459: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 24

Last night I watched the "The Mist". Maybe you know this movie made in 2007 and based on a novel of Stephen King.

A group of people gets trapped in a supermarket, besieged by horrible giant insects. There in a few minutes the whole debate on human nature comes passing by.

There is a religious fanatic, who scares the hell out of the people by claiming that this is the proof of God's wrath because of the wickedness of the sinful human being.

Then there is the man, who says "Look around! Take away the rules and men become animals, beasts!" In tears a young woman, the teacher in the village, exclaims: "No, that  can't be true. Man is good!"

In no time we got them all in line: man as sinner, man as beast and man as a good individual. Would the real man please stand up?!

We have arrived at an historical moment in the debate on human nature. I call it historical because evolutionary, psychological and neurobiological insights begin to reveal the facts, which show to be so closely related yo old philosophical insights.

It appears to me that man has known all ins and outs about human nature from the beginning of thinking, that is from the moment that he left magical and religious explanations of reality behind.

That is what Aristotle did. He tried to understand nature as it was in itself. No magic, yet some metaphysical assumptions, especially his belief in the TELOS of things.

"Telos" means goal, so his philosophy was teleological. All that exists has an intrinsic goal. The seed is potentially a tree and its actuality is being that tree eventually.

This is all very simplified but the basic idea is that when a human being is born it potentially can become a virtues person, which is the actuality of man.

It means, that intrinsically a human being in fact is driven, wants to become the real actuality of adulthood, which is being a person in eudaimonia, in balance with himself and his environment.

But there comes the religious fanatic…yelling "but we are all sinners!" And yes indeed we do not want to be an Egoist and yet it seems to be an Art not to be one.

How so? What is missing in this picture? Isn't Aristotle's idea  too individualistic. Maybe my moral behavior emerges from the desire to be good.

But what about a person, who just doesn't want to be good? Where are the moral rules? And where are the mandatory and reasonable standards  for all?

It was Immanuel Kant (1724 - 1804), who intended to mend this weak spot in Aristotle's philosophy. Kant is known for his theory that there is a single moral obligation, which he called the "Categorical Imperative", 

and is derived from the concept of duty. Kant defines the demands of the moral law as "categorical imperatives". Categorical imperatives are principles that are intrinsically valid;

they are good in and of themselves; they must be obeyed in all, and by all, situations and circumstances if our behavior is to observe the moral law. 

He believed that the moral law is a principle of reason itself, and is not based on contingent facts about the world. Accordingly, he believed that moral obligation applies only to rational agents.

Thus the complex machinery of our brain and the way it works, our human nature, was reduced to reason. Kant's theory was logical, but not very psychological, but yet it dominated ethics for the past two centuries at least.

Today however, in Western culture individual hedonism plays a part again and related to that our observation that we also are members of a society.

Thence we face the two sides of a coin with respect to human nature: the Aristotelian side and the Kantian side. Individual ethics and universal moral laws.

Is there something common to all human beings , that makes it possible for us not to be an Egoist?

The Discussion

[13:27] Debbie DJ: love

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: we want love yes

[13:27] herman Bergson: Not a bad observation Debbie....but..... (as always)

[13:28] StevenHow: not all ppl

[13:28] Debbie DJ: love transcends ego...at some times in our lives

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:28] Debbie DJ: yes.. thanks herman.

[13:28] StevenHow: :)

[13:28] Debbie DJ: so in this postulate, evil is the disobeying of the kantian imperatives?

[13:29] herman Bergson: Your remark is a hint for the subject of the next lecture Debbie....

[13:29] Debbie DJ: shhh

[13:29] herman Bergson: is there something like a universal ethics?

[13:29] Debbie DJ: The ten commandments are so for christians... and are not a bad set of rules...

[13:29] Merlin: Well earlier I thought an answer to one question was THE LAW

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm i would think there should be one but

[13:29] herman Bergson: What I find so interesting of Aristotle and kant....

[13:30] Merlin: Universal rules for society or something like that

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: more complicated then it sounds i guess

[13:30] StevenHow: there is common ground for sure but universal not so sure

[13:30] herman Bergson: Aristotle refers mainly to the limbic system of the brain

[13:30] herman Bergson: while Kant only relies on the prefrontal lobe

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: but they didn't know about the functions

[13:31] herman Bergson: that what I mean by referring to contemporary scientific findings about the human being..

