265: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 30

When I was a 22 year old philosophy student at the university I kept notebooks to write down all my brilliant philosophical ideas.

When I specialized in Analytical Philosophy in the second half of my study, I had to discover that all my "brilliant" thought had already been thought!

And that 20 to 50 years before I even was born. Was this my big disappointment? No. It was my discovery that I fit into a philosophical tradition. One which now happens to dominate scientific thought.

Now 40 years later it happens again. It is not that I now think, that I have brilliant thoughts, but in the course of this project on human nature I discover, that I am not alone in the scientific and philosophical society with my ideas. On the contrary.

-quote-

"For those who believe that morality comes straight from God the creator, acceptance of evolution would open a moral abyss. 

Listen to the Reverend AI Sharpton debating the late atheist firebrand Christopher Hitchens: "If there is no order to the universe, 

and therefore some being, some force that ordered it, then who determines what is right or wrong? 

There is nothing immoral if there's nothing in charge., Similarly, I have heard people echo Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov, exclaiming, "If there is no God, I am free to rape my neighbor!,

Perhaps it's just me, but I am wary of any persons whose belief system is the only thing standing between them and repulsive behavior. 

Why not assume that our humanity, including the self-control needed for a livable society, is built into us? 

Does anyone truly believe that our ancestors lacked social norms before they had religion? Did they never assist others in need, or complain about an unfair deal? 

Humans must have worried about the functioning of their communities well before current religions arose, which occurred only a couple of millennia ago. Biologists are unimpressed by that kind of timescale."

-end quote-

Apes are not machines, they have the same emotions as humans like us have and act according to ethical principles. 

That is the central message of the book, "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates" by Frans de Waal (Mar 25, 2013) and my quote was from page 2 of this book.

Who is looking for the origin of morality ends up with an animal, with the monkey. With that view, based on his personal, unique experience with chimpanzees and bonobos, De Waal goes into battle against multiple opponents. 

Firstly against ethicists who think that ethics is a matter of rational thought, and thus uniquely human, which is a misconception, as I have  pointed out already several times.

Second, against the followers of Richard Dawkins, who shout that our behavior is determined solely by our genes, 

and that animals and human beings essentially are cynical egoists, who only help each other if they (genetically) benefit from it.

Nonsense, says De Waal, a dutch primatologist, who lives and works in the United States. But he fights in particular  against believers who think that all morality comes from above, 

and that a godless society is doomed to perish by crime and lust. With respect  to his opponent the believer, De Waal keeps his gunpowder dry for a long time.

He emphasizes the value of belief, and attacks hard on fierce neo-atheists like Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, 

in the final chapter the believers are firmly taught a lesson, however. Who sees religion as the origin of morality "is completely wrong." 

And: "The big challenge is a step forward, beyond religion, and especially beyond the morality from above. The origin of morality is apparent in the behavior of other animals, "says De Waal.

Thence I come to the conclusion, that some 40 years later I may discover again to be a part of a philosophical and scientific interpretation of our  our world and that a positive interpretation of human natur is justified.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks....the floor is yours :-))

[13:21] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:22] herman Bergson: Could be I told you the obvious :-)

[13:22] Merlin: I really think you have got Richard Dawkins wrong Herman

[13:22] herman Bergson: That may be the case merlin...sure

[13:23] Merlin: He does not say we are entirely determined by our genes

[13:23] Dain Shan: Well its kinda obvious, I don't think in an Atheist family is no Morality at all.

[13:23] Merlin: He has a very balanced and deep understanding

[13:24] herman Bergson: Indeed Dain.....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: well i don't know if i believe in a god but i know ow u should behave anyway

[13:24] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...maybe Dawkins deserved a more detailed presentation here then

[13:24] MerlinMerlin smiles

[13:24] herman Bergson: to clarify what he meant with his selfish gene

[13:24] Oceane: sometimes it helps to believe in a god - if nobody´s around to give you any solace..

[13:25] herman Bergson: True ...there is a general opinion about him, as you hear from de Waal here too....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Oceane.....

[13:25] Oceane smiles and listens

[13:25] herman Bergson: It is nonsense to fight beliefs....

[13:26] herman Bergson: We are a vessel full of beliefs.....

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: I have to go..sorry...have a goodnight

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: cu Beertje

[13:26] herman Bergson: We believe that the sun will rise again tomorrow and that we'll wake

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: bye

[13:27] herman Bergson: We believe that coincidences are not coincidences...

[13:27] herman Bergson: we have lots of beliefs...

[13:27] herman Bergson: the only problem is what you claim with your belief..

[13:28] herman Bergson: if you claim the monopoly on morality, you are on the wrong track

[13:28] herman Bergson: As Dain said....it is ridiculous to assume that a family of atheists has no morality :-)

[13:29] Oceane: wonder what will happen if morality is a concept that can be negotiated... somehow or are all values immovable?

[13:29] herman Bergson: the moral values are always related to a social context

[13:30] Dain Shan: Also .. the example about Animals impress me here. In a pack .. wolves for example, they have their own Moral. But they have no god for sure.. Gods are a Human thing .. we invented that

[13:30] herman Bergson: so there cant be an absolute Good

[13:30] herman Bergson: I agree Dain....

[13:30] Karsten Runningbear: who knows that, maybe animals got a god?

[13:31] Merlin: Yes the question of 'Absolute Good' has been questionable to me for some years

[13:31] herman Bergson: That is a questionable idea Karsten.....

[13:31] Dain Shan: That would mean that they have a higher understanding of the world. Something they dont have

[13:31] herman Bergson: For the idea of a god needs a lot of abstract thinking to get to it...

