498: Buddhism (intro)

In the year 480 B.C. a small force of 300 Spartans, 400 Thebans and 700 men from Boeotian Thespiae fought against the Persians at the Battle of Thermopylae.

The Greco-Persian Wars (499–449 BC) and the Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC) cover the lifetime of  the historical Buddha, also known as Gotama Buddha, Siddhārtha Gautama, and Buddha Śākyamuni (c. 480 BC - c. 400 BC).

Philosophically we encounter Greek philosophers like Empedocles, Anaxagoras and Democritus. All members of the so-called Presocratics.

Buddhism derives its name from the Sanskrit word buddha (awakened, wise, or learned), which was one of the many epithets given to Siddhartha Gautama

He was born in Lumbini, in the Nepalese region of Terai, near the Indian border. He is one of the most important Asian thinkers and spiritual masters of all time, 

and he contributed to many areas of philosophy, including epistemology, metaphysics and ethics. 

The Buddha’s teaching formed the foundation for Buddhist philosophy, initially developed in South Asia, then later in the rest of Asia. Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy now have a global following.

Soon after his death, his disciples met and repeated all they could remember being taught by him, and these recollections were committed to memory.

All the rules he had set down for the community of his disciples were collectively known as the VINAYA. 

The collections of his other teachings on good character, contemplative exercises, and the theory behind them were known collectively as SUTRAS . 

The vinaya and sutras supposedly collected shortly after Gautama’s death became a closed canon for some Buddhists; other Buddhists eventually accepted as canonical a large corpus of other literature.

You may call it coincidence, but the same happened after the death of Jesus. The first gospel written was dated about 70 years after his death.

Then there seem to have existed quite a number of gospel like scriptures. We know about  apocryphal gospels, non-canonical gospels, Jewish-Christian gospels, and gnostic gospels.

Only from the 4th century, there existed unanimity in the West concerning the New Testament canon  as it is today.

What fascinates me in these matters is, that we time and again see the same pattern. A wise man (not a woman) appears on stage.

He appears to be rather influential with his teachings in his time. Then after his death a lot  of his teaching including all kinds of ideas added by others are committed to "paper". The same happened with Confucianism.

The thoughts and teachings survive centuries. People hold on to them. Uses them to organize their lives.

Then only a 350 years or so ago there develops a new way of thinking about life, or at least about certain areas of life. This way of thinking was called scientific thinking.

In the Western world we witness a battle between this new way of thinking about life  and the old ways, where the old ways of thinking loose ground in a sustained way.

This is an ongoing process, where the West began with men like Galileo Galilei, Kepler and Newton, Darwin and Freud.

We see it happen today in Chinese culture, as I pointed out in a previous lecture. We see it happen in certain parts of the Islamic world, where some convulsively cling to old thinking.

Most important to understand this picture is, that you don't think in terms of your own lifespan only. Think in periods of centuries.

These are processes in the evolution of mankind and in our time we are in the midst of a huge turmoil, where it is hard to imagine where it all will lead us.

How to position Buddhism in this ongoing process will be our fascination for the next lectures to come.

The Discussion

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[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you... :-))

[13:28] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:28] Daruma Boa: ↑☆↛☀─Ⓖяєαşє─☼↚★↑

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:28] Nectanebus claps

[13:28] Gemma Allen: i am looking forward to that

[13:28] Corronach: Thanks herman

[13:28] Nectanebus: Interesting comparison 'twixt the canons there

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes that will be interesting

[13:28] Dagg: very interesting points herman

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: Thak you Dagg

[13:29] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Daruma Resident donated L$60. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:29] oola Neruda: Buddha spoke of a way of living...etc... but i also see a Buddhism that has many many "gods".... can you tell what happened there?

[13:29] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: There are a number of lectures tocome oola...

[13:29] Nectanebus: Symbolism mainly

[13:29] herman Bergson: and indeed....

[13:29] herman Bergson: do gods belong to realbuddhist philosophy...

[13:30] herman Bergson: we'll investigate that subject of course

[13:30] Gemma Allen: i am not sure they do

[13:30] Dagg: I didnt think so

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: no, buddhism is different

[13:30] Gemma Allen: iam sorrry to leave have ot return to the playa

[13:30] herman Bergson: I neither do see gods in buddhism....

[13:30] Gemma Allen: hope you all get a chance to visit burn2

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: they dont define a god like in other religions

[13:30] Dagg: bye Gemma

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: cu gemma

[13:31] Nectanebus: bye Gem

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: going to burn a while after this too

[13:31] herman Bergson: ok Gemma....you are excused :-))

[13:31] Daruma Boa: bye gemma

[13:31] herman Bergson: Teh only "god" so far I see in buddhism is the self

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: buddhism pictures the founder of it (Sidharta) and not a supernatural being

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: (god)

[13:32] herman Bergson: What gods were you thinking of oola?

[13:33] oola Neruda: i don't really know their names but they are in all kinds of oriental art labled as buddhist

[13:33] Daruma Boa: the "self" is the only solution. and should ber the main point in every religion.

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: thats why i think buddhism is my fav religion

[13:33] herman Bergson: aren't you confusing buddhism and hinduism oola?

[13:33] oola Neruda: no

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: its only good stuff in it

[13:33] herman Bergson: Hinduism has dozens of gods

[13:33] oola Neruda: i was just going to say...that i wasn't confusing it

[13:33] Nectanebus: Thousands, possibly

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes they have so many i cant count theml lol

[13:34] oola Neruda: it is buddhist

[13:34] Nectanebus: It depends on term usage. Mahakala can look rather God like if one doesn't undestand what the noose is about, et cetera

[13:34] herman Bergson: We'll keep an open eye for this issue oola....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: the word avatar btw comes from the hinduism picturing of their gods

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: its how they manifest themself to us

[13:34] Nectanebus: truth, Bejita

[13:34] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita :-)

[13:34] herman Bergson: so we are all gods here :-))

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: in the same way our avatar is a digital representation of our rl self here

[13:35] Nectanebus: Lawnmower Man time

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: thats why its called avatara, its the same concept

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: only digital

[13:35] herman Bergson: Let's stick to buddhism first :-))

[13:35] Daruma Boa: we are!^^

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:36] Dagg: thats already tricky , its a - ism

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...my point today was that there seems to be a pattern in human mind evolution

[13:37] herman Bergson: in different cultures we see the same pattern

[13:37] Dagg: yes I agree herman, my question is , was it guided or was it a natural eveolutionary proces ?