[13:31] herman Bergson: No Lizzy....they didn't and that makes is so amazing....

[13:31] StevenHow: ops have to go herman sorry :( RL

[13:32] herman Bergson: ok Steven :-)

[13:32] Merlin: bye

[13:32] herman Bergson: Take care

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: bye Steven

[13:32] Vadaman: Bye Steven.

[13:32] Debbie DJ: bye steven

[13:32] StevenHow: thanks though and you :) bye guys

[13:32] Merlin: hehe I guess he's a married man

[13:32] herman Bergson: If you take the history of philosophy as the dairy of the thinking individual

[13:33] herman Bergson: then you read in it that we already understood from the beginning about human nature

[13:33] Vadaman: Please don't laugh about married men Merlin. (lol)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:33] herman Bergson grins

[13:33] Merlin: lol

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:33] herman Bergson: funny species merlin I agree :-)

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Theres a set of ethical and moral rules - marriage ;)

[13:34] herman Bergson: oh my ,yes Debbie....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well even that is interesting.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: when you look at different cultures and the phenomenon of marriage

[13:35] herman Bergson: and the set of moral rules that come with it

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] Debbie DJ: What is interesting is that it takes the form of a social contract, with community witnesses

[13:35] herman Bergson: animals just mate once in a season....humans do it differently :-)

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: not all animals

[13:36] Debbie DJ: Yes. We also take a long time to raise our children

[13:36] Merlin: There are some who pair for life but Im sure you all know

[13:36] herman Bergson: which are the lucky ones Lizzy :-)

[13:36] Merlin: Swans might be an example

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:36] herman Bergson: YEs there are Merlin....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Pelicans too

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: penguins are faithful

[13:37] MerlinMerlin nods

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] herman Bergson: Incredible Lizzy...when you see those huge colonies of penguins :-))

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: true

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: what i dont get is how they can see the difference, all pengiuns look the same and so does most other animals of the same race

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: no unique faces like we have

[13:38] herman Bergson: But to get back the the main issue..the philosophical understanding of human nature

[13:38] Debbie DJ: you didn't look close enough Bej

[13:39] herman Bergson: many philosophical ideas are correlated with the working of the brain areas

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: all bulldogs look the same to me ect

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: maybe some differences but a person i can see on distance who it is

[13:39] herman Bergson: That Bejiita is a very amazing fact....

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Try doing that in a foreign country, where the people look different...

[13:40] herman Bergson: and believe me...penguins can do the same :-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: But believe me...I was in Japan once....for a few weeks....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hmm there are some main characteristics but if i know a person no matter of asian or whatever i can see " there u are!"

[13:40] herman Bergson: and all the faces looked almost the same tome....

[13:41] Merlin: Yes that is a common thing

[13:41] Merlin: Or maybe less so in the modern world

[13:41] herman Bergson: But let's get back to our main subject here....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: my best friend is adopted from thailand for ex and even if we would be down there i would recognize him no prob

[13:42] herman Bergson: the fact that through history philosophers showed an understanding of human nature, where we now also have amore scientific one which confirms their insight 

[13:42] herman Bergson: That is what I see in the Aristotelian and Kantian views

[13:42] Debbie DJ: yay... the old guys were actually pretty smart...

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:42] MerlinMerlin smiles

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...when you think of it....an Aristotle 2000 years ago...

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: maybe over 2000 years they say Debbie was pretty smart..

[13:43] herman Bergson: So our next question is....is there hope for us.....

[13:44] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:44] herman Bergson: Oh I say already today that she is Beertje ^_^

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: that i hope

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hope

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] Merlin: Well you probably know my views on that

[13:45] Merlin: I dont want to depress everybody

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: yes..but I mean..over 2000 years the world is complete different..what we think here and now..did the people 2000 years ago the same

[13:45] herman Bergson: Do we go under in complete individualism or does our being a social animal save the world?

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: i think our social animal HAS to save the world

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Good question... but I kind of feel depressed about the likely answer ;(

[13:46] Debbie DJ: like merlin!

[13:46] Merlin: The big problem is that the consequences follow many years later

[13:46] Merlin: and they will become irreversible

[13:46] herman Bergson: The remark of Beertje implies that there seems to be some need for this world to exist

[13:47] Merlin: There is no such need

[13:47] Merlin: But I think that is what you will say too Herman

[13:47] herman Bergson: Are we a coincidence of are we more on this world or is this a senseless remark

[13:47] Debbie DJ: senseless sentence???

