450: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 15

At the previous lecture Velvet suggested to have a closer look at Jean Piaget (1896 - 1980) and indeed  in the context of our project this makes sense.

Piaget, developmental psychologist and philosopher, is in the first place famous because of his research on the development of the cognitive capabilities of children.

Like Hoffman, who I mentioned in my previous lecture, he describes different stages of development.

Put in a simplified way he asked the question, where does logical thinking comes from? Likewise he could have asked 

"Where does morality come from", where of course the quintessence is…is it from Nature or from Nurture?

Piaget believed in two basic principles relating to moral education: that children develop moral ideas in stages and that children create their conceptions of the world. 

According to Piaget, the child is someone who constructs his own moral world view, who forms ideas about right and wrong, and fair and unfair, 

that are not the direct product of adult teaching and that are often maintained in the face of adult wishes to the contrary. Piaget believed that children made moral judgments based on their own observations of the world.

Piaget's theory of morality was radical when his book The Moral Judgment of the Child was published in 1932 for two reasons: 

his use of philosophical criteria to define morality (as universalizable, generalizable, and obligatory) and his rejection of equating cultural norms with moral norms. 

Piaget, drawing on Kantian theory, proposed that morality developed out of peer interaction and that it was autonomous from authority mandates.

The basic assumption is that a child in accordance with the growth of the brain develops the abilities to empathy and a sense of fairness, based on the increasing capabilities of the brain.

You only can grow a plant on a fertile soil. I mean, there has to be a brain precondition. In that we are not alone. Several observations of behavior of primates have shown that they too are capable of sharing and are sensitive for unfairness.

Every culture has a concept of justice and fairness and yet its meaning differs per culture. Yet, like Piaget stated, doesn't this make moral norms simply to cultural norms.

The human capacity for morality is innate. Step by step we are put through a "program", ranging from the imitation through sympathy up to a sense of justice. 

We are exposed to the entire range of powerful formative influences. Strong links, the feeling of security and the knowledge to be understood have a positive effect on our development. 

The interplay between different individual qualities and natural influences of education leads to different forms of characters. 

The ability for compassion and sense of justice are  given in all normal healthy people, their depth and their level, however, are individually different.

But even when we assume, that a sense of morality is an innate quality of human nature, we still see a lot of immoral behavior around.

So, are we in a perpetual battle with ourselves, trying to do good and then having to observe that we do the opposite?

Time to ask ourselves how much selfishness is there in us. Why is it there?

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you....^_^

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): the end? mm later than i realised - sorry

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I didnt understand that bit about doing the opposite

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): tut tut Debbie

[13:23] herman Bergson: Well Merlin....we all mean to do good....and we know that we don't do that all the time...we do bad things...selfish things for instance

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ah ok

[13:23] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): but isn't it necessary for our survival to be selfish sometimes?

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): only joking Debbie ;)

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:24] Mick Nerido: A child who does not learn to trust, may feel unable to empathize with others and therefore not feel connected ...

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): selfish sort of explains itself.. we are self centered in our thoughts often.

[13:24] herman Bergson: I dont know Alegra....

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): he he he he

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): new cackle :)

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Mick...

[13:24] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): I admit I am not fighting with myself in that point

[13:24] herman Bergson: smiles...

[13:25] herman Bergson: You mean you are just selfish Alegra?

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not always Mick..sometimes one can learn to trust..although it takes a very long time

[13:25] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hehe

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i sometimes wonder tho if the ability for compassion and justice are given to all

[13:25] Mick Nerido: We will be selfish if we feel not part of a bigger group...

[13:25] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): I think we have to find a good equilibrium

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): to begin with

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or we must be taught what they are

[13:25] herman Bergson: ABout this survival issue....

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): to begin

[13:26] herman Bergson: you have personal survival and survival of a species...

[13:26] herman Bergson: Those are two different processes....

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah, Bees again

[13:26] herman Bergson: Besides that....

[13:27] herman Bergson: this survival is related to being fitted to your environment....

[13:27] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes

[13:27] herman Bergson: and individual survival related to selfishness is something different....

