469: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 34

The more I immerse myself in the subject of our project, the more questions come to me about the relation between all these insights and the traditional philosophical ethics.

While philosophers like Kant (1724 - 1804) try formulate to the basics of ethics in his Categorical Imperative, the social psychologists try to show us that ethics is not the product of our rationality.

Albert Bandura (born December 4, 1925, in Mundare, Alberta, Canada) is a psychologist who is the David Starr Jordan Professor Emeritus of Social Science in Psychology at Stanford University.

His idea was, that we do not only learn to behave because we are rewarded or punished for our behavior, but also by observing the behavior of others. He called it social cognition.

Social cognitive theory, used in psychology, education, and communication, posits that  people do not learn new behaviors solely by trying them and either succeeding or failing, but rather, the survival of humanity is dependent upon the replication of the actions of others. 

Depending on whether people are rewarded or punished for their behavior and the outcome of the behavior, that behavior may be modeled. Further, media provide models for a vast array of people in many different environmental settings.

For the most part, social cognitive theory remains the same for various cultures. Since the concepts of moral behavior did not vary much between cultures (as crimes like murder, theft, and unwarranted violence are illegal in virtually every society), there is not much room for people to have different views on what is morally right or wrong. 

The main reason that social cognitive theory applies to all nations is because it does not say what is moral and immoral; it simply states that we can acknowledge these two concepts. 

Our actions in real-life scenarios will be based on whether or not we believe the action to be moral and whether or not the reward for violating our morals is significant enough, and nothing else.

The technique we use for that is not applying the Kantian Categorical Imperative, but by using the "Categorical Comparative", which is a real part of human nature.

This term is self-invented, but does it mean? It means that we want to feel good. We want to say to ourselves, "I am a good person and not an asshole."

Thence we say to ourselves that we act morally right (most of the time). We don't do that by testing our behavior with the Categorical Imperative, but by comparing our behavior with that of others.

The most horrible example is that of the soldier who killed only children, while his comrades killed the mothers. And his reasoning was something like "I killed only these poor orphans, but look at them who killed the mothers!"

Or a more familiar example. A child got a D for his test and says to his parents…."Yes a D, but most of the class got E-s and F-s", which makes a D almost a intellectual victory.

What we see here is that "the comrades" and "the rest of the class" become the standard to decide whether something is right or wrong.

We define ourselves by comparing ourselves with others. When we can look down on them this is balm for our Ego. Looking up to others can be both, motivating and demotivating.

Two groups of girls were shown photos of a model. One group was told that the model happened to have the same birthday as them. Afterwards they were asked to describe their own  appearance.

The first group was much more negative about their appearance than the second group. The explanation was, that it was already enough to have just something in common with the other to say "she is beautiful, but I am too more or less" instead of"I am not so beautiful as that model", which can make the other a motivating example.

In moral situations we are easily inclined to emphasize, how bad the others are. When your brother says to you that he is more ethical than you are, so you should look up to him, I don't think you will do that without discussion.

Yet the philosophical question remains, whether morals show constant shifting baselines, or can there be universal rock solid moral standards.

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:25] herman Bergson: My apologies I messed up a little

[13:25] Gemma Allen: shifting baselines seems interesting ..

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:25] Gemma Allen: seems to fit sometimes

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: But the main thought is that we don't learn moral behavior because of rational moral principles but by comparing behavior and imitation in fact

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: for the term of the Categorical Comparative you should get the nobel prize

[13:27] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:27] herman Bergson: When I look in the mirror I don't compare my face with that of 20 years ago....dis so 20 years ago :-)

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hahahahah

[13:27] herman Bergson: Now I compare it only with the image of yesterday

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: (Throws to Herman a Nobel prize)

[13:27] herman Bergson: so I shift the baseline

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: We see now a number of ways how we define our selves morally...

[13:28] herman Bergson: conformity to the group

[13:28] herman Bergson: shifting baselines

[13:28] herman Bergson: comparing behavior and boosting our by looking down on others

[13:28] Gemma Allen: teen years are such a problem this way

[13:29] Gemma Allen: everyone wants to be like their peers

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: for intelligent people there is a big variety to define themselves a moral persons

[13:29] herman Bergson: there you see the adoration of idols

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy.....and what you may conclude...it is not a constant....

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: true

[13:30] herman Bergson: just look at sexual behavior....

[13:30] herman Bergson: fi the ones you look up to behave in a certain way....why shouldn't you.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: tho years ago you might have detested it

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: same with cloth of famous brands

[13:31] herman Bergson: or clothing...

[13:31] herman Bergson: just recall what happened when the mini skirt arrived on the scene...

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, just for the brand u pay 3 times as much if not more even if the fabric is same quality in both cases

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: thats a bit crazy

[13:32] Gemma Allen: well it is back

[13:32] herman Bergson: and look around now.....