[13:48] herman Bergson: I would say....

[13:48] herman Bergson: we ARE.....

[13:48] herman Bergson: and whatever you think about it....

[13:48] herman Bergson: we have to deal with it :-))

[13:48] Debbie DJ: If we are all about hedonism, and feeling good, we need to learn to party better, at lower cost...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: maybee that

[13:49] Debbie DJ: like we do i sl ;))))

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:49] Debbie DJ: hey - sl could save the world!

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: always some fun in here

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:50] herman Bergson: ok then...on to the next lecture...is there a universal ethics...?

[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: sounds like an interesting subject

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: have been thinking about it a lot recently myself

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: thanks to YOU Herman

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] Merlin: Hang on, is this a whole new topic or a continuation of this one about Egoism?

[13:52] Debbie DJ: Thanks Herman, and the rest of you philosophers ;)

[13:52] herman Bergson: it still is a continuation of the same topic Merlin

[13:52] Merlin: Yes ok ty

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes i guess it is

[13:52] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.

[13:52] herman Bergson: No if there would be a new topic....

[13:52] Merlin: yes?

[13:52] herman Bergson: I am thinking about the existence of Evil....

[13:53] herman Bergson: The question "Why is there evil in this world?"

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: i have to go off unfortunately, good night everybody

[13:53] Merlin: Good night Lizzy

[13:53] Debbie DJ: I will be here for that series.....

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu lizzy

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: only good would be boring....

[13:53] herman Bergson: Which already seems to imply that we didnt master the art not to be an Egoist ^_^

[13:53] Debbie DJ: bye Liz

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hmm good question indeed

[13:54] herman Bergson: You have a point there Beertje!

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: is egoism evil? well a form of evil maybe, since u dont care about others

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: tricky

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and what is evil really?

[13:54] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

458: The Art Not to be an Egoist 23

When we look in the mirror we want to see a happy and content face, independent of the question whether this mirror in de presidential suite in a Hilton Hotel or in our own bathroom.

This was my last sentence of the previous lecture and it leaves us with a serious question: what is a happy and content face, what does it mean to "feel good", or to use Aristotle's term, enjoy the "eudaimonia"?

That is hard to say. It is not some predetermined quality of human nature. And for knowing what it means you need more than only a sharp and enlightened rationality.

Aristotle is here apparently in the same position as Larry Flint, the editor of Hustler, when he was sued. He provoked the judge by asking:"Can you give me a definition of pornography?"

"No I can not", said the judge, "but I recognize it, when I see it". And isn't it not the same with the Good? You can not exactly define it, but you recognize it as such, when you see it.

So, no exact definition perhaps. And there is a second problem. With ethics it is the same as with someone watching a soccer game on TV, or a lover, or a math student.

To know how it is done,  by far doesn't mean, that you can play soccer, make love or solve the math problem. Only through experience we learn, what feels good in the long run and gives meaning to our life.

Through sometimes tedious learning and practicing we understand how we can keep our feelings and ratio in balance. We need both for a good life.

You certainly know the simplistic description of human nature as being split up in rationality and feeling. The eternal debate that you should be rational….no! you should primarily follow your feelings.

When we are smart, we teach ourselves to get our lust and emotions and our rational insights into harmony. And we teach ourselves to be fair to other people. 

A life without respectability is hardly possible. We want to find respect and recognition in ourselves and want to experience this from people around us. These are two sides of the same coin.

After our birth we do not enter this world with a complete blank, a tabula rasa. We are part of the biological system of the primates and have, so to speak, our "instincts".

But achieving a fulfilled and rewarding life, can only be the result of a long learning process by education and training. In terms of Aristotle is means that we have to learn and train our good features, our virtues.

Virtues like fairness, honesty, compassion, respect, peacefulness, responsability. Aristotle never came up with a specific list or order of importance.

He thought of human nature as being a unity, a whole, that could be trained and educated to become a virtuous person with a character-solid identity.

Here we run into a few problems. Aristotle hadn't the slightest idea that spraying some Oxyticin in the nose of people can change social behavior seriously, virtue or not. Or the Millgram experiments or the behavior of camp guards.

An other problem with this Aristotelian character-solid identity is, that we don't like it. Just think! How tempting is it to a thoroughly virtuous human being?

What is so convincing in it, that I want to become one? Besides that, how realistic is it? Which human being can say of himself that he is 100% good, 100% virtuous?