[13:27] herman Bergson: not the evolutionary issue

[13:27] herman Bergson: But in fact a moral issue

[13:27] Mick Nerido: The "I" and the "We" issue

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i am looking at all the poeple in refuge camps

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in syria right now

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): personal survivial uses adrenaline, group survival is shared and more selfless?

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): one steals blankets and pillows from another

[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't know how they can stand such a life Gemma...

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): me either

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): They did not pick it.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Here is the survival issue again.....

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): do the depth of compassions is so difficult to see

[13:29] Mick Nerido: sorry have to log off thanks all

[13:29] herman Bergson: Stealing blankets is a selfish act.....

[13:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): does group survival really exist?

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nicl

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): bye Mick

[13:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): bye Mick

[13:29] herman Bergson: I would say YEs Alegra...

[13:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): or is group survival an educational part?

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Alegra I think so too

[13:30] herman Bergson: Evolutionary it has been a biological matter, I would say

[13:30] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hm

[13:30] herman Bergson: Not a consciously chosen act

[13:30] herman Bergson: the organism interacts with its environment....

[13:31] herman Bergson: The environment is changing....

[13:31] herman Bergson: the most fitted to the new environment survive....

[13:31] herman Bergson: this is possible because it is about a group

[13:31] herman Bergson: variations in a group

[13:31] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes ok

[13:32] herman Bergson: But in fact it is an evolution without any direction...

[13:32] herman Bergson: We are the only organisms who are capable of thinking in longterm goals

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): some group actions really help survival - like building houses that last.

[13:33] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): so we can influence the process

[13:33] herman Bergson: That is indeed the interesting point Alegra....

[13:33] herman Bergson: we are a result of a pointless evolution...

[13:33] herman Bergson: we just happened to come into being as homo sapiens...

[13:34] herman Bergson: But because of that we can interfere with evolution...

[13:34] herman Bergson: Simple example....

[13:34] herman Bergson: we keep handicapped people alive...

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): so now we will effect our own evolution.

[13:34] herman Bergson: We support the less smart ones in our society to help them

[13:35] herman Bergson: I think indeed that this is more than blind evolution....

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): we genetically engineer our foods

[13:35] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes, the pure nature wouldn't do that

[13:35] herman Bergson: it is morality....

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): this is scary stuff of course .... touches Eugenics

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): and we use drugs to cure and enhance...

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...it is exactly our moral sense that opposes such ideas

[13:36] herman Bergson: MAybe our basic sense of fairness

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): but... as individuals , we still face death, and sometimes lose a sense of fairness.

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): well many animals are flawed and this might be a flaw of our own

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): like stealing blankets?

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its easier to be fair if you aren't threatened.

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): anyway, as I keep saying we have only a few 100 years so it doens matter about our evolution

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): question is was it just self survival to do it

[13:38] herman Bergson: That is the point of morality Debbue....

[13:38] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): and easy to judge with a full stomache

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why do a lot of people steel from us in a world without fear?

[13:38] herman Bergson: To stay fair in all situations...

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that has nothing to do with suvival

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): some people are poor and hungry, and fear guns and bombs.

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): others are greedy ;)

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as a species we still have a long way to go

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes gemma

[13:39] herman Bergson: YEs Beertje...good question...why are there criminals in our Western society...

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..and a lot too

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no need to steel to survive in our world

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): good question.

[13:39] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Gemma, James Lovelock thinks that mankind will survive in the long term, but not as we are now

[13:40] herman Bergson: no need for a 10 million bones either when you earn 3 million a year

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Maybe it is to do with being scared of not having enough? of rejection because you don't have an i-phone?

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or just because the CAN steel

[13:41] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): I have no i-phone btw, giggles

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either Alegra:)

[13:41] herman Bergson: There is one interesting psychological observation about people you belong to the very rich...or become very rich....

[13:41] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): *lol*

[13:41] herman Bergson: there sense of empathy declines

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..and why? does it decline?

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well it has to because if it didnt they would not get rich...