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: yes Bejiita..but youngsters think they must have it

[13:32] herman Bergson: what is right and wrong in clothing?

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:32] Gemma Allen: of course

[13:32] herman Bergson: people look at each other....

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: they feel good when they wear those cloths

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: also lot of group pressure and such

[13:33] herman Bergson: if they see that other get away with it....well..then it must be right

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and what is in and what is out

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: trends

[13:33] herman Bergson: I am beginning to think that we have two levels of ethics....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: indeed but that other person might just be lucky he did get away for that time and the other will not be when he tries himself

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: a bit dangerous

[13:34] herman Bergson: one of our every day use....where baselines shift, where we compare.....where standards change all the time....

[13:34] herman Bergson: and one more basic......

[13:35] herman Bergson: where there are solid values...

[13:35] herman Bergson: like not murdering or stealing or using violence...

[13:35] herman Bergson: but changing the length of your skirt has little to do with such standards...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: that i think should be obvious to all that u dont do things like that but apparently thats not how it is

[13:36] herman Bergson: so that issue can be liquid....

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is the point Bejiita...

[13:36] herman Bergson: take murder for instance....

[13:36] herman Bergson: the word is already judgmental....

[13:37] herman Bergson: so back to killing another human being.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: then the question becomes fundamental....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: just now in the news i saw lot of theft cases and a gang that goes around asking for help by laying a paper with something on it over your mobile or wallet and ask if they can help them with this

[13:37] herman Bergson: like the discussion on the death penalty...

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: then the phone and wallet is gone and they leave

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: really nasty

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and was cases all over my city where that had happened

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: also how they use al sorts of viruses to try to empty peoples bank accounts

[13:39] herman Bergson: I think ..the question about having the right to take the life of another is more fundamental than taking his cellphone :-)

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: also really terrible and gets worse and worse

[13:39] herman Bergson: Tho I am not sure anymore these days about that :-))

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: yes herman and its always the question who can decide about death and life

[13:39] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Even when you have taken a life yourself by murdering someone...

[13:40] herman Bergson: is it completely arbitrary what right we have to our life or is it more than that

[13:41] Gemma Allen: well self preservation would be one right

[13:41] Gemma Allen: tho i would still find it hard or impossible to do

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes and you do not need to KILL someone to preserve yourself

[13:42] Gemma Allen: oh sometimes one does

[13:42] .: Beertje :.: brb

[13:42] Gemma Allen: if that person is threatening you with murder

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod

[13:42] Gemma Allen: rod

[13:42] herman Bergson: In situations of war it is used as an argument indeed Gemma...yes

[13:43] Rodney Handrick: Hi Lizzy

[13:43] Gemma Allen: of abuse

[13:43] Gemma Allen: or *

[13:43] Rodney Handrick: Hi Gemma

[13:44] herman Bergson: Complicated questions.....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:44] herman Bergson: Fortunately we don't need to answer them...

[13:44] Gemma Allen: as usual

[13:44] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:44] herman Bergson: the meaning of this project is that you look for your own answers afterwards ^_^

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: we have to leave some problems to be solved by our followers

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well...if you ran out of questions or remarks...?

[13:45] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:45] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your participation again ^_^

[[13:46] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:46] Gemma Allen: see you next week

[13:46] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaaa cu ㋡

[13:46] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: TC Gemma

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: great as usual ㋡

[13:46] herman Bergson: thank you Bejiita

[13:48] herman Bergson: Hi Rodney :-)

[13:48] Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: good night everybody

[13:48] herman Bergson: Attending the end of class for years now ^_^

[13:48] Rodney Handrick: Goodnight Lizzy

[13:49] herman Bergson: I am sorry I still can't match with your time schedule Rodney ^_^

468: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 33

Tho I assume in this project that the homo sapiens is a moral being by nature, yet it appears to be a morality with holes in it.

Although we all know what it means to be morally just, it seems that for some reason we have "invented" all kinds of tricks, to get around it.

The point, however, is that all these evasive actions are in general not at all deliberate attempts to get past morality.

As we saw, conformity to the group is a mechanism we easily can be victim of. It take a lot of insight and courage, to overcome it.

Shifting baselines is another actually cultural process, where we see how standards shift from generation to generation.

Let's look at another feature which makes it difficult for us to act morally right and according to our own moral standards.

Begging is "not done", but when everybody does so, it is ok. So once a year all kids may go from home to home and beg for candy and stuff like that. Saint Martin's Day in Europe, with Halloween in the US.

Now, in the 70s two smart psychologist played a trick with the begging children. Next to each front door stood a large basket with candies.

When the kids knocked at the door an adult would open and would point the children at the basket. They all were allowed to take one candy each. Then he closed the door again. You see it come…!

"Hey, man…you took three candies!…..Well then I may have three too!" and so on. But in some situations there was a large mirror behind the basket.

This meant that the one who wanted to take more than one candy could see himself in the mirror.  The result was that there often wasn't a first one who took more than one candy.

