463: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 28

In the previous lecture I showed you that war is not a necessary consequence of human nature. There are at least 70 peoples known, which never have been to war among each other.

Then, when we all have the same brain, where does it go wrong? To give you the paradox: it is caused by the unlimited capabilities of our limited mind.

Let's have a closer look at that. All we know about the world we know by our private brain. It creates the colors and images, the smells and feelings, ideas and thoughts.

We experience it as our Self. How we come to this experience of a Self , is a great mystery of the brain, which is pretty unwilling to show us the secret.

We know that several areas in our head are responsible for the emergence of our Self. Seven billion people on this earth, at least every healthy human being, who can say "I am", can't be mistaken. The Self is a perceived reality.

But precisely, only a perceived reality, created by our brain. Our ego, our self, our self-image and self-esteem exist only as a mysterious product of our brain. 

And what others of us are experiencing is just a shell: our bodies, our eyes, movements and words, but never our ego.

Rather, the others form their own impression of our I.

It is a typical myth of our culture to assume that the Self is some rock solid unchanging something, that makes a person who his is. However, our Self is a volatile substance. Are not our self-image and self-esteem constantly depending on situations and moods?

Our brain is evolutionary primarily designed to live our daily life, and not to asks questions like: Is there life after death? or Where does the universe end?

What we experience as our reality, is limited to what our brain is capable of to show us. We don't see ultra-violet light like insects do, nor do we feel the magnetic field shifts of the earth like sharks and wales do.

Also in our moral judgements we are limited in that way. We look at things situationally. We can not see the whole reality. We see it from our point of view related to our self image.

Contrary to animals we are able to transcend living in Here and Now. We can reconstruct the past and we can plan for the future.

Morally we can do the same. We can care about people thousands of miles away, believe in a world peace, think of general principles of Justice, Fairness, Responsibility.

Advocates of Reason, like Kant, have built whole theories on all we can theoretically think of. but this didn't lead to objective moral judgements.

We are no calculators, nor logic machines or computers. We do not, like some philosophers claimed, make all our actions depend on what the greatest profit would be.

Our actions and moral judgements are still dominated by instincts and intuitions, and we often tend to focus on the unimportant.

Gossip magazines and tabloids have a larger circulations than Newsweek or Time magazine. We know more titles of TV series than names of philosophers.

At this stage in the evolution of the brain, we live in a mixed reality. When we act morally, then we do not act in a world of universal moral principles, but in a world of situations, our private situation.

Though we know that it is possible to live in peace, we are imprisoned in our own situation, which you could call, culture, 

or maybe even better a culture of interests and as the world today shows, our brain is not yet capable of integrating all conflicting thoughts,  impulses, drives and instincts it is made of.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] myxtc: I feel so dumb now

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:21] Debbie DJ: interesting..

[13:21] myxtc: :-)

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: basically our brain is like a computer processor that is to slow for the work it need to do

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: so cant handle all input we get

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or eremarks...the floor is yours :-)

[13:21] herman Bergson: I would like to disagree Bejiita....

[13:22] herman Bergson: it is a big mistake to compair our brain with a com[uter....

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: i know sometimes when i feel i get more then i can handle

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: well a computer is just a machine

[13:22] Debbie DJ: I read your lecture from thursday, and agree with your thesis that we are manipulated (into war) by a ruling class to protect their interests. We are manipulated through some kind of pseudo ethics...

[13:22] herman Bergson: if ti were like a computer we really would be logically and one dimensionally thinking individuals

[13:23] herman Bergson: Was a documentary on the Iraq war...

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: well thats true, a computer only do what we tell it and it cant feel what it does

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: we can

[13:23] Debbie DJ: in the sense that we are threatened by exclusion... and the use of words like "terrorist"

[13:23] herman Bergson: Bush and Blair literally lied us into that war

[13:23] herman Bergson: and Dick Chenney

[13:23] Debbie DJ: The propaganda machine sets values, and the group adopts them

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes i read about that

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that war have caused lot of suffering and more terror for nothing

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: almost nothing at least

[13:24] Debbie DJ: So while we do things to feel good, sometimes the things we have to do are controlled by others.

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: every war does

[13:25] myxtc: I don't know if war is caused by the ruling class to protect their interests. I feel protected by my government when the security of my country is threatened

[13:25] herman Bergson: All ads on TV try to reach that goal Debbie

[13:25] Debbie DJ: So it seems that the strong amongst us, may have different values, or ethical standards?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well....we have human right movements, Amnesty International, Green Peace etc.

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Like, do you think bush was deluded, or greedy?

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: they don't have debbie

[13:26] Mick Nerido: Religion tries to set ethical standards for a society

[13:26] herman Bergson: Bush wanted to finish what his father had begun....kicking out Saddam Hussein

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Mick, religen is dealt with in previous lectures ;)

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: and he motivated the war with weapons of mass destruction wich were never there

[13:27] Debbie DJ: so his"ethics" were about pleasing dad,?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Religion had as a function to unite the group, the tribe....

[13:27] herman Bergson: to make people feel responsible for more than only their own family

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: Bush is a man of revenge who act in pure rage without thinking very much id say

[13:27] Mick Nerido: The 10 commandments are moral values

[13:28] herman Bergson: Sure they are Mick

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: he acts first and think later

[13:28] herman Bergson: But the moral values weren't invented by the 10 commandments...

[13:28] Mick Nerido: We don't always follow them though

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: indeed we don't

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: only a president who made a war is a good president, how many presidents dod hot make wars?

