480: Yi Ching continued

A question, which now and then surfaces in my mind is: "What will be the future of The Philosophy Class?" Who can tell? There is only one answer: the Yi Ching. So I consulted it.

The result was a so called hexagram. I used coins as divination method. How that works isn't relevant at this moment. The outcome was:

                                        ____   ____

                                        ____   ____

                                        ____   ____

                                        ____   ____

                                        _________

                                        ____   ____

The name of this hexagram is Sze, The Army. Symbolic of: the mass of humanity. 

Sze indicates how, in the case which it supposes, with firmness and correctness, and a leader of age and experience, there will be good fortune and no error.

The JUDGEMENT tells you in which circumstance this sign is favourable or not. And it is: The army needs perseverance And a strong man. Good fortune without blame.

The IMAGE describes the powers of the two trigrams that depict your circumstance. And it says: In the middle of the earth is water: The image of the Army.Thus the superior man increases his masses by generosity toward the people.

Besides that every line gets an interpretation, where line one is the bottom line. The meaning of line 2 is: 

"The second line, undivided, shows  the leader  in the midst of the host. There will be good fortune and no error. The king has thrice conveyed to him the orders of his favour."

I don't know how you read this, but I read that through my perseverance and generosity to the people the class will flourish and prosper. Thus according to old Chinese wisdom.

The Yi Ching is old. The original name was Yi  or Zhouyi. During the Han Dynasty (206 BCE - 220 CE) Ching was added to the name. From that time until the Confucian classics Yi is often translated with "change".

The oldest manuscript that has been found, albeit incomplete, dates back to the Warring States Period (475–221 BCE).

During the Warring States Period, the text was re-interpreted as a system of cosmology and philosophy that subsequently became intrinsic to Chinese culture. 

It centered on the ideas of the dynamic balance of opposites, the evolution of events as a process, and acceptance of the inevitability of change.

The subject-matter of the text may be briefly represented as consisting of sixty-four short essays, enigmatically and symbolically expressed, 

on important themes, mostly of a moral, social, and political character, and based on the same number of lineal figures, each made up of six lines, some of which are whole and the others divided.

The ancient Chinese were distinguished by a mathematical turn of mind. For, while the literature of all other nations begins with religious hymns and mythological lore of some kind, the oldest documents of the Chinese exhibit arithmetical devices.

Traditionally, the creation of the Yi Ching is attributed to the mythical emperor Fu Xi. (3322 BCE) He would supernaturally have obtained the  knowledge of the eight trigrams when he saw how water was dripping from the shell of a turtle.

And here we learn of the famous concepts of Yin and Yang. Yang means "bright," and Yin "dark." Yang is the principle of heaven, Yin is the principle of earth. 

Yang is the sun, Yin is the moon. Yang is, as we should say, positive; Yin is negative. Yang is, as the Chinese say, masculine and active. 

Yin is feminine and passive. The former is motion, the latter is rest. Yang is strong, rigid, lordlike; Yin is mild, pliable, submissive, wifelike. 

Yang was originally represented by a small, bright circle (o), Yin by a small, dark circle (•), but in their combinations these symbols were replaced by full and broken lines, " __  __"and "_____".

A group of three elementary lines is called "Kwa". Behind me you see a diagram of the 8 trigrams and their meanings.

All the things in the world,  man included, are thought to be

compounds of Yang and Yin elements. In this way the Chinese philosophy has become a theory of permutation, and the origin of all things is traced to a change in the combinations of Yang and Yin.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you..:-))

[13:21] Gemma Allen: interesting

[13:21] Loo Zeta-Ah: thanks

[13:21] Sigmund Oppenbaum: So, Chinese Philosophy is based on a binary system?

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you!

[13:22] Gemma Allen: the idea of the mathematical beginning

[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours ^_^

[13:22] Anne Tee Chu: great

[13:22] Gemma Allen: as the root of the philosophy

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...surprised me too

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: interesting

[13:23] .: Beertje :.: what a difference with our philosophy

[13:23] herman Bergson: But I was very pleased with my fortune as predicted by the Yi Ching :-)

[13:23] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:23] Loo Zeta-Ah: :)

[13:24] herman Bergson: Sze tells me that if I lead my army well all will be well :-)

[13:24] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:24] Anne Tee Chu: Isn't the I Ching more a religion as an philosophical way of life?

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: lucky you:)

[13:24] Gemma Allen: and i is military also

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Anne....

[13:24] Gemma Allen: in structure

[13:24] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Does Sze know you are trying to lead Western army into battle with Chinese Philosophy?

[13:24] Sigmund Oppenbaum: :-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: the "problem" with this project is that it is about Non Western Philosophy....

[13:25] Anne Tee Chu: okeee I understand^^

[13:25] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:25] herman Bergson: but where we make a sharp distinction between theology and philosophy....

[13:25] Gemma Allen: different for sure

[13:25] Loo Zeta-Ah: yes all that we hold 'true' is not

[13:25] herman Bergson: Chinese philosophy doesn't.

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: I think the same. Is it possible to make difference between these things?

[13:26] herman Bergson: but it would be too arrogant to just dismiss all Now Western Philosophy as plain theology

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is a form of interpretation...?

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: religion and philosophy

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: also in the western land

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Loo...

[13:26] herman Bergson: it is an interpretation of reality....

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: it also is....

[13:27] Anne Tee Chu: always

[13:27] Anne Tee Chu: i mean

[13:27] herman Bergson: and the Chinese did it completely different ...

[13:27] herman Bergson: For us it is hard to understand...

[13:28] herman Bergson: But on the other hand...this philosophy..this Yi Ching dominated Chinese thinking for centuries...up to now even

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: it is a bit difference for sure

[13:28] Gemma Allen: well if we call it a good and the yin yang

[13:28] Gemma Allen: ”°º× Ⓔ√ιℓ ׺°”

[13:28] Loo Zeta-Ah: I have Monty Python going through my head... 'and now for something completely different'

[13:28] Gemma Allen: I sorry..

[13:28] Gemma Allen: oops I'm Sorry!