[13:37] Nectanebus: being what, exactly? For once I don't follow

[13:38] herman Bergson: and the remarkeble thing is that all those traditions are kind of disintegrated by the development of sience

[13:38] herman Bergson: If you remember my previous lecture Dagg, then you would see that my answer is that it is a natural evolutionary process...

[13:39] herman Bergson: It is howour brain is wired....

[13:39] herman Bergson: when you see two things happen...one after the other...

[13:39] herman Bergson: and you wonder...how can that be...

[13:39] herman Bergson: you immedialtely apply causality to it...

[13:39] herman Bergson: A causes B.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: But now we have a name for that error.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: the post hoc proter hoc error...

[13:40] herman Bergson: propter

[13:40] oola Neruda: a need arises and is responded to... but then the culture "evolves" so the response needs to be revisited

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:40] herman Bergson: inmany cases there is causality indeed...but not in all cases...

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes oola....but the primary need we feel is to explain what happened....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: indeed, those 2 events maybee are not related at all only folowing each other

[13:41] oola Neruda: yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: that is how our brain even has to work if we want tosurvive...

[13:42] herman Bergson: One important aspect here is our consciousness of time

[13:42] herman Bergson: some animals seem to have some kind of memory over time....

[13:43] herman Bergson: we we have it 100%....

[13:43] herman Bergson: that is special...

[13:43] herman Bergson: we remember past event and present event and can deduce future events...

[13:44] herman Bergson: In the past a serious disease was a punishment of God because of our sinful way of living...

[13:44] herman Bergson: now we go to the doctor eand get some medicine and recover

[13:44] NectanebusNectanebus is remembered of the processional in the seventh seal

[13:44] Nectanebus: And depends on the disease and the society

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes we understand much better today

[13:44] Nectanebus: let us not forget chinese medicine

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: at least most of us

[13:45] herman Bergson: Maybe chinese medicine is a bit overestimated .....

[13:46] Nectanebus: ?

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...this is the perspective fromwhich I want to study buddhism....

[13:47] oola Neruda: i recently attended a kind of play that is comic and comes between Noh plays... the plot centered around a japanese doctor and the thunder god who was afraid of accupuncture

[13:47] oola Neruda: well i thought it was funny

[13:47] herman Bergson: So that god was stuck with a heavy headache, I guess :-))

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hehe its sounds so for sure

[13:48] oola Neruda: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: Are there any questions left unanswered or remakrs not heard?

[13:49] oola Neruda: where did all those buddhist gods come from...

[13:49] NectanebusNectanebus chuckles

[13:49] herman Bergson: As I hear no remark, I guess it is good to thank you again for your participation and interest :-)

[13:49] herman Bergson: we'll look into that oola :-))

[13:50] Dagg: thank you :)

[13:50] oola Neruda: ty

[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:50] Dagg: see you all

[13:50] herman Bergson: or regard it as your homework to find out, oola ^_^

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] Mikki Louise: ty professor, bye all

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bye Mikki:-))

[13:50] Corronach: thanks herman

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: this gets more and more interesting

[13:50] Nectanebus: Cheers, Herman

[13:50] Nectanebus: See you next time

[13:51] oola Neruda: baiee everyone

[13:51] herman Bergson: Tilll next time Nectanebus

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aaa almost forgot, a thing for u

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: herman

[13:51] herman Bergson: ohh?

[13:52] herman Bergson: your outfit?

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: its from an anime i watch a lot

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: its awesome

[13:53] herman Bergson: Ahh the manga world

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and when i think about it suitable for theis theme too since we talk about asian philosophies and such

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: My avatar is from Dragonball and my outfit from Naruto

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: so 2 in 1 basically

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:53] herman Bergson: a bargain :-))

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: dont know where i found this, think it was on the market

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: not too expensive

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: search Akatsuki

[13:54] herman Bergson: I'll have a look at that webpage first, bejiita :-))

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa do so

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: lot of good info there

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: found there can be some spoilers in it though, often is

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: for ex about the guy Pain wich is where i am in the series now

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and that is after in total almost 400 episodes

[13:56] herman Bergson: then you shouldnt read it :-))

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: i will go through some more of the series after ive been on burn now a while again

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: but i recommend that series, its totally genious

[13:57] herman Bergson: I am not such an admirer of TV comics

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: some things u think is in one way at the beginnig turns out to be in a complete other way as u proceed

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: many surprises

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: i dont get how they get it all together

[13:58] herman Bergson: good team of writers

[13:58] herman Bergson: and computers

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: japanese people have some "smart" gene or something

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: they come up with stuff no other in the world can do

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: amazing people

[13:59] herman Bergson: yeah,,,,SUSHI...love it :-))

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: thats nice

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: tasted Ramen?

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: one of my fav

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: the name of the series and its main character naruto is in fact an ingredient in ramen

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: since he loves ramen

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: thats a bit funny

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:00] herman Bergson: indeed:-)

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: oki time to go and BUUURN some more again

497: The [non] existence of religiosity

When I first introduced this project on Eastern Philosophy one of the first reactions was "But isn't that most of all religion?"

And when I announced to continue with Buddhism the discussion came onto religion and religiosity again.

In my newspaper there is for some weeks now a discussion going on. It started with an article, written by a well known atheist, again stating that God does not exist.