[13:31] Oceane: do you mean absolute as in monotheistic, Merlin?

[13:31] Karsten Runningbear: could be a kind of master plan, only humans call it god

[13:31] Merlin: No I was not referring to god

[13:31] herman Bergson: no animal has so far shown that quality except the human being

[13:32] Oceane: ah okay

[13:32] herman Bergson: the idea of a master plan is also just a mental construct....

[13:32] Dain Shan: Hmm a master plan. don't we run off into an argument about religion now ^^

[13:33] Merlin: hehe

[13:33] Karsten Runningbear: ^^

[13:33] herman Bergson: No on religion I am quite clear....

[13:33] Merlin: Well.. 1 we go off topic a lot

[13:33] Merlin: and 2 Religion is involved in this IMO

[13:33] herman Bergson: morality existed before religion among social beings.....as de Waal also said

[13:33] herman Bergson: We invented religion....

[13:34] herman Bergson: it has a social function....

[13:34] Merlin: Man the Creator!

[13:34] herman Bergson: for instance....

[13:34] Merlin: We made god, not the other way round

[13:34] Merlin: We made god in OUR image

[13:34] herman Bergson: you feel bound to your primary family....

[13:34] herman Bergson: not to people you don't know....

[13:34] Merlin: An old man in the sky with a beard. YES

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahahah yes thats a classic image of god

[13:34] herman Bergson: so religion my be the binding force in a wider social circle...

[13:35] Merlin: It says in the bible that god resembles us

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: sitting on a cloud

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] Merlin: lol yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: ye s..the old man image....

[13:35] Merlin: BUT they say WE are in the image of GOD

[13:35] Merlin: in fact, it is the other way round

[13:35] herman Bergson: Why not an old woman...

[13:36] Karsten Runningbear: old men should be wise men

[13:36] herman Bergson: It has to be the other way around Merlin :-)

[13:36] Merlin: Well a perfect god should not have gender but HE is male in the Bible

[13:36] Merlin: Yes Herman

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes...a questionable issue...but irrelevant here

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:37] Merlin: well there could be translation issues but the bible in English clearly uses He as the pronoun for God

[13:37] herman Bergson: what we discuss here in this project is the question "what is human nature" and thence "Where does morality com from or are we just blunt egoists?"

[13:38] herman Bergson: and in that respect religion is a marginal aspect in the discussion to me

[13:38] Merlin: Im not sure how the topic came up

[13:38] Merlin: Im pretty sure it wasn't me

[13:39] Dain Shan: Somehow we drifted into it

[13:39] herman Bergson: And the book I bring to your attention....published recently gives good arguments for a specific interpretation of human nature

[13:39] Dain Shan: I think if the talk comes to God .. there will be religion involved

[13:39] Karsten Runningbear: living beings got 2 aims: survive and reproduce

[13:39] Merlin: Yes Karsten

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Dain....and it is a sensitive issue.....

[13:39] Karsten Runningbear: there is no room for god

[13:40] Merlin: You only need look at animals ... I think you said that

[13:40] herman Bergson: not even a seat Karsten :-))

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: I believe in science

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: when science tells me there is a god i believe it

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cause i have never seen or experienced anything godlike ever

[13:40] Oceane: anytime Bejita?

[13:40] herman Bergson: To quote de Waal....

[13:40] Karsten Runningbear: science told people earth is a plate some years ago

[13:41] herman Bergson: Whether there exists a god or not is irrelevant for morality.....that is born into our nature

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes but then they had never seen it from space, now we know its round cause we have actually seen that that is the fact

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and other planets as well

[13:41] herman Bergson: No Karsten..the lack of knowledge told people that the earth was flat....

[13:42] herman Bergson: With the increase of astronomical observations this idea became more and more implauseble

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Karsten Runningbear: i agree, but people believed the wrong theory a long time

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: when u see the earth from a satelite or space in general u don't see a disc, u see a sphere

[13:43] herman Bergson: To correctly interpret the observations they had to assume that the earth had to be round...

[13:43] Merlin: I notice the gender balance here has taken a dive

[13:43] Merlin: lol

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: so u see fact and then u can 100 % believe it

[13:43] Merlin: (only joking)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:43] herman Bergson: and that assumption explained immediately a lot of other observations

[13:44] herman Bergson: THAT is a correct observation,Merlin :-))

[13:44] Merlin: hehehe

[13:44] herman Bergson: Should I be worried about that ? ^_^

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well...are there any questions left torturing your soul?

[13:46] Merlin: Is this course getting near the end?

[13:46] herman Bergson experiences a solemn silence

[13:46] Oceane: chuckles

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes I would say so Merlin....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Since there are no questions left....

[13:47] Merlin: There is another meeting at this time on Tuesdays and I would like to see this one through to the end

[13:47] herman Bergson: I see...

[13:48] herman Bergson: But I think maybe one or two lectures....and then the new project on Eastern Philosophy

[13:48] Dain Shan: Definetely gave me food for thought

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Oceane: great class herman :)

[13:48] Merlin: aaah Eastern Philosophy huh?

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes:)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: that will be interesting

[13:48] herman Bergson: Thank you Oceane

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[[13:48] Merlin: Well no doubt I would still follow it on the web site if I dont come every time

[13:48] Karsten Runningbear: great, thank you herman

[13:48] Oceane: you are welcome herman :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: I gonna try to make it a kind of comparative philosophy....

[13:49] herman Bergson: Looking with our Western eyes at Asian thought.....

[13:49] Merlin: Well I am interested in Confucianism

[13:49] Dain Shan: Now that's an interesting topic ^^

[13:49] Merlin: and Taoism

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:50] Oceane: :)

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: looks forward to this

[13:50] herman Bergson: Confucius is indeed interesting....