[13:28] Anne Tee Chu: I guess Chinese do not change thinking so often as we do^^

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:29] herman Bergson: well..one thing about the Yi Ching makes even sense for us....

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is about balance

[13:29] Gemma Allen: that makes sense tho ... good and evil. dark and light

[13:29] Anne Tee Chu: and i do not know if changing fast is good for us

[13:29] Gemma Allen: as in the western philosophy

[13:29] herman Bergson: It was not just a divination tool in the sense that it would predict the future...

[13:29] herman Bergson: it was a counseling tool ...

[13:29] herman Bergson: You have a problem....

[13:29] herman Bergson: you ponder about it...

[13:30] herman Bergson: gather your ideas and conclusions...

[13:30] herman Bergson: then...you consult the Yi Ching...

[13:30] Gemma Allen: ”°º× Ⓔ√ιℓ ׺°”

[13:30] Gemma Allen: i like the yin yang because it is blended together into one light and dark good and

[13:30] Anne Tee Chu: like tarot

[13:30] Gemma Allen: oh gosh

[13:30] Gemma Allen: i am wearing a nice one

[13:30] herman Bergson: The texts are so enigmatic....

[13:30] Loo Zeta-Ah: yes I was thinking tarot

[13:30] herman Bergson: you study them...

[13:31] herman Bergson: the result may be that it brings you new ideas....makes you change your mind...

[13:31] Loo Zeta-Ah: pack of cards randomly mixed you use them to interpret

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:31] Gemma Allen: qwark. is a reader of tarot

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: yes just symbols to meditate over you can say

[13:31] herman Bergson: People do it with the bible too....

[13:31] Gemma Allen: if you ever want it read

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: q is a tarot reader???

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: cool

[13:31] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:31] Gemma Allen: he is

[13:31] herman Bergson: You ponder about a problem

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: did not know that

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: cool

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: wow cool Gemma

[13:32] Gemma Allen: he has a set in sl also

[13:32] Anne Tee Chu: we should book a session with him^^

[13:32] herman Bergson: you pick up the bible and open it at a random page and point at a verse...

[13:32] Gemma Allen: you could

[13:32] Gemma Allen: he has done it

[13:32] Anne Tee Chu: good to know

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: tarot is interesting

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah: Well I don't I read scripture in context

[13:33] herman Bergson: No no...you just read the verse.....and try to combine it or relate it to the problem you are pondering about....

[13:33] Sigmund Oppenbaum: My concern would be that Tarot and random scripture leave little room for objective contemplation

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: well you can :)

[13:34] herman Bergson: Objective contemplation......

[13:34] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Well, I don't know about scripture, it is much more varied than Tarot

[13:34] herman Bergson: What should that be Sigmund?

[13:34] Gemma Allen: well there are many more books in the scripture

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: it seems to be a more associative way of thinking

[13:34] herman Bergson: I mean..where does the objectivity come from?

[13:35] Anne Tee Chu: yes lizzy

[13:35] Gemma Allen: it is more subjective

[13:35] Gemma Allen: tarot is

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes it is Lizzy...

[13:35] Anne Tee Chu: do we have objective?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:35] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Well, Professor, I would say that objective contemplation would be the ability to think precisely without the aid of any superstitious means

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: and have to be placed in historical context.... like this.... where did it come from?

[13:35] herman Bergson: doesn't matter what you read or see...a verse or a tarot card.....it leads to rethinking your situation...with new (strange) input

[13:35] Gemma Allen: but that seems to be subjective tho

[13:36] Anne Tee Chu: why strange input?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Clear Sigmund....ok!

[13:36] Gemma Allen: when you contemplate you almost always become subjective

[13:36] Anne Tee Chu: i guess its what your mind tells you

[13:36] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Indeed, but is said input necessarily helpful when faced with a complicated problem?

[13:36] herman Bergson: I already thought you meant that.....

[13:36] Gemma Allen: that is what i mean

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: normally i would say that real objectivity is impossible

[13:36] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:37] Anne Tee Chu: your subconscious mind

[13:37] herman Bergson: Ok...let's get back to the brain.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: how does it operate...

[13:37] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Perfect objectivity is an ideal, I would say

[13:37] herman Bergson: we have two systems....

[13:38] herman Bergson: one controlled by the prefrontal cortex....and one controlled by the limbic system....to give a rough outline

[13:38] Loo Zeta-Ah: well there is autism that can give people objectivity

[13:38] herman Bergson: the first one we call rationality....the second intuition

[13:39] herman Bergson: 90% of our mental activity is intuitive....

[13:39] herman Bergson: afterwards we think it over

[13:39] herman Bergson: that is your objective contemplation Sigmund...

[13:39] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Indeed

[13:39] Anne Tee Chu: ^^

[13:40] herman Bergson: But as you know...it can get stuck in a circle...

[13:40] herman Bergson: always repeating the same arguments....

[13:40] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Uh-haa

[13:40] Gemma Allen: true why i call it more subjective

[13:40] Sigmund Oppenbaum: That is where the lucky dice comes in

[13:40] Gemma Allen: ,lol

[13:41] herman Bergson: and then such things like tarot or Yi Ching could disrupt that circle reasoning....with new input...

[13:41] Sigmund Oppenbaum: A very random one

[13:41] herman Bergson: but what I mean is only.....that it is a psychological trick...

[13:42] herman Bergson: just to make you look at the problem in another way...

[13:42] Anne Tee Chu: we often need tricks to train our brain

[13:42] Anne Tee Chu: train

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: stimulus

[13:42] Anne Tee Chu: or habits

[13:42] herman Bergson: and I think that thus the Yi Ching was used by the Chinese...

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:42] herman Bergson: Not to predict factual things....

[13:42] Loo Zeta-Ah: Or people place blind faith in them to detriment also

[13:43] herman Bergson: but to make you think it over again with new ideas...

[13:43] Anne Tee Chu: my question is often what factual things are^^^

[13:43] Gemma Allen: very good

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: Like my prediction of the future of this class.....

[13:43] Gemma Allen: and it must work it is very old and still used

[13:43] herman Bergson: in fact it isn't a prediction at all...

