495: An East - West confrontation

In the lectures on Chinese philosophy I have pointed at a number of typical Chinese features, for which there hardly is a counterpart in Western philosophy.

Chinese culture still is  dominated by the long lasting Confucian tradition. Our metaphysical concepts can not be applied in translations of Chinese metaphysics.

The concept of democracy, as we see it, is in fact not available in Chinese thinking and China will have great difficulty integrating our individualistic consumerism in its social system.

But I have said too, that Chinese like we have the same instrument to deal with life: the brain. And I assume, that, biologically, it is the same in all human beings, but the way we use it in our interaction with our environment is different. And that results in different cultures.

But now take this. The point of view of David Hall and Roger Amos in "From Africa to Zen" (2003). They say. that "….WE believe in the ideals that emerged from the French Revolution 

and have found their specific instantiation in documents such as the American Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. 

These ideals we hold to be the guarantees of our individual autonomy, our liberal democracy, and our science and technology - all of which we believe to be the necessary vehicles of progress for all countries and peoples around the world.

We in the scientific, liberal democratic West must recognize that our tendencies toward universalism and the acceptance of objective ideas and values merely advertise the content of our own cultural sensibility. 

The West has masked its ethnocentrism by the claim that its self-understanding has universal applicability. One paradoxical element of our peculiar form of ethnocentricity is the rejection of ethnocentrism. 

 [ Ethnocentrism = the tendency to believe that one's ethnic or cultural group is centrally important, and that all other groups are measured in relation to one's own. ] 

But we do not escape provincialism simply because we make naive claims to objectivity and universality.

The comparison of Chinese and Western cultures is, therefore, the comparison of two sets of ethnocentric beliefs. 

Most of us who occupy a privileged place in a Western democracy consider ourselves autonomous individuals, possessing natural rights, with a faith in our ability to search out the truth of things for ourselves, generally confident that reason and goodwill can solve most of our problems. 

We are respectful of governmental authority when it serves to nurture freedom and autonomy for its citizens, but are perfectly capable of becoming an adversary of the government if it threatens those same values. 

We identify ourselves with ideas, values, and principles that we believe are reasonable and employ our religious, scientific, or political institutions as instruments for the implementation of those ideas and values. 

We deplore censorship and believe that free and open enquiry will result in consensus upon what is true about the need and desires of the majority of human beings.

Among our intellectual elites there is doubtless a great deal less naive assent to these beliefs, but the trust in objectivity lingers. 

The visions of natural and social scientists, and of philosophers too, still reflect the belief that there is an objective order to things and that the discovery of this order requires the responsible application of the methods of logic and science.

This faith extends for many of us into the idea that human beings have objective natures, identifiable characteristics that make us essentially the same from one society or culture to another.""

So far Hall and Amos and I thought….wow. IS this our biggest mistake here indeed…..to believe that, when all is said and done, being human has to mean being pretty much as we are ???????

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

[13:19] herman Bergson: Take your time to digest this argumentation....

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: yes wow

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: just to back to something, did you imply that universalism is in fact the negation of universalism? was that the paradox?

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: go* back

[13:20] herman Bergson: no no....

[13:20] Abinoam Nørgaard: oh good

[13:20] herman Bergson: with universalism is meant the idea that there exist universal laws or maybe even universal concepts

[13:20] Abinoam Nørgaard: right

[13:21] Dagg: is that something that leads us to Plato by chance ?

[13:21] Abinoam Nørgaard: but to universalize is to impose one version of what those laws or concepts might be, no?

[13:21] herman Bergson: But the question here is.... Are Hall and Amos right?

[13:22] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think they are generalizing a great deal

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:22] herman Bergson: That question would lead to a metaphysical debate on the status of universlas , I am affraid, Abi...

[13:23] Abinoam Nørgaard: hehe yes, i know, let's not go there

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes indeed they are....:-)

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:23] herman Bergson: The first time I read it, I thought...oh wow...good point....

[13:23] herman Bergson: But after a few minutes I thought..oh wow...totally wrong :-)

[13:24] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol yes

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:24] herman Bergson: SO what could be questionable here?

[13:25] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think i can hear the crickets... lol

[13:25] Dagg: I think it would be important to understand what is previous to those ideals, where do they come from

[13:25] herman Bergson: Now about this statement: "the acceptance of objective ideas and values merely advertise the content of our own cultural sensibility. "

[13:26] herman Bergson: Exactly that aspect I have no problems with Daggash....

[13:26] herman Bergson: that may be cultural sensibilities :-)

[13:27] Dagg: or... they could be part of an evolutionary process

[13:27] herman Bergson: But what is said here is that we, the West, feel superior to the rest of the world....

[13:27] herman Bergson: and that for centuries the Chinese have the same attitude :-)

[13:28] Dagg: yes indeed

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ok well that can be true

[13:28] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:28] herman Bergson: so "two sets of ethnocentric beliefs"

[13:28] Corronach: i think it is true.

