475: The Art Not toBe an Egoist 40

Ever been to a supermarket? Of course you have. Nothings special about that. But haven't you never wondered about what you see there?

A lane of 10 meters long, one side 5 shelves reaching  about 2 meter high…and on the shelves only potato chips or soft drinks  in all kinds and colors.

Isn't is amazing that we experience this as normal? For every tongue in town there is a special flavor available. For every need or desire you can buy a product.

Because of the complexity of the system you as an individual only can be a prisoner of the system and go with the flow. 

And as we have seen, those who think that they are controlling the system, the bankers, lawyers, investors and so on, only control their own bits and pieces.

The myth we live in is something like this: Economic growth is what brings prosperity. Growth is only created by consumption. Therefor let's stimulate consumption and thus ensure our prosperity.

Nowhere in this myth there is talk about the earth, that it is just one globe, limited in its resources. If you realize that, you also have to realize that the basic axioms of our present economics  is complete lunacy.

But yet this is how our brain works, tho the number of people who see this problem is increasing. However, in general we keep believing in consumerism.

It is amazing to see how our sense of entitlement changes with the changing of our circumstances. Possessing a car was really awesome some 60 or 70 years ago. Today? Of course everybody is entitled to have a car.

But does all this material prosperity also contribute to our happiness? Haven't you ever noticed?  You win a price or get a new car. You really feel overjoyed, but after a while, maybe a month or a year, you feel again like you always feel.

When you have reached a certain level in life, increase of material possessions does not increase our general feeling of happiness. Nevertheless, obtaining, buying something is quite a different feeling from possessing it.

A lot of things we buy, we don't really need, but if we only would buy what we really need our economy would collapse.

This has led to the situation that our economy does not delivers what we need to live a good and rewarding life, but it has developed a system of creating needs, 

promising us that exactly that will lead to that life we long for.We live in a needs creating society, not in a needs fulfilling society.

The irony of it all is, that this is the result of how we are wired at the moment. There is that magic drive in us to feel special and the word that belongs to it is STATUS.

In fact , status is the key why our economy operates as it operates, tho it does not increase the general happiness of people.

And here we also have the weak spot. Already kids learn that Nike sneakers are "better" (for their status) than sneakers from Walmart or ALDI.

Why can't we step back? Put a hold to this advertised needs that we do not have? The answer is simple: loss aversion. We don't want to loose, what we have.

Take this: 

A: you offer your workers an increase in salary of 2% while inflation is 4% or 

B: a reduction in salary of 2%  while prices rise 0%.

The majority choose for option A. It shows how we have real problems with changing the system, we are  in now. 

It takes a lot of courage to bring forward another view, take a step back, but a lot of groups and organisations already do.

 The Discussion 

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you :-))

[13:24] Debbie DJ: thanks herman ...

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours ..

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: hi taffy

[13:24] herman Bergson: Hey Taffy..:-)

[13:24] Taffy: sorry I'm late!

[13:24] Debbie DJ: The loss aversion reason is flawed imho. If we carry on consuming, we lose the earth ;(

[13:24] Debbie DJ: Hi Taffy

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: true debbie

[13:25] herman Bergson: that is the absurdity Debbie....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:25] herman Bergson: But that is how we are...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: and that if u have this ur better then others that don't have it

[13:26] herman Bergson: when you win 1000L you say wow ..nice....

[13:26] herman Bergson: when you loose 1000L you feel in deep trouble :-)

[13:26] Debbie DJ: and the status issue is very close to the ethics issue - we think status in the group, results in being admired - and having a good life

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie how do we look in the eyes of the other....that drives us

[13:27] herman Bergson: or...how we think , we look in the eyes of the others

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: lol..that's often a whole different thing

[13:27] Debbie DJ: But somehow, status is almost unethical now that it is a consumer brand in itself ;)

[13:28] herman Bergson: the weird thing is....they make us believe that status is important.....and then you wonder who is this "THEY"

[13:29] herman Bergson: then you get to the industries producing products

[13:29] Debbie DJ: Yes... who are THEY? Its actually us - we like lots of glitzy stuff, and hate it when others have it and we dont.

[13:30] herman Bergson: As I said....individually we are a kind of prisoners of our own system

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Yep. We are deluding ourself, while pigging out. on the proceeds of excess. How about greenwashing?

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:31] Debbie DJ: where people pretend that the new product is greener, but ignore the environmental cost of replacement.

[13:31] herman Bergson: What is that? Greenwashing?

[13:31] herman Bergson: your lawn in the washing machine?

[13:31] TaffyTaffy snorts

[13:31] Debbie DJ: ;lol

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: using green soap

[13:32] herman Bergson: oh that...

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: soap

[13:32] Debbie DJ: astro turf washer with 17 cycles, and a filter.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Debbie that is hilarious...

[13:32] herman Bergson: We were told that we had "GREEN" electricity...

[13:32] Taffy: we in the US are now being force to use "green" lightbulbs

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:33] herman Bergson: last week a big ad in the newspaper from one of the electricity companies...

