494: Chinese Otherness continued

How are we to approach the question of Chinese philosophy against the background of the general recognition on the parts of both China and the West of vast  cultural differences? 

In the first place, we had better not overload the term philosophy with its Western connotations. 

What serves as "philosophic thinking" in China is significantly different from that with which most of us are familiar. 

Second, we must be prepared to understand the differences between Chinese and Western thinking as both cause and consequence of those broader cultural differences perhaps more easily observed.

In the previous lecture I referred to Gerald Heard's words: For Europeans it is the question "Where am I?"; for Chinese it is all about the question "What am I?"

Consequently, the West was focused on discovering the objective nature of things. Philosophers on metaphysics searched out the BEING of things. 

Epistemologists wondered how we can know the reality behind its appearances in our senses.

But the overriding concern of the Chinese has always been the establishment of harmonious relationships with their social ambience.  Their "philosophic" thinking is always concrete, this-worldly, and, above all, practical.

Western understandings of the way things hang together rest on the presumption that order and harmony must be vigilantly maintained by appeal to a creative agent or laws of nature and principles.

Ancient Greek thinking began with the question "What is there?" Elements like air, water, fire or atoms or the like. This lead to metaphysics, "ontologia generalis" on the one hand and a "scientia generalis", the more physical and scientific approach to BEING.

The whole conceptual framework which comes with this metaphysics is useless, if you want to apply it to Chinese thinking. It never developed a cosmology, an explanation of BEING, like we did.

This is reflected in the character of the Chinese language. Let me quote from "From Africa to Zen":

The usual Chinese equivalents for "being" and "not-being" are YU and WU. But the meanings of these terms are markedly different from their uses in Indo-European languages. 

The Chinese YU means not that something "is" in the sense that it  exists; it means rather that "something is present." "To be" is "to be available," "to be around." 

Likewise, "not be" means "not to be around." Thus, the Chinese sense of "being" overlaps with "having." A famous line from the Taoist classic the Tao Te Ching, often translated as "Not-Being is superior to Being," may as easily be translated "Not-having is superior to having". end quote -

Stated in a more general way, you could say, that Chinese thinking looks at the things how they are here and now and in harmony with their environment.

For that you don't need an established structure of the universe, organized by laws of nature and principles. You only need to look at things in there actual context.

The dominant meaning of order in the West is associated with uniformity and pattern regularity. In its most general sense, this "logical" or "rational" ordering is expressed in terms of the structure, or logos, of the cosmos. 

The Chinese understanding of order is one in which the natural and social worlds comprise concrete particulars whose uniqueness is essential to any context to which they belong.

This is just an example how different the West and China looked at metaphysical interpretations of the world we live in. They both have a different starting point.

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Routledge History of World Philosophies, vol 3, History of Chinese Philosophy (2009)

An Introduction to Chinese Philosophy - Karyn L. Lai, Oxford 2008

Chinese Philosophy, P. Carus, 1902

A Brief History of chinese Philosophy. D.T. Suzuki, 1914

From Africa to Zen, ed. R.Solomons & K. Higgins  2003 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^

[13:18] NectanebusNectanebus applauds

[13:19] Gandalf Whinstanes: Thank you.

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free :-)

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: i am

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: impressed.

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: :-)

[13:19] Nectanebus: Yeah, some real heavy concepts and wordings today ;)

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: is our way of thinking more complicated than the Chinese way of thinking/

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: aaa very interesting

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: ?

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: i guess it is

[13:20] herman Bergson: Well I am impressed myself by the huge difference in perception of reality between the West and China

[13:20] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje....

[13:20] Gandalf Whinstanes: I am new to this, pardon my simplicity. When you say they have different starting points, does that mean they meet on things at some point?

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: we use lot of physics and complicated formulas to describe the world, the chinese i guess just are

[13:20] herman Bergson: Because this relates to how we look(ed) at the Chinese for centuries...

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: try to be in harmony with nature and then its good

[13:21] ἀρετή: hmm..

[13:21] herman Bergson: That has been the case Bejiita....

[13:21] herman Bergson: But the weird thing is....

[13:21] ἀρετή: since when has the Chinese been in harmony with nature?

[13:21] Nectanebus: IN thought if not action, areyn, for a while

[13:21] herman Bergson: eventually everyone likes to use the laws of nature and physics...

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: well i guess so cause thats where u learn in detail how everything rweally work for the curious minded

[13:22] herman Bergson: Your remark, Arayn, is typical for our approach of the situation....

[13:22] ἀρετή: with one difference.. :)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Because you apply YOUR concept of harmony to Chinese thinking...

[13:23] Nectanebus: I'm kind of interested by the part about how "Chinese" thought focuses less on "why" things are, and more on the use in context. Kinda links to their ready acceptance of Communism as an ideal easier than a more "what contingency" American outlook..

[13:23] herman Bergson: and it might well be the case that it doesn't apply at all within their thinking]

[13:24] xtc yonimyxtc: being in harmony with nature keeps you in nature. being in harmony with the universe keeps you universal

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: guess so

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:24] herman Bergson: I agree Bejiita ^_^

[13:25] herman Bergson: But to respond to Nectanebus remark....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Social harmony is one of the ruling principles in Chiese thinking...

[13:25] ἀρετή: I thought it's financial wealth.. .

[13:25] Nectanebus: as opposed to the individualistic Western notions, yeah ;)

[13:26] Nectanebus: and everyone wants wealth if we're talking nations, areyn

[13:26] herman Bergson: So accepting communism in stead of confucianism wasn't such a big difference, technically, I would guess

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: i did, too, areyn

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: financial harmony

[13:27] xtc yonimyxtc: the Chinese warlords would differ on that

[13:27] herman Bergson: I think China is in a deep cultural crisis at the moment....