[13:44] Anne Tee Chu: mhh.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: I need to lead the troops...period :-)

[13:44] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: and of course :-))

[13:44] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Could it not be argued that such thought-circles could be overcome with patient, logical deliberation instead?

[13:44] Gemma Allen: have been doing that a long time

[13:44] Loo Zeta-AhLoo Zeta-Ah gets out sword to be warrior

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well Sigmund.....yes....but then you are already in Emotional cognitive therapy :-)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Or is it called Cognitive Therapy :-)

[13:46] Gemma Allen: i think that the Chinese philosophers were doing that all these centuries sigmund

[13:46] Gemma Allen: just as the western have

[13:46] Gemma Allen: and here we are

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....they were obsessed by preventing conflicts....and stimulated social stability

[13:47] Loo Zeta-Ah: I wonder if the Chinese have the same mental health issues.... must ask Vidz

[13:47] Gemma Allen: hmmm

[13:47] Gemma Allen: interesting thought

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:47] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Tarot card reading was not ever received into mainstream Western Philosophical thinking, however

[13:47] herman Bergson: They have a different perspective on life...definitely

[13:48] Gemma Allen: no it has not

[13:48] Loo Zeta-Ah whispers: Apparently they are different, mental health is culturally dependant (Vidz Ah from RL)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Sigmund...it isn't philosophy at all neither is the Yi Ching...:-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: I never discussed the Tarot here :-)

[13:49] Anne Tee Chu: you should!

[13:49] Anne Tee Chu: ^^

[13:49] herman Bergson: But the Yo Ching is so interwoven with Chinese thinking and history....

[13:49] Gemma Allen: i don't think he considers it a philosophy

[13:49] herman Bergson: of course not Gemma :-))

[13:49] Anne Tee Chu: i think it is

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ;-)

[13:49] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Okay...

[13:49] herman Bergson: But it is fun...that I admit

[13:49] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is a way of life

[13:49] Sigmund Oppenbaum laughs

[13:50] Gemma Allen: qwak, considers it a tool i think

[13:50] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Okay, I do just want to understand :-)

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: a philosophical tool maybe

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes I could see it as a tool too Gemma....no problem with that

[13:50] herman Bergson: But the problem with fortune telling is...that ...

[13:50] Gemma Allen: he believes in the readings

[13:50] Anne Tee Chu: philosophy is also a tool

[13:50] Anne Tee Chu: to understand life

[13:51] herman Bergson: when you believe in it it makes the world 100% deterministic

[13:51] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:51] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Philosophy is surely not at tool, Anne?

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:51] herman Bergson: which leads to the problem of free will

[13:51] Anne Tee Chu: there is no free will^^

[13:51] Sigmund Oppenbaum: What is the Chinese view on free will?

[13:51] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is a tool to understand

[13:51] herman Bergson: if I can tell your fortune Gemma...what is your say in that...nothing anymore...

[13:52] herman Bergson: you are just a causal machine

[13:52] Gemma Allen: things change

[13:52] Gemma Allen: as soon as you use a tool things can change

[13:52] Anne Tee Chu: things have to change that is life

[13:52] Anne Tee Chu: also thinking has to change

[13:52] herman Bergson: I have to study on that question Sigmund :-)

[13:52] Gemma Allen: good question sigmund

[13:53] Sigmund Oppenbaum: I would be interested to know, Professor. It is a very serious Western preoccupation.

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: Mmmm culturally Chinese are submissive into the greater food

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: *good

[13:53] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Greater food?! LOL!

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hahahaha

[13:53] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:53] Gemma Allen: makes sense

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: ohh my typos tonight I am tired

[13:53] herman Bergson: Chinese restaurants Loo?

[13:53] Gemma Allen: yum

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: loves asian stuff

[13:53] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Ha ha ha ha!

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: mm yum

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yummy

[13:53] herman Bergson: yeah....

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: I love sweet and sour

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes me too...

[13:54] Loo Zeta-Ah: ying and yang in a bowl

[13:54] Gemma Allen: i am into garlic chicken

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: ordering nr 148....

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: lol

[13:54] Vadaman: hihi

[13:54] Anne Tee Chu: ah to much additives in food^^^

[13:54] herman Bergson: Well I guess then I wish you all a nice Chinese meal today :-)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: additives indeed

[13:54] herman Bergson: and thank you for your participation :-)

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: yes nr 621...

[13:54] Vadaman: Thank you so much Herman.

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: ieks

[13:54] Gemma Allen: actually had the veggies yesterday

[13:54] Gemma Allen: stir fried

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:54] Anne Tee Chu: have a lovely evening all

[13:54] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Thank you, Professor!

[13:54] Loo Zeta-Ah: thanks

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:55] Gemma Allen: hope i can make it thursday

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: great as usual

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

479: The Origine of the Yi Ching

When, in the year 221 BCE., the First Emperor (Shih Huang Ti) of the Ch'in dynasty succeeded in consolidating the small kingdoms and dukedoms of feudal China for the first time into one vast empire, 

he took the most drastic measures ever conceived by an absolute monarch to suppress the spirit of liberty which was just about to bloom. 

He would not tolerate a single thought that did not agree with his. He would not countenance scholars and thinkers who dared to assume an independent air and voice their opinions. 

He silenced all criticism by burying his critics alive, and put an end to the discord of beliefs by burning all the books and documents, that were not in sympathy with the new administration (213 BCE.). 

The effects of such radical measures were just what the Emperor desired. He suppressed all independence of thought and reduced the spirit of the nation to a comatose condition, which lasted for a millennium.

This put an end to the the Period of the Hundred Schools of Thought, or as others call it the Ante-Ch'in period, a period where philosophical thinking  was pluriform and creative.

The oldest books extant in China are the Shu Ching, the Five Books, one of which was the Yi Ching, Book of Changes. It plays a dominant role  in the history of Chinese philosophy.

Strictly speaking, the Chinese are not a speculative people like the Greeks or the Hindus. Their interests always centre in moral science, or rather in practical ethics. 

However subtle in their reasoning, and however bold in their imagination, they never lose sight of the practical and moral aspect of things. 

