513: Indian Materialism

There always comes a moment that some people grow tired of all the stories, mythology, gods and supernatural beliefs. They want to see hard facts.

It happened in Western philosophy, when in the 5th century BCE philosophers like Leucippus (440 BCE) and his pupil, Democritus formulated their ideas on atomism.

The theory of Democritus and Leucippus held that everything is composed of "atoms", which are physically, but not geometrically, indivisible; 

that between atoms, there lies empty space; that atoms are indestructible; have always been, and always will be, in motion; that there are an infinite number of atoms, and kinds of atoms, which differ in shape, and size.

It is always an exciting observation in philosophy…yes…philosophy can be exciting…. that similar ideas have developed elsewhere too. Not a few years ago but thousands of years ago, even earlier than in Ancient Greece.

In India the Jain,  Ajivika and Carvaka schools of atomism may date back to the 6th century BCE.  I’ll focus here on the Carvaka school. It emerged as an alternative to the orthodox Hindu pro-Vedic schools.

I’ll elaborate on this Carvaka school of philosophy, because it is a true materialist or naturalist philosophy. As a philosophical theory, naturalism aligns philosophy with science and the natural world—rejecting the supernatural.

Naturalists view human beings with their different endowments as mere ‘objects’—parts of nature—to be described, analyzed and causally explained. 

The claim is that it is possible to have an absolute and pure objective view of human beings and their behavior. As you can imagine, not a really popular approach among believers in supernatural things, like gods.

In a Indian text from the 5th century BCE we read: “O, the highly wise! Arrive at a conclusion, therefore, that there is nothing beyond this Universe. Give precedence to that which meets the eye and turn your back on what is beyond our knowledge.”

It is interesting to see, that there have always been philosophers, who opposed to metaphysical theories and claims of the existence of supernatural beings.

Also interesting is to observe that such schools in philosophy have been often attacked vigorously by religious parties. As for Carvaka philosophy, there is no continuity after the 12th century, probably eclipsed by Hinduism.

Our understanding of Cārvāka philosophy is fragmentary, based largely on criticism of its ideas by other schools. The following quote is therefore typical of the situation:

"Though materialism in some form or other has always been present in India, and occasional references are found in the Vedas, the Buddhistic literature, the Epics, as well as in the later philosophical works

 we do not find any systematic work on materialism, nor any organized school of followers as the other philosophical schools possess. 

But almost every work of the other schools states, for refutation, the materialistic views. Our knowledge of Indian materialism is chiefly based on these."

A main issue of Carvaka was, that all metaphysical ideas were only deductions from inferences, not from sensory experience.

Therefore, Cārvāka philosophy denied metaphysical concepts like reincarnation, extracorporeal soul, efficacy of religious rites, 

other worlds, like heaven and hell, fate and accumulation of merit or demerit through the performance of certain actions.

Cārvāka   philosophy also rejected the use of supernatural causes to describe natural phenomena. To them all natural phenomena was produced spontaneously from the inherent nature of things.

These are thoughts from thousands of years ago. They were not popular then. Compare this with the fact that we now live in a world dominated by science….

The Discussion

[13:35] herman Bergson: Thank you..^_^

[13:36] Nectanebus: nice stuff :)

[13:36] CONNIE Eichel: :)

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:37] herman Bergson winks at CONNIE

[13:37] CONNIE Eichel winks back

[13:37] herman Bergson: What fascinates me is this materialism....

[13:37] herman Bergson: especially when you compare it to our present situation

[13:37] Nectanebus: Nice that you touch on Carvaka and Ajivika. Those two don't often see the light of day. Obviously I'm one for Ajivika more so heh

[13:38] CONNIE Eichel: :)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Ajvika isnt a 100% materialist philosophy....

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it makes one wonder why both sides must deny the other instead of concentrating on their views and developing that

[13:38] oola Neruda: good point, Ciska

[13:39] herman Bergson: I think there is a legitimate reason for that Ciska :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: The point is....

[13:39] Nectanebus: People tend to "other" at the drop of a hate ;)

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: it often seems sooo useless... to put so much energy in something you can't really know

[13:39] herman Bergson: when you hold certain views, you derive certain claims from it....

[13:39] herman Bergson: for instance....

[13:40] herman Bergson: all kinds of religions have certain claims regarding how the world should look like based on their private knowledge based on private revelations

[13:41] herman Bergson: IIt is justified to question such claims and question the sources of knowledge on which they are based

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: well for materialism thats the same isn't it?

[13:41] Nectanebus: I'd say it's valid to question everything constantly.

[13:42] vladimir Hoxley: Has materialism/naturalism always been a minority view?

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yepp

[13:42] oola Neruda: i suppose when they insist that everyone adheres to their "rules"

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes...it is....

[13:42] herman Bergson: and a materialist points at results from science....scientific knowledge...

[13:42] herman Bergson: which can be tested with public methods

[13:43] Nectanebus: I think determinism vs free will is about as back and forth as materialism vs liminalism (sic)

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: in materialism we do have constant change and new views as well which alter and add to our views from materialism up to now.

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes - but their knowledge is a temporary as well herman

[13:43] herman Bergson: I agree Ciska...

[13:43] herman Bergson: except that there is one constant....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:44] herman Bergson: the rejection of unprovable supernatural entities for instance

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: well

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: for a scientist its an unproven supernatural entity until it has a name and he can put it in his / her science language

[13:45] vladimir Hoxley: I think it is important to distinguish between materialism and naturalism

[13:45] Nectanebus: inb4scientist that turn christian

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: good point vladimir

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Nectanebus: Also, I'm not a fan of the church of Dawkins nor the "god of the gaps" theory. I think "science" and "religion" need to stop bickering.

[13:46] herman Bergson: I took them here as synonymous Vladimir....

