531: American Indian Philosophy again...

Frank Gouldsmith Speck (1881-1950), the American anthropologist I mentioned in the previous lecture,  found his work was in part a "salvage operation" to try to capture ethnological material about the American Indians.

This is a difficult operation because there are no written sources from the Indians themselves. All is based on oral tradition.

Then In the first place, there is no one thing that can be called the American Indian belief system. The aboriginal peoples of the North American continent lived in environments quite different from one another and culturally adapted to these environments in quite different ways. 

For each tribe there were a cycle of myths and a set of ceremonies, and from these materials one might abstract for each a particular view of nature.

Secondly it may be easier for us to reconstruct the material life of American indians than the cognitive culture of the American Indians prior to their contacts with Europeans.

The American Indian’s philosophy is embedded in an oral tradition, which makes it quite vulnerable to changes through time.

Yet attempts have been made. In 2004 for instance Anne Waters (ed.) published “American Thought: Philosophical Essays.

As Anne Waters notes, her volume is the first published collection of essays on American Indian philosophy written by American Indians with PhDs in philosophy. As such, it is a landmark, a significant juncture in the continual evolution of Native intellectual life.

On the other hand we have the accounts of the North American "savages" by sixteenth-, seventeenth-, and eighteenth-century Europeans.

They are, however, invariably distorted by ethnocentrism, which today appears so hopelessly benighted as to be more entertaining than illuminating. 

Because the Indians were no christians they had to be true servants of the devil and the spirits they talked about could come from no other place, according to Jesuit observers.

Yet the reconstruction doesn’t need to be a hopeless enterprise. The oral tradition and conceptual heritage still exists.

Among the best of these nostalgic memoirs is John G. Neihardt's classic, Black Elk Speaks, one of the most important and authentic sources available for the reconstruction of an American Indian attitude toward nature.

“… in the 1930s as the nation was roaring into a new form of industrialism a Nebraska poet named Neihardt traveled northward to the reservation of the Oglala Sioux in search of materials for his classic epic work on the history of the West. 

That their conversations and companionship should produce a religious classic, perhaps the only religious classic of this century, is a testimony indeed to the continuing strength of our species.

“Black Elk Speaks” was originally published in 1932, when people still believed that progress and the assembly line were identical 

and that the Depression was but a temporary interlude in an inevitable march toward the millennium.”, as Vine Deloria Jr. writes in the Foreword of the PDF on the Net.

Vine Victor Deloria, Jr. (March 26, 1933 – November 13, 2005) was an American Indian author, theologian, historian, and activist.

"When asked by an anthropologist what the Indians called America before the white man came, an Indian said simply, 'Ours.'"'  

For those of you who are interested in “Black Elk Speaks”, you can find the book at http://stuff.samassaveneessa.info/docs/BlackElkSpeaks.pdf

It is really worth reading…nice homework….

The Discussion

[13:14] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll present to you is about the contrasting world views of Indians and Europeans....Thank you

[13:14] herman Bergson: .

[13:14] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:15] Chantal: Thank you Herman ㋡

[13:15] Gemma Allen: it is a sad situation what has happened to nations here

[13:15] herman Bergson: yes.....

[13:15] Gemma Allen: we took their land which they traveled to live

[13:15] Chantal: cultures you mean Gemma?

[13:15] Gemma Allen: and left little to them

[13:15] Gemma Allen: both

[13:15] herman Bergson: Most painful is how whole cultures aere just wiped out

[13:16] Gemma Allen: their cuture tried to survive even now

[13:16] Gemma Allen: tries

[13:16] Gemma Allen: but is not easy

[13:16] Bejiita Imako: hmm hope it does

[13:16] Gemma Allen: either on the so called reservations we created for them

[13:16] Areyn Laurasia: smallpox wiped out a bit portion of the population..

[13:16] Kip Roffo: The tribes are trying to recruit members of ever-diminishing blood lines ...

[13:16] Gemma Allen: or off these reservations

[13:16] Areyn Laurasia: *big

[13:16] Chantal: really Kip

[13:17] Kip Roffo: Even my mostly Dutch and Irish blood ... is 1/16th Cherokee ...

[13:17] Gemma Allen: well i dont fault that disease problems were not known to either

[13:17] Kip Roffo: enough to qualify for tribal benefits!

[13:17] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:17] Gemma Allen: benefits

[13:17] Kip Roffo: Tho I'd feel like pretender ...

[13:17] Paolo Rousselot: me smiles w/ Kip

[13:17] Chantal: ㋡

[13:17] Gemma Allen: and when a group that can trace itself back tries to get recognition is very difficult

[13:17] herman Bergson: It isn’t the most beautiful part of history....:-(

[13:18] Gemma Allen: no is not

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: indeed not

[13:18] herman Bergson: and the main concept.....being part of nature was completely lost on the incoming europeans....

[13:18] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:18] Gemma Allen: oh

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: i guess these wars between natives and immigrants is what we call the wild west

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: that period

[13:18] Areyn Laurasia: do you speak cherokee?

[13:18] herman Bergson: ANd today with all kinds of environmental problems we begin to realize something

[13:18] Chantal: but look at it from a wider view... isn't this just evolution? thinks Neanderthals...

[13:18] Guestboook van tipjar stand: ZANICIA Chau donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:18] Gemma Allen: not really the wild west was really among the white men

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:19] Paolo Rousselot: no Chantal - afraid not

[13:19] Gemma Allen: who went looking for gold

[13:19] Gemma Allen: no these were not neanderthals or anything like it

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: when i think of it i mostly think about saloon fights gambling and duels

[13:19] herman Bergson: The indians didn’t care at all about gold

[13:19] Zanicia: no, Paolo?