[13:27] Nectanebus: That's kind of my logic as well, Herman. Also like how Capitalism was taken up in America easily off the back of Social Darwinism et cetera, it's all how far back you trace the lines heh

[13:27] Nectanebus: sorry, do continue

[13:27] herman Bergson: no you are right Nectanebus....

[13:28] Gandalf Whinstanes: Is China going through the same thing Japan did after mixing with us?

[13:28] Nectanebus: Interesting idea, Gandalf...

[13:28] herman Bergson: China is now absorbing consumerism and capitalism in its system....and these are alien aspects of society to them...

[13:28] Corronach: it's quite a shame.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: dont knowing how to handle it so spins out of control

[13:29] herman Bergson: But on the other hand Chinese are as human as we are and have the same brain layout ....

[13:29] Gandalf Whinstanes: then the decadence and greed sets in, then the generation gap.

[13:29] Nectanebus: Phrenology be damned!

[13:29] herman Bergson: so greed , pleasure , etc...are also known to them....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: we all work the same way basically yes

[13:29] ἀρετήἀρετή smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: no no not phrenology...that is nonsense...

[13:29] Nectanebus: BUt yeah, certainly generation gaps seem to be a defining point of cultural loss over the past 40 years especially

[13:30] Nectanebus: Yeah, I know, I was having a giggle with the phrenology thing.

[13:30] herman Bergson: just simple neurobiological properties of the human being...

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think i was trying to say our level of it. whereas they've lived harmoiously, capitalism injects a greater competitive nature.

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: kind of messes things up a bit.

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: and the generation gap i think is the sudden embracing of technology.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gandalf, something like that may be the case....

[13:31] Gandalf Whinstanes: i wonder if their kids will have a high suicide rate like japan.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Competition was not one of their social values.....harmony is...

[13:31] ἀρετή: the generation gap seems to be asian parents sending their kids to be educated in the western world.. coming back with a western thinking to the eastern world..

[13:31] Nectanebus: That's an interesting one

[13:31] Nectanebus: But then we did the same in the 60s

[13:32] herman Bergson: and in the 20s too...

[13:32] Gandalf Whinstanes: it created a gap as well.

[13:32] Nectanebus: These cultural bleed throughs may all be long overdue teething proccesses, to some extent.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah'

[13:32] Gandalf Whinstanes: now parenting is in trouble in my opinion, as a result.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Betrand Russell and John Dewey lectured in China...

[13:32] Nectanebus: names...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Leading philosophers in those days Nectanebus....

[13:33] herman Bergson: un the UK and the US...

[13:33] Nectanebus: Ah, analytics and such

[13:33] Nectanebus: Sorry, I'm better with concepts than the creators thereof  [13:33] herman Bergson: yes and pragmatism....

[13:33] Gandalf Whinstanes: Do Chinese intellects look at us as inferior, equal, or superior.

[13:33] herman Bergson: but it was all overruled by communism in 1949

[13:33] ἀρετή: as inferior..

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: I feel our cultures are definitely inferior to theirs, meaning America.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Good question Gandalf...

[13:34] herman Bergson: but Ido not know the answer...

[13:34] Nectanebus: I@m sure gwailo and gaijin are as loaded terms for 20-something Chinese kids as certain slurs were for us in the 70s..

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: They've had millennia to learn to get along.

[13:34] Nectanebus: Chinese/Japanese*

[13:34] herman Bergson: They have always looked at us as an inferior species....rude, clumsy and barbaric

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: valid

[13:35] Nectanebus: Shinto helps in those circumstances, methinks

[13:35] Nectanebus: Being descended directly from Gods kind of gives people superiority complexes sometimes...

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: what are 'methinks'?

[13:35] Gandalf Whinstanes: Their culture is much older and less conflicted than ours.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: huess so

[13:36] Gandalf Whinstanes: thats where i think they have advantage. we have no culture really.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: guess

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...I don't know how things are now in that respect....

[13:36] Nectanebus: Sorry, "methinks" is old slang for "I think".

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: ok..thank you ㋡

[13:36] Nectanebus: np

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is a bit too fast Gandalf, to say that we have no culture....

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: well, hopefully given the age of the culture, these new events will only be a ripple, not a break.

[13:37] herman Bergson: just being a society is culture and not nature

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: But we are splintered and divided.

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: and young.

[13:37] Corronach: i would agree with you, Herman

[13:37] herman Bergson: So  many cultures in a melting pot Gandalf :-)

[13:37] Nectanebus: BUt all cultures have bits of others. English is Latin+Saxon+French, Rome harkened back to Egypt, yaddadeedoo

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: i would disagree.

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think the melting pot was all hype.

[13:38] Nectanebus: haha

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: whatever was put into it was diminished.

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: not combined or refined.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Nectanabus.....but we have little understanding of Chinese cuture

[13:38] Nectanebus ponders

[13:38] herman Bergson: The chinese..like the Japanese use Western science...yes...

[13:39] xtc yonimyxtc: i agree to an extent, gandalf - cultural melding takes time

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Gandalf...we still live in a world which is divided, not uniting....

[13:39] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think our culture, specifically, is conflicted because we have no harmony. Everyone is hyphenated something, not americans.

[13:39] ἀρετή: is it possible to create a new culture?

[13:39] Nectanebus: I think we focus more on our differences as vilification rather than areas to explore as avenues of learning about cultures. Kind of like nikhabs, there's so many layers to their meanings and most Westerners think all women that wear one are persecuted Mary Sues...