[13:46] bombadail: materialists are okay with accepting the world as a puzzle ...the other side with supernatural things that are by definition beyond our reach...that is kind of a comforting shift in responsibility to a device like a god....in this way when you have a god you are no longer fully responsible and that is a relief to many

[13:46] Nectanebus: Neither have all the answers yet.

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: same here nectanebus

[13:47] vladimir Hoxley: The reason I think they aren't is that you could have a naturalist theory of mind that wasnt materialist

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: mh i do not think thats true Bombadail - when it is "natural law" thats when i do not have any responsibilities

[13:48] vladimir Hoxley: you can be a dualist and still a naturalist

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: a lot of gods have a lot of demand on humans to act responsible without definingt it exactly

[13:48] bombadail: natural laws are not set in stone ciska that's just an expression ...it's always just a theory that works in the moment

[13:48] herman Bergson: I know Vladimir, but that leads to a too complex discussion, I am afraid...

[13:48] Nectanebus: Also, science has a problem with any small amount of allegory in any religious text. Don't get me started on lotus feet...

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes - well religions too ;)

[13:49] bombadail: demands by god still transfer responsibility to the gods that know

[13:49] vladimir Hoxley: ok herman

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: science vs religion is a tricky subject

[13:50] herman Bergson: May point still is that people dirive authority to act, and see it as justified to do so based on these references to supernatural beings...

[13:50] bombadail: but of course it's not the gods that made the rules but other people that recognized most people prefer not to be responsible or could be taught to not believe in their own ability to discern things

[13:50] herman Bergson: Like muslims kill in the name of their Allah....and call themselves martyr when they die in the process

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:51] Nectanebus: But belief in science is about as stable as religious belief. I mean, genetics and metaphysics alone shift on a decade-ly basis, and medicine? Might as well snort tiger bones...

[13:51] herman Bergson: So we HAVE to question these claims...like Carvaka philosophy already did thousands of years ago

[13:51] vladimir Hoxley: That's not just a property of religion Herman

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: just creating more violence and justify it with religion

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: blowing p the entire planet

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: up

[13:52] bombadail: it's pretty clear that gods are an artifice used by people that want to make the rules...or think they know better and use gods as a device to control others

[13:52] herman Bergson: No Vladimir....a property of any ideology...I know...

[13:52] Nectanebus: ITT: "stop talking, I'm right"- everyone. Good thread!

[13:53] herman Bergson: What do you mean Nectanebus?

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: bombadail - you can use science the same way ... its really a matter of doing it

[13:53] Nectanebus: People seem to be rather forthright in their opines today heheh

[13:53] herman Bergson: Of course this is a debate as old as mankind :-))

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: but science is true facts

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: no supernatural stuff

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: here you really prove things

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: that they are real

[13:54] WAINSCOT reports: Beertje Beaumont is on your land now!

[13:54] bombadail: ciska you can't at all use science the same way...there are no secret special communications to god that are not available to all in science...

[13:54] oola Neruda: there are people who really do believe in gods and other unseen things

[13:55] vladimir Hoxley: What I find astonishing is people could hold materialist views so long ago, must have been very hard to do based on what they saw as the evidence around them to the contrary

[13:55] herman Bergson: It was by inference Vladimir.....

[13:55] herman Bergson: They managed to reason and conclude to atomism....

[13:56] herman Bergson: amazing....

[13:56] Nectanebus: Also, as far as "no lines to god" goes, it depends on your system. Modern tantric process is looking at interesting developments in science. I'll let you google-fu it :)

[13:56] .: Beertje :.: Goodevening ㋡

[13:56] Nectanebus: weyhey erryone's late

[13:56] herman Bergson: the Indian philosophers did...the Greek did..and we did in physics

[13:56] Corronach: :)

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:57] herman Bergson: For some reason we have the belief that reality canbe reduced to the smallest particles....

[13:57] vladimir Hoxley: but almost all of our early physicists were still theists I think. Amazing how radical they could be so long ago

[13:58] bombadail: is materialism reductionist?

[13:58] Nectanebus: Einstein was christian IIRC, lots of scientists are. Science still hasn't disproven half the stuff the papers pretend it has.

[13:58] Nectanebus: and yeah, reductio ad absurdum (occam's razor)

[13:58] bombadail: combine E=MC^2 with materialism and add in Quantum theory...

[13:59] herman Bergson: Neither has proven the other party anything else Nectanebus :-))

[13:59] bombadail: Energy and matter are two forms of the same thing

[13:59] Aarrabella: Einstein a christian? lol rly?

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:59] Aarrabella: he was a self declared agnostic

[13:59] vladimir Hoxley: He certainly wasnt - he stated his god was like spinozas

[14:00] Nectanebus: I can't remember off hand, it was one of the biggies

[14:00] herman Bergson: Ahh Spinoza....interesting subject indeed!

[14:00] Nectanebus: I'll look it up heh

[14:00] bombadail: so a true materialist understands that the atom idea was a crude best first guess....

[14:00] herman Bergson: Einstein could have chosen him indeed

[14:01] herman Bergson: maybe yes, Bombadail....yet funny how we guessed right :-))

[14:01] bombadail: guessed what right ...lost train of thought

[14:01] vladimir Hoxley: got to go, glad I came by again

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: bye vlad

[14:01] herman Bergson: guessed that the atom was the ultimate thing :-)

[14:02] Ciska Riverstone: bye vladimir

[14:02] Nectanebus: bye vlad

[14:02] herman Bergson: thnx for your participation Vladimir

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: atom mean undividuable but with nuclear reactors and particle accelerators that term is not true anymore

[14:02] bombadail: since energy and matter are equivalents....you no longer search for some fundemental particle....science already knows this

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cause they showed that you CAN split atoms

[14:03] Nectanebus: got to go, soup. see you all next time

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: and now we chase smaller and smaller stuff

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: in the LHC and similar

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: to get to the core of it all

[14:03] herman Bergson: Well...we'll leave that to the physicists :-))

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: how do the world REALLY work

[14:04] Aarrabella: that's the problem with philosophy, it is directly dependent on science, otherwise it is just gibberish

[14:04] herman Bergson: I do not agree Aarabella.....

