526: Averroës

There is a resemblance between the Western Middle Ages and Islamic philosophy since 632 CE, a year before the death of Muhammad.

There was a lot of science  like mathematics. medicine astronomy, but most of all metaphysics, to which these sciences had to conform,

for all this metaphysics was focused on theological issues. What the Arab philosophers did was what the Scholastic catholic theologians did thereafter:

reconciling general and scientific knowledge with theological ideas and not the other way around. It happened to Galileo Galilei:

In 1616, an Inquisitorial commission unanimously declared heliocentrism to be "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture."

There is no difference here with the Arabic world and the position of science and philosophy. Like in Europe, where Aristotle taught the basics of scientific thinking and natural science, Plato’s Ideas saved the theologians.

The last great Arabic thinker in this endless debate was Ibn Roshd, better known to us as Averroës (1126 - 1178).

But like Avicenna and a number of other islamic philosophers, Averroës wasn’t primarily a philosopher, but an orthodox muslim.

Like others he was an all-round scholar, judge, astronomer, physician of the calif, believer in the Quran and thinker.

Averroës not only rejected the idea, but plainly denied that the ratio and belief eventually could be in accordance with each other.

The real source of all problems between philosophers and theologians lay in the fact, that they failed to appreciate that ratio and belief played on different levels.

What was true from a religious point of view, was completely unsuited for philosophical considerations.Not the Quran was the problem, but the way of debating.

Thence Averroes divided human understanding into three classes, according to the different types of man.

At the bottom of the ladder you find the simple and unenlightened people for whom belief and the clear voice of authority is enough.

Halfway the ladder you find the dialectic people, who demand probability arguments to become convinced. Something like “Look how complex this little insect is built…..can’t be just coincidence….quite probable it is the design of a Creator.”

Finally, at the top of the ladder, there are the people who demand inferences that show absolute certainty of proof. Only for such people the use of philosophy is meant.

The Quran, the divine revelation, was meant for all three groups, but only those who had reached the highest level of wisdom, were able to set aside the rules of the simple belief when debated about the Truth.

Averroës might be called the last great Islamic thinker. After him the debate fell silent. His “Aristotle” was embraced by the catholic Scholastics like Albertus Magnus and Thomas Aquino.

But the Arab world went down into continuous fighting between all kinds of factions, a continuous battle with the Turks and the Byzantine Empire, a continuous battle against christians.

You could say that since 632 CE after a short period of philosophical creativity between 950 and 1258, the debate in the Arabic world never stopped: the debate on how to make the ratio bend for the ideas of the Quran.

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] herman Bergson: .

[13:24] Daruma BoaDaruma Boa claps

[13:24] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:24] Gemma Allen: that is the problem still trying to fit it

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: well they refuse to let ratio win over belief i guess

[13:25] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:25] Daruma Boa: thats the problem. religions battle witch is the best

[13:25] herman Bergson: In Europe 1650 and after the empiricists took over from the theologians and real science became possible

[13:25] Daruma Boa: but i mean there can not be find an answer

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: only ratio and science can find true proofs

[13:26] Daruma Boa: and a battle is NO answer.-

[13:26] herman Bergson: the problem is an epistemological one Daruma.....

[13:26] Areyn Laurasia: for all that wisdom.. why war?

[13:26] Daruma Boa: well religion has nothing to do with profs

[13:26] Daruma Boa: its about believing

[13:26] Daruma Boa: science is proofing

[13:26] herman Bergson: science is open to criticism....falsification because wecan test the way knowledge was acquired...

[13:27] herman Bergson: but when you base your axioms on "revelation" no criticism is possible

[13:27] herman Bergson: nor development because all becomes 100% dogmatic

[13:27] Areyn Laurasia: yet a lot of scientific discoveries were made by accident

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: no cause people just say god exist and thats it without ever have seen anything of god

[13:27] herman Bergson: While in our world Einstein was able to improve on Newton's theories

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: still they conclude he did everything

[13:28] herman Bergson: I wont do it ...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: so you cant apply proofing on religion indeed

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: 2 different things

[13:28] herman Bergson: but you cold make a project on the attempts to proof the exitence of god

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: That bejiita was in fact the basic assumption of Averroes....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:29] herman Bergson: logical proof didn’t apply to revelations....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm no they seem incompatible to me sort of

[13:29] herman Bergson: And this is still the case in this world...

[13:30] herman Bergson: So we are stuck with all those individuals who claim this special knowledge by revelation.....and all others how are willing to believe then....

[13:30] herman Bergson: If I only knew why!

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: and those are the majority?

[13:31] Gemma Allen: i think so

[13:31] Gemma Allen: in many places

[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: we're so in trouble

[13:31] herman Bergson: If you look globally Aryn....I think so yes

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: and also what are really these so called revelations, dreams, hallucinations or is there really something

[13:32] herman Bergson: But if you look at the rea power globally....then I think no...then Capital is the new god

[13:32] herman Bergson: and religion

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: compare with seeing ghosts, many have claimed but no one have managed to proove them and i’ve never seen one

[13:32] Daruma Boa: most ppl have no believe anymore. only believing in capitalism. true herman

[13:32] Daruma Boa: believe

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the problem Bejiita.....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: When i see a ghost i believe

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and am sure i really see a ghost and not dream for ex

[13:33] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...wont work....

