468: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 33

Tho I assume in this project that the homo sapiens is a moral being by nature, yet it appears to be a morality with holes in it.

Although we all know what it means to be morally just, it seems that for some reason we have "invented" all kinds of tricks, to get around it.

The point, however, is that all these evasive actions are in general not at all deliberate attempts to get past morality.

As we saw, conformity to the group is a mechanism we easily can be victim of. It take a lot of insight and courage, to overcome it.

Shifting baselines is another actually cultural process, where we see how standards shift from generation to generation.

Let's look at another feature which makes it difficult for us to act morally right and according to our own moral standards.

Begging is "not done", but when everybody does so, it is ok. So once a year all kids may go from home to home and beg for candy and stuff like that. Saint Martin's Day in Europe, with Halloween in the US.

Now, in the 70s two smart psychologist played a trick with the begging children. Next to each front door stood a large basket with candies.

When the kids knocked at the door an adult would open and would point the children at the basket. They all were allowed to take one candy each. Then he closed the door again. You see it come…!

"Hey, man…you took three candies!…..Well then I may have three too!" and so on. But in some situations there was a large mirror behind the basket.

This meant that the one who wanted to take more than one candy could see himself in the mirror.  The result was that there often wasn't a first one who took more than one candy.

Of course this stealing of candy is a matter of conformity to the group. But the mirror often prevented that there was a first one, who took more than one candy.

When forced to look at yourself while performing some action, seems to stimulate to act more morally, than when one doesn't have to think too much about himself.

So, we do not only hide what we are doing for the piercing eyes of others, but pretty much for ourselves as well.

The trick is that a lot of our decisions and actions are not subjected to self conscious considerations and we don't relate them to our self-image.

Take for instance traffic offenders. Lovely subject for TV shows. When interviewed they are amazed. "Me, speeding?" Then seeing the proof, they go like "Oh well yes, I didn't know I drove that fast. Was a bit in a hurry." 

Wasn't there a speedometer in his car?

But taken as a fact, they endangered their own life and the lives of the many other traffic participants. They were, however, not aware of that. 

In this way we can hold ourselves for much better than we morally are. That experiment of those psychologists of course originated from what we all know:

that advise to look in the mirror first before we open our mouth. Haven't you never looked into the mirror at yourself for a while and then got that uncomfortable feeling?

Only few people who observe their own mirror image, do so in peace and serenity. And if so, then is our physical appearance more our focus then our moral integrity.

For when we think about ourselves, then probably it is more often about our appearance and social actions. And when we watch a home video of ourselves,

we are often more surprised about how we look like and how we do things - that strange voice and weird movements - then what we do.

Interesting to see, how we can hide ourselves for ourselves, if it is about the morality of our actions.

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:25] herman Bergson: You all feel guilty now? ^_^

[13:25] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:25] Framdor: morality is like old socks - there is a hole in the soul -

[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: ...LOL...

[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: is all true

[13:25] Beertje Beaumont: grins..

[13:25] herman Bergson: I look at it this way.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: As homo sapiens we have come this far.....

[13:26] Framdor: So we conform to the image of who we like to think we are?

[13:26] herman Bergson: We think we are the end of evolution....at least we tend to believe that....

[13:26] Framdor: because that is the image we think will be well liked?

[13:27] herman Bergson: We think often better of ourselves than we are it seems Debbie :-)

[13:27] herman Bergson: But now you see these flaws...

[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: ask your best friend to be honest when he/she describes you..and then don't be mad when you hear all of it...

[13:27] herman Bergson: conformity to the group, shifting baselines, lack of self attentiveness...

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: oh right

[13:27] Framdor: This is all about POSITIVE self image though...

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: are you kidding??

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: there goes a friendship

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: no..I did once...and it was an eyeopener Gemma'

[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: ;-)

[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: adn what did you do about it

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: just tried to be honest with myself

[13:29] Beertje Beaumont: honest

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: i think each of us could do that

[13:29] Louna Quan: smiles to Beertje

[13:29] herman Bergson: that is my point......

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: yep

[13:29] herman Bergson: in stead of thinking that we are the finished end product of evolution

[13:30] herman Bergson: we are still organisms which adapat to their environment...where the fitests survive...

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: Well that is another thing Dawkins says, That we are no higher evolved than any other animal

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: All have evolved for exactly the same amount of time

[13:30] Beertje Beaumont: the fitest is the one who can uhhmm zichzelf aanpassen aan de omgeving..sorry..my english

[13:30] Framdor: Our moral and ethical values are about feeling ok when we look in the mirror... conforming. Yet we conform to an image that is not really us - because we hide the parts we don't like, so we can feel good? Seems like we are missing the point?

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: And there is no "Goal" to evolution

[13:30] herman Bergson: depends on what you mean by 'higher' Merlin

[13:30] herman Bergson: No there is no goal to evolution....

[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true

[13:31] Beertje Beaumont: Herman can you translate please?

[13:31] Louna Quan: yes Debbie

[13:31] herman Bergson: But we happen to be equipped with a brain, which is unique in tis abilities

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:32] herman Bergson: What should I translate Beertje ?

[13:32] herman Bergson: (Debbie, keep it short:-)

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: we have a much more evolved language while other animals only use sounds of various kinds

[13:32] Framdor: k

[13:32] Beertje Beaumont: [13:30] Beertje Beaumont: the fitest is the one who can uhhmm zichzelf aanpassen aan de omgeving..sorry..my english

[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: scroll back

[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:32] Merlin Saxondale: uhhmm zichzelf aanpassen aan de omgeving..sorry..my english

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and we are the only ones that makes machines and more advanced tools

[13:33] herman Bergson: That is correct Beertje...

[13:33] herman Bergson: If you look at history.....

[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: translate for us!!

[13:33] herman Bergson: in fact it is a process of adaptation.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: tho we had some horrible wars...and still have.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: in the long run, look who survives....

[13:34] Framdor: A wise friend once said we should not look at advantages in a new situation, but weigh up disadvantages first.

[13:34] Framdor: maybe too when we look at our self image ;)

[13:35] Merlin Saxondale: " adapt themselves to the environment ."

[13:35] herman Bergson: The optimist/pessimist approch Debbie?

[13:35] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Merlin:)

[13:35] Merlin Saxondale: :)

[13:35] Framdor: Sort of.

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] Framdor: We always look for the route of profit, despite all the costs, which we ignore.

[13:35] herman Bergson: I think we'll learn in the long run....

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is only now the case Debbie....

[13:36] Framdor: but now we are at our peak???

[13:36] herman Bergson: That whole idea of PROFIT is so seriously exposed and brought to the open in all its negative aspects these days

[13:37] herman Bergson: Some high finance man here said.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: there has to me a broad debate on finances and finacial markets....etc...