[13:40] Nectanebus: Interesting point, areyn...

[13:40] Nectanebus: Maybe it's a worry of being proud of any culture when we're in a politically correct society

[13:40] Nectanebus: Thus we all go grey by lowest common denominator politic

[13:41] herman Bergson: I can not predict the future Arayn, but I guess....not in our lifetime ever...

[13:41] Nectanebus has no answers here, only questions

[13:41] Nectanebus: Seems to be the problem of our age, though

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: i am not a hyphenated citizen and i am a first generation born citizen of an officially declared multicultural country. i was taught by my immigrant parents to take up the main, historic culture of my country

[13:41] Nectanebus: "Why can't we all just....get along?"

[13:41] Nectanebus: I think you've hit the nail, xtc ;)

[13:42] Gandalf Whinstanes: political correctness is really the ending of free speech and expression. we remain divided over petty issues, which allows us to ignore the worldy ones.

[13:42] Gandalf Whinstanes: the Chinese move as one it seems.

[13:43] herman Bergson: I think all becomes too much speculation here now :-)

[13:43] Nectanebus: Bound to happen, haha

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] ἀρετή: sorry.. goes back to the lesson :)

[13:43] herman Bergson: so to focus again on the main issue today....

[13:43] herman Bergson: we can observe that our metaphysics do not fit in with Chinese thinking....

[13:44] herman Bergson: In Chinese there are no words for concepts we use....and that is remarkable...

[13:45] herman Bergson: this difference is cause and consequence of a certain culture...

[13:45] herman Bergson: The way we live causes ideas and the ideas lead to new behavioral patterns...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: an amazing fact if you see the difference between Western and Chinese philosophy

[13:46] Gandalf Whinstanes: we are at a point in history where the cultures are colliding?

[13:46] Gandalf Whinstanes: with china becoming most wealthy.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: could say that i guess

[13:46] herman Bergson: And you can witness every day in the news how this affects us and China as a society...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well Gandalf..

[13:47] Gandalf Whinstanes: when you say society, you mean both of us together? or individually?

[13:47] herman Bergson: if you take into account the collapse of communism in 1989 and the switch to capitalist methods in China today..yes ...I guess you are right

[13:48] Nectanebus: It's interesting how China's almost being set up as "The Second Red Menace". American media is already "othering" them in the same way as they did Russia during the Cold War.

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: Other?

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: whats that mean?

[13:48] Nectanebus: To "other" a person, uhh..

[13:48] herman Bergson: TO feel united you need an enemy Gandalf...:-)

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: ahhhh.

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: us and them.

[13:49] Nectanebus: It's identifying as "us" and "them".

[13:49] Nectanebus: yeah

[13:49] Gandalf Whinstanes: well, thats our specialty.

[13:49] herman Bergson: And since the Russians are no threat anymore, the US needs a new enemy, I guess

[13:49] Gandalf Whinstanes: thats our sickness.

[13:49] Nectanebus: And Communism's the same threat they had for Russia and Vietnam, so third strike?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Not a sickness Gandalf...basic human behavior...

[13:50] herman Bergson: like all primates have a sense of "us" and "the others"

[13:50] herman Bergson: still tribal thinking...:-)

[13:50] Gandalf Whinstanes: I would say given Americas war mongering ways, and success with it, we are not basic in those aspects.

[13:50] Nectanebus: Pack mentality, et cetera, starting of society in monkeys and such

[13:51] herman Bergson: No Gandalf that is a way more complex discussion....not meant for this class :-)

[13:51] Nectanebus: heh

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well, I guess we saved the world again today....

[13:51] xtc yonimyxtc: the 'new enemy' is the islamist terrorists, not china

[13:51] Gandalf Whinstanes: ironic.

[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation :-))

[13:51] ἀρετή: can we just send all the people who think of us and them to the moon.. they'll see just one Earth

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Gandalf Whinstanes: yes.

[13:52] Gandalf Whinstanes: thank you Herman.

[13:52] Nectanebus: Thanks Herman, interesting as always :)

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yues

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: very

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:52] xtc yonimyxtc: thank you very much, Professor Bergson.

[13:52] Gandalf Whinstanes: ciao.

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Corronach: Thanks Herman

[13:52] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita :-)

493: Chinese Otherness

So far I have pointed at apparent similarities between Chinese and our philosophy and ideas. But what about that Chinese otherness? Do our philosophical concepts apply to Chinese philosophy?

The most familiar associations of the word Chinese in our popular discourse are "puzzling," "confusing".  In Dutch we use to say "This is Chinese to me"  to tell that you don't understand at all what is explained, for instance.

I found an interesting chapter in "From Africa to Zen" by David Hall and Roger Adams (2003) with a fascinating explanation of the otherness of Chinese thinking.

"Late in the evening of june 4, 1989, government tanks rolled into Beijing's Tiananmen Square, the symbolic center of China, to clear the square of protesters.

The news media have provided vivid accounts of events apparently similar to the Tiananmen incident: protesters with placards and loudspeakers 

exhorting liberal reforms and proclaiming certain victory for their cause; soldiers, in helmets and khaki uniforms, firing upon their fellow citizens. 

Were we to look at Tiananmen through Chinese eyes, however, would we really see an event explicable in the terms used to explain student protests in our own country 

or, for that matter, the broader acts of governmental violence in the Middle East, South Africa, or Eastern Europe? Instinctively, we believe that pain and the brutality that causes it are the same around the globe.

But how are we to interpret the incident at Tiananmen as a democratic revolt if in our democracy there is  a prevailing conception of personhood that entails natural rights, free choice, independence, autonomy, and so on, 

while in China such values, far from being self-evident and normative, have traditionally been regarded by even the sagest Chinese as sociopathic?"

