458: The Art Not to be an Egoist 23

When we look in the mirror we want to see a happy and content face, independent of the question whether this mirror in de presidential suite in a Hilton Hotel or in our own bathroom.

This was my last sentence of the previous lecture and it leaves us with a serious question: what is a happy and content face, what does it mean to "feel good", or to use Aristotle's term, enjoy the "eudaimonia"?

That is hard to say. It is not some predetermined quality of human nature. And for knowing what it means you need more than only a sharp and enlightened rationality.

Aristotle is here apparently in the same position as Larry Flint, the editor of Hustler, when he was sued. He provoked the judge by asking:"Can you give me a definition of pornography?"

"No I can not", said the judge, "but I recognize it, when I see it". And isn't it not the same with the Good? You can not exactly define it, but you recognize it as such, when you see it.

So, no exact definition perhaps. And there is a second problem. With ethics it is the same as with someone watching a soccer game on TV, or a lover, or a math student.

To know how it is done,  by far doesn't mean, that you can play soccer, make love or solve the math problem. Only through experience we learn, what feels good in the long run and gives meaning to our life.

Through sometimes tedious learning and practicing we understand how we can keep our feelings and ratio in balance. We need both for a good life.

You certainly know the simplistic description of human nature as being split up in rationality and feeling. The eternal debate that you should be rational….no! you should primarily follow your feelings.

When we are smart, we teach ourselves to get our lust and emotions and our rational insights into harmony. And we teach ourselves to be fair to other people. 

A life without respectability is hardly possible. We want to find respect and recognition in ourselves and want to experience this from people around us. These are two sides of the same coin.

After our birth we do not enter this world with a complete blank, a tabula rasa. We are part of the biological system of the primates and have, so to speak, our "instincts".

But achieving a fulfilled and rewarding life, can only be the result of a long learning process by education and training. In terms of Aristotle is means that we have to learn and train our good features, our virtues.

Virtues like fairness, honesty, compassion, respect, peacefulness, responsability. Aristotle never came up with a specific list or order of importance.

He thought of human nature as being a unity, a whole, that could be trained and educated to become a virtuous person with a character-solid identity.

Here we run into a few problems. Aristotle hadn't the slightest idea that spraying some Oxyticin in the nose of people can change social behavior seriously, virtue or not. Or the Millgram experiments or the behavior of camp guards.

An other problem with this Aristotelian character-solid identity is, that we don't like it. Just think! How tempting is it to a thoroughly virtuous human being?

What is so convincing in it, that I want to become one? Besides that, how realistic is it? Which human being can say of himself that he is 100% good, 100% virtuous?

Ok…to prevent that this lecture becomes to long, I leave it this….an open end to be resolved next Tuesday.

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you

[13:23] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:23] Debbie DJ: *•.¸♥MwAHh♥¸.•*

[13:23] Debbie DJ: - ill have to read the website

[13:23] Debbie DJ: darn...

[13:23] Gemma Allen: not sure about Aristotle all the time

[13:23] Andret Beck: Thank you prof ^^

[13:23] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:23] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:23] Vadaman: Thank you prof.

[13:24] Debbie DJ: thanks herman

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:24] herman Bergson: I guess the basic idea is very Greek....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:24] herman Bergson: The belief that you can be educated and educate yourself to become a virtuous person...

[13:25] Gemma Allen: or a warrior like spartans

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] Gemma Allen: the whole culture would shape you

[13:25] Debbie DJ: Virtuous is defined by the societal values in which you live.

[13:25] Fred123 Aiten: is there an agreed definition of virtuosity?

[13:25] herman Bergson: but as I said..Aristotle missed neurobiological and psychological knowledge we have today

[13:25] Gemma Allen: right

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes that was not known by then

[13:25] Debbie DJ: so evil is when these values are undermined by your actions

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: that could be a definition maybe

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:26] Andret Beck: (but who say us that being virtuous is the right path?)

[13:26] Debbie DJ: I thought that out yesterday ;)

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well here is in fact the problem I want to address Tuesday

[13:27] Andret Beck: (I would like to ask this question to Nietzsche ^^)

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ok hold on.....

[13:27] Fred123 Aiten: If I become a cannibal living in the jungle with other cannibals does that make me virtuous?

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: when your evil you do everything to hurt others so the total opposite of a virtuous person

[13:27] herman Bergson: First to respond to Andret....

[13:27] herman Bergson: I would say that there is no right path at all....

[13:28] herman Bergson: The idea of a right path is some metaphysical assumption about human nature...

[13:28] herman Bergson: soI think...a debate about the right path misses the point....

[13:28] Merlin: Interesting view Herman

[13:28] herman Bergson: But then what?

[13:29] Merlin: I dont disagree but some would disagree strongly

[13:29] herman Bergson: To talk about the "right" path is to talk about the human being as a product of evolution

[13:29] Debbie DJ: evil is different in different cultures - a cannibal is not evil within his own society.

[13:29] Debbie DJ: "right" is like normal or average...

[13:30] Merlin: It is contrary to most religions isn't it?

[13:30] Fred123 Aiten: but does that make it ok to be a cannibal?