[13:37] Framdor: oh yeah? then why do we still make sports cars and overseas holidays?

[13:37] herman Bergson: and lots of people DO debate it....in politics in the media and so on..

[13:38] herman Bergson: and who it the big SILENT one in this debate....

[13:38] Framdor: not more than the hippies did.... your generation sir ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: The banks themselves...

[13:38] Beertje Beaumont: yes true Herman..I never hear them about it

[13:38] herman Bergson: Those profit hunters are scared...

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: folks just do not know how an alternative could look like - so they go on and on and on..

[13:39] Framdor: Silly us....

[13:39] herman Bergson: They know that the are shaved now....so they think...let's sit still :-)

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and lay low

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska....

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: they relay on us not finding an alternative

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: but some folks already start.

[13:40] Framdor: and lie to their own selves... about their ethics.

[13:40] herman Bergson: what is happening today....say since 1989....the fall of the Wall in Berling....

[13:40] Framdor: pretend to be green...

[13:40] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:40] Framdor: and recycle when others are watching -

[13:40] herman Bergson: Exactly Debbie.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: That lieing to themselves to justify actions can go far....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: but when no one looks flush all toxic waste out the sea

[13:40] herman Bergson: shockingly far....

[13:41] herman Bergson: Let me tell you a story...

[13:41] herman Bergson: Reserve Police Battalion 101 ....

[13:41] Beertje Beaumont: I think the economy as it is now is one great soap bubble..one day it will explode

[13:41] herman Bergson: After the war one of the arrested soldiers gave this testimony....

[13:41] herman Bergson: He and his comrade shot people....

[13:42] herman Bergson: His comrade shot the mothers...he only shot the children...

[13:42] herman Bergson: and to justify this in some way he had the thought that these children hadn't any chance anyway without their mother.

[13:42] Framdor: Damn.. So... what is going to fix this problem? we seem incapable due to self delusion, and over consumption

[13:43] herman Bergson: So far can a mind go to cheat itself....to stay stable

[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmmm

[13:43] herman Bergson: No no...Debbie....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Our moral behavior has already much improved since the Middle Ages....

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: i think so too

[13:44] herman Bergson: We do no longer burn women because they are witches...

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: not here anyway

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: i heard of such a burning in the past month

[13:44] herman Bergson: we don't accept torture anymore as a justified method

[13:44] Louna Quan: hehe Gemma

[13:44] Framdor: But we do operate drones that bomb civillians from the sky...

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:44] herman Bergson: Hold on!!!!

[13:44] Framdor: and we did carpet bomb iraq...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: some cultures like in saudi arabia stll treat women horrible these days like they have no valye

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: like they are just things and not humans

[13:45] herman Bergson: I talk about Western Culture where education plays a very important role

[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: Women Killed as ‘Witches,’ in Papua New Guinea, in 2013

[13:45] herman Bergson: Not all parts of this world are in the same stage of human development

[13:45] Framdor: Me too... the westerners make most of the guns and war machines.

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: the story is in the NY Times

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is because of the profits...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Louna Quan: oh really i didn't know about that Gemma

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: like here in sweden

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: ye

[13:46] Framdor: and if you look what excites us - its blood and gore in games and TV

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: i could put the link but not sure if you can get through

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: we are supposed to be natural yet we make and sell tons of heavy artillery to war zones all over

[13:46] herman Bergson: and there you get exactly those crooked arguments why you can make guns...

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/19/women-tortured-killed-as-witches-in-papua-new-guinea-in-2013/

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: cause to make money no matter how many paople gets killed by them

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like in the US the NRA does...

[13:46] Louna Quan: looking

[13:47] herman Bergson: Guns are no evil...

[13:47] Framdor: so - how have we advanced? we can and do kill more easily...lol

[13:47] herman Bergson: only guns in the hands of bad guys are evil

[13:47] Framdor: like the USA?

[13:47] Merlin Saxondale: I don't agree entirely with that about guns

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: indeed however a gun is a device made esp for killing others

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes National Rifle Association loonies

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: one guy here says the only way to defeat a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

[13:48] Merlin Saxondale: They are made for killing and for nothing else

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: thats is its purpose and we have made it

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: Wayne Lapierre

[13:48] Merlin Saxondale: Like Submarines too.. they are entirely for war

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: passing out guns

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: and not to forget these damn nuclear armageddon weapons

[13:48] Framdor: while we don't burn witches, we do poison waterways, and oceans...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: that north korea bullies up with now

[13:49] Merlin Saxondale: Even Jeremy Clarkson condemned guns in a TV programme

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...but they are no option anymore...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: while he threatens to eradicate the planet

[13:49] herman Bergson: except in the hands of in individual fanatic

[13:49] Louna Quan: nods

[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: we do have civilized , so called m ways of burning witches instead

[13:49] Louna Quan: yes

[13:49] Merlin Saxondale: I think the electric chair is somewhat like burning at the stake

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: burn their reputations

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: maybee

[13:50] Framdor: This lecture is very depressing.... I now see that we have very flimsy morals and ethics... and wont stand up for tough principles.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bad comparison Merlin....

[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: it is hard to

[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: don't get too depressed

[13:50] herman Bergson: the electric chair is about the moral acceptablility of killing a human being who has commited a serious crime

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: there is hope i hope

[13:51] Merlin Saxondale: I dont think it is a bad comparison

[13:51] herman Bergson: Debbie ..you lookin the wrong direction....

[13:51] Framdor: Luckily I am generally positive. so ill forget to be depressed by tomorrow.

[13:51] Louna Quan: smiles to Debbie

[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: oh good

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: the glass is already half full....not already half empty

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:52] herman Bergson: As I already said....

[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true when you look at history

[13:52] herman Bergson: we are a stage in evolution...

[13:52] herman Bergson: and there you can see that the homo sapiens yet has learnt a lot.....

[13:52] herman Bergson: and don't talk about periods of 100 years or so...

[13:52] Beertje Beaumont: and need to learn a lot more...

[13:53] Framdor: My glass? It floweth over with love gratitude, peace and happiness...... in my imagination

[13:53] herman Bergson: we have to put it in the context of periods of tens of thousands of years...

[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: is it wine or whiskey?

[13:53] herman Bergson: I could use a whiskey now ^_^

[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:54] Framdor: true- we've only had electricity and petrol engines for 120 years odd.

[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hmm good idea

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Beertje Beaumont: I'll have Port...

[13:54] herman Bergson: we have science for hardly 300 years....

[13:54] Framdor: and we have evolved an insatiable appetite for energy

[13:54] herman Bergson: and technology for hardly 80 years

[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: and now things are changing so fast!!!!

[13:54] Framdor: and covered the whole planet with offspring.

[13:55] herman Bergson: computers since 1984....

[13:55] Framdor: 1980....