[13:42] herman Bergson: One explanation is...that when you are very rich ...

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): or stay rich at least

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): They also often become isolated.

[13:42] herman Bergson: whatever you wish..people do it for you or you can buy it....

[13:43] herman Bergson: You don't need to think about how others feel or think about it

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): merlin - good point

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm..glad I'm not rich:)

[13:43] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): being rich destroys morality and empathy?

[13:43] herman Bergson: That is a strong statement Alegra....

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes - in some cases.

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think it is a question

[13:44] herman Bergson: but it is a fact that hardly any banker who was responsible for the crisis they caused has said that he felt guilty and sorry

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes - in some cases. its the answer

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think those who suddenly become rich are different from those who inherit

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I dont think it is quite what Alegra says

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If they do not lose their empathy they will lose thier money

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Merlin, unless the inflow is greater than the outflow of wealth..

[13:45] herman Bergson: Because they would give it all to charity Merlin ?

[13:45] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hahaha

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Herman, put simply

[13:45] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): they do it to save money at least

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well..I think it is time to investigate how much selfishness there is in us...and why it is there...where it comes form :-)

[13:46] herman Bergson: from

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:47] herman Bergson: Good for another lecture, I would say :-)

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Gemma

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): gets the mirror ready

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): the free market system with advertising makes us all think that consumption is our duty. we measure our successes against the TV. If we cant afford the lear jet, we feel bad.

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): senses a trailer for next week

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:47] herman Bergson: Indeed Debbie...!

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): very true Debbie

[13:47] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): :) Debbie I agree

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): so rich is relative to the media level in your area ....

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh, Television, yes I remember that

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay...

[13:48] herman Bergson: But our economy is based on consuming....

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): get ready of the tv

[13:48] herman Bergson: if we don't consume the system will collapse

[13:48] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is that true Herman?

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): but the resources are limited and we are 7 BN

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): realy true?

[13:48] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the big failure of our economic system

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes they keep talking about Growth being needed

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yet I think.....why does a single person need 30 milloin dollar for his living?

[13:49] herman Bergson: What is the sense of it?

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Constantly trying to rescue the economy through growth....

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am surprised how rich people go on working. e.g. Branson

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Drill Baby Drill. Burn it all up.

[13:49] herman Bergson: It is a drug Merlin.....

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Not the money.....

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol Deb

[13:50] herman Bergson: but the earning of it....making that next big hit...

[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, the power and the success

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): :(( no laughing matter.

[13:50] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): might dominates them at last

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): power for a few, and potential failure for the species.

[13:50] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): like our politicians

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he is afraid that people forget who he is...

[13:51] herman Bergson: Weird idea..the desire to be in the history books :-)

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but for some it's utopia to be in the history books

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes. nearly as weird as owning property.

[13:51] herman Bergson: But some peolpe seem to be motivated by that idea

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i would love to win the lottery

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and try

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes, people still care what happens after they die

[13:52] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): of course, why those stupid guiness things

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): how can I own the earth if i only live for 70 yrs?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Me too GEmma :-)

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why Herman?

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to be rich?

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but i have a long list of people to give money to

[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....that is a weird idea :-)

[13:53] herman Bergson: You do that by creating a dynasty, Debbie

[13:53] herman Bergson: Move your wealth from generation to generation....

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): african tribes lived on land owned by the tribe, and given out by the king.

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): when you died it went back to the tribe

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): fair use I would say

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I remember John Major said he wanted a classless society, but the wanted people to pass on wealth to their kids.

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): It is kind of a moral idea, that because we lived once, the world owes our bones...into the future....

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can't we better pass our love to our kids instead of wealth?

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): which would they rather have ???

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ;-)

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): Definitely Beertje. education, and spend time with them

[13:55] herman Bergson: lol...good question Gemma :-)

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes B. that is coming close to bringing the argument full circle

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): money isn't everything Gemma..i know that

[13:56] herman Bergson: But then Gemma,,,they are victims of our consumerism

[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:56] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): unfortunately it is all

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Ugh I dont like what I said to fly off the top of the screen

[13:56] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): money is all in our society

[13:57] herman Bergson: That is the point Alegra...