[13:30] herman Bergson: we are talking about the right path...not evil atm

[13:30] herman Bergson: stick to the subject plz

[13:30] Debbie DJ: I use the idea of evil to illuminate right ;)

[13:31] herman Bergson: the point is that what you would call the "right " path regarding to virtues for instance is just basic behavior of primates

[13:31] Gemma Allen: HMMM

[13:31] Debbie DJ: I dont agree.

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:31] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:31] Debbie DJ: or rather, i am not convinced....

[13:32] herman Bergson: it has been shown that bonobo apes have a sense of ..at least unfairness

[13:32] Debbie DJ: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] Andret Beck: I also believe that animals, even wild ones, have a kind of "ethic"

[13:32] herman Bergson: what I mean is...us being more complex in brain structure have equal ideas and far more developed....

[13:33] herman Bergson: which we now call ethics

[13:33] herman Bergson: No Andret I am sorry

[13:33] Andret Beck: look at them while playing (Huizinga), they just pretend to beat each other

[13:33] Debbie DJ: In our previous ethics lecture, I think you concluded that ethics related to the normal values for a society?

[13:34] herman Bergson: as far as we know animals are not able to reflect on their behavior and evaluate it in terms of good and bad...they just follow instinct and learnt behavior

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: so a gang of bank robbers are ethical because in their society they are all the same?

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes fred. not your ethics, but true to the norm of their ethics

[13:35] herman Bergson: to call them robbers is already a moral judgement Fred..?

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: so ethical behaviours can be whatever you want it to be

[13:35] herman Bergson: There you have a point Fred....

[13:35] Debbie DJ: no - it is the norm for the society..

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: maybe you are ethical when you follow your own principles and values

[13:36] herman Bergson: also a typical remark Lizzy

[13:36] Andret Beck: well, Herman, I see animals differently. I think that they are not "random beings" and that the word "instictual" has been too over used

[13:36] Merlin: Yes I like what Lizzy said

[13:36] Andret Beck: (this is just my point of view)

[13:37] herman Bergson: SO far we have reached a point in our investigation of human nature that seems to tellus that it all depends on what we want individually...

[13:37] Debbie DJ: the evil bit has to be contrasted here. I put it to you that unethical societal behaviour is called evil. like terrorists are eveil for those terrorized.

[13:37] herman Bergson: so ...every person his own set of standards ...

[13:37] herman Bergson: we all know that that is not the case in our world...

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: so if I am part of the bank robbers gang and then hand the others over to the police, I am evil?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes from the aristotelian point of view..it is all about living a good live....fulfilled and rewarding....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: seems logical

[13:38] herman Bergson: From the point of view of the bank robber yes I would say :-)

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm tricky indeed fred

[13:39] Debbie DJ: i agree

[13:39] herman Bergson: but yet you still call them robbers fred....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: in their ethics you are evil but i guess in the general ethics that is the true good ur good

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the ethics that we all must try follow to make the world better

[13:39] Debbie DJ: yes... so looking at evil, makes me think that good is what is not evil

[13:40] herman Bergson: The idea of Aristotle was rather optimistic....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: its tricky

[13:40] Debbie DJ: ie normal societal behaviour that feels good

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and make all benefit on ot and be happy

[13:40] herman Bergson: he believed that eventually every human being wants to be a good human being....a virtuous human to live a life in harmony, in eudaimonia with his environment

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: that i guess is the general ethics standard

[13:41] herman Bergson: In real this doesn't seem to be the whole picture.....

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: but we haven't defined what being a good human being means

[13:41] herman Bergson: there is also something in ethics called "you OUGHT to do this or that"

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: its so tricky to try to define even if i d say i know the answer

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: very complex subject

[13:42] Debbie DJ: that is the bit added by governments or kings - to benefit their income ;)

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but basically a bit what i said there before

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: have to check a bit more on this

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but i know how i want the world to be

[13:43] Debbie DJ: how?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well Debbie....they misused this idea of moral obligation, I would say

[13:43] Gemma Allen: the whole world??

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: no wars no greed no starvation and everyone is happy and nice to each other

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: sadly thats not gonna happen it seems

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...that is more or less the point...

[13:44] Debbie DJ: and can the Randian bankers ever deliver that Utopia, I ask humbly?

[13:44] herman Bergson: We all know it could be like that and YET we don't act according to that idea

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: very true

[13:44] Gemma Allen: never

[13:44] Debbie DJ: as individuals we do - as groups we don't

[13:44] herman Bergson: No Debbie....Ayn Rand is a cultural major disaster...

[13:45] herman Bergson: a narrow minded view on human nature

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: I'm not sure that we do as individuals.

[13:45] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:45] Debbie DJ: - just baiting you Herman...

[13:45] herman Bergson: You caught a big fish Debbie ^_^

[13:45] herman Bergson: congrats :-))

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: one thing we need to do is stop blowing each other up with explosives and weapond as happens everywhere now

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Individuals to me seem to all strive to be happy

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes Debbie......and that will be our next question...