[13:55] herman Bergson: well the personal computer I mean here

[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: amazing

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:55] herman Bergson: so tho it looks like super fast developments....

[13:55] Framdor: the first pc was 1980 - the clock on mine got stuck...

[13:55] Framdor: msdos 1.0

[13:55] herman Bergson: projected on the speed of evolution it is a minute in time

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: was was before a whole room of electron tubes now fits in a pocket calculator and the supercomputers of before now fits in my pocket

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: amazing stuff

[13:56] Merlin Saxondale: Windows 3.1 circa 1993

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:56] Framdor: gosh... windows 3.1 was soooo revolutionary back then

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: was my first computer with that

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: a 486

[13:56] Merlin Saxondale: That always surprises me. The nineties!

[13:56] Beertje Beaumont: but made the technology us better responsible people?

[13:57] herman Bergson: They said in the 60s ...we wont make it till 2000...before that the world will be devastated my nuclear winter....

[13:57] Framdor: It made us faster....

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: now i have more then 100 times that in my mobile

[13:57] herman Bergson: and what is the present situation?

[13:57] herman Bergson: Nuclear threat is hardly a political option anymore....

[13:58] herman Bergson: except for lunatics and terrorists

[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: true

[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: and we have one now

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:58] Framdor: it never was a political option - now there are still 17000 nukes operations. In the cuba crisis - it was about 4000

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: yes this is the modern day cuba crisis i d say

[13:58] Louna Quan: yes north Korea

[13:58] herman Bergson: So don't tell me that we do not evolve, learn....find better solutions for problems

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: korea crisis u may call it

[13:59] Merlin Saxondale: I think we are just putting off these problems but not truely solving them

[13:59] herman Bergson: The north Korean threat is only for domestic purposes....

[13:59] Merlin Saxondale: Like building a dam which must eventually break

[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: yeh hopefully

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: aa yes

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: i dont want to either be blown up or slowly killed by radioactivity

[13:59] herman Bergson: Those leaders know exactly that throwing only the smallest nuclear bomb will lead to the complete devastation of North Korea itself...

[14:00] Beertje Beaumont: poor people there...

[14:00] Framdor: ok herman, show me some responsible corporate or governemnt citizens.... that look in the mirror, and do the right thing consistently.

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: aaaw yes

[14:00] Louna Quan: yes

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: i feel so sad for them

[14:00] herman Bergson: It is a kind of brainwashed mad house I would say....

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:00] herman Bergson: and here too....

[14:00] herman Bergson: the complete lack of education leads to this

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: they cant see at all whats really happening in the world and get false images of the world

[[14:01] Bejiita Imako: and their leader as a god

[14:01] herman Bergson: Education IS our future to become better humans

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: totally locked in

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: and starving to death

[14:01] Framdor: I agree about education...

[14:01] Merlin Saxondale: Yes Bejiita, that was said on the BBC radio today

[14:01] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:01] Framdor: thats why I come to Wainscot -

[14:01] herman Bergson: All evolution is based on the learning system....

[14:01] Merlin Saxondale: There are many starving there in N Korea

[14:02] herman Bergson: I think it is a place of horror and concentration camps to suppress the people

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: they live in a prison, feel sad for them,

[14:02] herman Bergson: But I always wonder....

[14:03] herman Bergson: WHOSE INTERESTS are here at work...???

[14:03] herman Bergson: What group of the population profits from this system and wants to keep it unchanged

[14:03] Gemma Cleanslate: third generation punishment to me is amazing

[14:03] Beertje Beaumont: the Greedy God..KIm?

[14:03] Gemma Cleanslate: or the military leaders

[14:03] Framdor: oh... its evolution.... it must be in all of our interests....

[14:03] herman Bergson: More than one person Beertje....

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: time to go now

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: cu Gemma

[14:04] Beertje Beaumont: or is he just a pupet on a string?

[14:04] Merlin Saxondale: Bye Gemma

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: back nex week

[14:04] Framdor: bye gemma ...

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[14:04] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma ..wise to ring the bell.....

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: wowo where did time go!

[14:04] Louna Quan: bye Gemma !

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:04] herman Bergson: My goodness yes Bejiita....!

[[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you all again.....

[14:05] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: nice Herman

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday

[14:05] Framdor: thanks herman.... cu next week....

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:05] Louna Quan: thank you Sir Herman it was a great class

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:05] Merlin Saxondale: Bye everyone

[14:05] herman Bergson: My pleasure Louna...

[14:05] Beertje Beaumont: look in the mirror folks....

[14:05] Louna Quan: bye Bejita

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: btw Herman Ewa Aska says hi

[14:05] Beertje Beaumont: mirror

[14:05] Framdor: and hi louna... glad you got a cushion ;)

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:05] Framdor: aww bye merlin

[14:05] herman Bergson: I put it there for her Debbie :-)

[14:06] Louna Quan: my precious butt has been nurtured by Sir Herman's care

[14:06] Framdor: nice herman... you are a sweetie...

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: cu

[14:06] Framdor: bye friends....

[14:06] Louna Quan: bye Debbie

[14:06] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Louna....I know what to value in SLife :-))

[14:06] Beertje Beaumont: lol

[14:07] Louna Quan: you value peace in groups isn't ?

[14:07] herman Bergson: Indeed I do Louna

[14:07] Louna Quan: well I wish you a good end of day

[14:07] Louna Quan: have a nice evening too Beertje

[14:07] herman Bergson: thank you

[14:08] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Louna

[14:08] Beertje Beaumont: tc

467: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 32

In general nobody regards him or herself as a bad person. We all prefer to be regarded as good people. And yet we can be so evil now and then.

What can go wrong , how simple family men can change into killers we learned in the previous lecture: by conformity to the group.

But also in the individual situation we can loose hold on our moral standards, tho human nature isn't inclined to be the cause of evil.

We often aren't aware of how we shift our moral standards to a next level. Social psychology has a name for this, adopted from ecology: Shifting Baselines.

Shifting Baseline Syndrome refers to a gradual change in our accepted norm for ecological conditions.  

The phrase describes an incremental lowering of standards that results with each new generation lacking knowledge of the historical, and presumably more natural, condition of the environment.  

Therefore, each generation defines what is ‘natural’ or ‘normal’ according to current conditions and their personal experiences.  

With each new generation, the expectations of various ecological conditions shifts.  The result is that our standards are lowered almost imperceptibly.

Daniel Pauly, a Canadian scientist, first elucidated the idea of shifting baselines in a 1995 "Trends in Ecology and Evolution paper". 

He wrote about the gradual accommodation of the disappearance of fish species, how each generation of fishers and marine scientists assumed that the population of fish at the beginning of their career was the standard.

Take for instance a leg, a woman's leg to be more specific. In the Victorian Age you already had to faint seeing a naked ankle. Standard was a totally covered leg.