Ok…to prevent that this lecture becomes to long, I leave it this….an open end to be resolved next Tuesday.

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you

[13:23] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:23] Debbie DJ: *•.¸♥MwAHh♥¸.•*

[13:23] Debbie DJ: - ill have to read the website

[13:23] Debbie DJ: darn...

[13:23] Gemma Allen: not sure about Aristotle all the time

[13:23] Andret Beck: Thank you prof ^^

[13:23] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:23] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:23] Vadaman: Thank you prof.

[13:24] Debbie DJ: thanks herman

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:24] herman Bergson: I guess the basic idea is very Greek....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:24] herman Bergson: The belief that you can be educated and educate yourself to become a virtuous person...

[13:25] Gemma Allen: or a warrior like spartans

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] Gemma Allen: the whole culture would shape you

[13:25] Debbie DJ: Virtuous is defined by the societal values in which you live.

[13:25] Fred123 Aiten: is there an agreed definition of virtuosity?

[13:25] herman Bergson: but as I said..Aristotle missed neurobiological and psychological knowledge we have today

[13:25] Gemma Allen: right

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes that was not known by then

[13:25] Debbie DJ: so evil is when these values are undermined by your actions

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: that could be a definition maybe

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:26] Andret Beck: (but who say us that being virtuous is the right path?)

[13:26] Debbie DJ: I thought that out yesterday ;)

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well here is in fact the problem I want to address Tuesday

[13:27] Andret Beck: (I would like to ask this question to Nietzsche ^^)

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ok hold on.....

[13:27] Fred123 Aiten: If I become a cannibal living in the jungle with other cannibals does that make me virtuous?

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: when your evil you do everything to hurt others so the total opposite of a virtuous person

[13:27] herman Bergson: First to respond to Andret....

[13:27] herman Bergson: I would say that there is no right path at all....

[13:28] herman Bergson: The idea of a right path is some metaphysical assumption about human nature...

[13:28] herman Bergson: soI think...a debate about the right path misses the point....

[13:28] Merlin: Interesting view Herman

[13:28] herman Bergson: But then what?

[13:29] Merlin: I dont disagree but some would disagree strongly

[13:29] herman Bergson: To talk about the "right" path is to talk about the human being as a product of evolution

[13:29] Debbie DJ: evil is different in different cultures - a cannibal is not evil within his own society.

[13:29] Debbie DJ: "right" is like normal or average...

[13:30] Merlin: It is contrary to most religions isn't it?

[13:30] Fred123 Aiten: but does that make it ok to be a cannibal?

[13:30] herman Bergson: we are talking about the right path...not evil atm

[13:30] herman Bergson: stick to the subject plz

[13:30] Debbie DJ: I use the idea of evil to illuminate right ;)

[13:31] herman Bergson: the point is that what you would call the "right " path regarding to virtues for instance is just basic behavior of primates

[13:31] Gemma Allen: HMMM

[13:31] Debbie DJ: I dont agree.

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:31] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:31] Debbie DJ: or rather, i am not convinced....

[13:32] herman Bergson: it has been shown that bonobo apes have a sense of ..at least unfairness

[13:32] Debbie DJ: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] Andret Beck: I also believe that animals, even wild ones, have a kind of "ethic"

[13:32] herman Bergson: what I mean is...us being more complex in brain structure have equal ideas and far more developed....

[13:33] herman Bergson: which we now call ethics

[13:33] herman Bergson: No Andret I am sorry

[13:33] Andret Beck: look at them while playing (Huizinga), they just pretend to beat each other

[13:33] Debbie DJ: In our previous ethics lecture, I think you concluded that ethics related to the normal values for a society?

[13:34] herman Bergson: as far as we know animals are not able to reflect on their behavior and evaluate it in terms of good and bad...they just follow instinct and learnt behavior

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: so a gang of bank robbers are ethical because in their society they are all the same?

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes fred. not your ethics, but true to the norm of their ethics

[13:35] herman Bergson: to call them robbers is already a moral judgement Fred..?

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: so ethical behaviours can be whatever you want it to be

[13:35] herman Bergson: There you have a point Fred....

[13:35] Debbie DJ: no - it is the norm for the society..