[13:19] Chantal: I didn't mean that Gemma

[13:19] Gemma Allen: ah ok

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: i ve read too much lucky Luke i guess

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:20] Chantal: and Neanderthal was intelligent

[13:20] Kip Roffo: Now it's cool to have indian blood ... my earlier family used to think it akin to beastiality and a shameful secret

[13:20] Areyn Laurasia: smiles at Chantal :)

[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa: rofl bejita

[13:20] Gemma Allen: the south american indians were great nations

[13:20] Gemma Allen: inca

[13:20] Paolo Rousselot: no - not when it was an orchestrated effort at the extinction of an entire race - that hopefully can *never* be called "evolution"

[13:20] Zanicia: good point

[13:20] Chantal: I didn't know that Paolo...

[13:21] Paolo Rousselot: :-(

[13:21] herman Bergson: No this is not a matter of evolution, I would say....

[13:21] Gemma Allen: i am not sure that was a goal

[13:21] Gemma Allen: but it happened

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:21] Paolo Rousselot: I was privileged and honored to know Tatonka Ska, Fourht Kepper of Sitting Bull's Pipe

[13:21] Kip Roffo: *social* evolution? (what a horrible misuse of the word 'social')

[13:21] herman Bergson: While evolution has no goal the Europeans who came to America had.....MONEY

[13:21] Paolo Rousselot: *Fourth

[13:22] Kip Roffo: Paolo -- that is a special honor!

[13:22] Paolo Rousselot: Yes Kip

[13:22] Gemma Allen: and Europe's desire to convert all to christianity too

[13:22] Paolo Rousselot: he was a good friend and wonderful, gentle soul

[13:22] Gemma Allen: ah nice

[13:22] Chantal: :( Gemma horror from Europe

[13:22] Gemma Allen: thre are some nice Native american sites in sl

[13:22] Kip Roffo: So much wisdom is still kept and cherished and passed on ...

[13:22] herman Bergson: That pipe is described in "Black Elk Speaks"......

[13:23] Gemma Allen: where you can visit and learn

[13:23] herman Bergson: what it meant

[13:23] Paolo Rousselot: now even his Pipe, one of the few remaining, has nealry been lost to the wasichu - the white man

[13:23] Daruma Hermine Boa: °°

[13:23] herman Bergson: I guess they want it in a museum Paolo?

[13:23] Paolo Rousselot: and so it is with the Lakota culture

[13:24] Paolo Rousselot: no - his wasichu son has it

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:24] Gemma Allen: the story telling culture is alive here too i think still

[13:24] Paolo Rousselot: and doesn't realize or honor it's tradition and value

[13:24] herman Bergson: that is a sad thing.....

[13:24] Chantal: :(

[13:24] Zanicia: what a shame

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaaw yes

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: sitting bull is a legend

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: very well known

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: remember the young man in Dances with Wolves?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: the one who found the diary in the river?

[13:25] herman Bergson: Read Black Elk about the pipe...he begins his story with describing its meaning

[13:25] Kip Roffo: Yes -- and gave it as a gift at the end ...

[13:25] .: Beertje :.: i already downloaded the book

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: me too

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: Smiles a Lot was his name in the film

[13:25] Kip Roffo: Yes -- do you know him?

[13:25] Zanicia: lovely film...very moving

[13:26] Paolo Rousselot: the Pipe was intended for him - he now has a drug & alcohol treatment center in LA

[13:26] herman Bergson: Never saw the movie.....

[13:26] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:26] Zanicia: please do

[13:26] Kip Roffo: That's an interesting story, Paolo -- do you stay in touch?

[13:26] Gemma Allen: did not know that

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: ah you missed a wonderful movie herman

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: long since i did but have seen it

[13:26] Gemma Allen: you can find it

[13:27] Paolo Rousselot: no - once "Jim" passed much of the family tradition went with him

[13:27] Zanicia: Not like that ghastly Rashomon!!!!

[13:27] Paolo Rousselot: :-(

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aaw

[13:28] Zanicia: Chalk & cheese, Herman. You see 'Dances with Wolves'!

[13:28] herman Bergson: Nice to have such knowledge here present

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: inded

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:28] Paolo Rousselot: but yes Herman, it is precisely their view of the natural world that we need now

[13:28] herman Bergson whispers: I will ZANICIA

[13:28] Gemma Allen: is a good one

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Paolo.....

[13:28] .: Beertje :.: true Paolo

[13:28] Kip Roffo: It's our (my) nation's original 'sin' ... that and slavery. Some things can never be undone ...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:28] Gemma Allen: I have two native american friends in sl

[13:28] herman Bergson: When you contrast both world views......that really is something....

[13:29] Gemma Allen: on in chicago

[13:29] Paolo Rousselot: but we *can* apologize Kip

[13:29] Gemma Allen: one in western Washington

[13:29] herman Bergson: "ours" and "theirs"

[13:29] Zanicia: Kip and Paolo have made all this come alive!

[13:29] herman Bergson: Hello Qwark :-)

[13:29] Kip Roffo: Yes. Bill Clinton apologized ..

[13:29] Qwark Allen: Hey! hey

[13:29] Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•   Helloooooo!  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:29] Qwark Allen: :-)))

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: Qwarkieee

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa: hey q

[13:29] Paolo Rousselot: Hi Qwark

[13:29] Kip Roffo: It may have helped some

[13:29] Zanicia: Hi there Q

[13:29] Gemma Allen: a bit late

[13:29] .: Beertje :.: hello Qwark

[13:29] Qwark Allen: omg nice to see you all

[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa: lol

[13:29] herman Bergson: But the damage is already done.....:-(

[13:30] Daruma Hermine Boa: only a bit....

[13:30] Qwark Allen: taking the job of rodney!

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: unfortunately yes, since a long time

[13:30] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:30] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:30] Gemma Allen: OMG!!!