[13:33] herman Bergson: green electricity wasn't as green as they had made to believe us..a true confession

[13:34] herman Bergson: green lightbulbs Taffy??

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Just awful herman, and it happens at the highest level. Like how about mining the tar sands - to free america from foreign oil imports?

[13:34] herman Bergson: There goes the red light district :-((

[13:34] Taffy: more efficient lightbulbs...led and such

[13:34] Taffy: haha

[13:34] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:34] Debbie DJ: herman

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: doesn't it give strange light?..I think you look all sick under that light

[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...green?????

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: have gotten better though

[13:35] herman Bergson: yuk

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: one issue however is that only the real expensive ones are dimmable

[13:35] herman Bergson: The next real step in this world is that we drop this obsession with economical growth

[13:36] Debbie DJ: So, the economy hurtles forward, enriching a few, and providing 20 % of the greedy planet with unsustainable goods, and we are running out. Who will put on the brakes?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Economy can also be based on producing just what you need to live a good and rewarding life

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: the question will be what a good and rewarding life is and who defines that.

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: we have to buy less than we did before

[13:37] herman Bergson: that is not so difficult Ciska.....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: to get what we need not buy stuff until we cant get into the house orself for all stuff inside

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: you will do it? ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: You may debate on details but to begin with...

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Good and rewarding should include relaxation time, friends, family - and a chance of survival ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: no violence what soever....

[13:38] herman Bergson: an equal distribution of resources among all people

[13:38] Debbie DJ: yes herman

[13:39] herman Bergson: the possibility to get as much education as possible

[13:39] Taffy: as long as greed exists, we will not distribute

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: yes sure

[13:39] herman Bergson: a general care for the health of the individual

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] Debbie DJ: and no big fat status crap... like 300 mph ferraris

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes we need to share

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: with those that don't have instead of keeping all for ourselves

[13:40] herman Bergson: Is it really so difficult to make up such a list....

[13:40] herman Bergson: But I know...

[13:40] herman Bergson: reality is different...

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: but just because i have an S3 and a SSD drive i don't feel any better then others, i got them cause i have use for them,

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: for ex the ssd made my laptop a more then 3 times faster machine then when i bought it

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: starts in 10 sek instead of 15 minutes

[13:40] Debbie DJ: I was once told the golden rule of science by a corporate science director - He who has the gold makes the rules.

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: better then buying a complete new machine

[13:41] herman Bergson: the intellecual level on this globe still runs from medieval to 21st century scientific

[13:41] Taffy: nods at Debbie

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: yes debbie - and thats why a lot of good things get not done and a good of lesser important get ;)

[13:41] herman Bergson: That Debbie is the arrogance of the rich...

[13:41] herman Bergson: who lack social empathy

[13:42] Debbie DJ: Yes herman, and they use that power to their own ends... and we enjoy the stufff...

[13:42] Debbie DJ: so - who will put the brakes on?

[13:42] herman Bergson: that is the point....

[13:42] herman Bergson: we are doing now by saying what we say...

[13:43] herman Bergson: it gets published in the blog....

[13:43] Debbie DJ: lol....

[13:43] herman Bergson: some may read it....so it gets into other minds...

[13:43] Debbie DJ: i wish i shared your optimism.

[13:43] herman Bergson: no no...realism....

[13:43] herman Bergson: I don't talk of changes in 5 years...

[13:43] Debbie DJ: Nothing is slowing down.

[13:43] herman Bergson: I think of changes in 500 years...

[13:44] Taffy: once enough people believe we can/should/will share, it will happen

[13:44] herman Bergson: at the moment the idiots really realize that we only have one planet to plunder

[13:44] Debbie DJ: in the time since Kyoto - no -one has reduced emissions in any given year...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the Kyoto protocol was a strike in the air

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: nothing have happened

[13:45] herman Bergson: no...because the emission issue became an economical thing....you could make money with emission right s and so on...

[13:45] Debbie DJ: the last drops of oil are being squeezed from the ocean depths, and ripped from the tar sands

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: US dont wanna follow it a t all cause then they cant consume as they want

[13:45] herman Bergson: one big NONSENSE factory

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: those damn emission rights

[13:45] Debbie DJ: and we are fracking the farmlands to get the natural gas.

[13:46] Debbie DJ: this is all bad stuff. Has anyone managed to stop or reduce these actions?

[13:46] herman Bergson: We have a saying...

[13:46] herman Bergson: Eventually the wall will turn the ship...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and in the process poison it with toxic chemicals that i don't know why are needed in the process at all

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Yep herman - it will be the wall.

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: fracking is about using pressure so why these chemicals?

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: dont know what chemicals though need to check how this process really works

[13:47] Debbie DJ: bejita - its also about using up the gas.

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ah that too

[13:47] herman Bergson: Debbie....our shortcoming is that we are inclined to look only within the bounderies of a personal lifetime...

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Look for the movie Gasland on youtube.