In the 50s everybody stayed on his feet when seeing a naked calf below the knee. And seeing two completely naked legs of a lady here today in SL doesn't disintegrate anybody's pixels anymore.

More serious becomes the story, when we look at the Milgram experiments, first tried by Stanley Milgram, a 28 year old psychologist in 1961.

How can ordinary, decent people become such immoral murderers and torturers. In camps in WWII, in Vietnam or in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

The basic phenomenon is, that in all these situations obedience seems to push aside someone's conscience.

When put under pressure many people are willing to do things, that they actually think are wrong, if not reprehensible or despicable.

Such a stress situation can be pressure of time, or a situation for which one is completely unprepared, or the emphatic instructions of an authority.

In such a situation ordinary people are obviously capable of alleviating their troubled conscience in that they give up their responsibility.

This is a process of small steps. Eventually, what was experienced as immoral gradually becomes normal: we shift our baseline.

If Hitler in 1933 had told  the German people, that he  was planning to murder 6 million human beings for the only reason that they were jewish, I don't think he would have been applauded for that.

It all shifted step by step. In 1935 came the anit-Jewish racial laws. In 1938 the first synagogues were set to fire and only in the summer of 1941 he began with his "endlösung", the final solution. A gradual shifting of moral standards of almost a whole nation.

Conformity to the group and shifting baselines go often hand in hand. This you find in all aspects of society.

When we are convinced that others cooperate, we cooperate. When we are convinced that nobody cooperates, then we don't cooperate either.

Take tax morale: Greece. Every Greek is convinced that his neighbor is evading taxes, so he does the same.

In a company. Everybody believes that the others don't give their utmost at all…..so why should you, tho your moral conviction is, that you have to put all your energy and motivation in your job.

Maybe secretly you think "actually I behave like an asshole here", but on the other hand you adjust to the situation.

For our self-image however we must stay convinced that "the asshole" and the adapted person are yet one and the same person. 

Next time I'll look into the question how we do that…how these two can go hand in hand……

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Debbie DJ: Oh great lecture thanks Herman

[13:25] herman Bergson: thank you Debbie

[13:25] herman Bergson: Little reason for questions or remarks?

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Group conformity and shifting baselines nix badly with strong egotistical leaders who normalize "evil".

[13:26] Dain Shan: True ..

[13:26] Hakudanoku: thank you Herman

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Like a small mob of armed thieves are easily organized by an individual.

[13:27] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:27] Debbie DJ: Or even a government -

[13:27] herman Bergson: yes..because then they leave the responsibility to the leader...

[13:27] herman Bergson: their individual  responsibility

[13:27] Debbie DJ: Yes. While conforming, unquestioning.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes in that sense the homo sapiens still has a lot to learn

[13:28] Debbie DJ: What effect does TV then have in normalizing imposed economic ethics...

[13:28] Debbie DJ: The mind boggles...

[13:28] herman Bergson: TV is doing even worse Debbie....

[13:29] Debbie DJ: The baseline shifts, and conformity is established

[13:29] herman Bergson: Soem French filmmaker...last name Nick reproduced the Milgram experiment as a TV show...

[13:30] herman Bergson: people from the audience were asked to test a candidate (who was part of the experiment)

[13:30] herman Bergson: and in public most people easily administered heavy electric shocks to the candidate....cheered by the crowd...

[13:30] herman Bergson: This "show" was broadcasted in 2010....

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Obedience pushes aside conscience. ....

[13:31] herman Bergson: France 2

[13:31] herman Bergson: exactly....

[13:31] herman Bergson: not only obedience...

[13:31] herman Bergson: but being on TV also here

[13:31] Debbie DJ: Thats like conformity - wanting to show your best side?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Something like that....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Everybody does it...so.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: It seems that we live with double standards....

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Oh look at me... I am willing to hurt people to look like im part of the group?

[13:32] herman Bergson: personally we hold high moral standards....

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes... in a group they can easily shift it appears

[13:33] herman Bergson: As a matter of fact....a bit scary....

[13:33] Debbie DJ: But we are easily influenced, and at work we often do the strangest things in the name of profit.

[13:34] herman Bergson: That have become clear looking at the behavior of the financial world indeed Debbie

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Green behaviour is a prime example.... we fly around, paying fees to tree planters to offset our carbon emissions

[13:34] herman Bergson: economics is completely detached from ethics nowadays

[13:35] Debbie DJ: and trade carbon cap limits????

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes.

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes..another absurdity....

[13:35] herman Bergson: CO2 rights...

[13:35] Debbie DJ: the very word "rights" is the first error

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes....^_^

[13:36] herman Bergson: I never have understood this....and still dont :-))

[13:37] Debbie DJ: So, what can we do as individuals to help avoid this moral absurdity we find ourselves in, without getting fired or feeling like outcasts?

[13:38] Debbie DJ: In other words how can we avoid being led by the noses?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well..we have seen examples of what happens to people who leak information....

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Manning.... yes.

[13:38] herman Bergson: for instance now the "Offshore-leaks"

[13:39] herman Bergson: Have you heard about that?

[13:39] Debbie DJ: The only way I can see is to make all information open. Especially scientific information.

[13:39] Debbie DJ: no? what are the offshore leaks?

[13:40] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Wasn't that BP -

[13:40] herman Bergson: Someone ..a trust qqfund employee , has leaked 280Gb data about how the rich evade taxes and make their wealth invisible...

[13:41] Debbie DJ: Well, good!

[13:41] herman Bergson: Among them ministers of finance..politicians etc.

[13:41] Dain Shan: Ok herman .. Oceane and i call it a day now ㋡ It was great as always.. very interesting !

[13:41] Dain Shan: Thank you

[13:41] Oceane: good bye everyone ,nice talk :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

[13:41] Debbie DJ: I imagine that with the cloud it will become harder to hide things... and easier to find out

[13:42] Debbie DJ: Bye Oceane.

[13:42] Karsten Runningbear: bye

[13:42] herman Bergson: That cloud thing I really don't understand.....

[13:42] Debbie DJ: Technically? or philosophically?

[13:43] herman Bergson: storing your private data on servers you have no control of

z[13:43] herman Bergson: Nobody knows who has access to these datacenters....to these servers

[13:43] Debbie DJ: It has happened. Get used to it.

[13:43] herman Bergson: and don't tell me...nobody ..because of privacy laws....:-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes and I still don't know why it happened

[13:44] Debbie DJ: The thing is that there is a huge swath of data following you - gps, cell phone, all your works and publications....

[13:44] herman Bergson: One keystroke and a malicious government can grab all data centers....

[13:45] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:45] Debbie DJ: And as long as you use good encryption systems, you should be ok....

[13:45] Debbie DJ: and do backups of your own stuff.

[13:45] herman Bergson: And you believe that?!