[14:04] bombadail: but we already know there is no reduction of material to some fundamental stuff...the way I understand modern science

[14:04] herman Bergson: science is the result of philosophy....not visa versa

[14:05] Aarrabella: I do not believe so, curiosity starts both, science is the proper explanation whilst philosophy tries to get those conclusions and work a system around them

[14:06] herman Bergson: In the beginning philosophers were the astronomers trying to explain the universe.....

[14:06] herman Bergson: till we found definite answers to certain questions....

[14:06] herman Bergson: such questions then became the core of science

[14:07] herman Bergson: and such was the case in all fields of human knowledge

[14:07] Bejiita Imako: ah

[14:07] Aarrabella: they were scientists without knowing maybe:) but maybe it is philosophy that established the rigorosity of its method

[14:07] Bejiita Imako: seems logical

[14:07] Bejiita Imako: all start with philosophy and then we research about it

[14:07] Bejiita Imako: sort of

[14:08] herman Bergson: the esoteric alchemists were predecessors of chemistry as a science....

[14:08] Aarrabella: like the chicken and the egg :)

[14:08] herman Bergson: not at all

[14:08] Bejiita Imako: a classic one ㋡

[14:08] Dag: well I think that with the developments in the quantum physics , science and philosophy should get closer to each other

[14:08] Aarrabella: philosophy and science have always been close to each other, otherwise it would have been called religion ^^

[14:09] herman Bergson: yes Daggash, as has happened in neuroscience already

[14:09] herman Bergson: The mind body problem isn’t solved .....

[14:09] herman Bergson: But a lot of smaller issues are in neuroscience

[14:10] bombadail: science is just a label as is philosophy....don't get too attached...what you actually do and discover is what matters...but theses day it seems philosophy would be those that think about what has been discovered and those thoughts might spurn an experimental scientist to investigate something...it's a feedback loop

[14:10] Aarrabella: well from the little I know from my philosophy classes is that philosophy doesnt answer questions, it just teaches us how to ask questions correctly

[14:10] Aarrabella: philosophy* geez, my typing

[14:11] Aarrabella: so it doesn’t solve problems either, maths does :)

[14:11] herman Bergson: A lot of questions belonged to the realm of philosophy before they were answered and moved into the realm of science because of that

[14:11] Aarrabella: it just put the problem in an educated manner :)

[14:11] oola Neruda: they are close... Truth, Beauty... etc... smiles

[14:11] Aarrabella: well lets not dwell on the past when our knowledge was poor

[14:11] Aarrabella: we know better now :)

[14:12] herman Bergson: For Pythagoras math was philosophy...not how we use it now

[14:12] Bejiita Imako: ah

[14:13] herman Bergson: Well....a lot of issues to think about, I would say....

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: yes i guess so ㋡

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: its interesting for sure

[14:13] herman Bergson: So…thank you all for your brilliant participation today....:-)

[14:13] Dag: thanks again herman

[14:13] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[14:13] Aarrabella: yeah, sorry I arrived late, will try to come in time next time :)

[14:13] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[14:13] Corronach: thanks herman

[14:13] Dag: bye all

[14:14] Aarrabella: was a pleasure

[14:14] oola Neruda: baiee all

[14:14] Ciska Riverstone: have a great day /night everyone ㋡

[14:14] herman Bergson: Keep an eye on the clock...Europe and the US are not in sync anymore!!!

[14:14] CONNIE Eichel: lovely time :)

[14:14] CONNIE Eichel: yes, its a mess :)

[14:14] CONNIE Eichel: bye bye all, kisses :)

[14:14] .: Beertje :.: sorry for being late..I didn't know that

[14:14] herman Bergson: As usual each year CONNIE ^_^

[14:15] CONNIE Eichel: yes, hehe

[14:15] CONNIE Eichel: bye bye :)

[14:15] herman Bergson: But this is more or less the first time we yet got a group together

[14:15] Aarrabella: may I add you to my FL , Herman?

[14:15] herman Bergson: Sure Aarabella ^_^

[14:15] Aarrabella: ty :)

[14:16] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight everyone

[14:16] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[14:16] herman Bergson: Always handy to have a philosopher in your phonebook :-))

[14:16] Bejiita Imako: bye¨

[14:16] Bejiita Imako: i guess so

[14:16] Aarrabella: I am interested in a class on Daniel Dennett sometime :)

[14:17] Aarrabella: phil of mind would be a great topic

[14:17] herman Bergson: Interesting idea Aarabella

[14:17] herman Bergson: Has been a great topic here in 114 lectures already

[14:17] Aarrabella: ah great, shame I never attended, still new in SL :)

[14:18] Bejiita Imako: always great this

[14:18] herman Bergson: First lecture  of this class was September 2007

[14:18] Aarrabella: nice

[14:18] herman Bergson: Past 500 now :-))

[14:18] Aarrabella: well done, that's quite an accomplishment

[14:19] Bejiita Imako: many lessons it have been

[14:19] herman Bergson: took me more than 5 years indeed ^_^

[14:19] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:19] Aarrabella: :)

512: Indian epistemology and logic

When we look at the development of the mind from birth, we see that it goes through distinctive stages. The first thing you discover is that there is you and an external reality which is not you.

The second stage is that you have no clue what this outside reality is, how it works, what it does, except that you experience that is does all kinds of things.

You come to the conclusion that it all is pure magic. You move and a tree in the wind moves too. So it lives like you live….with a mind. When you are three years old, everything lives and feels, from teddybear to goblin.