[13:28] Corronach: and i think neither are superior.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: everyone thinks their own system is the best so to say

[13:28] Corronach: the difficulty is exactly as you have described it...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: compared to others

[13:29] Corronach: people will view others through the lens of their own beliefs, attitudes, values, experiences etc

[13:29] herman Bergson: But there is one weak point in this argumentation....

[13:30] herman Bergson: It is claimed that science is in fact just a cultural sensibility....just like Chinese ideas on reality are....

[13:30] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:30] herman Bergson: so science is part of our ethnocentric attitude....

[13:30] herman Bergson: and that is in my opinion plainly untrue...

[13:31] herman Bergson: It is claimed that "being human has to mean being pretty much as we are"....with the emphasis on WE Westerners....

[13:31] Mikki Louise: I am not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion, but it seems to fit, somehow.... I have a friend, posted on facebook yesterday... she had an app for her phone, for photography. She thought it was for different effects in your snapshots.. and discovered it is meant for asian girls.. it modifies their picture to look more 'western'... bigger eyes, pinker skin tone, etc.

[13:31] Corronach: perhaps it is looking at "science" as a way of viewing things. do the Chinese have another way of viewing things that comes to the same conclusion as "science"?

[13:32] Corronach: (sorry i know i'm speaking in riddles now)

[13:32] herman Bergson: And that is the question Corronach....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: there are two matters here....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: sciense is our way to understand nature but the Chinese might see it in another way, i don't know

[13:33] herman Bergson: Culture ...Mikki refers to that and science

[13:33] herman Bergson: Is physics, einstein's relativity theory, chemistry, biochemistry...is that just a cultural sensibility?

[13:33] Corronach: here's a basic example of what i mean. let's say someone says "god did [whatever]" and a westerner says "no, science did [whatever]". does it really matter, since [whatever] was done?

[13:33] Mikki Louise: my friend felt strongly that the app is racist... yet it is developed by asians, for asians. so, is it racist.. and why do they aspire to look western?

[13:34] Dagg: herman .. what do you mean by culture, do you say its a sort of conditioning ?

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: our culture might embrace science more maybe bur science itself is not a culture

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: but

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is what I am thinking too Bejiita...

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] herman Bergson: and Dagg...what is culture....

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is the way how we look at our environment and interact with it

[13:35] herman Bergson: but regarding this looking at our environment....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: culture is what we create and the way we do that in

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: i d say

[13:36] herman Bergson: if it is about a religious of metaphysical view...we may differ completely in interpretation and ensuing interaction....

[13:36] herman Bergson: But if it is about sending a rocket to the moon....

[13:36] herman Bergson: the americans do exactly the same as the Chinese....

[13:37] herman Bergson: the mathematics for such an operation are independent of any culture...or said differently..

[13:37] herman Bergson: applicable in all cultures

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: they learn from each other i guess

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: what is needed to send a rocket in space

[13:38] Mikki Louise: it's not how but why send the rocket

[13:38] herman Bergson: Sure...western mathematicians invented the math....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: at least they've got the concept from there since us and russia have done it befopre

[13:38] Mikki Louise: different forms of imperialism, different motives to demonstrate supremacy

[13:38] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think the east/west dichotomy is to an extent entirely artificial. speaking of mathematics, we used arabic numerals, than originated in india. so what makes the basis of "western" mathematics western?

[13:39] herman Bergson: but in old India they already knew about this mathematics...like the Arab mathematicians in 1100 A.D did too

[13:39] Dagg: alright..so can we say that the way we look at our environment is the part that create division between the cultures even in our global world, right ?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes I think you could say that, Dagg.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: or even one step further....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa that seems indeed logical

[13:40] herman Bergson: the dominating religion in a given area on earth decided how we developed

[13:40] Dagg: yes we fight wars for those things

[13:40] herman Bergson: Not only that....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: to many wars

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cause of that

[13:41] Abinoam Nørgaard: well, it's mostly for oil and natural resources, but ok

[13:41] herman Bergson: The arabs till 1150 A.D were world famous for their mathematical skills and knowledge....

[13:41] herman Bergson: they were top of the world....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: look at Algebra and similar

[13:41] herman Bergson: When Islam took over this ended abruptly

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: they were pioneers in math

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, islam stopped all development and it seems they still live likein the Middle Ages

[13:42] Abinoam Nørgaard: isn't the height of arabic scholarship actually well within the timeframe of islam?

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: thats sad

[13:42] herman Bergson: But their mathematical research was brought to the West....

[13:42] herman Bergson: Like the books of Aristotle also came by the Arab route!

[13:42] Dagg: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:43] herman Bergson: So claiming that the difference between Western and Chinese philosophy is just a matter of two sets of ethnocentric ideas is to easy....

[13:44] herman Bergson: It leaves out the specific place science has in culture in general

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: much more to it i guess

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: like religion for ex

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: all things come together

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: complicated

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes...China has big cultural problems at the moment, exactly because applied Western science  become more and more influential...