[13:45] Debbie DJ: not really. its a little mantra I say to make it all right.

[13:45] herman Bergson: nice...^_^

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Its hard to resist the group pressure on this one...

[13:46] Karsten Runningbear: in the 80s we though, all governments collect our data, they couldn't do like google or Facebook do, i am very afraid about this

[13:46] herman Bergson: Same story again ..yes

[13:46] Karsten Runningbear: no data is secured

[13:46] Karsten Runningbear: if you want you get it

[13:47] herman Bergson: Type your name in Google search Karsten.....

[13:47] Debbie DJ: I must say that the positive spin offs are great. like knowing where you are, and getting mail on the move....

[13:47] herman Bergson: You might be surprised what will surface about you.....

[13:47] Karsten Runningbear: i never got a facebook account, but i often get email, people inviding me to facebook

[13:47] Karsten Runningbear: and i know this people

[13:47] herman Bergson: yes and that I find scaring.....

[13:48] Karsten Runningbear: i asked them, the didn't invide me

[13:48] herman Bergson: anonymous machines dig through data....

[13:48] Karsten Runningbear: facebook does it

[13:48] Debbie DJ: Facebook is a whole new pressure group too....

[13:48] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:48] herman Bergson: for then I get a list.....this one and that one seems to know you....etc.

[13:49] Debbie DJ: And bullying is a problem for teenagers. I imagine for adults too....

[13:49] herman Bergson: do you want to add as friend....

[13:49] herman Bergson: I thought I was smart.....

[13:49] herman Bergson: lol

[13:49] Karsten Runningbear: if you drive to fast, police searches google for a photo of you in germany

[13:49] herman Bergson: I deleted my Facebook account.....the one on my RL identity....

[13:50] Debbie DJ: What I find really fascinating is how quickly the kids have adopted typing on a tiny keyboard....

[13:50] herman Bergson: Kids are so easy going with all this

[13:50] Debbie DJ: and how it is always in use.... 24/7 almost

[13:50] herman Bergson: But I made a new Facebook account....

[13:50] herman Bergson: for herman Bergson.....

[13:50] Debbie DJ: Oh cool....

[13:50] Karsten Runningbear: *g*

[13:51] Debbie DJ: and what does google search show?

[13:51] herman Bergson: I thought...nobody knows me, but I can look into others pages yet...

[13:51] herman Bergson: How stupid I was....

[13:51] Karsten Runningbear: i think facebook knows

[13:51] herman Bergson: for I used my gmail account for it....

[13:52] Debbie DJ: ha ha - and it tied everything together. One sign in .....

[13:52] herman Bergson: so I got all shit again of people who I should know

[13:52] Karsten Runningbear: you can make a new email, if you use your computer at home they know you

[13:52] Karsten Runningbear: they know where you are live

[13:52] herman Bergson: that is the point Karten....we are prisoners of our IP address

[13:52] Karsten Runningbear: they know every byte on your computer

[13:52] Debbie DJ: Well for the paranoid, you can use TOR service and Linux...

[13:53] herman Bergson: I guess SL griefers do :-))

[13:53] Karsten Runningbear: they know the MAC address of your router

466: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 31

The picture I draw of human nature is a rather positive one. As a confirmation of that I introduced you to the findings of the primatologist Frans de Waal  in my previous lecture.

Yet, there are people, who claim that this all sounds very nice, but that in fact we are vicious animals going for their own interests only, if you remove that thin varnish which we call morality.

They have arguments. On July 13, 1942 the 500 men of the Reserve Police battalion 101 from Hamburg were transported to a village named Jozefow in Eastern Poland..

Lots of middle aged family men under command of Major Wilhelm Trapp, a 53 year old policeman himself. 

To make it short: their assignment was to murder all Jews of the village and keep only alive men who were useful in labor camps.

Trapp then made an extraordinary offer to his battalion: if any of the older men among them did not feel up to the task that lay before him, he could step out. Trapp paused, and after some moments, one man stepped forward. 

The captain of 3rd company, enraged that one of his men had broken ranks, began to berate the man. The major told the captain to hold his tongue. 

Then ten or twelve other men stepped forward as well. They turned in their rifles and were told to await a further assignment from the major. 

Twelve out of 500. The others were able to shoot 1,500 Jewish men, women and children within a day even when they had the option to opt out.

Does this confirm the "VARNISH" theory  about human nature. Am I completely wrong then? I don't think so.

One thing to consider is: what would have happened if Major Trapp had asked the opposite: "Those who are wiling to shoot Jews, step forward please." 

I won't elaborate in this idea further, but what we observe is that our instinct behavior is mainly focused on preventing harm and pain and certainly not on killing one another.

What has happened? Were ALL 488 remaining policemen fanatic nazis and anti-Semites then? Highly improbable. But then why didn't they stepped out?

Military obedience can't be the explanation either, because one was allowed to step out without further consequences.

It may be horrible to say, but the pressure of conformity  can be more  crucial in some situations

than any other social instinct and any fundamental moral value.

Moral standards and criteria, so we learn from this example, are flexible. This example shows that in moments of moral decisions we sometimes neither follow our moral principles nor our well understood personal interests.

We follow a social reflex. These policemen subordinated to the pressure to conform at the expense of a very high price. 

Legitimacy through conformity here is the maxim on which we base our moral behavior in everyday situations. What all do, can not be entirely wrong.

Just puberty, the age in which we free ourselves from the reference group of our family, is the phase of our strongest conformity  behavior  to our friends

Even children usually learn quickly that they succeed, if they behave reasonably compliant to the group.

Who steps out of line, gets quickly in trouble. So it is no wonder that we train ourselves to adjust our behavior according to the rules of our reference groups.

Our moral behavior is always marked by the reference group, in which we find ourselves, voluntarily or involuntarily.

Just as important as our inner beliefs is being accepted by our reference group. We anticipate the views of others on ourselves and modify our decisions and our actions accordingly.

Morally considered, this behavior can help us in the good sense to behave compliant  to the group.

Likewise it is also easily possible that we allow ourselves to be carried away by group behavior to actions that are inconsistent with our internal beliefs actually.

But how is that possible? Is our self-image not just tied to fairly constant values ​​of  what we keep as our principle of right, good and true? How do we manage to outwit ourselves?

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: These last questions are for the next lecture...

[13:23] herman Bergson: thank you

[13:23] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:23] Merlin: Yes, very interesting talk today Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: I can give you an example of group behavior....

[13:24] herman Bergson: but first...your question Merlin

[13:24] Gemma Allen: wonders if in the case of the soldiers they thought they might be shot if did not comply with the orders

[13:24] Debbie DJ: I've got to break free... this group behaviour is so restrictive.....

[13:24] Merlin: Well I wondered if those soldiers knew what they were opting out of

[13:24] herman Bergson: no no Gemma,,,stepping forward was without consequences...!

