521: Islamic philosophy and the death penalty for the atheist

In  my previous lecture I said: “The situation is thus: The function of the Prophet is to reveal the religious law (shari‘a) while the Imam unveils gradually to his disciples the inner meaning of the revelation through the ta’wil, which is going back to the original meaning of the Quran.

But there is more than just the explanation of meaning of words and statements. Man can’t be stopped to think past beliefs, question beliefs.”

And here I was referring to the developments in Arabic culture and philosophy from 750 to 1258 CE under the Abbasis Caliphate.

I said, “Man can’t be stopped to think past beliefs, question beliefs.” He better should, when he lives today in the following 13 countries:

Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.

The reason is, that in those countries you’ll have to face the death penalty, if you dare to question the sense or nonsense of religion or just make known, that you are an atheist, but christian or liberal muslim will do too.

These countries happens to be part of Arabic culture or dominated by a religion which originated from Arabic culture. But let me be fair.

Criticism of religious faith or even academic study of the origins of religions is frequently treated as a crime and can be equated to the capital offense of blasphemy, it asserted.

In Austria, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Malta and Poland where blasphemy laws allow for jail sentences up to three years on charges of offending a religion or believers.

In these and all other EU countries, with the exception of the Netherlands and Belgium which the report classed as "free and equal," there was systemic discrimination across society favoring religions and religious believers.

Read about it all in http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/atheists-death-penalty-_n_4417994.html

I intended to speak about how Plato and Aristotle were translated into Arabic and what impact it had on Islamic philosophy, but this morning it was in the news , that Saudi-Arabia had just passed a law that equated atheism with terrorisme and thence to be punished with a death penalty.

I have to address this issue, because in Arabic culture religion and philosophy are so closely intertwined. Around 750 we see the introduction of Greek thinking in Arabic culture.

History gave us a series of great names:

Al-Kindı (c. 801 – c. 873) 

Al-Farabı ( 870 - 950 )  

Avicenna ( 980 - 1037 ) 

Al-Ghazalı ( 1058 -1111 ) 

Ibn Bajja ( died 1139 ) 

Ibn Tufayl ( c.1105 – 1185)

Averroes ( 1126 - 1198)

Suhrawardi ( 1155–1191)

Ibn  Arabı ( 1165–1240)

Mulla  Sadra  ( 1571-1640 )

With the exception of Mulla Sadra, which can be explained,  all happened between 800 and 1200. After that a big silence. 

What happened? Religion took over and it became the dominant factor in politics. Everyone who questioned religious principles, questioned the state and who questions the state deserves a death penalty.

We are used to look at history as a long series of eminent individuals , who contributed to this or that in science and philosophy. This is not how Arab culture is structured. That consists of religious communities, Shi’ites, Sunnits, Alawites, Salfists etc.

The unbound reason of Greek  philosophy, which would grant primacy to reason over revelation, was attacked by al-Ghazali ( 1058 -1111 ) 

and then by a host of lesser figures, leading  to the hard blow dealt by Ibn Taymiyyain his “Refutation of the Rationalists”.

This meant the end of any independent and individualistic scientific and intellectual development in Arabic culture and explains 

why Arabs do not  think of politics as the relationship between individuals and the state, but mainly as the balance of power among communities, based on religious ideologies.

And this also explains to us why neither the War in Iraq, nor the Arabic Spring has brought democracy and Human Rights to the Arabic world. Everything gets bogged down in tribal fights along the lines of religious factions.

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Cambridge Companion to Arabic Philosophy, P.Adamson & R.Taylor

The Discussion

[13:15] herman Bergson: Thank you .....

[13:16] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:16] Qwark Allen: awesome lecture

[13:16] herman Bergson: Feel free to take the floor,  if you feel to it

[13:16] Merlin: If you have totalitarianism you have no room for the politics our our kind

[13:16] Debbie dB: thanks herman.

[13:16] Bejiita Imako: in other words there will never be peace in those countries since they are "jammed " into this structure

[13:17] Bejiita Imako: no nice development for sure

[13:17] herman Bergson: What is interesting is how different the homo sapiens organizes his society.....based on such diverse principles

[13:18] herman Bergson: And we face the question.....can we say that some principles are better than other?

[13:18] Debbie dB: and why it happens - its purely the leadership direction along the path of time.

[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie.....

[13:18] Merlin: I still think Oil has something to do with it....

[13:18] herman Bergson: the arab ruler was of divine quality...

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: the oil cause trouble too i guess

[13:19] Merlin: because people get an income from basically doing nothing

[13:19] Merlin: they have not technology, just trade

[13:19] Laila Schuman: i once said to an Arab friend... that I don't understand why Arabs kill Arabs... he did not answer... what you have said today gives me a sad, hopeless kind of feeling about the future

[13:19] Debbie dB: like the stock exchange millionaires?

[13:19] Qwark Allen: well, the most advanced cities in the world are in those countries

[13:19] herman Bergson: The oil was just a lucky thing for the arabs....

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: true, all technology development have basically stopped here in faroe of relious beliefs and rules

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: taking them backwards and not forwards in time

[13:20] Honey  Bee: the oil just happens to be in that corner

[13:20] herman Bergson: I would say Qwark, that is because there the money is....

[13:20] Merlin: Oil has been responsible for huge increase in their population hasnt it?

[13:20] herman Bergson: Not only or just the oil.....

[13:20] Qwark Allen: yes, just to say that they are not like the old nomad tribes, with a camel

[13:20] Debbie dB: Oil is such a blip in historical time - 120 years so far, and only another 50 left - maybe...

[13:21] Honey  Bee: maybe so , increase wealth , food etc then we can expect incerase in population

[13:21] herman Bergson: the fact that  the Wets discovered and developed explosion engines is an important fact

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:21] herman Bergson: if from the begining all was based on electricity, oil would have been worthless

[13:21] Qwark Allen: religion we know its just a way to take control of the poor, of mind and/or economically

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: cause today all need gasoline guzzling cars to get around

[13:22] Honey  Bee: yes it is

[13:22] herman Bergson: Religion is the social bonding thing....

[13:22] Qwark Allen: when people in those countries have access to other reality of information, things change a bit

[13:22] herman Bergson: and threatening with a death penalty if you question that is very effective

[13:22] Honey  Bee: yes people have a need to belong to something and need direction

[13:23] Qwark Allen: oh yes, everyone wants to be very religious

[13:23] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:23] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:23] Qwark Allen: better have the head on top

[13:23] Debbie dB: not me quark ;)))

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:23] Qwark Allen: ehehhe was a joke

[13:23] Debbie dB: ¨°º©©º°¨=^ L A F F S ^=¨°º©©º°¨

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: science and real fact is king

[13:24] herman Bergson: there is another interesting fact about Arabic philosophy/..