[13:48] herman Bergson: But I am wondering what will be there in a hundred yeard after my death

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:48] Debbie DJ: Hey herman - things that happen now are more relevant to me than those that happen when im dead.

[13:48] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:48] Debbie DJ: yeah

[13:48] herman Bergson: no no...

[13:49] herman Bergson: that is not what I mean...

[13:49] herman Bergson: I mean..what is happening now shapes the world for the future

[13:49] herman Bergson: and yes ..you can see only the based things...

[13:49] herman Bergson: but you also can listen to the good sounds...

[13:50] herman Bergson: and thus you cal me an optimist Debbie :-)

[13:50] Debbie DJ: perspective is important here. We have only been using energy this wildly for 100 years, and we have used more than half of the available fuels.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Exactly....

[13:50] Debbie DJ: OK herman, you are an optimist, and thanks for being one. You cheer me up most times.

[13:50] herman Bergson: and every fool can see that..

[13:51] herman Bergson: my pleasure Debbie :-))

[13:51] Debbie DJ: oh yeah> there was denial until recently, and lots of fools still do.

[13:51] Debbie DJ: :))

[13:51] herman Bergson: Sure....

[13:51] herman Bergson: But the number of people who start scratching behind their ears increase

[13:52] Debbie DJ: some fool petrol companies paid to disseminate untruths about peak oil = mobil

[13:52] Taffy: and the more people that become aware, will begin to reflect a change

[13:52] Debbie DJ: And, shamefully, I still daily use petrol to get around.

[13:52] herman Bergson: indeed Taffy!

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: we can start fi by ourselves by trying not to use so much energy

[13:53] herman Bergson: there are two options for the homo sapiens....

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: but we have hardly any alternatives, at least that are affordable

[13:53] herman Bergson: either it is a virus that brings the earth to near destruction

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: but we need to get around cause we need to get to work ect

[13:53] Debbie DJ: Debbie bites lip, and sits quietly, emotionally spent... and out of breath

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: i use my bike...i don't have a car..i use a broom to clean instead of a vacuum cleaner

[13:53] herman Bergson: or it is a smart species living in balance with nature

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: those little things can help

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i also are fairly close to my work so take the bike when nice weather and then can also take some zones in this Turf game i play

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: we use car sharing here when needed too yes- no own car - works out great

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: also a good thing

[13:55] Debbie DJ: Debbie wants a flying broom and other magic to reduce her consumption...

[13:55] herman Bergson: me too Debbie ^_^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe that would be cool indeed

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: like in Harry potter

[13:56] .: Beertje :.: we can all reduce consumption if we want

[13:56] .: Beertje :.: it isnt'that hard to do

[13:56] Debbie DJ: I have one thing to say Bejita - 7 B people and 5 electrirc motors each ;)

[13:56] herman Bergson: Ok...let's stick to Beertje's suggestion :-)

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:57] herman Bergson: I guess it is time to conclude our discussion :-)

[13:57] herman Bergson: So Thank you all gain for your participation...

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thanks everyone - thanx herman ㋡

[13:58] Taffy: thank you Herman

[13:58] Debbie DJ: thanks Herman, and sorry I went off... This consumption issue is a core concern to me.

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: have a great day or night ㋡

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: some more stuff to think about ㋡

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all ㋡

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight...thank you Herman..great lecture again

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:58] herman Bergson: thank you Beertje

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:59] herman Bergson: gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo

[13:59] herman Bergson: which means

[13:59] Debbie DJ: got it

[14:00] Debbie DJ: ty google ;)

[14:00] herman Bergson: that the drop does now hollow the stone by its power but by sdropping often

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ah

[14:00] Debbie DJ: its a lovely saying, and you are doing a lot of good with your work here.

[14:00] herman Bergson: And I think I am just one of those drops

[14:00] Taffy: there will be more drops

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:01] Debbie DJ: its just that the destructive capitalism is so huge...

[14:01] Debbie DJ: and we are so out of control.

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: indeed and have such power

[14:01] herman Bergson: Yes Taffy..that is my belief too...I am not the only one...

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all, gotta run ㋡

[14:01] Debbie DJ: yes... me too. cu tuesday.

[14:01] herman Bergson: By Bejiita :-)

[14:01] Debbie DJ: bye taffy , and by Herman

[14:02] Debbie DJ: *•.¸♥MwAHh♥¸.•*

[14:02] Taffy: bye everyone, and thank you Herman for inviting me

[14:02] Taffy: to participate

474: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 39

What is wrong with our social system? How could a financial crisis occur in such a magnitude, where nobody really saw it coming?

The system has become so complicated that every economist, risk manager, lawyer, banker only can see what is happening nearby. 

Nobody sees the whole picture and just assumes that what the man above him does, is ok, who assumes the same of the man above him and so on.

It is a general feature of our economic system. Thousands of people work in it to keep the train running. 

But they can't see further than their own train carriage and the ones before and behind them. But who decides on the direction of the  train?

This is a question you almost never hear in the debates. The answer you get is stereotype but empty: economic growth and employment.

