462: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 27

Is the willingness to wage war an intrinsic feature of human nature, in other words, where there are men there is war?

The answer is simple.  The answer is NO. All swans are white. Is that statement true? No, for I have found a black swan.

One day or another in history every people on this earth goes to war. Is this statement true? The answer is NO. There are about  a 70 peoples on this earth that use no violence, nor ever fought a war. http://www.peacefulsocieties.org

Yet there is the theory that it is in our genes to be aggressive. Such theorists always point at nature where male animals fight for and defend their females.

Then there is the territory theory. When early men were nomads they easily could avoid each other, but as we became farmers we developed land as our property that had to be defended.

And there always is enough aggression. With the "survival of the fittest" in hand some claim that aggression therefore prevailed in evolution.

Comparisons with the animal kingdom are popular but lack real proof. And the selfish gen at war to proliferate itself as much as possible, leads to peculiar questions.

Are the deepest drives for modern wars like Iraq, Afganistan, Libya at the end motivated by the drive of human nature to proliferate its genes?

Sure, almost all people are capable of aggression against others and many are also willing to use violence. But this is still far from a predisposition to war. 

War, and that is the whole point, is not particularly just the expansion of aggression with greater resources. An aggressive person is not  inevitably or by definition also a violent person.

Some turn their aggression for instance against themselves and become depressive. Others show it with mean looks, mean or angry remarks. 

And most of the time is our aggression against people in our immediate environment and not against nations. In that sense it shows that aggression is hardly enough drive to go to war against a people, that you not even know personally.

in other words, war is not just the escalation of a biologically dark side of human nature. No aggressive drive and no genetic fitness strategy is forcing us to attack our neighboring countries.

But if this all is true, then why are their yet wars in this world. First we may conclude that not a single war can be justified by saying: "Ah well, that is human nature. We can't help it."

The Swizz professor of ethology,  Jürg Helbling, of the university of Luzern gives us this explanation:

"The biological hardware and the biologically determined predisposition of man to violent behavior allows violent but also peaceful behavior, and it depends on the social and cultural software, how people actually behave."

War is not the unavoidable consequence of our human nature. Maybe you should listen more carefully to the propaganda…sorry, of course, we call it political opinions.

Then you learn the truth, for the mother of all wars is not the pursuit of evil and not the ruthless pursuing of  interests. It is the fear for our life and the perceived threat to our self-esteem.

And then, 20 September 2001, I hear US President George W. Bush. During a televised address to a joint session of congress, 

he stated that, "our 'war on terror' begins with al-Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated."

What is he installing in our brains? FEAR…and it works….

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: Bush is insane Id say, an agressive war starter, the first thing he did when he came to power whas to start mass execution of prisoners

[13:24] herman Bergson: \/

[13:24] herman Bergson: peace

[13:24] Gemma Allen: it will never be over

[13:24] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....it will

[13:24] Gemma Allen: i doubt it

[13:24] Gemma Allen: according to bush

[13:25] herman Bergson: it all depends on the willingness of all people on earth to coopereate....

[13:25] Gemma Allen: all terrorist organizations

[13:25] Gemma Allen: must go

[13:25] herman Bergson: manage their aggression...

[13:25] .: Beertje :.: i think there will be more war..not about oil..but about water

[13:25] Gemma Allen: and a terrorist is often in the eyes of the beholder

[13:25] herman Bergson: there may be wars in the near future...

[13:26] Gemma Allen: a terrorist can become prim minister

[13:26] Merlin: Yes Beertje, water will become a big issue soon for some people

[13:26] herman Bergson: but our question is...

[13:26] Gemma Allen: president

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: the danger of fighting back is that it might lead and did lead to more terror, like the Subway bombs in london

[13:26] herman Bergson: is mankind a bunch of egoists or is it a colony of cooperative beings...

[13:26] Gemma Allen: both i think

[13:26] herman Bergson: what will prevail in the long run??? THAT is the question

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but the tricky part is we still need to stop those terrorists cause they are totally insane

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: vary dangerous people

[13:27] Gemma Allen: again who is really a terrorist

[13:27] herman Bergson: Bejiita...

[13:27] Merlin: Well, you know my views about the long term prospects for mankind

[13:27] herman Bergson: We are not talking about such details...:-)

[13:27] herman Bergson: we know how our world looks like

[13:28] herman Bergson: we are talking about human nature and its future

[13:28] Gemma Allen: with hope

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: well i just hope that it is as u say that we are all sort of good on the insode

[13:28] Gemma Allen: i stil think the best thing for mankind would be invasion by aliens

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: I am 100 %

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just to give you some idea...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok

[13:28] Gemma Allen: we would be together fast!!

[13:29] herman Bergson: the number of people killed in wars has decreased during the centuries

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: right direction at least

[13:29] .: Beertje :.: 1 life is still too much

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: u cant value a life indeed

[13:30] herman Bergson: when everybody would think so Beertje we are on the right track

[13:30] herman Bergson: and many more people think so nowadays

[13:31] herman Bergson: Due to the internet the proliferation of knowledge and information is so big....