[13:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well thanks to the last set of lectures - we know all about the free market economy....

[13:57] herman Bergson: In our society we are not human beings....we are costs....

[13:57] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): right

[13:58] herman Bergson: That is how politicians talk about us...

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): uhuuhhh..beware of the grey wave......

[13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): and corporations...

[13:58] herman Bergson: geting old is a costly enterprise...

[13:58] herman Bergson: we have to discourage that :-)

[13:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Tony Benn objected to rail passengers being called 'customers'

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (not that I'm grey yet)//smiles

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): they see us as slaves that produce more than we cost.

[13:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): I don't see any of you as costs.... BTW ;)

[13:59] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): :-)

[13:59] herman Bergson: Fact is that we are imprisoned by a self chosen economical system

[13:59] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ty Debbie

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the goverment does Debbie

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): lucky I'm just a citizen then...

[14:00] herman Bergson: BTW…Belasting Toegevoegde Waarde in dutch Debbie ^_^

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahhahahah

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:00] herman Bergson: means a kind of taxes :-)

[14:00] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ~+ ah yes ~

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): by the way ... is what i meant.

[14:01] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well you know the English have an expression "Double Dutch"

[14:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Merlin:)

[14:01] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[14:01] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Now I can see why too ;)

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's like a dutch orchestra..

[14:01] herman Bergson: Rememeber vaguely Merlin...what does it mean

[14:01] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It means unintelligible

[14:02] herman Bergson: I know the expression 'going Dutch'

[14:02] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[14:02] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): oh that is something completely different

[14:02] herman Bergson: Let's go Dutch on that Merlin ^_^

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, merlin, there goes dinner out ;)

[14:02] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) smiles

[14:02] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol.

[14:02] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): *lol* funny

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Btw...Belasting Toegevoegde Waarde....it's going late.....

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to go..

[14:03] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...

[14:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it tuesday

[14:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:03] herman Bergson: Time to thank you all for your nice participation....

[14:03] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): bye Beertje

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes me too.... time to go. Pity the lecture was so short.

[14:03] herman Bergson: See you next Tuesday

[14:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): tyvm Herman

[14:03] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ty herman

449: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 14

What interests us here is the question what is the quintessence of human nature. Do we live in a world of greedy egoists, which is a popular belief these day, 

or is the quintessence of human nature not mere self-interest, but more…a capability to go beyond self-interest?

Gradually we develop here the view, that, describing the human being as a by 100% self-interest motivated organism,  is a hard to defend position.

However, this doesn't mean that we have a clear view of the balance between self-interest and altruism in our behavior and by what principles this is controlled.

The human being is the only organism on earth, which is capable of introspection, which means being able to observe and judge itself.

The standards used to judge our behavior and actions are not innate. We have to learn them. But how? At least we can say, that there must be areas in the brain which enables us to learn moral behavior. So maybe something is innate yet.

In the introduction of his book "Empathy and Moral Development" (2000) Martin Hoffman,  emeritus professor of developmental psychology at New York University writes"

"When I tell people my interest is people's consideration for others, they perk up at first but then say something like it must be frustrating to study that because everybody is interested in themselves; who cares about anyone else, except maybe their family? 

But when I say humans could not have survived as a species if everyone cared only about himself, they pause, think about it, and then say something like "You might be right." 

The evolution argument carries weight, as though it were self-evident that hunters and gatherers had to help each other to survive, so humans must have helping genes.

In any case, it is in this end-of-millennium, first-world context of competitive individualism and little caring for others that some of us study presocial moral behavior - 

knowing full well that however much a person cares about others, when the chips are down, the individual thinks of himself first: He or she is not the other. (…)

Philosophy and religion have various answers to the dilemma between egoistic needs and social obligations, and their answers have parallels in contemporary psychological theory. 