[13:46] Debbie DJ: but as groups - we blow each other up, and exploit each other.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Fred123 Aiten: happiness or wealth Debbie. Seems the latter to me is viewed as more important

[13:46] Andret Beck: well, I don't know whether we do so individuals or by group, you know, some times people act in a certain way only in order to communicate some thing to the group

[13:47] Gemma Allen: true

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] Andret Beck: so people act as individuals but only to communicate to the group

[13:47] Andret Beck: (for instance politicians ^^)

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Fred, we are under the mistaken illusion that wealth brings happiness.... despite the costs

[13:47] Fred123 Aiten: very true

[13:47] Debbie DJ: true andret

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: Wealth doesn't bring happiness at all...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: why have 100 million dollars if you cant buy stuff but just pile it up, and u cant buy friends

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: friends u get by being nice and social

[13:48] Gemma Allen: i would still like to try

[13:48] herman Bergson  grins

[[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: that i like happiness on the costs of your neighbor

[13:48] herman Bergson: me too Gemma :-))

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:48] Fred123 Aiten: I agree totally but wherever I look people are totally focussed on wealth

[13:48] Gemma Allen  GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: its crazy

[13:49] Debbie DJ: And of course - gross consumption is consuming our planet, and us ;(

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: more money more MOOORE MOOOOOORE!

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: thats all they want

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: true as well

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is plenty of research that shows that the accumulation of wealth does not increase your feeling of happiness.

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: today they make stuff so it should break and we have to spend more money to buy new things while the toxic scrap heaps grow

[13:50] Debbie DJ: cool thing in sl is you can behave like a monk in rl and buy all this cheap virtual stuff to satisfy your cravings ;)

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:50] herman Bergson: ok...when you give me a Mercedes I might feel happy about that.....but that feeling of happiness is not lasting...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hahahah yes

[13:50] Gemma Allen: and lots of freebies too

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:50] herman Bergson: after a month I just drive a big car

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aha

[[13:51] herman Bergson: It seems that every person has some kind of happiness level....

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i want mine to be as high as possible

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: you may feel unhappy or overjoyed...but eventually your feelings return to that old level

[13:51] Debbie DJ: I still think we should immediately change to a 4 day working week, and spend more time seeing our friends

[13:52] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:52] Debbie DJ: bejita

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie...:-)

[13:52] Gemma Allen: good idea

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: I like that idea Debbie

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Debbie DJ: it will cut our consumption too....

[13:52] Vadaman: lol

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: do we all have to take a cut in salary though?

[13:52] Qwark Allen: we are still in the 18th century idea of work

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: maybe

[13:52] herman Bergson: It all boils down to just redistribution of resources of this planet

[13:52] Debbie DJ: yes herman

[13:52] Qwark Allen: work the most possible, till you have no more strengths

[13:53] herman Bergson: we still are not yet able to do that

[13:53] Qwark Allen: then no mood for friends

[13:53] Debbie DJ: especially when you look at fractional reserve currency, and quantitative easing...

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:53] Gemma Allen: another issue

[13:53] Andret Beck: (Enlightment, Industrialization, Exlpoiting, super machines etc. and we are still not able to reduce are working? T____T)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: have to go soon party today at the corner

[13:54] Gemma Allen: bring requests

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: we have to feed many people who don't want to work

[13:54] herman Bergson: Like Clint Eastwood said "A man has to know his limitations" Andret :-)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:54] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:54] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:54] Andret Beck: ahaha .... yeah, I agree Herman ^^

[13:55] Qwark Allen: was really interesting class as usual

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:55] Andret Beck: the solution is inside you

[13:55] herman Bergson: Gemma rings the bell....our time is up ^_^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: to do what is expected in general like that i d have to be a super saiyan in rl to manage

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: but we are humans not saiyans

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: this was a wonderful lecture again!

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this good discussion again....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:55] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:55] Qwark Allen: ☆*¨¨* ♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''* ♥:*¨¨*☆

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

457: The Art Not to be an Egoist 22

The leading ideas in this series of lectures may become clearer and clearer to you. If not, let me tell you which they are.

With respect to understanding human nature the first leading idea is, that our ability for  moral behavior is based on natural, innate drives.

In other words, the homo sapiens is a moral being by nature and has a mainly cooperative nature and is not driven by selfishness.

The second leading thought is, that eventually we are not primarily driven by private greed, lust or interests, but by our self image.

That is, our actions are guided mainly by how we think of ourselves, also in relation to our fellowmen and how they think about us.

Therefore it isn't that bad at all when in a given situation we do not get what we longed for, or do not succeed in some plan.

It feels much worse when we are attack as a person, when our being, the person who we are, is questioned, when our self-esteem is hurt or destroyed.

Our existence is more than just our drives, reason and actions, otherwise how would you explain this sensitivity with respect to the person we think we are, or how we see ourselves.

You also could say that morality is not the simple product of our rationality, but it is a main characteristic of human nature.

These preliminary conclusions are not the result of findings of modern science. They are the basic ideas of Aristotle (384 - 322 BC).

Why is this man so important? With regard to our topic, the answer is simple: He was the first philosopher with a strikingly realistic view on human nature. 

As a biologist, he explored the interplay of our emotions, our will and our reason. As a philosopher, he observed, why we not just SHOULD be good, but also why it is tempting to WANT to be good.

Contrary to Plato, his teacher, Aristotle did not amalgamate Truth and Ethics. They don't belong together.