There seems to be a parallel in the development of the mind of the homo sapiens. When he experienced consciousness and his relation with an external reality, he didn’t understand and concluded to what we now call animism. The world is a living thing like he himself was.

Then he invents gods and all knowledge about the gods and the world is revealed. A next step could be that these revelations are written down in a book  and so on.

But the next step is that he begins to wonder how he really can KNOW things and then epistemology is born. And it is amazing to see how philosophy thus has developed.

That is what happened in India. Some began to question these gods and revelations as the true way to obtain knowledge.

Thus epistemology became primary in the sense that it must be engaged in prior to attempting any other philosophical endevour.

There is, however, a difference.  In Western philosophy truth and falsity are usually ascribed to statements, propositions, or beliefs. In the Indian tradition truth and falsity are ascribed to a cognition or an awareness

The limits of one’s metaphysical claims are always inviolably set by the parameters established by one’s epistemology. Before one can make claims, one must establish the basis on which such claims can be proven and justified. 

The Indians went so far as to concede, that if one wishes to debate with an opponent, one must first find a common epistemological ground upon which to argue. 

Failing that, no meaningful debate can take place. Since one’s ontology, which is one’s theory about what exists, depends on what one’s epistemology makes allowable, 

many Indian schools tried to include things in their list of valid means of knowledge, that would facilitate their claims. 

Hindus, for instance, considered their Scriptures to be valid means of knowledge, but other Indians, such as Buddhists and Jains, rejected the authority of the Hindu Scriptures. 

Therefore, if a Hindu debated with a Buddhist or Jain, he or she could not appeal to the authority of Hindu Scriptures, but had to find common epistemological ground. 

In the case of Buddhism that would be perception and inference; in the case of Jainism, it would only be inference. 

All schools except Jains accepted perception as a valid means of knowledge, meaning that sensory knowledge is valid, if qualified as non-erroneous or non-hallucinatory. 

What is not presently observed but is in principle observable can be known by inference. Inference or deduction, therefor, were an important matter.

This implies that the Indian philosophers not only wondered about the question, how can I KNOW, but also, if in a debate we come to a conclusion, how do I know it is a necessary conclusion.

One text dating from the third century BCE and important to tracing the development of logic in classical India is a Buddhist work, which exhibits awareness of the fact that the form of argument is crucial to its being good.

In the Caraka-samhita, a medical text (300 - 500 BC),  is found in a passage, which defines an argument to have five parts: the proposition (pratijña ), the ground or reason (hetu ), the corroboration (drótanta ), the application (upanaya ), and the conclusion (nigamana ).

This could be an example:

Proposition    : The mind is not eternal

Ground          : because it is detectable by the senses

Corroberation: It is like a pot

Application    :  As a pot is detectable by the senses, 

                        and is non eternal, so is the mind 

                        detectable by the senses.

Conclusion    : Therefore, the mind is not eternal

It is amazing to see, how thousands of years ago the homo sapiens already tried to figure out what goes on in his mind.

And if you then realize, that we have computers now………

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

511: Indian philosophy and the Greeks

When you look behind me on the maps, one tells you the the length of the road between Taxila and Athens and the other shows where Alexander the Great has been.

Indian contacts with the Western world date back to prehistoric times. Trade relations, preceded by the migration of peoples, inevitably developed into cultural relations.  

This view is not only amply supported by both philological and archaeological evidence, but by a vast body of corroborative literary evidence as well: 

Vedic literature and Jewish chronicles, and the accounts of Greek historians all suggest contact between India and the West. 

Taxila was a great center of commerce and learning. Buddha is reputed to have studied in Taxila. Pythagorean and Platonic philosophy show influences of Indian thought and spirituality.

"It is more likely that Pythagoras ( died about 495 BC) was influenced by India than by Egypt. Almost all the theories, religions, philosophical and mathematical taught by the Pythagoreans, were known in India in the sixth century B.C., 

and the Pythagoreans, like the Buddhists, refrained from the destruction of life and eating meat and regarded certain vegetables such as beans as taboo. 

It seems that the so-called Pythagorean theorem of the quadrature of the hypotenuse was already known to the Indians in the older Vedic times, and thus before Pythagoras. “, according to H. G. Rawlinson ( 1902 +,  English scholar and historian). 

The notion that spirits or souls of dead persons may inhabit or "possess" animals or plants is widespread among both ancient and modern peoples in many parts of the world. 

But the belief that the life-force or soul of the individual passes from life to life, inhabiting a different physical body in each existence, is a much rarer doctrine. 

Known as metempsychosis or transmigration of souls, it is found in developed form in the ancient world only in India and Greece. 

Metempsychosis appears in rudimentary form in the Upanishads, and subsequently became incorporated into the ethical teaching of all the major Indian thought-systems down to the present day.

But in both India and Greece, metempsychosis in its characteristic and fullest development was a decisively ethical doctrine. The present status of every living being, 

whether human or animal, man or woman, high- or low-caste, was believed to be the direct result of the quality of its behavior in previous earthly existences.

Another issue, which amused me to discover, was, that what I was told as a child already dates back to the 8th century B.C. and first came to history's attention in the person of Mahavira (ca. 540-468 B.C.).

A doctrine of Jainism teaches that each living creature possesses a material soul (jiva) which is originally pure and colorless, but through the activities of life becomes contaminated by karmic matter. 

Every act committed by man or beast is believed to produce karmic coloring on the soul-light colors for virtuous deeds, medium tones for minor offenses, with the darkest shades being reserved for serious transgressions. 

Since dark-colored stains are supposed to weigh down the soul, while lighter ones allow it to rise, the light-colored souls will be reborn correspondingly as gods or humans, the darker ones as animals or plants, or as inhabitants of Hell.

Jainism is an Indian religion that prescribes a path of non-violence towards all living beings and emphasizes spiritual independence and equality between all forms of life. It still has millions of believers in India.