The Chinese, then, may look different to us. If you knew how they thought / think about us?! Barbaric, clumsy, tactless and vulgar. Westerners even got the nickname "foreign devil".

A popular saying in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries captured this impression of the intruding foreigner as unmannered and graceless: 

"The sage fears nothing in this world. save for one thing only: the foreign devil attempting to speak Chinese."

It hasn't been always this way. When the jesuit Matteo Ricci (1551 - 1610) came to China, he found there, according to his reports, a humane and eminently civilized people.

Individuals such as Leibniz (1646 -1716) and Voltaire (1694 - 1778) often proclaimed the knowledge and virtues of the Chinese to be superior to those of Europeans.

It was Leibniz himself who discovered the binary structure of the Yi Ching hexagrams. But it was Hegel (1770 - 1831), who came up with an unsympathetic interpretation of Chinese civilization.

At the time of the Industrial revolution, when Europe and America marched under the banner of scientific and industrial progress, the evaluation of Chinese culture was described in terms like inert, backward-looking and dying.

Or  take this: "The Chinese are naturally conservative because their written language is rigid and inflexible, rendering the task of forming new words extremely difficult.  

And the people  who are hampered in forming new words are also hampered in their conception of new ideas and the discovery of new truths." ("Chinese Philosophy" by dr. P. Carus. 1902)

Things like Maoism since 1949 and The Cultural revolution, haven't contributed to a more positive opinion about Chinese civilization.

The religious writer Gerald Heard (1889 - 1971) once characterized the civilizations of Europe, India, and China in terms of a fundamental question presumably asked by the thinkers and seers of each tradition. 

For the European that question was "Where am I?" Curiosity about the nature of the external world led to the development of the natural and social sciences. 

Indians asked the question "Who am I?" and as a consequence discovered subtle techniques of spiritual self-examination and articulation. 

The Chinese asked the question "What am!?" This question was answered in terms of rituals and roles establishing the parameters of one's identity as a social being.

To  be continues….

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: T….  Thank you... :-)

[13:18] Ada Zaurak: ty, Herman

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] Corronach: :)

[13:18] herman Bergson: Guess your brains are milling all info :-)

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: hmm that was something indeed

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:19] Corronach: Bejiita will start us off. :)

[13:19] herman Bergson: The most important point is....

[13:20] herman Bergson: in 1984 a Chinese student said "We need mere democracy,tho I don't know what it is..."

[13:20] herman Bergson: The thing is....there is no word for democracy in Chinese....not a word that expresses the same concept as how we understand democracy

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: cause they have never experienced anything like that or?

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:21] Ada Zaurak: what about Hongkong and Taiwan?

[13:21] herman Bergson: It was never present in their frame of mind Bejiita....

[13:21] Ada Zaurak: and 1984 is 30 years ago, and world and china especially is transforming in highspeed

[13:21] herman Bergson: Hongkong, Taiwan....?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Hongkong is british...well was...

[13:22] Ada Zaurak: yes

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Ada...and that is the big problem.....

[13:22] Ada Zaurak: what influences has the history of Hongkong and the 10.000.000 ppl there to the rest of china?

[13:22] herman Bergson: I talked about that in my previous lecture....

[13:23] Ada Zaurak: i'm sorry when i bring old Kamellen into the discussion ,-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: The problem is that the conceptual world of Chinese thinking is largely formed by Confucianism and Daoism....

[13:24] herman Bergson: It means...they look in a different way at reality...

[13:25] herman Bergson: some Chines scholar once said...

[13:25] herman Bergson: the reason why China never developed  biology or zoology is

[13:25] herman Bergson: because...when a Chinese sees a fish he first thinks of how it will taste

[13:26] herman Bergson: he can't look at it in the emotionless way like westerners do

[13:26] herman Bergson: You could say.....

[13:26] herman Bergson: we can make nature an OBJECT of study....emotionless, rational....

[13:27] herman Bergson: A Chinese is first one with nature...from a daoist point of view for instance

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thus Chinese lack a lot of concepts we use and visa versa...

[13:28] herman Bergson: But yet they are integrating at high speed our consumerism into their society...

[13:29] herman Bergson: And that leads to huge corruption.....to begin with

[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe this is a bit too much for you? :-)

[13:30] Ada Zaurak: corruption in the meaning of political corruption?

[13:31] herman Bergson: corruption in the meaning of making money based on for instance your position

[13:31] Mikki Louise: what are they missing that leads to the corruption? Italy also has much corruption.. Russia too... another society embracing consumerism

[13:31] herman Bergson: Russia has amazed me greatly....

[13:32] herman Bergson: When the communist system collapsed ...in no time there was a well organized maffia

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is one thing....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Basically you can say that corruption doesn't occur when people have strong moral standards....

[13:33] herman Bergson: with respect to honesty, justice, fairness and values like that

[13:34] Roo: good morning all

[13:34] Mikki Louise: but most societies have a group that leans towards corrupt practice as a means to do business .. just as most societies have a form of fried bread

[13:34] herman Bergson: So when a society is corrupt these moral standards seem to be absent

[13:34] herman Bergson: not present

[13:34] Mikki Louise: there are commonalities despite our different teachings

[13:34] Ada Zaurak: but also when there is the absence of poverty

[13:35] Ada Zaurak: as more poverty as more corruption

[13:35] herman Bergson: there are many explanations for the presence of corruption in a society....

[13:36] Ada Zaurak: yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: I don't think there is just one with respect to the causes...