What truth is, is a matter of knowledge. What morals is, is a matter of experience. And while there are objective standards for truth, in logic and physics, with respect to moral ideas we are always dealing with subjective standards.

While sciences go for truth, you can't speak of truth in ethics. We do not get any further than concluding that something is plausible and that it makes sense to incorporate certain moral ideas in our actions.

Like his teacher Plato, Aristotle however could not resist to amalgamate, to intermix the order of nature and the order of human existence.

That, of course, is still a common view in certain believes, that the human being is just a part of one grand cosmic scheme.

If we are part of such a scheme it would enable us to point out, what we eventually have to be  or have to do, to be or become a true human being, the complete man.

This way of thinking was picked up after Aristotle in Western Culture by christianity and still lives on in such ideas as Intelligent Design.

However, Aristotle refrained from such farfetched ideas. For him the most important question only was: What is a good life? 

Is it limitless conceding to our animal nature? No, it is our need of fulfillment and sense. Living creatures that can have intentions 

and can think about their own intentions and those of others, long for a happy life. We all want a good life, the eudaimonia.

When we look in the mirror we want to see a happy and content face, independent of the question whether this mirror in de presidential suite in a Hilton Hotel or in our own bathroom.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: thank you ^_^

[13:21] Debbie DJ: so, where is the evil?

[13:21] Debbie DJ: good lecture prof.

[13:22] herman Bergson: yes Debbie...Evil is the subject of my next project

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:22] herman Bergson: a logical response

[13:22] herman Bergson: But I'll get to that in next lectures of course.....

[13:23] Debbie DJ: So if we are all good moral people desiring to be loved, why are there so many starving poor people in he world?

[13:23] herman Bergson: we all think of ourselves as being good persons...yet we know we now and then do harm to others...:-)

[13:23] herman Bergson: ok Debbie....

[13:23] Merlin: I was thinking a bit about this today, asking whether we are really so good in fact

[13:23] Merlin: OR....

[13:24] Merlin: Is it something we do when we are already happy and have something left to spare

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: really interesting stuff this for suer

[13:24] herman Bergson: I think we need to make a difference between the individual and the group....

[13:24] herman Bergson: I mean...as an individual you can be a moral person....

[13:25] herman Bergson: but as a member of a hedgefund you just kill companies and squeeze them for the profits

[13:25] Debbie DJ: Its like we want to be good and loved, but we NEED lots of STUFF to do that...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: when in a group u risk being pulled with the others into a nasty mob

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: the group pressure

[13:25] herman Bergson: that is the paradox Bejiita....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: to feel the force to do like the others to get accepted

[13:26] herman Bergson: for every member in the group can say that...I was pulled in...

[13:26] Merlin: Yes, and sometimes that peer pressure requires that people are bad

[13:26] herman Bergson: good point Bejiita...

[13:26] Debbie DJ: And to some extent, advertising manipulates our mob behaviour...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: thats a major problem in schools ext where some group bully others basically ruining their lives and in worst case forcing them to shift school or even move to another place

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: to be rich and beautiful seems to be more attractive than to be social responsible only

[13:27] herman Bergson: a good life is also t be recognized and respected by others

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: same prob on the internet, telling people nasty things and believe because u have the computer between its not as bad

[13:27] Merlin: I wish I could believe that Herman

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but its just as bad through a computer

[13:27] Merlin: People near me only look at outward appearances

[13:28] herman Bergson: What do you mean Merlin?

[13:28] Merlin: and some people are looking at our prosperity.....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: i hear all time now about "net hatred" where people tell others they are useless can go die and general threats on facebook and other media

[13:28] herman Bergson: Ah I see

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: the computer act like a barrier between it seems, big problem

[13:28] Merlin: I mean that being Good is not so well respected, or even recognized

[13:29] herman Bergson: True Merlin....

[13:29] Debbie DJ: Merlin, true, but being bad is quickly recognized.... or is it?

[13:29] MerlinMerlin smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: and that was a thing Aristotle didn't know at all...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: how a person can be influenced by advertisements etc...or even brain manipulation

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes thats also a factor

[13:30] herman Bergson: Aristotle had the idea that a person can develop character....which means ...guide his life by virtues

[13:30] herman Bergson: But I'll get to that next Thursday :-)

[13:31] Debbie DJ: Can it be that the nature of man is changing due to constant manipulation of people by corporate and government media?

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: very interesting Herman

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: id say could be very much possible

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: by certain 100 % sure about that

[13:31] Debbie DJ: yay thanks bejita

[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...there you hit a core issue...

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: yes Debbie you are right

[13:32] herman Bergson: We are trying to understand human nature in this series of lectures...

[13:32] herman Bergson: human nature....

[13:32] herman Bergson: question is...

[13:32] herman Bergson: has it been the same through all ages

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: look at north korea, the people have been isolated from internet ect and then brainwashed so that they believe they live in paradise then they in fact live in hell on earth

[13:32] herman Bergson: or not

[13:32] herman Bergson: as you say..

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: with Kim as the devil

[13:33] herman Bergson: is it now a product of manipulation etc?

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: they have another self image in north Korea

[13:33] Debbie DJ: western manipulation is no less than korea, just more subtle...

