of an Irishman

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and should be prosecuted

[13:50] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look at regulation in copyright or somethings else .. ACTA

[13:50] Qwark Allen: all politicians at parlement have parlementary immunity

[13:50] Qwark Allen: its worst then in the time of monarchy there, when only the king has immunity

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark…Berlusconi is running for is like a rabbit

[13:50] Qwark Allen: haahha

[13:51] Qwark Allen: he is italian

[13:51] Qwark Allen: its kind of the same

[13:51] herman Bergson: twisted as spagetti

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:51] Jane Fossett: In the US, a very large number of congressmen became millionaires after they were elected. I guess that was a reward for their 'ethics.'

[13:51] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i dont get how that swine can continue, now Berlu is soon back on the throne again even he have done so many nasty thing

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: he should be in jail by long

[13:52] herman Bergson: Weird observation Jane...

[13:52] Jane Fossett: haha

[13:52] Qwark Allen: tortelini you ment :-)))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Does congress pay that well?

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hahahah

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nono

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:52] Jane Fossett: No sill :-)

[13:52] Jane Fossett: y

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they go speak

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: lol that ill start to cal him Berlusconi

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and get money

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: Tortelini

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lots !!!

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): well, the common trust into the political caste seems to fail - so to what authority can we put trust in

[13:52] Qwark Allen: heheheh bejita

[13:52] herman Bergson: Wow...gonna apply for that job too....

[13:53] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): lol herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: Just look at all those Lindens in the new year !!!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: you have to learn how to be a good corrupt then hermann

[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:53] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::

[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] Jane Fossett: woo!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: thank you :-)))

[13:53] herman Bergson: This was the last lecture of 2012..

[13:53] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thank you for a great class, herman :)

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hahaha herman as new lobbyist for linden

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: but it is same with politicians here, even if they get fired even after being a very short while they still get millions in bonuses for years

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh no

[13:54] herman Bergson: in 2013 we may celebrate my 500th Lecture!!!!

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): wow

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ahha

[13:54] herman Bergson: so Qwark...

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): congrats

[13:54] Qwark Allen: we need to make a partyy that day

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you for all the wonderful lectures this year Herman!

[13:54] herman Bergson: Begin thinking about a big party...^_^

[13:54] Rik (diedo.loopen): ty herman

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): like graduation ?

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): party?! oh yes for sure

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): never happens

[13:54] Rik (diedo.loopen): gemma see u soon fishing

[13:55] herman Bergson: It was a great pleasure again...

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nice to see you

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in class

[13:55] Qwark Allen: was great lectures this year for sure

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: so its an endless misery spiral for these people

[13:55] herman Bergson: I thank you all and hope to see you in good health in January again

Wednesday, December 12, 2012

446: The Art Not to be an Egoist 11

The picture I am drawing of the nature of man and the origins of morality leads to the questing: who makes the decisions in moral matters? Our feeling or our reason.

In his "Treatise of Human Nature" (1739) the Scottish philosopher David Hume comes to two interesting observations.

The first one is that not reason or ratio controls man, but his feelings and emotions. The second is when feelings and emotions are the cause of our actions and not our rational deliberation, then there can be no free will.

Whatever I decide in a moral situation, I always am motivated by the strongest feeling of emotion. This is the winner and our reason is just the one who tells us afterwards, why we decided this or that.

Hume's message is clear: Our moral decisions are not the results of rational deliberation, but they are based on our intuition.

The idea that our morality is intuitive and thus largely beyond our reason, is currently more popular than it ever was.

For two hundred years these ideas enjoyed mostly a modest shadowy existence in philosophy. Today, however, it is as if it were the philosophical fashion of our time.

We'll not discuss the problem of the Free Will now, tho it has become a hot issue these days. For now we'll focus on the question whether our morality is based on and driven by intuition or reason.

You can observe this in daily life. Rational arguments are often qualified as cold. We must open up for feelings and emotions. Who doesn't know the painful effect of the reproach "Oh my, you are so rational".

When you wonder what to decide, your friend could say to you"When it feels good, then it is the right decision." This even brought us the concept of Emotional Intelligence.

Many neuroscientists are trying to demonstrate on the computer screen, that Hume was absolutely right: The dark pulse of our feelings and emotions lights up first before the rational part of the brain lights up.

Jonathan Haidt (born 1963) is a professor at New York University Stern School of Business.His research focuses on the psychological bases of morality across different cultures and political ideologies.

According to his view, moral judgments are mostly the products of quick, intuitive evaluations of scenarios with certain content.