I was told, that I as a catholic boy, had a soul and that this soul was white. However, every time I sinned, there would appear a black spot on my white soul.

If my soul would be completely black, I would go straight to hell. Jainists believe, that non-violence and self-control are the means by which they can obtain a pure and colorless soul.

I was told, that I could clean my soul again by a confession and penance.

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] Zanicia: Amazing

[13:20] Nectanebus: nice

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:20] Corronach: i will take your confession now. ;)

[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes..if you mean the Jainist doctrine about the colors of the soul, ZANICIA

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:20] Zanicia: doesn't that all go to show how very dangerously vulnerable the human mind is?!!!!

[13:21] Nectanebus: I like how you touched on the Jainist view of positive vs negative karma, as that contrasts with the Buddhist view of "all attachment is colourless karma"

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you Corronach....after class plz :-)

[13:21] CorronachCorronach giggles

[13:21] herman Bergson: In what way vulnerable, ZANICIA ?

[13:22] Velvet: And that's why I'm a recovering Catholic!

[13:22] Velvet: I'm more attracted to the Buddhist view.

[13:22] Zanicia: we sponge up doctrines, theories, thoughts. Often, as yourself, when most vulnerable, as young people

[13:23] herman Bergson: We love fairytales...

[13:23] Velvet: there's a reason you're trained early

[13:23] .: Beertje :.: remarkable that what we have learned is taught since the 8 cent BC...

[13:23] Nectanebus: I think it's interesting to see the parallel's with the metempsychosis, but I'd venture the idea could have come to Greeks independently of India.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes surprised me too Beertje

[13:23] Nectanebus: sorry, typo

[13:24] herman Bergson: Well....

[13:24] herman Bergson: how the exchange of knowledge took place and to what extend is a vague story....

[13:24] Velvet: Beertje, I'm still wrapping my mind around that/

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: so the bible took several things from ancient believes

[13:24] herman Bergson: Oh yes Beertje, like the Greek did too

[13:25] Velvet: The Bible took many things from many authors.

[13:25] herman Bergson: It is not surprising that Greek philosophy emerged in Asia Minor...

[13:25] Areyn Laurasia: if black is the absence of color... then the pur and colorless soul would be black?

[13:25] herman Bergson: It was the Western border of the Persian Empire of Darius I

[13:25] Nectanebus: ALex made waves, after all haha

[13:25] Areyn Laurasia: *pure

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: or transparent

[13:26] herman Bergson: 500 BC...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: maybee

[13:26] Nectanebus: @Areyn: for Buddhists, perhaps.

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: transparent is also lack of color bu the object itself

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: by

[13:26] herman Bergson: while the eastern border was Punjab....Taxila...

[13:27] herman Bergson: How much ideas came from where we'll never know for certain

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: maybe it's one big melting pot:)

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: can be

[13:27] herman Bergson: But Hindu web pages are pretty chauvinistic about Indian wisdom through the centuries

[13:27] Nectanebus: more so now, methinks

[13:27] Zanicia: I shall look differently next time I see a plate of beans!

[13:27] Nectanebus: (the melting pot)

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: everyone chooses what he or she could use at that time

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well...you got situations that a whole regiment of Indian soldiers were stationed i Asia Minor for instance...

[13:29] herman Bergson: and those were not only illiterate people I guess

[13:29] herman Bergson: another source is Buddhist missionary activity...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Wandering holy men..shamans.....

[13:30] Nectanebus: That's another thing: the beans seemed to be an inherently Platonic restriction, no mention of it anywhere to my knowledge apart from Yazidism

[13:30] herman Bergson: I have no idea what is wrong with beans :-)

[13:30] Zanicia: did they think the beans were inhabited by souls?

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: maybe they contain the beginning of life?

[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: perhaps because beans are seeds to a life

[13:31] CorronachCorronach ponders the beans

[13:31] Nectanebus: who was it that thought farts made one lose part of their soul? I'm sure that was Greek thing....

[13:31] Corronach: you must be on to something...

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: beans beans good for your heart, the more you eat the more you fart

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:31] Zanicia: never heard of that one!

[13:31] herman Bergson: lol...that could be an explanation Nectanebus :-))

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: on the other hand not happens when i eat beans fortunaetley

[13:32] Nectanebus: actually, that was directly related to the lecture

[13:32] herman Bergson: But I wondered myself why exactly BEANS are a taboo

[13:32] Nectanebus: www.massline.org/PhilosDog/P/Pythagoras.htm

[13:32] Nectanebus: CIcero was worrie about it too

[13:32] herman Bergson: also because of beans Nectanebus?

[13:33] Nectanebus: yup

[13:33] Nectanebus: I knew this rang a bell

[13:33] Nectanebus: Night Junkies was what got me on to it

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: beans are precious..they are the beginning of life..when you seed them you can feed the world

[13:33] Nectanebus: they mention it in that

[13:33] Nectanebus: I love me some beans

[13:33] Nectanebus: But I'm a soulless sort.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Anyway....as you see that there must have been some influence from India on Greek philosophy...

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: seems that can be the case

[13:34] herman Bergson: Some like to take the view that everything began from scratch with the Greek

[13:34] Velvet: is that because it's the earliest writings?

[13:35] herman Bergson: But if you look at the map, the ideas, you can conclude differently

[13:35] Zanicia: Prior to all this I had low regard for Indian culture....that shows my ignorance, I've discovered!

[13:35] herman Bergson: It was Velvet...but yet a complex situation....

[13:35] Velvet: the same idea can pop up in different places independently

[13:35] Zanicia: Fascinating to delve deeper

[13:35] herman Bergson: you need people who are able to translate!

[13:36] Nectanebus: Greek's nowhere near the earliest writings, I've got friends that study Sumer haha

[13:36] Velvet: translations, hand-copied manuscripts, errors

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: but is such a translation reliable?