[13:24] Qwark Allen: i`ll say laic open societies do better

[13:24] herman Bergson: I said that all scientific development etc died.....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: here you make people believe that blowing each other up make you meet the master

[13:24] Qwark Allen: we have that knowledge already from the 17th century

[13:24] herman Bergson: But that is not entirely true.....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: and thus they just continue

[13:24] Honey  Bee: i agree Bejiita

[13:24] herman Bergson: Why is Iran developing nuclear power...? THAT is science!

[13:25] Bejiita Imako whispers: all time i hear in news, 100 dead here 200 there BANG BOOOM KABLAM!

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: insane!

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: make me sad

[13:25] herman Bergson: Plz wait Bejiita

[13:25] Qwark Allen: when we separated religion from the state in the 17th century, we have seen a big evolution

[13:25] MerlinMerlin smiles at what Bejiita said

[13:25] herman Bergson: this is de difference between Sunnits and Shi'ites....

[13:26] Debbie dB: well, what is the purpose of life? We have no way of guaging right from wrong in beliefs...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] Qwark Allen: there was no evolution like it in the previous 17 centuries

[13:26] Debbie dB: and the twig in the eye of consumerism is evident.

[13:26] herman Bergson: The Shi'ite philosophy "saved" so to speak the "intellectual sciences"

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: that is a good thing

[13:26] herman Bergson: That explains the position of Mulla Sadra in history....

[13:26] Qwark Allen: where are they from?

[13:27] Qwark Allen: shi itas

[13:27] Qwark Allen: like iran?

[13:27] herman Bergson: it is a faction.....and they live in the area which is called the Shiite Crescend....

[13:27] herman Bergson: rising moon....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:28] herman Bergson: it refers to the area which is Shite.....beginning in Iran and then going north then left to Lebanon

[13:28] herman Bergson: So with a wide turn around Saudi-Arabia for instance

[13:29] herman Bergson: You might say that Shiites are a bit more intellectual friendly than Sunnits :-)

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:29] Honey  Bee: could it be climate to make some areas violent ? maybe natural toxins in the soil , sand , air ?

[13:29] Qwark Allen: its about shi itas

[13:29] herman Bergson: ahh...the link....

[13:30] herman Bergson: one moment...I referred to a report...

[13:30] herman Bergson: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/atheists-death-penalty-_n_4417994.html

[13:30] Qwark Allen: i bet countries with shi itas are more advanced technologically then the sunites

[13:30] herman Bergson: As a conclusion ....read the article.....:-)

[13:31] herman Bergson: And may I thank you all again for your participation....

[13:31] Debbie dB: Thanks Prof...

[13:31] herman Bergson: wild guess Qwark...but I am inclined to believe the same ^_^

[13:31] Qwark Allen: ehehhe

[13:31] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:32] Qwark Allen: i think its easy to guess that one

[13:32] herman Bergson: Well look at Iran....

[[13:32] Debbie dB: see you all soon - got to rush ;)

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: i ve not read so much about how they differ but they are not exactly friends

[13:32] herman Bergson: They are Iranian scientists

[13:32] Qwark Allen: iran is good

[13:33] Qwark Allen: doing a lot new stuff from almost scratch

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: night Lizzy

[13:34] Qwark Allen: thank you herman, was really nice class

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:34] Merlin: gn Lizzy

[13:34] Qwark Allen: gladd i could come

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: cu on monday then

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:34] Qwark Allen: yaaay, not sunday?

[13:34] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:34] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:34] herman Bergson: I always appreciate your participation Qwark :-)

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: im dancing on sunday

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:34] Qwark Allen: ty herman, always like to come

[13:35] Chantal: Thank you Herman, indeed explained a lot ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: but maybee have time to come in a bit later

[13:35] Qwark Allen: yes was very enlightning

[13:35] Honey  Bee: Good to see you again prof. Bergson

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: it always is

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergson: So I answered your expectations Chantal?

[13:35] herman Bergson: My pleasure too Honey:-))

[13:35] Qwark Allen: somehow i think we lost a bit the notion, that the religion powers, are still around

[13:35] Chantal: ㋡ you always do :)

[13:35] Merlin: Bye everyone who's still here

[13:36] Honey  Bee: bye

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: goodnight Merlin

[13:36] Chantal: Bye everyone ㋡

520: Arabic philosophy and Logic

At a given moment in history, when a society is not primarily occupied with hunting, gathering and farming to survive, it gets time to think beyond that.

We have seen it in Chinese culture, Indian culture and in Greece. And eventually we see it happen in Arabic culture too a 1000 years later than in Greece.

It was the advent of the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258) that signaled the beginnings of an interest in philosophy on the part of the ruling elite. 

This was manifested itself in a translation movement which in the first place translated Syriac texts of philosophy into Arabic, but which later turned to the Aristotelian texts themselves and the commentaries written on them in late antiquity.

Syriac is a dialect of Middle Aramaic that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent and Eastern Arabia. I already mentioned it in the previous lecture in relation to the origins of the Quran.

Having first appeared as a script in the 1st century AD after being spoken as an unwritten language for five centuries, Classical Syriac became a major literary language throughout the Middle East from the 4th to the 8th centuries.

The situation is thus: The function of the Prophet is to reveal the religious law (shari‘a) while the Imam unveils gradually to his disciples the inner meaning of the revelation through the ta’wil, which is going back to the original meaning of the Quran.

But there is more than just the explanation of meaning of words and statements. Man can’t be stopped to think past beliefs, question beliefs.

And this confronts us with the more fundamental questions like: Is this statement true? And if true, is it necessarily true or just accidentally? How do you validate the truth of a statement?

In fact, such questions belong to the greatest discoveries of our mind, because they ask for the way the mind operates in understanding life, the world.

You could say that after the standard religious answer in the form of a theological text, in this case the Quran, philosophers take the questioning one step further. They begin to reason.

We all reason. We try to figure out what is so, reasoning on the basis of what we already know. We try to persuade others that something is so by giving them reasons. 

Keep in mind that this is common practice for us today, but 790 CE this was innovative knowledge, new ways of looking at things, a formalized way of reasoning: logic.

Logic is the study of what counts as a good reason for what. and why. You have to understand this claim in a certain way, though. 'Here are two bits of reasoning - logicians call them inferences:

1. Rome is the capital of Italy, and this plane lands in Rome; so the plane lands in Italy.

2. Moscow is the capital of the USA; so you can't go to Moscow without going to the USA.

In each case, the claims before the 'so' - logicians call them premisses - are giving reasons; the claims after the ·so' - logicians call them conclusions- are what the reasons are supposed to be reasons for. 