One answer, the "doctrine of original sin," which assumes people are born egoistic and acquire a moral sense through socialization, that controls egoism, 

is paralleled in early Freudian and social learning theories that stressed the importance for moral development of reward and punishment by parents, especially giving and withholding affection . 

The diametrically opposed and more interesting "doctrine of innate purity," associated with Rousseau who viewed children as innately good (sensitive to others) but vulnerable to corruption by society, 

has a rough parallel in Piaget' s theory, not that children are innately pure but that their relation to adults produces a heteronomous respect for rules and authority which interferes with moral development. - END QUOTE -

Like Piaget (1896 - 1980)  Hoffman to developed a multi-stage development:  from imitation to empathy and then to compassion. And from the compassion to self-correction to responsibility and finally to concept of fairness.

Next lecture we'll look into this developmental process.

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are those who would say about evolution it is the survival of the fittest

[13:23] Velvet (velvet.braham): gotta read up on this Piaget guy.

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): especial among those who are self centered

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is a common mistake Gemma....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm survival of the fittest ive heard sometimes indeed

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:24] herman Bergson: Fittest means best adapted to the situation....

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not in their minds :_)

[13:25] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): I guess she is pointing to nature selection

[13:25] herman Bergson: and we being social animals.....we kick out the self centered individuals...

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: heheheh

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): would be a lot less people around then

[13:25] herman Bergson: That is no problem...we got plenty ^_^

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:26] herman Bergson: The basic problem we are facing here is the Nature - Nurture problem

[13:26] Mick Nerido: they end up in jail or dead

[13:26] herman Bergson: Or basically the question....

[13:26] herman Bergson: is a human being born with a moral sense

[13:27] herman Bergson: and if so..in what way....

[13:27] herman Bergson: Hoffman emphasizes EMPATHY....

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, we all hate loneliness.

[13:27] herman Bergson: that is a basic natural feature of the human being....

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): so maybe the first requirement is friendship... and then loyalty and morals

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes something alone those lines Debbie

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think empathy is a basic thing.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: I hate be alone, nice i have so many friends around me

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): intrinsic.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: thats a basic drive for me for sure

[13:28] herman Bergson: The most funny thing are a bunch of babies....say 9 months old...

[13:29] herman Bergson: when one begins to cry....all take over

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol. That is so true.

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:29] Catt (catt.gable): misery loves company

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): same with laughter

[13:29] herman Bergson: But this is regarded as a first sign of empathy....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: yes that's true

[13:29] Mick Nerido: like yawning imitation?

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its like the boys in the pub watching football - one gets drunk antd they all take over ;)

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hahahahahah

[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh there is more to observe here among adults

[13:30] Fred123 Aiten: lol

[13:30] herman Bergson: Just keep a close eye on it...

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): when I interact with people who do not show empathy, I figure something is broken in them.

[13:30] herman Bergson: and you'll see that people will imitate each others gestures...

[13:31] herman Bergson: a couple talking....

[13:31] Catt (catt.gable): mirror

[13:31] herman Bergson: he touches his face....

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): some of this reminds me of 'herd instincts'

[13:31] herman Bergson: the other does the same

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): And yawning is a good example - it is an empathetic gesture...

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and herd instincts are followed by lower animals

[13:32] Mick Nerido: Fans in sporting events...

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is even more basic Merlin....

[13:32] herman Bergson: A panic in a stadion

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes Herman, perhaps because it is instinct not logical

[13:32] herman Bergson: There is no logic there, believe me :-)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: rather chaos

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Shoals of fish are interesting too....

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and mass flocks of birds

[13:33] herman Bergson: ok...so we are born with a certain capability....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and often unfortunately with tragic results

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: like recently new years over 60 people trampled to death due to panic

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: dont remember where

[13:34] herman Bergson: Now we have to figure out how that capability...the capability of empathy can lead to moral standards....

[13:34] herman Bergson: That still is a long way to go.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: But to give you an indication.....

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): It involves feedback ;)

[13:35] herman Bergson: an experiment with kids between 6 and 8....

[13:35] herman Bergson: they got a bunch of candy.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: and the instruction that they could ...it would eb nice to.....share it with another kid, they didn't know...