[13:30] Gemma Allen: omg

[13:30] Daruma Hermine Boa: rofl

[13:30] Gemma Allen: no

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:30] Gemma Allen: have not seen rodney in months

[13:30] Kip Roffo: Remorse only counts if it's backed up with changes of heart. I'm not so sure we wouldn't find some way of doing it all over again ...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed not me either

[13:30] Gemma Allen: used to pop in once in a while

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: when I first met these wonderful people I simply *had* to apologize

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: not that I or my ancestors played a role - they didn't

[13:31] Zanicia: aw

[13:31] Chantal: Loves you for that Paolo ㋡

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: but I am wasichu

[13:31] Chantal: :0 yes

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: and for that I still carry part of the responsibility

[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: a wasichu who values them

[13:32] Kip Roffo: Well, my 1/16th Cherokee blood tries to forgive the other 15/16ths :o>

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: :-)

[13:32] Zanicia: Are we all? Is that the name from all Am Indians?

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: very much Areyn

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes....it must be a weird feeling....when you look at history and all what has happend and then face the people themselves

[13:32] Gemma Allen: only one of many tribes

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: :-)

[13:32] Gemma Allen: is not a good one for sure

[13:33] Gemma Allen: but i go to powwows sometimes

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: but isn't that the template we need to be thinking of now?

[13:33] Gemma Allen: festivals held by tribes

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: with all the peoples of the world?

[13:33] herman Bergson: With respect to nature eventually the American Indians were right and the wasichu were wrong.....

[13:33] Gemma Allen: dances and costumes

[13:33] Gemma Allen: BEAUTIFUL!!

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: yes Herman

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: sh sounds nice Gemma

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:34] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:34] herman Bergson: and when we can get those dollar signs out of our eyes maybe all will see it

[13:34] Chantal: but isn't that just the american dream ㋡ the nightmare of the rest of the world :)

[13:35] Paolo Rousselot: afraid so Chantal

[13:35] Paolo Rousselot: or all the oligarchs more likely

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes it is no longer the privilege of Americans anymore at present

[13:36] Chantal: so true

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well be for we become all too gloomy and pessimistic ...:-))

[13:36] Paolo Rousselot smiles

[13:36] herman Bergson: Let me than you all for your participation.....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: there is more in the world then money

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: a lot more

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but some don’t realize that it seems

[13:37] herman Bergson: Next lecture we'll learn what the Indians can teach us still.....

[13:37] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: aaa that can be something

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[[13:37] .: Beertje :.: that will be a lot i presume:)

[13:37] Gemma Allen: :-0

[13:37] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:37] Kip Roffo: Thank you for a interesting session. Herman!

[13:37] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:37] Zanicia: Thank you Herman

[13:37] herman Bergson: My pleasure Kip......

[13:37] Chantal: Likes to thank all natives around the globe, and in this case especially the indians for appreciating and taking care of our planet! (positive enough? ) ㋡

[13:38] Paolo Rousselot: good to see everyone and thanks Herman!

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again all

[13:38] Daruma Hermine Boa: yes thank u

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:38] herman Bergson: Thank you Chantal....

[13:38] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:38] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for all the insight.

[13:38] Kip Roffo: Very sweet parting thought, Chan!

[13:38] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: bye all

[13:38] Gemma Allen: hope to make it Thursday

[13:38] Chantal: Waves ㋡

[13:38] .: Beertje :.: bye all..have a goodnight

530: American Indian philosophy

There's a big debate going on about hunting for sport. On one side are the advocates of animal rights, who think that shooting and killing a deer or a duck is almost as bad as murdering a human being. 

The fact that it is done for sport only makes matters worse, because hunters evidently get a sadistic pleasure from spilling the blood of other living, sensitive creatures.

On the other side are sportsmen and -women. They believe, to the contrary, that people are totally superior to animals and have a God-given right to do whatever they like to "lower" forms of life, provided no injury is done another human being. 

An important element in the justification of modern sport hunting is the minimization of animal consciousness. 

Animals have no thoughts or feelings beyond their immediate sensations and get around largely by "instinct," or so many of the hunters allege.

Thus to hunt and kill these moving targets is a far cry from doing similar things to another genuine "subject," another fully conscious, thinking, feeling person.

One thing we can say here already is that neuroscience and men like Frans de Waal, the well known Dutch primatologist and ethologist, have proven, that animals can have feelings and emotions too and in that sense the hunters are wrong.

Among traditional American Indian peoples, who primarily lived from hunting and gathering food, you could expect that hunting for them was good sport.

Once upon a time, even anthropologists believed that the aboriginal peoples of the Western Hemisphere lived in a rude and primitive state, only a notch above the beast they preyed upon. 

If so, one could hardly imagine that these "savages" entertained any other notion about animals than which ones were good for eating and what was the easiest way to catch them.

But when anthropologists began to study the cognitive as well as material cultures of American Indian peoples, there emerged a whole new way of thinking about these “savages”.

Frank Gouldsmith Speck (1881-1950) was an American anthropologist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania, 

specializing in the Algonquian and Iroquoian peoples among the Eastern Woodland Native Americans of the United States and First Nations peoples of eastern boreal Canada.

Speck was unique among many anthropologists of his generation in choosing to study American Indians rather than people of more distant lands.

Because of the changes that had taken place in the 19th century and drastic declines in population, Speck found his work was in part a "salvage operation" to try to capture ethnological material at a time of great stress for the peoples. He wrote:

Among Indians in the hunting level, various families and clans held themselves in special relationships to groups of animals.

 The animal world, in their view, enjoyed the right to exist in close association with human beings .... Numerous regulations govern the taking and killing of plant and animal life. 

With these people no act of this sort is profane, hunting is not war upon the animals, not a slaughter for food or profit, but a holy occupation. -end quote

For indians hunting an animal for sport would violate its dignity, sanctity, and right to be respected by human beings.

We all have a philosophy of life. So had the native Indians too. Next time we’ll look into there view on themselves and nature.

The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^

[13:27] Paolo Rousselot: :-)

[13:27] Chantal: Thank you Herman ㋡

[13:27] Merlin: Hmm... Interesting

[13:28] Dawn Rhiannyr: great Herman, thank you

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:28] Chantal: specially after your day... Thank you!