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: maybe you are ethical when you follow your own principles and values

[13:36] herman Bergson: also a typical remark Lizzy

[13:36] Andret Beck: well, Herman, I see animals differently. I think that they are not "random beings" and that the word "instictual" has been too over used

[13:36] Merlin: Yes I like what Lizzy said

[13:36] Andret Beck: (this is just my point of view)

[13:37] herman Bergson: SO far we have reached a point in our investigation of human nature that seems to tellus that it all depends on what we want individually...

[13:37] Debbie DJ: the evil bit has to be contrasted here. I put it to you that unethical societal behaviour is called evil. like terrorists are eveil for those terrorized.

[13:37] herman Bergson: so ...every person his own set of standards ...

[13:37] herman Bergson: we all know that that is not the case in our world...

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: so if I am part of the bank robbers gang and then hand the others over to the police, I am evil?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes from the aristotelian point of view..it is all about living a good live....fulfilled and rewarding....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: seems logical

[13:38] herman Bergson: From the point of view of the bank robber yes I would say :-)

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm tricky indeed fred

[13:39] Debbie DJ: i agree

[13:39] herman Bergson: but yet you still call them robbers fred....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: in their ethics you are evil but i guess in the general ethics that is the true good ur good

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the ethics that we all must try follow to make the world better

[13:39] Debbie DJ: yes... so looking at evil, makes me think that good is what is not evil

[13:40] herman Bergson: The idea of Aristotle was rather optimistic....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: its tricky

[13:40] Debbie DJ: ie normal societal behaviour that feels good

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and make all benefit on ot and be happy

[13:40] herman Bergson: he believed that eventually every human being wants to be a good human being....a virtuous human to live a life in harmony, in eudaimonia with his environment

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: that i guess is the general ethics standard

[13:41] herman Bergson: In real this doesn't seem to be the whole picture.....

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: but we haven't defined what being a good human being means

[13:41] herman Bergson: there is also something in ethics called "you OUGHT to do this or that"

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: its so tricky to try to define even if i d say i know the answer

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: very complex subject

[13:42] Debbie DJ: that is the bit added by governments or kings - to benefit their income ;)

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but basically a bit what i said there before

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: have to check a bit more on this

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but i know how i want the world to be

[13:43] Debbie DJ: how?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well Debbie....they misused this idea of moral obligation, I would say

[13:43] Gemma Allen: the whole world??

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: no wars no greed no starvation and everyone is happy and nice to each other

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: sadly thats not gonna happen it seems

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...that is more or less the point...

[13:44] Debbie DJ: and can the Randian bankers ever deliver that Utopia, I ask humbly?

[13:44] herman Bergson: We all know it could be like that and YET we don't act according to that idea

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: very true

[13:44] Gemma Allen: never

[13:44] Debbie DJ: as individuals we do - as groups we don't

[13:44] herman Bergson: No Debbie....Ayn Rand is a cultural major disaster...

[13:45] herman Bergson: a narrow minded view on human nature

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: I'm not sure that we do as individuals.

[13:45] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:45] Debbie DJ: - just baiting you Herman...

[13:45] herman Bergson: You caught a big fish Debbie ^_^

[13:45] herman Bergson: congrats :-))

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: one thing we need to do is stop blowing each other up with explosives and weapond as happens everywhere now

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Individuals to me seem to all strive to be happy

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes Debbie......and that will be our next question...

[13:46] Debbie DJ: but as groups - we blow each other up, and exploit each other.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Fred123 Aiten: happiness or wealth Debbie. Seems the latter to me is viewed as more important

[13:46] Andret Beck: well, I don't know whether we do so individuals or by group, you know, some times people act in a certain way only in order to communicate some thing to the group

[13:47] Gemma Allen: true

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] Andret Beck: so people act as individuals but only to communicate to the group

[13:47] Andret Beck: (for instance politicians ^^)

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Fred, we are under the mistaken illusion that wealth brings happiness.... despite the costs

[13:47] Fred123 Aiten: very true

[13:47] Debbie DJ: true andret

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: Wealth doesn't bring happiness at all...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: why have 100 million dollars if you cant buy stuff but just pile it up, and u cant buy friends

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: friends u get by being nice and social

[13:48] Gemma Allen: i would still like to try

[13:48] herman Bergson  grins

[[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: that i like happiness on the costs of your neighbor

[13:48] herman Bergson: me too Gemma :-))

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:48] Fred123 Aiten: I agree totally but wherever I look people are totally focussed on wealth

[13:48] Gemma Allen  GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: its crazy

[13:49] Debbie DJ: And of course - gross consumption is consuming our planet, and us ;(

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: more money more MOOORE MOOOOOORE!