[13:36] herman Bergson: But that other kid was not present in the room....only a photo....

[13:36] herman Bergson: what happened was amazing....

[13:37] herman Bergson: Half of the kids split their stack of candies in two....half half

[13:37] herman Bergson: This leads to the fairness principle...

[13:37] herman Bergson: There was a same experiment with adults....

[13:38] herman Bergson: one person got 50 dollars....

[13:38] herman Bergson: He had to share it with someone else...

[13:38] herman Bergson: he was allowed to make only one offer to the other person....

[13:38] herman Bergson: If the other person would decline the offer the first person had to return the 50 dollars...

[13:39] herman Bergson: it is called the Ultimatum experiment...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: result....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: share or get nothing at all i guess

[13:39] herman Bergson: the majority split the money 25 - 25....half half

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): good experiment - expected result.

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is what you say so easily Debbie

[13:40] herman Bergson: Expected result

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): that makes my heart feel good

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes ...I would say so too....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet..I had the same experience about this

[13:41] herman Bergson: These are interesting things about the species homo sapiens...:-)

[13:41] Catt (catt.gable): why the ultimatum? did they think the subjects would not try as hard to share without that incentive?

[13:41] herman Bergson: But there is something other interesting thing....

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): Catt, I think the subjects were forced to "bet" on how empathetic others were.

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did those people get the money from someone else to experience..or..did they use their own money?

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes catt has a point. what if the experiment were repeated without the threst?

[13:42] herman Bergson: No Catt ...was just the title of the experiment...because any offer to split was in fact an ultimatum for the other...take it or leave it

[13:43] herman Bergson: We'll get back to this experimant...because there have been tested variations too

[13:43] Catt (catt.gable): I thought I understood you to say the subjects couldn't keep the 50 if turned down by the other. Maybe I misunderstood you

[13:43] Catt (catt.gable): ok

[13:43] herman Bergson: But in the literature it is named the Ultimatum experiment...

[13:44] herman Bergson: One thing I still want to tell you....

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): .

[13:44] herman Bergson: the Chimp has always been regarded as THE closest relative to the human...

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well..They discovered another ape..the Bonobo....

[13:45] herman Bergson: as smart and social as the chimp...

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): There are some down the road from me - in a primate reserve.

[13:45] herman Bergson: That Bonobo is even more social and non aggressive...

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): they look quite human...

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes Debbie, me too

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): or about 80 miles away anyway

[13:46] herman Bergson: chimps are very aggressive agiants apes from outside their group...

[13:46] herman Bergson: even go at war against another group and kill

[13:46] Catt (catt.gable): and as they age, apparently

[13:46] herman Bergson: Bonobos dont...

[13:46] herman Bergson: We'll get to that later, but the funny thing is...

[13:47] herman Bergson: you get the impression  that we are a mix of chimp and bonobo in our behavior :-)

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and some have a tiny bit of Neandertaler in them...

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: some are chimps and some are bonoboos

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well good for a next lecture...

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed and thank you all

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: speaking of sharing

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: here u go herman ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: My apologies for the rough reception Afro....

[[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks Herman....

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): that was a great lecture.

[13:48] Mick Nerido: thanks!

[13:48] Catt (catt.gable): TY Herman

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): always

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: this was really interesting

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you, Herman!

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: this we have to investigate further for sure ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: But you are always welcome fro, but you'd better be in time next time :-)

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): btw - there is a lovely subject in New Scientist this week herman

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): the Hologenome theory of evolution...

[13:50] herman Bergson: ok Debbie?!

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=hologenome&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologenome_theory_of_evolution&ei=FjfvUIeaMIKShgeb3oCgDQ&usg=AFQjCNHuAkEuBfcNUt3b_NnP5iQOHvdHNw&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.ZG4

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Good night Herman, good night everybody!

[13:50] herman Bergson: ohhh!!!

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): heres a wikipedia link

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lizzy

[13:50] herman Bergson: THNX!