[13:45] herman Bergson: It is the Chinese who assemble our iPhones now....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:46] herman Bergson: where there isn't any technological tradition in that culture

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but they don't have all pieces of the puzzle to make all go together so to say

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: since they have not the rest of our culture

[13:46] herman Bergson: my idea Bejiita

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: well, there were some advances there, paper, gunpowder... there must have been some science and technology behind that, historically speaking

[13:47] herman Bergson: and the result of that is that they have to deal with consumerism as we have now...

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: maybe

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: however i don't think the Chinese understood how gunpowder worked in terms of chemistry, was more like a magic BANG powder

[13:47] herman Bergson: The absurd economic ideas of permanent growth...

[13:48] Abinoam Nørgaard: in that case, it's about methodology, rather than matter

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...next lecture we'll look at the Chinese side of the story

[13:48] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'm looking forward to that ㋡

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: this gets better and better

[13:48] herman Bergson: For now, thank you for your attention and participation again...

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: thank you, herman

[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:49] Dagg: thank you too Herman

[13:49] Bongo: thanks

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: nice ㋡

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all ㋡

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: bye bejita ㋡

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'll be off too, take care everyone

[13:50] Dagg: bye all

[13:50] Mikki Louise: bye

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bye Dagg

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman..see you after next week

[13:50] Corronach: Thanks herman!

[13:51] Corronach: see you Thursday

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight everybody

494: Chinese Otherness continued

How are we to approach the question of Chinese philosophy against the background of the general recognition on the parts of both China and the West of vast  cultural differences? 

In the first place, we had better not overload the term philosophy with its Western connotations. 

What serves as "philosophic thinking" in China is significantly different from that with which most of us are familiar. 

Second, we must be prepared to understand the differences between Chinese and Western thinking as both cause and consequence of those broader cultural differences perhaps more easily observed.

In the previous lecture I referred to Gerald Heard's words: For Europeans it is the question "Where am I?"; for Chinese it is all about the question "What am I?"

Consequently, the West was focused on discovering the objective nature of things. Philosophers on metaphysics searched out the BEING of things. 

Epistemologists wondered how we can know the reality behind its appearances in our senses.

But the overriding concern of the Chinese has always been the establishment of harmonious relationships with their social ambience.  Their "philosophic" thinking is always concrete, this-worldly, and, above all, practical.

Western understandings of the way things hang together rest on the presumption that order and harmony must be vigilantly maintained by appeal to a creative agent or laws of nature and principles.

Ancient Greek thinking began with the question "What is there?" Elements like air, water, fire or atoms or the like. This lead to metaphysics, "ontologia generalis" on the one hand and a "scientia generalis", the more physical and scientific approach to BEING.

The whole conceptual framework which comes with this metaphysics is useless, if you want to apply it to Chinese thinking. It never developed a cosmology, an explanation of BEING, like we did.

This is reflected in the character of the Chinese language. Let me quote from "From Africa to Zen":

The usual Chinese equivalents for "being" and "not-being" are YU and WU. But the meanings of these terms are markedly different from their uses in Indo-European languages. 

The Chinese YU means not that something "is" in the sense that it  exists; it means rather that "something is present." "To be" is "to be available," "to be around." 

Likewise, "not be" means "not to be around." Thus, the Chinese sense of "being" overlaps with "having." A famous line from the Taoist classic the Tao Te Ching, often translated as "Not-Being is superior to Being," may as easily be translated "Not-having is superior to having". end quote -

Stated in a more general way, you could say, that Chinese thinking looks at the things how they are here and now and in harmony with their environment.

For that you don't need an established structure of the universe, organized by laws of nature and principles. You only need to look at things in there actual context.

The dominant meaning of order in the West is associated with uniformity and pattern regularity. In its most general sense, this "logical" or "rational" ordering is expressed in terms of the structure, or logos, of the cosmos. 

The Chinese understanding of order is one in which the natural and social worlds comprise concrete particulars whose uniqueness is essential to any context to which they belong.

This is just an example how different the West and China looked at metaphysical interpretations of the world we live in. They both have a different starting point.

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Routledge History of World Philosophies, vol 3, History of Chinese Philosophy (2009)

An Introduction to Chinese Philosophy - Karyn L. Lai, Oxford 2008

Chinese Philosophy, P. Carus, 1902

A Brief History of chinese Philosophy. D.T. Suzuki, 1914

From Africa to Zen, ed. R.Solomons & K. Higgins  2003 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^

[13:18] NectanebusNectanebus applauds

[13:19] Gandalf Whinstanes: Thank you.

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free :-)

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: i am

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: impressed.

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: :-)

[13:19] Nectanebus: Yeah, some real heavy concepts and wordings today ;)

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: is our way of thinking more complicated than the Chinese way of thinking/

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: aaa very interesting

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: ?

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: i guess it is

[13:20] herman Bergson: Well I am impressed myself by the huge difference in perception of reality between the West and China

[13:20] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje....