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: true Debbie

[13:34] herman Bergson: Let me put it this way.....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: also they barely can survive for the day, Kim's strategy in making them weak so he can manipulate them like dolls, if they survive that is

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: horrible!

[13:34] Debbie DJ: It is all about consuming faster and believing it is our right.

[13:34] herman Bergson: ok...let me put it this way...

[13:35] herman Bergson: about human nature....

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: we have to see through these tricky things debbie

[13:35] Debbie DJ: I wish I could Lizzy...

[13:35] herman Bergson: I always have wondered about it.....but when you listen to 99% of all songs...

[13:35] herman Bergson: they are about love...

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes!

[13:36] Debbie DJ: and most art is beautiful...

[13:36] herman Bergson: and when you look at the history of literature....and music...

[13:36] herman Bergson: nothing new there...

[13:36] herman Bergson: songs about love

[13:36] Debbie DJ: but herman - if you listen to death metal - there is no love...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] Debbie DJ: it is about death and destruction - the apocalypse and fire...

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Debbie and you also have those crime rappers or violence rappers...

[13:37] herman Bergson: but they come and go...

[13:37] Debbie DJ: post nuclear wastelands, hunger , and death

[13:37] herman Bergson: the love song is an ever lasting subject :-)

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: you can't hear that always

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: yes!

[13:37] Debbie DJ: yes... Like war and destruction - also everlasting ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:38] herman Bergson: TWo sides of a coin it seems regarding human nature

[13:38] Debbie DJ: definitely 2 sides to us....

[13:38] Debbie DJ: snap :)

[13:39] herman Bergson: But everybody loves love and everybody dislikes destruction, although it happens

[13:39] Debbie DJ: By focussing us on the moral good side, you have helped us more clearly see what evil might be....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yesa

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is..I prefer the positive look at human nature....

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: it influences our hormone balance

[13:40] herman Bergson: and so far I have been right....

[13:40] herman Bergson: we still exist

[13:40] Debbie DJ: I prefer love to hate....

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: of course

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: me too

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: Im a nice guy

[13:40] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:40] Debbie DJ: - i nearly said I hate hate

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:41] herman Bergson: Like every normal human being would debbie

[13:41] herman Bergson: good one

[13:41] Debbie DJ: got to be so careful with words around philosophers..

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Merlin: Yes Debbie and quite right too

[13:42] herman Bergson: no not with words...

[13:42] herman Bergson: they are just the wrapping of your ideas and thoughts :-)

[13:42] Merlin: Yeah, perhaps there are bigger pedants than philosophers

[13:43] Debbie DJ: I wouldnt pack a calm blue thought in a firey red wrapper

[13:43] herman Bergson: what is a 'pendant' Merlin?

[13:43] Debbie DJ: word nit picker...

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: pedant

[13:43] Merlin: Pedant, it's someone who is obsessive about accuracy

[13:43] Merlin: Yes Debbie

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: lioke keeping everything tidy and in order

[13:44] Merlin: Derives from schoolteacher I believe

[13:44] herman Bergson: ah in dutch we all such a person a "komma neuker"

[13:44] herman Bergson: lol

[13:44] Merlin: lol

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:44] Debbie DJ: that would be the editor....

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well, I guess you are ready for the lecture of next Thursday now :-)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: think so ㋡

[13:45] Merlin: hehe yes, after a bit of rest

[13:45] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation again....

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: you can start it right now, :-)

[13:45] Debbie DJ: I sure am.... Cant wait

[13:45] herman Bergson: unless you still have a burning question or remark

[13:46] Debbie DJ: I just want to say the recap tonight was most useful...

[13:46] herman Bergson: then...

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all

456: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 21

In my lectures so far I have tried to find the pieces of the puzzle, which create the true picture of human nature.

There are all kinds of theories about what is human nature. For centuries it was the playground of philosophers only.

But nowadays many sciences contribute their pieces to our puzzle. That is, there is a growing body of evidence of what we already understood about ourselves.

In lecture 454 I said : "We look at ourselves as a good person, or  long to be regarded as one at least. 

And that is why we are nice to each other (not always but often), because it makes us FEEL GOOD.

Not because it serves our genetic interests, but it nurtures our psyche, our mind."

In the next lecture I showed you that this "Feel good" desire had already old philosophical roots in hedonism and eudaimonism.

I begin to wonder, whether it is really an ART not to be an egoist. Is it really audacious to claim, that the homo sapiens is NOT an egoist by nature,

that his happiness is not the result of his selfish, calculating exploiting of his fellowmen or the eternal pursuit of his greed?

The greedy, calculating banker might save a young kitten from drowning, or help a stranger by pointing him in the right direction.

As I said in previous lectures, we are a vessel of conflicts and contradictions and it is all the product of one's brain.

But what becomes clearer and clearer is that our brain, or actually We, steer in a clear direction: we want to feel good, we want to feel happy.

And this is achieved by one of our basic qualities: being a social being. We need the other to be happy ourselves.

What motivates us is recognition, appreciation, friendship, in other words, the feeling of being accepted socially.

When we feel ourselves socially good, the brain produces neuropetides, like oxytocin and vasopressin. These 'feel good' hormones are like a balm for our soul.