The first piece of reasoning is fine; but the second is pretty hopeless, and wouldn't persuade anyone with an elementary knowledge of geography: the premiss, that Moscow is the capital of the USA, is simply false. 

Notice, though, that if the premiss had been true- if, say, the USA had bought the whole of Russia (not just Alaska) and had moved the White House to Moscow to be nearer the centres of power in Europe - the conclusion would indeed have been true. 

It would have followed from the premisses; and that is what logic is concerned with. It is not concerned with whether the premisses of an inference are true or false.

What philosophers became aware of was the fact, that there is a proposition which is in a way prior to every other truth: it is prior because it is a proposition which anyone who knows anything must accept and because it is impossible actually to disbelieve it. 

Which proposition that is and which the Arab philosophers learnt from Aristotle, I’ll reveal in the next lecture unless of course you already know or can guess…^_^

The Discussion

[13:31] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:31] herman Bergson: Feel free to ask your questions or make your remarks :-)

[13:32] herman Bergson: Floor is yours...

[13:32] Debbie dB: Oh. - rereads last section...

[13:32] herman Bergson: an A if you have the answer Debbie ^_^

[13:32] Debbie dB: interesting lecture - thanks Herman. And hi friends ;)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hmm interesting, what proposition can that be really?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita ..it is such common knowledge to us now......

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i guess i ll get an "of course" moment when i find out

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: Just imagine that in those days it was really a new insight

[13:35] herman Bergson: well maybe not  really a new insight...but finally stated in a formal way....

[13:35] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman! ... interesting! and hi to Debbie:-)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: its something totally logical for sure i bet

[13:35] Debbie dB: hmm... thinks that the proposition has to do with the need or ability ion?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Just a hint....we are talking about the discovery of LOGIC  here

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: Did I understand right that the greek Philosophers have been translated first to Armaic and later to Syriac language?

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: this must lead us to a 'aha' moment...

[13:36] Debbie dB: If we ask a question, then there can be a proposition, and a reason.

[13:36] herman Bergson: The greek philosophers were in the beginning translated from Syriac which is a dialect of Middle Aramaic, Lizzy....

[13:37] herman Bergson: Later the Arabs began translating the original Greek texts...

[13:37] herman Bergson: Especially the works of Aristotle

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: and they made mistakes?

[13:38] herman Bergson: why that Beertje?

[13:38] .: Beertje :.: because of so many translations..mistakes are easy made

[13:38] herman Bergson: Lots of translators make mistakes ..yes....

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: and we got the greek philosophy back when the arabs conquered europe

[13:39] herman Bergson: oh...for that you have endless  debates on how to translate some words....

[13:39] .: Beertje :.: f.i..the virgins seem to be grapes...

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy...Aristotle came through Spain back into European philosophy

[13:40] herman Bergson: ahhh the 72 grapes :-)....the documentary I mentioned last time....yes fascinating...and disappointing for the martyres

[13:41] herman Bergson: ok...just to help you...

[13:41] herman Bergson: let me reveal the answer about that proposition :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: .

[13:41] Debbie dB: Mind creaks with disuse...

[13:42] herman Bergson: The proposition in question is what we usually call the principle of non-contradiction: "it is impossible for the same thing to be both affirmed and denied of the same thing at the same time and in the same way''.

[13:42] herman Bergson: A is not not-A

[13:42] Debbie dB: ok. eureka.

[13:42] Debbie dB:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: a thing cant be both true and false at same time i guss

[13:43] Debbie dB: what about the need to ask the question, and then using A=A

[13:43] herman Bergson: seems so simple......

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: or something like that

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...you use this idea every day.....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:43] herman Bergson: yet there is no way to proof it

[13:44] Debbie dB: If you dont ask what is A, if A doesnt exist, then A not equal A

[13:44] herman Bergson: neither to deny it because then you assume the same principle a priori :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: no Debbie.....

[13:45] herman Bergson: then the proposition is A exists....or it is : A does not exist...

[13:45] herman Bergson: you have to ask one of the questions :-)

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: true false, there, not there , 1 0

[13:46] Debbie dB: Ok fair enough. but the theoretical answers only come when the question is asked.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: sort of like that

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: one of them it must be

[13:47] Debbie dB: there are many answers that have no questions yet ;)

[13:47] herman Bergson: the core of the matter is that the content fo "A" is irrelevant.....

[13:47] Debbie dB: agreed.

[13:47] herman Bergson: whatever it is...the rule applies

[13:47] Debbie dB: and if it is irrelevant, then a may not = A

[13:48] Debbie dB: in logis its a X - or "dont care" condition

[13:48] herman Bergson: you only can claim that when you assume that A = A :-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: three values logic?

[13:49] Debbie dB: all logic uses yes, no, indeterminate, and dont care. see Karnaugh maps ;)

[13:49] herman Bergson: 0, 1, undecided?

[13:49] Debbie dB: nope - 0.1 dont care

[13:49] Debbie dB: as in not implicated in the answer.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Aristotle would have difficulty with that Debbie ^_^

[13:50] Debbie dB: I design logic circuits. standard boolean logic includes the states - and X

[13:50] herman Bergson: I'll check out Karnaugh :-)

[13:51] Debbie dB: dont know, and dont care

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aaa you make things like cpus and similar?

[13:51] Debbie dB: yep

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: microchips

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: that’s highly logical things indeed

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: and i like to program them

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: You mean your designs are not binary Debbie?

[13:51] Debbie dB: and they work and can show A=A ;)

[13:52] Debbie dB: they are binary herman. the x and - are used to manipulate equations to remove redundancy.

[13:53] Debbie dB: The dash means - this input makes no difference

[13:53] herman Bergson: but this is not about truth values...it is about do this ..or do't do this....or do nothing????

[13:53] Debbie dB: the x means - the output state doesn’t matter here.

[13:53] Debbie dB: you said it was logic, sir ;)

[13:54] Debbie dB: logic

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: well same analogy i guess

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: either you do = 1 = true or you dont = 0 = false

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes.....

[13:54] Debbie dB: or you think it matters, but it doesn’t.

[13:54] herman Bergson: or you ignore the output, which is either a 1 or 0 response too, I would say

[13:55] Debbie dB: yes.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:55] herman Bergson: you just ignore the response...

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: 0 id say

[13:55] Debbie dB: it gets more complex with fuzzy logic - or multi level logic.

[13:55] herman Bergson: Ahh yes ....