[13:36] herman Bergson: except the fact that people don't seem to value certain moral values

[13:37] herman Bergson: even some primates have a sense of fairness.....sharing equally for instance....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: so basically Chinese are all egoistic?

[13:37] herman Bergson: morality IS part of our system....but greed is too unfortunately :-)

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thinking for themselves only

[13:37] Roo: Egocentric is the word you mean

[13:37] herman Bergson: No, you can't say that bejiita....

[13:37] Roo: to write

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i heard at work that they build whole cities that no one can afford to live in so they just stand empty like ghost towns

[13:38] herman Bergson: but the consumerism which is new to china can make a lot of people weak....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Why can't I have what my neighbor has?

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is true.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Just to fake that the economy is growing...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats a real waste i d say

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: build stuff for nothing

[13:39] .: Beertje :.: herman Bergson: Why can't I have what my neighbor has?..sounds childish to me

[13:39] herman Bergson: It will be come an increasing problem for the future Bejiita....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed, can imagine

[13:40] Mikki Louise: they would call it speculation... eventually the population will grow, the demand will be there..so build now while it is cheap

[13:40] herman Bergson: You mean, Beertje, that you don't want  a car too like your neighbor....? He has the same job as you have for instance

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: i don't need a car like my neighbour has

[13:41] herman Bergson: Big problem it that the population doesn't grow Mikki...they still have the one child policy

[13:42] herman Bergson: No not you Beertje....but many look at others...our children already do so...

[13:42] herman Bergson: they want NIKE shoes too like their friends in class

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and an iphone

[13:42] .: Beertje :.: lol Bejiita

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: cause all others have too

[13:42] herman Bergson: oh yes....at least an iPhone

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: thats how it works these days indeed

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: hmm

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: why?

[13:43] herman Bergson: We are destroying ourselves slowly with our consumerism....China is just beginning to discover this way of life

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: not good if escalating out of control though

[13:44] herman Bergson: It adopts the technological and economical infrastructure...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: buy- throw away, buy new - throw away ect.

[13:45] herman Bergson: but it lacks the  underlying conceptual structure of western individualism

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: you need those concepts too i guess

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: to make it manageable

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: we are destroying our earth if we and all the Chinese keep thinking like that

[13:46] herman Bergson: This is why Xi Jinping is looking at religions as some kind of incentive for moral behavior

[13:46] Ada Zaurak: hmmm, is anything here in western world manageable?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...THAT is the present horror scenario....

[13:47] .: Beertje :..: Beertje :. that is why I don't need what my neighbour has..I have enough already

[13:47] Roo: is it fair to criticize all Chinese generically?

[13:47] Ada Zaurak: we see a perverted financial industry in Wall Street and city of London, we see collabsing traffic in big cities, ppl eat shit and get fat ...

[13:48] herman Bergson: no..neither is it fair to criticize all Western economists....

[13:48] Roo: true true

[13:48] herman Bergson: There ARE people who fight against this endless abusing of earthly resources....

[13:48] herman Bergson: in many ways....

[13:48] Roo: indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: but they are not the majority.....

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed, some go with and some go against, its a balance act sort of

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is no balance there Bekiita..I wish it was....

[13:49] herman Bergson: All economists KNOW that infinite growth is an absurd idea...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ah, yes that can never work, says itself

[13:50] herman Bergson: but they are tied up with so many interests..status...position....that they can't just leave their way of thinking behind

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: better get to a good level and hold it there instead of try get more and more all time

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: after a while it will collapse

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cause there is no more to get

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: what is a good level?

[13:51] herman Bergson: There we go, Beertje....:-))

[13:51] Roo: and who is it that determines just exactly "what is good" ??

[13:51] herman Bergson: and another one :-))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...you see....it is not just a simple issue here at stake....

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: good question but many companies even they do well shut down factories cause they want to get even more by making it cheaper somewhere else

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: for ex in sweden Adidas shut the JOFA plant making hockey equipment for very long here even they did well

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cause Adidas wanted growth

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita..... one final remark here...bit off topic but something to think about

[13:53] herman Bergson: Lately there was a short article in my newspaper...

[13:53] herman Bergson: The headline said... Philips wants to do its shareholders a favor....

[13:54] herman Bergson: What was Philips planning to do...?

[13:54] herman Bergson: It had planned to buy its own stocks so that there would be less, so got maore value for shareholders...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: when a company is growing the shareholders often get a lot of share, but of the growth stops they get nothing

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how i see it working

[13:55] herman Bergson: and it would accomplish that goal by kicking out 1500 people and cancel their jobs.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: to produce it cheaper in another place

[13:55] Ada Zaurak: alhamdillulah

[13:55] herman Bergson: What is the function and role of a company in our society?

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: the Jofa factories work is now all made in china where it cost less = more money to the shareholders

[13:56] herman Bergson: We are far away from China now, but it will have to face this question tooo in its future....

[13:56] herman Bergson: Maybe its conceptual system comes up with better answers than ours....

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: its to simple

[13:57] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your vivid participation again....:-)

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: our systems had more facets

[13:57] herman Bergson: We'll continue our quest next Tuesday :-))

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: there were different ideas about how companies should act

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: ok

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: maybe they can stop the whole process and prevent all the problems we have

[13:58] Corronach: Thanks herman

[13:58] Ada Zaurak: ty, Herman

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: oops...too late:)

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: what i think was really tragic about JOFA is people been working there all their lives was just showed out without any new job

[13:58] herman Bergson: We'll get to that idea in the next lecture Beertje

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: ㋡

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:59] Ada Zaurak: bye folks

[13:59] Mikki Louise: ty herman and classmates

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Mikki, Bejiita :-)

[14:00] Mikki Louise: ㋡

492: Daoism continued some more...