[13:33] Daruma Boa: bejita thats a big issue.

[13:33] Gemma Allen: welllll

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: guess more complex then that

[13:33] Daruma Boa: we humans are not able to see a lot.

[13:33] Daruma Boa: a lot what science has already proofed

[13:33] herman Bergson: When you tell your neighbor he will look at you with that strange look and say....Sure Bejiita...you have seen a ghost ^_^

[13:33] Daruma Boa: so....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] Daruma Boa: e.g. u cant see micro organism

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: you can with a microscope

[13:34] herman Bergson: we can with a microscope Daruma

[13:35] Daruma Boa: but not in your daily life

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: so we don't see them with our naked eyes but we can invent tools to help us understand more

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: no, but everyone have seen microscopy pics in books at least in school so they know they are there

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: bacteria ect

[13:35] herman Bergson: Thanks heave no....:-)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and probably looked at them on microscope themselves

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i have

[13:36] herman Bergson: just suppose you could see al bacteria and virusses around which we now only see under a microscope....!

[13:36] Daruma Boa: yes i know what u mean

[13:36] herman Bergson: It is not the microcosmos that bothers us....we even can "see" higgs particles...

[13:36] herman Bergson: it is the macrocosmos.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: that kept the Arab philosophers busy too.....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:37] Daruma Boa: but the more we get to know, the more we have questions.

[13:37] herman Bergson: the attempt to understand why the world is as it is

[13:37] Daruma Boa: dunno which scientist this said

[13:37] herman Bergson: all scientist do say that ^_^

[13:37] Daruma Boa: the deeper u go you see things, which we even can not imagine

[13:37] Daruma Boa: now

[13:37] Areyn Laurasia: the more we learn, the less we realize we know? something like that?

[13:38] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:38] herman Bergson: Socrates already said "I know that I don't know"

[13:38] Daruma Boa: so i guess in 10 years we laugh about "ghost2;-)

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: I'm sure we have seen ghosts... in movies

[13:39] Gemma Allen: well people hve not laughed in over the centuries so far

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: WHO DO YOU CALL? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!

[13:39] Gemma Allen: they continue to be with us

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:39] herman Bergson: oh yes....and the funny thing is...we call them horror movies.....

[13:39] Daruma Boa: ;-)

[13:39] Areyn Laurasia: so they exist in a way... the way we create them

[13:39] Daruma Boa: they are all among us!

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: who has invented the idea that ghosts are bad by definition?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Like aliens too...99%  are monsters

[13:39] Daruma Boa: everyone has its own ghost to carry in life

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: i d love to have some ghosts around as long they are nice

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: good company ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: We are silly beings....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: when we fall from the stairs we blame it on an evil spirit....

[13:41] herman Bergson: when we just managed to prevent it we give credit to our guardian angel :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: the brain invents a story for everything

[13:41] Daruma Boa: and when u know how it works, u can use it.

[13:41] Daruma Boa: we humans all need pictures.

[13:42] Daruma Boa: or symbols

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:42] Daruma Boa: our brain is a tool

[13:42] Daruma Boa: u must know to use it

[13:42] herman Bergson: our brain is to some extend a fairytale machine :-)

[13:42] Daruma Boa: for some

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah i guess so ㋡

[13:42] herman Bergson: and we love to believe the stories

[13:42] Gemma Allen: of course

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: sometimes it goes wrong though

[13:43] Daruma Boa: when we believe we can reach a lot

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: and thats where u get these horrible religion wars ect

[13:43] Daruma Boa: thats the prob of humans. they do not believe in themselves

[13:43] herman Bergson: not yet Daruma.....that is the long way to go in evolution of the brain I think

[13:43] Daruma Boa: yes its work for everyone on its own

[13:44] Daruma Boa: a everyday work

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...I am done with Islamic philosophy.....

[13:44] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:44] Daruma Boa: they also^^

[13:44] Areyn Laurasia: where do we go next? :)

[13:44] Gemma Allen: what next

[13:44] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:44] herman Bergson: It made me understand a lot of what is still kicking and alive in that culture...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: have been really interesting

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: an eye opener for sure

[13:45] herman Bergson: The most important observation might be that they don’t fight as individuals against ...the other or the state.....

[13:45] Daruma Boa: true

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:46] herman Bergson: they fight as groups of believers agains others hwo are wrong or disbelievers....

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: its death ot all non believers or deah to those with a different belief then ours

[13:46] herman Bergson: and that has been the case since 632 and has untill today never changed....

[13:46] herman Bergson: you see it happen in Syria.....

[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: maybe the Mahdi will come along

[13:47] herman Bergson: you have  the Allawites ..the government.....and a plethora of all kinds of religious groups fighting this government and even eachother....

[13:47] herman Bergson: They are destryoing that country for more than two years now already......!

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aaaw yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: Just because of that JIHAD....

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: awful development

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: so meaningless

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes utterly meaningless....Bejiita

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm

[13:49] herman Bergson: and one big stalemate for no one knows who is fighting who anymore and to what purpose...

[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: why isn't the western world stepping in? why have the gap so that all these other religious groups utilize it?