Such a statement still works like a red flag on a Spanish bull and two days ago a hit again. Now is the headline "Suppression of religiosity has lasted long enough".

The fist sentence of the article already contains in interesting mistake.

" Philosophers and theologians already knew it since long ago, but now there is scientific proof: man is religious by nature."

In my eyes this is complete nonsense and begging the question. If the authors of the article had written: man shows by nature some peculiar behavior, I would have agreed.

What is the case: Over the last decade, there have been many calls in the secular community for increased criticism of religion, 

and increased activism to help loosen its grip on the public. But what if the human brain itself is aligned against that endeavor?

That's the argument made by cognitive scientist Robert McCauley in his new book, Why Religion is Natural and Science is Not. If McCauley is right, spreading secularism and critical thinking may always be a difficult battle.

Dr. McCauley is University Professor and Director of the Center for Mind, Brain, and Culture at Emory University.

What is the question here? Let me give you an example, an hilarious one actually but it really has happened.

I have a small plastic box with little pills in it, that I use in my coffee, well..the pills I mean, in stead of sugar. I guess you know what I mean. You press on the button and one little white pill is released.

But what happened? In stead of one there dropped TWO pills. I wasn't pleased with that at all and I thought "I'll get you!". And as a punishment I threw the extra pill in my trash. "There! Your own fault!"

Should I go and see my psychiatrist now? Treating inanimate objects as sensing beings? OMG!

The fun is, I dare to bet with each of you, that you have acted the same. When was the last time you talked to your car, or berated some object, which almost made you stumble? Let alone the abuse you used in response to the behavior of your computer.

Is this so surprising? Not at all. McCauley just reinvents the wheel, kicking open an opened door. Why? Quite simple, because what he says we already know for decades.

For that you have to turn to one of the founding fathers of cognitive psychology, a Swiss scientist  (1896 – 1980). He found the secrets of human learning and knowledge hidden behind the cute and seemingly illogical notions of children.

He developed a model of stages of cognitive development. What is interesting for us is the cognitive stage between 2 and 6 years, in which we discover that we are an individual and that there is the rest of the world.

It is the period in life that all things around you are animated: your doll, your stuffed bear, your cat and dog, the trees…name it.

The mistake we make is to believe that this cognitive state gradually is replaced by common sense. Sure, for 99% it is, but yet it stays a part of our brain.

In the adult stage it leads to the attitude, that we don't like questions. We like answers. Thence we developed science and where science can't offer answers , we invent answers ourself.

One organized answer with deep cultural and historic roots is called religion:  yet the product of the brain itself. It helps us to see the world as an organized, meaningful and destiny oriented system.

 And here I only can quote Bertrand Russell: "The value of philosophy is, in fact, to be sought largely in its very uncertainty. The man who has no tincture of philosophy goes through life imprisoned in the prejudices derived from common sense, 

from the habitual beliefs of his age or his nation, and from convictions which have grown up in his mind without the co−operation or consent of his deliberate reason."

So  the quintessence of life becomes how to live with uncertainty. And maybe Buddhism is an answer…who knows. For that …attend the next lectures:-))

The Discussion

2013/10/17 13:21]  herman Bergson: Thank you:-))

[2013/10/17 13:21]  CONNIE Eichel: :)

[2013/10/17 13:22]  herman Bergson: If you have questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-))

[2013/10/17 13:22]  Corronach: I don't think we *can* live with uncertainty.

[2013/10/17 13:22]  Corronach: I think we create logic and structure to survive.

[2013/10/17 13:22]  herman Bergson: yes indeed Corronach

[2013/10/17 13:23]  Corronach: Religion serves a function

[2013/10/17 13:23]  Corronach: for example...

[2013/10/17 13:23]  Corronach: it alleviates fear of death for many people

[2013/10/17 13:23]  herman Bergson: yes...

[2013/10/17 13:23]  Corronach: perhaps that fear would be too great otherwise

[2013/10/17 13:23]  Corronach: a mortal terror

[2013/10/17 13:23]  herman Bergson: in the article I referred to they even say it ois good for your health :-)

[2013/10/17 13:23]  Corronach: well, apparently prayer has been proven in some research to improve mental health

[2013/10/17 13:24]  herman Bergson: yes like meditation....

[2013/10/17 13:24]  herman Bergson: However...to pray for a sick person doesn't help the sick person at all, research also shows...

[2013/10/17 13:24]  herman Bergson: but it might help the other dealing with the feelings about a sick friend or relative indeed

[2013/10/17 13:25]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): alright, there is no solution to this dilemma.. or is there ?

[2013/10/17 13:25]  herman Bergson: what is the dilemma Dagg?

[2013/10/17 13:26]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): to see the fear or the void and not to be able to get rid of it

[2013/10/17 13:26]  herman Bergson: hmmm...yes...

[2013/10/17 13:26]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): i don't want to escape in some belief

[2013/10/17 13:26]  herman Bergson: That is what I am always wondering about....

[2013/10/17 13:26]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): yes

[2013/10/17 13:26]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): me too

[2013/10/17 13:27]  herman Bergson: I mean..what is so scaring about  this "void"?

[2013/10/17 13:27]  Corronach: both science and religion can be viewed as our need for control. whether we want control, as with science, or whether we want someone else to have it, as in religion.

[2013/10/17 13:27]  herman Bergson: Life is or is not....that is all we know...

[2013/10/17 13:27]  Corronach: either way, as long as there is control, we are contained.

[2013/10/17 13:27]  Corronach: secure.

[2013/10/17 13:28]  herman Bergson: Yes Corronach...but religion controls the masses perhaps...but it doesnt help the individual to control his personal life...

[2013/10/17 13:29]  Corronach: it can do, depending on the beliefs i suppose.

[2013/10/17 13:29]  herman Bergson: But indeed it all is about control...about understanding your life....the meaning of it...