[13:36] Velvet: sure, Nectanebus!

[13:36] herman Bergson: Sanskrit was one of the very first written languages

[13:36] Velvet: not reliable at all

[13:36] Velvet: but if you cross-reference multiple copies

[13:37] Velvet: you can find commonalities

[13:37] herman Bergson: You just have to imagine how the world looked like in those days.....

[13:37] Zanicia: yes you said before, Herman, I was amazed to hear it

[13:37] herman Bergson: How do you study a foreign language???

[13:37] herman Bergson: I have no idea how they did it....

[13:38] herman Bergson: But there was for instance the ...what was the name Panini Grammer about 500BC....

[13:38] Nectanebus: methodology is something odd with language, trial and error for a large part

[13:38] herman Bergson: The rules of a language on paper!

[13:39] Zanicia: something similar to code-breaking

[13:39] Velvet: no way. you made that up. Grammer?

[13:39] herman Bergson: I guess so, yes.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet...

[13:39] Velvet: Panini>

[13:39] Velvet: lol

[13:39] herman Bergson: I may have spelled the name wrong

[13:39] Nectanebus: yeah, there's similarities to code-breaking

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: sounds to me like...broodje aap:)))

[13:40] Velvet: Rosetta Stone!

[13:40] Zanicia: ah yes of course

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:40] Nectanebus: AH yes, I hate them for not doing Ukrainian courses

[13:40] herman Bergson: no th ename is Panini :-)

[13:41] Areyn Laurasia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pāṇini

[13:41] Velvet: no Nectanebus, literally the Rosetta Stone

[13:41] herman Bergson: exactly Areyn...thnx :-)

[13:41] Areyn Laurasia: you're welcome

[13:41] Velvet: it was Greek and Sumerian and a third language

[13:41] Zanicia: The stone was a code-breaker, so-to-speak

[13:41] Velvet: it decoded a lot for us

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: aaaa yes for the hieroglyphs

[13:42] herman Bergson: Egyptian was the third language on the stone

[13:42] Velvet: yes, thank you

[13:42] Nectanebus: oh, yeah, sorry, I get you. I thought you meant the language courses on CD-ROMs haha

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:42] Velvet: well, it's a great name for language courses!

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes there is also a thing called that

[13:42] herman Bergson: hahaha...That II use to learn Spanish Nectanebus ^_^

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: also familiar

[13:42] Velvet: great marketing plan

[13:42] Zanicia: yes there is! Haha

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed velvet

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: its like Nero Burning rom software

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: same type of name use

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: sort of

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: nero is too bloated with other stuff nowadays though

[13:43] herman Bergson: Guess we now are far away from India :-)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] Velvet: we tend to wander!

[13:43] herman Bergson: What I mentioned today was not yet the real philosophy

[13:44] herman Bergson: but more some religious ideas

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:44] herman Bergson: But they can not be ignored

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: everything come together i guess

[13:44] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...

[13:45] Velvet: it makes me crazy that religion is so irrational and imaginary

[13:45] Velvet: and yet tied up with everything

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:45] Velvet: there's no solid ground

[13:45] herman Bergson: especially because some of the Indian philosophy is a kind of "protest" against all this religious mumbo jumbo

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:46] Nectanebus: There's no solid ground in most science either though, unless you're talking math

[13:46] herman Bergson: But yet it is interesting to read pages on certain Hindu sites

[13:46] Velvet: math is the same as all sciences

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: math is the language of nature

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: if you can calculate something it is true

[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: it's all related

[13:46] Velvet: math is more than calculations. 

[13:46] Velvet: It's patterns

[13:46] Velvet: observations

[13:47] Velvet: projections

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: also what allows a computer to descripe everything we see in natre since it can be made into mathematics

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: nature

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: picture sound ect

[13:47] herman Bergson: Math is not a complete system at all....

[13:47] herman Bergson: there are still unsolvable paradoxes...

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: can be turned to numbers all of it

[13:47] Velvet: math is not about numbers

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats true as well

[13:47] Velvet: numbers are tools

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: math is mystical

[13:48] Zanicia: mystical in my case!

[13:48] herman Bergson: I would prefer a pragmatic approach of math here....

[13:48] herman Bergson: In most cases....it works....

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: mostly is logical and solvable

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: after that you are free to speculate on metaphysical backgrounds

[13:49] Velvet: math is logical an solvable to a point. After that, it's like any other science.

[13:49] Nectanebus: pi, the golden ratio, and fibonacci (sp?) are about as far into math as I go, I'm a language person haha

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: it's actually not fibonacci's

[13:50] Nectanebus: really?

[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: yeah, came from Indian Pingala

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well...for today...look into the history of the relation between INdia and Greece...

[13:51] Velvet: Fibonacci is known for defining something that has existed forever.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aaa the fibonacci series

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: the next number is sum of the 2 previous ones

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: in a number series

[13:51] Nectanebus: yup

[13:51] Nectanebus: I'm a fan of spirals

[13:51] Nectanebus: and fractals

[13:51] herman Bergson: Ok...think about that too :-)

[13:51] Areyn Laurasia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingala

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 ect

[13:52] Zanicia: what are you following this with, Herman?

[13:52] herman Bergson: I reckon it is a good moment to conclude our discussion here ^_^

[13:52] Nectanebus: ok, thanks Herman.

[13:52] Areyn Laurasia: :)

[13:52] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll dig into epistemological and logical issues of Indian philosophy

[13:53] Zanicia: Ok good

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: seems science has a way of moving around geographically due to politics and culture...

[13:53] herman Bergson: And an important part is also the Materiaists in INdian philosophy

[13:53] Nectanebus: I'll be here for the Tuesday catch up on that one, then :)

[13:53] Velvet: Science is observation - it exists everywhere!