Of course this stealing of candy is a matter of conformity to the group. But the mirror often prevented that there was a first one, who took more than one candy.

When forced to look at yourself while performing some action, seems to stimulate to act more morally, than when one doesn't have to think too much about himself.

So, we do not only hide what we are doing for the piercing eyes of others, but pretty much for ourselves as well.

The trick is that a lot of our decisions and actions are not subjected to self conscious considerations and we don't relate them to our self-image.

Take for instance traffic offenders. Lovely subject for TV shows. When interviewed they are amazed. "Me, speeding?" Then seeing the proof, they go like "Oh well yes, I didn't know I drove that fast. Was a bit in a hurry." 

Wasn't there a speedometer in his car?

But taken as a fact, they endangered their own life and the lives of the many other traffic participants. They were, however, not aware of that. 

In this way we can hold ourselves for much better than we morally are. That experiment of those psychologists of course originated from what we all know:

that advise to look in the mirror first before we open our mouth. Haven't you never looked into the mirror at yourself for a while and then got that uncomfortable feeling?

Only few people who observe their own mirror image, do so in peace and serenity. And if so, then is our physical appearance more our focus then our moral integrity.

For when we think about ourselves, then probably it is more often about our appearance and social actions. And when we watch a home video of ourselves,

we are often more surprised about how we look like and how we do things - that strange voice and weird movements - then what we do.

Interesting to see, how we can hide ourselves for ourselves, if it is about the morality of our actions.

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:25] herman Bergson: You all feel guilty now? ^_^

[13:25] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:25] Framdor: morality is like old socks - there is a hole in the soul -

[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: ...LOL...

[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: is all true

[13:25] Beertje Beaumont: grins..

[13:25] herman Bergson: I look at it this way.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: As homo sapiens we have come this far.....

[13:26] Framdor: So we conform to the image of who we like to think we are?

[13:26] herman Bergson: We think we are the end of evolution....at least we tend to believe that....

[13:26] Framdor: because that is the image we think will be well liked?

[13:27] herman Bergson: We think often better of ourselves than we are it seems Debbie :-)

[13:27] herman Bergson: But now you see these flaws...

[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: ask your best friend to be honest when he/she describes you..and then don't be mad when you hear all of it...

[13:27] herman Bergson: conformity to the group, shifting baselines, lack of self attentiveness...

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: oh right

[13:27] Framdor: This is all about POSITIVE self image though...

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: are you kidding??

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: there goes a friendship

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: no..I did once...and it was an eyeopener Gemma'

[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: ;-)

[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: adn what did you do about it

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: just tried to be honest with myself

[13:29] Beertje Beaumont: honest

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: i think each of us could do that

[13:29] Louna Quan: smiles to Beertje

[13:29] herman Bergson: that is my point......

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: yep

[13:29] herman Bergson: in stead of thinking that we are the finished end product of evolution

[13:30] herman Bergson: we are still organisms which adapat to their environment...where the fitests survive...

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: Well that is another thing Dawkins says, That we are no higher evolved than any other animal

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: All have evolved for exactly the same amount of time

[13:30] Beertje Beaumont: the fitest is the one who can uhhmm zichzelf aanpassen aan de omgeving..sorry..my english

[13:30] Framdor: Our moral and ethical values are about feeling ok when we look in the mirror... conforming. Yet we conform to an image that is not really us - because we hide the parts we don't like, so we can feel good? Seems like we are missing the point?

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: And there is no "Goal" to evolution

[13:30] herman Bergson: depends on what you mean by 'higher' Merlin

[13:30] herman Bergson: No there is no goal to evolution....

[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true

[13:31] Beertje Beaumont: Herman can you translate please?

[13:31] Louna Quan: yes Debbie

[13:31] herman Bergson: But we happen to be equipped with a brain, which is unique in tis abilities

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:32] herman Bergson: What should I translate Beertje ?

[13:32] herman Bergson: (Debbie, keep it short:-)

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: we have a much more evolved language while other animals only use sounds of various kinds

[13:32] Framdor: k

[13:32] Beertje Beaumont: [13:30] Beertje Beaumont: the fitest is the one who can uhhmm zichzelf aanpassen aan de omgeving..sorry..my english

[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: scroll back

[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:32] Merlin Saxondale: uhhmm zichzelf aanpassen aan de omgeving..sorry..my english

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and we are the only ones that makes machines and more advanced tools

[13:33] herman Bergson: That is correct Beertje...

[13:33] herman Bergson: If you look at history.....

[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: translate for us!!

[13:33] herman Bergson: in fact it is a process of adaptation.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: tho we had some horrible wars...and still have.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: in the long run, look who survives....

[13:34] Framdor: A wise friend once said we should not look at advantages in a new situation, but weigh up disadvantages first.

[13:34] Framdor: maybe too when we look at our self image ;)

[13:35] Merlin Saxondale: " adapt themselves to the environment ."