[2013/10/17 13:29]  Corronach: the void, or the after-death, without religion is complete loss of control.

[2013/10/17 13:30]  herman Bergson: for some it appears to be indeed....

[2013/10/17 13:30]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): Not for you?

[2013/10/17 13:30]  herman Bergson: Imean..I dont mind....

[2013/10/17 13:30]  herman Bergson: I exist..and someday I stop existing ...what is the big deal there :-))

[2013/10/17 13:31]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): Well, I like existing :)

[2013/10/17 13:31]  CONNIE Eichel: its sad

[2013/10/17 13:31]  herman Bergson: Oh yes me too....^_^

[2013/10/17 13:31]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): So not existing anymore is a big deal.

[2013/10/17 13:31]  herman Bergson: I wouldnt say so...

[2013/10/17 13:32]  herman Bergson: because you only can be aware of not existing when you are aware of your existence :-))

[2013/10/17 13:32]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): but then we have another belief there, that life is meaningless..is that the conclusion ?

[2013/10/17 13:32]  herman Bergson: when you die awareness just simply stops

[2013/10/17 13:32]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): we don't know that

[2013/10/17 13:32]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): It may be irrelevant to me when I don't exist. But since I currently exist, it matters to me that I might stop :)

[2013/10/17 13:33]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): no one came back to tell, but we can assume so

[2013/10/17 13:33]  herman Bergson: yes..the idea not to have another day is unpleasant...

[2013/10/17 13:34]  herman Bergson: but realistic...it can happen...is absolutely normal that it will happentoo

[2013/10/17 13:34]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): Just because something is normal doesn't mean I have to like it.

[2013/10/17 13:34]  herman Bergson: but then the remark....if looked at it this way ...life is meaningless???

[2013/10/17 13:34]  herman Bergson: No....

[2013/10/17 13:34]  herman Bergson: Because that idea is deeply connected with teleological thinking....

[2013/10/17 13:35]  herman Bergson: Life must lead to something....to some goal...

[2013/10/17 13:35]  herman Bergson: is the life of your cat meaningless???

[2013/10/17 13:35]  herman Bergson: Does it expect to be reborn in some afterlife?

[2013/10/17 13:35]  Corronach: cat gives me joy :)

[2013/10/17 13:36]  CONNIE Eichel: we make that question when we are "born" in SL... what is the goal here?

[2013/10/17 13:36]  herman Bergson: Yes...Corronach...

[2013/10/17 13:36]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): I dont know, lets talk about humans , is hard enough lol

[2013/10/17 13:36]  herman Bergson: thus you give meaning to the life of your cat

[2013/10/17 13:36]  herman Bergson: as an organism...

[2013/10/17 13:36]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): I wouldn't argue that the absence of an afterlife makes life meaningless. In fact, if there is no afterlife, then corporeal life is the only life with any meaning.

[2013/10/17 13:36]  Corronach: i see two main purposes to SL, Connie. People come here for sex, or they come here to escape. Or both. :)

[2013/10/17 13:36]  herman Bergson: what is the difference between humans and all other creatures on this planet?

[2013/10/17 13:37]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): the difference is ...

[2013/10/17 13:37]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): We smoke cigarettes.

[2013/10/17 13:37]  CONNIE Eichel: coinscience... however it spells

[2013/10/17 13:37]  herman Bergson: Our consciousness...our self awareness...

[2013/10/17 13:37]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): that humans have an individuality , I guess

[2013/10/17 13:37]  herman Bergson: yes CONNIE :-)

[2013/10/17 13:37]  herman Bergson: Primates have an individuality too Dagg....

[2013/10/17 13:38]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): Oh, some also smoke cigarettes . . .

[2013/10/17 13:38]  herman Bergson: no two chimps are alike as individual for instance

[2013/10/17 13:38]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): not sure about that herman, sorry

[2013/10/17 13:38]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): I've heard there's been some interesting results recently to research in regards to dog consciousness.

[2013/10/17 13:39]  herman Bergson: oh...read Frans de Waal on that subject Dagg...

[2013/10/17 13:39]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): alright I will

[2013/10/17 13:39]  herman Bergson: well it is a proven fact that some animals have some level of self awareness...

[2013/10/17 13:40]  herman Bergson: The most famous test is the mirror test....

[2013/10/17 13:40]  herman Bergson: does an animal recognize himself in a mirror...?

[2013/10/17 13:40]  herman Bergson: A cat doesn't for instance....it goes looking behind the mirror

[2013/10/17 13:41]  herman Bergson: But an elephant does as a chimpansee does...

[2013/10/17 13:41]  CONNIE Eichel: /me vanishes for rl...

[2013/10/17 13:41]  herman Bergson: bye CONNIE :-)

[2013/10/17 13:41]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): what about the morality.. lets take the question of human rights..can animals go as far as we do ?

[2013/10/17 13:42]  herman Bergson: Of course not that far Dagg, but again....

[2013/10/17 13:42]  herman Bergson: Frans de Waal has demonstrated that even Bonobos have a sense of fairness....

[2013/10/17 13:43]  herman Bergson: His latest book is on this subject...

[2013/10/17 13:43]  herman Bergson: even these primates have some rudimentary sense of justice....

[2013/10/17 13:43]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): i need to doubt some of Piaget because i have two early memories, one i was in a baby's crib and the other i was crawling - i knew then what was inanimate and what was alive

[2013/10/17 13:43]  herman Bergson: but indeed nothing compared to what we have...

[2013/10/17 13:44]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): Ray Bradbury claimed to remember being in the womb.

[2013/10/17 13:45]  herman Bergson: you can claim what you like....of course...

[2013/10/17 13:45]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): lol

[2013/10/17 13:45]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): bradbury is been found unreliable

[2013/10/17 13:45]  herman Bergson: the peculiar thing with such claims however is that hardly anyone has such experiences, tho we are with billions of people on this planet...

[2013/10/17 13:46]  herman Bergson: it is always just one , maybe a few persons...