[13:49] herman Bergson: just addicted to the fighting and becoming a martyr!

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: oil maybee

[13:49] herman Bergson: That Aryen, is the big problem.....

[13:50] herman Bergson: the US did it in Iraq....and failed.....

[13:50] Gemma Allen: stupid move

[13:50] herman Bergson: because th eUS sees the individual against the doctator....

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: just made it much worse

[13:50] herman Bergson: but the Iraqis only see the sunnites against the shiites as the real war

[13:51] herman Bergson: there are religious factions fighting each other....that is no furtile soil for democracy as we know it....

[13:52] herman Bergson: Because all kinds of Western ideas are not conform the Quran!

[13:52] herman Bergson: Equal rights?.....For women???? The very thought of it ....!

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: if they could they wuld probably blow the entire planet up to cosmic dust cause then EVERYONE including non or dofferent believers will see the REAL god

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: when all is dead

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: scary thought

[13:53] herman Bergson: Don’t think so Bejiita.....

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: I have to go...thank you Herman it was a real nice class again

[13:53] Gemma Allen: no way

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ok have to go too

[13:53] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cause they believe they come to god including the others they kill when they blow themselves up

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: good night

[13:53] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:53] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes...let's do some fun stuff....

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed!

[13:53] herman Bergson: :-))

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all ㋡

[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: not all muslims are like that, Bejiita :)

[13:54] Daruma Boa: will leave also

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: no but the most extreme are

[13:54] herman Bergson: Indeed Areyn, the majority isn’t…..!

[13:54] Daruma Boa: have a nice time^^^

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: thats one good thing at least

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu on tuesday all

[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: better see more of the world while it's still around :)

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes

[13:55] herman Bergson: But you only need one idiot to blow up a market place

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: i guess so

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: and thats 1 to many

[13:55] herman Bergson: unfortunately.....

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday ㋡

525: Avicenna

The more you study Islamic philosophers, the more you begin to wonder, on what are these philosophers spending their time and why?

I should not say this, of course, but with the knowledge we have today it was such a waste of time and energy in my opinion.

And yet such an judgmental observation doesn’t satisfy me really, for the questions those people were thinking about and were fighting each other for, still exist today to some extend.

If there is one question which has puzzled mankind from day one then it is the question “What to do with religion?” In our world there always have been believers and non believers.

The reason for this is simple. You pray to a god and bring sacrifices to him or her and ask for help. The result is nothing, nada. You come up with all kinds of explanations, 

while the non believer say “I told you, that it won’t gonna rain when you perform all kinds of rituals. You should look at the sky, the clouds, the direction of the wind”.

That is something Aristotle might have said, referring to the eternal relation between cause and effect. And here we touch on the quintessence of Islamic philosophy

and on the fact that around 1000 AD this Islamic philosophy was enthusiastically embraced by the Western scholastic thinkers of the Catholic Church.

What the scholastic philosophers and Arab philosophers had in common was the problem of reconciling reason (the ratio) with religion, which for some in our time is still an issue.

For us it isn’t such a hot issue anymore, but in those days it was the prime issue among philosophers. Why would that be? 

In the Islamic world around 1000 AD religion was the dominating ideology to keep society organized under a rather totalitarian system.

So, of course, it is allowed to say “you should look at the sky, the clouds, the direction of the wind”, but to keep your head in place you had to add, that god is the cause of everything.

Ibn Sina, better know to us as Avicenna (980 - 1037) was one of the greatest in integrating Aristotelian rationality and religion.

In him you meet a philosopher who has a very clear and detailed knowledge of god. He knows exactly what god is , his properties….name it.

And then I begin to wonder. How can he formulate all such details theories? I think, I found an answer. Actually it is quite obvious. Some people today do the same. You reason backward, from the end to the beginning.

Aristotle came up with the relation between essence and existence. The essence is the abstract concept in the mind, derived from the observation of a lot of existing entities.

So you reason backward. You see the individual entities, abstract from them their essence. Then wonder “How come, that I call all these entities humans?” and then conclude that this is because this knowledge of the essence is from the Intellectus Agens…..

According to Avicenna the essences existed in three ways. In the first way it exists before it is materialized in something, in Latin….”ante rem”. It is an immaterial archetype in the mind of god.

In the second way it exists in the material things itself….in Latin..”in rebus”. There the essence is as real as in the first way.

Finally the essence can exist in our mind as an abstraction form our observations…in Latin…”post rem”, where we see them in their pure form again. That is…in relation to their first way of being.

In Avicenna’s belief there necessarily had to be a mind in which the essences existed, before we could be able to know them.

Like in causality there necessarily HAD to be a first cause, which only could be the First Mover, god. You just look around and say: this can’t be coincidental.

And as you see, for centuries the human mind likes to use backward inference as a proof for what only causes more questions, I would say .

The Discussion

.

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] herman Bergson: .

[13:20] Gemma Allen: Aristotle and all sounds very logical ... of course

[13:20] Daruma BoaDaruma Boa claps

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:20] herman Bergson: Well....Avicenna added  some Platonism to it.....

[13:20] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:20] Gemma Allen: well

[13:20] herman Bergson: For Aristotle the essences were in fact only abstractions in the mind.....

[13:21] Genji Shikibu: wouldn't that ultimately make the mind itself...God?