[13:20] Gandalf Whinstanes: I am new to this, pardon my simplicity. When you say they have different starting points, does that mean they meet on things at some point?

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: we use lot of physics and complicated formulas to describe the world, the chinese i guess just are

[13:20] herman Bergson: Because this relates to how we look(ed) at the Chinese for centuries...

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: try to be in harmony with nature and then its good

[13:21] ἀρετή: hmm..

[13:21] herman Bergson: That has been the case Bejiita....

[13:21] herman Bergson: But the weird thing is....

[13:21] ἀρετή: since when has the Chinese been in harmony with nature?

[13:21] Nectanebus: IN thought if not action, areyn, for a while

[13:21] herman Bergson: eventually everyone likes to use the laws of nature and physics...

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: well i guess so cause thats where u learn in detail how everything rweally work for the curious minded

[13:22] herman Bergson: Your remark, Arayn, is typical for our approach of the situation....

[13:22] ἀρετή: with one difference.. :)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Because you apply YOUR concept of harmony to Chinese thinking...

[13:23] Nectanebus: I'm kind of interested by the part about how "Chinese" thought focuses less on "why" things are, and more on the use in context. Kinda links to their ready acceptance of Communism as an ideal easier than a more "what contingency" American outlook..

[13:23] herman Bergson: and it might well be the case that it doesn't apply at all within their thinking]

[13:24] xtc yonimyxtc: being in harmony with nature keeps you in nature. being in harmony with the universe keeps you universal

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: guess so

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:24] herman Bergson: I agree Bejiita ^_^

[13:25] herman Bergson: But to respond to Nectanebus remark....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Social harmony is one of the ruling principles in Chiese thinking...

[13:25] ἀρετή: I thought it's financial wealth.. .

[13:25] Nectanebus: as opposed to the individualistic Western notions, yeah ;)

[13:26] Nectanebus: and everyone wants wealth if we're talking nations, areyn

[13:26] herman Bergson: So accepting communism in stead of confucianism wasn't such a big difference, technically, I would guess

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: i did, too, areyn

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: financial harmony

[13:27] xtc yonimyxtc: the Chinese warlords would differ on that

[13:27] herman Bergson: I think China is in a deep cultural crisis at the moment....

[13:27] Nectanebus: That's kind of my logic as well, Herman. Also like how Capitalism was taken up in America easily off the back of Social Darwinism et cetera, it's all how far back you trace the lines heh

[13:27] Nectanebus: sorry, do continue

[13:27] herman Bergson: no you are right Nectanebus....

[13:28] Gandalf Whinstanes: Is China going through the same thing Japan did after mixing with us?

[13:28] Nectanebus: Interesting idea, Gandalf...

[13:28] herman Bergson: China is now absorbing consumerism and capitalism in its system....and these are alien aspects of society to them...

[13:28] Corronach: it's quite a shame.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: dont knowing how to handle it so spins out of control

[13:29] herman Bergson: But on the other hand Chinese are as human as we are and have the same brain layout ....

[13:29] Gandalf Whinstanes: then the decadence and greed sets in, then the generation gap.

[13:29] Nectanebus: Phrenology be damned!

[13:29] herman Bergson: so greed , pleasure , etc...are also known to them....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: we all work the same way basically yes

[13:29] ἀρετήἀρετή smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: no no not phrenology...that is nonsense...

[13:29] Nectanebus: BUt yeah, certainly generation gaps seem to be a defining point of cultural loss over the past 40 years especially

[13:30] Nectanebus: Yeah, I know, I was having a giggle with the phrenology thing.

[13:30] herman Bergson: just simple neurobiological properties of the human being...

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think i was trying to say our level of it. whereas they've lived harmoiously, capitalism injects a greater competitive nature.

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: kind of messes things up a bit.

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: and the generation gap i think is the sudden embracing of technology.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gandalf, something like that may be the case....

[13:31] Gandalf Whinstanes: i wonder if their kids will have a high suicide rate like japan.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Competition was not one of their social values.....harmony is...

[13:31] ἀρετή: the generation gap seems to be asian parents sending their kids to be educated in the western world.. coming back with a western thinking to the eastern world..

[13:31] Nectanebus: That's an interesting one

[13:31] Nectanebus: But then we did the same in the 60s

[13:32] herman Bergson: and in the 20s too...

[13:32] Gandalf Whinstanes: it created a gap as well.

[13:32] Nectanebus: These cultural bleed throughs may all be long overdue teething proccesses, to some extent.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah'

[13:32] Gandalf Whinstanes: now parenting is in trouble in my opinion, as a result.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Betrand Russell and John Dewey lectured in China...

[13:32] Nectanebus: names...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Leading philosophers in those days Nectanebus....

[13:33] herman Bergson: un the UK and the US...

[13:33] Nectanebus: Ah, analytics and such

[13:33] Nectanebus: Sorry, I'm better with concepts than the creators thereof  [13:33] herman Bergson: yes and pragmatism....