[13:24] Gemma Allen: who could trust the leaders with orders like that

[13:24] Merlin: Did they know the task ahead of them?

[13:24] Debbie DJ: shopping, gizmos, and cars...

[13:25] Debbie DJ: is it a coincidence that tv adds make you want to conform, and have ONE?

[13:25] herman Bergson: There is no other example of WWII events where soldiers were allowed to step out...

[13:26] herman Bergson: This case has been thoroughly investigated....

[13:26] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:26] herman Bergson: Trapp was convicted by the Polish immediately after the war

[13:26] Gemma Allen: i still think half that army must have been mezmerized for all the things they did

[13:26] Gemma Allen: without conscience

[13:27] Gemma Allen: amazing stuff

[13:27] herman Bergson: No Gemma that is not necessarily true...

[13:27] Gemma Allen: why

[13:27] herman Bergson: Let me give you a recent example....

[13:28] herman Bergson: a 16 year old girl posted in invitation to her birthday party on Facebook...

[13:28] herman Bergson: because of some mistake it was a public invitation...not only to her friends

[13:28] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:28] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:28] Gemma Allen: yes

[13:28] Merlin: lol

[13:28] Gemma Allen: heard of that

[13:28] Gemma Allen: how many came??

[13:28] herman Bergson: in no time it was all over the net...on twitter and Facebook....

[13:28] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:29] herman Bergson: GO TO THE TOWN HAREN on that and that date...

[13:29] Gemma Allen: lots of guests

[13:29] herman Bergson: happened a few months ago here in the Netherlands...

[13:29] herman Bergson: the result....

[13:29] herman Bergson: a huge crowd of young people....

[13:29] herman Bergson: inadequate response of the authorities...

[13:30] herman Bergson: immense devastation of shops, windows..plundering....

[13:30] herman Bergson: and then the boys that were arrested....

[13:30] herman Bergson: At first in the press they said..yes hooligans came for the violence...

[13:30] herman Bergson: but nothing of that....

[13:31] herman Bergson: the arrested boys were just ordinary boys....average types...deeply ashamed of how they had behaved....

[13:31] herman Bergson: they had shifted their moral standards so easily being in this group

[13:32] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:32] Gemma Allen: mob mentality

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Was there a leader in the group, identified?

[13:32] herman Bergson: It was a disaster....traumatic for the people in that town

[13:32] herman Bergson: no Debbie....

[13:32] herman Bergson: no leader at all...

[13:32] herman Bergson: just beer

[13:32] Debbie DJ: so I wonder what triggered that random course of behaviour?

[13:32] louna: groups don't behave like individual people.

[13:33] Debbie DJ: beer - aaaaah

[13:33] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: shaming is part of the paradoxical injunction, herman.

[13:33] Debbie DJ: the weak spot in our group values.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes,,,

[13:33] herman Bergson: individually we are moral people....

[13:33] herman Bergson: but in a group....there is the pressure of conformism it seems

[13:33] Gemma Allen: they were probably been drinking on the way and saw one person throw a rock

[13:33] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: in the soldier groups they were told that useless jew were killed, so the soldier who don't do the mission to kill, are than putting themselves as useless soldier

[13:34] Gemma Allen: and so it began

[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Gemma ...that simple....

[13:34] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: and that the good worker, are kept, so the good soldier, would be kept

[13:34] Gemma Allen: it does happen often

[13:34] Gemma Allen: large scale and small scale

[13:34] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: its a shaming message, but a paradox how can a soldier find himself good, if he do the killing

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Alaya....

[13:35] Dain Shan: Sorry that i interrupt here.. But our time in up. The diskussion was very ineterstng. Thank to all of you ㋡

[13:35] Oceane: thank you for a nice lecture.. herman, great discussion , bye every one :)

[13:35] herman Bergson: our evolution has not yet get that far that we can transcend such primitive resonses to situations

[13:35] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:35] Debbie DJ: bye...

[13:35] Gemma Allen: come again

[13:35] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: so by not wanting to be the useless he step in, but by doing so he also do against his consciousness

[13:35] louna: bye Oceane :)

[13:35] louna: bye Sir Dain

[13:36] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: so he has an inner conflict and he project unto the jew, all his impotence, as something problematic to get rid of

[13:36] Debbie DJ: OMG louna, there you are ;)

[13:36] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:36] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:36] Gemma Allen: you did not see her

[13:36] louna: raises arms and moves them furiously in the air

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie she didn't know the japanese seats are here in front of me

[[13:36] Gemma Allen: can't see them herman

[13:37] Gemma Allen: i cant

[13:37] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:37] Debbie DJ: on the floor -

[13:37] Gemma Allen: nope

[13:37] Gemma Allen: not to my viewer

[13:37] herman Bergson: You probably don't speak Japanese Gemma :-)

[13:37] Gemma Allen: not the point they are not visible

[13:38] louna: happy to see how much my way to sit is interesting people

[13:38] herman Bergson: ok...I confess..I was joking:-)

[13:38] Gemma Allen: WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:38] Gemma Allen: tsk

[13:38] Debbie DJ: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*

[13:38] louna: lol

[13:38] herman Bergson: Guess it is time to thank you all for your participation

[13:39] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:39] herman Bergson: Class dismissed but the fun goes on :-)

[13:39] Debbie DJ: I loike sitting on the floor too. I was just conforming to hermans expectations to use his new chairs ;)

[13:39] louna: group comformity ?

[13:39] Debbie DJ: Its a group thing

[13:39] herman Bergson: Debbie..plzzzzzzz

[13:39] Debbie DJ: yaeh :)

[13:39] louna: i see that, i use to be more individual and claim who i am without any shame

[13:39] herman Bergson: I put so much effort in building new seats here :-))

[13:40] Merlin: lol

[13:40] Gemma Allen: very nice

[13:40] Gemma Allen: can you rezz more if they are needed??

[13:40] louna: touches the sit .... i like the color but i'm alergic to leather

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Liona...go fot it!

[13:40] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: they are very interesting , i remarked them i wanted to tell you

[13:40] herman Bergson: Isn't leather....yuk...I dont like that myself

265: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 30

When I was a 22 year old philosophy student at the university I kept notebooks to write down all my brilliant philosophical ideas.

When I specialized in Analytical Philosophy in the second half of my study, I had to discover that all my "brilliant" thought had already been thought!

And that 20 to 50 years before I even was born. Was this my big disappointment? No. It was my discovery that I fit into a philosophical tradition. One which now happens to dominate scientific thought.

Now 40 years later it happens again. It is not that I now think, that I have brilliant thoughts, but in the course of this project on human nature I discover, that I am not alone in the scientific and philosophical society with my ideas. On the contrary.

-quote-

"For those who believe that morality comes straight from God the creator, acceptance of evolution would open a moral abyss. 