[13:31] herman Bergson: We all know that education is the key

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: how to make a bomb...yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: a coin has always two sides indeed Beertje

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: powerful medium, thats why china censor it so hard and north korea totally blocks it so the people cant learn that he is really a bad guy and what is really happening in the worrld

[13:32] herman Bergson: but you need only one fool to make a bomb while the majority of peole love to learn better things

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: information is the power of freedom

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: one fool started ww2..

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: true Bejita

[13:33] herman Bergson: no Beertje..that is historically incorrect...

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: we had many fools in history

[13:33] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:33] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: also with devices like my galaxy S3 i have acess to valuable information wherever I go, so i can keep myself always updated

[13:33] MerlinMerlin laughs

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: smiles

[13:34] Merlin: Are you being sponsored Bejiita?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Is that why your hair is always upright Bejiita...?

[13:34] herman Bergson: totally updated? :-)

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahaha no, just think it is the best one cause I'm so happy with it

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: i think there always be fools..not only in the past but always

[13:35] herman Bergson: You all didn't looked impressed by my explanation why there is war?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Was it that obvious to you all? ^_^

[13:36] Gemma Allen: i think so

[13:36] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson grins

[13:36] Merlin: I came across some extracts from The Naked Ape book today

[13:36] herman Bergson: I know I have a smart class :-)

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: i have to read it over I guess

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes u have ㋡

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: hmm..i'm not one of them..

[13:37] Merlin: Desmond Morris says some things about human conflicts

[13:37] herman Bergson: Desmond Morris, Merlin?

[13:37] Merlin: Yes :)

[13:37] herman Bergson: then keep in mind....

[13:37] herman Bergson: on the one hand there is aggression in the individual..

[13:38] herman Bergson: and on the other hand there is collective aggression: war

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:38] herman Bergson: and then, how an author tries to link these two

[13:39] herman Bergson: My conclusion is that we are manipulated into a war by a ruling class that wants to protect its interests..or even EGO

[13:39] Gemma Allen: there you go

[13:39] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa very much possible

[13:39] Merlin: Well I think that was true of WW1

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: brainwashed

[13:39] herman Bergson: And that class does that by playing on our sentiment of fear...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: or similar

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and u can clearly see that with groups like al qaida

[13:40] herman Bergson: Sadam Hussein should have had weapons of mass destruction....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: Jihad

[13:40] herman Bergson: he had oil.....that was the point

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes thats also a theory

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: Usa wanted the oil

[13:41] Gemma Allen: i am nto sure of that oil thing we have never benefited from the oil

[13:41] herman Bergson: He had taken Kuweit (oil)...that was the point

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: of course herman, i agree

[13:41] Gemma Allen: in over 10 years now

[13:41] Gemma Allen: and we wont

[13:41] Merlin: I never thought Oil was a credible explanation for the Iraq war

[13:41] herman Bergson: No Gemma.....but Europe needed that oil

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: well every american are addicted to their cars and the entire society is circulation around it

[13:41] Gemma Allen: but we didn't care about that

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: u need a car to go from place to place cause great distances

[13:41] Merlin: Yes they are Bejiita

[13:41] Gemma Allen: i don't believer that part

[13:41] herman Bergson: th eUS gets its oil from Veneuela and Saoudi Arabia

[13:42] Merlin: Yes Bej, it is not even safe to walk out in the street there

[13:42] Gemma Allen: we are now supplying more of our own oil that never before

[13:42] Gemma Allen: here in the us

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: nope even here in sweden people drive like maniacs

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes indeed Gemma

[13:42] Gemma Allen: and now have mucho natural gass

[13:42] Gemma Allen: enough to export

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: id say we have gone from industrial through IT and now we live in the stress and consumption society

[13:43] herman Bergson: that broke down Bejiita....

[13:44] herman Bergson: ever growing consumption is no issue anymore

[13:44] Gemma Allen: well i wonder about that

[13:44] herman Bergson: they talk about consumer's thrust here.....

[13:44] Gemma Allen: agriculture for the world is becoming an issue

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: maybe a bit halted now however still everyone need the latest even of what they have works and when some new thing comes out they jump in the car and drive like maniacs to get it

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: we are all living in a system that forces us to consume

[13:45] Merlin: Galaxy S3?

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: lol Merlin

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy....but in the Netherlands the consumer's trust is down....

[13:45] Merlin: (whatever that is)

[13:45] herman Bergson: it means...people dont buy new things anymore...

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: haha yes but ai boy things i expect them to last a while, i will not rush for the S4 now for ex

[13:45] herman Bergson: keep their money in their purse

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: our taxsystem is based on consumption and economic growth

[13:46] Merlin: hehehe

[13:46] Gemma Allen: i think that wiol change

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and my TV i ve had since i moved in and still works so shy throw it away

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: why

[13:46] Merlin: I know one reason.....

[13:46] Gemma Allen: well because there are such better ones now

[13:46] Merlin: Stop watching telly!

[13:46] Gemma Allen: adn they use less power too

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: my monitor broke...and I repaired it myself..for 5 euro..:)

[13:47] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: one can learn how to repair things

[13:47] Gemma Allen: good for you

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: wow great beertje!