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all ㋡

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): qwarkk is afk

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hhehehe

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will sit here till he gets back

[13:50] herman Bergson: poor Qwark...

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): and on that note - night friends....

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I will look that up too Debbie

[13:51] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Herman my RL roommate is philosopher, one day we were talking about one philosopher who had questioned do we exist in real?

[13:51] Catt (catt.gable): regarding the 50 dollar share test, would be interested in what the variations were sometime.

[13:51] herman Bergson: in fact that is a silly question.....

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): Afroze, I know you are a figment of my imagination ;)

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone

[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): me too, Catt

[13:52] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Debbie that philosopher made a theory out of to explain we do exist

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): me too catt

[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Afroze this is a silly question and let me tell you why

[13:52] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): sure

[13:53] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): sorry i dunno much of philosophy so i asked

[13:53] herman Bergson: When someone asks ARE WE REAL he must already have the knowledge of the difference between real and unreal

[13:53] herman Bergson: But IF he has that knowledge....where did he get it from???

[13:53] Velvet (velvet.braham): ooooooo

[13:54] herman Bergson: So it is a silly question because it begs the question :-)

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): Maybe we all exist in a giant computer simulation ?

[13:54] herman Bergson: Even Descartes ran into a wall....

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: Matrix

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:54] Velvet (velvet.braham): the matrix

[13:54] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): haha Bejiita, was thinking same

[13:54] herman Bergson: He even didn't ask ..are we real...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: at least i love those films

[13:54] herman Bergson: He just asked...AM I???

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think therefore I am.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:55] herman Bergson: which was in a way pretty stupid because you only can ask that when you ARE :-)

[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): lol

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:56] herman Bergson: ANd thus he believed he had found the golden egg of philosophy....I AM...whhooo hooo:-)

[13:56] Catt (catt.gable): I think the point isn't that it is or is not a silly question, but rather to pose it in order to arrive at something else...a sort of base position

[13:56] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): thanks for that Herman

[13:57] herman Bergson: The question is silly in the sense that is already presupposes the answer which makes asking the question meaningful

[13:57] herman Bergson: I mean

[13:57] herman Bergson: before asking about the unreal you also have to know the real

[13:57] Catt (catt.gable): I think the person posing it knew that but wanted to introduce the subject on the way to exploring existence

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have to go..thanks Herman..

[13:58] Catt (catt.gable): just another view

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu Beertje

[13:58] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, a lot of self - philosophy starts with trying to decipher the deeper meaning of words... and dealing with imprecision...

[13:59] herman Bergson: or even by asking how words get their meaning, Debbie

[13:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes indeed Herman.

[13:59] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): science is pretty striaght forward…how would you define philosophy...I never understood that...

[13:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): philosophy is the science of thinking about who we are....

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:00] herman Bergson: The problem, Afroze, is here the use of a word....

[14:00] herman Bergson: first of all philosophy sois no science....

[14:00] herman Bergson: science is defined as certain knowledge

[14:01] herman Bergson: Like Bertrand Russell said....

[14:01] herman Bergson: as soon as you have a clear and definite answer to a question which was regarded as philosophical....the subject moves over to science

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): indeed!

[14:02] herman Bergson: For instance dualism.....

[14:02] herman Bergson: is there a mind and a body....as two independent separately exisiting entities in this world

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): Science is not certain knowledge - it is a method used to seek knowledge...

[14:03] Velvet (velvet.braham): well, that's science as a philosophy! :)

[14:03] herman Bergson: in 1650 till 1950...roughly....the answer was a philosophical answer

[14:03] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Debbie best way to define science is nature and its rules

[14:03] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...I cant agree with that....

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): Me, I do science ;)

[14:04] herman Bergson: Then I would say....pragmatically...

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): what don't you agree with herman?

[14:04] herman Bergson: science is theories about reality that work

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: true

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes - but they are all arrived at using scientific method....

[14:04] Catt (catt.gable): as far as they have gotten at at any given time

[14:04] Velvet (velvet.braham): I was a math major in college

[14:05] Velvet (velvet.braham): and I took a philosophy class

[14:05] Velvet (velvet.braham): the professor like to put me on the spot

[14:05] Velvet (velvet.braham): for entertainment value

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): ie - hypothesis - experiment - new hypothesis.