[13:33] Gandalf Whinstanes: Do Chinese intellects look at us as inferior, equal, or superior.

[13:33] herman Bergson: but it was all overruled by communism in 1949

[13:33] ἀρετή: as inferior..

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: I feel our cultures are definitely inferior to theirs, meaning America.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Good question Gandalf...

[13:34] herman Bergson: but Ido not know the answer...

[13:34] Nectanebus: I@m sure gwailo and gaijin are as loaded terms for 20-something Chinese kids as certain slurs were for us in the 70s..

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: They've had millennia to learn to get along.

[13:34] Nectanebus: Chinese/Japanese*

[13:34] herman Bergson: They have always looked at us as an inferior species....rude, clumsy and barbaric

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: valid

[13:35] Nectanebus: Shinto helps in those circumstances, methinks

[13:35] Nectanebus: Being descended directly from Gods kind of gives people superiority complexes sometimes...

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: what are 'methinks'?

[13:35] Gandalf Whinstanes: Their culture is much older and less conflicted than ours.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: huess so

[13:36] Gandalf Whinstanes: thats where i think they have advantage. we have no culture really.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: guess

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...I don't know how things are now in that respect....

[13:36] Nectanebus: Sorry, "methinks" is old slang for "I think".

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: ok..thank you ㋡

[13:36] Nectanebus: np

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is a bit too fast Gandalf, to say that we have no culture....

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: well, hopefully given the age of the culture, these new events will only be a ripple, not a break.

[13:37] herman Bergson: just being a society is culture and not nature

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: But we are splintered and divided.

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: and young.

[13:37] Corronach: i would agree with you, Herman

[13:37] herman Bergson: So  many cultures in a melting pot Gandalf :-)

[13:37] Nectanebus: BUt all cultures have bits of others. English is Latin+Saxon+French, Rome harkened back to Egypt, yaddadeedoo

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: i would disagree.

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think the melting pot was all hype.

[13:38] Nectanebus: haha

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: whatever was put into it was diminished.

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: not combined or refined.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Nectanabus.....but we have little understanding of Chinese cuture

[13:38] Nectanebus ponders

[13:38] herman Bergson: The chinese..like the Japanese use Western science...yes...

[13:39] xtc yonimyxtc: i agree to an extent, gandalf - cultural melding takes time

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Gandalf...we still live in a world which is divided, not uniting....

[13:39] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think our culture, specifically, is conflicted because we have no harmony. Everyone is hyphenated something, not americans.

[13:39] ἀρετή: is it possible to create a new culture?

[13:39] Nectanebus: I think we focus more on our differences as vilification rather than areas to explore as avenues of learning about cultures. Kind of like nikhabs, there's so many layers to their meanings and most Westerners think all women that wear one are persecuted Mary Sues...

[13:40] Nectanebus: Interesting point, areyn...

[13:40] Nectanebus: Maybe it's a worry of being proud of any culture when we're in a politically correct society

[13:40] Nectanebus: Thus we all go grey by lowest common denominator politic

[13:41] herman Bergson: I can not predict the future Arayn, but I guess....not in our lifetime ever...

[13:41] Nectanebus has no answers here, only questions

[13:41] Nectanebus: Seems to be the problem of our age, though

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: i am not a hyphenated citizen and i am a first generation born citizen of an officially declared multicultural country. i was taught by my immigrant parents to take up the main, historic culture of my country

[13:41] Nectanebus: "Why can't we all just....get along?"

[13:41] Nectanebus: I think you've hit the nail, xtc ;)

[13:42] Gandalf Whinstanes: political correctness is really the ending of free speech and expression. we remain divided over petty issues, which allows us to ignore the worldy ones.

[13:42] Gandalf Whinstanes: the Chinese move as one it seems.

[13:43] herman Bergson: I think all becomes too much speculation here now :-)

[13:43] Nectanebus: Bound to happen, haha

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] ἀρετή: sorry.. goes back to the lesson :)

[13:43] herman Bergson: so to focus again on the main issue today....

[13:43] herman Bergson: we can observe that our metaphysics do not fit in with Chinese thinking....

[13:44] herman Bergson: In Chinese there are no words for concepts we use....and that is remarkable...

[13:45] herman Bergson: this difference is cause and consequence of a certain culture...

[13:45] herman Bergson: The way we live causes ideas and the ideas lead to new behavioral patterns...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: an amazing fact if you see the difference between Western and Chinese philosophy

[13:46] Gandalf Whinstanes: we are at a point in history where the cultures are colliding?

[13:46] Gandalf Whinstanes: with china becoming most wealthy.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: could say that i guess

[13:46] herman Bergson: And you can witness every day in the news how this affects us and China as a society...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well Gandalf..

[13:47] Gandalf Whinstanes: when you say society, you mean both of us together? or individually?