They refuse to be carried up to a heaven where pure ideas only exist. They prefer to be tied down in earthly relations wherever they may go. 

As you know, our Western reasoning follows the rules of logic, the values true and false. But we went further. 

We developed modal logic, in which we analyze the possible in relation to the necessary, or deontic logic, the field of logic that is concerned with obligation, permission, and related concepts.

Chinese thinking never came even close to this way of using the brain. A fascinating question is how this could happen.

The first speculative philosophy ever constructed by Chinese thinkers was a kind of dualism. It is described in the Book of Changes, the Yi Ching.

But it is not a kind of logical dualism like we know. A dualism of True and False, because this assumes an abstract concept of truth, which was not the way Chinese thinkers operate.

Their thinking is metaphorical, literary and poetic. Thence the famous concepts of Yin and Yang stand not for true and false, 

but have completely different meanings, which relate to how Chinese thinkers saw reality, the world, life.

The Yi Ching, however, is probably the most unintelligible, most enigmatic document ever found in Chinese literature.

It was mainly during the Chou Dynasty (c. 1046 - 256 BCE) that great thinkers focused on the interpretation of the Yi Ching.

It was in this aera, that two antagonistic currents of thought manifested themselves at an early date in the history of Chinese philosophy, and run throughout its entire course. 

One is represented by the "Yi Ching" and Confucius (551-479 BCE.). The other by Lao-tze.

The former advocated a dualism, and showed agnostic, positivistic, and practical tendencies; while the latter was monistic, mystical, and transcendental.

The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

[13:28] herman Bergson: And for your information Merlin...

[13:28] Debbie DJ: Thanks Herman.

[13:28] herman Bergson: next lecture(s) will deal with the Yi Ching in detail

[13:28] Merlin: Yes, the I Ching definitely has a practical side

[13:29] Debbie DJ: Herman does the Yi Ching pre date 221BCE?

[13:29] Merlin: Ooh, well perhaps I should come to those then

[13:29] herman Bergson: The thing is....

[13:29] herman Bergson: the original texts may date back to 2400BCE....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: old stuff then

[13:30] Debbie DJ: 4600 years old?

[13:30] Merlin: I have also noticed that traditional Chinese thinking is very different from ours

[13:30] herman Bergson: a thousand or more years later the Chinese themselves actually didn't know what the texts really meant

[13:30] herman Bergson: It certainly is Merlin

[13:30] Merlin: There was a time when all the books were burnt, and I think the I Ching survived it

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...probably that old :-)

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes that was in 221 BCE

[13:31] herman Bergson: as I just told :-)

[13:31] Merlin: In those days when books were burnt they were totally eliminated, not as it would be now, with copies everywhere

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: so lots of old history lost

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: what a shame

[13:32] herman Bergson: that indeed...but the Shu Ching survived...

[13:32] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:32] Debbie DJ: The cloud is risky for long term interpretation...

[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess that that book burning Emperor yet had some respect for those

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: its a bit same thing today when they censor the internet and prevent free speech and all about human rights and so

[13:32] Merlin: well it was more recent than I thought if only around the time of Pythagoras

[13:33] Merlin: hehehe

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes indeed...

[13:33] Merlin: Sees signs of digression creeping in

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Maybe social cohesion is more important than high technology ?

[13:34] herman Bergson: For some reason the Yi Ching was considered a kind of holy book....which not even an emperor dared to burn

[13:34] Merlin: Oh, I didnt know why

[13:34] Merlin: or had forgotten

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] herman Bergson: and the thing is....the book is so enigmatic that you can interpret it any way you like

[13:36] Debbie DJ: I wonder what thought processes brought it into being? Its like a sudoku puzzle in a way

[13:36] herman Bergson: So the First Emperor (Shih Huang Ti) of the Ch'in dynasty could always be pleased with a pleasing interpretation :-)

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes debbie.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: and another thing is....

[13:36] herman Bergson: it has a kind of mathematical structure with its 64 diagrams....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Pythagoras would have loved it....

[13:37] Debbie DJ: exactly

[13:37] Merlin: I have certainly noticed the translations vary a lot

[13:37] Debbie DJ: and it appeared so early?

[13:37] herman Bergson: The Chinese didn't do anything with that feature

[13:37] herman Bergson: I don't think the origins are really known Debbie

[13:38] herman Bergson: There are a number of ..sort of mythological stories about it...

[13:38] Merlin: Well I see it in common with the Tarot as being a kind of map of all possible states of being

[13:38] Debbie DJ: The Chinese used the feature to give people a guide.... random guide.

[13:38] herman Bergson: but they are not historical

[13:39] Merlin: I think the I Ching has some very good points but some of the inner reasoning is bizarre....

[13:39] Merlin: and rather like astrology

[13:39] herman Bergson: it is kind of similar like the origine of the old testament...

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Its a social device i think.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes something like that Debbie....

[13:40] Merlin: Yes I suppose they both go back about the same amount of time ... since early writing was possible I suppose

[13:40] herman Bergson: s our popular knowledge believes it is a book of divination

[13:40] Debbie DJ: When did the old testament appear?

[13:41] herman Bergson: But that is not really the case...

[13:41] herman Bergson: The Old Testament is a collection of many many old hebrew texts....

[13:41] MerlinMerlin listens

[13:42] herman Bergson: Like the Yi Ching is too....

[13:42] Merlin: Oh I thought you were going to say more about divination

[13:42] Merlin: and why the I C is not for that

[13:42] herman Bergson: The y way the Chinese saw the divination power of the Yi Ching was more as a kind of support....

[13:43] Merlin: Well you can use almost anything for divination but.....

[13:43] herman Bergson: When they took important decisions they used the Yi Ching to show whether it would turn out good or bad...

[13:43] Merlin: the good thing about the I Ching is that it is constructive

[13:44] herman Bergson: It was not really meant to predict future events

[13:44] Debbie DJ: Yes. and prompts action.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:44] Merlin: It tells what to do in a given situation

[13:44] herman Bergson: It was a counseling device....