[13:35] herman Bergson: The optimist/pessimist approch Debbie?

[13:35] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Merlin:)

[13:35] Merlin Saxondale: :)

[13:35] Framdor: Sort of.

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] Framdor: We always look for the route of profit, despite all the costs, which we ignore.

[13:35] herman Bergson: I think we'll learn in the long run....

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is only now the case Debbie....

[13:36] Framdor: but now we are at our peak???

[13:36] herman Bergson: That whole idea of PROFIT is so seriously exposed and brought to the open in all its negative aspects these days

[13:37] herman Bergson: Some high finance man here said.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: there has to me a broad debate on finances and finacial markets....etc...

[13:37] Framdor: oh yeah? then why do we still make sports cars and overseas holidays?

[13:37] herman Bergson: and lots of people DO debate it....in politics in the media and so on..

[13:38] herman Bergson: and who it the big SILENT one in this debate....

[13:38] Framdor: not more than the hippies did.... your generation sir ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: The banks themselves...

[13:38] Beertje Beaumont: yes true Herman..I never hear them about it

[13:38] herman Bergson: Those profit hunters are scared...

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: folks just do not know how an alternative could look like - so they go on and on and on..

[13:39] Framdor: Silly us....

[13:39] herman Bergson: They know that the are shaved now....so they think...let's sit still :-)

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and lay low

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska....

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: they relay on us not finding an alternative

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: but some folks already start.

[13:40] Framdor: and lie to their own selves... about their ethics.

[13:40] herman Bergson: what is happening today....say since 1989....the fall of the Wall in Berling....

[13:40] Framdor: pretend to be green...

[13:40] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:40] Framdor: and recycle when others are watching -

[13:40] herman Bergson: Exactly Debbie.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: That lieing to themselves to justify actions can go far....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: but when no one looks flush all toxic waste out the sea

[13:40] herman Bergson: shockingly far....

[13:41] herman Bergson: Let me tell you a story...

[13:41] herman Bergson: Reserve Police Battalion 101 ....

[13:41] Beertje Beaumont: I think the economy as it is now is one great soap bubble..one day it will explode

[13:41] herman Bergson: After the war one of the arrested soldiers gave this testimony....

[13:41] herman Bergson: He and his comrade shot people....

[13:42] herman Bergson: His comrade shot the mothers...he only shot the children...

[13:42] herman Bergson: and to justify this in some way he had the thought that these children hadn't any chance anyway without their mother.

[13:42] Framdor: Damn.. So... what is going to fix this problem? we seem incapable due to self delusion, and over consumption

[13:43] herman Bergson: So far can a mind go to cheat itself....to stay stable

[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmmm

[13:43] herman Bergson: No no...Debbie....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Our moral behavior has already much improved since the Middle Ages....

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: i think so too

[13:44] herman Bergson: We do no longer burn women because they are witches...

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: not here anyway

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: i heard of such a burning in the past month

[13:44] herman Bergson: we don't accept torture anymore as a justified method

[13:44] Louna Quan: hehe Gemma

[13:44] Framdor: But we do operate drones that bomb civillians from the sky...

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:44] herman Bergson: Hold on!!!!

[13:44] Framdor: and we did carpet bomb iraq...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: some cultures like in saudi arabia stll treat women horrible these days like they have no valye

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: like they are just things and not humans

[13:45] herman Bergson: I talk about Western Culture where education plays a very important role

[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: Women Killed as ‘Witches,’ in Papua New Guinea, in 2013

[13:45] herman Bergson: Not all parts of this world are in the same stage of human development

[13:45] Framdor: Me too... the westerners make most of the guns and war machines.

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: the story is in the NY Times

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is because of the profits...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Louna Quan: oh really i didn't know about that Gemma

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: like here in sweden

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: ye

[13:46] Framdor: and if you look what excites us - its blood and gore in games and TV

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: i could put the link but not sure if you can get through

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: we are supposed to be natural yet we make and sell tons of heavy artillery to war zones all over

[13:46] herman Bergson: and there you get exactly those crooked arguments why you can make guns...

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/19/women-tortured-killed-as-witches-in-papua-new-guinea-in-2013/

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: cause to make money no matter how many paople gets killed by them

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like in the US the NRA does...

[13:46] Louna Quan: looking

[13:47] herman Bergson: Guns are no evil...

[13:47] Framdor: so - how have we advanced? we can and do kill more easily...lol

[13:47] herman Bergson: only guns in the hands of bad guys are evil

[13:47] Framdor: like the USA?