[14:05] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Debbie u are defining instruments but not science

[14:05] herman Bergson: yes Debbie..but any hypothesis is based on knowledge of facts

[14:05] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): i agree with herman definition

[14:05] Catt (catt.gable): new discovery new hypothesis new experiment newer hypothesis

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): and scientists all know we may have to change hypotheses if new facts emerge

[14:06] Catt (catt.gable): yes

[14:06] herman Bergson: yes...but that is not what applies to philosophy....

[14:06] herman Bergson: Philosophy is not a science in that sense

[14:07] herman Bergson: far from that even....I would say

[14:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): I agree.

[14:07] herman Bergson: Philosophy is what comes before science

[14:07] Velvet (velvet.braham): deductive reasoning

[14:08] herman Bergson: you use that in philosophy too Velvet....

[14:08] herman Bergson: even more so...philosophy developed the methods of logic

[14:08] Debbie Dee (framdor): Science is not certain knowledge - it is a method used to seek knowledge... - I only disagreed with your statement on science

[14:08] herman Bergson: So before science comes LOGIC...

[14:08] Debbie Dee (framdor): sure

[14:08] Velvet (velvet.braham): yes

[14:08] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:08] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): true

[14:09] Bejiita Imako: sounds right to e

[14:09] Bejiita Imako: me

[14:09] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:09] herman Bergson: Not certain in an absolute sense Debbie...

[14:09] herman Bergson: in a pragmatic sense...it works...

[14:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): see - this is philosophy ;)

[14:09] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[14:09] herman Bergson: this pill with stuff this or that cures me...

[14:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): we deduce things from other things...

[14:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): and argue a lot ;))))

[14:09] herman Bergson: is that the best pill?

[14:10] herman Bergson: The best pill there is at the moment :-)

[14:10] Debbie Dee (framdor): Once you use scientific method and experiments in philosophy, it must be science.

[14:11] herman Bergson: A pretty odd statement Debbie :-)

[14:11] herman Bergson: It was philosophy that developed the scientific method....

[14:11] Catt (catt.gable): nods

[14:11] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): true

[14:11] herman Bergson: Think of Popper for instance

[14:11] herman Bergson: he showed that induction only leads to larger probability....

[14:12] herman Bergson: never to absolute certainty

[14:12] herman Bergson: so don't go and look for another white swan....

[14:12] Debbie Dee (framdor): ok ;)

[14:12] herman Bergson: put your energy in finding a black one!

[14:12] Catt (catt.gable): smiles

[14:12] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:13] Debbie Dee (framdor): anyway... I really must be going... thanks for a great evening...

[14:13] herman Bergson: Then you know absolutely certain that the statement "All swans are white" is 100&% FALSE

[14:13] Catt (catt.gable): haha

[14:13] Debbie Dee (framdor): good induction advice.

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[14:13] Velvet (velvet.braham): this is why I look forward to this class

[14:13] Velvet (velvet.braham): thanks, everyone

[14:13] Debbie Dee (framdor): till tuesday... byeeee

[14:13] herman Bergson: My pleasure Velvet

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: cu then

[14:14] herman Bergson: Be Debbie

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): Thanks again, herman ㋡

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): I better push along too

[14:14] Bejiita Imako: bye all

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): bye Bej

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): Afroze, glad you could make it ㋡

[14:15] Catt (catt.gable): bye all ㋡

[14:15] herman Bergson: Bye CAtt

[14:15] herman Bergson: Again...sorry for the rough entrance Afroze

[14:15] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): it was nice class Herman

[14:15] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): its ok Herman

[14:15] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): I liked it very much

[14:15] herman Bergson: well thank you...

[14:16] herman Bergson: You are always welcome

[14:16] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): i'll attend next class

[14:16] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): thnks for having me

[14:16] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): have good day/night

[14:16] herman Bergson: You too :-)