[13:28] Merlin: I am interested in the biological aspect of philosophy

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: aaaa very nice

[13:28] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks, indeed.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: nice

[13:28] herman Bergson: The subject is quite fascinating....

[13:28] Merlin: Herman... have we finished with Asia now?

[13:29] herman Bergson: especially when you think about how to retrieve the indian thinking.....

[13:29] Bergson smiles

[13:29] Paolo Rousselot: book suggestion - Black Elk Speaks

[13:29] Chantal: ㋡

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes indeed Paolo...one of the outstanding reports on the subject

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: most living beings have som form of intelligence and feelings id say, not just preprogrammed behavior like some machine

[13:30] Merlin: Yes Bejiita

[13:30] herman Bergson: We are done with Asia , Merlin..yes :-)

[13:30] Merlin: aah ok ty Herman

[13:31] herman Bergson: the most interesting issue here is of course how we look at animals....at nature....

[13:31] herman Bergson: can we shoot the deer for fun ...or cant we

[13:31] Chantal: To me native americans etc seem to have been more in Tune with nature... ability we lost really

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: very true Chantal

[13:31] Dawn Rhiannyr: yes Chan, see it similar

[13:32] Merlin: Yes Chantal... and the Aussie Aborigines too

[13:32] Chantal: yes

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: yes Merlin

[13:32] Merlin: they are all good environmentalists

[13:32] Dawn Rhiannyr: yes Merlin

[13:32] herman Bergson: Maybe interesting to think about the phenomenon....Hunting as a sport

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: the native peoples and their ability to stay in tune with the heartbeat of nature

[13:32] herman Bergson: When did it show up in history?

[13:32] Chantal: gaaaah Herman... saw some pictures on fb :(

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: indeed, for some reason we think we are the only lifeform that ca think and feel it seems in some cases

[13:33] herman Bergson: We are not Bejiita...that is clear :-)

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: and even then not very well!

[13:33] herman Bergson: true too, Paolo :-))

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and we even classify ourselves higher and lower, for ex white vs black paople that white people should be much more valued then black

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and similar

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i don’t get it

[13:34] Paolo Rousselot: mistaken images of "superiority"

[13:34] herman Bergson: I am still thinking about hunting as a sport....

[13:34] Chantal: seems our brain is looking for a negative before it seems possible to reach a positive ㋡ Bejiita

[13:35] Valcyrie: there are categories of farmers... corporate farmers, hobby farmers, family farmers, and a myriad more... but some farmers have a similar knowledge of the earth and ecosystems that the Native Americans have... some don't

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: it seems so

[13:35] Paolo Rousselot: interesting point Chan

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: for some reason

[13:35] herman Bergson: Was it a UK invention....the fox hunt for instance?

[13:35] Paolo Rousselot: yes Val

[13:35] Paolo Rousselot: and "hunting" isn't always limited to man vs. "animal"

[13:35] Merlin: Bullfights

[13:36] Merlin: some of it is just bullying, not even sport

[13:36] Chantal: Ancient civilizations Herman

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Chantal....but in those days they used the game as food eventually I suppose...

[13:37] herman Bergson: even tho it was a hunting party....

[13:37] herman Bergson: but maybe not

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:37] Chantal: Killing a lion in the Colosseum meant the lion ended up on a dinner table?

[13:37] Dawn Rhiannyr: when did it start the hunting just for fun and where

[13:37] Valcyrie: or was killing fox... like the modern killing of wolves and coyotes

[13:38] herman Bergson: Ahhh good point Chantal...but was that hunting....at least killing animals for fun indeed

[13:38] .: Beertje :.: no one eats a Lion because it's a meat eater and they taste bad:)

[13:38] Paolo Rousselot: 19th century England comes to mind but it was probably earlier

[13:38] Chantal: no hunting no

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes and I am thinking of colonialism...

[13:38] herman Bergson: big game hunting in Africa...killing lephants

[13:38] Chantal: :(

[13:39] Paolo Rousselot: yes (which now may be heading to extinction - at least forest elephants)

[13:39] herman Bergson: ok....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: a thought....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and the illegal hunt to get rhino horns

[13:39] herman Bergson: when became killing animals a sport and fun?

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: they are almost extinct now because of that

[13:39] Areyn Laurasia: when it was no longer necessary to hunt for survival?

[13:40] herman Bergson: so contrary to the attitudes of American indians...

[13:40] Chantal: Good point Areyn!

[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: good question Areyn

[13:40] Chantal: ㋡

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks, Chantal and Paolo.. it's just a guess.

[13:40] Dawn Rhiannyr: yes Areyn, think you are right

[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: perhaps when for was plentiful enough it could be wasted

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: today its all about money as usual, the hunter get good pay to sell rhino horns and similar

[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: *food

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and thus they continue

[13:40] herman Bergson: there is another point here.....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: even its illegal

[13:41] herman Bergson: Just think about this....

[13:41] herman Bergson: What do you think about killing a fly?

[13:41] herman Bergson: What do you think about killing a butterfly?

[13:41] Paolo Rousselot: "out damned spot!!!"

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: who in this room is a vegetarian?

[13:41] Chiania (Chiania) is now known as Chiana.

[13:41] Chantal: Feels bad for killing the spider... but does... beyond that no

[13:42] herman Bergson: KIlling the spider....yes

[13:42] Merlin: Oh Beertje... Halal has been in our news a lot today

[13:42] Dawn Rhiannyr: bringing even spiders in a glass in the garden but kills mosquitos

[13:42] Paolo Rousselot: the Lakota respected even the role the spider played

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: It's difficult to be a vegetarian in a family of meat eaters.. :S

[13:42] Chantal: I try too Dawn :)))

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: many think spiders are scary and thus kill them

[13:42] Chantal: smiles at Areyn ㋡

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: as long thay dont jump on me and bite me im fine with them

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: so we kill animals too...