[13:47] Merlin Saxondale: I don't agree entirely with that about guns

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: indeed however a gun is a device made esp for killing others

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes National Rifle Association loonies

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: one guy here says the only way to defeat a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

[13:48] Merlin Saxondale: They are made for killing and for nothing else

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: thats is its purpose and we have made it

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: Wayne Lapierre

[13:48] Merlin Saxondale: Like Submarines too.. they are entirely for war

[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: passing out guns

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: and not to forget these damn nuclear armageddon weapons

[13:48] Framdor: while we don't burn witches, we do poison waterways, and oceans...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: that north korea bullies up with now

[13:49] Merlin Saxondale: Even Jeremy Clarkson condemned guns in a TV programme

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...but they are no option anymore...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: while he threatens to eradicate the planet

[13:49] herman Bergson: except in the hands of in individual fanatic

[13:49] Louna Quan: nods

[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: we do have civilized , so called m ways of burning witches instead

[13:49] Louna Quan: yes

[13:49] Merlin Saxondale: I think the electric chair is somewhat like burning at the stake

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: burn their reputations

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: maybee

[13:50] Framdor: This lecture is very depressing.... I now see that we have very flimsy morals and ethics... and wont stand up for tough principles.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bad comparison Merlin....

[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: it is hard to

[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: don't get too depressed

[13:50] herman Bergson: the electric chair is about the moral acceptablility of killing a human being who has commited a serious crime

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: there is hope i hope

[13:51] Merlin Saxondale: I dont think it is a bad comparison

[13:51] herman Bergson: Debbie ..you lookin the wrong direction....

[13:51] Framdor: Luckily I am generally positive. so ill forget to be depressed by tomorrow.

[13:51] Louna Quan: smiles to Debbie

[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: oh good

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: the glass is already half full....not already half empty

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:52] herman Bergson: As I already said....

[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true when you look at history

[13:52] herman Bergson: we are a stage in evolution...

[13:52] herman Bergson: and there you can see that the homo sapiens yet has learnt a lot.....

[13:52] herman Bergson: and don't talk about periods of 100 years or so...

[13:52] Beertje Beaumont: and need to learn a lot more...

[13:53] Framdor: My glass? It floweth over with love gratitude, peace and happiness...... in my imagination

[13:53] herman Bergson: we have to put it in the context of periods of tens of thousands of years...

[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: is it wine or whiskey?

[13:53] herman Bergson: I could use a whiskey now ^_^

[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:54] Framdor: true- we've only had electricity and petrol engines for 120 years odd.

[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hmm good idea

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Beertje Beaumont: I'll have Port...

[13:54] herman Bergson: we have science for hardly 300 years....

[13:54] Framdor: and we have evolved an insatiable appetite for energy

[13:54] herman Bergson: and technology for hardly 80 years

[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: and now things are changing so fast!!!!

[13:54] Framdor: and covered the whole planet with offspring.

[13:55] herman Bergson: computers since 1984....

[13:55] Framdor: 1980....

[13:55] herman Bergson: well the personal computer I mean here

[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: amazing

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:55] herman Bergson: so tho it looks like super fast developments....

[13:55] Framdor: the first pc was 1980 - the clock on mine got stuck...

[13:55] Framdor: msdos 1.0

[13:55] herman Bergson: projected on the speed of evolution it is a minute in time

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: was was before a whole room of electron tubes now fits in a pocket calculator and the supercomputers of before now fits in my pocket

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: amazing stuff

[13:56] Merlin Saxondale: Windows 3.1 circa 1993

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:56] Framdor: gosh... windows 3.1 was soooo revolutionary back then

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: was my first computer with that

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: a 486

[13:56] Merlin Saxondale: That always surprises me. The nineties!

[13:56] Beertje Beaumont: but made the technology us better responsible people?

[13:57] herman Bergson: They said in the 60s ...we wont make it till 2000...before that the world will be devastated my nuclear winter....

[13:57] Framdor: It made us faster....

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: now i have more then 100 times that in my mobile

[13:57] herman Bergson: and what is the present situation?

[13:57] herman Bergson: Nuclear threat is hardly a political option anymore....

[13:58] herman Bergson: except for lunatics and terrorists

[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: true

[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: and we have one now

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:58] Framdor: it never was a political option - now there are still 17000 nukes operations. In the cuba crisis - it was about 4000

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: yes this is the modern day cuba crisis i d say

[13:58] Louna Quan: yes north Korea

[13:58] herman Bergson: So don't tell me that we do not evolve, learn....find better solutions for problems

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: korea crisis u may call it

[13:59] Merlin Saxondale: I think we are just putting off these problems but not truely solving them

[13:59] herman Bergson: The north Korean threat is only for domestic purposes....

[13:59] Merlin Saxondale: Like building a dam which must eventually break

[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: yeh hopefully

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: aa yes

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: i dont want to either be blown up or slowly killed by radioactivity

[13:59] herman Bergson: Those leaders know exactly that throwing only the smallest nuclear bomb will lead to the complete devastation of North Korea itself...

[14:00] Beertje Beaumont: poor people there...

[14:00] Framdor: ok herman, show me some responsible corporate or governemnt citizens.... that look in the mirror, and do the right thing consistently.