[13:29] herman Bergson: the 10 commandments are the transcription of social rules in a group

[13:29] Debbie DJ: so to me, it seems that Aristotle says human nature is about fitting in and feeling part of it. Yet the leaders often move outside of those goals, and are motivated by power and greed, and not bound by ethics.

[13:29] Mick Nerido: We say God bless our country...

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is fact is our problem Debbie

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is not only the leaders.

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Yep.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Like we have a party that is xenophobe....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a common problem indeed it seems and a BIG problem

[13:30] herman Bergson: or antisemit

[13:30] Debbie DJ: It is often just citizens being greedy or uncaring?

[13:30] herman Bergson: or racist...

[13:30] myxtc: I can't agree with that, debbie

[13:30] herman Bergson: Leaders can use that

[13:31] Debbie DJ: What bit Myx?

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: the big guys are the ones that does this when they get too much power

[13:31] myxtc: power and greed

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and just want more and more without thinking of anyone else

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Well, the proof is in the eating - there are wars, even now.

[13:32] Debbie DJ: and there is unbridled consumerism , even though we know its a bad idea.

[13:32] herman Bergson: In case of the Iraq war it is a real question why Blair and Bush explicitly lied...

[13:32] herman Bergson: They as leaders wanted that war...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: at any cost no matter the consequences

[13:33] herman Bergson: meant more than 4000 american casualties to begin with

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:33] Debbie DJ: And that was minor compared to the 200 000 iraqi deaths

[13:33] myxtc: I believe they 'wanted' it, as you say, to ultimately protect their countries.

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: read an article in the news today at work about it, so horrible everything

[13:34] Debbie DJ: myx - we cant fight for peace.

[13:34] herman Bergson: I disagree with that Myxtc...because all intelligence showed that there was no threat at all

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: no only makes more violence

[13:34] myxtc: we can't sit back and be destroyed, either

[13:34] Merlin: I just found a quote from Desmond Morris I was looking for.....

[13:35] Merlin: We already know that if our populations go on increasing at their present terrifying rate, uncontrollable aggressiveness will become dramatically increased. This has been proved conclusively with laboratory experiments. Gross overcrowding will produce social stresses and tensions that will shatter our community organizations long before it starves us to death.

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: Nr. 43 - George W. Bush: Afghanistan, Irakkrieg II

Nr. 42 - Bill Clinton: Kosovo

Nr. 41 - George Bush "Senior": Irakkrieg I, Invasion in Panama

Nr. 40 - Ronald Reagan: Invasion in Grenada

Nr. 39 - Jimmy Carter: Mr. Friedensnobelpreis, wirklich nur "Kalter Krieger"?

Nr. 38 - Gerald Ford: Vietnamkrieg, Mayaguez-Zwischenfall in Kambodscha

Nr. 37 - Nixon: Vietnamkrieg

Nr. 36 - Lyndon B. Johnson: Vietnamkrieg

Nr. 35 - John F. Kennedy: Erste Truppen in Vietnam

Nr. 34 - Eisenhower: Koreakrieg

Nr. 33 - Harry S. Truman: Pazifikkrieg, Koreakrieg,

[13:35] herman Bergson: There wasn't the slightest proof that it was in th epower of Saddam that he could even cause a scratch

[13:35] Debbie DJ: Little cahnce of that. But how do you think smaller countries feel when terrorised by helicopters and drones?

[13:36] herman Bergson: before we continue discussing politics....

[13:36] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:36] Debbie DJ: sorry.

[13:36] herman Bergson: the subject was how our brain tries to deal with moral judgments

[13:36] myxtc: we should wait for attack from n korea and etc?

[13:36] myxtc: sry

[13:36] Debbie DJ: Oh no - lets go kill them first...

[13:36] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:36] herman Bergson: and that we are a combination of instincts on the one hand and a cool rationality on the other hand

[13:37] herman Bergson: The discussion on war here is realted to the instinct of fear for instance

[13:37] Mick Nerido: We compartmentalize, like eat cows but not horses

[13:38] herman Bergson: all rationality is missing here

[13:38] myxtc: I agree with prof bergson's philosophy on this subject of what the brain can comprehend if not the accusations towards blair and bush

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Drones are the extreme example of immoral and unethical behaviour - especially when they get weddings by mistake.

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: so horrible, make me really sad

[13:38] myxtc: how is a mistake immoral and unethical?

[13:39] herman Bergson: These drones are the overestimation of technology

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: mostly they kill innocent civilians

[13:39] herman Bergson: the believe that we can fight a clean war

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: while the soldiers think its a computer game or feels like one at least

[13:39] myxtc: really, I don't know...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: looking on their screens

[13:39] Debbie DJ: Killing people by remote controle ? can you think of anything more grotesque?

[13:39] Mick Nerido: drones beginning of robot wars

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:39] herman Bergson: They don't think that at all Bejiita....

[13:39] herman Bergson: It is a known fact that they are under great stress....

[13:40] myxtc: killing ppl by remote control is immoral and unethical.

[13:40] herman Bergson: They also know that they can hit innocent civilians

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: but the danger is still there, when you are in safety and just have this remote thing capable of such things

[13:40] myxtc: I ask about the morality and ethics of mistakes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: well i don't know but i don't like these drones at all after what i have seen and heard about them

[13:40] herman Bergson: killing people as such is immoral....

[13:41] herman Bergson: by drone or car bomb or gun

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: rockets could do that too and bombs, you don't see whom you kill

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:41] Debbie DJ: mistakes are not the issue - flying killing machines is immoral.