[13:44] Merlin: Not just tells what that situation is, like say the tarot

[13:45] herman Bergson: It tells what to do in a situation when you are already in that situation and ponder about how to act

[13:45] herman Bergson: I would say

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Thats how it was used in my youth.

[13:45] Merlin: I think it tells what to do in any situation

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Persuading people that their decisions are ok.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...next lecture(s) we'll elaborate on this subject in much more detail...

[13:46] herman Bergson: Something like that Debbie

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:46] Merlin: For example from memory. Oppression.... Stake your life on carrying out your will

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your interest..^_^

[13:47] Merlin: TY to you too Herman

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Fascinating. I know so little about this topic.

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm this can be an eye opener indeed

[13:47] Merlin: well I am glad you see that a reason to be interested Deb

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon again all

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:47] Debbie DJ: bye bejita

478: First steps into Chinese Philosophy

The more you study on the subject, the more fascinating it becomes: Chinese philosophy. I hardly had a look at it formerly.

Of course I have read my classics like Plato, Aristotle, Cusanus, Descartes. Locke, Hume and many others. But among them wasn't a single Chinese philosopher.

So, for this project I have to rely on literature, my own common sense and some understanding of history.

When you think of Chinese philosophy, you probably first think of Maoism and communism. Maybe some of you also have heard about Confucius. But that would be it.

Looking at the history of Western philosophy we see a continuous debate with time and again new insights and arguments, century after century.

Chinese philosophy has passed through four periods: the ancient period (until 221 BCE), when the so-called Hundred Schools contended; 

the middle period (221 BCE–960 CE), when Confucianism emerged supreme in the social and political spheres, only to be overshadowed in philosophy first by Neo-Daoism and then by Buddhism; 

the modern period (960–1900), when Neo-Confucianism was the uncontested philosophy, although by no means without variety or conflicts of its own; 

and the contemporary period (from 1912), when Neo-Confucianism, having become decadent and being challenged by Western philosophy, first succumbed to it, then was revived and reconstructed, but at mid century was overwhelmed by Marxism.

Isn't it amazing? A period of more than 900 years dominated by what is called neo-Confucianism, one single philosophy. In that same period Europe went from the "Dark" Middle Ages to the Industrial Revolution.

The dramatic contrast between Chinese and Western modes of philosophic thinking may be illustrated by the fact that the tendency of European philosophers to seek out the being of things, 

the essential reality lying behind appearances, would meet with little sympathy among Chinese thinkers, 

whose principal interests lie in the establishment and cultivation of harmonious relationships within their social ambiance. 

Contrasted with Anglo-European philosophic traditions, the thinking of the Chinese is far more concrete, this-worldly and, above all, practical.

Western thinking was cosmogonic and cosmological oriented. That means, we occupied ourselves with the question of creation, where does the earth and mankind come from?

You already find examples of that in Judaic and Hebrew texts. Plato gives in his dialog Timaeus a complete description of the origin of the cosmos and man.

Such myths  played hardly any role in early Chinese thinking. It was not focused  upon issues of cosmic order but upon more mundane questions of how to achieve communal harmony.

The relative unimportance of cosmogonic myths in China helps to account for the dramatically different intellectual contexts from which the Chinese and Western cultural sensibilities emerged.

In Western philosophy logic and logical reasoning have priority, while Chinese thinking is less formal and prefers to use analogy and more literary ways of formulating ideas.

Chinese thinking is largely indifferent to what we love so much: abstract analyses that seek to maintain an objective perspective.

The disinterest in dispassionate speculations upon the nature of things, and a passionate commitment to the goal of social harmony was dominant throughout most of Chinese history.

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

An Introduction to Chinese Philosophy - Karyn L. Lai, Oxford 2008

Chinese Philosophy, P. Carus, 1902

A Brief History of chinese Philosophy. D.T. Suzuki, 1914

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

[13:21] herman Bergson winks at CONNIE

[13:21] Debbie DJ: Hi Connie

[13:21] CONNIE Eichel smiles at professor

[13:21] CONNIE Eichel: hi deb :)

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - hello connie

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-))

[13:21] CONNIE Eichel: oh, hi ciska :)

[13:22] Loo Zeta-Ah: thanks..... I guess my little bit of knowledge comes from the healing arts and chi

[13:22] Sigmund Oppenbaum: So, does Chinese philosophy not concern itself at all with questions of the meaning of life or origin?

[13:22] herman Bergson: That is the amazing thing Sigmund.....

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: that can be correct that we seek more concrete things like science and so while the Chinese are more abstract and spiritual directed

[13:22] Debbie DJ: Herman, the Chinese philosophy is quite "ethical" - more about making the community a great place to be...

[13:22] herman Bergson: No Bejiita.....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and focus on harmony and things like that

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: take feng shui for ex

[13:23] herman Bergson: they arent that spiritual at all....

[13:23] herman Bergson: at least not in their philosophy...

[13:23] herman Bergson: It goes deeper....

[13:23] Debbie DJ: Its about balance, give and take, good and bad.

[13:23] Sigmund Oppenbaum: It would seem, by comparison, that Western Philosophy is far more concerned with God

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: is it because past and future are not important?

[13:23] herman Bergson: In our western thinking all begins with Chaos in which order is created....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yin yang and such things play an important role i guess

[13:24] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Good question, Ciska

[13:24] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: balance

[13:24] Loo Zeta-Ah: Ying and Yang

[13:24] herman Bergson: We have this Chaos - Order opposition....

[13:24] Debbie DJ: They didn't have a judgmental personal god, who could be called on in times of war....

[13:25] herman Bergson: we make up a story how order came to chaos...which we now would call science....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:25] herman Bergson: The Chinese have a completely different starting point....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: seems so indeed

[13:25] Loo Zeta-Ah: 'energy'

[13:25] herman Bergson: there is no Chaos for them....but only Change....

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Awareness of this moment....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: Their most important book through history therefore is..."The book of Change",

[13:26] herman Bergson: the Yijing or I-Tjing....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: the change towards ultimate balance and peacefulness

[13:27] herman Bergson: And indeed Debbie...they don't have a personalized god

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:27] Sigmund Oppenbaum: It is of course difficult to place oneself outside of one's own philosophical Weltanschauung, but, to me, the question of 'why we are here' seems like a very universally human one to ask. And a most important one.