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: aaaw yes

[14:00] Louna Quan: yes

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: i feel so sad for them

[14:00] herman Bergson: It is a kind of brainwashed mad house I would say....

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:00] herman Bergson: and here too....

[14:00] herman Bergson: the complete lack of education leads to this

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: they cant see at all whats really happening in the world and get false images of the world

[[14:01] Bejiita Imako: and their leader as a god

[14:01] herman Bergson: Education IS our future to become better humans

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: totally locked in

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: and starving to death

[14:01] Framdor: I agree about education...

[14:01] Merlin Saxondale: Yes Bejiita, that was said on the BBC radio today

[14:01] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:01] Framdor: thats why I come to Wainscot -

[14:01] herman Bergson: All evolution is based on the learning system....

[14:01] Merlin Saxondale: There are many starving there in N Korea

[14:02] herman Bergson: I think it is a place of horror and concentration camps to suppress the people

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: they live in a prison, feel sad for them,

[14:02] herman Bergson: But I always wonder....

[14:03] herman Bergson: WHOSE INTERESTS are here at work...???

[14:03] herman Bergson: What group of the population profits from this system and wants to keep it unchanged

[14:03] Gemma Cleanslate: third generation punishment to me is amazing

[14:03] Beertje Beaumont: the Greedy God..KIm?

[14:03] Gemma Cleanslate: or the military leaders

[14:03] Framdor: oh... its evolution.... it must be in all of our interests....

[14:03] herman Bergson: More than one person Beertje....

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: time to go now

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: cu Gemma

[14:04] Beertje Beaumont: or is he just a pupet on a string?

[14:04] Merlin Saxondale: Bye Gemma

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: back nex week

[14:04] Framdor: bye gemma ...

[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[14:04] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma ..wise to ring the bell.....

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: wowo where did time go!

[14:04] Louna Quan: bye Gemma !

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:04] herman Bergson: My goodness yes Bejiita....!

[[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you all again.....

[14:05] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: nice Herman

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday

[14:05] Framdor: thanks herman.... cu next week....

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:05] Louna Quan: thank you Sir Herman it was a great class

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:05] Merlin Saxondale: Bye everyone

[14:05] herman Bergson: My pleasure Louna...

[14:05] Beertje Beaumont: look in the mirror folks....

[14:05] Louna Quan: bye Bejita

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: btw Herman Ewa Aska says hi

[14:05] Beertje Beaumont: mirror

[14:05] Framdor: and hi louna... glad you got a cushion ;)

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:05] Framdor: aww bye merlin

[14:05] herman Bergson: I put it there for her Debbie :-)

[14:06] Louna Quan: my precious butt has been nurtured by Sir Herman's care

[14:06] Framdor: nice herman... you are a sweetie...

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: cu

[14:06] Framdor: bye friends....

[14:06] Louna Quan: bye Debbie

[14:06] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Louna....I know what to value in SLife :-))

[14:06] Beertje Beaumont: lol

[14:07] Louna Quan: you value peace in groups isn't ?

[14:07] herman Bergson: Indeed I do Louna

[14:07] Louna Quan: well I wish you a good end of day

[14:07] Louna Quan: have a nice evening too Beertje

[14:07] herman Bergson: thank you

[14:08] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Louna

[14:08] Beertje Beaumont: tc

467: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 32

In general nobody regards him or herself as a bad person. We all prefer to be regarded as good people. And yet we can be so evil now and then.

What can go wrong , how simple family men can change into killers we learned in the previous lecture: by conformity to the group.

But also in the individual situation we can loose hold on our moral standards, tho human nature isn't inclined to be the cause of evil.

We often aren't aware of how we shift our moral standards to a next level. Social psychology has a name for this, adopted from ecology: Shifting Baselines.

Shifting Baseline Syndrome refers to a gradual change in our accepted norm for ecological conditions.  

The phrase describes an incremental lowering of standards that results with each new generation lacking knowledge of the historical, and presumably more natural, condition of the environment.  

Therefore, each generation defines what is ‘natural’ or ‘normal’ according to current conditions and their personal experiences.  

With each new generation, the expectations of various ecological conditions shifts.  The result is that our standards are lowered almost imperceptibly.

Daniel Pauly, a Canadian scientist, first elucidated the idea of shifting baselines in a 1995 "Trends in Ecology and Evolution paper". 

He wrote about the gradual accommodation of the disappearance of fish species, how each generation of fishers and marine scientists assumed that the population of fish at the beginning of their career was the standard.

Take for instance a leg, a woman's leg to be more specific. In the Victorian Age you already had to faint seeing a naked ankle. Standard was a totally covered leg.

In the 50s everybody stayed on his feet when seeing a naked calf below the knee. And seeing two completely naked legs of a lady here today in SL doesn't disintegrate anybody's pixels anymore.