[2013/10/17 13:46]  herman Bergson: I would say it is complete nonsense what this Ray says..but that is my personal evaluation of his claim

[2013/10/17 13:47]  herman Bergson: Anyway...the point is....

[2013/10/17 13:47]  herman Bergson: can a philosopher deal with religious thinking...?

[2013/10/17 13:48]  herman Bergson: My answer is yes. of course, for it is a product of the same brain the philosopher uses....an aspect of human behavior

[2013/10/17 13:48]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): I should think a philosopher could analyse anything he or she wants :)

[2013/10/17 13:48]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): i am reading an article on consciousness, i am sorry, the title and author is not at my fingertips, that is leading me away from a deep theological belief

[2013/10/17 13:49]  herman Bergson: Yes indeed Toubanau...that is what is the value of philosophy as Russell indicates

[2013/10/17 13:49]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): I think that Plato f.i. was somehow religious..not in the sense of a dogma but in spiritual sense

[2013/10/17 13:50]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): I'm sorry but rl is calling me too. Nice meeting you folks :)

[2013/10/17 13:50]  herman Bergson: he was metaphysical indeed Dagg....

[2013/10/17 13:50]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): *leading me away from spiritual beliefs

[2013/10/17 13:50]  herman Bergson: because he tried to solve an epistemological problem...

[2013/10/17 13:50]  Toubanua T'Kreth (toubanua.tairov): Ciao, all :)

[2013/10/17 13:51]  herman Bergson: He wondered ..how can we know what we know...

[2013/10/17 13:52]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): this article i am reading explains the workings of the chemical/biologiacl brain

[2013/10/17 13:53]  herman Bergson: oh there is a lot of research on that subject XTC....

[2013/10/17 13:53]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): it is fascinating and wholly explainable

[2013/10/17 13:53]  herman Bergson: just google on 'godhelm'

[2013/10/17 13:53]  herman Bergson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

[2013/10/17 13:54]  herman Bergson: it explains a lot about what saints experienced in the catholic tradition....

[2013/10/17 13:54]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): the saxon chieftan?

[2013/10/17 13:54]  herman Bergson: Like Jean d'Arc shows all characteristics of what is now know as a mental disorder

[2013/10/17 13:55]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): ahh yes

[2013/10/17 13:55]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): ty

[2013/10/17 13:55]  herman Bergson: Well..

[2013/10/17 13:55]  Mikki Louise (mikkilouise): I must go.. thank you for the class and discussion

[2013/10/17 13:55]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): bye Mikki

[2013/10/17 13:55]  herman Bergson: I have tortured you long enough, I guess :-))

[2013/10/17 13:55]  Mikki Louise (mikkilouise): lol

[2013/10/17 13:55]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): no it was quite interesting herman

[2013/10/17 13:56]  herman Bergson: so..see you next lecture on Buddhism :-)

[2013/10/17 13:56]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): i am lagging very bad - i am not on my powerful pc :-(

[2013/10/17 13:56]  herman Bergson: You look perfectly ok to me, XTC...and your legs too :-))

[2013/10/17 13:56]  Corronach: thanks herman

[2013/10/17 13:56]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): haha :-))!

[2013/10/17 13:57]  herman Bergson: Thank you all again....class dismissed :-)

[2013/10/17 13:57]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): but i have pants on

[2013/10/17 13:57]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): thank you

[2013/10/17 13:57]  Dagg (daggash.bayn): bye bye all

[2013/10/17 13:57]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): byby, professor bergson

[2013/10/17 13:57]  herman Bergson: Bye Dagg

[2013/10/17 13:57]  Corronach: bye

[2013/10/17 13:57]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): byby

[2013/10/17 13:57]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): fare well until we meet again...

[2013/10/17 13:57]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): oxo...

[2013/10/17 13:58]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): Enjoy traveling around Second Life...

[2013/10/17 13:59]  xtc yonimyxtc (windows.bhalti): thank you for hosting, for teaching and for your time :-)

[2013/10/17 13:59]  herman Bergson: my pleasure XTC :-))

496: What about the East?

It is generally recognized that Confucian orthodoxy, which came to dominance in the Han dynasty (206 B.C.F.-220 C.E.)., is a river that over time was fed by three powerful streams: Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. 

A typical Chinese, even into the modem period, might be heard to say, "With respect to family and society, I am Confucian; 

with respect to Nature I am Taoist; and with respect to things beyond the world of Nature and society, I am Buddhist"

The stress here is on the harmony of the three traditions. There is no suggestion that one separates family from nature or from "things apart from nature." 

Though Confucianism remains dominant, the three sensibilities provide distinct foci in accordance with which one can construe one's life.

Contemporary China is still a ritually constituted society without grounding in the objective principles associated with reason or natural law, 

its order defined by the exemplars of its tradition, according to Hall and Ames, whom I referred to in the previous lecture.

We insist on the universality of certain values, laws of nature and principles. When we claim that Chinese are subjugated to those same universality, Hall and Ames, call this ethnocentrism.

But physics and other sciences are not just cultural contingencies. Therefore I think, they make it too easy here for themselves.

Individualism, so characteristic for the West, is regarded as selfishness in Chines culture, which remains grounded in filiality and the model of the family that cultivates filial dependency.

Technology is not just a consequence of Western culture. It is also a logical consequence of our scientific insights regarding the world we live in.

Theoretically you could ignore this phenomenon, because it doesn't fit into your own culture. But reality shows that this is not possible and thus technology is a serious threat to China.

Maybe you recall, what I quoted from a newspaper article in lecture 492: "China has lost its soul and to regain it traditional religions should get more space. Chinese President Xi Jinping would behind the scenes advocate this. 

Xi is worried about the decades of moral decline of the Chinese society, under the influence of the booming Chinese economy.

The rapid economic progress in China is associated with an obsession for a lot of money and material prosperity. 