[13:27] Debbie DJ: The book of changes is the I Ching :)

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: The zen buddhistic sight on that would be - we are - thats enough

[13:28] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Sorry for the long question/statement

[13:28] herman Bergson: Maybe because their starting point was the belief in Change explains why they never searched for laws of nature....unchangeble and unchanging rules

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Sigmund...it seems so.....but not in Chinese philosophy....

[13:29] herman Bergson: It is asking for an absolute.....

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: wasn't their starting point just in observing?

[13:29] herman Bergson: Chinese thinking wasn't focused on absolutes it seems

[13:29] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Where was our starting point then, Ciska?

[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...they identify 5 elements....

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: they observe inside - we tend to observe outside

[13:30] herman Bergson: Not for, for instance...

[13:30] herman Bergson: because four is two and two.....static....

[13:30] herman Bergson: you never can divide 5 equally

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:31] herman Bergson: To some extend you are right Ciska...

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: math is absolute and the language of the natures laws

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: Chinese don't seek that i guess

[13:31] herman Bergson: But a lot of Chinese thinking is about social order....and to be a good citizen....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: its more sort of floating

[13:32] herman Bergson: and yes....a virtuous person....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: I must say...

[13:32] herman Bergson: a complete different approach....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: very

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: different

[13:33] herman Bergson: Does anyone of you know the Yijing or I-Tjing?

[13:33] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Chinese culture places great importance on honor when it comes to morality, does it not?

[13:33] Sigmund Oppenbaum: I do not

[13:33] Debbie DJ: I have read bits of it some years ago.

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: i have the book of I-Tjing

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: of

[13:33] herman Bergson: It is popular here as a book for divination...

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:34] Debbie DJ: I used to have I Ching cards too.

[13:34] herman Bergson: And to you Sigmund....honor...I would use the word 'respect'

[13:34] herman Bergson: respect for the ancestors

[13:34] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Uh-ha

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is , I believe , the oldest known Chinese text...

[13:35] Debbie DJ: African culture is also big on respect for others and ancestors.

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes...and the point is....you do not question your ancestors....

[13:36] herman Bergson: They were right .....

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: even when they were wrong..

[13:36] Debbie DJ: Western culture places much higher importance on individuality, and we repect the rich ;)

[13:36] herman Bergson: A bit similar like some people here use the bible....you don't question it...what is written there is right

[13:36] Debbie DJ: or the dollar.... god help us

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: Fromm would have said: westerns are focussing on having - easterns on being

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thats how it is in the us, their weapon laws are based on some guys lived for several 100 years ago when there was no of the weapons there are today, thats why everyone mean they must have weapons even when children shoot each other by mistake and so

[13:37] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Well, that is not completely true, Professor. The Bible has been questioned and Theology is a very established field of Academia

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but US is different

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but they swear by those guys

[13:38] herman Bergson: indeed Sigmund, therefor I said "some people" :-))

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] .: Beertje :.: [13:37] Ciska Riverstone: Fromm would have said: westerns are focussing on having - easterns on being is this still true?...now China is growing?

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed china is a mass production state too now

[13:39] herman Bergson: I am thinking about that Ciska....

[13:39] Sigmund Oppenbaum: The Westerner questions and wants to know 'why'. Look at any small child, they always ask 'why'. Does the Far East Asian not ask this?

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: well we are talking of the origins right now Beertje right?

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: now china is doing it the other way round too - of course ;)

[13:40] herman Bergson: This 'being' for Chinese is mainly....socially being....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: but now the cultural basics moved on as well

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:40] herman Bergson: being a good citizen....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: being in the sense of being creative

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: being there

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: being there for others

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: being

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: not having

[13:40] herman Bergson: being there for others is ok.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: I guess that will fit Chinese thinking..

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes thats good things

[13:41] herman Bergson: But they are not so much interested in an existential way of thinking about being

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: they just are

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: sort of

[13:42] Debbie DJ: It seems we have a lot to learn by looking at eastern philosophy - it helps us to understand that there are other ways.

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:42] herman Bergson: I wonder Debbie....

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes other ways...

[13:43] Sigmund Oppenbaum: I fear we will find little application for their view... I wonder

[13:43] herman Bergson: but "other" in which sense.....

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: i guess you underestimate that Sigmund

[13:43] herman Bergson: That is what we will investigate during this project indeed Sigmund

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: this will be awesome

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: thank you Bejiita :-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Welcome to the new world of Chinese thinking...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...

[13:44] Debbie DJ: Other in the way we interpret a random chaotic life in a random universe.

[13:44] Sigmund Oppenbaum: It certainly is intriguing

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: interesting to look at things from different ways

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the more different the better

[13:45] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Yes, that it is, Bejita

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Yeah. Thanks Herman. Its good to watch you growing your horizons.

[13:45] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Thank you, Professor

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

477: Non Western Philosophy - an introduction

This project puts me in a very difficult position. Those of you who have attended a number of my lectures may have some idea about my personal philosophical position.

To be honest, and some of you certainly will suspect it, I run the risk of suffering of ethnocentrism in philosophy ("male, white, European"),

because already my first project was about 100 philosophers. Almost all male, white and European, except two female philosophers and three or four American philosophers.

Besides that, you may accuse me of using a rather restricted definition of "philosophy" with emphasis on epistemology, logic and rationality.

You can hardly blame me for that. The emphasis on logical argumentation and epistemology reached its zenith only recently, 

with the logical positivists in the 1930s, when virtually every kind of metaphysics was dismissed as technically "meaningless."

At the university I was educated in that tradition or to be more accurate, I had chosen for that tradition based on the conviction that THAT was the real philosophy.

Of course there are people who fundamentally disagree with that point of view. In the first place by saying that there even does not exist something like "Western" philosophy.