[13:53] herman Bergson: So….thank you all for you stimulating participation

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman ㋡

[13:54] Nectanebus: bye all

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: was nice

[13:54] Zanicia: Bravo Herman...fascinating as always

[13:54] herman Bergson: As I just observed.....Class dismissed ^_^

[13:54] Nectanebus: Ia Yog-Sothoth!

[13:54] Velvet: Thank you again, Professor!

[13:54] herman Bergson: But I agree Velvet :-))

[13:54] Velvet: Thanks, herman!

[13:54] Zanicia: Bye Nect

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all soon

[13:54] Corronach: thanks herman

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you ZANICIA

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

510: Introducing India

When I ended the previous lecture with “Our next stop will be in India, which among other things is the birthplace of what we now call logic.” Gemma’s reaction was “Really?”

As a young student of philosophy, 23 years old or so, I learnt about the origins of our logic, or at least that the Greeks didn’t “invent” it, but that its roots lay in India. And I thought..”Really?”

However, hear the serious and respected voice of the MacMillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy: “ The mainstream of the history of logic begins in ancient Greece 

and comes down through the Arabian and European logic of the Middle Ages and through a number of post-Renaissance thinkers to the more or less mathematical developments in logic in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. 

In the period after the fall of Rome many of the ancient achievements were forgotten and had to be relearned; the same thing happened at the end of the Middle Ages. 

Otherwise this Western tradition has been fairly continuous. 

Indian and Chinese logic developed separately.”

A lot of words and then this single statement “Indian and Chinese logic developed separately.”….period. A whole culture and history is thrown in a corner, as if it is completely irrelevant and as if logic and real philosophy originated from the Greek.

Already in our study of Chinese philosophy we ran into the problem of doing justice to Chinese thought by not trying to squeeze it into Western philosophical concepts and vocabulary.

This single statement not even takes the trouble of doing that. It just shows the door to two important cultures, because they are not relevant for the subject of logic.

Then hear this, which comes to the surface, when you do some research on the Internet: “Older than Plato or Confucius, the Upanishads are the most ancient philosophical works and contain the mature wisdom of India's intellectual and spiritual attainment. 

(…) In profundity of thought and beauty of style, they have rarely been surpassed not only in Indian thought but in the Western and Chinese philosophical traditions as well.“

“They” strike back! Not surprising, when you take into account, how the UK humiliated and exploited the ancient culture of India for at least a hundred years, but in those day one believed that it was for the benefit of the people.

Thence it is a good start, if we study some of the historical context first to get a more balanced picture. 

The “Really” of Gemma is quite understandable. When we think of India and Indian wisdom we think of ashrams, people in orange clothes, hara krishna, incense, yogis, Baghwan, rituals  and so on.

But, fortunately, this is not our subject here, because all that is mainly related to all kinds of religious ideas of Buddhism and Hinduism.

We are interested here in Indian PHILOSOPHY. Contrary to Chinese philosophy, where it was rather difficult to stay clear of the religious connotations and historical developments, we can clearly separate philosophy and theology in Indian history.

By the fifth century B.C.E. great social change was taking place in India and a period of intense intellectual activity came into being. 

Rational inquiry into a wide range of topics was under way, including agriculture, architecture, astronomy, grammar, law, logic, mathematics, medicine, phonology, and statecraft.  

This intellectual development was possible because of the existence of Sanskrit, a written language, which has its roots around 1000 B.C.E.

It played the same role as Latin did a 1500 years later in the Middle Ages, when every scholar in Europe could read and communicate in this language.

- quote -

“The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either…”

- end quote

These are the words of Sir William Jones, an Anglo-Welsh philologist and scholar of ancient India, speaking to The Asiatic Society in Calcutta on February 2, 1786.

To be continued….. Thank you ^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:21]  herman Bergson: To be continued‚ .. Thank you ^_^

[13:21]  herman Bergson: .

[13:21]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman  

[13:21]  Bejiita Imako: thats a goodstarton the subject

[13:21]  Bejiita Imako:  

[13:21]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): thank you herman

[13:21]  herman Bergson: Thank you...

[13:21]  quaezar.agnomen): Interesting ! :) Thanks

[13:22]  herman Bergson: It is a huge subject...

[13:22]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): I really learned something tonight. My respects, Herman

[13:22]  Bejiita Imako: can imagine that

[13:22]  herman Bergson: and revealing a lot we are hardly aware of....

[13:22]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): western thinking as always

[13:22]  herman Bergson: For instance....there in India we find the oldest university of the world

[13:23]  Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:23]  herman Bergson: I'll talk about that in the next lecture

[13:23]  Bejiita Imako: they were pioneers in some things for sure

[13:23]  herman Bergson: What I also learnt is that religion in India is still a barrel of gunpowder....

[13:23]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could everyone in India read and write at that time?

[13:24]  Dag (daggash.bayn): thank you herman , I wonder if that development can be referred to some prominent names or schools...?

[13:24]  herman Bergson: The educated people could, Beertje

[13:24]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the upperclass you mean?

[13:24]  herman Bergson: No not really.....

[13:25]  herman Bergson: even when you were poor and gifted you could join a teacher in Taxila, for instance

[13:25]  herman Bergson: It even was not done to ask money for teaching....

[13:25]  herman Bergson: Gifts from the rich students was allowed

[13:26]  Bejiita Imako: just simply to give education to people

[13:26]  Bejiita Imako: thats nice

[13:26]  herman Bergson: What development did you refer to Dag?

[13:26]  Dag (daggash.bayn): I mean the intellectual one

[13:27]  Dag (daggash.bayn): does it have any references or was it just the spirit of the time?

[13:27]  herman Bergson: Well....the first stage was the Upanishads....

[13:27]  herman Bergson: mainly liturgical manuals and books of prayers.....

[13:28]  herman Bergson: But not rituals....they cam later....with the Veda...about 300 BCE...