President Xi Jinping hopes that Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism could offer the Chinese people moral benchmarks again."

That was recently, so in 2013. The article of Hall and Ames was written 10 years ago! And they then concluded:

"Asking the Chinese to recognize that they have inalienable rights is to ask them to become, per impossibile, beings with essences or natures. 

Wishing for increased autonomy and freedom for the Chinese people, along with access to the technologies and economic institutions that make for the Western standard of living, is to condemn the Chinese order to dissolution. 

And, after the deluge, there is little hope that any alternative order could be put in its place. There is good reason to believe that the Chinese intellectual, social, and political orders are in crisis."

This leaves us with an interesting picture of China today and many questions about its future.

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you..:-))

[13:19] Gemma Allen: wow

[13:19] Nectanebus applauds

[13:19] Nectanebus: Quite the depressing tone on this one, it seems...

[13:19] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:19] Gemma Allen: in a way

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: mind boggling

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:19] herman Bergson: Ye sin deed Nectanebus....

[13:19] Gemma Allen: well

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: About Xi Jinping, he sounds a lot like the Popes who've been warning for decades that Europe is losing its sense of identity due to secularization and marginalization of traditional Christianity.

[13:20] herman Bergson: But interesting is that this depressing tone was set 10 years ago

[13:20] Abinoam Nørgaard: It's not just China that is undergoing transformation, it's Europe as well

[13:20] xtc yonimyxtc: gee, i missed all those warnings

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: as i get this Chinese culture and modern technology don't mix

[13:20] ἀρετή: ten years...

[13:20] herman Bergson: Interesting point Abinoam :-))

[13:20] Gemma Allen: well some people can see the results of history

[13:21] Nectanebus: Yeah, everywhere's worried about the decline of moralism vis-a-vis consumerism

[13:21] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:21] Gemma Allen: always have been

[13:21] herman Bergson: Our big mistake is that we created a money world...

[13:22] herman Bergson: our science and technology are used to make money....

[13:22] herman Bergson: on every fart a patent claim

[13:22] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ahah

[13:23] herman Bergson: and then our eternal growth of the economy....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: well thats true

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and with money comes greed

[13:23] Gemma Allen: is true tho some of the original creators of tech were hoping for it to better life for mankind

[13:23] herman Bergson: the point is that the Chinese never organized their society in that way.....

[13:23] Gemma Allen: the money people got hold

[13:23] Nectanebus: Ah, but a Technocracy is quite the opposite to a Consumerist society.

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: the thing is if we do something we always want something back, thats why we have money

[13:24] Nectanebus: And perhaps the problem here is the disinclination of various philosophies of the world to assimilate the questions and meanings of technology into their ponderings...

[13:24] Nectanebus: technology*

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be the way most people wirk

[13:24] herman Bergson: that is the point nectanebus.....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: tit for tat so to say, nothing for free

[13:24] Gemma Allen: well most did not because it was nto there

[13:25] herman Bergson: Islam is an example of anti technological attitude....

[13:25] Nectanebus: certainly

[13:25] herman Bergson: and emancipation of the individual

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:25] herman Bergson: Shoot a twelve year old girl because she goes to school...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: they go backwards in time instead of forward

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: and start lot of wars

[13:26] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:26] Gemma Allen: it is a shame

[13:26] Corronach: on that note, happy Eid

[13:26] Gemma Allen: but

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: look what's happening in mid east now

[13:26] herman Bergson: But like the problems in China this is a reaction to what is forced upon us by Western culture....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: so tragic

[13:26] Gemma Allen: those are radicals

[13:26] herman Bergson: But contrary to HAll and Ames, I dont think you can call it ethnocentrism

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: indeed but start to get out of control

[13:27] Gemma Allen: some islamic countries have much more liberal views of women

[13:27] Nectanebus: A bit of radicalism amongst the change can be healthy as an anchor to a populace during times of flux.

[13:27] Gemma Allen: Turkey for example

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:27] herman Bergson: I doubt that Gemma...

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes thats true

[13:27] herman Bergson: also Turkey is moving backwards....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: at least my experience

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: compared to other places

[13:28] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:28] Gemma Allen: compared

[13:28] Nectanebus doesn't pay much heed to Turkish affairs

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: also turkey is one of few places u can visit in mid east that is not a war zone

[13:28] Gemma Allen: hope not

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: been there done that

[13:28] Gemma Allen: it was a model

[13:28] herman Bergson: true....but islamic opposition is growing in Turkey too again

[13:28] Gemma Allen: oh dear

[13:29] Gemma Allen: that is a shame

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: oow

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: Maybe the problem of today is...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: loved the place when i was there and want to go back someday soon, lot of my friends have been there before now recently too

[13:30] herman Bergson: that whatever culture you have....you have to face the reality of natural sciences anr its consequences....

[13:30] herman Bergson: take the mobile phone...

[13:30] herman Bergson: you can not call it just  a product of our culture...

[13:30] herman Bergson: as a mere contingency

[13:31] Nectanebus: True, but I don't think science is likely to interfere with cultural pursuits overmuch, even in a religious sense, unless we're talking true regressionist thought, which isn't as prominent as medias make us think...#

[13:31] herman Bergson: or do all prefer communications with drums still :-)

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:31] Abinoam Nørgaard: i do lol

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:31] Abinoam Nørgaard: hate the damn mobiles

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] herman Bergson: Guess you are a musician Abinoam :-))

[13:32] ἀρετή: music moves the world

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: i think modern smart phones are really practical things, the prob is nowadays everyone stare into those instead of socialising with each other

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: the asocial society

[13:33] herman Bergson: Maybe bejiita....