We are so used to the concept of economic growth that we almost automatically assume that good economy is when it just goes on like that. Good economy = growth.

The odd thing here is that great thinkers on economics have given quite a different answer. Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Karl Marx, David Ricardo and John Maynard Keynes for instance.

They all said in their own way that the direction of the economy should be right. And WHAT is right here? There they agreed: the right direction is the same direction ethics points in.

Economy is in fact the realisation of a moral principle with practical and financial means. In other words, its goal is to create the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.

What makes us happy is to live a good and rewarding life together with our fellowmen. This means that behind every economic theory is a philosophy of life, a view of life, a social ideal.

Economics isn't an unbiassed theory, not the mathematics of money, labor and resources. It is not a science like physics is, tho some love to make you believe it is an exact science.

A good life is a mixture of material and immaterial well-being. Material prosperity is not an end in itself, necessary yes, but not a sufficient condition for our well-being.

So much for the theory. Philosophers, however, are nowadays replaced by economists, lobbyists, spin doctors and consultants. Their theme isn't the future, but chances on the market, chances of power and career.

They just want to keep the system going as it is. Yet deciding on the direction of our society and economy was around 1800 still part of a moral debate.

But since economics has obtained the status of an independent science and can impress the spectators with impressive mathematical formulas, it developed its own "morals".

It has given the answer to the question what needs in society should be dealt with first and which later and the primary need has become : consumption, for consumption implies growth.

For every need we have there is a product, which you can buy. We can buy joy and pleasure, things that make us feel to  be different and standing out. We can buy security and insurances.

Every commercial tells us the same story. This is the product you always have been looking for!

The more we "materialize" our life, the better our life will be, some assume.

That new computer with it awesome graphic power, lots of memory and dual core super fast processor will give you finally what you always have longed for in SL, they whisper in our ear.

-to be continued

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: -to be continued. thank you ^_^

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: the floor is yours :-))

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats how it works, making us buy more and more and more even we really don't need it but just because its the latest model

[13:24] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita....

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: they create a need..and we believe it

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: even if we already have good working stuff already

[13:24] herman Bergson: and the peculiar thing is...

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: like a galaxy 4? Bejiita?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: hehe well im happy with mine for now

[13:25] herman Bergson: we never needs iPhones etc...but now we have them we cant live without them anymore

[13:25] Goblin Crosby: oh i have one of those lol

[13:25] herman Bergson: You are not the only one Goblin :-))

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: however got an ssd for my laptop but that was needed, together with linux the machine is now 10 times faster then when it was new and loaded with really slow hard drive and crap vista

[13:25] herman Bergson: But don't you need the latest model?

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but i still use same computer i didn't buy a new one, just replaced the drive and os

[13:26] Goblin Crosby: Well this is actually my first cellphone so after years of watching everyone else i went out and got this one

[13:27] Goblin Crosby: It wasn't a need i'm sure

[13:27] herman Bergson: I got the old Nokia of my wife....and never use it ^_^

[13:27] Goblin Crosby: but it does make life easier

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Goblin...easier....but does it make your life happier too?

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: i never bought a cellphone..I still have an old free one

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: it still does what it has to do...:)

[13:28] herman Bergson: The point today is that our economy is based on consumption....

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: I always asked myself why in commercials it is allowed to lie, they promise us a wonderful life with their products and in fact it is not true

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: the good thing with the one i have is i can have my work and similar in it , so i don't need all these papers everywhere

[13:28] Goblin Crosby: oh actually a bit more frustrating if i sit down and think about it and now i'm in a contract and stuck paying this ob seen monthly bill

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: very convenient

[13:28] herman Bergson: Not on a reasonable distribution of resources and services in this world

[13:29] herman Bergson: Exactly Goblin...

[13:29] .: Beertje :.: they always lie Lizzy..they make always things better..were the old things nog good enough anymore?

[13:29] herman Bergson: We think that all these new gadgets contribute to our freedom and possibilities....

[13:29] Goblin Crosby: they make you think u need it then once u get it they use a contract to hold over our head so in a way they use fear to keep u coming back

[13:29] herman Bergson: but do they really?

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i want my stuff to last as long as possible at least

[13:30] herman Bergson: I'll elaborate on these issues in the next lecture...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: to be somewhat future safe

[13:30] Goblin Crosby: Well i have good credit and if i don't hold true to the contract it could hurt my credit so the fear of a lower credit score

[13:30] .: Beertje :.: how long is that Bejiita?

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: tomorrow?

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: our monitors are made for 3 years..then they will collaps

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: for ex my computer and tv here is same as when i moved in here about 6 years ago, just a bit better graphic card and bigger drive but otherwise the same

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: why?

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: also the tv, sure there is smart tvs and so but this i have works yet

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: so i don't really need tv get a new i feel

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and this computer perform so good

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: no need replacing it

[13:32] herman Bergson: Seems you are inmune to commercials Bejiita :-))

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: but it's not only computers and stuff like that..it's everything

[13:32] herman Bergson: oh yes...