In my previous lecture I told you that a google search on Daoism generated more than 3.5 million hits. So, you may conclude that there still is a lot of information about it.

Yet the history of Daoism is eventually not that positive. Around 1400 Daoism reached its zenith. It became a mix of Confucianis, Buddhism and Daoism.

Around 1849 Daoist and Buddhist temples were destroyed by followers of a strange version of Chinese christianity. The Cultural Revolution (1966-1976) attempted to complete the destruction of Daoism. Daoist Masters were killed or “re-educated.”

But this morning there was an interesting article in my newspaper, which shows again that it is worthwhile to immerse in philosophy.

Let me quote Anne Meijdam, China correspondent of "De Volkskrant", one of the Dutch national newspapers. The headline is: "Xi Jinping points at religion as binder against moral decline.

China has lost its soul and to regain it traditional religions should get more space. Chinese President Xi Jinping would behind the scenes advocate this. 

Xi is worried about the decades of moral decline of the Chinese society, under the influence of the booming Chinese economy.

The rapid economic progress in China is associated with an obsession for a lot of money and material prosperity. President Xi Jinping hopes that Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism could offer the Chinese people moral benchmarks again.

Between 2008 and 2012 approximately 145 thousand officials  were condemned for corruption - an average of 78 convictions a day, according to a report from the Chinese Supreme Court. 

Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism provide the poor part of the people a possible comfort. The lower classes of Chinese society hardly shared in the economic progress. Beijing is afraid of large scale riots. Xi would hope that religion  can function as lightning conductor.

Xi is not the first communist leader who shows an  interest in religion. Former President Jiang Zemin is even said to be a real Buddhists. 

Under apparently the watchful eye of his successor Hu Jintao Confucianism rapidly gained more popularity. That process was until the arrival of Xi subtly promoted, just to fill China's moral vacuum. - END QUOTE

Although there are some shared views in Daoism and Confucianism, like the concept of self-cultivation and this-worldly concern for the concrete details of life, there are big differences.

There is a metaphore. Give a daoist and a confucianist a piece of wood and ask them to make a sculpture of man. 

The daoist would give you back the piece wood, untouched, that is, in tis natural state.The confucianist would give you a piece of wood that is all carved and polished, a real sculpture.

One of the most fundamental teachings of Dao De Jing is that human discriminations, such as in morality (good, bad) and aesthetics (beauty, ugly) generate the troubles and problems of existence 

The clear implication is that the person following the dao must cease ordering his life according to human-made distinctions.

So, it is best to practice wu-wei (non action) in all endeavors, to act naturally and not willfully try to oppose or tamper with how reality is moving.

Confucius and his followers, however, wanted to change the world and be proactive in setting things straight. They wanted to tamper, orchestrate, plan, educate, develop, and propose solutions.

Confucians think they can engineer reality, understand it, name it, control it. The daoist believes the Confucians create a gulf between humans and nature, that weakens and destroys us.

We'll see which of the two philosophies / religions will be the best lightning conductor for China.

The Discussion

[13:15] herman Bergson: Thank you...:-))

[13:15] Nectanebus claps

[13:15] Nectanebus: Nice jokes at the end there ;)

[13:15] Abinoam Nørgaard: wonderful

[13:15] Daruma Boa claps

[13:16] herman Bergson: the floor is yours ...:-)

[13:16] Bejiita Imako: yay

[13:16] Nectanebus: Wow, where to begin?

[13:16] Daruma Boa: anywhere^^

[13:16] Abinoam Nørgaard: a quick question, because i missed the previous session. you've been referring to daoism as a religion now. what makes it a religious, as opposed to purely philosophical system?

[13:16] .: Beertje :.: does wu-wei lead to anything?

[13:16] .: Beertje :.: anything?

[13:17] herman Bergson: Oh that is easy to see Abi.....

[13:17] herman Bergson: Daoism had developed into an institutionalized religion around 1400...with temples, rituals, belief in magic and alchemy etc.

[13:18] Abinoam Nørgaard: oh, i see. and people still practice those?

[13:18] Nectanebus: For sure

[13:18] herman Bergson: yes...Tai Chi and the theory of yin/yang are related to daoism

[13:18] Abinoam Nørgaard: right. thanks for the answer

[13:19] Nectanebus: All Wudang styles come from Daoist teachings

[13:19] Nectanebus: As opposed ot Shaolin, which is Buddhist

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: i see, wow

[13:19] herman Bergson: It is philosophically interesting from the perpective how it answers ethical questions

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:19] herman Bergson: Does wu-wei lead to anything....?

[13:20] herman Bergson: It does  not mean that you should do nothing....

[13:20] Daruma Boa: i think everything leads to anything

[13:20] xtc yonimyxtc: the poor of china are going to riot whatever religion or philosophy the chinese leaders allow.

[13:20] herman Bergson: yes Daruma it is impossible to do nothing....

[13:20] Daruma Boa: sure herman^^^

[13:20] herman Bergson: That might happen indeed

[13:20] herman Bergson: But this wu-wei idea....

[13:20] Nectanebus: Wu-wei is more to act without intent towards a result, to "go with the flow" entirely regardless of ones own inclinations.

[13:21] Nectanebus: In a sense

[13:21] herman Bergson: it is a kind of attitude towards nature....

[13:21] .: Beertje :.: ah

[13:21] herman Bergson: Don't ask me how to act "natural" in stead of artificial....