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: thats nice

[13:47] herman Bergson: wow ...cool Beertje :-)

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: i bring you an old from me

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: grins

[13:47] herman Bergson: I guess that is why you look so good today...and that for only 5 euro :-))

[13:48] Gemma Allen: collects fixebles to mail to beertje

[13:48] herman Bergson: I'll mail you an old monitor myself Beertje :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: smiles...condensators?..broke..they are build for 3 years..then the will brake down

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: i just put some new in.

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: that is true Beertje

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well

[13:49] herman Bergson: we are so far off subject now....

[13:49] Gemma Allen: i would break anything trying to fix it

[13:49] Merlin: Oh you mean electrical capacitors Beertje?

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: have never had condenser probs though but i have seen cases

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: some LEDs are made for 1000 hours only

[13:49] herman Bergson: Next lecture will be on inexpensive monitor repair

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:49] herman Bergson: presented by Beertje :-)

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: Hahahaha..... ㋡   

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: my amplifer i've had very long even before i moved in and still run like a charm

[13:49] .: Beertje :.: lol

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: some really bog ones in there

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: big

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: however they can dry out

[13:49] herman Bergson: You can do it Beertje :-))

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: no:)

[13:50] herman Bergson: Anyway...thank you all again for your participation

[13:50] Merlin: You could do it on the Wednesda

[13:50] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:50] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe this was great

461: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 26

Edvard Westermarck (1862 -1939), a finnish philosopher and sociologist,  argues in his book  "The Origin and Development of Moral ideas" (1908) : 

Moral behavior is a biological phenomenon, a total of contradicting instincts, which can lead to totally different standards from society to society.

There is not such a thing as an absolute anchor point. There is no moral "Law" inside of us, no mandatory Maxim nor transcendental Golden Rule, which makes us to human beings.

Ethics don't need universal principles.. Anthropological research has never come up with a clear answer about the existence of universal ethical rules.

That every culture has indeed an idea of Good and Evil, doesn't tell us anything about what is regarded as good and evil. 

In one culture, it is good to show your true identity by not covering your face. In an other culture it is regarded as bad, when a woman exposes her face in public.

The situation may be like this: some jokes might make people laugh in all cultures, others aren't understood at all in other cultures.

In all cultures people say "I love you", but we all know that when people of different cultures, start a relation, we may face serious problems regarding this "I love you". 

Like "when you love me, we walk everywhere hand in hand" and "when you love me, you walk one meter behind me everywhere we go".

Why would this be different when we are dealing with moral concepts? In 1971 John Rawls published  his "A Theory of Justice", in which he in a Kantian way claimed that "most reasonable principles of justice are those everyone would accept and agree to from a fair position."

In fact I have the same critique here as with Kant. The more logical the argumentation becomes, the further away it moves from our psychological reality.

In 1982  Michael Sandel published a critique of John Rawls' A Theory of Justice in his first book, "Liberalism and the Limits of Justice".  

His basic point is, that a person is, who he is, because he lives in an environment, a context, in which he makes himself who he is by the permanent interaction with others.

As such, as a homo sapiens, as a member of humanity or as a rational being, he isn't obliged to anything. 

He can act as he likes. However, as a member of a group, community, society, he learns the difference between good and evil, and this shapes his self image and sense of self-esteem.

Thus, all our moral ideas don't emerge from under the "veil of ignorance" as Rawls  claims, but they emerge in a community.

Our standards and values don't come out of a vacuum, but are shaped by the context we live in. We can accept them, or fight them, but we stay "imprisoned" in our context.

If formulated this way, relativists score a few points. Different cultures, different rules of play. But Sandel and others yet formulate some general idea:

From the Aristotelian point of view, every human being in every culture, whatever culture it is, strives for a fulfilled and rewarding life.

And a fulfilled and rewarding life for all men is bound to the same condition: a positive self image and self-esteem.

The context may be different. A farmer in the Middle Ages would regard the absence of hunger and disease as a fulfilled life, and the hope, that God looks upon him with a smile, may be his positive self image.

A fulfilled life depends on how our needs are met, not only the physical but also the mental, like our need for love, beauty, truth, sense.

And many of these needs are related to others. They get met by us by being  a better lover, partner,friend, by willing to help others and so on.

Whether our needs are mainly egoistic or mainly altruistic, does not simply depend on human nature, but also on our context, the culture we live in.

In countries like the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden we live in the most egoistic and solicitous culture. The ads, commerce expects the egoism of the individual.

And we expect the altruistic, solicitous attitude from the state.

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman!

[13:24] Debbie DJ: Great lecture Herman

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes nice

[[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours

[13:24] Oceane: great lecture Herman :)

[13:24] Debbie DJ: By doing such a good job, you must get a lot of self esteem ?

[13:25] herman Bergson  smiles

[[13:25] herman Bergson: In fact you are right debbie....

[13:25] herman Bergson: To tell you the truth...

[13:25] herman Bergson: I graduated in philosophy in 1978

[13:25] Jarapanda Snook: So, we are conditioned by our environment...

[13:25] herman Bergson: then I lectures on it for 10 years....

[13:26] Oceane: so what was your thesis about then?

[13:26] Oceane: your graduation work?

[13:26] herman Bergson: in 1986 I switched to teaching computer classes....leaving my love behind so to speak

[[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:26] herman Bergson: My thesis was about the Mind - Body problem...