More serious becomes the story, when we look at the Milgram experiments, first tried by Stanley Milgram, a 28 year old psychologist in 1961.

How can ordinary, decent people become such immoral murderers and torturers. In camps in WWII, in Vietnam or in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

The basic phenomenon is, that in all these situations obedience seems to push aside someone's conscience.

When put under pressure many people are willing to do things, that they actually think are wrong, if not reprehensible or despicable.

Such a stress situation can be pressure of time, or a situation for which one is completely unprepared, or the emphatic instructions of an authority.

In such a situation ordinary people are obviously capable of alleviating their troubled conscience in that they give up their responsibility.

This is a process of small steps. Eventually, what was experienced as immoral gradually becomes normal: we shift our baseline.

If Hitler in 1933 had told  the German people, that he  was planning to murder 6 million human beings for the only reason that they were jewish, I don't think he would have been applauded for that.

It all shifted step by step. In 1935 came the anit-Jewish racial laws. In 1938 the first synagogues were set to fire and only in the summer of 1941 he began with his "endlösung", the final solution. A gradual shifting of moral standards of almost a whole nation.

Conformity to the group and shifting baselines go often hand in hand. This you find in all aspects of society.

When we are convinced that others cooperate, we cooperate. When we are convinced that nobody cooperates, then we don't cooperate either.

Take tax morale: Greece. Every Greek is convinced that his neighbor is evading taxes, so he does the same.

In a company. Everybody believes that the others don't give their utmost at all…..so why should you, tho your moral conviction is, that you have to put all your energy and motivation in your job.

Maybe secretly you think "actually I behave like an asshole here", but on the other hand you adjust to the situation.

For our self-image however we must stay convinced that "the asshole" and the adapted person are yet one and the same person. 

Next time I'll look into the question how we do that…how these two can go hand in hand……

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Debbie DJ: Oh great lecture thanks Herman

[13:25] herman Bergson: thank you Debbie

[13:25] herman Bergson: Little reason for questions or remarks?

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Group conformity and shifting baselines nix badly with strong egotistical leaders who normalize "evil".

[13:26] Dain Shan: True ..

[13:26] Hakudanoku: thank you Herman

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Like a small mob of armed thieves are easily organized by an individual.

[13:27] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:27] Debbie DJ: Or even a government -

[13:27] herman Bergson: yes..because then they leave the responsibility to the leader...

[13:27] herman Bergson: their individual  responsibility

[13:27] Debbie DJ: Yes. While conforming, unquestioning.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes in that sense the homo sapiens still has a lot to learn

[13:28] Debbie DJ: What effect does TV then have in normalizing imposed economic ethics...

[13:28] Debbie DJ: The mind boggles...

[13:28] herman Bergson: TV is doing even worse Debbie....

[13:29] Debbie DJ: The baseline shifts, and conformity is established

[13:29] herman Bergson: Soem French filmmaker...last name Nick reproduced the Milgram experiment as a TV show...

[13:30] herman Bergson: people from the audience were asked to test a candidate (who was part of the experiment)

[13:30] herman Bergson: and in public most people easily administered heavy electric shocks to the candidate....cheered by the crowd...

[13:30] herman Bergson: This "show" was broadcasted in 2010....

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Obedience pushes aside conscience. ....

[13:31] herman Bergson: France 2

[13:31] herman Bergson: exactly....

[13:31] herman Bergson: not only obedience...

[13:31] herman Bergson: but being on TV also here

[13:31] Debbie DJ: Thats like conformity - wanting to show your best side?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Something like that....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Everybody does it...so.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: It seems that we live with double standards....

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Oh look at me... I am willing to hurt people to look like im part of the group?

[13:32] herman Bergson: personally we hold high moral standards....

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes... in a group they can easily shift it appears

[13:33] herman Bergson: As a matter of fact....a bit scary....

[13:33] Debbie DJ: But we are easily influenced, and at work we often do the strangest things in the name of profit.

[13:34] herman Bergson: That have become clear looking at the behavior of the financial world indeed Debbie

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Green behaviour is a prime example.... we fly around, paying fees to tree planters to offset our carbon emissions

[13:34] herman Bergson: economics is completely detached from ethics nowadays

[13:35] Debbie DJ: and trade carbon cap limits????

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes.

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes..another absurdity....

[13:35] herman Bergson: CO2 rights...

[13:35] Debbie DJ: the very word "rights" is the first error

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes....^_^

[13:36] herman Bergson: I never have understood this....and still dont :-))

[13:37] Debbie DJ: So, what can we do as individuals to help avoid this moral absurdity we find ourselves in, without getting fired or feeling like outcasts?

[13:38] Debbie DJ: In other words how can we avoid being led by the noses?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well..we have seen examples of what happens to people who leak information....

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Manning.... yes.

[13:38] herman Bergson: for instance now the "Offshore-leaks"

[13:39] herman Bergson: Have you heard about that?