To begin the history of "Western" philosophy with Thales of Milete (600 BC) is in fact already a mistake. On the one hand, he didn't live in Europe,

and on the other hand it is evident that Greek thinking was at least  influenced by philosophical ideas from Asia Minor, the Orient and India.

Recently one of you remarked "Eastern philosophy? You? But isn't that a lot of theology?" A good observation, which shows even more that I am in a difficult position philosophically.

This all may sound a little like "Don't do it…don't start this project!", but on the other hand it is an interesting challenge to put all my (and your, perhaps) biases to the test.

Besides, the distinction between philosophy and theology is typical for us. We can suspend that distinction and just talk about Eastern thinking.

It makes little sense to look down from great height on non Western philosophies and say "Hey, look there, that indian philosopher had the same ideas as David Hume." or things like that.

We may encounter similarities of course, but in the first place we must look at other philosophies on their own account as manifestations of other cultures.

This leads to an other difficulty. There is no objective standard to qualify this as true philosophy and that not. But yet you can not escape the fact that you have to take position.

Choices have to be made. Ideas have to be evaluated, otherwise we are running the risk of cultural relativism by saying that any philosophy is as good as any other…

As you see, and I don't know how you think about it, there are a number of hurdles to take and we need an open mind for this project.

Finally there is the question of "what exactly is meant by non Western philosophy?" Of course everybody immediately thinks of Chinese and Indian philosophy.

They certainly will be a major part of this project, but what about South America, Africa or the Arab world? Interesting question.

It will take some research, but I'll try to include as many non European, non Anglo-American philosophies as possible.

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: So much for my introduction :-)

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you

[13:18] Gemma Allen: well it will be something new for you to research

[13:18] Debbie DJ: Tat was the warning label on the front cover?

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: what about Australian natives? the aboriginals?

[13:19] herman Bergson smiles

[13:19] herman Bergson: More ore less..yes

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: they have a very ancient culture..there must be philosophers too

[13:19] Debbie DJ: Ok. Im still in, it will be fascinating to explore.

[13:19] herman Bergson: I think it is very difficult for me/us to really understand Eastern philosophy...

[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes it is Debbie....

[13:20] herman Bergson: The reading I am already doing promises that

[13:20] herman Bergson: At the moment I focus on Chinese thought....

[13:20] Lizzy Pleides: did I understand right that the distinction between philosophy and religion is only in the western area?

[13:20] Debbie DJ: The african philosophies are interesting for me too, obviously

[13:20] Gemma Allen: maybe we can help with the research too

[13:21] Debbie DJ: oh good question liz

[13:21] Gemma Allen: and send you some links

[13:21] herman Bergson: Sure Gemma...

[13:21] herman Bergson: To answer Lizzy....

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: this will be nice it feels like, and very exciting

[13:21] herman Bergson: that strict distinction between religion and ...say..scientific....epistemological thinking....

[13:22] herman Bergson: yes I think we invented that

[13:22] herman Bergson: You don't see that in Chinese thinking....

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: religion is always a kind of mythology too

[13:22] .: Beertje :.: whispers..hello Rodney

[13:22] herman Bergson: There is a moment in history where you see it in Indian philosophy

[13:23] Rodney Handrick: Hi Beertje

[13:23] herman Bergson: an absolute denial of any theistic explanation of reality

[13:24] Debbie DJ: Are there any Chinese religions

[13:24] Debbie DJ: ?

[13:24] Taffy: western philosophy tends to think of god as a separate entity

[13:24] herman Bergson: that is hard to say.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: I mean...they had some idea of Heaven.....

[13:24] Debbie DJ: Buddhism isn't really a religion at all

[13:24] herman Bergson: even of a god....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: need to check the subject up a bit for sure

[13:25] herman Bergson: but not really a personalized god....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: i know a bit but its clearly different from our "ways"

[13:25] Gemma Allen: one can be any religion and also follow buddhism

[13:25] Taffy: from what I understand the eastern philosophies, people are part of the whole that is god

[13:25] Gemma Allen: as a way of life

[13:25] herman Bergson: This led to serious debates around 1650 between Rome and Jesuit missionaries in China...

[13:25] herman Bergson: What Chinese word to use for God?

[13:26] Debbie DJ: And indian religions are more about nature worship, and multiple gods

[13:26] herman Bergson: then that became even a competition between Jesuits and Dominicans in thosse days

[13:26] Debbie DJ: did they find a word for god herman

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: the word avatar comes from how their gods show themselves to us, like the shiva and other statues u see

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes the poe finally took sides with the Dominicans :-)

[13:27] Merlin: We seem to be drifting onto religion again I think it is inseparable from philosophy

[13:27] Sigmund Oppenbaum: I'm not quite following, what became an issue for the Jesuits and the Dominicans?

[13:27] Gemma Allen: what did the dominicans say

[13:28] Debbie DJ: the word, and the word is god Sigmund

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...in Eastern philosophy you can not separate it

[13:28] Merlin: But I found some things said here about Buddhism doubtful

[13:28] Merlin: Ah ok

[13:28] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Thank you, Debbie

[13:28] herman Bergson: it was the word Shang Shi Sigmund.....

[13:29] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Thanks, Professor

[13:29] herman Bergson: But the Chinese used that for Heaven....not really meaning a personalized god...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:29] herman Bergson: so you can not use that when translating the bible...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Rome finally settled for some other word....

[13:30] herman Bergson: which atm I do not recall :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: The problem was that Chinese didn't like christianity at all....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Mainly because of the disrespect it showed for ancient Chinese tradition

[13:31] herman Bergson: and THAT is important to them....

[13:31] Merlin: when do you mean Herman?

[13:31] herman Bergson: You'll learn about that in on coming lectures :-)

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ancestors?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Oh I am talking about 1650 and later Merlin

[13:32] Merlin: When did the Chinese take a dislike to Christianity

[13:32] Merlin: ok ty

[13:32] herman Bergson: But there was the Ping revolution...1800 so or so I believe...

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Shangdi - means above emperor, and was used before Shung Tian (heaven)

[13:33] herman Bergson: and one western observer didn't believe that it were chinese christians here revolting...