[13:41] myxtc: medical science has killed ppl by mistake when searching for good

[13:41] herman Bergson: the means is an academic question

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: killing is never good

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: true Bejiita

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: or moral

[13:41] Debbie DJ: true. but the medical mistake was meant for the good of the victim.

[13:42] herman Bergson: the morality is not in the deed but in the intention of the deed

[13:42] myxtc: sorry, debbie, when you said '...especially by mistake' I got confused lol.

[13:42] Debbie DJ: :)

[13:42] Debbie DJ: my bad sentence construction...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Drones, car bombs, guns are intended to kill people...

[13:42] myxtc: drones are meant for the good of the ppl, too, I think

[13:42] myxtc: ultimately

[13:42] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman, good class!

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: well u can use the drone concept for other things then war , have read some examples

[13:43] herman Bergson: not a single arm is eventually for the good of any people....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: that seem promising

[13:43] Debbie DJ: sorry myx - im not a supporter of military agression, or demonstrations of shock and awe, or bullying , or terrorism.

[13:43] herman Bergson: killing can never be for the good of the people

[13:43] myxtc: that is true, prof bergson, I agree

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:44] herman Bergson: There are peoples with hardly any violence. let alone killing or war....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: me too

[13:44] herman Bergson: Human beings are able to live together in that way....

[13:44] Merlin: The man who ran a TV game called Robot Wars is a robotics expert and he condemns the use of robots in actual war.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: so the question is why don't we?

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: culture?

[13:44] myxtc: I am a pacifist but a pacifism didn't make my country secure, i'm sad and sorry to say

[13:45] Merlin: hmm well...

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Neither does aggression.

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita.....war is made by culture....not by our innate human nature

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: must be that

[13:45] herman Bergson: It is a proven fact that it is possible to live without violence...

[13:45] myxtc: no, debbie that is true - my country was also never an aggressor

[13:46] Debbie DJ: which is your country mix?

[13:46] myxtc: it is irrelevant

[13:46] Merlin: Exactly, I wondered that too

[13:46] Debbie DJ: ok. it is.

[13:46] Merlin: There is little point in mentioning your country if we do not know what it is

[13:47] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:47] Debbie DJ: you made it irrelevant -

[13:47] myxtc: many countries are secure without aggression and power and greed which is why any one country that is, is irrelevant

[[13:47] herman Bergson: let's leave out countries....

[13:47] myxtc: thank you, prof, bergson

[13:47] herman Bergson: There is one final observation I want to share with you....

[13:48] herman Bergson: There are about 70 peoples that dont know war...dont go to war....

[13:48] herman Bergson: But all these peoples are tribes....tribal communities, like indians of the amazon...living in such a natural state...

[13:48] Merlin: There was an interesting item on War on bbc Radio4 this morning

[13:49] Merlin: He gave interesting reasons for wars rather like those we have talked about here

[13:49] herman Bergson: btw...the amazon indians are very aggressive and apt to war

[13:49] Merlin: There was an example in PNG

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes I can imagine merlin

[13:49] Merlin: Papua New Guinea in Australasia

[13:49] Debbie DJ: The bushmen of South Africa don't wage war.

[13:50] herman Bergson: It is the complexity of our present "civilization" that doesn't make things easier regarding matters of war and peace

[13:50] Merlin: Well in PNG they were continually at war in minor ways at one time

[13:50] Merlin: When the rulers showed them their guns and power over them they stopped

[13:50] myxtc: I didn't follow what you said about the ppls who don't war, prof. who are they?

[13:51] Merlin: Well... thats what this program  said

[13:51] herman Bergson: there is a site ....

[13:51] herman Bergson: www.peacefulsocieties.org, when I am not mistaken

[13:51] myxtc: thank you! :-)!

[13:52] herman Bergson: if it isn't correct Myxtc then I'll look it up

[13:52] herman Bergson: The list is not complete even

[13:52] myxtc: it seems to b correct - I just brought it up :-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: good

[13:53] myxtc: Buh-bye. :)

[13:53] myxtc: Fare well 'til we meet again...

[13:53] myxtc: oxo...

[13:53] myxtc: Buh-bye! ^__^

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu :9

[13:53] herman Bergson: then, thanx you all for your participation

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hmm this was an interesting subject

[13:53] myxtc: lol.

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: thank you, that was interesting again

462: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 27

Is the willingness to wage war an intrinsic feature of human nature, in other words, where there are men there is war?

The answer is simple.  The answer is NO. All swans are white. Is that statement true? No, for I have found a black swan.

One day or another in history every people on this earth goes to war. Is this statement true? The answer is NO. There are about  a 70 peoples on this earth that use no violence, nor ever fought a war. http://www.peacefulsocieties.org

Yet there is the theory that it is in our genes to be aggressive. Such theorists always point at nature where male animals fight for and defend their females.

Then there is the territory theory. When early men were nomads they easily could avoid each other, but as we became farmers we developed land as our property that had to be defended.

And there always is enough aggression. With the "survival of the fittest" in hand some claim that aggression therefore prevailed in evolution.

Comparisons with the animal kingdom are popular but lack real proof. And the selfish gen at war to proliferate itself as much as possible, leads to peculiar questions.

Are the deepest drives for modern wars like Iraq, Afganistan, Libya at the end motivated by the drive of human nature to proliferate its genes?

Sure, almost all people are capable of aggression against others and many are also willing to use violence. But this is still far from a predisposition to war. 