[13:21] herman Bergson: But Avicenna and other Arab philosophers said that they had to be Ideas in the mind of god.....which is Plato's way of thinking

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: there have to be some supernatural being that everything originated from sort of?

[13:22] herman Bergson: What do you mean Genji?

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: being

[13:22] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...that is the great intellectual mystery to me....

[13:22] Genji Shikibu: well, if god is abstract and can only be realized in the mind... then the mind must be first... and it creates the god

[13:22] herman Bergson: why comes the human mind to such a conclusion? :-)

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: cause that seems how they must have terrorized

[13:23] Gemma Allen: well most religions believe the mind is part of god so....

[13:23] herman Bergson: As long it is just the mind....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: i just say they should study more physics ㋡

[13:23] Honey  Bee: excuse me , everything in the universe is natural

[13:23] Daruma Boa: well physics have also a lot mysteries

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:24] Daruma Boa: which can not be explained

[13:24] herman Bergson: Honey, I would say...everything in the universe just IS.....

[13:24] Daruma Boa: i just read a book about it

[13:24] Honey  Bee: i dont see anything as supper natural

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: but i dont believe some big mind or being created all electrons protons and so

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that builds the entire universe up

[13:24] Daruma Boa: we humans do not know so much as we want^^

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: including us

[13:24] Areyn Laurasia: we are here to see what's possible?

[13:24] Daruma Boa: the god or big mind is in us

[13:24] Daruma Boa: but humans are too stupid to fid´nd it^^

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: i d say something like that

[13:25] Daruma Boa: find #

[13:25] Honey  Bee: i don’t think we will ever know everything about our history of creation

[13:25] Gemma Allen: they keep trying tho daaruma

[13:25] herman Bergson: Voltaire had a nice idea about it all...Dieu Horloger

[13:25] Daruma Boa: oh gemma, very less is trying to find^^

[13:25] Daruma Boa: i am afraid

[13:25] herman Bergson: Some God created the whole thing and then left it ticking...:-)

[13:25] Daruma Boa: the most watches tv...

[13:25] Gemma Allen: well science is getting closer and closer to the beginnings

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: the closest to find god we are now i d say is the LCH machine t CERN that i popularly call the god machine

[13:26] Gemma Allen: with telescopes that reach out so far

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: LHC

[13:26] Gemma Allen: and the cern thing

[13:26] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:26] herman Bergson: I dont agree Daruma...for that is begging the question......

[13:26] Daruma Boa: mh bejita i find this machine just a toy.

[13:26] Gemma Allen: oh i don’t

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: bu study the smallest bits and understand how they tie together thats as close we can come how all was created i’d say

[13:26] Gemma Allen: i think it is finding good stuff

[13:26] herman Bergson: to say that we are to stupid to find the "Big thing" behind everything already assumes the Big thing

[13:26] Areyn Laurasia: "The more philosophically simple a thing is, the more perfect it is."... back to the atom?

[13:26] Gemma Allen: that god ma hine named is misleading

[13:27] Daruma Boa: i saw a documentation about the refute of darwin

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: maybe but as said its the closest we have to find the creator if we relate t to religion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Refute Darwin even???

[13:27] Daruma Boa: yes that there are a lot of gaps in evolution

[13:27] Daruma Boa: and no one likes to explain that

[13:28] Daruma Boa: cos there are no answers

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:28] Genji Shikibu: that does not disprove it tho

[13:28] herman Bergson: but that observation doesn’t justify a thing. I would say

[13:28] Honey  Bee: life is

[13:28] Daruma Boa: we humans are afraid to see new things

[13:28] herman Bergson: those are assumptions Daruma.....

[13:28] Gemma Allen: not scientists

[13:28] Areyn Laurasia: I love to see new things :)

[13:29] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:29] Daruma Boa: no there are a lot of scientist how explain it mom

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: religious people however often totally oppose science

[13:29] Gemma Allen: as long as they don't make life more difficult

[13:29] herman Bergson: Science is nothing but finding new things....even show that Einstein was wrong if possible :-)

[13:30] Daruma Boa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH9ZTq6FAyY

[13:30] Genji Shikibu: people pick and choose which science to believe

[13:30] Daruma Boa: but its a german scientist from the munich university

[13:30] herman Bergson: what  is it Daruma? :-)

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm science however proves how stuff really work but observing it, not relate it to some strange being no one have really seen

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: some

[13:30] Genji Shikibu: they are happy to get electricity, technology or surgery without understanding it

[13:30] herman Bergson: But to get back to our Arab philosophers.....

[13:31] Daruma Boa: a refute of darwin

[13:31] Genji Shikibu: but deny other things for the same reason

[13:31] Daruma Boa: not all what darwin said is not true

[13:31] herman Bergson: What puzzles me is how they could have such extensive descriptions of god

[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: Arab philosophers who are muslims and learn from christians and teach to jew

[13:31] Daruma Boa: but well, we must be now now a bite more

[13:31] Daruma Boa: and we don’t

[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: it's a pursuit of knowledge..