Listen to the Reverend AI Sharpton debating the late atheist firebrand Christopher Hitchens: "If there is no order to the universe, 

and therefore some being, some force that ordered it, then who determines what is right or wrong? 

There is nothing immoral if there's nothing in charge., Similarly, I have heard people echo Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov, exclaiming, "If there is no God, I am free to rape my neighbor!,

Perhaps it's just me, but I am wary of any persons whose belief system is the only thing standing between them and repulsive behavior. 

Why not assume that our humanity, including the self-control needed for a livable society, is built into us? 

Does anyone truly believe that our ancestors lacked social norms before they had religion? Did they never assist others in need, or complain about an unfair deal? 

Humans must have worried about the functioning of their communities well before current religions arose, which occurred only a couple of millennia ago. Biologists are unimpressed by that kind of timescale."

-end quote-

Apes are not machines, they have the same emotions as humans like us have and act according to ethical principles. 

That is the central message of the book, "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates" by Frans de Waal (Mar 25, 2013) and my quote was from page 2 of this book.

Who is looking for the origin of morality ends up with an animal, with the monkey. With that view, based on his personal, unique experience with chimpanzees and bonobos, De Waal goes into battle against multiple opponents. 

Firstly against ethicists who think that ethics is a matter of rational thought, and thus uniquely human, which is a misconception, as I have  pointed out already several times.

Second, against the followers of Richard Dawkins, who shout that our behavior is determined solely by our genes, 

and that animals and human beings essentially are cynical egoists, who only help each other if they (genetically) benefit from it.

Nonsense, says De Waal, a dutch primatologist, who lives and works in the United States. But he fights in particular  against believers who think that all morality comes from above, 

and that a godless society is doomed to perish by crime and lust. With respect  to his opponent the believer, De Waal keeps his gunpowder dry for a long time.

He emphasizes the value of belief, and attacks hard on fierce neo-atheists like Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, 

in the final chapter the believers are firmly taught a lesson, however. Who sees religion as the origin of morality "is completely wrong." 

And: "The big challenge is a step forward, beyond religion, and especially beyond the morality from above. The origin of morality is apparent in the behavior of other animals, "says De Waal.

Thence I come to the conclusion, that some 40 years later I may discover again to be a part of a philosophical and scientific interpretation of our  our world and that a positive interpretation of human natur is justified.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks....the floor is yours :-))

[13:21] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:22] herman Bergson: Could be I told you the obvious :-)

[13:22] Merlin: I really think you have got Richard Dawkins wrong Herman

[13:22] herman Bergson: That may be the case merlin...sure

[13:23] Merlin: He does not say we are entirely determined by our genes

[13:23] Dain Shan: Well its kinda obvious, I don't think in an Atheist family is no Morality at all.

[13:23] Merlin: He has a very balanced and deep understanding

[13:24] herman Bergson: Indeed Dain.....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: well i don't know if i believe in a god but i know ow u should behave anyway

[13:24] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...maybe Dawkins deserved a more detailed presentation here then

[13:24] MerlinMerlin smiles

[13:24] herman Bergson: to clarify what he meant with his selfish gene

[13:24] Oceane: sometimes it helps to believe in a god - if nobody´s around to give you any solace..

[13:25] herman Bergson: True ...there is a general opinion about him, as you hear from de Waal here too....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Oceane.....

[13:25] Oceane smiles and listens

[13:25] herman Bergson: It is nonsense to fight beliefs....

[13:26] herman Bergson: We are a vessel full of beliefs.....

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: I have to go..sorry...have a goodnight

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: cu Beertje

[13:26] herman Bergson: We believe that the sun will rise again tomorrow and that we'll wake

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: bye

[13:27] herman Bergson: We believe that coincidences are not coincidences...

[13:27] herman Bergson: we have lots of beliefs...

[13:27] herman Bergson: the only problem is what you claim with your belief..

[13:28] herman Bergson: if you claim the monopoly on morality, you are on the wrong track

[13:28] herman Bergson: As Dain said....it is ridiculous to assume that a family of atheists has no morality :-)

[13:29] Oceane: wonder what will happen if morality is a concept that can be negotiated... somehow or are all values immovable?

[13:29] herman Bergson: the moral values are always related to a social context

[13:30] Dain Shan: Also .. the example about Animals impress me here. In a pack .. wolves for example, they have their own Moral. But they have no god for sure.. Gods are a Human thing .. we invented that

[13:30] herman Bergson: so there cant be an absolute Good

[13:30] herman Bergson: I agree Dain....

[13:30] Karsten Runningbear: who knows that, maybe animals got a god?

[13:31] Merlin: Yes the question of 'Absolute Good' has been questionable to me for some years

[13:31] herman Bergson: That is a questionable idea Karsten.....

[13:31] Dain Shan: That would mean that they have a higher understanding of the world. Something they dont have

[13:31] herman Bergson: For the idea of a god needs a lot of abstract thinking to get to it...

[13:31] Oceane: do you mean absolute as in monotheistic, Merlin?

[13:31] Karsten Runningbear: could be a kind of master plan, only humans call it god

[13:31] Merlin: No I was not referring to god

[13:31] herman Bergson: no animal has so far shown that quality except the human being

[13:32] Oceane: ah okay

[13:32] herman Bergson: the idea of a master plan is also just a mental construct....

[13:32] Dain Shan: Hmm a master plan. don't we run off into an argument about religion now ^^

[13:33] Merlin: hehe

[13:33] Karsten Runningbear: ^^

[13:33] herman Bergson: No on religion I am quite clear....

[13:33] Merlin: Well.. 1 we go off topic a lot

[13:33] Merlin: and 2 Religion is involved in this IMO

[13:33] herman Bergson: morality existed before religion among social beings.....as de Waal also said

[13:33] herman Bergson: We invented religion....

[13:34] herman Bergson: it has a social function....

[13:34] Merlin: Man the Creator!

[13:34] herman Bergson: for instance....

[13:34] Merlin: We made god, not the other way round

[13:34] Merlin: We made god in OUR image

[13:34] herman Bergson: you feel bound to your primary family....

[13:34] herman Bergson: not to people you don't know....

[13:34] Merlin: An old man in the sky with a beard. YES

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahahah yes thats a classic image of god

[13:34] herman Bergson: so religion my be the binding force in a wider social circle...

[13:35] Merlin: It says in the bible that god resembles us

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: sitting on a cloud

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] Merlin: lol yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: ye s..the old man image....

[13:35] Merlin: BUT they say WE are in the image of GOD

[13:35] Merlin: in fact, it is the other way round

[13:35] herman Bergson: Why not an old woman...