War, and that is the whole point, is not particularly just the expansion of aggression with greater resources. An aggressive person is not  inevitably or by definition also a violent person.

Some turn their aggression for instance against themselves and become depressive. Others show it with mean looks, mean or angry remarks. 

And most of the time is our aggression against people in our immediate environment and not against nations. In that sense it shows that aggression is hardly enough drive to go to war against a people, that you not even know personally.

in other words, war is not just the escalation of a biologically dark side of human nature. No aggressive drive and no genetic fitness strategy is forcing us to attack our neighboring countries.

But if this all is true, then why are their yet wars in this world. First we may conclude that not a single war can be justified by saying: "Ah well, that is human nature. We can't help it."

The Swizz professor of ethology,  Jürg Helbling, of the university of Luzern gives us this explanation:

"The biological hardware and the biologically determined predisposition of man to violent behavior allows violent but also peaceful behavior, and it depends on the social and cultural software, how people actually behave."

War is not the unavoidable consequence of our human nature. Maybe you should listen more carefully to the propaganda…sorry, of course, we call it political opinions.

Then you learn the truth, for the mother of all wars is not the pursuit of evil and not the ruthless pursuing of  interests. It is the fear for our life and the perceived threat to our self-esteem.

And then, 20 September 2001, I hear US President George W. Bush. During a televised address to a joint session of congress, 

he stated that, "our 'war on terror' begins with al-Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated."

What is he installing in our brains? FEAR…and it works….

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: Bush is insane Id say, an agressive war starter, the first thing he did when he came to power whas to start mass execution of prisoners

[13:24] herman Bergson: \/

[13:24] herman Bergson: peace

[13:24] Gemma Allen: it will never be over

[13:24] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....it will

[13:24] Gemma Allen: i doubt it

[13:24] Gemma Allen: according to bush

[13:25] herman Bergson: it all depends on the willingness of all people on earth to coopereate....

[13:25] Gemma Allen: all terrorist organizations

[13:25] Gemma Allen: must go

[13:25] herman Bergson: manage their aggression...

[13:25] .: Beertje :.: i think there will be more war..not about oil..but about water

[13:25] Gemma Allen: and a terrorist is often in the eyes of the beholder

[13:25] herman Bergson: there may be wars in the near future...

[13:26] Gemma Allen: a terrorist can become prim minister

[13:26] Merlin: Yes Beertje, water will become a big issue soon for some people

[13:26] herman Bergson: but our question is...

[13:26] Gemma Allen: president

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: the danger of fighting back is that it might lead and did lead to more terror, like the Subway bombs in london

[13:26] herman Bergson: is mankind a bunch of egoists or is it a colony of cooperative beings...

[13:26] Gemma Allen: both i think

[13:26] herman Bergson: what will prevail in the long run??? THAT is the question

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but the tricky part is we still need to stop those terrorists cause they are totally insane

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: vary dangerous people

[13:27] Gemma Allen: again who is really a terrorist

[13:27] herman Bergson: Bejiita...

[13:27] Merlin: Well, you know my views about the long term prospects for mankind

[13:27] herman Bergson: We are not talking about such details...:-)

[13:27] herman Bergson: we know how our world looks like

[13:28] herman Bergson: we are talking about human nature and its future

[13:28] Gemma Allen: with hope

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: well i just hope that it is as u say that we are all sort of good on the insode

[13:28] Gemma Allen: i stil think the best thing for mankind would be invasion by aliens

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: I am 100 %

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just to give you some idea...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok

[13:28] Gemma Allen: we would be together fast!!

[13:29] herman Bergson: the number of people killed in wars has decreased during the centuries

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: right direction at least

[13:29] .: Beertje :.: 1 life is still too much

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: u cant value a life indeed

[13:30] herman Bergson: when everybody would think so Beertje we are on the right track

[13:30] herman Bergson: and many more people think so nowadays

[13:31] herman Bergson: Due to the internet the proliferation of knowledge and information is so big....

[13:31] herman Bergson: We all know that education is the key

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: how to make a bomb...yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: a coin has always two sides indeed Beertje

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: powerful medium, thats why china censor it so hard and north korea totally blocks it so the people cant learn that he is really a bad guy and what is really happening in the worrld

[13:32] herman Bergson: but you need only one fool to make a bomb while the majority of peole love to learn better things

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: information is the power of freedom

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: one fool started ww2..

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: true Bejita

[13:33] herman Bergson: no Beertje..that is historically incorrect...

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: we had many fools in history

[13:33] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:33] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: also with devices like my galaxy S3 i have acess to valuable information wherever I go, so i can keep myself always updated

[13:33] MerlinMerlin laughs

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: smiles

[13:34] Merlin: Are you being sponsored Bejiita?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Is that why your hair is always upright Bejiita...?

[13:34] herman Bergson: totally updated? :-)

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahaha no, just think it is the best one cause I'm so happy with it

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: i think there always be fools..not only in the past but always

[13:35] herman Bergson: You all didn't looked impressed by my explanation why there is war?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Was it that obvious to you all? ^_^

[13:36] Gemma Allen: i think so

[13:36] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson grins

[13:36] Merlin: I came across some extracts from The Naked Ape book today

[13:36] herman Bergson: I know I have a smart class :-)

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: i have to read it over I guess

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes u have ㋡

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: hmm..i'm not one of them..

[13:37] Merlin: Desmond Morris says some things about human conflicts

[13:37] herman Bergson: Desmond Morris, Merlin?