The opposite is true as well. When we get under stress the brain produces the stress hormone cortisol.

Of course happiness is much more complex than just observing the production of hormones in the brain..

Let's get back to good old Aristotle and his idea of "eudaimonia" as the perfect state of happiness. I think he really hit the bull's eye a 2000 years ago.

You can find dozens of definitions of happiness, but Aristotle already knew. Happiness is the inner state of being in balance with yourself and with your  environment.

We can achieve that state in many ways, but definitely not  by assuming that we are only calculating egoists.

We can be altruists, while calculating our profit in helping someone else, and the next moment altruists for free by helping an old lady cross the street.

But it all leads to the same result: it makes us feel good. It boosts our Self Image. We look in the mirror and smile at ourselves….  what do we really see in that mirror?

The Discussion

[2013/02/19 13:21]  herman Bergson: Thank you.. ^_^

[2013/02/19 13:22]  herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-))

[2013/02/19 13:22]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): good question what do we see in that mirror.

[2013/02/19 13:22]  herman Bergson: I'LL DEAL WITH THAT IN THE NEXT LECTURE FAITHFULL :-)

[2013/02/19 13:23]  herman Bergson: oops caps

[2013/02/19 13:23]  herman Bergson: sorry

[2013/02/19 13:23]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): haha

[2013/02/19 13:23]  Debbie DJ (framdor): When individuals are happy, society functions well. That is an evolutionary win - the happy society will be more resilient ?

[2013/02/19 13:23]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[2013/02/19 13:23]  Bejiita Imako: yes thats true

[2013/02/19 13:23]  herman Bergson: True Debbie...

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Debbie DJ (framdor): so maybe we evolved happiness to survive ;)

[2013/02/19 13:24]  herman Bergson: The problem is only...why aren't we nice all the time..:-)

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Chuck Donardson: I am

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Chuck Donardson: :)

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Because we aren't perfect yet ;)

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Bejiita Imako: indeed a mistery sort of

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Chuck Donardson: Because we have children

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Debbie DJ (framdor): ************ G I G G L E S ************

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Debbie DJ (framdor): chuck

[2013/02/19 13:24]  herman Bergson: If that means living in harmony with the group, you are right Debbie

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): we haven't realized that we aren't perfect.

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Chuck Donardson: :)

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Merlin (merlin.saxondale): we have to compete for things

[2013/02/19 13:24]  Bejiita Imako: guess power and money have drive on us as well that often gets the best of us and ruins everything

[2013/02/19 13:25]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): or rather realized that we are perfect

[2013/02/19 13:25]  Chuck Donardson: we are perfect

[2013/02/19 13:25]  herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...one source of evil perhaps

[2013/02/19 13:25]  Merlin (merlin.saxondale): /me nods

[2013/02/19 13:25]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Our societies also channel feelings of unhappiness towards an "enemy". Not the operation of religion in creating people we like to dislike.

[2013/02/19 13:26]  herman Bergson: But the thing is....every person has some set point of happiness...

[2013/02/19 13:26]  Chuck Donardson: yes, is it the default

[2013/02/19 13:26]  Bejiita Imako: ah

[2013/02/19 13:26]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2013/02/19 13:26]  herman Bergson: indeed Chuck...

[2013/02/19 13:26]  herman Bergson: and the next point is...

[2013/02/19 13:26]  Fred123 Aiten: so there is no common definition of happiness

[2013/02/19 13:26]  herman Bergson: when you become unhappy...for instance because of the loss of a dear one...

[2013/02/19 13:27]  herman Bergson: you'll eventually get back to your set point of happiness

[2013/02/19 13:27]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Happiness is very personal - a state of mind.

[2013/02/19 13:27]  herman Bergson: When you win a lottery and become a milionair...

[2013/02/19 13:27]  herman Bergson: you will not become happier by that

[2013/02/19 13:27]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): short lived, perhaps

[2013/02/19 13:27]  Fred123 Aiten: why not?

[2013/02/19 13:27]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2013/02/19 13:28]  herman Bergson: Well Fred....

[2013/02/19 13:28]  Chuck Donardson: oversupply is the enemy of happiness

[2013/02/19 13:28]  herman Bergson: think of yourself...

[2013/02/19 13:28]  Fred123 Aiten: I think I would be happy to win the lottery

[2013/02/19 13:28]  herman Bergson: you buy a new car...

[2013/02/19 13:28]  herman Bergson: in the beginning you feel really cool about it....

[2013/02/19 13:28]  herman Bergson: but after a while it is just your car again

[2013/02/19 13:28]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: i guess

[2013/02/19 13:29]  herman Bergson: My point is....

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Fred123 Aiten: I would give lots of money to other people and their joy would make me happy

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: useful stuff can be nice to have

[2013/02/19 13:29]  herman Bergson: Aristotle thought that man longs for a state of eudaimonia...

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Debbie DJ (framdor): just more admin - rather just be nice to people now ;)

[2013/02/19 13:29]  herman Bergson: good spirit...

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: for ex my Galaxy S3 i have a lot of joy cause it os a tool that help me at work ect and that i always have with me

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: scedules communication ect

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: but still just a tool

[2013/02/19 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: a thing

[2013/02/19 13:30]  herman Bergson: what research shows is that every person really has such a state of mind....