[13:26] Oceane: as in Heidegger?

[13:27] Oceane: Sein and Zeit, Time and Being?

[13:27] Jarapanda Snook: ... and our ethical stance is driven by the environment we grow up in

[13:27] herman Bergson: in 2007 I thought...reading books is dull...always been a teacher... so I started the Philosophy Class in SL

[13:27] herman Bergson: true Jara

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: sorry I'm late

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hi Beertja

[13:27] Debbie DJ: If this is all so simple, how do we get so confused in the world? As groups we often make decisions which badly effect others, or are contrary to our long term interests?

[13:27] Oceane: hello Beertje?

[13:27] Debbie DJ: Hi Beertje?

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: hi:)

[13:27] Oceane: :)

[13:27] Oceane: nice to see you :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: Hypothetically.....

[13:28] herman Bergson: what I said was that ethics function within a cultural context....

[13:28] herman Bergson: of course based on our biological make up...

[13:28] Jarapanda Snook: so it's nature and nurture

[13:28] Oceane: how do you mean it.. like the way you explained in this class tonight?

[13:29] Debbie DJ: yes... a local culture has a stronger influence I guess...

[13:29] herman Bergson: theoretically you could infer then that this whole planet had only one culture....

[13:29] herman Bergson: all ethical standards would be universal

[13:29] Oceane: well that would be pretty boring wouldn't it... ;)

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:29] Jarapanda Snook: should ethics transend cultural barriers?

[13:30] herman Bergson: It does'nt Jara....

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Some should definitely Jarapanda...

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Like murder is a nono.

[13:30] herman Bergson: even Human rights are a product of Western culture...

[13:30] Oceane: what does transcend means? I don´t know the word in this context?

[13:30] herman Bergson: not adopted by other cultures

[13:30] Oceane: thank you herman

[13:31] Jarapanda Snook: well, where does murder and judicial killing or by the military differentiate?

[13:31] herman Bergson: it means that it would be above and independent of a specific culture Oceane

[13:31] Debbie DJ: transcend means "rise above"

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] OceaneOceane nods

[13:31] herman Bergson: Take murder.....

[13:31] herman Bergson: in our opinion murder is not allowed....

[13:32] Oceane: unless in warfare lol

[13:32] herman Bergson: but in other cultures you may kill your neighbor when he looked at your wife

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: can murder ever be right? id say no

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: thats a sick culture then

[13:32] herman Bergson: then it is not murder but revenge

[13:32] Oceane: agrees to Bejita.. there is only one exception Bejita

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: same with these religious fanatics blowing everyone u

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: up

[13:32] Jarapanda Snook: who says so? If you go back 1000 years then slaughter was commonplace - in the days of the Vikings for example - in those times it was regarded as a rite of passage

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: really sad

[13:33] Oceane: if somebody is threatening your life you can try to kill him or at least hit him subconsciously

[13:33] Debbie DJ: The only thing we ever have is life, and taking another life is just stupid, and self defeating.

[13:33] herman Bergson: that is what I mean....

[13:33] Oceane: agrees to Debbie

[13:33] herman Bergson: killing an other person is not always labeled morally as murder

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:33] Jarapanda Snook: so it is in the context of the culture that defines ethics...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: so tricky this

[13:34] Oceane: but in fact it is herman you take a life.. its murder.. at least to my standards of morality

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes it is how a specific culture values a human life

[13:34] Jarapanda Snook: and different times and cultures will define what is ethically right or wrong...

[13:34] Oceane: no thats how members of peace movements view life for instance herman+

[13:34] Jarapanda Snook: so how can ethics be universal?

[13:35] Debbie DJ: OK, so that is why groups of people attack other groups of people - cultural dissimilarities?

[13:35] herman Bergson: That is what I said in this lecture Jara...the answer is "no"

[13:35] herman Bergson: Due to differences in culture

[13:35] Debbie DJ: I agree there are probably no universal ethics... but some are near universal....

[13:35] Oceane: #I don´t know Debbie.. I think most of it its their big Ego which has grown to big instead of being modest

[13:35] Jarapanda Snook: its deeper than that Debbie - it goes back to primordial times , when we had to fight to survive

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...often a reason

[13:36] Oceane: yes Jarapanda in former times you had only four ways...

[13:36] Jarapanda Snook: so it is instinctive in us to protect our own, and this often means against those who are different

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is only a partial explanation Jara...

[13:37] Debbie DJ: I think we are past the old times.... our sheer numbers mark us as successful. But we are not able to fight against the gods of money and oil ;)

[13:37] Jarapanda Snook: please elaborate Herman...

[13:37] herman Bergson: due to cultural development we are not that primordial anymore

[13:37] herman Bergson: As is said in a previous lecture....

[13:37] Oceane: Debbie are we really past the old times? In former times people fought for water nd land, has that really changed soo much?

[13:37] herman Bergson: it is the battle between the limbic system and the prefrontal cortex in the brain here

[13:38] Oceane:

[13:38] Jarapanda Snook: however sophisticated we become we are not much changed from the cave men

[13:38] herman Bergson: I tend to disagree here Jara:-)

[13:38] Oceane: civilization is a very thin cover Jara ;)

[13:38] Jarapanda Snook: and we have their instincts

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Oveana. Nope. just the scale, and our inability to curb our self destruction through excess.