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i guess so

[13:32] Genji Shikibu: the descriptions and stories are parables and poetry... to assist understanding... but they are taken as dictionary definitions

[13:32] Gemma Allen: i guess it is what they would want their god to be

[13:32] Daruma Boa: and that must us keep think

[13:32] herman Bergson: The Arabs learnt from the greek and then taught the catholics in 1000 AD

[13:32] Daruma Boa: or think in another way

[13:32] Genji Shikibu: the Koran is poetry

[13:32] herman Bergson: a lot of philosophy is too in my opinion :-))

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: true ㋡

[13:33] Genji Shikibu: poetry explains more than prose

[13:33] Gemma Allen: true

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] herman Bergson: this would lead to a discussionon the concept of "explaining" Genji.....

[13:34] Honey  Bee: yes professor Philosphy is poetry

[13:34] Genji Shikibu: do you really want to go there?

[13:34] herman Bergson: actually ^_^......no

[13:35] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:35] herman Bergson: I think now you have some idea how the debate between ratio and religion is an old old one....

[13:35] Gemma Allen: another 5 years of class

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hahha

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: only 5 years? :)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: loool

[13:35] Gemma Allen: well

[13:35] herman Bergson: and that is rather fascinating.....

[13:35] Daruma Boa: yes it is herman.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:36] Daruma Boa: they all knew 1.000 of years ago

[13:36] herman Bergson: But one thing you can conclude.....

[13:36] Daruma Boa: and wedo not know more now

[13:36] Daruma Boa: ^^

[13:36] herman Bergson: in that debate in Islamic philosophy the ratio lost the debate after 1100AD

[13:37] herman Bergson: We do know some more now Daruma....I would say.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: for example....the flue is not a punishment of the lord but just a virus for instance

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: sorry I have to go...have a goodnight all

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] Areyn Laurasia: good night Beertje

[13:37] Honey  Bee: good night

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: night beerte

[13:38] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: good night beertje

[13:38] .: Beertje :.: bye bye

[13:38] Genji Shikibu: good night beertje

[13:38] Daruma Boa: in some things yes

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: indeed sickness are caused by bacteria and virus, not your sins

[13:39] Daruma Boa: but not the main questions.

[13:39] Daruma Boa: what is life and where are we from^^

[13:39] herman Bergson: neither are earthquakes the wrath of god...but just moving tectonic plates on this globes

[13:39] Gemma Allen: that is why the class does continue... always more questions

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: haha yes

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and we don’t want this to end don’t we?

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:39] Daruma Boa: i want to know^^

[13:40] herman Bergson: "what is life and where are we from"...besides Islamic philosophy but a big question indeed

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: there is always more to know

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:40] herman Bergson: To begin with it contains an ssumption.....

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: does it matter?

[13:40] Daruma Boa: i am SO curious^^

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: many big questions remain to be answered

[13:40] herman Bergson: and that is ...Where are we FROM?"

[13:41] herman Bergson: from where....who says we are form somewhere...we are jsut here :-)

[13:41] Honey  Bee: my question is WHY?

[13:41] Daruma Boa: yes but why we are here?

[13:41] herman Bergson: the WHY question....

[13:41] Daruma Boa: we can think and no one can think^^

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: cause we are ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: ok...watch this….. :-)

[13:41] Daruma Boa: but i am sure there is a reason why humans can think^^

[13:41] Areyn Laurasia: so we can create?

[13:42] Daruma Boa: yes but what we create?

[13:42] herman Bergson: the first thing we know is that we are....

[13:42] Daruma Boa: mostly not useful things...

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: for survival.. out of necessity

[13:42] Genji Shikibu: yes... survival

[13:42] herman Bergson: the second thing we know when we look around is that we can ask ..why is that happening....

[13:42] Genji Shikibu: the rest is gravey

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: one thin we are good at is build machines to make us faster and stronger

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: cars and hydraulics for ex

[13:42] herman Bergson: but here is the catch....

[13:42] Daruma Boa: mhh bejita....

[13:42] Gemma Allen: internet for example

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and help our mind with the computer

[13:42] Daruma Boa: is that really necessary?

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: with

[13:43] herman Bergson: does it make sense to apply this question to ourselves?

[13:43] herman Bergson: why are we here?

[13:43] Daruma Boa: thats a question which everyone should ask himself

[13:43] Daruma Boa: perhaps

[13:43] Genji Shikibu: i say yes

[13:43] Honey  Bee: it might be to keep us alive , this is why we do all or most things

[13:43] Daruma Boa: no only hope keeps up alive.

[13:43] Daruma Boa: the hope that everything will be better

[13:44] herman Bergson: the question has two sides...a subjective one and an objective one....

[13:44] Daruma Boa: without that i do anything fro that^^

[13:44] herman Bergson: dont confuse them

[13:44] Daruma Boa: true herman

[13:44] Daruma Boa: lol ok^^

[13:44] Genji Shikibu: instinct keeps us alive...

[13:44] Daruma Boa: mhhh long discussion about that

[13:44] herman Bergson: that is not an answer to a why Genji, but yet a fact

[13:45] Genji Shikibu: you are right

[13:45] Honey  Bee: we must evolve and change or we will not continue to live

[13:45] Genji Shikibu: we must face Climate Change or we will not have much of a life

[13:45] herman Bergson: that "must" in your statement Honey......

[13:46] Honey  Bee: yes

[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: it's not like we really have a choice

[13:46] herman Bergson: I think we evolve indeed in a Darwinian sense....