[13:22] Nectanebus: haha

[13:22] herman Bergson: Such ideas or actually beliefs what is the natural way of being....I don't know how to interpret that

[13:22] herman Bergson: Do we have to abandon culture and live like the chimpansees or something like that

[13:23] Nectanebus: I'm worried about the reasonings behind China's need for yet more control when they've already go no rights for animals, people, or the environment, but that's more political than philosophical. I think that Confucianism is likely to win out considering the populace, though.

[13:23] herman Bergson: I really don't know how people can have knowledge of the "natural state" of man.

[13:23] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:23] Corronach: i don't think we can survive without a degree of structure, which may seem "unnatural"

[13:24] herman Bergson: that Is my idea too Nectanebus...

[13:24] Corronach whispers: unless it is considered natural that we seek a structure :)

[13:24] Abinoam Nørgaard: for us as humans it is natural

[13:24] Daruma Boa: nature is structure

[13:24] herman Bergson: that is the point Corronach :-)

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] Daruma Boa: ah?

[13:25] Nectanebus: That's an interesting one. I wouldn't say structure itself is a non-Daoist thing, but the idea of being able to rely on it in extremis may well be a phallacy. Look at any legal system, for example. It'd probably be more Daoist to take everything "as it comes" in a courtroom, and more Confucian to allow no through for the individual outside of the law.

[13:25] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol

[13:25] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: really interesting for sure

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah: Christianity is increasing in China also... i wonder if Eastern religions/philosophies are increasing in Western society sequentialiy

[13:26] Nectanebus: fallacy*, talk about a Freudian slip...

[13:26] Nectanebus: Yes, Loo, the 60s certainly happened, haha

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: the sooner cultures meld the better off the world will be.

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah: Due to gobalisation and communication

[13:26] Abinoam Nørgaard: indeed

[13:26] Nectanebus: If we meld coherently instead of segregate within the same tower block

[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't see in increase of eastern religions in the West...

[13:27] herman Bergson: It was popular in the 60s indeed....

[13:27] xtc yonimyxtc: i do not see an increase of eastern religions in the west

[13:27] Daruma Boa: but the 60s are gone

[13:27] Abinoam Nørgaard: buddhism seems to be on the grow, i think

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:27] herman Bergson: but as I said...daoism....3.5 million hits in Google...

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:28] Loo Zeta-Ah: <--- failed="" font="" hippy="">

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: tried and i get something around that indeed

[13:28] herman Bergson: So ..people are interested, I guess

[13:28] herman Bergson: But there is a difference....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: must be something at least

[13:28] Nectanebus: I think there's an increase of Atheism in the west, and the small amount of learning people did in the 60s just got absorbed into "New Age" thought, so now people think Tantra is sexual...I don't trust the West to appreciate outside cultures as anything more than a novelty

[13:28] herman Bergson: between an institutionalized and organized religion

[13:28] Abinoam Nørgaard: true, nectanebus

[13:28] xtc yonimyxtc: buddhism is only on the grow because buddhists are moving west not because westerns, per se, are converting

[13:29] Nectanebus: Interesting point, X, and I agree there

[13:29] herman Bergson: Like you find in China and the interest in ideas of a certain philosophy/religion

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah: Buddhism can give moral order without the guilt

[13:29] herman Bergson: indeed nectanebus....

[13:30] herman Bergson: same with islam  XTC....

[13:30] Nectanebus: eww...

[13:30] xtc yonimyxtc: the west doesn't have to emulate outside cultures as most outside cultures want what the west has.

[13:30] herman Bergson: they build large mosques in the Netherlands....

[13:30] herman Bergson: not because we become muslims but because the muslims come to us

[13:30] Nectanebus: Yup

[13:30] xtc yonimyxtc: yes, professor, same with islam

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: thats correct

[13:31] herman Bergson: That is a point xtc....

[13:31] Nectanebus: And speaking of integration, it's a good example of how people will expatriate without needing to integrate

[13:31] herman Bergson: all want what the West has....its technology, science, prosperity...

[13:31] xtc yonimyxtc: yes, nectanebus

[13:31] herman Bergson: Look at china...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: indeed china make all our stuff now

[13:32] Nectanebus: I don't see Islam getting much of a hold in China, I must say.

[13:32] Daruma Boa: and without thinking about nature^^

[13:32] Daruma Boa: just want want want

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah: The shift is to China and not the West for material benefits now

[13:32] xtc yonimyxtc: true, nectanebus

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: made in china is on almost all things you find even if the company itself making it might be japanese ect.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: they have all their production there

[13:32] herman Bergson: Buddhists and muslims are fighting each other already in Birma

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah: manufacturing occurs in China

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: Parts, steel, iPhones....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yep

[13:33] Nectanebus: Are we getting off-topic here?

[13:33] xtc yonimyxtc: china copy bots western products and resells it cheaper, not so much that anything is shifting there

[13:33] herman Bergson: Could be Nectanebus....

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: not really because people have to make sense of life beyond materialism

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: the thing is that everything moves to materialism nowadays

[13:34] Daruma Boa: sure.sadly

[13:34] herman Bergson: Point is that Confucianism and daoism still pay an important role in China...

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: stuff stuff more stuff and money

[13:34] Loo Zeta-AhLoo Zeta-Ah shows up as failed hippy again

[13:34] Daruma Boa: ppl do not know why they live these days

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: 'money

[13:34] Abinoam Nørgaard: it may seem like a new thing, but it's always been like that

[13:34] Daruma Boa: they are lost

[13:34] Daruma Boa: in too many options

[13:34] xtc yonimyxtc: materialism is important for creature comforts

[13:35] Daruma Boa: it is too much possible

[13:35] Daruma Boa: ppl can not handle this

[13:35] Nectanebus: Well, yeah, I was having a convo with a friend about that the other day, herman

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: But when it is held by the minority

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: over the majority then.... riot

[13:35] herman Bergson: What they observe in china can be observed here too....