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: however in some circuits things are off when "pulled high" = 1, the oposite of what would normally be

[13:56] herman Bergson: But in his Introduction to the Kritik der reiner Vernuft Kant said that since Aristotle logic hadn’t changed a bit ^_^

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: many flash memory input pins for ex uses this approach

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: 1 = off and 0 = true

[13:56] herman Bergson: and he was right in 1793 :-)

[13:56] Debbie dB: an inverter bejita - and all inverters represent upside- down question errrors ;)))

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: or not gate

[13:57] herman Bergson: You are talking of non Aristotelian logic which was far beyond Arabic thinking in those days and would be for centuries :-))

[13:57] Debbie dB: The nice thing about humans is we add intuition to logic.

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:58] Debbie dB: lots of our daily reasoning is fuzzy.

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: hehe indeed

[13:58] herman Bergson: Just keep in mind that the A = A  "discovery" was really something in those days.....

[13:58] Debbie dB: I accept that herman.

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: most decisions we make intuitive

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:59] herman Bergson: and it was closely related to epistemological and metaphysical thoughts

[14:00] herman Bergson: Well this was pretty techincal :-)

[14:00] Debbie dB: fair enough. removing the fuzz helps us to understand concepts better.

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:00] herman Bergson: But totally unknown to Aristotle , or the Arab philosophers

[14:00] Debbie dB: theory of thinking stuff... it had to happen first.

[14:01] herman Bergson: Yes but then we are dealing with the history of Logic Debbie ^_^

[14:01] herman Bergson: For the next lecture I yet stick to the arabs and Aristotle :-))

[14:01] Debbie dB: yes ;) I forgot ... Ive been away too long.

[14:02] herman Bergson: So...thank you all for your participation again....

[14:02] .: Beertje :.: no Boolean algebra?

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:02] herman Bergson: Next lecture will tell you more about what the Arabs found in Aristotle and Plato

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: we can do computer programming another time after we are done with this subject

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:02] Debbie dB: there are 10 types of people in the world - those who do binary and those who dont.

[14:03] .: Beertje :.: lol Bejiita

[14:03] herman Bergson: Bool was from the 19th century :-)

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:03] herman Bergson: Ahh ok Bejiita :-)

[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: nice agai herman ㋡

[14:04] Debbie dB: thanks Herman - that was informative and fun.

[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE ***** ***********

[14:04] herman Bergson: and for those who like it...start studying LSL :-))

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[14:04] Debbie dB:  :*★*:. .:*☆*:. .:* APPLAUSE!!! *:. .:*☆*:. .:*★*:.

[14:04] Debbie dB:    ***APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***

[14:04] Debbie dB:                      ¸. ★*´¨)     F*ckn Awesome!

[14:04] Debbie dB:             ¸. ★´ ¸. ★*´¨) ¸. ★*´) ¸. ★*¨) ¸. ★*¨)

[14:04] Debbie dB:             (¸. ★´ *(¸. ★´ *(¸. ★´ *(¸. ★´ *(¸.. ★

[14:04] Debbie dB:    Applause!☆ «´·.¸¸.•.¸¸ YAY¸¸.•.¸¸.·`» Applause!

[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was interesting to listen to you! thanks to all :o))

[14:04] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman, good night everyone!

[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: babaLizzy:-)

[14:04] .: Beertje :.: Thank you Herman and Gute Nacht Lizzy

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again

[14:04] Debbie dB: bye lizz, bejita,beertje bergie

[14:05] Debbie dB: and bye prof herman ;)

[14:05] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie :-)

[14:05] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bye bye ladys :o)) and mister professor see you next week:-)

[14:05] .: Beertje :.: bye bye goodnight

519: Aristotle and the Arab philosophers

At a given moment in history, when a society is not primarily occupied with hunting, gathering and farming to survive, it gets time to think beyond that.

We have seen it in Chinese culture, Indian culture and in Greece. And eventually we see it happen in Arabic culture too a 1000 years later than in Greece.

It was the advent of the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258) that signaled the beginnings of an interest in philosophy on the part of the ruling elite. 

This was manifested itself in a translation movement which in the first place translated Syriac texts of philosophy into Arabic, but which later turned to the Aristotelian texts themselves and the commentaries written on them in late antiquity.

Syriac is a dialect of Middle Aramaic that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent and Eastern Arabia. I already mentioned it in the previous lecture in relation to the origins of the Quran.

Having first appeared as a script in the 1st century AD after being spoken as an unwritten language for five centuries, Classical Syriac became a major literary language throughout the Middle East from the 4th to the 8th centuries.

The situation is thus: The function of the Prophet is to reveal the religious law (shari‘a) while the Imam unveils gradually to his disciples the inner meaning (batin) of the revelation through the ta’wil, which is going back to the original meaning of the Quran.

But there is more than just the explanation of meaning of words and statements. Man can’t be stopped to think past beliefs, question beliefs.

And this confronts us with the more fundamental questions like: Is this statement true? And if true, is it necessarily true or just accidentally? How do you validate the truth of a statement?

In fact, such questions belong to the greatest discoveries of our mind, because they ask for the way the mind operates in understanding life, the world.

You could say that after the standard religious answer in the form of a theological text, in this case the Quran, philosophers take the questioning one step further. They begin to reason.

We all reason. We try to figure out what is so, reasoning on the basis of what we already know. We try to persuade others that something is so by giving them reasons. 

Keep in mind that this is common practice for us today, but in 790 CE this was innovative knowledge, new ways of looking at things, a formalized way of reasoning: logic.

Logic is the study of what counts as a good reason for what. and why. You have to understand this claim in a certain way, though. 'Here are two bits of reasoning - logicians call them inferences:

1. Rome is the capital of Italy, and this plane lands in Rome; so the plane lands in Italy.

2. Moscow is the capital of the USA; so you can't go to Moscow without going to the USA.

In each case, the claims before the 'so' - logicians call them premisses - are giving reasons; the claims after the ·so' - logicians call them conclusions- are what the reasons are supposed to be reasons for. 

The first piece of reasoning is fine; but the second is pretty hopeless, and wouldn't persuade anyone with an elementary knowledge of geography: the premiss, that Moscow is the capital of the USA, is simply false. 

Notice, though, that if the premiss had been true- if, say, the USA had bought the whole of Russia (not just Alaska) and had moved the White House to Moscow to be nearer the centres of power in Europe - the conclusion would indeed have been true. 

It would have followed from the premisses; and that is what logic is concerned with. It is not concerned with whether the premisses of an inference are true or false.

What philosophers became aware of was the fact, that there is a proposition which is in a way prior to every other truth: it is prior because it is a proposition which anyone who knows anything must accept and because it is impossible actually to disbelieve it. 