[13:47] herman Bergson: if you take into account the collapse of communism in 1989 and the switch to capitalist methods in China today..yes ...I guess you are right

[13:48] Nectanebus: It's interesting how China's almost being set up as "The Second Red Menace". American media is already "othering" them in the same way as they did Russia during the Cold War.

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: Other?

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: whats that mean?

[13:48] Nectanebus: To "other" a person, uhh..

[13:48] herman Bergson: TO feel united you need an enemy Gandalf...:-)

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: ahhhh.

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: us and them.

[13:49] Nectanebus: It's identifying as "us" and "them".

[13:49] Nectanebus: yeah

[13:49] Gandalf Whinstanes: well, thats our specialty.

[13:49] herman Bergson: And since the Russians are no threat anymore, the US needs a new enemy, I guess

[13:49] Gandalf Whinstanes: thats our sickness.

[13:49] Nectanebus: And Communism's the same threat they had for Russia and Vietnam, so third strike?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Not a sickness Gandalf...basic human behavior...

[13:50] herman Bergson: like all primates have a sense of "us" and "the others"

[13:50] herman Bergson: still tribal thinking...:-)

[13:50] Gandalf Whinstanes: I would say given Americas war mongering ways, and success with it, we are not basic in those aspects.

[13:50] Nectanebus: Pack mentality, et cetera, starting of society in monkeys and such

[13:51] herman Bergson: No Gandalf that is a way more complex discussion....not meant for this class :-)

[13:51] Nectanebus: heh

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well, I guess we saved the world again today....

[13:51] xtc yonimyxtc: the 'new enemy' is the islamist terrorists, not china

[13:51] Gandalf Whinstanes: ironic.

[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation :-))

[13:51] ἀρετή: can we just send all the people who think of us and them to the moon.. they'll see just one Earth

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Gandalf Whinstanes: yes.

[13:52] Gandalf Whinstanes: thank you Herman.

[13:52] Nectanebus: Thanks Herman, interesting as always :)

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yues

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: very

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:52] xtc yonimyxtc: thank you very much, Professor Bergson.

[13:52] Gandalf Whinstanes: ciao.

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Corronach: Thanks Herman

[13:52] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita :-)

493: Chinese Otherness

So far I have pointed at apparent similarities between Chinese and our philosophy and ideas. But what about that Chinese otherness? Do our philosophical concepts apply to Chinese philosophy?

The most familiar associations of the word Chinese in our popular discourse are "puzzling," "confusing".  In Dutch we use to say "This is Chinese to me"  to tell that you don't understand at all what is explained, for instance.

I found an interesting chapter in "From Africa to Zen" by David Hall and Roger Adams (2003) with a fascinating explanation of the otherness of Chinese thinking.

"Late in the evening of june 4, 1989, government tanks rolled into Beijing's Tiananmen Square, the symbolic center of China, to clear the square of protesters.

The news media have provided vivid accounts of events apparently similar to the Tiananmen incident: protesters with placards and loudspeakers 

exhorting liberal reforms and proclaiming certain victory for their cause; soldiers, in helmets and khaki uniforms, firing upon their fellow citizens. 

Were we to look at Tiananmen through Chinese eyes, however, would we really see an event explicable in the terms used to explain student protests in our own country 

or, for that matter, the broader acts of governmental violence in the Middle East, South Africa, or Eastern Europe? Instinctively, we believe that pain and the brutality that causes it are the same around the globe.

But how are we to interpret the incident at Tiananmen as a democratic revolt if in our democracy there is  a prevailing conception of personhood that entails natural rights, free choice, independence, autonomy, and so on, 

while in China such values, far from being self-evident and normative, have traditionally been regarded by even the sagest Chinese as sociopathic?"

The Chinese, then, may look different to us. If you knew how they thought / think about us?! Barbaric, clumsy, tactless and vulgar. Westerners even got the nickname "foreign devil".

A popular saying in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries captured this impression of the intruding foreigner as unmannered and graceless: 

"The sage fears nothing in this world. save for one thing only: the foreign devil attempting to speak Chinese."

It hasn't been always this way. When the jesuit Matteo Ricci (1551 - 1610) came to China, he found there, according to his reports, a humane and eminently civilized people.

Individuals such as Leibniz (1646 -1716) and Voltaire (1694 - 1778) often proclaimed the knowledge and virtues of the Chinese to be superior to those of Europeans.

It was Leibniz himself who discovered the binary structure of the Yi Ching hexagrams. But it was Hegel (1770 - 1831), who came up with an unsympathetic interpretation of Chinese civilization.

At the time of the Industrial revolution, when Europe and America marched under the banner of scientific and industrial progress, the evaluation of Chinese culture was described in terms like inert, backward-looking and dying.

Or  take this: "The Chinese are naturally conservative because their written language is rigid and inflexible, rendering the task of forming new words extremely difficult.  

And the people  who are hampered in forming new words are also hampered in their conception of new ideas and the discovery of new truths." ("Chinese Philosophy" by dr. P. Carus. 1902)

Things like Maoism since 1949 and The Cultural revolution, haven't contributed to a more positive opinion about Chinese civilization.