[13:43] Chantal: You hereo you, Bejiita ㋡

[13:43] Chantal: hero

[13:43] Dawn Rhiannyr: but more a kind of defense :)

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: have you ever looked at those beautifull eyes of a cow?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well...it is interesting in what way you are selective in which one to smash and which one to take out into the garden in a glass

[13:43] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot keeps moving closer to being a vegetarain - not yet tho

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: oe at work however see a spider and go 2AAAARRGGHHH EEEEEEK STOMP STOPM SPLAT"

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ONE

[13:44] Dawn Rhiannyr: yes Beertje

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: damn keyboard

[13:44] Merlin: "A robin redbreast in a cage, Puts all heaven in a rage"

[13:44] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot chuckles with Bejiita

[13:44] herman Bergson: or the little lambs in the meadow...:-)

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ehehe

[13:44] Merlin: yum yum

[13:44] herman Bergson grins

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] .: Beertje :.: or those beautiful roof rabbits

[13:45] herman Bergson: OK...I think we can stop here.....:-)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:45] Dawn Rhiannyr: yes Herman, I think I would be long time vegetarian if I had to kill the animals

[13:45] Chantal: ㋡ me too Dawn

[13:45] herman Bergson: I guess we are all thinking now about our personal attitude toward nature....and animals of all sorts :-)

[13:45] Merlin: Oh I would just eat small animals

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: i only eat meat form a can...does that mean i'm a vegetaran?

[13:45] Merlin: Chickens

[13:46] Merlin: Fish

[13:46] Merlin: lol

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: no... :)

[13:46] Chantal: yes fish...so good, sorry fish

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: can confess i love bbq

[13:46] Chantal: ㋡

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but also love chocolate beer and whatever is tasty

[13:46] Merlin: "Never eat anything bigger than your head"

[13:46] Chantal: ㋡ Merlin

[13:47] Areyn Laurasia: agrees with Dawn

[13:47] Paolo Rousselot: thanks folks - good to see you all!

[13:47] Merlin: I am just throwing quotations around... I don’t necessarily agree

[13:47] Chantal: Waves ㋡

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman- thanx all ㋡

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:47] Areyn Laurasia: bye Paolo

[13:47] Chantal: Thanks everyone ㋡ Loved it Herman :)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well..I guess we all have got the picture now

[13:47] Dawn Rhiannyr whispers: great time here again :)Thank you Herman!

[13:48] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again..:-)

[13:48] Dawn Rhiannyr: no need to whisper, stares at my fingers

[13:48] Chantal: ㋡

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: have a great day or night everyone ㋡

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: smiles

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:48] Areyn Laurasia: good night :)

[13:48] Letty Luckstone: Thank you, herman. Excellent discussion.

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Dawn Rhiannyr: good night all :)

[13:48] Merlin: Thanks Herman... Bye all

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: after these lessons we all will be vegetarians:))))))

529: The Kyoto School

Let me skip a lecture on Buddhism and Confucianism, which came to Japan in the 6th century.

We discussed Confucianism in lecture 485 and onward and Buddhism from lecture 498 and next ones. More interesting is the next subject.

In Japan something has happened, which is unique and unheard of in Chinese, Indian or Islamic philosophy. That is, the way how Japan dealt with Western philosophy.

Japan was closed as an oyster for foreign ships. And these foreign countries didn’t like that. Study for yourself why this was and what the historical situation was between 1800 and 1900..

In 1853 several warships of the U.S. Navy commanded by Commodore Matthew Perry sailed into Edo Bay, carrying a request , in fact  a demand, that Japan open her ports to foreign trading ships.

In 1854 he returned with twice as many ships to ask what the answer was, while giving a sideshow with his flat-trajectory cannons, that could fire explosive shells. He just took out a few buildings. It convinced the  Japanese.

Then in 1856 US Consul Townsend Harris scared the Japanese by abundantly pointing out the aggressive colonialism of France and Great Britain against China in the current Second Opium War (1856–1860), 

suggesting that these countries would not hesitate to go to war against Japan as well, and that the United States offered a peaceful alternative. 

A new Treaty and Japan was open and Western technology and culture were imported with amazing rapidity and thoroughness.

Toward the end of the nineteenth century, not only were French positivism and British utilitarianism being received with special enthusiasm, 

but also in the interests of a thorough historical understanding of Western thought, ancient Greek and Roman thought. 

But it was German philosophy that found the most fertile ground for transplantation, from Leibniz and Kant, through German Idealism, to the more recent philosophies of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. 

It is true that Shinto still functions on the everyday level as a vessel for whatever thoughts and feelings the average Japanese may have concerning "the meaning of life," the nature of death and the beyond, and so on.                                          

But the "Kyoto School" philosopher Nishitani Keiji argues in a book on nihilism written in  1949 that the severance from the tradition on the intellectual and existential levels 

has introduced into modern Japanese life a deep seated nihilism that is all the more powerful for remaining mostly unconscious.

The “Kyoto School” was a group of 20th century Japanese thinkers who developed original philosophies based on intellectual and spiritual traditions of East Asia, those of Buddhism in particular, and the methods and content of Western philosophy.

A member of that school, Tanabe, studied with Heidegger in the early 1920s. This is a characteristic quote from him:  

“All science needs to take some entity or other as its object of study. The point of contact is always in being, not in nothing. The discipline that has to do with Nothingness is philosophy”.

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. 

A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. 

Mid-20th century  the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. 

By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference. Watch Kurosawa’s movies for these themes.

There is  really no equivalent in the West to the shock caused by modernization in Japan. A country with a two-thousand-year-old tradition cuts itself off from the rest of the world for a period of a dozen generations, 

and then is suddenly forced into the wholesale adoption of a totally alien set of values--a process that necessitates in large part a radical break with indigenous traditions.