[13:38] herman Bergson: To give you an example

[13:39] herman Bergson: the caveman just killed his disabled child

[13:39] herman Bergson: we don't do that anymore

[13:39] Oceane:

[13:39] herman Bergson: so we made at least some progress

[13:39] Jarapanda Snook: absolutely - and we would expect that in a modern society...

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: we kill our disabled child before it's born these days....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Let me give you an other example....

[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: but inside us we still have that bit of xenophobia

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: yes Beertje

[13:40] herman Bergson: for us is the integrity of our body a moral value...

[13:40] herman Bergson: nobody has the right to do you physical harm

[13:41] Oceane: well lol

[13:41] Debbie DJ: except the military :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: yet....when you happen to live under the Sharia...everyone there agrees that your hand should be cult of when you have stolen

[13:41] Oceane: definetely right Debbie- except the military :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Military and war is an extra chapter Debbie

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: but sharia is no moral what i can see its just barbarism all through

[13:41] Oceane: I would love to hear a lesson about it Herman :)

[13:42] Debbie DJ: and if you live anywhere with oil, expect to be bombed into submission by the first world...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok ...next one will be about the question why we YET make war

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: brain washed fundamentalists doing as much harm to others as they can for power

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: thats sharia to me

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: giving war and misery as result

[13:42] Oceane: smiles, thank you Herman :)

[13:42] Jarapanda Snook: The military is deputized by society to do it's dirty work...

[13:42] herman Bergson: No Bejiita....

[13:43] herman Bergson: in your statement you are judgmental about another culture from tyou own perspective

[13:43] Oceane: I can´t attend unfortunately to your next lesson because I am hosting a poetry event but can I have your chat log off it?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: i would not wanna live in a place where there was sharia laws

[13:43] Debbie DJ: I never deputized the military.... and will not. Especially not the agressors.

[13:43] herman Bergson: no no,,,me neither...nor do I approve it...

[13:43] Jarapanda Snook: but it would be hopeless if we had no military... because someone else surely would be able to exert their power over us

[13:44] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Jara...but in a world like ours is today it is more complicated....

[13:44] Debbie DJ: fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[13:44] Jarapanda Snook: lol Debbie

[13:44] OceaneOceane experienced military when you are on a demonstration for peace and they come with throwing water thrower in tanks on you.. and you have to rescue little children

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hahaha sort of

[13:45] herman Bergson: Economic force and power or cyber power are even stronger than blunt military force is some occasions

[13:45] Debbie DJ: fighting for peace is an oxymoron, technically.

[13:45] Jarapanda Snook: and will be the battlefield in any future conflicts Herman

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:45] Oceane: what is an oxymoron?

[13:45] herman Bergson: a rare word :-)

[13:45] Oceane: grins but the meaning?

[13:45] Debbie DJ: two words that conflict in the same sentence...

[13:45] herman Bergson: kind of contradictio in terminis

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: a paradox

[13:46] Debbie DJ: like a paradox

[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: an oxymoron is an expression which defies itself

[13:46] herman Bergson: nicer...paradox

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: exactly

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Military Intelligence - for example ;)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Oh..just one remark of our progress with respect to the caveman ...

[13:46] Oceane: well you have to fight for your right of telling other your opinion .... thats the way I experienced it when we were marching against nuclear power plants

[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: lol Debbie - although Intel has a different meaning there

[13:47] herman Bergson: in stead of invading a country we take economical measures against it...like against Iran for instance

[13:47] herman Bergson: nice one Debbie :-)

[13:47] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:47] Oceane: well nobody knows what the Iran is doing, are they working on nuclear missiles.. will this be a threat to the western world...?

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Debbie DJ: If they are, can you blame them?

[13:48] Oceane: can you please explain it Debbie?

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: a bit worried about north korea though, that guy seems so insane he if anyone could start a nuclear war for sure and destroy the entire world

[13:48] herman Bergson: Depends on the motives Debbie....

[13:49] herman Bergson: If they are anti semitic I have a problem with it and can blame them

[13:49] Debbie DJ: If Iran is making nuclear weapons, can you blame them? after america invaded iraq, and afgahnistan?

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and he have nuclear bombs already

[13:49] herman Bergson: because I value equality

[13:49] Oceane: nods to Bejiita, I've seen an interview about him, but can you trust our medias?

[13:49] Debbie DJ: Yes. There are still thousands of nukes armed and ready. MAD has not gone away...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: also look at how he threats his people, cutting them of from the world and let them starve to death while he blows nuclear weapons

[13:49] herman Bergson: I would say 'No' Oceane :-)

[13:50] Oceane: smiles to herman

[13:50] Oceane: :)

[13:50] herman Bergson: Well...I think we have saved the world again today :-)

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: scary story

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: how so

[13:51] Debbie DJ: You have indeed Prof Herman...

[13:51] Oceane: smiles ..

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hope

[13:51] Oceane: great tuition Herman, tzthank you so much I learned alot in here

[13:51] herman Bergson: When I post our discussion in the blog it might enlighten some people on this earth...whoo knows :-)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Debbie DJ: Another day and we move closer to fixing the world , and revolution...