[13:50] Merlin: Its a pity that it all happens at this time. Actually as Oceane will know there is yet another meeting at this time too

[13:50] Merlin: thats Three

[13:51] Oceane: yes I know Merlin- but one has to make up his or her mind, Merlin :)

[13:51] herman Bergson grins

[13:51] herman Bergson: I dont mind..I am in for the competition ^_^

[13:52] Merlin: yes. well I prefer this to the DS Academy at present but I have another one on supernatural things to interest me too

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: supernatural stuff is cool as well

[13:52] herman Bergson: no primate ever needed supernatural things for his evolution :-)

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: lot of stuff in this category that is really nice

[13:52] Merlin: yes, all these things are related

[13:53] Merlin: Hmm ... Except one Herman?

[13:53] Merlin: Man

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes..maybe man has more fears than other primates

[13:54] herman Bergson: for instance the fear of death...

[13:54] herman Bergson: We KNOW that we are going to die....

[13:54] Merlin: Yes, well as I have said I find it very informative to consider other animals

[13:54] Merlin: The biologists seem to have the best understanding of philosophy imo

[13:54] herman Bergson: there is a vague indication that chimpanzees have some understanding of death....

[13:55] Oceane: well sometimes we push this thought aside, herman, and pretend that we don´t see...

[13:55] herman Bergson: in the sense that the dead one will never return again

[13:55] Merlin: hmm yes

[13:56] herman Bergson: as I said Oceane....we have more fears than the other primates

[13:56] OceaneOceane nods

[13:56] Merlin: I could belive that too

[13:56] herman Bergson: One cause is our knowledge of time...

[13:56] Merlin: Some animals can be amazingly courageous

[13:57] Merlin: but perhaps they are just ignorant of the dangers?

[13:57] Dain Shan: The line between know courage and unknown courage is very very thin

[13:57] herman Bergson: Could be merlin...

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:57] Karsten Runningbear: most of our fear is acquired

[13:58] herman Bergson: Yes Karsten....

[13:58] herman Bergson: Some even claim that our fear of snakes and spiders go back to our prehistoric anscestors

[13:59] Karsten Runningbear: hmm, we should have fear of cats ^^

[13:59] Karsten Runningbear: she have eaten us

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hahaha why ? they are so cute ㋡

[13:59] Oceane: lol

[13:59] Merlin: we fear things that are no danger to us, and yet we do not fear the things which are a danger

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: unless its a lion u mean

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:00] Dain Shan: tell that a nearly 200 kg heavy hungry tiger ^^

[14:00] Merlin: Oh well. Its time for me to go home

[14:00] Dain Shan: Have a good one Merlin

[14:00] Oceane: good night Merlin

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu Merlin

[14:00] Merlin: Goood night everyone

[14:00] herman Bergson: Now we are off to the zoo it is a good moment to conclude this session :-)

[14:00] Karsten Runningbear: bye merlin

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[14:01] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: well time for an event for me

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

464: The Art Not toBe an Egoist 29

Last night I watched the movie "The Fifth Element" (1997), starring Bruce Willis and again I was presented with the common misconception about human nature.

There was a dialog between the hero and the girl, who is going to help to save the world. She just had seen all kinds of war scenes on a screen, when she learnt words beginning with "W".

Then you get this dialog.....

Girl   : Man act so strange...

Hero : What do you mean?

Girl   : Everything you created is used to destroy...

Hero : yeah, we call it human nature

Up to now I have tried to show you that it isn't the case at all that human nature is intrinsicly destructive. On the contrary, in fact human nature is intrinsicly based on cooperation and the desire to be recognized and respected by the other.

The title of this project "The Art Not to Be an Egoist" refers to our drive to be good and our observation, that we do not always succeed in our goal.

The main reason for this is the limitations of our brain. On the on hand we love to believe that we have a Self, a MInd, in other words, some rock solid stable something, which makes us the person who we are.

Reality is, however, that such stable "something" does not exist and that the situation we are in is far more complex. Our brain is a constant turmoil of conflicting drives, emotions, ideas, expectations. 

And then it is an Art to find your way around within the perspective that our brain has evolved in the context of the group. The "fittests" were those who best interacted with their environment and the other members of the group.

We have a highly developed  capability of forming groups. It fits our needs, but also implies a danger. A group is a limited number of individuals, there are also "the others", those who are not a member of our group.

Can you image the scene …. a cosy and lively saloon. A piano is playing.Then the little folding doors swing open. Suddenly a deep silence. The piano stops playing and all faces turn slowly to the door: a stranger has entered.

We tend to stick to our group. In the innermost circle you find family, parents , brothers and sisters, ants and uncles. In the next circle you find close friends. In the third circle you find people you just know. And outside that you find the rest of the world.

Here we run into this mysterious wiring of our brain. How far extends our love,  sympathy, altruism, willingness to cooperate? Let me give you an example:

there is a train out of control. It runs at high speed to a railway exchange. You are standing next to the lever. There are two tracks. The train is heading for track one.

On track one are 5 railroad workers busy. On track two is only one at work. Nobody notices the oncoming train…..only you.

What would you do. Pull the lever and lead the train onto track two, or would you do nothing?

More than 300.000 people all over the world have answered this question and the result is always the same: 75% of the people would pull the lever and send the train onto track two, so that there is only one victim.

A rational calculation, you would say. A clear difference between one victim or five victims. 

Now we make the situation slightly different. 

On track one are the five workers busy and on track two is your only child at work. The train is coming on heading for track one. Would you pull the lever?

When asked - and I think you see it coming - nobody would pull the lever to send the train onto track one.