[13:33] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'm not, i just not a big fan of this idea of 24/7 availability that mobiles have introduced more than anything else. sure, you can turn it off, but everybody expects you to be available non-stop

[13:33] Nectanebus: Truth, Abi

[13:33] Nectanebus: If I'm not on work time, I refuse to have my mobile with me

[13:33] herman Bergson: indeed Abinoam

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: seen that on several occasions, people next to each other and all just stare down silently into their devices

[13:33] Nectanebus: Triangulation? no thanks

[13:33] ἀρετή: that's when you use technology to learn to meditate and reach out to learn about the essences and nature of people

[13:33] Abinoam Nørgaard: exactly

[13:34] herman Bergson: well anyway...when you look at Chinese philosophy today

[13:34] Nectanebus: And yeah, I think one thing Chaotes have ahead of other philosophies is occult use of technology as a matter of course

[13:34] herman Bergson: there is a serious struggle going on, I guess

[13:34] Nectanebus: Kinda of touches on what we mentioned a while ago about cities being ntural et cetera

[13:34] Nectanebus: natural*

[13:35] Abinoam Nørgaard: i missed that one

[13:35] herman Bergson: At least, I hope, you have some idea about Chinese philosophy today

[13:36] Abinoam Nørgaard: yes, thank you for the lecture!

[13:36] Corronach: Thank you herman

[13:36] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:36] herman Bergson: We'll leave the Chinese as such behind and focus our attention on one of the influences on Chinese philosophy....buddhism

[13:36] Nectanebus: Ending early today?

[13:36] Gemma Allen: wil be interesting to watch

[[13:37] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] Gemma Allen: and keep in mind while watching china

[13:37] herman Bergson: Not in particular nectanebus

[13:37] herman Bergson: but what else is there to say about the future of China ...:-)

[13:37] Qwark Allen: the next super power

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is my idea too Gemma....

[13:37] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:37] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:37] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:37] ἀρετή: it's kinda scary

[13:38] herman Bergson: And that is the question Qwark...

[13:38] Nectanebus: Until the aging population swipes it from under them

[13:38] Gemma Allen: well thinking back to the demise of the soviet union

[13:38] Abinoam Nørgaard: indeed

[13:38] herman Bergson: Due to their philosophical background, some doubt that they can make it as a superpower

[13:38] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'm doubtful myself

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: they don't know how to handle our stuff, will collapse

[13:39] Qwark Allen: start looking at the economy, etc

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...their confucian idea of society as a family....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: start looking international trade, and who owns what

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: you cant handle modern technology without understanding the science behind for ex, to get all pieces together

[13:39] Abinoam Nørgaard: corruption in china and lack of political freedoms are some of the things that will prevent them from becoming a true super power.

[13:40] Qwark Allen: ehehhe

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: all pieces of the puzzle must be there

[13:40] Gemma Allen: that may be very true

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Abinoam...things like that

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Qwark Allen: their system its a bit strange to our culture, but they have science behind them

[13:40] Nectanebus: how does lack of political freedom stop one becoming a superpower? I thought a dictatorship might be preferable from a cold-blooded standpoint...

[13:40] Abinoam Nørgaard: in short term yes

[13:41] Abinoam Nørgaard: but no dictatorship has held on for long

[13:41] Qwark Allen: they have a satilite in mars, a space station in orbit also

[13:41] herman Bergson: But science as a product derived from foreigners Qwark

[13:41] Qwark Allen: the 3rd launched

[13:41] Nectanebus: Interesting point, Herman

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:41] Qwark Allen: not really

[13:41] Qwark Allen: we can say the USA have foreigners making their science moving foward

[13:41] Qwark Allen: but not china

[13:41] herman Bergson: all cultures try to integrate science .....but it still is a product of Western thinking...

[13:42] Gemma Allen: taken from others tech

[13:42] Qwark Allen: mmmm

[13:42] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:42] herman Bergson: individualism is a source of creativity.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: an attitude unknown in japan....

[13:42] Qwark Allen: check how many foreigners were employed for china to make their space station

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: china assimilates what they get from outside copying it well but unclear if they have the understanding how it really works

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: like we do

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: some do maybe, and some dont

[13:42] herman Bergson: therefore Japan was a long time a good copier of western products...

[13:43] Gemma Allen: a very good copier :-)

[13:43] Qwark Allen: japan is a pioneer for sure in electronics

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Gemma  they were able to improve the copies...not to invent new things

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but japan understand the science behind the things as well

[13:43] Qwark Allen: like china

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes today ...

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: its a real high tech place 10 hears ahead of the rest of the world

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: years

[13:44] Qwark Allen: make no mistake, anyone that makes and runs a space station, knows what is doing

[13:44] Nectanebus: Because Buddhism itself isn't a very "religious" viewpoint, and Shinto, well....kinda odd to explain.

[13:44] Nectanebus: But these things aren't as cloying as a Daoist view of technology

[13:44] Nectanebus: Where's the Ki in electricity?

[13:45] Nectanebus: Makes sense to Westerners, but not the Chinese...and odd thing...

[13:45] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think you're giving too much credit to religion there. it's like saying that we would have no space science without teachings of jesus

[13:45] Nectanebus: I mean as to how the "religions" themselves view technologies

[13:45] ἀρετή: I thought there are more Christians in China.

[13:45] Nectanebus: Not as to how much hold thy have o'er the populace

[13:46] Abinoam Nørgaard: sure, but in general, i think one can be a devout buddhist or a taoist and a perfectly good scientist

[13:46] Abinoam Nørgaard: at the same time

[13:46] herman Bergson: Historically since and technology could develop in europe because it freed itself from religious constraints

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Qwark Allen: At one end, some Bible organizations claim that there are as many as 200 million Christians in China already, not without the hope of encouraging continued flow of support for their many programs for aiding the Christians in China.