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: we better do!

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: Ok..Last remark for Jara...

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: we´ll do our best

[13:52] Jarapanda Snook: When I grew up we has a constant threat of nuclear war - I think it has reduced significantly now. North Korea may way start something up against SK, but the major powers are more likely to squash it than proliferate it nowadays

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed Jara.....

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hmm hope so indeed

[13:53] herman Bergson: As I child I was instructed to go and sit under the stairs when the bomb would fall :-)

[13:53] Debbie DJ: Jara - there are thousands of nukes still deployed!

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nuclear weapons is a nightmare

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: shudders

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: horrible stuff

[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess we'd better end our discussion here ^_^

[13:54] Oceane: smiles

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: I think that Herman and I are of a different generation, and that it really is much less of a threat now - I remember the Cuban Missile crisis!

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa the cuba crisis yes

[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: Thanks, Herman

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: then was really close

[13:54] herman Bergson: I watched in on TV jara..I am 63 in RL

[13:54] Oceane: thanks _Herman :)

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: was something like wargames

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: dont remember the exact story

[13:55] Debbie DJ: http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/nukestatus.html

[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: only they were about to press the button... it was a while before the populus knew that

[13:55] herman Bergson: yes was scary..... Kennedy and chroetsjev..

[13:55] Oceane: Would anybody mind if I do a chat log for my learning purposes and give this to my Mentor as part of my studies?

[13:55] Debbie DJ: This link, like many others, shows how real nuclear war still is. we just ignore it these days.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: yes thank god they didn't

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: then we would not be here today and the planed all dead maybe

[13:56] Jarapanda Snook: go ahead Oceane

[13:56] Oceane: thank you Jara :)

[13:56] Jarapanda Snook: Herman puts all this on his weblog anyway

[13:56] herman Bergson: That is ok Oceana...

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: neetd to check it up

[13:56] Debbie DJ: there are more than 17000 nukes deployed according to this page.

[13:56] herman Bergson: the discussion is also posted on our weblog of the philosophy class

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaaa wow i see its a terribly lot

[13:56] Oceane: ah okay so we can chat log any discussion here?

[13:57] herman Bergson: Not here in Wainscot Bejiita.....

[13:57] herman Bergson: so...

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:57] herman Bergson: and Class dismissed ^_^

[13:57] Jarapanda Snook: Thanks Herman

[13:57] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hehehe no hopefully far from here

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:57] Oceane: smiles and waves goodbye :)

[13:57] Debbie DJ: thanks herman - stimulating as usual ;)

460: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 25

Before embarking on the question, if there can exist something universal in human nature, based on the idea that biologically and physiologically we all have the same brain,

I want to bring to your attention, that all our efforts to understand human nature and thence the possibility of moral behavior, is not just an intellectual game or just non-committal interest.

Let me draw for you the whole picture as I see it. Roughly, you can distinguish two brain areas: the limbic system, which evolved in early mammals to control fight-or-flight responses and react to both emotionally pleasurable and painful sensations,

and the prefrontal cortex. The most typical psychological term for functions carried out by the prefrontal cortex area is executive function. 

Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, 

future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social "control" (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially unacceptable outcomes).

In my previous lecture I associated the limbic system with Aristotelian thinking and the prefrontal cortex with Kantian thinking, moral behavior based on drives and intentions and  moral behavior based on a sense of duty.

Then this morning I read the headline "Man is apparently not so rational after all". Who has attended my lectures for some time now, may not even blink. I have already pointed several times at this fact.

But the writer of the article is talking about economists and how they, before the rise of behavioral economics, regarded man as an individual that made decisions based on rational considerations.

Just take this example. Ask someone how much he will pay for a nice present. Say, it is 10 dollar. You sell it for 10 dollar. Then ask him to sell it back to you. Eight out of ten would ask more than 10 dollar for that.

Possessing something makes it suddenly more valuable, it appears. They call it "loss aversion", which also might explain why housing prices rarely decline to market clearing levels. Irrational of course.

Ask someone what he want…..10 dollar now …or 20 dollar next week. Most people seem to take the 10 dollar. The present seems to have greater value than the future. Als irrational.

And we are so easily manipulated. Happens every day. A book priced 19.99 dollar sells, the one priced 20.00 dollar doesn't. 

What consequences  has this for a government? Should the government base policies, rules and regulations on the optimistic illusion, that people are mainly rational beings?

Or should the government rely on the truth who we really are: manipulable,  conservative, short term thinkers, who also poorly calculate?

It is interesting to look at things from this perspective. At least in the Netherlands for every employee it is mandatory to participate in a pension fund. Leave it to the workers themselves and you'll may expect problems  at old age.

On the other hand, the Department of Housing has approved of a kind of mortgage, which creates lower monthly payments for starters on the housing market.

This to get something moving again in this dead market. However, lower monthly payments, but after 30 years the mortgage is not paid off, 

like would be with a decent mortgage and higher monthly payments. Only 50% is paid off and you are left with a debt of about a 100.000 euro or more!

This is aiming at our weakness of short term thinking for a short term political and economical goal. "This is going to cost consumers a lot of money", was said to a spokesman of the Department of Housing.