The religious writer Gerald Heard (1889 - 1971) once characterized the civilizations of Europe, India, and China in terms of a fundamental question presumably asked by the thinkers and seers of each tradition. 

For the European that question was "Where am I?" Curiosity about the nature of the external world led to the development of the natural and social sciences. 

Indians asked the question "Who am I?" and as a consequence discovered subtle techniques of spiritual self-examination and articulation. 

The Chinese asked the question "What am!?" This question was answered in terms of rituals and roles establishing the parameters of one's identity as a social being.

To  be continues….

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: T….  Thank you... :-)

[13:18] Ada Zaurak: ty, Herman

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] Corronach: :)

[13:18] herman Bergson: Guess your brains are milling all info :-)

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: hmm that was something indeed

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:19] Corronach: Bejiita will start us off. :)

[13:19] herman Bergson: The most important point is....

[13:20] herman Bergson: in 1984 a Chinese student said "We need mere democracy,tho I don't know what it is..."

[13:20] herman Bergson: The thing is....there is no word for democracy in Chinese....not a word that expresses the same concept as how we understand democracy

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: cause they have never experienced anything like that or?

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:21] Ada Zaurak: what about Hongkong and Taiwan?

[13:21] herman Bergson: It was never present in their frame of mind Bejiita....

[13:21] Ada Zaurak: and 1984 is 30 years ago, and world and china especially is transforming in highspeed

[13:21] herman Bergson: Hongkong, Taiwan....?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Hongkong is british...well was...

[13:22] Ada Zaurak: yes

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Ada...and that is the big problem.....

[13:22] Ada Zaurak: what influences has the history of Hongkong and the 10.000.000 ppl there to the rest of china?

[13:22] herman Bergson: I talked about that in my previous lecture....

[13:23] Ada Zaurak: i'm sorry when i bring old Kamellen into the discussion ,-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: The problem is that the conceptual world of Chinese thinking is largely formed by Confucianism and Daoism....

[13:24] herman Bergson: It means...they look in a different way at reality...

[13:25] herman Bergson: some Chines scholar once said...

[13:25] herman Bergson: the reason why China never developed  biology or zoology is

[13:25] herman Bergson: because...when a Chinese sees a fish he first thinks of how it will taste

[13:26] herman Bergson: he can't look at it in the emotionless way like westerners do

[13:26] herman Bergson: You could say.....

[13:26] herman Bergson: we can make nature an OBJECT of study....emotionless, rational....

[13:27] herman Bergson: A Chinese is first one with nature...from a daoist point of view for instance

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thus Chinese lack a lot of concepts we use and visa versa...

[13:28] herman Bergson: But yet they are integrating at high speed our consumerism into their society...

[13:29] herman Bergson: And that leads to huge corruption.....to begin with

[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe this is a bit too much for you? :-)

[13:30] Ada Zaurak: corruption in the meaning of political corruption?

[13:31] herman Bergson: corruption in the meaning of making money based on for instance your position

[13:31] Mikki Louise: what are they missing that leads to the corruption? Italy also has much corruption.. Russia too... another society embracing consumerism

[13:31] herman Bergson: Russia has amazed me greatly....

[13:32] herman Bergson: When the communist system collapsed ...in no time there was a well organized maffia

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is one thing....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Basically you can say that corruption doesn't occur when people have strong moral standards....

[13:33] herman Bergson: with respect to honesty, justice, fairness and values like that

[13:34] Roo: good morning all

[13:34] Mikki Louise: but most societies have a group that leans towards corrupt practice as a means to do business .. just as most societies have a form of fried bread

[13:34] herman Bergson: So when a society is corrupt these moral standards seem to be absent

[13:34] herman Bergson: not present

[13:34] Mikki Louise: there are commonalities despite our different teachings

[13:34] Ada Zaurak: but also when there is the absence of poverty

[13:35] Ada Zaurak: as more poverty as more corruption

[13:35] herman Bergson: there are many explanations for the presence of corruption in a society....

[13:36] Ada Zaurak: yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: I don't think there is just one with respect to the causes...

[13:36] herman Bergson: except the fact that people don't seem to value certain moral values

[13:37] herman Bergson: even some primates have a sense of fairness.....sharing equally for instance....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: so basically Chinese are all egoistic?

[13:37] herman Bergson: morality IS part of our system....but greed is too unfortunately :-)

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thinking for themselves only

[13:37] Roo: Egocentric is the word you mean

[13:37] herman Bergson: No, you can't say that bejiita....

[13:37] Roo: to write

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i heard at work that they build whole cities that no one can afford to live in so they just stand empty like ghost towns

[13:38] herman Bergson: but the consumerism which is new to china can make a lot of people weak....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Why can't I have what my neighbor has?