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: thats all they want

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: true as well

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is plenty of research that shows that the accumulation of wealth does not increase your feeling of happiness.

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: today they make stuff so it should break and we have to spend more money to buy new things while the toxic scrap heaps grow

[13:50] Debbie DJ: cool thing in sl is you can behave like a monk in rl and buy all this cheap virtual stuff to satisfy your cravings ;)

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:50] herman Bergson: ok...when you give me a Mercedes I might feel happy about that.....but that feeling of happiness is not lasting...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hahahah yes

[13:50] Gemma Allen: and lots of freebies too

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:50] herman Bergson: after a month I just drive a big car

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aha

[[13:51] herman Bergson: It seems that every person has some kind of happiness level....

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i want mine to be as high as possible

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: you may feel unhappy or overjoyed...but eventually your feelings return to that old level

[13:51] Debbie DJ: I still think we should immediately change to a 4 day working week, and spend more time seeing our friends

[13:52] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:52] Debbie DJ: bejita

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie...:-)

[13:52] Gemma Allen: good idea

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: I like that idea Debbie

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Debbie DJ: it will cut our consumption too....

[13:52] Vadaman: lol

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: do we all have to take a cut in salary though?

[13:52] Qwark Allen: we are still in the 18th century idea of work

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: maybe

[13:52] herman Bergson: It all boils down to just redistribution of resources of this planet

[13:52] Debbie DJ: yes herman

[13:52] Qwark Allen: work the most possible, till you have no more strengths

[13:53] herman Bergson: we still are not yet able to do that

[13:53] Qwark Allen: then no mood for friends

[13:53] Debbie DJ: especially when you look at fractional reserve currency, and quantitative easing...

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:53] Gemma Allen: another issue

[13:53] Andret Beck: (Enlightment, Industrialization, Exlpoiting, super machines etc. and we are still not able to reduce are working? T____T)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: have to go soon party today at the corner

[13:54] Gemma Allen: bring requests

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: we have to feed many people who don't want to work

[13:54] herman Bergson: Like Clint Eastwood said "A man has to know his limitations" Andret :-)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:54] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:54] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:54] Andret Beck: ahaha .... yeah, I agree Herman ^^

[13:55] Qwark Allen: was really interesting class as usual

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:55] Andret Beck: the solution is inside you

[13:55] herman Bergson: Gemma rings the bell....our time is up ^_^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: to do what is expected in general like that i d have to be a super saiyan in rl to manage

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: but we are humans not saiyans

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: this was a wonderful lecture again!

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this good discussion again....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:55] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:55] Qwark Allen: ☆*¨¨* ♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''* ♥:*¨¨*☆

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

457: The Art Not to be an Egoist 22

The leading ideas in this series of lectures may become clearer and clearer to you. If not, let me tell you which they are.

With respect to understanding human nature the first leading idea is, that our ability for  moral behavior is based on natural, innate drives.

In other words, the homo sapiens is a moral being by nature and has a mainly cooperative nature and is not driven by selfishness.

The second leading thought is, that eventually we are not primarily driven by private greed, lust or interests, but by our self image.

That is, our actions are guided mainly by how we think of ourselves, also in relation to our fellowmen and how they think about us.

Therefore it isn't that bad at all when in a given situation we do not get what we longed for, or do not succeed in some plan.

It feels much worse when we are attack as a person, when our being, the person who we are, is questioned, when our self-esteem is hurt or destroyed.

Our existence is more than just our drives, reason and actions, otherwise how would you explain this sensitivity with respect to the person we think we are, or how we see ourselves.

You also could say that morality is not the simple product of our rationality, but it is a main characteristic of human nature.

These preliminary conclusions are not the result of findings of modern science. They are the basic ideas of Aristotle (384 - 322 BC).

Why is this man so important? With regard to our topic, the answer is simple: He was the first philosopher with a strikingly realistic view on human nature. 

As a biologist, he explored the interplay of our emotions, our will and our reason. As a philosopher, he observed, why we not just SHOULD be good, but also why it is tempting to WANT to be good.

Contrary to Plato, his teacher, Aristotle did not amalgamate Truth and Ethics. They don't belong together.

What truth is, is a matter of knowledge. What morals is, is a matter of experience. And while there are objective standards for truth, in logic and physics, with respect to moral ideas we are always dealing with subjective standards.