[13:39] Debbie DJ: The only way I can see is to make all information open. Especially scientific information.

[13:39] Debbie DJ: no? what are the offshore leaks?

[13:40] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Wasn't that BP -

[13:40] herman Bergson: Someone ..a trust qqfund employee , has leaked 280Gb data about how the rich evade taxes and make their wealth invisible...

[13:41] Debbie DJ: Well, good!

[13:41] herman Bergson: Among them ministers of finance..politicians etc.

[13:41] Dain Shan: Ok herman .. Oceane and i call it a day now ㋡ It was great as always.. very interesting !

[13:41] Dain Shan: Thank you

[13:41] Oceane: good bye everyone ,nice talk :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

[13:41] Debbie DJ: I imagine that with the cloud it will become harder to hide things... and easier to find out

[13:42] Debbie DJ: Bye Oceane.

[13:42] Karsten Runningbear: bye

[13:42] herman Bergson: That cloud thing I really don't understand.....

[13:42] Debbie DJ: Technically? or philosophically?

[13:43] herman Bergson: storing your private data on servers you have no control of

z[13:43] herman Bergson: Nobody knows who has access to these datacenters....to these servers

[13:43] Debbie DJ: It has happened. Get used to it.

[13:43] herman Bergson: and don't tell me...nobody ..because of privacy laws....:-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes and I still don't know why it happened

[13:44] Debbie DJ: The thing is that there is a huge swath of data following you - gps, cell phone, all your works and publications....

[13:44] herman Bergson: One keystroke and a malicious government can grab all data centers....

[13:45] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:45] Debbie DJ: And as long as you use good encryption systems, you should be ok....

[13:45] Debbie DJ: and do backups of your own stuff.

[13:45] herman Bergson: And you believe that?!

[13:45] Debbie DJ: not really. its a little mantra I say to make it all right.

[13:45] herman Bergson: nice...^_^

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Its hard to resist the group pressure on this one...

[13:46] Karsten Runningbear: in the 80s we though, all governments collect our data, they couldn't do like google or Facebook do, i am very afraid about this

[13:46] herman Bergson: Same story again ..yes

[13:46] Karsten Runningbear: no data is secured

[13:46] Karsten Runningbear: if you want you get it

[13:47] herman Bergson: Type your name in Google search Karsten.....

[13:47] Debbie DJ: I must say that the positive spin offs are great. like knowing where you are, and getting mail on the move....

[13:47] herman Bergson: You might be surprised what will surface about you.....

[13:47] Karsten Runningbear: i never got a facebook account, but i often get email, people inviding me to facebook

[13:47] Karsten Runningbear: and i know this people

[13:47] herman Bergson: yes and that I find scaring.....

[13:48] Karsten Runningbear: i asked them, the didn't invide me

[13:48] herman Bergson: anonymous machines dig through data....

[13:48] Karsten Runningbear: facebook does it

[13:48] Debbie DJ: Facebook is a whole new pressure group too....

[13:48] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:48] herman Bergson: for then I get a list.....this one and that one seems to know you....etc.

[13:49] Debbie DJ: And bullying is a problem for teenagers. I imagine for adults too....

[13:49] herman Bergson: do you want to add as friend....

[13:49] herman Bergson: I thought I was smart.....

[13:49] herman Bergson: lol

[13:49] Karsten Runningbear: if you drive to fast, police searches google for a photo of you in germany

[13:49] herman Bergson: I deleted my Facebook account.....the one on my RL identity....

[13:50] Debbie DJ: What I find really fascinating is how quickly the kids have adopted typing on a tiny keyboard....

[13:50] herman Bergson: Kids are so easy going with all this

[13:50] Debbie DJ: and how it is always in use.... 24/7 almost

[13:50] herman Bergson: But I made a new Facebook account....

[13:50] herman Bergson: for herman Bergson.....

[13:50] Debbie DJ: Oh cool....

[13:50] Karsten Runningbear: *g*

[13:51] Debbie DJ: and what does google search show?

[13:51] herman Bergson: I thought...nobody knows me, but I can look into others pages yet...

[13:51] herman Bergson: How stupid I was....

[13:51] Karsten Runningbear: i think facebook knows

[13:51] herman Bergson: for I used my gmail account for it....

[13:52] Debbie DJ: ha ha - and it tied everything together. One sign in .....

[13:52] herman Bergson: so I got all shit again of people who I should know

[13:52] Karsten Runningbear: you can make a new email, if you use your computer at home they know you

[13:52] Karsten Runningbear: they know where you are live

[13:52] herman Bergson: that is the point Karten....we are prisoners of our IP address

[13:52] Karsten Runningbear: they know every byte on your computer

[13:52] Debbie DJ: Well for the paranoid, you can use TOR service and Linux...

[13:53] herman Bergson: I guess SL griefers do :-))

[13:53] Karsten Runningbear: they know the MAC address of your router