[13:37] Merlin: Yes :)

[13:37] herman Bergson: then keep in mind....

[13:37] herman Bergson: on the one hand there is aggression in the individual..

[13:38] herman Bergson: and on the other hand there is collective aggression: war

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:38] herman Bergson: and then, how an author tries to link these two

[13:39] herman Bergson: My conclusion is that we are manipulated into a war by a ruling class that wants to protect its interests..or even EGO

[13:39] Gemma Allen: there you go

[13:39] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa very much possible

[13:39] Merlin: Well I think that was true of WW1

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: brainwashed

[13:39] herman Bergson: And that class does that by playing on our sentiment of fear...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: or similar

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and u can clearly see that with groups like al qaida

[13:40] herman Bergson: Sadam Hussein should have had weapons of mass destruction....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: Jihad

[13:40] herman Bergson: he had oil.....that was the point

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes thats also a theory

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: Usa wanted the oil

[13:41] Gemma Allen: i am nto sure of that oil thing we have never benefited from the oil

[13:41] herman Bergson: He had taken Kuweit (oil)...that was the point

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: of course herman, i agree

[13:41] Gemma Allen: in over 10 years now

[13:41] Gemma Allen: and we wont

[13:41] Merlin: I never thought Oil was a credible explanation for the Iraq war

[13:41] herman Bergson: No Gemma.....but Europe needed that oil

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: well every american are addicted to their cars and the entire society is circulation around it

[13:41] Gemma Allen: but we didn't care about that

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: u need a car to go from place to place cause great distances

[13:41] Merlin: Yes they are Bejiita

[13:41] Gemma Allen: i don't believer that part

[13:41] herman Bergson: th eUS gets its oil from Veneuela and Saoudi Arabia

[13:42] Merlin: Yes Bej, it is not even safe to walk out in the street there

[13:42] Gemma Allen: we are now supplying more of our own oil that never before

[13:42] Gemma Allen: here in the us

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: nope even here in sweden people drive like maniacs

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes indeed Gemma

[13:42] Gemma Allen: and now have mucho natural gass

[13:42] Gemma Allen: enough to export

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: id say we have gone from industrial through IT and now we live in the stress and consumption society

[13:43] herman Bergson: that broke down Bejiita....

[13:44] herman Bergson: ever growing consumption is no issue anymore

[13:44] Gemma Allen: well i wonder about that

[13:44] herman Bergson: they talk about consumer's thrust here.....

[13:44] Gemma Allen: agriculture for the world is becoming an issue

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: maybe a bit halted now however still everyone need the latest even of what they have works and when some new thing comes out they jump in the car and drive like maniacs to get it

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: we are all living in a system that forces us to consume

[13:45] Merlin: Galaxy S3?

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: lol Merlin

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy....but in the Netherlands the consumer's trust is down....

[13:45] Merlin: (whatever that is)

[13:45] herman Bergson: it means...people dont buy new things anymore...

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: haha yes but ai boy things i expect them to last a while, i will not rush for the S4 now for ex

[13:45] herman Bergson: keep their money in their purse

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: our taxsystem is based on consumption and economic growth

[13:46] Merlin: hehehe

[13:46] Gemma Allen: i think that wiol change

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and my TV i ve had since i moved in and still works so shy throw it away

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: why

[13:46] Merlin: I know one reason.....

[13:46] Gemma Allen: well because there are such better ones now

[13:46] Merlin: Stop watching telly!

[13:46] Gemma Allen: adn they use less power too

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: my monitor broke...and I repaired it myself..for 5 euro..:)

[13:47] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: one can learn how to repair things

[13:47] Gemma Allen: good for you

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: wow great beertje!

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: thats nice

[13:47] herman Bergson: wow ...cool Beertje :-)

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: i bring you an old from me

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: grins

[13:47] herman Bergson: I guess that is why you look so good today...and that for only 5 euro :-))

[13:48] Gemma Allen: collects fixebles to mail to beertje

[13:48] herman Bergson: I'll mail you an old monitor myself Beertje :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: smiles...condensators?..broke..they are build for 3 years..then the will brake down

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: i just put some new in.

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: that is true Beertje

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well

[13:49] herman Bergson: we are so far off subject now....

[13:49] Gemma Allen: i would break anything trying to fix it

[13:49] Merlin: Oh you mean electrical capacitors Beertje?

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: have never had condenser probs though but i have seen cases

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: some LEDs are made for 1000 hours only

[13:49] herman Bergson: Next lecture will be on inexpensive monitor repair

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:49] herman Bergson: presented by Beertje :-)

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: Hahahaha..... ㋡   

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: my amplifer i've had very long even before i moved in and still run like a charm

[13:49] .: Beertje :.: lol

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: some really bog ones in there

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: big

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: however they can dry out

[13:49] herman Bergson: You can do it Beertje :-))

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: no:)

[13:50] herman Bergson: Anyway...thank you all again for your participation

[13:50] Merlin: You could do it on the Wednesda

[13:50] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:50] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe this was great

461: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 26

Edvard Westermarck (1862 -1939), a finnish philosopher and sociologist,  argues in his book  "The Origin and Development of Moral ideas" (1908) : 

Moral behavior is a biological phenomenon, a total of contradicting instincts, which can lead to totally different standards from society to society.

There is not such a thing as an absolute anchor point. There is no moral "Law" inside of us, no mandatory Maxim nor transcendental Golden Rule, which makes us to human beings.

Ethics don't need universal principles.. Anthropological research has never come up with a clear answer about the existence of universal ethical rules.