While sciences go for truth, you can't speak of truth in ethics. We do not get any further than concluding that something is plausible and that it makes sense to incorporate certain moral ideas in our actions.

Like his teacher Plato, Aristotle however could not resist to amalgamate, to intermix the order of nature and the order of human existence.

That, of course, is still a common view in certain believes, that the human being is just a part of one grand cosmic scheme.

If we are part of such a scheme it would enable us to point out, what we eventually have to be  or have to do, to be or become a true human being, the complete man.

This way of thinking was picked up after Aristotle in Western Culture by christianity and still lives on in such ideas as Intelligent Design.

However, Aristotle refrained from such farfetched ideas. For him the most important question only was: What is a good life? 

Is it limitless conceding to our animal nature? No, it is our need of fulfillment and sense. Living creatures that can have intentions 

and can think about their own intentions and those of others, long for a happy life. We all want a good life, the eudaimonia.

When we look in the mirror we want to see a happy and content face, independent of the question whether this mirror in de presidential suite in a Hilton Hotel or in our own bathroom.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: thank you ^_^

[13:21] Debbie DJ: so, where is the evil?

[13:21] Debbie DJ: good lecture prof.

[13:22] herman Bergson: yes Debbie...Evil is the subject of my next project

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:22] herman Bergson: a logical response

[13:22] herman Bergson: But I'll get to that in next lectures of course.....

[13:23] Debbie DJ: So if we are all good moral people desiring to be loved, why are there so many starving poor people in he world?

[13:23] herman Bergson: we all think of ourselves as being good persons...yet we know we now and then do harm to others...:-)

[13:23] herman Bergson: ok Debbie....

[13:23] Merlin: I was thinking a bit about this today, asking whether we are really so good in fact

[13:23] Merlin: OR....

[13:24] Merlin: Is it something we do when we are already happy and have something left to spare

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: really interesting stuff this for suer

[13:24] herman Bergson: I think we need to make a difference between the individual and the group....

[13:24] herman Bergson: I mean...as an individual you can be a moral person....

[13:25] herman Bergson: but as a member of a hedgefund you just kill companies and squeeze them for the profits

[13:25] Debbie DJ: Its like we want to be good and loved, but we NEED lots of STUFF to do that...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: when in a group u risk being pulled with the others into a nasty mob

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: the group pressure

[13:25] herman Bergson: that is the paradox Bejiita....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: to feel the force to do like the others to get accepted

[13:26] herman Bergson: for every member in the group can say that...I was pulled in...

[13:26] Merlin: Yes, and sometimes that peer pressure requires that people are bad

[13:26] herman Bergson: good point Bejiita...

[13:26] Debbie DJ: And to some extent, advertising manipulates our mob behaviour...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: thats a major problem in schools ext where some group bully others basically ruining their lives and in worst case forcing them to shift school or even move to another place

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: to be rich and beautiful seems to be more attractive than to be social responsible only

[13:27] herman Bergson: a good life is also t be recognized and respected by others

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: same prob on the internet, telling people nasty things and believe because u have the computer between its not as bad

[13:27] Merlin: I wish I could believe that Herman

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but its just as bad through a computer

[13:27] Merlin: People near me only look at outward appearances

[13:28] herman Bergson: What do you mean Merlin?

[13:28] Merlin: and some people are looking at our prosperity.....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: i hear all time now about "net hatred" where people tell others they are useless can go die and general threats on facebook and other media

[13:28] herman Bergson: Ah I see

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: the computer act like a barrier between it seems, big problem

[13:28] Merlin: I mean that being Good is not so well respected, or even recognized

[13:29] herman Bergson: True Merlin....

[13:29] Debbie DJ: Merlin, true, but being bad is quickly recognized.... or is it?

[13:29] MerlinMerlin smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: and that was a thing Aristotle didn't know at all...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: how a person can be influenced by advertisements etc...or even brain manipulation

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes thats also a factor

[13:30] herman Bergson: Aristotle had the idea that a person can develop character....which means ...guide his life by virtues

[13:30] herman Bergson: But I'll get to that next Thursday :-)

[13:31] Debbie DJ: Can it be that the nature of man is changing due to constant manipulation of people by corporate and government media?

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: very interesting Herman

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: id say could be very much possible

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: by certain 100 % sure about that

[13:31] Debbie DJ: yay thanks bejita

[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...there you hit a core issue...