[13:36] Karsten Runningbear: old men should be wise men

[13:36] herman Bergson: It has to be the other way around Merlin :-)

[13:36] Merlin: Well a perfect god should not have gender but HE is male in the Bible

[13:36] Merlin: Yes Herman

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes...a questionable issue...but irrelevant here

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:37] Merlin: well there could be translation issues but the bible in English clearly uses He as the pronoun for God

[13:37] herman Bergson: what we discuss here in this project is the question "what is human nature" and thence "Where does morality com from or are we just blunt egoists?"

[13:38] herman Bergson: and in that respect religion is a marginal aspect in the discussion to me

[13:38] Merlin: Im not sure how the topic came up

[13:38] Merlin: Im pretty sure it wasn't me

[13:39] Dain Shan: Somehow we drifted into it

[13:39] herman Bergson: And the book I bring to your attention....published recently gives good arguments for a specific interpretation of human nature

[13:39] Dain Shan: I think if the talk comes to God .. there will be religion involved

[13:39] Karsten Runningbear: living beings got 2 aims: survive and reproduce

[13:39] Merlin: Yes Karsten

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Dain....and it is a sensitive issue.....

[13:39] Karsten Runningbear: there is no room for god

[13:40] Merlin: You only need look at animals ... I think you said that

[13:40] herman Bergson: not even a seat Karsten :-))

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: I believe in science

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: when science tells me there is a god i believe it

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cause i have never seen or experienced anything godlike ever

[13:40] Oceane: anytime Bejita?

[13:40] herman Bergson: To quote de Waal....

[13:40] Karsten Runningbear: science told people earth is a plate some years ago

[13:41] herman Bergson: Whether there exists a god or not is irrelevant for morality.....that is born into our nature

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes but then they had never seen it from space, now we know its round cause we have actually seen that that is the fact

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and other planets as well

[13:41] herman Bergson: No Karsten..the lack of knowledge told people that the earth was flat....

[13:42] herman Bergson: With the increase of astronomical observations this idea became more and more implauseble

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Karsten Runningbear: i agree, but people believed the wrong theory a long time

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: when u see the earth from a satelite or space in general u don't see a disc, u see a sphere

[13:43] herman Bergson: To correctly interpret the observations they had to assume that the earth had to be round...

[13:43] Merlin: I notice the gender balance here has taken a dive

[13:43] Merlin: lol

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: so u see fact and then u can 100 % believe it

[13:43] Merlin: (only joking)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:43] herman Bergson: and that assumption explained immediately a lot of other observations

[13:44] herman Bergson: THAT is a correct observation,Merlin :-))

[13:44] Merlin: hehehe

[13:44] herman Bergson: Should I be worried about that ? ^_^

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well...are there any questions left torturing your soul?

[13:46] Merlin: Is this course getting near the end?

[13:46] herman Bergson experiences a solemn silence

[13:46] Oceane: chuckles

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes I would say so Merlin....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Since there are no questions left....

[13:47] Merlin: There is another meeting at this time on Tuesdays and I would like to see this one through to the end

[13:47] herman Bergson: I see...

[13:48] herman Bergson: But I think maybe one or two lectures....and then the new project on Eastern Philosophy

[13:48] Dain Shan: Definetely gave me food for thought

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Oceane: great class herman :)

[13:48] Merlin: aaah Eastern Philosophy huh?

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes:)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: that will be interesting

[13:48] herman Bergson: Thank you Oceane

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[[13:48] Merlin: Well no doubt I would still follow it on the web site if I dont come every time

[13:48] Karsten Runningbear: great, thank you herman

[13:48] Oceane: you are welcome herman :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: I gonna try to make it a kind of comparative philosophy....

[13:49] herman Bergson: Looking with our Western eyes at Asian thought.....

[13:49] Merlin: Well I am interested in Confucianism

[13:49] Dain Shan: Now that's an interesting topic ^^

[13:49] Merlin: and Taoism

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:50] Oceane: :)

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: looks forward to this

[13:50] herman Bergson: Confucius is indeed interesting....

[13:50] Merlin: Its a pity that it all happens at this time. Actually as Oceane will know there is yet another meeting at this time too

[13:50] Merlin: thats Three

[13:51] Oceane: yes I know Merlin- but one has to make up his or her mind, Merlin :)

[13:51] herman Bergson grins

[13:51] herman Bergson: I dont mind..I am in for the competition ^_^

[13:52] Merlin: yes. well I prefer this to the DS Academy at present but I have another one on supernatural things to interest me too

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: supernatural stuff is cool as well

[13:52] herman Bergson: no primate ever needed supernatural things for his evolution :-)

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: lot of stuff in this category that is really nice

[13:52] Merlin: yes, all these things are related

[13:53] Merlin: Hmm ... Except one Herman?

[13:53] Merlin: Man

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes..maybe man has more fears than other primates

[13:54] herman Bergson: for instance the fear of death...

[13:54] herman Bergson: We KNOW that we are going to die....

[13:54] Merlin: Yes, well as I have said I find it very informative to consider other animals

[13:54] Merlin: The biologists seem to have the best understanding of philosophy imo

[13:54] herman Bergson: there is a vague indication that chimpanzees have some understanding of death....

[13:55] Oceane: well sometimes we push this thought aside, herman, and pretend that we don´t see...

[13:55] herman Bergson: in the sense that the dead one will never return again

[13:55] Merlin: hmm yes

[13:56] herman Bergson: as I said Oceane....we have more fears than the other primates

[13:56] OceaneOceane nods

[13:56] Merlin: I could belive that too

[13:56] herman Bergson: One cause is our knowledge of time...

[13:56] Merlin: Some animals can be amazingly courageous

[13:57] Merlin: but perhaps they are just ignorant of the dangers?

[13:57] Dain Shan: The line between know courage and unknown courage is very very thin

[13:57] herman Bergson: Could be merlin...

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:57] Karsten Runningbear: most of our fear is acquired

[13:58] herman Bergson: Yes Karsten....

[13:58] herman Bergson: Some even claim that our fear of snakes and spiders go back to our prehistoric anscestors

[13:59] Karsten Runningbear: hmm, we should have fear of cats ^^

[13:59] Karsten Runningbear: she have eaten us

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hahaha why ? they are so cute ㋡

[13:59] Oceane: lol

[13:59] Merlin: we fear things that are no danger to us, and yet we do not fear the things which are a danger

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: unless its a lion u mean

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:00] Dain Shan: tell that a nearly 200 kg heavy hungry tiger ^^

[14:00] Merlin: Oh well. Its time for me to go home

[14:00] Dain Shan: Have a good one Merlin

[14:00] Oceane: good night Merlin

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu Merlin

[14:00] Merlin: Goood night everyone

[14:00] herman Bergson: Now we are off to the zoo it is a good moment to conclude this session :-)

[14:00] Karsten Runningbear: bye merlin

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[14:01] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: well time for an event for me

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)