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is true.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Just to fake that the economy is growing...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats a real waste i d say

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: build stuff for nothing

[13:39] .: Beertje :.: herman Bergson: Why can't I have what my neighbor has?..sounds childish to me

[13:39] herman Bergson: It will be come an increasing problem for the future Bejiita....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed, can imagine

[13:40] Mikki Louise: they would call it speculation... eventually the population will grow, the demand will be there..so build now while it is cheap

[13:40] herman Bergson: You mean, Beertje, that you don't want  a car too like your neighbor....? He has the same job as you have for instance

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: i don't need a car like my neighbour has

[13:41] herman Bergson: Big problem it that the population doesn't grow Mikki...they still have the one child policy

[13:42] herman Bergson: No not you Beertje....but many look at others...our children already do so...

[13:42] herman Bergson: they want NIKE shoes too like their friends in class

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and an iphone

[13:42] .: Beertje :.: lol Bejiita

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: cause all others have too

[13:42] herman Bergson: oh yes....at least an iPhone

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: thats how it works these days indeed

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: hmm

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: why?

[13:43] herman Bergson: We are destroying ourselves slowly with our consumerism....China is just beginning to discover this way of life

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: not good if escalating out of control though

[13:44] herman Bergson: It adopts the technological and economical infrastructure...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: buy- throw away, buy new - throw away ect.

[13:45] herman Bergson: but it lacks the  underlying conceptual structure of western individualism

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: you need those concepts too i guess

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: to make it manageable

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: we are destroying our earth if we and all the Chinese keep thinking like that

[13:46] herman Bergson: This is why Xi Jinping is looking at religions as some kind of incentive for moral behavior

[13:46] Ada Zaurak: hmmm, is anything here in western world manageable?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...THAT is the present horror scenario....

[13:47] .: Beertje :..: Beertje :. that is why I don't need what my neighbour has..I have enough already

[13:47] Roo: is it fair to criticize all Chinese generically?

[13:47] Ada Zaurak: we see a perverted financial industry in Wall Street and city of London, we see collabsing traffic in big cities, ppl eat shit and get fat ...

[13:48] herman Bergson: no..neither is it fair to criticize all Western economists....

[13:48] Roo: true true

[13:48] herman Bergson: There ARE people who fight against this endless abusing of earthly resources....

[13:48] herman Bergson: in many ways....

[13:48] Roo: indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: but they are not the majority.....

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed, some go with and some go against, its a balance act sort of

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is no balance there Bekiita..I wish it was....

[13:49] herman Bergson: All economists KNOW that infinite growth is an absurd idea...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ah, yes that can never work, says itself

[13:50] herman Bergson: but they are tied up with so many interests..status...position....that they can't just leave their way of thinking behind

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: better get to a good level and hold it there instead of try get more and more all time

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: after a while it will collapse

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cause there is no more to get

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: what is a good level?

[13:51] herman Bergson: There we go, Beertje....:-))

[13:51] Roo: and who is it that determines just exactly "what is good" ??

[13:51] herman Bergson: and another one :-))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...you see....it is not just a simple issue here at stake....

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: good question but many companies even they do well shut down factories cause they want to get even more by making it cheaper somewhere else

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: for ex in sweden Adidas shut the JOFA plant making hockey equipment for very long here even they did well

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cause Adidas wanted growth

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita..... one final remark here...bit off topic but something to think about

[13:53] herman Bergson: Lately there was a short article in my newspaper...

[13:53] herman Bergson: The headline said... Philips wants to do its shareholders a favor....

[13:54] herman Bergson: What was Philips planning to do...?

[13:54] herman Bergson: It had planned to buy its own stocks so that there would be less, so got maore value for shareholders...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: when a company is growing the shareholders often get a lot of share, but of the growth stops they get nothing

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how i see it working

[13:55] herman Bergson: and it would accomplish that goal by kicking out 1500 people and cancel their jobs.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: to produce it cheaper in another place

[13:55] Ada Zaurak: alhamdillulah

[13:55] herman Bergson: What is the function and role of a company in our society?

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: the Jofa factories work is now all made in china where it cost less = more money to the shareholders

[13:56] herman Bergson: We are far away from China now, but it will have to face this question tooo in its future....

[13:56] herman Bergson: Maybe its conceptual system comes up with better answers than ours....

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: its to simple

[13:57] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your vivid participation again....:-)

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: our systems had more facets

[13:57] herman Bergson: We'll continue our quest next Tuesday :-))

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: there were different ideas about how companies should act

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: ok

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: maybe they can stop the whole process and prevent all the problems we have

[13:58] Corronach: Thanks herman

[13:58] Ada Zaurak: ty, Herman

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: oops...too late:)

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: what i think was really tragic about JOFA is people been working there all their lives was just showed out without any new job

[13:58] herman Bergson: We'll get to that idea in the next lecture Beertje

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: ㋡

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:59] Ada Zaurak: bye folks

[13:59] Mikki Louise: ty herman and classmates

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Mikki, Bejiita :-)

[14:00] Mikki Louise: ㋡