Moral reasoning is usually a largely post hoc phenomenon. People are, as Haidt says, "intuitive lawyers" whose reasoning usually seeks to vindicate the person's own intuition rather than openly assess the case from an impartial point of view.

In a previous lecture I said that there seems to be a relation between how you see the nature of man and your political ideology.

Haidt reasons more or less also along those lines, it seems. He showed that we organize our moral values according to our ideology.

It is not so that our ideological beliefs are the source of our moral standards. Rational arguments for them, for what is right or wrong, valuable of worthless, fair or unfair, just come afterwards.

But how far does our intuition go?Did Hume actually had it right, when he said that in moral actions always and only the strongest feeling is the decisive factor?

And it is true that, as Haidt, many neuroscientists and some psychologists believe that the brain only works as an advertising department that justifies the decisions of feeling afterwards?

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:19] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm Interesting stuff tonight

[13:20] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:20] Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting thanks Prof ;)

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: so basically what we think is right is just based on how we feel?

[13:20] herman Bergson: We're not done Debbie..still lots of questions to be answered ^_^

[13:20] herman Bergson: That Bejiita is the question....

[13:21] herman Bergson: The deeper arguments are related to evolutionary biology....

[13:21] herman Bergson: for instance...

[13:21] Chu Ann (hermine): mostly yes#cos ppl are not able to control their feelimgs

[13:21] Debbie Dee (framdor): so where does training come in? surely the commandments are taught, and reasonably observed?

[13:21] herman Bergson: take a response based on fear...

[13:21] Chu Ann (hermine): free will is really a myth for most people^^

[13:22] Chu Ann (hermine): it is very hard to be objective

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Chu....He already said so....

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: its a tricky subject

[13:22] herman Bergson: And training Debbie....yes...that is the next point to look into

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I like to see the references to animals. I think such considerations can answer a lot

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: intuitive decisions go faster than rational decisions, i guess that was important for mankind to survive

[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): yes training of your feelings

[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): well, the control of these feelings

[13:23] Midi Aeon: Where do goals fit into the moral decision process?

[13:23] Kime Babenco: So our behaviour is more according to emotional impulses than logical thinking ?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy that is the most heard argument to explain the operating of the different parts of the brain

[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): yes kime

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: basically only by control of our feelings we can get free will if i understand everything right

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Kime…that is the debate of today in philosophy

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That seems to make sense Bejii

[13:24] herman Bergson: Very clever Bejiita...

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): LIke budhism teaches?

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think it gets a lot of training to get control over our feelings

[13:25] herman Bergson: Like Hume said....we can follow the emotion driven response and we can decide not to do so

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): true beertje not that easy^^^

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): and it is important to know yourself

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..very true

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): how u act

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): and why

[13:25] herman Bergson: You can add to that the idea of an ethics of Virtue...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ssems logical

[13:26] herman Bergson: Like Aristotle proposed....and which is part of christian philosophy

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am thinking also about near-reflex actions due to intense training

[13:26] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:27] herman Bergson: A lot of arguments that our morality is based on our intuition...

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Merlins point is good... moral values are corrupted by training - look at a soldier

[13:27] herman Bergson: We have come to this point often here...

[13:28] Chu Ann (hermine): and?

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ty Deb, but good things too perhaps

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): perhaps ;)

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well that we THINK we are rational beings and in fact show that we arent...

[13:28] Chu Ann (hermine): i do not think that^^^

[13:29] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: Good for you hemine :-)

[13:29] Chu Ann (hermine): mh dunno if this is good

[13:29] Chu Ann (hermine): that keeps u thinking too much

[13:29] herman Bergson: The training of the soldier is based on fear....and the will to survive

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, we think a lot, even if we are irrational sometimes ;)

[13:30] Chu Ann (hermine): ^^

[13:30] Kime Babenco: It's maybe to the point, but the climate coneferences. Every politician knows what has to be done, but not one knows how to get re-elected after done that... Intuition ?

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is what Descartes said...

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, to some extent. But what of special forces people? I've met a few killers in my time....

[13:30] herman Bergson: you can do what you want..but you cant escape tthinking ^_^

[13:31] Chu Ann (hermine): lol thats good herman

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Indeed

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: i already met people who obviously don't think ^-^

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok

[13:31] Chu Ann (hermine): rofl lizzy me too

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: sometimes u wonder if people think indeed

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): define "rational being" in this context - is it enough to think?

[13:32] herman Bergson: lol

[13:32] herman Bergson: hold on ..this isnt' philosophy

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Language?