There is probably no clearer way to imagine the difference between a general rational morality and our subjective sense of personal morality.

Does this mean that we are unable to stick to one theory of ethics and that we measure with double standards, that we preach A and do B. Yet an egoist going for his own clan?

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...this example is a classic :-)

[13:21] .: Beertje :.: it would feel if I murdered my own son..nobody can ask me to do that

[[13:21] herman Bergson: no...

[13:22] herman Bergson: I think that there is no answer to this dilemma...

[13:22] Merlin: Well it's a different course and mostly different people here

[13:23] herman Bergson: what is shows is that a Kantian rational ethics doesn't tell the whole story about us

[13:23] Merlin: I should also repeat that in LAW you should do NOTHING

[13:23] herman Bergson: But do we all live with double standards....is THAT the reality of every day then?

[13:24] herman Bergson: There you have an interesting point Merlin....

[13:24] Merlin: TY :)

[13:24] herman Bergson: Let me add an example....

[13:24] herman Bergson: We all favor our own children above other children....

[13:25] herman Bergson: But suppose we would expect that the teacher in their class also should favor our children above others....

[13:25] herman Bergson: I think we would demand exactly the opposite...

[13:26] herman Bergson: that he treats all children as equal...

[13:26] Clerisse Beeswing: let our children fight for the teacher favoritism

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is a moral principle that transcends our primary impulse regarding group members

[13:27] herman Bergson: which in fact shows that we are able to accept moral principles that go further than the care for our own group....

[13:27] herman Bergson: And that is what you made me think of Merlin

[13:28] herman Bergson: To rule a community members accept rules....

[13:28] herman Bergson: even when it means that your children are not favored above other children....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Like you never should interfere with the trains and where they go

[13:29] herman Bergson: in that sense maybe you could say that in a moral sense best is to do nothing...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Is that what you had in Mind Merlin?

[13:30] Merlin: Hmm I am not sure about the moral side of it....

[13:30] Merlin: I was just saying what the law would expect

[13:30] herman Bergson: well doing nothing is a chosen action too

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: it's giving away responsibility to something abstract - like a law

[13:30] Merlin: Hmmm I don't think so in law

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes, but the law is exactly the example of rules transcending group favoritism....which we accept as a way to organize our community

[13:31] Merlin: Can you be guilty of manslaughter for turning away?

[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: Well I have a situation like that

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: you can merlin

[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: I work in the medical field

[13:31] Toubinator Hermit: how long is the time i can think about it befor it is an chosen action ?

[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: I am not trained to do cpr nor do I know it but should I do it

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: some people also might be shocked and can't act

[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: human nature makes me act

[13:32] herman Bergson: Listen to Clerisse plz

[13:32] herman Bergson: what is CPR, Clerisse?

[13:33] Merlin: Some police or firemen in UK declined to rescue somebody because they had not do a course on the use of ladders

[13:33] Melinda Nyn: that is horrific!

[13:33] Clerisse Beeswing: cpr is when you revive someone who can not breathe with mouth to mouth and heart palpatation

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: cardio pulmonale rescue?

[13:33] herman Bergson: I see...

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: or reanimation

[13:34] herman Bergson: kind of reanimation

[13:34] Melinda Nyn: but that is no longer accepted... only heart palpitation.... mouth to mouth is no longer done

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:34] Clerisse Beeswing: Yes your close Lizzy

[13:34] Merlin: anyway for the record that dilemma is called the Trolley Problem

[13:34] Merlin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

[[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes it is Merlin, thank you

[13:34] herman Bergson: Lot of literature about that too :-)

[13:35] Merlin: I have been frantically trying to find it ;)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: checking

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: did you want to continue your story Clerisse?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well We have a similar problem here Clerisse...

[13:36] Clerisse Beeswing: Well at a hospital where I work I could not use it cause I do not know how

[13:36] Clerisse Beeswing: but on the outside if someone was to instruct me on the phone or next to me I would

[13:36] Merlin: There is a difference between breaking workplace rules and breaking the law

[13:36] herman Bergson: employees at care centers for old people are asked to distribute medication, tho they are not qualified for it...

[13:37] Clerisse Beeswing: Yes I very upset about that story

[13:37] herman Bergson: such things are law, I think Merlin

[13:37] Melinda Nyn: that is so true...

[[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:37] Clerisse Beeswing: if your a nurse your should be able to give cpr or if you have the knowledge you should be able to give it

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...were does it leave us from a moral point of view?

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: thats definitely not a supportive act Merlin ;)

[13:38] Merlin: hahaha

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: everybody should have the knowledge

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:38] herman Bergson: I did not respond to your remark Toubi, because it leads to quite a different issues

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: if u work with a think its the workplaces responsibility to educate in everything u may use or situation u might encounter

[13:40] Clerisse Beeswing: I think moral issues and law to play in a lot of what we do

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: while doing your work

[13:40] herman Bergson: I think that our situation is like this......

[13:40] herman Bergson: on the one hand we have our everyday ethics....

[13:40] herman Bergson: which means you favor your children and little things like that...

[13:41] herman Bergson: on the other hand....to organize a much larger group....a town a country...the world population....

[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: I do not have kids or want them but yes I favor all kids and everything else

[13:41] herman Bergson: there we lack our feelings of sympathy and love.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: I mean we can not love all individuals on this planet......

[13:42] herman Bergson: but we can love the idea of loving them and act accordingly....

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Louna

[13:42] Oceane: hi louna  :)

[13:42] louna: smiles and waves around silently

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hi Louna

[13:42] herman Bergson: thus creating Human rights, or Amnesty International and the like

[13:43] louna: hello everyone ! smiles

[13:43] herman Bergson: then to get back to the previous lecture....