[13:33] herman Bergson: your shampoo.....30% better now....

[13:33] herman Bergson: or your car....

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: they want us to buy and buy and buy..even if we don't need it

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: well if i don't have a particular thing for a task ill get it , for ex my galaxy s3 cause a computer in my pocket is convenient but this is so good i don't need to get all new models after it

[13:33] herman Bergson: that is the system Beertje.....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: as long this one can perform what i want

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: we have thousands of promotional impulses every day, you can't be inmune

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: I often ask myself..do I need this...and if I doubt..I don't buy

[13:34] herman Bergson: And the most scary thing is....

[13:35] herman Bergson: the bankers continue their trade as if nothing has happened

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: the best is to go in town when the stores are closed beertje

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: lol Lizzy

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:35] herman Bergson: smart strategy Lizzy

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: Throws an S4 at Beertje

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and a SSD drive

[13:36] Goblin Crosby: but along with them making us think we need it because its better a part of our brain wants social acceptance so we buy in hopes to be accepted by our peers in some ways

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: throws it back...I don't need it Bejiita

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ritght thing´king

[13:36] herman Bergson: exactly Goblin....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thinking

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll deal with that....

[13:36] herman Bergson: the magic word is STATUS

[13:37] Goblin Crosby: peer pressure is a huge driving force in a material economy and Facebook has become the standard example of that

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: ah..Status....I'm allergic to that

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: its good these devices and similar exist but we dont need new ones all time

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: if we already have good working ones

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes latest stuff = status

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thats also a thing

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: also a problem

[13:38] herman Bergson: Bejiita...they'll tell you that they aren't good enough anymore

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: like the iPhone hype

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: when new model comes out there is a mob at the stores

[13:39] Goblin Crosby: you cant like anything on Facebook or the net without the adds of what u liked popping up on every site u go to minutes later

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes and the fact that people might laugh at you when you tell that you still have no flat screen TV with interactivity and internet :-)

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: i have a samsung 32 inch flat screen but its still working and i cant run sl on a smart tv i still need my computer for that

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: rareley watch tv

[13:40] herman Bergson: That is a hell indeed Goblin...to observe how you are tracked and watched

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: uses it mostly for this games and movies

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: watched hockey VM now

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: sweden won agains denmark 4 2

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson:  ♫♪♫♪ ♪♫♪♫   APPLAUSE    ♪♫♪♫ ♫♪♫♪ 

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: the fun thing was we played like crap first 2 episodes and then crushed them in the last one

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: unexpected

[13:41] herman Bergson smiles

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:41] Goblin Crosby: U would think in a society of such material speeding prices would decrease but its not the case in a solid economy things should in common since practice become more affordable

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: congrats Bejiita:)

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: shopping induces the release of happiness hormones, so its not only what the sellers tell us

[13:42] Goblin Crosby: yes instant gratification

[13:42] herman Bergson: indeed Lizzy.....the buying is the rewarding thing....the possession of the product isn't

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes read about that

[13:43] herman Bergson: after a few weeks the new dress is just another dress

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: but i mostly get that feeling when i see all working afterward for ex when i saw how well my laptop worked after i put that ssd in THEN came the real feeling

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: YES

[13:44] .: Beertje :.: but in my shop you can buy a LOT of dresses that will always be new:)

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: when i see that all payed off in the end

[13:44] herman Bergson: good ad, Beertje :-)

[13:44] Goblin Crosby: My mother is always borrowing money from friends and family a couple weeks back when she was shopping i asked her do you get high when you shop and she said yes

[13:44] Goblin Crosby: to her its a drug

[13:45] herman Bergson: Oh yes it really can be.....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaaa ok

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed

[13:45] herman Bergson: it is in our brain.....

[13:45] herman Bergson: dopamine...

[13:45] herman Bergson: the reward hormon :-)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: there are even brain scientists involves in making commercials

[13:46] herman Bergson: doesn't surprise me Lizzy....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like we now have also behavioral economics

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: indeed i'm not surprised if they went that far

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: to make us continue our mass hysteria consumption

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: shops are decorated by those brain scientist...they know exactly what you will buy

[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:47] Goblin Crosby: Walmart hires specialist like that to arrange there stores

[13:47] herman Bergson: put test persons in an MRI scanner and show them pictures....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: the thing is we need to see behind the commercials

[13:47] herman Bergson: of products or interiors..

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: they know exactly how to approach special customers, like children, woman, older people

[13:48] Goblin Crosby: nods

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: that the real message is not that we need it but that they just want our money in many cases and we really don't need that stuff

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: and men Lizzy:)

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: of course Beertje :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: gear and stuff...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: some stuff is good but mush is just snake oil

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and we don't need ALL new models coming out

[13:49] herman Bergson: Well...I notice that you are well prepared in ideas for my next lecture :-))

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: So thank you all again for your participation...