Which proposition that is and which the Arab philosophers learnt from Aristotle, I’ll reveal in the next lecture unless of course you already know or can guess…^_^

518: Quran and Greek Philosophy

With regard to Arabic or Islamic, I will first take a philosophical stand in this matter. My general principle is that we only have our brains and that everything thought, said or written is solely the product of our brain.

This being said implies, that there are no sources of information outside our brain. It is us, thinking and sentient beings, who make up every theory about our world.

This , of course, brings me in conflict with the following: Muslims believe that the Quran was verbally revealed from God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibril), 

gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE, when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632 CE, the year of his death. This contrary to the Bible, which is said to be written by men, who were only inspired by their god.

Consequently it is easier to do  historical and linguistic research on the bible texts that on those of the Quran. Yet, to understand Arabic philosophy it is important to get the whole historical picture, the landscape in which all emerged.

For instance, there is a link between the Bible and the Quran, for it contains references to over fifty people and events also found in the Bible.

Some suggest that the Quran has developed out of an Aramaic text, the Peshitta, translations from Hebrew and Greek texts in the 2nd Century in the area now called Syria.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDTnPYWc4U

Interesting subject for personal research. You will be surprised to see what is all going on in the debates about  questions like “What is the original language of the Quran, Aramaic or Arab?” and “Quran versus Bible”.

My most amusing find was the answer to the question “Which of the two is the most violent book, The Bible or the Quran?”

If you count the verses, the bible wins by being twice as violent as the Quran. But the bible contains some 84.000 verses while the Quran only some 850.

So if you take proportions into account, the result is the opposite. About 2.4% of the Bible verses refer to violence, while about 5.7% of Quran verses do.

But back to more serious issues. When you look at the historical maps, you see that in the days that the Quran was written and thereafter a lot of wars occurred in the Arabic world.

Let me quote Karen Armstrong here, born 14 November 1944, a British author and commentator known for her books on comparative religion. This is from her book “Islam”:

The Kharajites were extremists but they forced Muslims to consider the question of who was and who was not a Muslim. So important was the political leadership as a religious idea that it led to discussions about the nature of God, predestination and human freedom.

The Kharajites were always a minority group, but their position was important, since it was the first instance of an important Muslim trend, whereby the politics that affected the morality of the ummah (muslim community) led to a new theological development.

From time to time, Muslims who protested against the behaviour of the reigning caliph would retreat from the ummah, like the Kharajites, and summon all true Muslims to join them in a struggle (jihad) for higher Islamic standards.

-end quote-

This was about 657 CE. As you see, in my opinion it seems that little has changed. We still may recognize the same patterns. The Quran was the dominating factor in history and in that world we see strong influences of Greek philosophy, which was much more developed than Arabic thinking of those days.

To some extent, scholars disagree about the role of the Greek sources in Arabic and Islamic philosophy . While acknowledging the existence of a Greek heritage, those who consider the Quran and the Islamic tradition as the main source of inspiration for philosophy

claim that the latter did not arise from the encounter of learned Muslims with the Greek philosophical heritage: instead, according to them philosophy stemmed from the Quranic hikma (“wisdom”). 

As a consequence, the Greek texts in translation are conceived of as instruments for the philosophers to perform the task of seeking wisdom.

However, most scholars frequently side with the opinion that what gave rise to the intellectual tradition of Arabic philosophy was the so-called movement of translation from Greek.

In the next lecture we’ll investigate what this means.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...plz feel free

[13:21] Oceane: thank you herman, nice tuition ㋡

[13:21] Gemma Allen: no names yet buy mohammed

[13:21] Gemma Allen: but

[13:21] herman Bergson: You want names Gemma?

[13:21] Gemma Allen: just wondered

[13:22] herman Bergson: There are a number of Arabic philosophers.....great names

[13:22] Gemma Allen: i will go look at the wiki

[13:22] herman Bergson: For Europe Avicenna and Averoes were the greatest...

[13:22] Gemma Allen: homework

[13:22] Gemma Allen: ah ok

[13:23] herman Bergson: Bu that was around 1050 or so if I am not mistaken.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: They brought in fact Aristotle to Europe

[13:24] herman Bergson: Arab philosophy began in fact with studying and translating the Greek philosophers like Plato and Aristotle

[13:24] Gemma Allen: ahah

[13:24] herman Bergson: But one must be careful in what you say......all pretty sensitive issues.....

[13:24] Merlin: I am a bit confused

[13:25] herman Bergson: the big problem in the debate is the Quran.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: What confuses you Merlin?

[13:25] Merlin: Are you saying it is possible that the Koran was NOT written by Mohammed Herman?

[13:25] herman Bergson: I wouldn’t dare.....

[13:25] Merlin: hehe

[13:26] herman Bergson: But the point is....

[13:26] Merlin: ok

[13:26] herman Bergson: in muslim belief the quran is directly the word of god....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] Daruma Boa: °°

[13:26] herman Bergson: while the bible is just written by men

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: more like a storybook from when they met god or similar

[13:27] Gemma Allen: but considered the word of god

[13:27] herman Bergson: and for instance....historical and linguistic research on the texts of the Quran is not appreciated everywhere

[13:27] Oceane: not everybody likes the hard and merciless light of enlightenment...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: i guess so

[13:28] Merlin: ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: For instance this link with the Aramaic text of the Peshitta...from the 2nd century

[13:28] herman Bergson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDTnPYWc4U

[13:28] herman Bergson: Part of a documentary about this subject.....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: I read that the greek philosophy was almost forgotten in the middle ages and that it was saved be the muslim universities

[13:29] herman Bergson: the posted reactions are perfect examples of how things are today...how people think about such an issue....

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy.....

[13:30] Gemma Allen: i think i did hear that once also

[13:30] Gemma Allen: now that you say it

[13:30] herman Bergson: That was the great contribution of Avicenna and Averoes to scholastic philosophy of the Middle Ages

[13:30] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: The Arabs brought Aristotle to Europe around 1000 - 1100

[13:32] herman Bergson: When you do some research on the internet....it is amazing what you all find on these issues....

[13:32] Daruma Boa: oh thats true^^

[13:32] Daruma Boa: and not everything is true

[13:32] Gemma Allen: considering that Greece is part of Europe

[13:33] herman Bergson: just a search on Quran vs Bible gives you at least 3.8 million hits with in a second

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:33] Gemma Allen: lol\

[13:33] Gemma Allen: life work

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: Averoes we can see on Raphael’s picture behind us btw

[13:33] Merlin: oh no

[13:33] Daruma Boa: ;-)

[13:33] Gemma Allen: ah??