[2013/02/19 13:30]  Lizzy Pleides: Happiness is always short lasting but it can be measured

[2013/02/19 13:30]  Debbie DJ (framdor): and it makes you work harder Bej.

[2013/02/19 13:30]  herman Bergson: Happiness is not short lasted Lizzy..on the contrary....

[2013/02/19 13:30]  Bejiita Imako: yes, i have some music in it while working along with work plans project list ect

[2013/02/19 13:30]  Bejiita Imako: really useful all in 1 thing

[2013/02/19 13:30]  herman Bergson: Joy is short lasted

[2013/02/19 13:31]  Bejiita Imako: but still just a device

[2013/02/19 13:31]  Bejiita Imako: i need friends to communicate with through that device and directly around me

[2013/02/19 13:31]  Bejiita Imako: just like i do with all of u through my computer now

[2013/02/19 13:31]  herman Bergson: You find the same idea in buddhism for instance...the idea of Aristotle's eudaimonia

[2013/02/19 13:31]  Bejiita Imako: the computer is just a way to reach all of you

[2013/02/19 13:32]  Bejiita Imako: and its you that make me happy

[2013/02/19 13:32]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Coming to this class and interacting here makes me feel happy for example...

[2013/02/19 13:32]  Bejiita Imako: ah „ã°

[2013/02/19 13:32]  Bejiita Imako: Its really nice

[2013/02/19 13:32]  herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...for you are recognized and accepted as a person here in SL by friends

[2013/02/19 13:32]  Bejiita Imako: ah „ã°

[2013/02/19 13:32]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): buddhism has wonderful ideas of happiness

[2013/02/19 13:32]  herman Bergson: No difference with RL here in that respect

[2013/02/19 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: no

[2013/02/19 13:33]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): much more sense than some western philosophers

[2013/02/19 13:33]  herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....

[2013/02/19 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: just like my S3 the computer is just the medium i use for communication

[2013/02/19 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: in the end i need real people

[2013/02/19 13:33]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): with practices to aid in moveing along

[2013/02/19 13:33]  herman Bergson: that is the same approach as Aristotle Gemma....

[2013/02/19 13:34]  herman Bergson: He said that you have to practice VIRTUE....

[2013/02/19 13:34]  herman Bergson: virtues like honesty, fairness, love and so on...

[2013/02/19 13:34]  Debbie DJ (framdor): It seems that if we please people we know, the results are stronger happiness, than pleasing strangers...

[2013/02/19 13:35]  herman Bergson: I wouldn't say that Debbie....

[2013/02/19 13:35]  herman Bergson: Bonobo apes even prefer to please a stranger over a known member of their group

[2013/02/19 13:35]  Debbie DJ (framdor): I wouldn't sit in the park and have such rewarding discussions with total strangers - no common ground.

[2013/02/19 13:36]  herman Bergson: To please a stranger...helping an old lady cross the road..might even make you feel better :-)

[2013/02/19 13:36]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Point taken...

[2013/02/19 13:36]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2013/02/19 13:36]  herman Bergson: But that is an amazing observation....we all feel that way....

[2013/02/19 13:37]  Lizzy Pleides: only when the old lady really wants to cross the road

[2013/02/19 13:37]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Lizzy

[2013/02/19 13:37]  Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[2013/02/19 13:37]  herman Bergson: grins

[2013/02/19 13:37]  herman Bergson: I would drag her to the other side just ti get the feel good experience :-)))

[2013/02/19 13:37]  Chuck Donardson: why did the old lady cross the road

[2013/02/19 13:37]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): sorry i crashed

[2013/02/19 13:37]  Debbie DJ (framdor): *************** G I G G L E S ***************

[2013/02/19 13:37]  Lizzy Pleides: lol

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Bejiita Imako: wb

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Debbie DJ (framdor): wb

[2013/02/19 13:38]  herman Bergson: Love to help old ladies cross the road ^_^

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Lizzy Pleides: and young ladies too i guess

[2013/02/19 13:38]  herman Bergson: ssshhh....

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Chuck Donardson: To makae the boy scout feel better

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):  GIGGLES!!

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Fred123 Aiten: lol

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[2013/02/19 13:38]  herman Bergson: Anyway....

[2013/02/19 13:38]  Bejiita Imako::-)

[2013/02/19 13:39]  herman Bergson: In general I get a rather positive picture of human nature so far....

[2013/02/19 13:39]  herman Bergson: To reveal you something....

[2013/02/19 13:39]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Right now, we look like a cheerful, helpful happy lot...

[2013/02/19 13:39]  Bejiita Imako: hehe true

[2013/02/19 13:39]  Bejiita Imako: :-)

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): until something or someone pushes our buttons

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hmm... I'm saying nothing

[2013/02/19 13:40]  herman Bergson: I am working on ideas about a next project after all this positive thinking about man...

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ooh

[2013/02/19 13:40]  herman Bergson: Subject will be "The origin of Evil" :-))

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Debbie DJ (framdor): that will dwell on the dark side?

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Chuck Donardson: his struggle to control...

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Debbie DJ (framdor): yes!!!