[13:43] herman Bergson: it is all restricted by culture, that is different cultures at the moment

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well..I'll give you time to think about all this :-))

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: we have a lot to think about again

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: doesn't this conflict between the 2 morals lead to in honesty often?

[13:45] Clerisse Beeswing: but don't us humans do that weight the good and bad stuff

[13:45] herman Bergson: could be the case indeed Lizzy....

[13:46] herman Bergson: if you let your subjective standards prevail over generally accepted standards

[13:46] Merlin: Honesty puzzles me a bit because for example there is not much about it in Christianity

[13:47] herman Bergson: You don't need to Merlin...you always can confess your sins ^_^

[13:47] Merlin: hahaha

[13:47] Clerisse Beeswing: lol

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:48] herman Bergson: One final organizational remark....

[13:48] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Lizzy Pleides donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:48] herman Bergson: Next class will be om APRIL SECOND - 2 April....

[13:48] herman Bergson: so you all get a week off ^_^

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: on pre-easter holiday?

[13:48] SteveZodi: hehe

[13:48] Clerisse Beeswing: Nice another break for you professor

[13:49] herman Bergson: In the meantime I am also thinking about the subject of a new project

[13:49] herman Bergson: maybe you can help me with that

[13:49] herman Bergson: for now I have two options....

[13:49] herman Bergson: one is: The origins of Evil

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: nida rümlin - practical philosophy in politics? ;)

[13:49] Oceane: grins

[13:50] herman Bergson: the second is: Not -western philosophy....

[13:50] herman Bergson: So China and India mainly

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: both interesting

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: do both Herman..one after the other

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy...that is always the problem ^_^

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aaa they seems both very interesting

[13:50] herman Bergson: Oh I certainly will Beertje....

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: problem solved then:)

[13:51] herman Bergson: My question is more...which one first:-))

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: the first one is a good thing to have after this subject and then we can take the other one

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: i prefere the second at first

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes I tend to that too Lizzy....

[13:51] SteveZodi: I admit that non-western philosophy could be very interesting, we probably can pounder both weight and see interesting good in both sides..

[13:51] herman Bergson: Just to do something completely different for a while

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: aaa works for me

[13:52] Clerisse Beeswing: right shake our brains up

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: we are so good, we can talk about the evil later ^^

[13:52] herman Bergson: Welll Steve...it certainly will be comparative philosophy...

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: heheheh

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha lizzy

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] .: Beertje :.: lol Lizzy

[13:52] herman Bergson: a comparison between Western and non Western philosophy

[13:52] SteveZodi: yes, exactly thats why i find it appealing

[13:52] .: Beertje :.: sounds very interesting

[13:53] herman Bergson: Ok... then the next project...not sure when this one will end...but it is close

[13:53] herman Bergson: will be Non-Western Philosophy...

[13:53] SteveZodi: you will send notice i guess?

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: sounds really interesting

[13:53] herman Bergson: Of course the group will be informed Steve

[13:54] Merlin: I sort-of hoped this was a BDSM-free zone

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: but i can only be here at 9 april :-(

[13:54] herman Bergson: Ahh....

[13:54] herman Bergson: Don't worry Lizzy

[13:54] Clerisse Beeswing: Going to miss you Lizzy

[13:54] herman Bergson: You mean the kneeling lady Merlin?

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: are you going on holiday Lzzy?

[13:55] Merlin: I have discussed that with another lady here

[13:55] Merlin: Yes

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: yes

[13:55] Merlin: It is about acting appropriate to the place you are in

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: nice ㋡

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes....indeed...

[13:55] herman Bergson: I made new chairs

[13:55] SteveZodi: smiles

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: :)¨

[13:56] herman Bergson: On the other hand....I have also allowed animals and strange creatures to attend the class

[13:56] Saw-Whet Owl (Shoulder)Saw-Whet Owl (Shoulder) spies a grasshopper flying by and decides to investigate.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Gemma and Qwark have been big birs for a while for instance..some years ago

[13:56] Merlin: I noticed

[13:56] herman Bergson: But I agree with you that animals should shut up..:-)

[13:57] Merlin: lol

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: ok ok - i'm quiet ;)

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: lol ciska

[13:57] herman Bergson: Cause me extra work when editing the discussion ^_^

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:57] Merlin: Yes I wondered if that owl would be in the blog

[13:57] herman Bergson: unless their contribution is to the discussion of course

[13:57] herman Bergson: No it wont Merlin

[13:58] Merlin: Well if my comment about it is still in, it wont make sense

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: what about the smell......

[13:58] herman Bergson: I'll remove your well pointed comment Merlin :-)

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: well ok - thank you herman - i need to run - have a great day or evening everyone ㋡

[13:59] Merlin: ty :)

[13:59] herman Bergson: or I could leave one line of the owl in :-)

[13:59] Merlin: yes, hahahaha

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:59] SteveZodi: thank yo lizzy, its nice of you

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: this was nice as usual

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:59] herman Bergson: With regard to the way Iouna wants to attend the class I have no objection....

[14:00] herman Bergson: What is important is the quality and fairness in your participation....

[14:00] SteveZodi: thank you prof herman

[[14:00] herman Bergson: Whether you look like a crow or a kneeling lady or have yellow hair

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ah

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hehehe¨

[14:00] Saw-Whet Owl (Shoulder)Saw-Whet Owl (Shoulder) spies a grasshopper flying by and decides to investigate.

[14:00] louna: smiles to Sir Herman "thank you for that class Sir"

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting Lecture!.... applause* herman & class!