[13:50] herman Bergson: Next lecture will be this Thursday same time same place

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu soon then

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you

[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:50] Goblin Crosby: Thank you this was good i will be back for sure

[13:51] Goblin Crosby: it was nice meeting all of you

[13:51] herman Bergson: ok Goblin....thank you :-)

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: most of the time it's even better Goblin:)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] Goblin Crosby: :)

[13:51] herman Bergson: Beertje :-)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: yes please come regularly Goblin

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: always interesting

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight all:)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu al

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: truste

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: Night Bertje, Night all

[13:51] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[13:53] herman Bergson: Hi Rodney....

[13:53] Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman

473: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 38

Watch the following Youtube movie. It will take only 2:09 minutes. Pay special attention to the last scene with the 14 months old kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WABzcRMQ4h8

We have a natural inclination for cooperation and supporting each other. Those who mean that we are just selfish beings who go only after their own interests are wrong.

But if this inclination is in our genes, why do we, as adults, make such a limited use of it? There is a maybe somewhat disturbing answer to that question.

Take the next experiment; three groups of 20 months old children. When a child in group one showed cooperative behavior it received a reward, some little toy.

Those in group 2 were explicitly praised only. Group 3 didn't get any kind of reward for cooperative behavior.

The experiments were like the last one in the Youtube movie. What was the result? The children in group 2 and 3 retained their cooperative behavior through a series of tests.

However, the unconditional cooperative behavior of the children in group 1 was gone. They only helped , when there was a reward.

Similar experiments showed the same results. The message is unequivocal: a person, who is conditioned to do things in exchange for a material reward, has trouble doing the same things, when there is no reward in prospect.

It is clear that (altruistic) cooperation and material reward is not a natural relation, hard wired in our brain. 

Instead we are thus conditioned in our childhood, that this connexion is imprinted in our brain. If the connexion is there, it becomes an automatic reflex.

In other words: we are not egoists by nature, but by nurture. This leads to other conclusions, because our whole economic system is based on exchange of goods and rewards.

There is no other conclusion possible then to say that money changes our natural attitudes and thus also society.

Georg Simmel (1858 - 1918), a German sociologist, wrote "Philosophy des Geldes" (1900) [The Philosophy of Money]. His question was, what influence has money on us and our culture.

He wanted to understand the cultural and moral changes caused by the influence of money. A field of research now inhabited by behavioral economists.

While before,says Simmel, social differences, guilds, religion, traditions and the like determined the rules of the game, now (i.e. 1900) rules the calculating rationality of money. 

The quality of life is measured in money. The value which things have for us, we do no longer describe it in the use they have for us, but is expressed by its price, the bigger car, the expensive watch.

Like a juvenile criminal said: "I got addicted to money. It is like drugs. When you can earn (.ie. by stealing and street robbery hB.)  money so easily, it feels good. You want to do it again and again and again, until you can't live without it anymore."

The most stunning example of how money destroys morality was in the Dutch TV News last week.

There is some new product on the market: the e-shisha stick. Tastes like candy, but you "smoke" it like a cigaret. 

The issue was increasingly that it was popular among young children (10 - 13) and that it could contain carcinogenic substances.

Then you get the next interview with the representative of the wholesales company which distributes the product.

Interviewer: "Do you know what substances are in it?"

Representative: " I think, that it is less harmful than cigarets, but I can not imagine that it is healthy."

Interviewer: "Then, why do you sell it?"

Representative: "Yes…well…. why do you sell liquor, why do you sell candy?"

I think you can not find a better proof that money has its own rules which seem to transcend moral standards.

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:39] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^

[13:39] Debbie DJ: Debbie is speechless.

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman, Great lecture!

[13:39] Debbie DJ: thank you Herman

[13:39] Debbie DJ: so - were only in it for the money?

[13:39] herman Bergson: my pleasure

[13:40] Oceane: great class, herman, thank you so much ㋡

[13:40] seekerp: thank u herman

[13:40] seekerp: now il go to religion class

[13:40] seekerp: lol

[13:40] herman Bergson: I must say that I too found it all a but disturbing....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: a really horrible example of this is the mexican drug wars, the drugs make people crazy and are dangerous stuff and also they murder each other in the masses for the money that they get from those drugs

[13:40] herman Bergson: But on the other hand also hopeful

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: as long they can make money from the drugs doesn't matter how many they kill or that gets ill bu the drugs

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: really sad story

[13:41] Debbie DJ: Lets hear the hopeful bit then?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well....

[13:42] herman Bergson: the positive part of the story is that our inclination to cooperate and support eachother is innate....

[13:42] Debbie DJ: only until it is corrupted by money.

[13:42] herman Bergson: We "disable" it to some extend by learning to work for material rewards...

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: material stuff seems to easily change this

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: we should be more aware of the real value of a thing and not of its monetary value

[13:43] herman Bergson: In the long term it means tht we have to revise our way of living together completely....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa true lizzy

[13:43] herman Bergson: the whole idea of economic growth....it is nuts....

[13:43] herman Bergson: indeed Lizzy...

[13:43] Debbie DJ: It also probably means that poor people have better ethics than paid workers?