[13:46] Daruma Boa: ah i guess we all have a choice

[13:46] Daruma Boa: i do not guess

[13:46] Honey  Bee: yes we have a choice , we change or not and have disaster like we have today

[13:46] Daruma Boa: we have it

[13:46] herman Bergson: but look at it in periods of at least 500 years....not in a single lifetime

[13:47] Areyn Laurasia: barely a blink of an eye

[13:47] Genji Shikibu: look at what in terms of 500 years

[13:47] herman Bergson: yes Honey.....we have to evolve and leave our present stupidity behind :-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: but that will take centuries :-))

[13:47] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:48] Gemma Allen: well at least we know it

[13:48] herman Bergson: but we will eventually is my expectation

[13:48] Gemma Allen: too bad we won't be here to see it

[13:48] Daruma Boa: who knows^^

[13:48] herman Bergson: maybe first 90% of the worldpopulation has to be destroyed...I dont know...but we will

[13:48] Honey  Bee: yes herman

[13:49] Gemma Allen: or find a new planet

[13:49] herman Bergson: no Gemma...as I said....a lifetime is just a drop in the ocean

[13:49] herman Bergson: but I dont mind..:-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: And when you ask me "Why are we here?"

[13:50] herman Bergson: I would answer...

[13:50] herman Bergson: I dont know but I am here because I enjoy life ^_^

[13:50] Daruma Boa: ;-)

[13:50] Honey  Bee: :)) heheh good answer professor

[13:50] Genji Shikibu: I believe each of us must find our own purpose

[13:51] herman Bergson: yes Genji....

[13:51] Gemma Allen: that makes sense

[13:51] Daruma Boa: true.and i hope we all will find it

[13:51] Genji Shikibu: actually, you taught me that

[13:51] Honey  Bee: true but humanity as a whole why where we created

[13:51] herman Bergson: My pleasure genji...

[13:52] Genji Shikibu: didn't say I liked it... just said you taught me that

[13:52] herman Bergson: why are there birds inthe sky Honey....

[13:52] Gemma Allen: ohoh

[13:52] Honey  Bee: ok because they are

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] herman Bergson: I know Genji....yet...it has a meaning

[13:52] Genji Shikibu: yes

[13:52] herman Bergson: and thus we are Honey :-)

[13:52] Areyn Laurasia: by thinking and overflowing thoughts.. to bring the next level into being... like al farabi thought?

[13:53] herman Bergson: Welll I think we got quite philosophical today :-)

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: but it's practical and very present :)

[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your good thinking....

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:53] Daruma BoaDaruma Boa claps

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all

[13:53] Honey  Bee: Thank you Professor :))

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for class..

[13:53] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:53] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thanks hermann thanx all

524: Al Farabi

Let’s listen to some words of Al Farabi (died c. 950): “The substance of the First is a substance from which every existent emanates, however it may be, whether perfect or deficient. 

But the substance of the First is also such that all the existents, when they emanate from it, are arranged in an order of rank, and that every existent gets its allotted share and rank of existence from it. 

It starts with the most perfect existent and is followed by something a little less perfect than it. (..) Inasmuch as the substance of the First is a substance from which all the existence emanate, 

... it is generous and its generosity is in its substance; and inasmuch as all the existents receive their order of rank from it, ... the First is just.”

Are you still with me? I don’t think that you’ll hear such words from a contemporary philosopher anymore and yet for some reason scholars were impressed by them in those days.

For al-Farabl, the First Cause is the summit of existence, uncaused, self-subsistent, unmoved, intrinsically perfect; even so, the lower levels of existence mirror its perfection. 

The human soul and the human body are also governed hierarchically: In the body, the heart rules and is followed by the brain, under which all other organs are subordinated. 

Likewise, human society is arranged in orders of perfection: The ruler of this excellent city stands in relation to his subjects as the First Cause stands in relation to all other existents. 

The order of existence is thus not only hierarchical but microcosmic: Each order of being is such that it mirrors a higher order and is itself reflected in a lower.

But why did they believe in such metaphysical theories then? One important reason, in my opinion, is the influence of religion and the other is Aristotle. What he had achieved was unique.

He had created order in thinking. For instance, now we call it “Set Theory” and we use Venn Diagrams, but in those days it was a impressive innovation: logic 

The basic rule is, that if  in a valid reasoning the premises were true, the conclusion is also necessarily true. Just imagine, whatever you say, you can not deny the truth of the conclusion!

And with the universal ideas (Plato) or categories (Aristotle) he had organized our observations. Everything could be classified under a general name, the genus, 

and differentiated from other things of the same genus by a specific property, so that you get a species, like man = living being with rationality; animal = living being without rationality.

Thus was the discovery of Al Farabi and as with Aristotle his logic falls into two divisions, the first of these comprising the doctrine of Ideas and Definitions and the second, the doctrine of Judgments, Inferences, and Proofs. 

Ideas have in themselves no relation to reality, that is to say, they are neither true nor false. Among 'Ideas' Al Farabi recognizes here the simplest psychological forms, that is, both the representations of individual objects arising from Sense-Perception, 

and those ideas which have been stamped upon the mind from the First Intellect, such as the Necessary, the Actual, the Possible. The real metaphysical ideas, of which we ask ourselves now: where did he get them from?