[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[14:01] Merlin: Pah

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[14:01] herman Bergson: You are welcome Iouna

[14:01] Oceane: excellent class, herman :)

[14:01] Merlin: Part-time subbies, role players

[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all :-) see you on 2. april

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: yes :)¨

[14:01] herman Bergson: In a way it is fun when people like to come here as they like....

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all ㋡

[14:01] SteveZodi: thank you prof, it was nice, I will surely attend soon again, its interesting :)

[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: LOS GEHTS!

[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: #°*** BABA ***°#

[14:02] louna: thank you Lizzy "smiles"

[14:02] herman Bergson: as long as it does not interfere with the proceedings of the class...

[14:02] Merlin: Me too. Bye everyone

[14:02] herman Bergson: SO.,,,thank you all...

[14:02] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[14:02] Clerisse Beeswing: Thank you professor

[14:02] herman Bergson: See you again April 2

[14:03] Clerisse Beeswing: Great class

[14:03] SteveZodi: smiles and stands up Bows to th teacher , have a good day

[14:03] Clerisse Beeswing: See you in April I hope

[14:03] Toubinator Hermit: thank you

[14:03] .: Beertje :.: fijne vakantie Herman

[14:03] Oceane: thank you, herman :)

[14:03] herman Bergson: you are welcome Steve

[14:03] louna: raises

[14:03] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight everyone

[14:04] SteveZodi: goodnight

[14:04] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[14:04] Lizzy Pleides: night everybody

[14:04] SteveZodi: night lizzy

[14:04] herman Bergson: night Lizzy ^_^

[14:06] Oceane: so louna how did you like it ? ;)

[14:06] herman Bergson: If you still have any questions...plz..go ahead

463: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 28

In the previous lecture I showed you that war is not a necessary consequence of human nature. There are at least 70 peoples known, which never have been to war among each other.

Then, when we all have the same brain, where does it go wrong? To give you the paradox: it is caused by the unlimited capabilities of our limited mind.

Let's have a closer look at that. All we know about the world we know by our private brain. It creates the colors and images, the smells and feelings, ideas and thoughts.

We experience it as our Self. How we come to this experience of a Self , is a great mystery of the brain, which is pretty unwilling to show us the secret.

We know that several areas in our head are responsible for the emergence of our Self. Seven billion people on this earth, at least every healthy human being, who can say "I am", can't be mistaken. The Self is a perceived reality.

But precisely, only a perceived reality, created by our brain. Our ego, our self, our self-image and self-esteem exist only as a mysterious product of our brain. 

And what others of us are experiencing is just a shell: our bodies, our eyes, movements and words, but never our ego.

Rather, the others form their own impression of our I.

It is a typical myth of our culture to assume that the Self is some rock solid unchanging something, that makes a person who his is. However, our Self is a volatile substance. Are not our self-image and self-esteem constantly depending on situations and moods?

Our brain is evolutionary primarily designed to live our daily life, and not to asks questions like: Is there life after death? or Where does the universe end?

What we experience as our reality, is limited to what our brain is capable of to show us. We don't see ultra-violet light like insects do, nor do we feel the magnetic field shifts of the earth like sharks and wales do.

Also in our moral judgements we are limited in that way. We look at things situationally. We can not see the whole reality. We see it from our point of view related to our self image.

Contrary to animals we are able to transcend living in Here and Now. We can reconstruct the past and we can plan for the future.

Morally we can do the same. We can care about people thousands of miles away, believe in a world peace, think of general principles of Justice, Fairness, Responsibility.

Advocates of Reason, like Kant, have built whole theories on all we can theoretically think of. but this didn't lead to objective moral judgements.

We are no calculators, nor logic machines or computers. We do not, like some philosophers claimed, make all our actions depend on what the greatest profit would be.

Our actions and moral judgements are still dominated by instincts and intuitions, and we often tend to focus on the unimportant.

Gossip magazines and tabloids have a larger circulations than Newsweek or Time magazine. We know more titles of TV series than names of philosophers.

At this stage in the evolution of the brain, we live in a mixed reality. When we act morally, then we do not act in a world of universal moral principles, but in a world of situations, our private situation.

Though we know that it is possible to live in peace, we are imprisoned in our own situation, which you could call, culture, 

or maybe even better a culture of interests and as the world today shows, our brain is not yet capable of integrating all conflicting thoughts,  impulses, drives and instincts it is made of.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] myxtc: I feel so dumb now

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:21] Debbie DJ: interesting..

[13:21] myxtc: :-)

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: basically our brain is like a computer processor that is to slow for the work it need to do

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: so cant handle all input we get

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or eremarks...the floor is yours :-)

[13:21] herman Bergson: I would like to disagree Bejiita....

[13:22] herman Bergson: it is a big mistake to compair our brain with a com[uter....

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: i know sometimes when i feel i get more then i can handle

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: well a computer is just a machine

[13:22] Debbie DJ: I read your lecture from thursday, and agree with your thesis that we are manipulated (into war) by a ruling class to protect their interests. We are manipulated through some kind of pseudo ethics...

[13:22] herman Bergson: if ti were like a computer we really would be logically and one dimensionally thinking individuals

[13:23] herman Bergson: Was a documentary on the Iraq war...

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: well thats true, a computer only do what we tell it and it cant feel what it does

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: we can

[13:23] Debbie DJ: in the sense that we are threatened by exclusion... and the use of words like "terrorist"

[13:23] herman Bergson: Bush and Blair literally lied us into that war

[13:23] herman Bergson: and Dick Chenney

[13:23] Debbie DJ: The propaganda machine sets values, and the group adopts them

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes i read about that

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that war have caused lot of suffering and more terror for nothing

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: almost nothing at least

[13:24] Debbie DJ: So while we do things to feel good, sometimes the things we have to do are controlled by others.