[13:32] herman Bergson: unfortunately all people think..also the stupid ones ^_^

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: but our thoughts are also influenced by intuition

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): so if they are stupid - and think - are they irrational?

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes LIzzy.....

[13:33] Chu Ann (hermine): but they think different things

[13:33] herman Bergson: In moral issues the question is...

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the diffinition of intuition?

[13:33] Chu Ann (hermine): and no one is stupid

[13:33] herman Bergson: is the ratio fighting with feeling or is feeling fighting with ratio :-)

[13:34] Chu Ann (hermine): everyone knows something in the world

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): I feel the answer to that Beertje...

[13:34] Chu Ann (hermine): we r all one

[13:34] herman Bergson: The definition of intuition....

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think we all feel, think and try to do the best we can

[13:34] herman Bergson: I would say....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: one scary example i read before about the nazis what that they didnt do all that killing cause of blindly following orders, Hitler had brainwashed then so they actually thought it was right to kill and cause suffering

[13:35] herman Bergson: an unreasoned primary response to a situation based on primary emotional reflexes…

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: they bellieved it was actually the right to do

[13:35] Chu Ann (hermine): yes as the americans with the indians^^

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you ㋡

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): I saw that in South AFrica before 1994. Inhuman actions, carried out with vigor.

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: that doesn't excuse it Bejiita

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry Herman but I am uneasy with that definitiion

[13:36] Midi Aeon: I think that your goals determine if feelings and rationality fight or reinforce each other.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: i mean how can u think that is ever right to kill someone

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: we are all the same

[13:36] herman Bergson: One moment...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: however some people seem to have lost their minds for sure

[13:36] herman Bergson: Merlin....you have the floor

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes bejita!!!

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): omg....

[13:37] Chu Ann (hermine): go merlin go^^

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] herman Bergson: I don't want to have you feeling uneasy with a definition Merlin ^_^

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am not sure now, but it was the word 'Response' that bothered me. Perhaps I was thinking you meant action

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): and the class lapsed into silence... you could hear a pin drop...

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:38] Chu Ann (hermine): ^

[13:38] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:39] herman Bergson: I have given a series of lectures on basic emotions....like fear and love and anxiety etc...

[13:39] herman Bergson: which reside in a part of the brain that is evolutionary prior to the prefrontal lobe....The extra we have over the chimps for instance.

[13:39] herman Bergson: and where our ratio resides

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well yeah, animals act on instinct much more than reason

[13:40] herman Bergson: So what we cll intuition refers to that part of the brain...

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:41] herman Bergson: Exactly Merlin .animals not even take the trouble to reason :-)

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) nods

[13:41] Chu Ann (hermine): but it is the feeling that comes without too much thinking about it

[13:41] herman Bergson: That is typically human....

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): So Intuition is unreasoned, but can be trained, by experience?

[13:41] Chu Ann (hermine): and too much thinking is sometimes - or often - not the best to do

[13:41] herman Bergson: and here I'll already give you one thing to think about fo Thursday....

[13:42] Chu Ann (hermine): ok

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay

[13:42] herman Bergson: On the one hand we seem to say that morality is intuitive....

[13:42] herman Bergson: But there is more...

[13:43] herman Bergson: whether we feel good about something or not....there also is the need to justify our actions.

[13:43] herman Bergson: What does justification mean and imply....

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh what a juicy subject....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Maybe we'll find our next Thursday ^_^

[13:44] Chu Ann (hermine): i hope to have time to come on thursday

[13:44] Kime Babenco: OK, maybe till then

[13:44] herman Bergson: Oh that reminds me....Debbie...

[13:44] Kime Babenco: Thanks and bye for now....

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes?

[13:44] herman Bergson: You are not from Brazil but South Africa...sorry ^_^

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): np herman ;)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:44] Kime Babenco: I am from Brasil

[13:44] herman Bergson: Kime is from Brasil :-)

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): ty for another intereting sl evening

[13:45] Kime Babenco: ;-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe this was great for sure

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all...

[13:45] Kime Babenco: BYe everyone

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: \o/

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo!

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: / \

[13:45] Chu Ann (hermine): thank u herman

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): ✫¸¸.·✿.¸★♥♡ღ❦º° էհɑղҟ վօմ :) °º❦ღ♡♥★¸.✿·.¸¸✫

[13:45] Chu Ann (hermine): hope to see u all on thursday

[13:45] herman Bergson: You are always welcome Hermine

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye friends xxx

Tuesday, December 11, 2012

445: The Art Not to be an Egoist 10