[13:44] Debbie DJ: or at least better community spirit

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: i noticed that many people are changing their minds about values when they are getting older

[13:44] Debbie DJ: Older people worry about their children future Lizzy...

[13:45] herman Bergson: If they are not caught in the web of material rewards..but only in an economy that only produces for what is needed, you might be right Debbie

[13:45] herman Bergson: In what sense Lizzy?

[13:45] Mouse Moorlord: bye

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: not so much counting money and not do greedy anymore

[13:45] herman Bergson: oh...maybe I can give you a real example....

[13:46] Debbie DJ: I see some of that in the poorer areas of South Africa. The people are cohesive and often supportive.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Exactly.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Even in SL....

[13:46] herman Bergson: I am a scripter.....

[13:46] seekerp: thank u all

[13:46] herman Bergson: but if you ask me to write scripts offering me 5000L , I wouldn't accept it....

[13:47] herman Bergson: my value is that it has to be fun to write the script...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Like in RL...

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: we have to confess that money has its own rules

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, u need motivation for it indeed not just money

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Good man herman. But sl is different to rl... the money is token for a start

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:47] herman Bergson: I have a nice pension..money cant motivate me to find some additional work and income

[13:48] herman Bergson: Ok it is nice a few extra bucks now and then....

[13:48] Debbie DJ: sl is almost a nirvanah... we all come in here to play, like interactive television...

[13:49] herman Bergson: But in Rl it has to come from winning the lottery...not from having a job again ^_^

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: true ㋡

[13:49] Debbie DJ: It is the stuff of "self actualisation"

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: would you have acted similar 25 years ago herman?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes it is interactive TV Debbie....

[13:49] herman Bergson: Good question Lizzy.....and that was your point too

[13:49] herman Bergson: The older you get values change...

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: its probably a question of maturity

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yet I never have looked for new jobs then to get a better salary....I was content with being what I loved to be..a teacher

[13:51] herman Bergson: The pay was sufficient...

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: did you work in free economy?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Never had the ambition to become a head of a department or even a whole Academy....:-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: what do you mean Lizzy?

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: if you worked as an official?

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: or in economy

[13:53] herman Bergson: It is the Netherlands...so...:-) nice place to be

[13:54] herman Bergson: ahh...I don't know the tech words for it...in US it is tenure..I believe...

[13:54] herman Bergson: I was an employe of a university....with a contract

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: yes may be

[13:54] herman Bergson: contract for indefinite time

[13:55] Debbie DJ: Nice job herman ;)

[13:55] Debbie DJ: Makes you more altruistic...

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes it really was Debbie...

[13:55] herman Bergson: Never motivated by the money, but by my students....:-)

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: thats the way to go ㋡

[13:56] herman Bergson: That you have a job and get paid you take for granted....It is the system

[13:57] Debbie DJ: I always worked for corporates - way different.

[13:57] herman Bergson: But what shocked me today was to learn what material reward can do to our true human nature

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: yes herman

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:57] Debbie DJ: Yes. The experiment with the 3 groups of babies... is there a video link?

[13:58] herman Bergson: so ..in other words....there is a real flaw in our economic system.....

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:58] Debbie DJ: Well, there sure is. And its driving us to over consumption.

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: but we also know that children are extreme egoists too

[13:59] herman Bergson: I found the video by a search on Felix Warneken

[13:59] herman Bergson: maybe Michael Tomasello may bring you other stuff

[14:00] herman Bergson: they were researchers of the Max Planck Institute

[14:01] herman Bergson: Not by nature is seems Lizzy

[14:01] Oceane: sorry folks I have to leave now, please take care everybody

[14:01] herman Bergson: thnx for coming Oceane

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: bye Oceane

[14:02] Debbie DJ: Aha - found a group of videos...

[14:02] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: oki ㋡

[14:02] Lizzy Pleides: they have a development until they are adult of course, thereÄs no contradiction

[14:02] herman Bergson: But take all pieces of the puzzle together so far.....

[14:02] Debbie DJ: cool. I like watching the background info...

[14:02] herman Bergson: We take life for granted as it is.....

[14:02] herman Bergson: but...

[14:03] herman Bergson: there are peaceful societies on this earth...people who never go to war or use extreme violence....

[14:03] herman Bergson: then you see that material reward is maybe the worst way of motivating people....

[14:04] herman Bergson: ok....to get that all understood in this money dominated world will take a century perhaps....

[14:04] Debbie DJ: Money has changed as well since 1900 - we now print it like there is no tomorrow...

[14:05] herman Bergson: But I think ..if the homo sapiens wants to survive, he has to discover the value of these observations and adapt to them

[14:06] Debbie DJ: I dont think its going to happen in time to save about half of the population :((

[14:06] herman Bergson: Just imagine Debbie....Simmel already saw what we now experience every day....how money ruins morality...

[14:06] herman Bergson: and that was 100 years ago

[14:06] Debbie DJ: Sure he did, but he didn't change anything.

[14:07] herman Bergson: no...maybe not.....or maybe he did for he is still remembered for his words....