"We know", he answered, "but people don't need to buy such a mortgage. They have a choice and they will make that choice deliberately."

Here you see how human nature and politics come together. Put this in the perspective of slogans like "Less government" or "Not the free market is the problem, the government is the problem."

What government do you choose, one which bases its politics on who we hope to be - thinking people who make more or less rational choices, or one which bases it policies on who we really are?

As you see, you find our modern philosophical issues in your morning newspaper, which tells you about all national and international news.

So let's repeat our next question: does the apparent biological and physiological resemblance of brains also imply at least a promise of some kind of universal moral understanding?

The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:25] Debbie DJ: I feel manipulated ;)

[13:25] Debbie DJ: Thanks Herman

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:25] Merlin: The problem with long term thinking is that sometimes 'Tomorrow never comes', and especially younger people will think that way.

[13:25] herman Bergson: I can imagine Debbie :-)

[13:26] Merlin: There is a saying, A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: tomorrow doesn't exist..it's always now..

[13:26] Merlin: meaning that certainty now is more valuable than a promise for tomorrow

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Yes merlin, and financial tools discount future values due to uncertainty...

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Merlin...and you are right Beertje....that is our basic mistake

[13:27] herman Bergson: so take the 10 dollars:-)

[13:27] Debbie DJ: And let the government worry about the future on your behalf...

[13:27] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:27] herman Bergson: My basic issue here is that in our brain there is a constant battle going on

[13:27] Merlin: yes, that £10 / £20 thing .... you have to ask, 'can you believe the promise?'

[13:27] Gemma Allen: is true

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Merlin...uncertainty....

[13:28] Debbie DJ: Some of the promises made daily, especially via advertising, are very rich - and unbelievable

[13:28] herman Bergson: that is exactly what is going on in our minds...

[13:28] herman Bergson: on the one hand...

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: politicians get votes with little presents and promises which concern our short term thinking

[13:29] herman Bergson: rationally you would say...waiting one week delivers me 200%...

[13:29] herman Bergson: but then there is that feeling of uncertainty.....fear...

[13:29] Merlin: Regarding the link between our thinking and economics, I noticed that when they replaced the £1 note with a small coin it caused people to spend more freely.....

[13:29] herman Bergson: so you grab the 10 bucks

[13:29] Merlin: Inflation!

[13:30] Debbie DJ: there is a scale factor here... size. If it is an insignificant amount - it is easier to take the risk of losing..

[13:30] herman Bergson: Makes me think of what I observed last week...

[13:30] Merlin: But Debbie, isn't that another example of illogical thinking?

[13:31] herman Bergson: a kid if 6 had a 2 5 euro bills...

[13:31] Merlin: If you think a horse is worth a bet, it should be worth a big bet

[13:31] herman Bergson: the mother wanted to give the kid a 10 euro bill for she needed the 5 euro bills

[13:31] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:31] Gemma Allen: i can see it coming

[13:31] herman Bergson: Hell broke loose..

[13:31] herman Bergson: Impossible deal....:-)

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Yeah Merlin. Some people even go gambling ;) tax for people who cant calculate ;)

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: of course..he had 2 bills and mother offered just 1

[13:32] herman Bergson: Exactly...:-)

[13:32] herman Bergson: the number 5 or 10 had no meaning at all

[13:33] herman Bergson: tho the kid can count

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: never offer 1 bill:)

[13:33] herman Bergson: but what I wanted to say...

[13:33] herman Bergson: there is a constant battle going on in our brain

[13:34] herman Bergson: between the limbic system and the prefrontal cortex...

[13:34] Debbie DJ: A corporate observation is that about 80% of work time is spent on trivial stuff - like painting the bike shed, or getting pencils, and 20% is real useful work with customers...

[13:35] Merlin: Hmmm.. the workplace... dont get me started on that!

[13:35] Merlin: Luckly Bejiita is not here too

[13:35] Debbie DJ: So we are not good at picking our priority puzzles ...

[13:35] herman Bergson: Ohhh..makes me think of DELL Debbie

[13:35] Debbie DJ: Dell?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes the computer firm....

[13:35] herman Bergson: The owner wants to take it form the stock market...so He buys all stocks...

[13:36] Debbie DJ: they must be good - their logo is in front of me ;)

[13:36] herman Bergson: But the management is against...

[13:36] Merlin: hehe I have a Dell too

[13:36] herman Bergson: because they got bonuses in stocks and options...

[13:36] Merlin: Some advisors say that guy is making a bad move

[13:37] Debbie DJ: Its certainly an unexpected move...

[13:37] herman Bergson: Sorry..dont know why it comes to my mind :-)

[13:37] Merlin: Dell is old technology and will not prosper

[13:37] Merlin: He said

[13:38] Merlin: I don't know either Herman... psychology?

[13:38] Debbie DJ: It seems that computer manufacturers have largely missed the migration to pads and smart phones

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well it was said that productivity increased when the employees received bonuses...:-)

[13:38] Merlin: That was the issue Debbie, yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: ahh...interesting observation Debbie

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: i am glad they cut the bonuses in swiss now

[13:39] herman Bergson: Real world experience....