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: every war does

[13:25] myxtc: I don't know if war is caused by the ruling class to protect their interests. I feel protected by my government when the security of my country is threatened

[13:25] herman Bergson: All ads on TV try to reach that goal Debbie

[13:25] Debbie DJ: So it seems that the strong amongst us, may have different values, or ethical standards?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well....we have human right movements, Amnesty International, Green Peace etc.

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Like, do you think bush was deluded, or greedy?

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: they don't have debbie

[13:26] Mick Nerido: Religion tries to set ethical standards for a society

[13:26] herman Bergson: Bush wanted to finish what his father had begun....kicking out Saddam Hussein

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Mick, religen is dealt with in previous lectures ;)

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: and he motivated the war with weapons of mass destruction wich were never there

[13:27] Debbie DJ: so his"ethics" were about pleasing dad,?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Religion had as a function to unite the group, the tribe....

[13:27] herman Bergson: to make people feel responsible for more than only their own family

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: Bush is a man of revenge who act in pure rage without thinking very much id say

[13:27] Mick Nerido: The 10 commandments are moral values

[13:28] herman Bergson: Sure they are Mick

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: he acts first and think later

[13:28] herman Bergson: But the moral values weren't invented by the 10 commandments...

[13:28] Mick Nerido: We don't always follow them though

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: indeed we don't

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: only a president who made a war is a good president, how many presidents dod hot make wars?

[13:29] herman Bergson: the 10 commandments are the transcription of social rules in a group

[13:29] Debbie DJ: so to me, it seems that Aristotle says human nature is about fitting in and feeling part of it. Yet the leaders often move outside of those goals, and are motivated by power and greed, and not bound by ethics.

[13:29] Mick Nerido: We say God bless our country...

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is fact is our problem Debbie

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is not only the leaders.

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Yep.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Like we have a party that is xenophobe....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a common problem indeed it seems and a BIG problem

[13:30] herman Bergson: or antisemit

[13:30] Debbie DJ: It is often just citizens being greedy or uncaring?

[13:30] herman Bergson: or racist...

[13:30] myxtc: I can't agree with that, debbie

[13:30] herman Bergson: Leaders can use that

[13:31] Debbie DJ: What bit Myx?

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: the big guys are the ones that does this when they get too much power

[13:31] myxtc: power and greed

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and just want more and more without thinking of anyone else

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Well, the proof is in the eating - there are wars, even now.

[13:32] Debbie DJ: and there is unbridled consumerism , even though we know its a bad idea.

[13:32] herman Bergson: In case of the Iraq war it is a real question why Blair and Bush explicitly lied...

[13:32] herman Bergson: They as leaders wanted that war...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: at any cost no matter the consequences

[13:33] herman Bergson: meant more than 4000 american casualties to begin with

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:33] Debbie DJ: And that was minor compared to the 200 000 iraqi deaths

[13:33] myxtc: I believe they 'wanted' it, as you say, to ultimately protect their countries.

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: read an article in the news today at work about it, so horrible everything

[13:34] Debbie DJ: myx - we cant fight for peace.

[13:34] herman Bergson: I disagree with that Myxtc...because all intelligence showed that there was no threat at all

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: no only makes more violence

[13:34] myxtc: we can't sit back and be destroyed, either

[13:34] Merlin: I just found a quote from Desmond Morris I was looking for.....

[13:35] Merlin: We already know that if our populations go on increasing at their present terrifying rate, uncontrollable aggressiveness will become dramatically increased. This has been proved conclusively with laboratory experiments. Gross overcrowding will produce social stresses and tensions that will shatter our community organizations long before it starves us to death.

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: Nr. 43 - George W. Bush: Afghanistan, Irakkrieg II

Nr. 42 - Bill Clinton: Kosovo

Nr. 41 - George Bush "Senior": Irakkrieg I, Invasion in Panama

Nr. 40 - Ronald Reagan: Invasion in Grenada

Nr. 39 - Jimmy Carter: Mr. Friedensnobelpreis, wirklich nur "Kalter Krieger"?

Nr. 38 - Gerald Ford: Vietnamkrieg, Mayaguez-Zwischenfall in Kambodscha

Nr. 37 - Nixon: Vietnamkrieg

Nr. 36 - Lyndon B. Johnson: Vietnamkrieg

Nr. 35 - John F. Kennedy: Erste Truppen in Vietnam

Nr. 34 - Eisenhower: Koreakrieg

Nr. 33 - Harry S. Truman: Pazifikkrieg, Koreakrieg,

[13:35] herman Bergson: There wasn't the slightest proof that it was in th epower of Saddam that he could even cause a scratch

[13:35] Debbie DJ: Little cahnce of that. But how do you think smaller countries feel when terrorised by helicopters and drones?

[13:36] herman Bergson: before we continue discussing politics....

[13:36] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:36] Debbie DJ: sorry.

[13:36] herman Bergson: the subject was how our brain tries to deal with moral judgments

[13:36] myxtc: we should wait for attack from n korea and etc?

[13:36] myxtc: sry

[13:36] Debbie DJ: Oh no - lets go kill them first...

[13:36] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:36] herman Bergson: and that we are a combination of instincts on the one hand and a cool rationality on the other hand

[13:37] herman Bergson: The discussion on war here is realted to the instinct of fear for instance

[13:37] Mick Nerido: We compartmentalize, like eat cows but not horses

[13:38] herman Bergson: all rationality is missing here

[13:38] myxtc: I agree with prof bergson's philosophy on this subject of what the brain can comprehend if not the accusations towards blair and bush

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Drones are the extreme example of immoral and unethical behaviour - especially when they get weddings by mistake.