[13:33] Merlin: Those google counts include all sorts of mismatches too

[13:33] herman Bergson: Ahh...I didnt know :-)

[13:33] Daruma Boa: rofl

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: on the left side with a yellow turban

[13:33] Daruma Boa: herman, now u know^^

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well actually I never took the trouble to find out who all are portraited there :-)

[13:34] Gemma Allen: lo

[13:34] Gemma Allen: there is a place i saw that names them all

[13:34] Gemma Allen: a few years ago

[[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes I have seen such maps too :-)

[13:35] Oceane: well to me both sources.. are texts, and all you can do is work on the texts, and both of them are some of the great narrations, II guess mankind needs those narrations to help them making sense in their life....

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Athens

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well Oceane...I was thinking about that all the time preparing for this lecture....

[13:36] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:36] Oceane: ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: Bible and Quran are said to come from god....but that happend centuries ago...

[13:36] herman Bergson: why then....and why has god never spoken again ?

[13:36] Gemma Allen: no one listens :-)

[13:37] herman Bergson: Doesn’t he needed an update of his Bible for instance?

[13:37] Daruma Boa: that is the question for all

[13:37] Merlin: lol

[13:37] Daruma Boa: or better everything

[13:37] Daruma Boa: perhaps 42 is the answer

[13:37] Merlin: lol Daruma

[13:37] Daruma Boa: ^^

[13:37] herman Bergson: on the other hand it is not surprising that these two books still are part of our culture....

[13:37] Merlin: Ive been following that just recently

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: indeed seems god wrote these books to hide again forever someplace

[13:38] herman Bergson: When you look behind me....

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: We can't understand the quran anyway, they say it can only be read correctly in arabic language

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: cause who can say today they’ve seen god for real?

[13:38] herman Bergson: all those wars among arabs was caused by their Islam....

[13:38] Merlin: "Who is this God person anyway?"

[13:38] Daruma Boa: i guess there is no god. we all are god.

[13:39] herman Bergson: this god is named POWER....

[13:39] Daruma Boa: my opinion

[13:39] herman Bergson: the books got connected with the political power of rulers and used for all kinds of political justifications

[13:39] Gemma Allen: oh

[13:39] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:39] Oceane: Well nowadays we have the postmodern age with the vanishing of signs, and values and collective items that making sense, the political subject seems to vanish in the public context, and if you are asking what is the common ground for a society , alot of people might shake their had... because certain values didn´t get transported.. I don´t know if this is the flipside of modern freedom...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed, and with terrible results

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: war war and more war plus oppression of people, esp women

[13:40] herman Bergson: and because they showed to be very useful in controlling the masses we still have them

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: thats the result of this

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: rulers have used the bible for their interests

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and justification to kill people that think different , are homosexual ect

[13:41] Gemma Allen: still do

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats really awful

[13:41] MerlinMerlin smiles to self

[13:41] Daruma Boa: yes all think there is one god who will lead me and give me advice. but everyone has the power to do and lead all on his own. they all forget that.

[13:41] Daruma Boa: forget

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:42] Daruma Boa: it is so^^

[13:42] herman Bergson: What seems to be a fact is that the human brain on the one hand generates these religious ideas and on the other hand seems to need them to understand his life and world

[13:43] Daruma Boa: yup

[13:43] Oceane: well if one thing gets through the masses is that every individual seems to be made responsible for failures that are produced by our system... and even if its a collective fault it gets transported as an individual mistake, this system produces next to exconomical good a lot of psychic illnesses

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: thats for sure

[13:44] Daruma Boa: but the "system" are we

[13:44] Daruma Boa: everyone can get out and change things.

[13:44] herman Bergson: One thing should be observed here.....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: indeed, but they dont since they are to tied up in religious beliefs and thing the great master will save them

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: wont happen

[13:45] herman Bergson: I imply that eventually human rationality should be the prevailing quality of the human mind

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: they have to do that themselves

[13:45] Daruma Boa: true

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and the first they can do is stop blowing everyone up with these damn bimbs

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: bombs

[13:46] herman Bergson: and that will take some more centuries...to complete that process of mental growth

[13:46] Daruma Boa: thats a political thing...

[13:46] Daruma Boa: the bombs

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but its sunni vs shia ect bombing each other all the time for ex

[13:47] herman Bergson: While studying the old sources of our (religious) behavior we may learn what we still have to achieve :-)

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: different thinking groups kill each other and lot of bystanders

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: for nothing¨

[13:47] Daruma Boa: i thought about ukraine or iraq right now

[13:48] Daruma Boa: and mostly its about resources, when they use those things

[13:48] Daruma Boa: when

[13:48] herman Bergson: I suggest that we look how Greek philosophy became part of Arabic thinking and what it meant.....

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:48] herman Bergson: Good for another lecture ^_^

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats inersting since its 2 way different cultures

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: look forward to that

[13:49] Daruma Boa: yes,there is so much to talk about!

[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again :-)

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:49] Gemma Allen: always

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to you professor

[13:49] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Daruma.....that is the nicest and most dangerous issue here :-)

[13:49] Daruma Boa: hope to be here thursday

[13:49] Gemma Allen: hope to be here Thursday

[13:49] Daruma Boa: ;-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: SO I'd say...Class dismissed ^_^

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:50] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

517: Reason in Arabic philosophy

I am still puzzled by the words of Muhammad ibn Zakariyā Rāzī  (854 CE – 925 CE), who asserts that reason is the basis of our human existence:

“In sum, reason is something without which our state would be the state of beasts, infants, and the insane.”, he wrote.

An American catholic bishop compares  in public his president Obama with Stalin and Hitler. Entire nations get into turmoil by a simple drawing. How reasonable is religion? How reasonable is it to be a believer in this or that?

For me the concept of reason is closely related to tolerance, to exchange of arguments, coming to conclusions based on facts and logical reasoning.

Our present subject of study is Arabic philosophy, but also and more often called Islamic philosophy. It shows that you can’t understand the one without  the other.

Contrary to our previous subjects, Chinese and Indian philosophy, it was not to difficult to keep all kinds of theology outside, 

but in the present case the entire history of the subject is so closely intertwined with theology, which is Quran, that I have to deal with this.

In one of my lectures on Indian philosophy I said that the Indians went so far as to concede, that if one wishes to debate with an opponent, one must first find a common epistemological ground upon which to argue. 

In case of Christianity or Islam belief is true, actual knowledge and the source of this knowledge is a book and the source of the book is revelation 

and the revelation is some mental state of the author(s) of the book and this mental state should be accepted as a justified source of information.

al-Razi said: :Through reason we arrive at knowledge of the Creator -He is exalted!- which is the most immense knowledge we can to attain, and the most beneficial object of our aspiration. “

This brings up the question “Is reason a means to show the rationality of our beliefs, to show the reality of revelations?” 