[14:08] Lizzy Pleides: maybe the people didn't understand him a 100 years ago

[14:08] herman Bergson: and these days more and more people begin to understand the absurdity of our economic system with its infinite growth dogma

[14:08] Debbie DJ: Unless you are a very rich person... then you get to make your own riles.

[14:09] herman Bergson: No Lizzy...for it was a period of great scientific and industrial growth...

[14:09] Debbie DJ: and you don't see the absurdity , just the mansion, and car.

[14:09] herman Bergson: yes Debbie...there is indeed one obstacle....

[14:10] herman Bergson: it is the rich people who are in control at the moment....

[14:10] herman Bergson: and like the juvenile criminal....

[14:10] herman Bergson: ...more more more became the drive

[14:10] Lizzy Pleides: was it different in the middle ages?

[14:10] Debbie DJ: and the rich people own the guns and means of oppression

[14:10] Bejiita Imako: money = power and also your personal value

[14:10] Bejiita Imako: thats crazy

[14:11] herman Bergson: I think it was Lizzy...

[14:11] Debbie DJ: I agree it was Herman.

[14:11] herman Bergson: Tho you were rich you still had to obey the rules of religion and tradition...

[14:11] herman Bergson: not the money rules....

[14:12] Debbie DJ: and the virus didn't stop at the castle gates...

[14:12] Lizzy Pleides: but there were serfs and slaves

[14:12] herman Bergson: But the fact that you represented the authority of god on this earth defined your power

[14:12] Lizzy Pleides: and people like Medici and Fuggers

[14:12] herman Bergson: Now it is the amount of money you control what defines your power

[14:12] Debbie DJ: Another trick played by the rich on the poor

[14:13] Debbie DJ: religion that is

[14:13] herman Bergson: true Debbie....

[14:13] Debbie DJ: Debbie rubs her temples, and shrugs off the negative mood....

[14:14] herman Bergson: religion has always been a means of controlling the masses

[14:14] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:14] Debbie DJ: and now, it is all done by money.

[14:14] herman Bergson: I still feel positive Debbie :-)

[14:14] herman Bergson: but we wont live to see it....

[14:14] herman Bergson: it is a matter of centuries

[14:15] herman Bergson: like evolution is

[14:16] herman Bergson: Just realize that I am not the only person on this globe with these ideas and thaoughts...

[14:16] Debbie DJ: Im also optimistic for the survival of the planet, and some humans...

[14:16] herman Bergson: on the contrary...:-)

[14:16] herman Bergson: I just steal whatever I like and tell it you all :-)

[14:16] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:16] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[14:16] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[14:16] Debbie DJ: thats a big confession ;)

[14:16] Debbie DJ: and you had me fooled....

[14:17] herman Bergson: No Debbie...there is one important personal addition....

[14:17] Debbie DJ: Will you edit that out before you blog it?

[14:17] herman Bergson: I may steal..ok....

[14:17] herman Bergson: but it is ME and MY MIND that chooses WHAT to steal :-)

[14:18] herman Bergson: not a word Debbie ^_^

[14:18] Debbie DJ: :)))) - Yes. and I do enjoy your mind....

[14:18] Debbie DJ: You cheer me up

[14:18] herman Bergson: I already got a mail from some Dwight Adams....

[14:18] herman Bergson: He said...

[14:19] herman Bergson: he....I was reading your lecture on Lady Cockburn and noticed that line so and so were literally copied from the Stanford Encyclopedia ^_^

[14:19] herman Bergson: while you didn't refer to that source...!!!

[14:19] Lizzy Pleides: ohh

[14:20] herman Bergson: He caught me in the act !!!!!

[14:20] Debbie DJ: oops. There is software to spot plagiarism at school these days...

[14:20] Lizzy Pleides: was he angry?

[14:20] herman Bergson: Well his job was to do so at some university in the US ..lol

[14:21] herman Bergson: no he was nice...appreciated my philosophical efforts....

[14:21] herman Bergson: He just said…mention your sources...academic decency...

[14:21] herman Bergson: and he was right on that

[14:21] Debbie DJ: Thats ok then - he was just showing off his new ability..

[14:21] Lizzy Pleides: we had some politicians in Germany with plagiats in their graduations

[14:21]  herman Bergson grins

[14:21] Debbie DJ: Ok friends, I must dash...

[14:22] herman Bergson: maybe it was that :-)

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:22] Lizzy Pleides: yes me too Debbie

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: wow time flies

[14:22] herman Bergson: no he wasn't….

[14:22] Debbie DJ: Lovely lecture tonight... and see you all on thursday?

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[14:23] Bejiita Imako: cu next time

[14:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:23] herman Bergson: He probably made a study of Lady Cockburn...if I spell her name right....and ran into my lecture of 2009

[14:23] Debbie DJ: byeeeee Herman, Bejita, Lizzy

[14:23] Lizzy Pleides: good night Herman, byee all

[14:23] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie...

[14:23] Debbie DJ: aaah ok ;)

[14:23] Bejiita Imako: night all