Such representations and ideas are immediately certain. A man's mind may be directed to these, and his soul made observant of them, 

but they cannot be demonstrated to him, nor can they be explained by deriving them from what is known, seeing that they are already clear in themselves, and that too with the highest degree of certitude.

In the latter it is as if you hear Descartes, who also claimed to know such clear  and certain ideas. There metaphysical explanation was then and is now clear: they come from The First Mover, The First Intellect, God.  

Such line of thinking, put into the machinery of Aristotelian logic has burdened us for centuries with all kinds of almost cosmological theories.

One of the last, who closed the door on this approach was Thomas Fludd, who in 1617 stil created the pictures behind  me, where you can see the geocentric structure of the Macrocosmos and how man is connected to the cosmos.

Such descriptions of reality you now only find but esoteric philosophies today,

Thank you.... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:31] herman Bergson: You endured it quite well, I must say :-))

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: hmm..may I ask..were is the woman in this?...you are only talking about man...

[13:32] herman Bergson: hmmm...you fell asleep ^_^

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: there's nothing to endure

[13:32] herman Bergson: Beertje...

[13:32] herman Bergson: The first project ever I did was about 100 philosophers

[13:33] herman Bergson: among them were TWO women!

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: and?...

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: 98 men

[13:33] herman Bergson: So my next project was about woman philosophers

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: a short project?

[13:34] herman Bergson: I had found 35 women through the ages :-)

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: but all those philosophers talk about man..even the picture in the circle is a man..as far as I can see....

[13:34] Areyn Laurasia: yet we outnumber attendance in the class 3:1

[13:35] herman Bergson: uhuh...in the other one it is a woman :-)

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: perhaps it's more symbolic.. like woman is mother earth.. and nature

[13:35] herman Bergson: and a second problem is that women in Arabaic culture do not count that much

[13:36] herman Bergson: Don’t blame me for that :-)

[13:38] .: Beertje :.: i can't discus this lecture yet..it's far beyond my head...sorry

[13:38] herman Bergson: What I don’t feel is what they must have feelt in those days........

[13:38] herman Bergson: They were franticly translating the works of Aristotle and Plato in those days.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: I think it must have felt the same as for us a new book of our favorite author

[13:39] Areyn Laurasia: Seems they were more open to the free flow and sharing of knowledge.

[13:39] herman Bergson: and besides that.....if a book was complete...how many copies were there....?

[13:40] herman Bergson: this was of course only an issue of the ruling class

[13:40] herman Bergson: The calif financed the translations

[13:40] herman Bergson: Maybe...the more knowledge the more power..?

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: most translations are not very secure

[13:41] Qwark Allen: i`ll say , the less the population know, the easier to control it

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: maybe they wrote what the kalief would hear or read?

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: still today we say that knowledge is power

[13:41] herman Bergson: no Beertje.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: They had a deep respect for the greek philosophers, especially Aristotle...

[13:42] herman Bergson: I really wonder how it was in those days......

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: The world today could use more of the same openness from those days.

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: we need a time machine

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: but there are always words that can't be translated...look in our own language..."gezelligheid"..it doesn't exist in any other language

[13:43] herman Bergson: Was there someone waiting impatiently for the translation of the next page for instance?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Of course they ran into such difficulties Beertje...they are also documented

[13:44] herman Bergson: also

[13:44] herman Bergson: Same happened with the Jesuits in China....

[13:44] herman Bergson: Chinese had no word for God in the monotheistic catholic sense...

[13:45] herman Bergson: Bu the works of Aristotle are rather technical....

[13:45] herman Bergson: on reasoning, classification, definition.....

[13:47] Qwark Allen: would be very abstract the meaning of God to the chinese

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: could the population ..the common man and woman..read the book?

[13:47] herman Bergson: no, I don’t think so.....

[13:48] herman Bergson: In India education was accessible for everybody who showed intelligence.....

[13:48] Qwark Allen: in those days education was not for the comon population

[13:48] herman Bergson: Bu tint the Arabic world.....?

[13:48] herman Bergson: I don’t know...

[13:48] herman Bergson: and not for women ....

[13:48] Qwark Allen: ahahaha true

[13:49] Qwark Allen: should be much worst then now for sure

[13:49] Qwark Allen: maybe in the monasteries

[13:49] herman Bergson: Which was the same in Europe for cnturies too btw :-)

[13:49] Qwark Allen: yes

[13:49] Qwark Allen: darn dark ages

[13:50] herman Bergson: From an intellectual point of view they werent dark at all

[13:50] Qwark Allen: they were to the mass population

[13:50] herman Bergson: scholarship and education were at a high standard....

[13:50] Qwark Allen: for the rich

[13:50] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:50] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: yes for the happy few

[13:51] herman Bergson: yes and those knights were peasants :-)

[13:51] Qwark Allen: ehehh

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well around 1700 there were only a handful of real scientific minds in Europe.....

[13:51] Areyn Laurasia: How many philosophers through the ages have an interest in science as well?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...started with Pythagoras and Archimede

[13:52] .: Beertje :.: and how many arabic philosophers?