 In English the word reason  has long had, and still has, a large number and a wide variety of senses and uses, related to one another in ways that are often complicated and often not clear.

However, there is one particular sense of the word in which it, with its synonyms or analogues in other languages, has figured prominently in philosophical controversy. 

This is the sense, sometimes distinguished typographically by an initial capital, in which the term is taken to designate a mental faculty or capacity, in which reason might, for example, be regarded as coordinate with, but distinguishable from, sensation, emotion, or will.

This allows me to ask,  what are human beings in a position to do, in virtue of their possession of the faculty of reason? What, by means of reasoning, are we in a position to achieve?

And we have to ask these questions, because by referring to the rationality to use what is written in some book, in our world it is apparently justified to compare a current president of the US with Stalin and Hitler, or to simply murder people with car bombs or to blow up yourself.

In other words, in the context of our present subject, Islamic philosophy, there is all reason to question the rationality of belief.

Humans, claimed Aristotle, are rational animals. However, recent psychological studies purport to show that people systematically deviate from canons of logic, probability theory, decision theory and statistics.

Reasoning is central to the acquisition and improvement of our beliefs. If a belief is recognized as sustained through defective reasoning, it is not rational to maintain the belief.

If we look at our world of today and see things happen which are beyond reason, can we judge them by making reason the standard, or transcends belief reason?

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you…^_^

[13:21] Roo: who are you thanking?

[13:21] Zanicia: Bravo Prof.

[13:21] Roo: have you finished already?

[13:21] Roo: オゥ☆ ohhh

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: now its discussion time

[13:21] herman Bergson: You for your attention and presence :-))

[13:21] Roo: ah

[13:21] Zanicia: yes

[13:21] Roo: your welcome.

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: well islam is for once the most violent of all religions

[13:22] herman Bergson: It always has been Bejiita

[13:22] Areyn Laurasia: It's not the fault of any religion but rather the interpretations of such by flawed reasoning..

[13:22] oola Neruda: yes

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: they take for granted its ok to murder the ones different thinking and even marry away small children in some cases

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: totally insane i d say

[13:22] Zanicia: true

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: but i think the original quran is not saying that

[13:22] oola Neruda: is it the religion or the people who want power etc... USING it as the excuse for what they call others to do

[13:23] oola Neruda: divine right of kings

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: but some extreme people have modified it

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: its not reason i d say to go by those rules

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that they use but they seem to believe that

[13:24] herman Bergson: My point today is more the observation that we make reason  or say rationality to a standard to judge human behavior in an ethical sense

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: then the wuestion is what is the true reason

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: question

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: theirs is not

[13:25] herman Bergson: The Declaration odf Human Rights is a product of reaon....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes that i call true reason

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and a will to make peace with each other

[13:25] herman Bergson: and we declare what it states as RIGHTS....based on reason...or?

[13:25] Roo: and also the judicial system is a product of reasoning also

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: not blowing each other up all you can with jihad or similar things

[13:26] herman Bergson: Indeed Roo

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: peace and happiness is a basic drive for people naturally thats why id say this must be true reason

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: one of the things

[13:26] herman Bergson: And here we have Islamic Philosophy.....intertwined with Quran...with beliefs

[13:27] oola Neruda: reason and morality are not necessarily the same thing

[13:27] herman Bergson: they aren’t oola, no

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: also science is reason because it seeks the real truth and no supernatural frabbajabba

[13:27] herman Bergson: it is reason that defines morality....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: how things REALLY work

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: therfore science = reason as well

[13:27] Areyn Laurasia: what if.. science is tied to religion in the end?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well Areyn I was just thinking about that....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: but then its no real science because science is to truly have seen how it is

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just take this....

[13:28] oola Neruda: reason should be a-moral

[13:28] Areyn Laurasia: science is not all solid facts.. the deeper you go, the more unknowns there are

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: if i can really see a god, or santa clause then if isn’t it scientifically proved that they exist

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts but not before that

[13:28] herman Bergson: one of the fundamental philosophical questions is the relation between knowledge and belief

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and so far i’ve never seen any of these things

[13:29] herman Bergson: Knowledge and belief....

[13:29] herman Bergson: But take reason and our assumption that is our faculty to define life....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: complex it is for sure

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: but very interesting

[13:29] herman Bergson: this is in fact a belief...

[13:30] oola Neruda: good point, Herman

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:30] herman Bergson: and science..its axioms are based on beliefs...and tested every day

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yet we call science knowledge.....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed, we for ex know how atoms are made up because we have studied and seen that it really is this way

[13:31] herman Bergson: which implies the assumption of certainty....matter of fact...never changing....stable....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: therefor we know most about how the world works but not all, at least not yet

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: some is still hiding

[13:31] oola Neruda: bu it isn't

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes this assumption is based on belief....for instance the belief that all began with the Big Bang...

[13:31] oola Neruda: but it isn't ... stable

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: the big bang theory is not nailed 100 %

[13:32] oola Neruda: schroedinger's cat

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: just a theory

[13:32] herman Bergson: In other words....

[13:32] herman Bergson: knowledge is relative....

[13:32] herman Bergson: not absolute...

[13:32] Zanicia: nailed? It is hopelessly flawed!

[13:33] herman Bergson: That brings us back to religious belief and its claims that it is knowledge

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but you must at least see some sign of a thing before you can say it is really there

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: not like with gods, how many people have actually sensed the presence of one

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: not many i thing even of the believing group

[13:33] oola Neruda: so much theory is what they see in equations....and it comes out as knowledge

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: or even more seen one

[13:34] Merlin: yes I do not entirely agree with that statement the knowledge is only relative

[13:34] herman Bergson: And there we are Bejiita....who draws the line between what is and what is not?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: its tricky indeed but i want to see a thing for myself and not accept it just because some book says it without more detailed fact around it

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: I do not see electricity but I know with it's absence my computer would not work.

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: can I deny it's existence?

[13:35] herman Bergson: No Aryen....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and if u stink the finger in an outlet u get a nasty shock

[13:35] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:35] Zanicia: Bravo Areyn

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: so its really existing

[13:35] herman Bergson: and it isnt necessary either....

[13:35] Merlin: there are other ways of seeing something than just visually

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: so electricity is fact, no magical force

[13:36] herman Bergson: only when you claim that the eyes and ears are the only sources of information then electricity does not exist....