I am not Japanese, so I can not tell you how these ideas of nothingness and nihilism play a role in Japanese culture today, when it concerns the meaning of life.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^

[13:21] BoaDaruma Hermine Boa claps

[13:21] Chantal: Thank you Herman ㋡

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: great lecture!

[13:21] Zanicia: Claps

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: hmm talk about transition for sure

[13:22] herman Bergson: thank you...

[13:22] Daruma Hermine Boa: i hope Japanese have more belief today in life^^

[13:22] Chantal: Somehow... this Japanese interest in German philosophy reminded me of WW2...

[13:22] herman Bergson: Well...it seems that Shinto rituals are still an important part of Japanese life...

[13:23] herman Bergson: It was in the news today even....

[13:23] ღ ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ ღ: but how did adapting to western culture actually change the Japanese culture.

[13:23] herman Bergson: There is no relation Chantal...

[13:23] Chantal: oke

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: indeed, it have not disappeared and thats an important thing, big part of Japanese culture

[13:23] Zanicia: I had ver heard of any of that and for the first time ever, have an empathy for the Japs

[13:23] ღ ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ ღ: i mean we know they are big consumers now just like the rest of us

[13:23] Zanicia: *never

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: the interesting thing is they are once and for all able to let these 2 old and modern coexist and it works well

[13:24] ღ ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ ღ: but beyond that.. how was the culture affected?

[13:24] herman Bergson: These ideas of nothingness are also known in buddhism...

[13:24] ღ ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ ღ: seems like we know they still follow shintoist set of beliefs

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: once again we see this in manga and anime where high tech is mixed with ninjas ans samurai and other similar things from the past

[13:24] ღ ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ ღ: but what changed?

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: and it works great

[13:24] herman Bergson: As I said....there is a beautiful movie of Kurosawa...

[13:25] herman Bergson: Ikiru from 1952.....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] herman Bergson: Ikiru is the verb "to live"

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] herman Bergson: try to find that movie....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:25] herman Bergson: Rashomon 1950 is another one from him

[13:25] Zanicia: I certainly will

[13:26] Chantal: (sorry to say but needs to leave, wishes everyone a good end of the class) ㋡

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: hehe found an entire collection over 32 gb

[13:26] herman Bergson: Japanese artists were strongly interested in existentialist themes

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: with kurosawa

[13:26] Zanicia: Bye Chantal

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: seen some vilm of him before but not many

[13:26] Daruma Hermine Boa: expensive films from kurosawa i see^^

[13:26] ღ ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ ღ: bye chantal

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: bye chantal

[13:27] herman Bergson: But as I said in the beginning...

[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa: nini chantal

[13:27] herman Bergson: would have been interesting if  a Japanese person would have been present today in the audience

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa: as always, when u need one^^

[13:27] Bejiita Imako whispers: ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: one thing that remained too it the respect for the superior....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Japanese language is very difficult in that respect for us to learn.....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:28] herman Bergson: You may speak fluent Japanese....grammatically correct....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: the writing is the hardest

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and 3 alphabets on that

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: Hiragana Katakana and Kanji

[13:29] Zanicia: oh my!!!!!

[13:29] herman Bergson: but you have to 'feel" the right relation with the person you are talking to to use the right verb endings etc...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:30] herman Bergson: The writing isn’t that hard....

[13:30] herman Bergson: not harder than Chinese....

[13:30] herman Bergson: the katakana is mainly used to transcribe foreign words ...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: the similarity of some words are tricky

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a good example is kawai = cute and kowai = scary

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: as made for misunderstandings

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:31] herman Bergson: I studied Japanese for about tne years.....could read and write it....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i know some expressions

[13:31] herman Bergson: but unfortunately that was about 20 years ago :-)

[13:31] ღ ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ ღ: english is supposed to be much more difficult as a second language

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: also i think it sounds cool

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:31] Zanicia: Surely it has a lot to do with HOW the words are said. They are very aware of their manners

[13:32] herman Bergson: yes ZANICIA....and for those manners the words have special declinations....and endings

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: in every language it is the most difficult to talk about abstract themes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes true

[13:32] herman Bergson: to a woman you say it differently than to a man...so you can imagine what mistakes we can make :-)

[13:32] Zanicia: so you could actually offend just by inflection?

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes you can ZANICIA, definitely

[13:33] Zanicia: ooooh dear

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: to end a name for ex, ending with san mean its an important or high respecter person while chan is used for something cute or to chioldren

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: children

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: i hope the Japanese are tolerant with strangers

[13:34] herman Bergson: is you say to your superior "so desyoo ne" in stead of "so desu ka"....this might be an example

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] herman Bergson: I may be wrong ....

[13:34] herman Bergson: too long ago...

[13:35] herman Bergson: But there was a column in the English Tokyo Newspaper.....all about such issues...

[13:35] herman Bergson: I have aseries of little books...Nihon Go Notes....collections of the columns..

[13:35] herman Bergson: really ...sometimes hilarious...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:36] herman Bergson: So contrary to the surrounding countries the philosophical landscape in Japan is very different

[13:37] herman Bergson: Philosophy departments teach Continental and Analytical philosophy

[13:37] herman Bergson: I read that f you want to study Buddhist philosophy you are redirected to the department of religious Studies

[13:38] Zanicia: But going back to the beginning....how awful to go into some other countries waters DEMANDING trade or ELSE!!!!! It's a wonder they have merged such a lot since

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes....this history is amazing, ZANICIA....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that they accepted it but it seems they thought when they saw what the other countries had "This was not so bad after all"

[13:38] herman Bergson: Just the Western arrogance towards such an old culture

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: cause they ve really taken all the things from outside to them and accepted it

[13:39] Zanicia: but they seemed to have lost their identity through it

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: it changed it for sure

[13:39] herman Bergson: That I don't know, but indeed they have lost a lot!

[13:39] herman Bergson: but that i not completely the case...