That every culture has indeed an idea of Good and Evil, doesn't tell us anything about what is regarded as good and evil. 

In one culture, it is good to show your true identity by not covering your face. In an other culture it is regarded as bad, when a woman exposes her face in public.

The situation may be like this: some jokes might make people laugh in all cultures, others aren't understood at all in other cultures.

In all cultures people say "I love you", but we all know that when people of different cultures, start a relation, we may face serious problems regarding this "I love you". 

Like "when you love me, we walk everywhere hand in hand" and "when you love me, you walk one meter behind me everywhere we go".

Why would this be different when we are dealing with moral concepts? In 1971 John Rawls published  his "A Theory of Justice", in which he in a Kantian way claimed that "most reasonable principles of justice are those everyone would accept and agree to from a fair position."

In fact I have the same critique here as with Kant. The more logical the argumentation becomes, the further away it moves from our psychological reality.

In 1982  Michael Sandel published a critique of John Rawls' A Theory of Justice in his first book, "Liberalism and the Limits of Justice".  

His basic point is, that a person is, who he is, because he lives in an environment, a context, in which he makes himself who he is by the permanent interaction with others.

As such, as a homo sapiens, as a member of humanity or as a rational being, he isn't obliged to anything. 

He can act as he likes. However, as a member of a group, community, society, he learns the difference between good and evil, and this shapes his self image and sense of self-esteem.

Thus, all our moral ideas don't emerge from under the "veil of ignorance" as Rawls  claims, but they emerge in a community.

Our standards and values don't come out of a vacuum, but are shaped by the context we live in. We can accept them, or fight them, but we stay "imprisoned" in our context.

If formulated this way, relativists score a few points. Different cultures, different rules of play. But Sandel and others yet formulate some general idea:

From the Aristotelian point of view, every human being in every culture, whatever culture it is, strives for a fulfilled and rewarding life.

And a fulfilled and rewarding life for all men is bound to the same condition: a positive self image and self-esteem.

The context may be different. A farmer in the Middle Ages would regard the absence of hunger and disease as a fulfilled life, and the hope, that God looks upon him with a smile, may be his positive self image.

A fulfilled life depends on how our needs are met, not only the physical but also the mental, like our need for love, beauty, truth, sense.

And many of these needs are related to others. They get met by us by being  a better lover, partner,friend, by willing to help others and so on.

Whether our needs are mainly egoistic or mainly altruistic, does not simply depend on human nature, but also on our context, the culture we live in.

In countries like the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden we live in the most egoistic and solicitous culture. The ads, commerce expects the egoism of the individual.

And we expect the altruistic, solicitous attitude from the state.

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman!

[13:24] Debbie DJ: Great lecture Herman

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes nice

[[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours

[13:24] Oceane: great lecture Herman :)

[13:24] Debbie DJ: By doing such a good job, you must get a lot of self esteem ?

[13:25] herman Bergson  smiles

[[13:25] herman Bergson: In fact you are right debbie....

[13:25] herman Bergson: To tell you the truth...

[13:25] herman Bergson: I graduated in philosophy in 1978

[13:25] Jarapanda Snook: So, we are conditioned by our environment...

[13:25] herman Bergson: then I lectures on it for 10 years....

[13:26] Oceane: so what was your thesis about then?

[13:26] Oceane: your graduation work?

[13:26] herman Bergson: in 1986 I switched to teaching computer classes....leaving my love behind so to speak

[[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:26] herman Bergson: My thesis was about the Mind - Body problem...

[13:26] Oceane: as in Heidegger?

[13:27] Oceane: Sein and Zeit, Time and Being?

[13:27] Jarapanda Snook: ... and our ethical stance is driven by the environment we grow up in

[13:27] herman Bergson: in 2007 I thought...reading books is dull...always been a teacher... so I started the Philosophy Class in SL

[13:27] herman Bergson: true Jara

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: sorry I'm late

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hi Beertja

[13:27] Debbie DJ: If this is all so simple, how do we get so confused in the world? As groups we often make decisions which badly effect others, or are contrary to our long term interests?

[13:27] Oceane: hello Beertje?

[13:27] Debbie DJ: Hi Beertje?

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: hi:)

[13:27] Oceane: :)

[13:27] Oceane: nice to see you :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: Hypothetically.....

[13:28] herman Bergson: what I said was that ethics function within a cultural context....

[13:28] herman Bergson: of course based on our biological make up...

[13:28] Jarapanda Snook: so it's nature and nurture

[13:28] Oceane: how do you mean it.. like the way you explained in this class tonight?

[13:29] Debbie DJ: yes... a local culture has a stronger influence I guess...

[13:29] herman Bergson: theoretically you could infer then that this whole planet had only one culture....

[13:29] herman Bergson: all ethical standards would be universal

[13:29] Oceane: well that would be pretty boring wouldn't it... ;)

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:29] Jarapanda Snook: should ethics transend cultural barriers?

[13:30] herman Bergson: It does'nt Jara....

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Some should definitely Jarapanda...

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Like murder is a nono.

[13:30] herman Bergson: even Human rights are a product of Western culture...

[13:30] Oceane: what does transcend means? I don´t know the word in this context?

[13:30] herman Bergson: not adopted by other cultures

[13:30] Oceane: thank you herman

[13:31] Jarapanda Snook: well, where does murder and judicial killing or by the military differentiate?