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: yes Debbie you are right

[13:32] herman Bergson: We are trying to understand human nature in this series of lectures...

[13:32] herman Bergson: human nature....

[13:32] herman Bergson: question is...

[13:32] herman Bergson: has it been the same through all ages

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: look at north korea, the people have been isolated from internet ect and then brainwashed so that they believe they live in paradise then they in fact live in hell on earth

[13:32] herman Bergson: or not

[13:32] herman Bergson: as you say..

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: with Kim as the devil

[13:33] herman Bergson: is it now a product of manipulation etc?

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: they have another self image in north Korea

[13:33] Debbie DJ: western manipulation is no less than korea, just more subtle...

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: true Debbie

[13:34] herman Bergson: Let me put it this way.....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: also they barely can survive for the day, Kim's strategy in making them weak so he can manipulate them like dolls, if they survive that is

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: horrible!

[13:34] Debbie DJ: It is all about consuming faster and believing it is our right.

[13:34] herman Bergson: ok...let me put it this way...

[13:35] herman Bergson: about human nature....

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: we have to see through these tricky things debbie

[13:35] Debbie DJ: I wish I could Lizzy...

[13:35] herman Bergson: I always have wondered about it.....but when you listen to 99% of all songs...

[13:35] herman Bergson: they are about love...

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes!

[13:36] Debbie DJ: and most art is beautiful...

[13:36] herman Bergson: and when you look at the history of literature....and music...

[13:36] herman Bergson: nothing new there...

[13:36] herman Bergson: songs about love

[13:36] Debbie DJ: but herman - if you listen to death metal - there is no love...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] Debbie DJ: it is about death and destruction - the apocalypse and fire...

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Debbie and you also have those crime rappers or violence rappers...

[13:37] herman Bergson: but they come and go...

[13:37] Debbie DJ: post nuclear wastelands, hunger , and death

[13:37] herman Bergson: the love song is an ever lasting subject :-)

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: you can't hear that always

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: yes!

[13:37] Debbie DJ: yes... Like war and destruction - also everlasting ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:38] herman Bergson: TWo sides of a coin it seems regarding human nature

[13:38] Debbie DJ: definitely 2 sides to us....

[13:38] Debbie DJ: snap :)

[13:39] herman Bergson: But everybody loves love and everybody dislikes destruction, although it happens

[13:39] Debbie DJ: By focussing us on the moral good side, you have helped us more clearly see what evil might be....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yesa

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is..I prefer the positive look at human nature....

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: it influences our hormone balance

[13:40] herman Bergson: and so far I have been right....

[13:40] herman Bergson: we still exist

[13:40] Debbie DJ: I prefer love to hate....

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: of course

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: me too

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: Im a nice guy

[13:40] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:40] Debbie DJ: - i nearly said I hate hate

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:41] herman Bergson: Like every normal human being would debbie

[13:41] herman Bergson: good one

[13:41] Debbie DJ: got to be so careful with words around philosophers..

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Merlin: Yes Debbie and quite right too

[13:42] herman Bergson: no not with words...

[13:42] herman Bergson: they are just the wrapping of your ideas and thoughts :-)

[13:42] Merlin: Yeah, perhaps there are bigger pedants than philosophers

[13:43] Debbie DJ: I wouldnt pack a calm blue thought in a firey red wrapper

[13:43] herman Bergson: what is a 'pendant' Merlin?

[13:43] Debbie DJ: word nit picker...

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: pedant

[13:43] Merlin: Pedant, it's someone who is obsessive about accuracy

[13:43] Merlin: Yes Debbie

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: lioke keeping everything tidy and in order

[13:44] Merlin: Derives from schoolteacher I believe

[13:44] herman Bergson: ah in dutch we all such a person a "komma neuker"

[13:44] herman Bergson: lol

[13:44] Merlin: lol

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:44] Debbie DJ: that would be the editor....

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well, I guess you are ready for the lecture of next Thursday now :-)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: think so ㋡

[13:45] Merlin: hehe yes, after a bit of rest

[13:45] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation again....

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: you can start it right now, :-)

[13:45] Debbie DJ: I sure am.... Cant wait

[13:45] herman Bergson: unless you still have a burning question or remark

[13:46] Debbie DJ: I just want to say the recap tonight was most useful...

[13:46] herman Bergson: then...

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all