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Chuck Donardson: to be the alpha male

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Bejiita Imako: interesting

[2013/02/19 13:40]  Debbie DJ (framdor): time to put the devil in his place ;)

[2013/02/19 13:41]  herman Bergson: Really philosophically fascinating....

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Bejiita Imako: hehe

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2013/02/19 13:41]  herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....that fellow needs to be taught a lesson...

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Chuck Donardson: better the devil that you know ? :)

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lets try not to mention Ayn Rand

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Debbie DJ (framdor): gemma

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Debbie DJ (framdor):  ******* G I G G L E S ***********

[2013/02/19 13:41]  herman Bergson: He may thing k that it is all his doing...

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Bejiita Imako: hahahahahahaha

[2013/02/19 13:41]  Bejiita Imako: loooool

[2013/02/19 13:41]  herman Bergson: but there he is mistaken :-))

[2013/02/19 13:41]  herman Bergson: right Gemma..!!!!!

[2013/02/19 13:42]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i am sick of her

[2013/02/19 13:42]  herman Bergson: We just needed Ayn Rand.....

[2013/02/19 13:42]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me too Gemma

[2013/02/19 13:42]  Chuck Donardson: i need to know her better

[2013/02/19 13:42]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the only project we did not mention her was the first 100 philosophers

[2013/02/19 13:42]  Debbie DJ (framdor): ayn who?

[2013/02/19 13:42]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): never mind

[2013/02/19 13:42]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): lol

[2013/02/19 13:42]  Debbie DJ (framdor): ;)

[2013/02/19 13:42]  herman Bergson: Yes...her simplistic interpretation of human nature is a disaster

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2013/02/19 13:43]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we all feel that disaster now

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Debbie DJ (framdor): She doesn't make you happy Herman....

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): you want to talk about terribly unhappy human being.

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): look at Ayn

[2013/02/19 13:43]  herman Bergson: Yes we do Beertje

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: that we only are and should think of ourselfves

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: totally weird

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Chuck Donardson: She must have had good days

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Chuck Donardson: when helped across the road

[2013/02/19 13:43]  herman Bergson: Well. I guess I already have shown that THAT is NOT the basis of human nature

[2013/02/19 13:43]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Chuck when she was only 4 I guess

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): never

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): all conditional on something no doubt

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no one could help her across the road

[2013/02/19 13:43]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): lol

[2013/02/19 13:44]  Chuck Donardson: lol

[2013/02/19 13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): seh would take a train first

[2013/02/19 13:44]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): or walk across someone to get there.

[2013/02/19 13:44]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Gemma - lets not talk about....

[2013/02/19 13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): GIGGLES!!

[2013/02/19 13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[2013/02/19 13:44]  Bejiita Imako: hahah

[2013/02/19 13:44]  herman Bergson: OK....I guess we better continue with more merry things in SL now....

[2013/02/19 13:45]  herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation....

[2013/02/19 13:45]  herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):  Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Sounds good to me... Go and feel good some more ;)

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): thank you.

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): let's go party

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): just kidding

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Bejiita Imako: :-)

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Thanks Herman... Nice to have you back - and i had a great holiday thanks ;)

[2013/02/19 13:45]  herman Bergson: That's the spirit Faithfull :-))

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): i hope to see you at Kido Go, Herman

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Chuck Donardson: I must attend to shovelling, thank you Herman, friends,

[2013/02/19 13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i was sick the whole two weeks

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bronchitis

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Chuck Donardson: thanks Faithfull for the t

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): don't ruin that lovely suit, Chuck

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Bejiita Imako: aaaaw

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and a blizzard

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Bejiita Imako: poor Gemma

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh well

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): recovering

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Bejiita Imako: nice u r better now

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!  

[2013/02/19 13:46]  herman Bergson: yes...poor Gemma ...

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye   

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Fred123 Aiten: Many thanks Herman

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Bejiita Imako: hugs  

[2013/02/19 13:46]  Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Thanks Herman and Bye everyone

[2013/02/19 13:47]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[2013/02/19 13:47]  herman Bergson: smiles

[2013/02/19 13:47]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): that's it that's all

[2013/02/19 13:47]  herman Bergson: Nice discusion again today :-)

[2013/02/19 13:47]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2013/02/19 13:47]  Bejiita Imako: very

[2013/02/19 13:47]  Bejiita Imako: interesting

[2013/02/19 13:47]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): i'm just getting warmed up

[2013/02/19 13:47]  herman Bergson: smiles

[2013/02/19 13:47]  Bejiita Imako: cu soon again

[2013/02/19 13:47]  Debbie DJ (framdor): Faithfull - pace yourself hun... this happens twice a week ;)

[2013/02/19 13:47]  herman Bergson: We have a strict time schedule here Faithfull

[2013/02/19 13:48]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): good to know

[2013/02/19 13:48]  Faithfull (beckafaithfull): i'm a hungry ghost

[2013/02/19 13:48]  herman Bergson: Class never takes longer than about a 50 minutes...sometimes some longer

[2013/02/19 13:48]  Debbie DJ (framdor): bye friends, bye herman...

[2013/02/19 13:48]  herman Bergson: Bye Debbie :-)