[13:31] herman Bergson: it means that it would be above and independent of a specific culture Oceane

[13:31] Debbie DJ: transcend means "rise above"

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] OceaneOceane nods

[13:31] herman Bergson: Take murder.....

[13:31] herman Bergson: in our opinion murder is not allowed....

[13:32] Oceane: unless in warfare lol

[13:32] herman Bergson: but in other cultures you may kill your neighbor when he looked at your wife

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: can murder ever be right? id say no

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: thats a sick culture then

[13:32] herman Bergson: then it is not murder but revenge

[13:32] Oceane: agrees to Bejita.. there is only one exception Bejita

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: same with these religious fanatics blowing everyone u

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: up

[13:32] Jarapanda Snook: who says so? If you go back 1000 years then slaughter was commonplace - in the days of the Vikings for example - in those times it was regarded as a rite of passage

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: really sad

[13:33] Oceane: if somebody is threatening your life you can try to kill him or at least hit him subconsciously

[13:33] Debbie DJ: The only thing we ever have is life, and taking another life is just stupid, and self defeating.

[13:33] herman Bergson: that is what I mean....

[13:33] Oceane: agrees to Debbie

[13:33] herman Bergson: killing an other person is not always labeled morally as murder

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:33] Jarapanda Snook: so it is in the context of the culture that defines ethics...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: so tricky this

[13:34] Oceane: but in fact it is herman you take a life.. its murder.. at least to my standards of morality

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes it is how a specific culture values a human life

[13:34] Jarapanda Snook: and different times and cultures will define what is ethically right or wrong...

[13:34] Oceane: no thats how members of peace movements view life for instance herman+

[13:34] Jarapanda Snook: so how can ethics be universal?

[13:35] Debbie DJ: OK, so that is why groups of people attack other groups of people - cultural dissimilarities?

[13:35] herman Bergson: That is what I said in this lecture Jara...the answer is "no"

[13:35] herman Bergson: Due to differences in culture

[13:35] Debbie DJ: I agree there are probably no universal ethics... but some are near universal....

[13:35] Oceane: #I don´t know Debbie.. I think most of it its their big Ego which has grown to big instead of being modest

[13:35] Jarapanda Snook: its deeper than that Debbie - it goes back to primordial times , when we had to fight to survive

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...often a reason

[13:36] Oceane: yes Jarapanda in former times you had only four ways...

[13:36] Jarapanda Snook: so it is instinctive in us to protect our own, and this often means against those who are different

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is only a partial explanation Jara...

[13:37] Debbie DJ: I think we are past the old times.... our sheer numbers mark us as successful. But we are not able to fight against the gods of money and oil ;)

[13:37] Jarapanda Snook: please elaborate Herman...

[13:37] herman Bergson: due to cultural development we are not that primordial anymore

[13:37] herman Bergson: As is said in a previous lecture....

[13:37] Oceane: Debbie are we really past the old times? In former times people fought for water nd land, has that really changed soo much?

[13:37] herman Bergson: it is the battle between the limbic system and the prefrontal cortex in the brain here

[13:38] Oceane:

[13:38] Jarapanda Snook: however sophisticated we become we are not much changed from the cave men

[13:38] herman Bergson: I tend to disagree here Jara:-)

[13:38] Oceane: civilization is a very thin cover Jara ;)

[13:38] Jarapanda Snook: and we have their instincts

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Oveana. Nope. just the scale, and our inability to curb our self destruction through excess.

[13:38] herman Bergson: To give you an example

[13:39] herman Bergson: the caveman just killed his disabled child

[13:39] herman Bergson: we don't do that anymore

[13:39] Oceane:

[13:39] herman Bergson: so we made at least some progress

[13:39] Jarapanda Snook: absolutely - and we would expect that in a modern society...

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: we kill our disabled child before it's born these days....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Let me give you an other example....

[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: but inside us we still have that bit of xenophobia

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: yes Beertje

[13:40] herman Bergson: for us is the integrity of our body a moral value...

[13:40] herman Bergson: nobody has the right to do you physical harm

[13:41] Oceane: well lol

[13:41] Debbie DJ: except the military :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: yet....when you happen to live under the Sharia...everyone there agrees that your hand should be cult of when you have stolen

[13:41] Oceane: definetely right Debbie- except the military :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Military and war is an extra chapter Debbie

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: but sharia is no moral what i can see its just barbarism all through

[13:41] Oceane: I would love to hear a lesson about it Herman :)

[13:42] Debbie DJ: and if you live anywhere with oil, expect to be bombed into submission by the first world...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok ...next one will be about the question why we YET make war

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: brain washed fundamentalists doing as much harm to others as they can for power

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: thats sharia to me

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: giving war and misery as result

[13:42] Oceane: smiles, thank you Herman :)

[13:42] Jarapanda Snook: The military is deputized by society to do it's dirty work...

[13:42] herman Bergson: No Bejiita....

[13:43] herman Bergson: in your statement you are judgmental about another culture from tyou own perspective

[13:43] Oceane: I can´t attend unfortunately to your next lesson because I am hosting a poetry event but can I have your chat log off it?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: i would not wanna live in a place where there was sharia laws

[13:43] Debbie DJ: I never deputized the military.... and will not. Especially not the agressors.

[13:43] herman Bergson: no no,,,me neither...nor do I approve it...

[13:43] Jarapanda Snook: but it would be hopeless if we had no military... because someone else surely would be able to exert their power over us

[13:44] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Jara...but in a world like ours is today it is more complicated....