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: so horrible, make me really sad

[13:38] myxtc: how is a mistake immoral and unethical?

[13:39] herman Bergson: These drones are the overestimation of technology

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: mostly they kill innocent civilians

[13:39] herman Bergson: the believe that we can fight a clean war

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: while the soldiers think its a computer game or feels like one at least

[13:39] myxtc: really, I don't know...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: looking on their screens

[13:39] Debbie DJ: Killing people by remote controle ? can you think of anything more grotesque?

[13:39] Mick Nerido: drones beginning of robot wars

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:39] herman Bergson: They don't think that at all Bejiita....

[13:39] herman Bergson: It is a known fact that they are under great stress....

[13:40] myxtc: killing ppl by remote control is immoral and unethical.

[13:40] herman Bergson: They also know that they can hit innocent civilians

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: but the danger is still there, when you are in safety and just have this remote thing capable of such things

[13:40] myxtc: I ask about the morality and ethics of mistakes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: well i don't know but i don't like these drones at all after what i have seen and heard about them

[13:40] herman Bergson: killing people as such is immoral....

[13:41] herman Bergson: by drone or car bomb or gun

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: rockets could do that too and bombs, you don't see whom you kill

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:41] Debbie DJ: mistakes are not the issue - flying killing machines is immoral.

[13:41] myxtc: medical science has killed ppl by mistake when searching for good

[13:41] herman Bergson: the means is an academic question

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: killing is never good

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: true Bejiita

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: or moral

[13:41] Debbie DJ: true. but the medical mistake was meant for the good of the victim.

[13:42] herman Bergson: the morality is not in the deed but in the intention of the deed

[13:42] myxtc: sorry, debbie, when you said '...especially by mistake' I got confused lol.

[13:42] Debbie DJ: :)

[13:42] Debbie DJ: my bad sentence construction...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Drones, car bombs, guns are intended to kill people...

[13:42] myxtc: drones are meant for the good of the ppl, too, I think

[13:42] myxtc: ultimately

[13:42] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman, good class!

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: well u can use the drone concept for other things then war , have read some examples

[13:43] herman Bergson: not a single arm is eventually for the good of any people....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: that seem promising

[13:43] Debbie DJ: sorry myx - im not a supporter of military agression, or demonstrations of shock and awe, or bullying , or terrorism.

[13:43] herman Bergson: killing can never be for the good of the people

[13:43] myxtc: that is true, prof bergson, I agree

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:44] herman Bergson: There are peoples with hardly any violence. let alone killing or war....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: me too

[13:44] herman Bergson: Human beings are able to live together in that way....

[13:44] Merlin: The man who ran a TV game called Robot Wars is a robotics expert and he condemns the use of robots in actual war.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: so the question is why don't we?

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: culture?

[13:44] myxtc: I am a pacifist but a pacifism didn't make my country secure, i'm sad and sorry to say

[13:45] Merlin: hmm well...

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Neither does aggression.

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita.....war is made by culture....not by our innate human nature

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: must be that

[13:45] herman Bergson: It is a proven fact that it is possible to live without violence...

[13:45] myxtc: no, debbie that is true - my country was also never an aggressor

[13:46] Debbie DJ: which is your country mix?

[13:46] myxtc: it is irrelevant

[13:46] Merlin: Exactly, I wondered that too

[13:46] Debbie DJ: ok. it is.

[13:46] Merlin: There is little point in mentioning your country if we do not know what it is

[13:47] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:47] Debbie DJ: you made it irrelevant -

[13:47] myxtc: many countries are secure without aggression and power and greed which is why any one country that is, is irrelevant

[[13:47] herman Bergson: let's leave out countries....

[13:47] myxtc: thank you, prof, bergson

[13:47] herman Bergson: There is one final observation I want to share with you....

[13:48] herman Bergson: There are about 70 peoples that dont know war...dont go to war....

[13:48] herman Bergson: But all these peoples are tribes....tribal communities, like indians of the amazon...living in such a natural state...

[13:48] Merlin: There was an interesting item on War on bbc Radio4 this morning

[13:49] Merlin: He gave interesting reasons for wars rather like those we have talked about here

[13:49] herman Bergson: btw...the amazon indians are very aggressive and apt to war

[13:49] Merlin: There was an example in PNG

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes I can imagine merlin

[13:49] Merlin: Papua New Guinea in Australasia

[13:49] Debbie DJ: The bushmen of South Africa don't wage war.

[13:50] herman Bergson: It is the complexity of our present "civilization" that doesn't make things easier regarding matters of war and peace

[13:50] Merlin: Well in PNG they were continually at war in minor ways at one time

[13:50] Merlin: When the rulers showed them their guns and power over them they stopped

[13:50] myxtc: I didn't follow what you said about the ppls who don't war, prof. who are they?

[13:51] Merlin: Well... thats what this program  said

[13:51] herman Bergson: there is a site ....

[13:51] herman Bergson: www.peacefulsocieties.org, when I am not mistaken

[13:51] myxtc: thank you! :-)!

[13:52] herman Bergson: if it isn't correct Myxtc then I'll look it up

[13:52] herman Bergson: The list is not complete even

[13:52] myxtc: it seems to b correct - I just brought it up :-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: good

[13:53] myxtc: Buh-bye. :)

[13:53] myxtc: Fare well 'til we meet again...

[13:53] myxtc: oxo...

[13:53] myxtc: Buh-bye! ^__^

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu :9

[13:53] herman Bergson: then, thanx you all for your participation

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hmm this was an interesting subject

[13:53] myxtc: lol.

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: thank you, that was interesting again