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: the church held back technology development for maybe 100s of years

[13:47] herman Bergson: On the other hand Aninoam, some research seem to show that about 3% of eurpean scientists like to call themselves christians

[13:47] Qwark Allen: heeheheh i would say at least 1000 bej

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: maybe in the area of astronomy, but it aided medical research and humanities, among others

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: we could have come much further then we have done if it werent for that

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: in some ways

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: thats sad

[13:47] Qwark Allen: yep

[13:48] Qwark Allen: one the reasons i don`t like them

[13:48] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:48] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:48] Qwark Allen: why*

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: angles and demons show that clearly

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: religion against particle physics

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: i wouldn't take my history out of that book lol

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: maybe not

[13:49] Qwark Allen: what is the perspective of china religion, of technology?

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: but shows a part of the idea

[13:49] herman Bergson: There was an article in my newspaper yesterday about religiosity....

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: yes, i see what you mean

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: that religion and scientific development oppose each other

[13:49] Qwark Allen: :-/

[13:49] herman Bergson: and why it is healthy for people to be religious...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: basically science what time to go forward, religion backwards

[13:50] Nectanebus: I think there's a lot of supposition all of a sudden

[13:50] Qwark Allen: i see the point there! the more dumb is the collective, more easy is the collective to buy cheap religiosity

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: many islamic places live like it was middle ages now

[13:50] Qwark Allen: look at the cargo cult in polinesia

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: goes back in time

[13:50] Qwark Allen: for me was a eye opener, this cargo cult

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:50] ἀρετή: unless it's Dubai

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: wicker man analogy

[13:50] Abinoam Nørgaard: hehe, yes arete

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes dubai is a different story

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:51] herman Bergson: Maybe I could dedicate a lecture to the phenomenon of religiosity before starting with buddism :-)

[13:51] Qwark Allen: check Abu Dabi

[13:51] Qwark Allen: more sci fi then Dubai

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i want to go play golf there

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Qwark Allen: hehehe

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: and Belek too

[13:51] Abinoam Nørgaard: we can't generalize entire religions like that. clearly there are lots of differences about how islam is expressed and practiced in different places. just like christianity is.

[13:52] herman Bergson: true Abinoam...

[13:52] herman Bergson: but I want to take it one step back.....

[13:52] ἀρετή: Thanks, Qwark, would look it up.

[13:52] herman Bergson: where does religiosity come from?

[13:52] Qwark Allen: maybe in general we can say that religion go out, when technology goes in

[13:52] herman Bergson: and how to deal with it

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: indeed, there are differences but the general direction goes in a certain way in general it seems for many places

[13:53] ἀρετή: maybe it's how people perceive religion

[13:53] Nectanebus: Chickens and eggs, I think, Herman

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: its tricky

[13:53] ἀρετή: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070222155706.htm

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: complicated subject

[13:53] Nectanebus: And I don't think it's as simple as coming to a final solution on the religious question

[13:53] herman Bergson: no Nectanebus, I wouldn't say that...

[13:53] Qwark Allen: and the reason comes from more educated people, question more religion points of view

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nope

[13:54] Abinoam Nørgaard: i don't have a problem with religiosity as such. there doesn't seem to be a single human community without it. it's how it manifests and whether it is a force for good or evil that i'm concerned about

[13:54] herman Bergson: ok...I'll throw some oil on this fire inthe enxt lecture :-))

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ehehhe

[13:54] Gemma Allen: thursday?

[13:54] Nectanebus: Chickens and eggs, then, as far as "where it came from"

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes...Thursday...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: religion in itself can be good but its often misinterpreted and then used in the totally wrong way

[13:54] Gemma Allen: i think i can make it

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: for power and to oppress

[13:54] Qwark Allen: Chinese eggs from japan chickens?

[13:54] herman Bergson: I agree with Abinoam :-)

[13:54] Nectanebus: I'll be working as usual, but I should make this time next week :)

[13:54] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:55] Corronach: i'll probably be here

[13:55] Gemma Allen: opposite of me

[13:55] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:55] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:55] herman Bergson: ok....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:55] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:55] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:55] Gemma Allen: next week the burn2 is on all week

[13:55] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:55] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol

[13:55] Gemma Allen: i will be rangering

[13:55] Qwark Allen: i play at the opening

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:55] herman Bergson: before we move on to buddhism and so on we first take a stand on religiosity from a philosophers point of view

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hope not too laggy

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'll come wearing a fire-proof suit

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: looking forward to burn

[13:56] Nectanebus: heheh

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:56] Qwark Allen: ahhaah will be for sure the first hours

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: i come with my flame thrower then

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:56] ἀρετή: I'll come and take pics then

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: hahaha

[13:56] Gemma Allen: ah bood

[13:56] Gemma Allen: good

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: when we try set each other on fire

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:56] Gemma Allen: the builds are very good

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: sounds like fun

[13:56] Gemma Allen: lots os them

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: loves this event

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: its so nice

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: this and SLB events

[13:57] herman Bergson: Before you do all that I kindly would point at the rules of engagement here as described behind me :-))

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: are the best

[13:57] Abinoam Nørgaard smiles

[13:57] Qwark Allen: indeed m8

[13:57] Nectanebus: Anywho, later on everyone

[13:57] Corronach: thanks herman

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon

[13:57] Abinoam Nørgaard: bye everyone, i'll be off too

[13:57] Abinoam Nørgaard: take care

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:57] Nectanebus: Fare thee well

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ty

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**  **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:57] herman Bergson: ok...thank you all again for your participation :-)

[13:57] Gemma Allen: where

[13:57] Qwark Allen: hope i can some thursday to

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: this was some stuff to think about indeed

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:58] ἀρετή: Thank you

[13:58] Qwark Allen: need to go get some food before sleep

[13:58] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:58] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:58] Gemma Allen: ye

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] xtc yonimyxtc: thank you, professor bergson

[13:58] Gemma Allen: and look up

[13:58] herman Bergson: And keep your eye open on China

[13:58] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:58] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:58] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: i will

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] herman Bergson: thnx Gemma

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: nee to check some stuff up

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: about this

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡

[13:59] ἀρετή: have a good day

[13:59] herman Bergson: Some discussion !