[13:44] Debbie DJ: fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[13:44] Jarapanda Snook: lol Debbie

[13:44] OceaneOceane experienced military when you are on a demonstration for peace and they come with throwing water thrower in tanks on you.. and you have to rescue little children

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hahaha sort of

[13:45] herman Bergson: Economic force and power or cyber power are even stronger than blunt military force is some occasions

[13:45] Debbie DJ: fighting for peace is an oxymoron, technically.

[13:45] Jarapanda Snook: and will be the battlefield in any future conflicts Herman

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:45] Oceane: what is an oxymoron?

[13:45] herman Bergson: a rare word :-)

[13:45] Oceane: grins but the meaning?

[13:45] Debbie DJ: two words that conflict in the same sentence...

[13:45] herman Bergson: kind of contradictio in terminis

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: a paradox

[13:46] Debbie DJ: like a paradox

[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: an oxymoron is an expression which defies itself

[13:46] herman Bergson: nicer...paradox

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: exactly

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Military Intelligence - for example ;)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Oh..just one remark of our progress with respect to the caveman ...

[13:46] Oceane: well you have to fight for your right of telling other your opinion .... thats the way I experienced it when we were marching against nuclear power plants

[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: lol Debbie - although Intel has a different meaning there

[13:47] herman Bergson: in stead of invading a country we take economical measures against it...like against Iran for instance

[13:47] herman Bergson: nice one Debbie :-)

[13:47] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:47] Oceane: well nobody knows what the Iran is doing, are they working on nuclear missiles.. will this be a threat to the western world...?

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Debbie DJ: If they are, can you blame them?

[13:48] Oceane: can you please explain it Debbie?

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: a bit worried about north korea though, that guy seems so insane he if anyone could start a nuclear war for sure and destroy the entire world

[13:48] herman Bergson: Depends on the motives Debbie....

[13:49] herman Bergson: If they are anti semitic I have a problem with it and can blame them

[13:49] Debbie DJ: If Iran is making nuclear weapons, can you blame them? after america invaded iraq, and afgahnistan?

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and he have nuclear bombs already

[13:49] herman Bergson: because I value equality

[13:49] Oceane: nods to Bejiita, I've seen an interview about him, but can you trust our medias?

[13:49] Debbie DJ: Yes. There are still thousands of nukes armed and ready. MAD has not gone away...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: also look at how he threats his people, cutting them of from the world and let them starve to death while he blows nuclear weapons

[13:49] herman Bergson: I would say 'No' Oceane :-)

[13:50] Oceane: smiles to herman

[13:50] Oceane: :)

[13:50] herman Bergson: Well...I think we have saved the world again today :-)

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: scary story

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: how so

[13:51] Debbie DJ: You have indeed Prof Herman...

[13:51] Oceane: smiles ..

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hope

[13:51] Oceane: great tuition Herman, tzthank you so much I learned alot in here

[13:51] herman Bergson: When I post our discussion in the blog it might enlighten some people on this earth...whoo knows :-)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Debbie DJ: Another day and we move closer to fixing the world , and revolution...

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: we better do!

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: Ok..Last remark for Jara...

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: we´ll do our best

[13:52] Jarapanda Snook: When I grew up we has a constant threat of nuclear war - I think it has reduced significantly now. North Korea may way start something up against SK, but the major powers are more likely to squash it than proliferate it nowadays

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed Jara.....

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hmm hope so indeed

[13:53] herman Bergson: As I child I was instructed to go and sit under the stairs when the bomb would fall :-)

[13:53] Debbie DJ: Jara - there are thousands of nukes still deployed!

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nuclear weapons is a nightmare

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: shudders

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: horrible stuff

[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess we'd better end our discussion here ^_^

[13:54] Oceane: smiles

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: I think that Herman and I are of a different generation, and that it really is much less of a threat now - I remember the Cuban Missile crisis!

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa the cuba crisis yes

[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: Thanks, Herman

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: then was really close

[13:54] herman Bergson: I watched in on TV jara..I am 63 in RL

[13:54] Oceane: thanks _Herman :)

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: was something like wargames

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: dont remember the exact story

[13:55] Debbie DJ: http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/nukestatus.html

[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: only they were about to press the button... it was a while before the populus knew that

[13:55] herman Bergson: yes was scary..... Kennedy and chroetsjev..

[13:55] Oceane: Would anybody mind if I do a chat log for my learning purposes and give this to my Mentor as part of my studies?

[13:55] Debbie DJ: This link, like many others, shows how real nuclear war still is. we just ignore it these days.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: yes thank god they didn't

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: then we would not be here today and the planed all dead maybe

[13:56] Jarapanda Snook: go ahead Oceane

[13:56] Oceane: thank you Jara :)

[13:56] Jarapanda Snook: Herman puts all this on his weblog anyway

[13:56] herman Bergson: That is ok Oceana...

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: neetd to check it up

[13:56] Debbie DJ: there are more than 17000 nukes deployed according to this page.

[13:56] herman Bergson: the discussion is also posted on our weblog of the philosophy class

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaaa wow i see its a terribly lot

[13:56] Oceane: ah okay so we can chat log any discussion here?

[13:57] herman Bergson: Not here in Wainscot Bejiita.....

[13:57] herman Bergson: so...

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:57] herman Bergson: and Class dismissed ^_^

[13:57] Jarapanda Snook: Thanks Herman

[13:57] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hehehe no hopefully far from here

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:57] Oceane: smiles and waves goodbye :)

[13:57] Debbie DJ: thanks herman - stimulating as usual ;)