[13:39] herman Bergson: I went on vacation to Schiermonnikoog....

[13:39] herman Bergson: took my laptop and iPad with me...

[13:39] herman Bergson: never unpacked the laptop..:-)

[13:39] Debbie DJ: Bonuses are heygine issues according to management practices...

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Short term motivators...

[13:40] Gemma Allen: could you get to sl with the ipad?

[13:40] herman Bergson: No Gemma

[13:40] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:40] Gemma Allen: but everything else i bet

[13:40] herman Bergson: But I was only away for a week...I can hold my breath that long in SL:-)

[13:40] Merlin: Well look at Haku, she is using a mobile phone for this

[13:41] herman Bergson: Does she??

[13:41] Debbie DJ: Oh? Haku?

[13:41] Debbie DJ: are you on a phone?

[13:41] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:41] Gemma Allen: there is a program you can get

[13:41] Gemma Allen: text only?????

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: but you can only chat with it, right?

[13:41] herman Bergson: SL on your mobile????

[13:41] herman Bergson: wow 

[13:41] Merlin: I have known others to use mobile phones too

[13:41] Gemma Allen: text

[13:41] Merlin: No

[13:42] Gemma Allen: no?

[13:42] Merlin: With text only you cannot move about

[13:42] Gemma Allen: the whole thing??

[13:42] Merlin: or see anything

[13:42] Gemma Allen: right

[13:42] Debbie DJ: haku, can you see us?

[13:42] Merlin: She seems to be akf

[13:42] Merlin: akf

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: Hey Haku, ... waves*

[13:42] Merlin: afk

[13:42] Debbie DJ: afk

[13:42] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:42] Merlin: lol

[13:42] herman Bergson smiles

[13:42] Debbie DJ: or aak - asleep at keyboard

[13:43] herman Bergson: anyway....

[13:43] Merlin: hahaha Debbie :)

[13:43] herman Bergson: as you see...our brain and what politics we want are closely related..

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: i have a program for the iphone for sl

[13:43] Gemma Allen: can you see

[13:43] Gemma Allen: ?

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: you can only see the map

[13:44] herman Bergson: Now we need to investigate the question...can there be something universal in mankind due to that brain????

[13:44] herman Bergson: but I see..real students...

[13:44] Debbie DJ: well, there is a lot universal...

[13:45] herman Bergson: more interested in iPhones than a discussion..:-)

[13:45] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:45] herman Bergson: So Class dismissed...lol

[13:45] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Like love ;) and a desire to get our children educated

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: it is getting a part of our brain

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[13:45] Debbie DJ: oops too late - have to wait till next week

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:46] Debbie DJ: thanks Herman... good lecture.

[13:46] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:46] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:46] herman Bergson: thnx Debbie :-)

[13:46] Vadaman: Thank you so much prof.

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: we stay here until you say us what our brains have in common Herman :-)

[13:47] herman Bergson smiles

[13:47] herman Bergson: thought so...

[13:47] Debbie DJ: they all turn into jelly with too much tv :)))

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well we al have the reptile brain to begin with...

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: true Debbie

[13:48] Merlin: Well my thought was that if the brain is universal to mankind, then it will give all mankind those universal qualities

[13:48] herman Bergson: that is evolutionary the oldest part...

[13:48] Debbie DJ: well got to go...

[13:48] Debbie DJ: night all...

[13:49] Vadaman: Bye!

[13:49] Merlin: Bye Debbie

[13:49] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: night debbie and fred

[13:49] .: Beertje :.: bye debbie

[13:49] Debbie DJ: see you all next week... byeee

[13:49] Fred123 Aiten: night everyone

[13:50] herman Bergson: the most interesting part of the brain is the prefrontal cortex....

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: the Kant part

[13:50] herman Bergson: because that is the part that makes us as mammals unique...

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:51] herman Bergson: When that part gets damaged we stop being moral beings....

[13:51] Merlin: Isnt Autism a bit like that?

[13:52] herman Bergson: No...

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: its always tragic when a man gets a brain damage

[13:52] herman Bergson: Autism is a problem with connections in the brain....

[13:52] herman Bergson: I recently read an article about it...

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: you mean the synapses?

[13:53] Merlin: Autistic people are said to lack empathy

[13:53] herman Bergson: a normal brain has longer and wider connections than a brain of an autistic person...

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes they do...

[13:54] herman Bergson: But Phineas Gage is the historical example of what becomes of you when the prefrontal lobe is destroyed

[13:54] herman Bergson: before the accident he was a real decent person....

[13:55] herman Bergson: after the accident he just became an uncontrolled person..to say it in a decent way

[13:55] herman Bergson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

[13:57] herman Bergson: an amazing story this man....

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: just reading it*

[13:58] herman Bergson: a classic example of the first neuro scientific insights

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: I have to go , Thank you again for the wonderful lecture, Good night everybody

[13:58] Merlin: Goodnight Lizzy

[13:58] Merlin: I will go too now

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy

[13:59] Vadaman: Bye!

[13:59] Lizzy Pleides: byee, waves*

[13:59] Merlin: Bye everyone

[14:00] .: Beertje :.: sorry I didn't write anymore..I was struggleing with windows 8...

[14:00] herman Bergson: Can happen :-)