[13:40] herman Bergson: The Kyoto School combined a lot of their own indigenous philosophy with Western philosophy....

[13:40] herman Bergson: But it ended up in some form of nihilism.....yes

[13:41] Zanicia: but as you said, Herman, it was a tremendous cultural shock

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes...must be....

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: as it was for many colonies before

[13:41] herman Bergson: but around 1850 the country was one big political mess

[13:41] herman Bergson: so very vulnerable

[13:42] herman Bergson: unable to organize a joined defense against France England or the US

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: can imagine

[13:43] herman Bergson: So.if you ever encounter a Japanese intellectual with a philosophical twist :-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: brinfg him in ^_^

[13:43] Zanicia: hehe

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ok ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: I am really curious to know how they see it themselves

[13:44] Zanicia: good point

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yukio Mishima who I mentioned in the first lecture on Japan was such a person......

[13:45] herman Bergson: one who attempted to formulate Japanese identity....

[13:45] herman Bergson: but not everyone was happy with that kind of identity....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Committing seppuku or harakiri isnt popular anymore in Japan

[13:46] herman Bergson: even tho it was Bushido....the way of the samurai

[13:47] herman Bergson: So...

[13:47] herman Bergson: before I commit harakiri...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:48] herman Bergson: I'd like to thank you all again:-)

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: please don't!

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Daruma Hermine Boa: ;-) thank u herman

[13:48] Zanicia: Thank you Herman

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: awesome again Herman

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you!

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: thank you bejiita

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again all

[13:48] Daruma Hermine Boa: have a nice evening all

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hugs

[13:49] Zanicia: Bye everyone

[13:49] herman Bergson: Bye ZANICIA

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: good night everyone

[13:49] herman Bergson: Night Lizzy :-)

528: Shinto..

In the previous lecture I stated that one of the characteristics of Shinto was ancestor worship. Someone in the audience claimed that this is not the case.

Of course I have to rely on sources and I always wish to be accurate. So I did some extra research on the subject. 

Thus I learnt, that in ‘Kami, Death and Ancestral Kami’, published in the Proceedings of the Second International Congress on Shinto Studies (1955), 

professor Delmer Brown of the Institute of East Asian Studies of the University of California, examined how exactly the worship of ancestral kami might have been conjoined to the animism of old,

which means that my source, in this case professor Graham Parkes stated correctly that that Shinto also means ancestor worship today. 

It might well be the case that some specific branch of Shinto today does not believe in “kami” (the spirits) of ancestors present in the great Shrines.

I can add, that ,indeed, in the very beginning, before Chinese influences entered Japan in Shinto the “spirit”  of the mountain had no independent corporeal existence. It was just the mountain itself.

Another important idea in Shinto is that the Japanese nation is one large, extended family, with the emperor-as high priest and "father"-at the head. 

This notion began to be literalized in the so-called nativist philosophies of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, 

which held that the Japanese imperial family was directly descended from the gods of the primeval period.

In the 1930s this even stimulated the idea of superiority over all other races among ultra-nationalist groups.Also Yukio Mishima cherished such ideas.

And there it begins to become philosophical for me: the way we answer the question “Who Am I?”

For some reason homo sapiens is inclined or willing to believe, that some individuals will answer this question different from us.

I mean, for instance, the Arab califs after 632 CE all tried to “prove” that they were direct descendants of Muhammad, which justified their right to rule over others.

And here in Japanese thinking we see the same phenomenon. According to Brown, it was during the sixth century that some of the leading clans began to foster belief that their putative founders should be worshipped as kami.   

It was a time of instability when clans sought legitimacy, and the idea was stimulated by the introduction from China of more advanced forms of ancestor worship. 

Again we see that assuming that some humans are more special than others, is used to legitimize an alleged right to rule over others.

In the Netherlands we too have such a peculiar situation, where someone is head of the State by birth and is said to have royal blood.

Fortunately in our case this head of State has little political meaning, but yet a great influence on how people think about how a country should be organized.

Like in Japan where there is still an emperor like we have a king, our political organization is based on free vote and parliamentary democracy.

And yet, when people are interviewed, for instance, many say how good it is to have a king, completely forgetting the weird way, how he got his job and how his “power” is justified.

Sometimes that scares me…..Thank you … ^_^

The Discussion

[13:17] herman Bergson: .

[13:17] Chantal: ㋡

[13:17] herman Bergson: If you like.....the floor is yours :-)

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] herman Bergson: Well Gemma has an elected president , so she wont bother about this issue I guess ^_^

[13:18] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: its an interesting subject indeed

[13:19] Paolo Rousselot: look at the extremes though

[13:19] Areyn Laurasia: sorry for being late, I'm still catching up reading the text :)

[13:19] herman Bergson: What do you mean Paolo?

[13:19] Chantal: ㋡ Areyn

[13:19] Paolo Rousselot: one could say the Dalai Lama "inherited" his "position"

[13:20] Gemma Allen: well

[13:20] herman Bergson: yes....applies to him too.....

[13:20] Gemma Allen: oone way of putting it

[13:20] herman Bergson: very weird way to get that job.....

[13:20] Paolo Rousselot: with the same arrogance as past kings & emperors today's Putin rules with impunity

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: strange it is

[13:20] Paolo Rousselot: the same could be said for the Koch Brothers in the U.S.

[13:20] herman Bergson: That is the privilege of the dictator, Paolo

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: its typical dictator statements indeed that they are sent from god ect

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: so people will not object him

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: and he can then do what he want

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes...it can be said of all persons who think they have a special right to something

[13:21] Chantal: thinks about North Korea...

[13:22] Paolo Rousselot: yes Chan

[13:22] Paolo Rousselot: and Assad in Syria

[13:22] herman Bergson: Most horrible example, I think....

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:22] Paolo Rousselot: but the same position, when exercised with grace and humility....