[13:28]  Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:28]  herman Bergson: and next to that  developed the materialists...in fact the real secular philosophy....

[13:29]  herman Bergson: besides that....Buddha was a kind of too, for he oppoesed with his teachings agains the Brahmanism with their rituals

[13:29]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves at everyone, thanks Herman again. Time for bed. See you all next week 

[13:30]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye   

[13:30]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): Goodnight Chantel

[13:30]  herman Bergson: Bye chantal

[13:30]  Bejiita Imako: bye chantal

[13:30]  herman Bergson: For us the schools of materialist are most interesting

[13:31]  herman Bergson: Even tho the indian culture is dominated by Hinduism

[13:31]  herman Bergson: if this is a beginning of an answer to your question Dag? :-)

[13:31]  Dag (daggash.bayn): Rational inquiry into a wide range of topics was under way, including agriculture, architecture, astronomy, grammar, law, logic, mathematics, medicine, phonology, and statecraft.

[13:32]  Dag (daggash.bayn): not really sorry

[13:32]  Dag (daggash.bayn): I meant to ask , who were the people behind all this ?

[13:32]  herman Bergson: What these words refer to is the fact that indian scholars got interested in the form of arguments....

[13:33]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:33]  Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:33]  herman Bergson: The people of the Northern part of India....the Punjab

[13:33]  Dag (daggash.bayn): I see

[13:33]  Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:33]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): this will be all new

[13:33]  herman Bergson: on the map behind me you see Taxila.....the intellectual center since 500 BCE

[13:34]  herman Bergson: and the people from the Punjab seem to have been immigrants around 2000 BCE from the north....

[13:34]  Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:35]  herman Bergson: because Sanskrit as a language seems to be related to Indo-European languages, like slavic languages

[13:35]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:35]  Bejiita Imako: i see¬®

[13:35]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): hmm

[13:36]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): certainly is a loaded subject

[13:36]  herman Bergson: As you see...there is still a lot information about this subject

[13:36]  herman Bergson: And what I found important is to describe the historical background first

[13:37]  herman Bergson: Especially  to reveal the relations between Greece and India around 400 to 300 BCE

[13:37]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:38]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is that tuesday?

[13:38]  herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll elaborate on that relation

[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: aaa yes i see thete is a line across the map from Athens to Taxila

[13:38]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:38]  Areyn Laurasia: That's a long distance to travel in those days...

[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: just wondered what that was

[13:38]  herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....they traveled that all the way...

[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: thats long

[13:38]  herman Bergson: among them was Alexander the great

[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: aaa that guy I know about

[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: „ã°

[13:39]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): haha

[13:39]  herman Bergson: I also put up a picture of Sanskrit.....a small example

[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:40]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): yes

[13:40]  herman Bergson: if you click the picture you'll see the URL where you can get a free course in Sanskrit :-))

[13:40]  Free introductory course Sanskrit: http://sanskritdocuments.org/learning_tutorial_wikner/wikner-rm.pdf

[13:40]  Free introductory course Sanskrit: http://sanskritdocuments.org/learning_tutorial_wikner/wikner-rm.pdf

[13:40]  Areyn Laurasia: Thanks :)

[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: aaa awesome

[13:40]  Dag (daggash.bayn): before we go sleep herman ?

[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: if i can learn 10 programming languages at once i can probably throw some sanskrit in the mix as well

[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:40]  herman Bergson: Be careful not to download the PDF with Safari if you have a Mac

[13:40]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): next tuesday a test in sanskrit?

[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: damn love thisnew machine!

[13:41]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no tests!!!!

[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: works great

[13:41]  herman Bergson: No test Beertje :-)

[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: does it crash safari?

[13:41]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): phew!

[13:41]  herman Bergson: No....

[13:41]  herman Bergson: But when you download with Safari Acrobat does not recognize the PDF for some odd reason

[13:42]  herman Bergson: So I used Chrome which worked perfectly

[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: ok, weird

[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: chrome is a good standard browser to use i think

[13:42]  herman Bergson: Yes...especially while in the text is said that PDF1 is specially prepared for PC and MAC :-))

[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: also test all my own web programming in it

[13:42]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..I have to go

[13:43]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight every one

[13:43]  herman Bergson: Take care Beertje :-)

[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: might be safari changes the file in some way

[13:43]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): good night

[13:43]  herman Bergson: I think so, Bejiita

[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: night Beertje

[13:43]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): Bye Beejiita

[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye 

[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: bye Zanica

[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•

[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman

[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it tuesday

[13:44]  herman Bergson: Thank you all for your interest again :-)

[13:44]  Areyn Laurasia: Thanks, Professor

[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: this will be great!

[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: „ã°

[13:44]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): excellent tonight

[13:44]  herman Bergson: If there arent any more questions or remarks???

[13:44]  herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not yet

[13:44]  Areyn Laurasia: goggling upanishad :)

[13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i am going to excuse myself today

[13:45]  herman Bergson: You can find free texts of the Upanishads.....

[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): getting ready for the one billion rising tomorrow

[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  

[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now

[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: that will be nice

[13:45]  Dag (daggash.bayn): thank you herman and bye everyone

[13:45]  Areyn Laurasia: is there an event in sl for that, Gemma?

[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: are there any lms out yet?

[13:45]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): bye gemma

[13:45]  herman Bergson: Bye Dag

[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:45]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): Goodbye everyone

[13:45]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): bye dag

[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: was year before too

[13:45]  Areyn Laurasia: nite everybody

[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops

[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: great event for a good thing

[13:45]  Areyn Laurasia: seems a pity, they haven't even resolved the case

[13:47]  Areyn Laurasia: well, have a good night, everyone.. more reading to do..

[13:47]  herman Bergson: ok Aryen :-))

[13:48]  Bejiita Imako: bye