[13:33] herman Bergson: wow...your Chinese is pretty good Debbie ^_^

[13:33] Debbie DJ: thanks prof (quitly closes google)

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes...the transcription of Chinese Kanji in Romanji will be a puzzle now and then

[13:34] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:34] herman Bergson: the English do it different from the Dutch for instance....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahahahah

[13:35] herman Bergson: You get things like Lao-tze....or Laothze..or Lao-ze..

[13:35] herman Bergson: all meaning the same...

[13:35] herman Bergson: But we'll manage that I guess...

[13:36] herman Bergson: for instansce...

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: Shang-Chi (Chinese: 上氣; pinyin: shàng qì; literally "rising of the spirit")

[13:36] herman Bergson: I-Tjing....also know as Yin King...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:36] Merlin: Yes it is largely because they have a different alphabet

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is the problem Merlin..they have no alphabet

[13:36] Merlin: Confuscius is something like Kung Fu Tsu

[13:37] herman Bergson: they have Kanji (characters) and its pronunciation

[13:37] Merlin: oh well you could say that yeah

[13:37] herman Bergson: ah jes...

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes

[13:37] Gemma Allen: they are characters

[13:37] Gemma Allen: thousands of them

[13:37] herman Bergson: to be precize Gemma....

[13:38] herman Bergson: a japanese primary schoolkid learns 1845 Kanji

[13:38] herman Bergson: and of course also all kinds of combinations of these 1845

[13:38] herman Bergson: enough to read the newspaper...

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: 四十四只石狮子是死的 ?

[13:39] herman Bergson: but there are at least a 30 to 40 thousand Kanji

[13:39] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Very inefficient

[13:39] herman Bergson: Lizzy...

[13:39] herman Bergson: your sentence begins with 4 10 4 :-)

[13:39] .: Beertje :.: they are all dead Lizzy?

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: no with 44

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: yes Beertje

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: omg

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: poor lions

[13:40] herman Bergson: true :-))

[13:40] herman Bergson: anyway....

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: it seems i have to learn Chinese

[13:40] herman Bergson: I think that htis is going to be an interesting journey

[13:40] Gemma Allen: forget it

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: I only know ni how

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: and 148 :)))))

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: indeed very interesting

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ni hao u mean?

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: (my favorite meal)

[13:41] herman Bergson: my goodness...

[13:42] herman Bergson: everybody starts showing of their Chinese :-))

[13:42] Gemma Allen: not me

[13:42] .: Beertje :.: grins

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehee¨

[13:43] herman Bergson: ok then...

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: 赫尔曼是不是太糟糕，有更

[13:43] herman Bergson: You know what to expect....

[13:43] herman Bergson: next lecture will be delivered by Beertje in Chinese :-))

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: what an exciting theme

[13:43] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:43] herman Bergson: seems she is fluent in it :-))

[13:44] herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation....

[13:44] Gemma Allen: well it is something to look forward to it all

[13:44] herman Bergson: unless there is still an unanswered question ?

[13:44] Debbie DJ: 六十六 - lets sit around the lecture and talk :)

[13:45] Debbie DJ: you can use your imagination to translate...

[13:45] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:45] herman Bergson: ok Debbie....after class :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Professor

[13:45] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Thank you, Professor

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: 感謝教訓赫爾曼

[13:45] Gemma Allen: i may be able to be here tuesday next week

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Thanks Herman...

[13:45] Gemma Allen: we will see

[13:45] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:45] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:45] Sigmund Oppenbaum: This is going to be interesting... a challenge

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:45] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Good bye all

[13:45] herman Bergson: I'll keep my fingers crossed Gemma

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: bye bye all

[13:46] Merlin: Bye everyone

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: bye cu soon

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Bye merlin.

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: byee

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight all

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Nice turnout Herman. Clearly a popular topic

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Bye bbertje

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:47] herman Bergson: I hope so Debbie :-)

[13:47] Taffy: yes I'm going now to look for my books on Chinese philosophy!

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Me too taffy...

[13:47] Debbie DJ: see you all next week.

[13:47] herman Bergson: ok Debbie

[13:47] Debbie DJ: btw herman - when is the summer recess?

[13:47] herman Bergson: July 1 Debbie

[13:47] herman Bergson: till September 1

[13:48] Debbie DJ: Much too long :)

[13:48] Debbie DJ: thanks.... you are brave taking this on...

[13:48] herman Bergson: I know..

[13:48] herman Bergson: I'll miss you ^_^

[13:48] Debbie DJ: :)

[13:48] Debbie DJ: Ill be around :)

[13:48] herman Bergson: and I can say hello now and then :-))

[13:49] Debbie DJ: And likewise me...

[13:49] herman Bergson: the funny thing is.....

[13:49] Debbie DJ: ok... cu soon, and have a great weekend

[13:49] herman Bergson: I am retired in RL...as you know...

[13:49] Debbie DJ: yes?

[13:49] herman Bergson: and yet it feels as vacation to me..those months :-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: oh...you didnt know?

[13:50] Debbie DJ: Old habits die very hard. I was an academic for 11 years.

[13:50] herman Bergson: I for 30 years :-)

[13:50] Debbie DJ: What a good life.

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes :-)

[13:51] herman Bergson: and my class here in SL still gives me the feeling that I am in the old routine :-)

[13:51] Debbie DJ: Well, you are. You get to work some, learn some, stretch your brain, and hangout with the bright students...

[13:51] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:51] herman Bergson: indeed :-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: and always beautiful students too :-)

[13:52] Debbie DJ: You need a canteen at Wainscot - !!!!

[13:53] herman Bergson: No.....

[13:53] Debbie DJ: for endless cups of coffee and chats

[13:53] Debbie DJ: and a postgrad pub...

[13:53] herman Bergson: I like it quite here :-)

[13:54] Debbie DJ: I'm just Just reminiscing. - wouldn't really expect one

[13:54] Debbie DJ: Ok Professor - i must dash... I'm summoned :)

[13:55] herman Bergson: oh dear :-)

[13:55] Debbie DJ: byeeee.

[13:55] Debbie DJ: xxx

[13:55] herman Bergson: take care :-)