[13:22] herman Bergson: But the question is "why is this idea produced by the human mind"

[13:23] Paolo Rousselot: can produce a truly exceptional leader, one worth respecting

[13:23] herman Bergson: and besides that...even believed by large crowds

[13:23] Paolo Rousselot: seems a 2 fold question

[13:23] herman Bergson: yes.....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm, seems to do more harm and suffering then good though

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: esp in north korea’s case

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: also look what hitler did

[13:24] Chantal: Itsme ㋡

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: brainwashing and then mass murder

[13:24] herman Bergson: Hello Itsme :-)

[13:24] itsme Frederix: Hi all

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: kimm jong does the same

[13:24] Areyn Laurasia: hi itsme

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hi Itsme

[13:24] Paolo Rousselot: was thinking about this a bit before logging in

[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hey:-) Itsme

[13:24] itsme Frederix: bergfrau Hi Hi

[13:24] Gemma Allen: hihi

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: going to as close to the source as possible

[13:25] itsme Frederix: Gemma and all other oldies

[13:25] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: Hi Itsme

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: we view the world through 2 lenses

[13:25] herman Bergson: anyway...it is a nice problem to think about....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: indeed

[13:26] herman Bergson: the metaphysical justification of power

[13:26] Areyn Laurasia: I'm confused by tonight's topic

[13:26] herman Bergson: What is confusing you Areyn?

[13:27] Areyn Laurasia: How are the three tied together? Shinto, ancestor worship and royalty?

[13:27] herman Bergson: By the idea that some human beings are more special than other human beings....

[13:28] Paolo Rousselot: perceptions of superiority?

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: i gues so

[13:28] Areyn Laurasia: viewed from a different lens

[13:28] herman Bergson: which in the case of Shinto is justified by saying that these human beings are of divine descendance....

[13:28] herman Bergson: in other cases  because they are born from royal blood...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: these 2 use to be the main ideas

[13:29] herman Bergson: and again in other cases because they claim to have received a message from Allah or who ever...

[13:29] Chantal: ㋡

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: In all cases they are more than jsut biological organisms like we are....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: half man half god

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: sort of

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: at least they think so

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: states that

[13:30] herman Bergson: They have some special link....or quality who nobody can see

[13:30] Areyn Laurasia: I don't know much about Shinto, I thought it's about the essence of the elements. As for ancestor worship, is that not paying respect to the memory of past loved ones? Visiting a cemetery and lighting a candle or bringing some flowers... how is that related to royalty and superiority?

[13:31] Chantal: I doubt all of them think so Bejiita... as Herman said we have a king, but I doubt he believes he is half god... sentenced is more like it

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: there i guess its more of a descendant system

[13:31] herman Bergson: It is because the epmeror is said to be of divine descendancy.....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: like here in sweden we also have a royal family

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: works somewhat same way

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but he also have no power

[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: no royal family in Finland :)

[13:32] Chantal: ㋡

[13:32] herman Bergson: But Shinto is indeed also a belief which cherish the respect of past generations

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: there you go Herman

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: arrogance vs. humility

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: is the position seized or inherited?

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: japans system seems to be more 'nice' at least in general then some other cultures and religions

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: even if there was rough times

[13:34] Paolo Rousselot: except when you take into account what they did prior to WWII

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and also these rough stuff is not to be seen today as with islam where its still going on, wars wars more wars all in the name of god

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes I would not say that  Bejiita...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: Japan is nothing like that

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: but i have not all details either, very complex stuff

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: but 2 complete different cultures indeed

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes indeed....especially when you look at its religions

[13:36] Paolo Rousselot: both Japan & Germany had a heavy dose of humility & humanity shoved down their throats after WWII

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:36] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehehee

[13:36] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:36] Paolo Rousselot: Middle East countries haven't experience that nor has the U.S.

[13:36] herman Bergson: In japan after the sith century when Buddhisn e came to Japan they just built buddhist temples next to the Shinto shrines

[13:36] Gemma Allen: now japan is looking for closer relations with us here

[13:37] Gemma Allen: for protection

[13:37] herman Bergson: We're moving now into politics :-)

[13:37] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] Paolo Rousselot: yup - sorry

[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: back to plato's version of an ideal state ruled by that of a philosopher and king?

[13:38] herman Bergson: I guess you'd better study on the cultural phenomenon that on e the one hand soem humans mean that they are more human than others and on the other hand the masses that cheer a leader :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: That was the Islamic idea too Areyn.....the state ruled by the imams

[13:39] herman Bergson: They literally adopted that idea from Plato

[13:39] Paolo Rousselot: Areyn, I'd like to know more about that

[13:40] herman Bergson: the Politeia of Plato, Paolo....

[13:40] herman Bergson: where the philosophers should rule because only they had the real knowledge

[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: thanks, I'll look it up

[13:41] herman Bergson: Before you all get extra homework :-))

[13:41] Areyn Laurasia: so it's a natural tendency to stray from philosophical ideas to politics? :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your participation again

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] Paolo Rousselot: culture always mixes it up, don't you think?

[13:41] herman Bergson: They are really close of course Areyn....

[13:41] Chantal: Thank you Herman ㋡

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: well some things ar closely mixed together in some way

[13:42] Paolo Rousselot: yes, thanks Herman

[13:42] herman Bergson: As soon as you talk about ethics and putting them in to practise you talk about how to organize your society....so about politics

[13:42] Dawn Rhiannyr: yes thank you Herman, interesting again

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman & Class :-)

[13:43] Paolo Rousselot: it all stems from human psychology so invariably its going to be messy!

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for having us.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Unless anyone still has a question.....???

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:43] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:43] herman Bergson: Thank you all......class dismissed :-)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon again

[13:43] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:43] Chantal: Shall log off to read her book, enjoy everyone ㋡

[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:43] Paolo Rousselot: be safe!

[13:43] Areyn Laurasia: have a good night

[13:44] Chantal: waves

[13:44] Dawn Rhiannyr: bye everyone :)

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye class:o)

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: bye