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: Religion calms them....

[13:35] Nectanebus: We were wondering whether, lacking a religious angle, atheism has no true ability to structure the morals of a populace, what with mass media being a shallow comparison next to Allah or IHVH

[13:36] herman Bergson: the lack of an clear ethical theory....an answer to the question who/what am I

[13:36] herman Bergson: religions give such answers....but those are religions...

[13:37] Daruma Boa: no religion is bad. only what ppl do or "read" in it

[13:37] Daruma Boa: or want to read in it

[13:37] xtc yonimyxtc: daoist and confucianists will also integrate materialism into their philosophy/religion just as christianity, islam, hinduism, etc has

[13:37] Nectanebus: And it is easier for one to follow a spiritual path to realisation than a mertial path to being a footballer

[13:37] herman Bergson: I would say no, nectanebus....religion is not a necessary condition for the creation of moral ruules

[13:37] Nectanebus: monetary*

[13:37] herman Bergson: Aristotle already has shown us that

[13:37] Daruma Boa: Aristotle is dead^^^

[13:38] Loo Zeta-Ah: I agree with Herman as people use religion to justify their personal positioning

[13:38] Nectanebus: I wouldn't say it's necessary either, to be honest, but there needs to be a reason for people to follow morality that has the same hold as a Godhead, or else, as Western civilization of late has shown, materialism causes greed to rampant excess.

[13:38] Daruma Boa: yes true loo

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Daruma....people die...their ideas can survive however

[13:38] Daruma Boa: they do, but we can now make our own thoughts

[13:38] Daruma Boa: perhaps on the base of Aristotle 

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes indeed....

[13:39] Daruma Boa: live goes on

[13:39] Daruma Boa: and it changes daily

[13:39] xtc yonimyxtc: i don't get the connection of the last phrase about materialism in your sentence about morality, nectanebus

[13:39] herman Bergson: Here we are of topic but the essential question is....is the human being BY NATURE a moral being....?

[13:39] Nectanebus: Well, without the parable of the beggar's last penny and rich people not getting into heaven, there's a lot less care being thrown around.

[13:40] Nectanebus: Oh, Herman, you didn't just go there, did you?

[13:40] Daruma Boa: i guess perhaps yes

[13:40] Nectanebus sweats

[13:40] Daruma Boa: but then comes live^^

[13:40] Daruma Boa: anfd the thoughts

[13:40] Daruma Boa: and the rest

[13:40] Daruma Boa: the struggles with live

[13:40] Daruma Boa: life

[13:40] Nectanebus: Gnostics versus Transcendentalists, pick your corner, get your gloves! Soc side blue, psy side red, let's av' it haha

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...I only will refer to the books of Frans de Waal.....check him out...:-)

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: the human being is, by nature or otherwise, a morale being.

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: lol, nectanebus

[13:41] Nectanebus: id versus superego, anyone?

[13:41] Daruma Boa: yup

[13:41] Nectanebus: I@m sorry, I really can't afford to get involved here, I'll start ranting too much

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well, I'd advise you to think it all over :-)

[13:42] Daruma Boa: i think too much i guess

[13:42] Daruma Boa: and i think humans think too much

[13:42] xtc yonimyxtc: rant away, nectanebus

[13:42] Nectanebus: Suffice to say I think people learn their morals, and that they are subjective to an extent for everyone, regardless of deep seated belief, due to emotional and situational circumstance

[13:42] Daruma Boa: they have to learn to feel

[13:43] herman Bergson: I already paid attention to this issue in previous projects...

[13:43] Nectanebus: I@m sure it comes up constantly, haha

[13:43] Daruma Boa: missed it^^^

[13:43] herman Bergson: Oh yes....

[13:43] herman Bergson: So as you notice....

[13:43] Daruma Boa: its the most important thing -i guess°

[13:44] herman Bergson: this discussion a a typical daoist approach of our questions....we go with the flow :-))

[13:44] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:44] .: Beertje :.: i think now I understand wu-wei...:)

[13:44] Nectanebus: heheh

[13:44] herman Bergson: Next time we might behave more confucian :-))

[13:44] Daruma Boa: more???^^

[13:45] Daruma Boa: ok

[13:45] herman Bergson: May I thank you all for your active participation again....

[13:45] Daruma Boa: dito.

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: great!

[13:45] Abinoam Nørgaard: thank you herman, great class

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman:)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: as always ㋡

[13:45] Loo Zeta-Ah: crashed sorry

[13:45] Daruma Boa: have a lovely evening herman. and also the rest of the class.

[13:45] herman Bergson: You too Daruma :-)

[13:45] Nectanebus: Are we finishing eraly today, then?

[13:45] Daruma Boa: nini all

[13:45] Corronach: Thank you herman

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again all

[13:46] Nectanebus: Cool, I'll see you all around, I@m sure

[13:47] Loo Zeta-Ah: Toodle pip and thanks Herman and everybody else I get a lot out of the discussions

[13:47] herman Bergson: thank you Loo

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: good night everyone!

[13:48] Corronach: Good night

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: goodnight:)

[13:48] Nectanebus: NIght all

[13:48] herman Bergson: Bye all :-)

[13:48] xtc yonimyxtc: byby those who are leaving...

[13:48] xtc yonimyxtc: fare well until we meet again...

[13:48] xtc yonimyxtc: oxo...

[13:50] xtc yonimyxtc: Enjoy traveling around Second Life...

[13:50] xtc yonimyxtc: thank you for hosting, professor

[13:50] herman Bergson: Ok xtc :-)