[13:36] herman Bergson: but we have indirect means of observation AND  DEDUCTIVE reasoning here

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: also we know how electricity works, that it is because electrons can move between metal atoms

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and the principle of induction that make generators possible

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: all this we know

[13:37] herman Bergson: It is like higgs particles....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: its fact, not magic

[13:37] herman Bergson: you can not see them....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] herman Bergson: but based on what you can see you can logically deduce that this or that would react on this or that which only can be the case if....and so on

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: was just a theory but now they are at least almost sure it is there however cern NEVER says something is really there until they have a sigma 5 on it which is 99.999999999999% certainity

[13:38] herman Bergson: I have no problem with that

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: same with dark matter

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: also just a theory so far

[13:39] herman Bergson: my "problem" with Islamic philosophy is caused by what I see happening in teh Islamic world....

[13:39] herman Bergson: But  not in the entire Islamic world tobegin with

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed, its going all out of control, more violent then ever

[13:40] herman Bergson: and the apparent lack of reason sometimes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: why is that?

[13:40] Roo: becasue people have different morals

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: i think its cause they fear they will loose their power and get desperate

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: trying to eliminate the opposers

[13:40] herman Bergson: So...in the next lectures I'll look into the history of that world....to find an answer to the current situation

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: would that violence be there without external instigation?

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Areyn......

[13:41] Merlin: There are often crimes in UK which we discover were from ethnic minorities

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: well before they went into iraq it was better then it is now

[13:41] Merlin: Muslims typically

[13:41] Merlin: such as child abuse cases

[13:41] herman Bergson: Same here Merlin.....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: same in egypt, the arabic spring turned into a tragedy

[13:41] Merlin: But nobody is allowed to make this observation

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: making it worse and not better

[13:41] herman Bergson: But it has nothing to do with being muslim.....

[13:41] Merlin: that they are mostly muslims who do this

[13:42] herman Bergson: that is about cultural integration....

[13:42] Merlin: It is F-ing illegal to speak out

[13:42] Merlin: Tony Blair introduced this

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: no but same principle, as long its not theated its calm but when the mighty ones fear their beliefs and power is under a threat hell break loose

[13:42] Merlin: Damn him

[13:43] Gemma Allen: there is a short distance between being upset by crime and associating it with minorities

[13:43] herman Bergson: We have a politician here who publicly asked "Do you want more or less Morrocans in The Hague?"

[13:43] Gemma Allen: nto a good idea

[13:43] herman Bergson: and the crowd yelled "Less..less.less....!!!"

[13:43] Merlin: hehe

[13:43] herman Bergson: Utmost stupidity...

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: its so complex and so hard to get all details about what is really happening in the world now but ive seen so many tragic things in the news ect

[13:43] Roo: thats not funny really.

[13:44] Gemma Allen: right

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: A lot of people filled a complaint at the Court against this person at the moment....

[13:44] Zanicia: Damn good idea if you ask me.....in my country we are not asked abd are becoming completely overrun with foreigners

[13:44] Areyn Laurasia: who wouldn't want to stay in their own country if they can?

[13:44] Gemma Allen: oh dear this is deteriorating

[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed Areyn....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:45] Roo: it did along time ago Gemma

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: they flee for a reason

[13:45] herman Bergson: But I think we are drifting away from our topic of today now :-))

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: that bombs rain on them

[13:45] Gemma Allen: i mean the discussion here

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and other awful things

[13:45] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: back to reason :)

[13:45] Roo: yes i agree Gemma

[13:45] herman Bergson: YEs....plz

[13:46] herman Bergson: But I agree...this issue touches on many questions....

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: very many

[13:46] herman Bergson: But I'll continue in the enxt lectures with the historical dievelopment of how it ended up like it is now....

[13:46] Gemma Allen: who aare the muslim philosophers ??? are then teh imams?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: id say this is one of the most complex subjects we have dealt with so far

[13:47] herman Bergson: No historically they arent Gemma

[13:47] Gemma Allen: or are there actual philosophers within the religion

[13:47] Gemma Allen: or outside of it

[13:47] Zanicia: outside certainly

[13:47] herman Bergson: That is what we have to find out.....

[13:47] oola Neruda: there are poets in that culture that i consider philosophers too

[13:47] Gemma Allen: ok'

[13:47] oola Neruda: but not in the same way as western philosophy

[13:48] herman Bergson: the point is that Arabic philosophy has leaned heavily on Greek philosophy around 650 - 900 CE...

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aaa i see

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm think it sounds familiar that they have some connection far back indeed

[13:48] herman Bergson: on the other hand there was the political development motivated by Mohammed and hsi Quran...

[13:49] herman Bergson: ti is not the same story...but so closely involved with each other...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:49] herman Bergson: I hope we'll discover what the difference is between Arabic philosophy and the other half....

[13:50] herman Bergson: what is it...Quran....muslim culture....?

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: indeed and who was really this mohammed

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: is he a god or what is he really?

[13:50] oola Neruda: we can ask that same question of Christianity... is it the culture or the bible

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: never understood that

[13:50] herman Bergson: Just a man Bejiita...

[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: definitely not a god :)

[13:50] oola Neruda: he was a prophet

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: he was some prophet as i get it

[13:51] Gemma Allen: nono

[13:51] Merlin: you could say that about Jesus too

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: its a bit like buddhism, is also a real person and no god

[13:51] Merlin: in the case of Jesus it is even more vague

[13:51] Gemma Allen: well the three religions all eminate from the same background

[13:51] Merlin: Abraham

[13:51] Gemma Allen: abraham is considered the father of the three

[13:51] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: trus

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:51] Merlin: Abey babey

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: there we have a connection

[13:51] herman Bergson: There is little known about the historical Jesus person.....but he has lived...and was killed by the romans for political reasons....maybe the only facts we have

[13:52] herman Bergson: With Muhammed it is a different story...

[13:52] herman Bergson: There is more documented about his historical existence

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: have jesus even existed for real and also if he did was he really born at year 0?

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: and who was he then and what was it that made him the son of god?

[13:52] Merlin: oh we havent time to get into this

[13:53] herman Bergson: You may assume that the Jesus person indeed really has existed

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: this must have come from something that really happened

[13:53] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:53] Gemma Allen: he has been documented in historical writings outside the bible

[13:53] herman Bergson: But again....let's stick to Islamic philosophy now :-)

[13:53] Gemma Allen: and the year is within 4

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:53] Gemma Allen: true

[13:53] Merlin: yes please Herman

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cant just have been a myth someone just wrote down ike a book author

[13:53] Gemma Allen: no bejita

[13:54] herman Bergson: I think it is best to await the next lecture to get on the right track again :-))

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ok good idea

[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: agreed :)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ty

[13:54] herman Bergson: So, thank you all for your participation....

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:54] Gemma Allen: will try to be on time tuesday

[13:54] Zanicia: Thank you Herman

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: wow this was great

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:54] herman Bergson: Have a nice weekend you all ^_^

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ot more to think about

[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for the insight. Lovely weekend to you too

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu soon