[13:52] herman Bergson: then the real "scientist” were the alchemists

[13:52] herman Bergson: all of them Beertje....

[13:53] herman Bergson: they were specialized in astronomy mathematics medicine......that was common practice

[13:53] herman Bergson: that is the big historical issue....

[13:54] herman Bergson: till 1100 they were the greatest mathematicians present on earth....

[13:54] herman Bergson: all their wisdom reached Europe through Spain....

[13:54] herman Bergson: and after 1200 all was gone....

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: they were polymaths

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy....

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: why was it gone after 1200?

[13:54] Qwark Allen: in a way they are still in the dark ages

[13:54] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:54] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:54] herman Bergson: But is disappeared into the desert

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: what happend?

[13:55] herman Bergson: I really don’t know what caused this development

[13:55] Qwark Allen: come to my mind the same fate of karl marx ideas

[13:55] Areyn Laurasia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasids

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: religious fanatics probably?

[13:55] herman Bergson: The  only explanation I can think of that they just went down fighting their religious wors

[13:56] Qwark Allen: think... the less the population know, the easier to control it

[13:56] .: Beertje :.: yes Qwark,,that was in Europe in the last century too

[13:57] herman Bergson: Abbasids.....isnt that the period of religious wars..fitnas or something like that?

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: in spain the muslims must have been still very tolerant

[13:57] Qwark Allen: they kept the religion part to control the population, and reduced the access to knowledge to everyone

[13:57] .: Beertje :.: yes

[13:57] .: Beertje :.: true

[13:57] Qwark Allen: if you look in the recent past

[13:57] Qwark Allen: you have karl marx

[13:57] Areyn Laurasia: No idea.. but I thought it was a time of great growth and knowledge until 1258 when the the Abbasid caliphate got broken up.

[13:58] herman Bergson: yes...that was it Areyn.....

[13:58] Qwark Allen: still think that its much worst to the arabians

[13:58] Qwark Allen: its like a milenia under this totalitarian system

[13:59] herman Bergson: I think  that the imams have taken over since 1258....and stayed in power since then

[13:59] Areyn Laurasia: They were doing better then.. while the East-West schism happened in 1054..

[13:59] herman Bergson: which meant total stagnation

[13:59] Qwark Allen: yes herman, terrible

[14:00] herman Bergson: Like I said in a previous lecture......

[14:00] herman Bergson: Arabs aren’t fighting each other individually like we do....

[14:00] Areyn Laurasia: have a read at the wiki, Qwark :) I was enlightened.

[14:01] herman Bergson: they fight as one group of believers agains another group which they see as non believers

[14:01] herman Bergson: since 640 they have been fighting religious wars among each other

[14:02] herman Bergson: and in Syria today they still do

[14:02] .: Beertje :.: is there nobody that thinks.,.what are we doing???

[14:02] herman Bergson: like in other parts where tribal and religous groups coincide

[14:03] herman Bergson: no Beertje, that is not how masses operate....

[14:03] Lizzy Pleides: they think they get to heaven directly when they die for their ideals

[14:03] herman Bergson: even in a group...when one asks...he man what are we doing, he might be shot imediately  as a non believer

[14:03] Areyn Laurasia: How's that, Beertje?

[14:04] .: Beertje :.: how is what Areyn?

[14:04] Areyn Laurasia: The questions about what are we doing?

[14:04] herman Bergson: we are not so much different......

[14:04] herman Bergson: Who has the guts in a group to question authority?

[14:05] .: Beertje :.: uhmm..i don't know what you mean

[14:05] Qwark Allen: eheheh

[14:05] Areyn Laurasia: What are we doing in the class now or in general? I was trying to understand the context.

[14:05] herman Bergson: Look at the PVV fractie :-)

[14:05] .: Beertje :.: ja...

[14:05] .: Beertje :.: treurig

[14:06] herman Bergson: We are looking at the history of Arabic philosphy Areyn

[14:06] .: Beertje :.: [14:02] Beertje Beaumont: is there nobody that thinks.,.what are we doing???..I ment ..those people in Arabia...

[14:06] Lizzy Pleides: could you explain that please? PVV fractie?

[14:06] herman Bergson: and at this moment in particular at the great influence of Greek philosophy on Arabic philosophy.....

[14:07] Areyn Laurasia: yes, I was refering to Beertje's question :)

[14:07] herman Bergson: PVV is a right wing party....fraktie is a dutch word...for the group im parlement...

[14:08] Lizzy Pleides: Fraktion in german

[14:08] Qwark Allen: omg, i have to go

[14:08] herman Bergson: Google translates it as Parlementairy group

[14:08] Qwark Allen: was really nice this class herman!!!

[14:08] .: Beertje :.: bye Qwark:)

[14:08] Areyn Laurasia: bye Qwark

[14:08] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[14:08] Qwark Allen: for now

[14:09] herman Bergson: Ye sindeed it is geting late!!!!!1

[14:09] Lizzy Pleides: TC Qwark

[14:09] Qwark Allen: 10 minutes past

[14:09] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[14:09] Qwark Allen: lol

[14:09] .: Beertje :.: I have to go too...it's late....thank you Herman for this wonderfull lecture

[14:09] Qwark Allen: we got distracted with the discussion

[14:09] Qwark Allen: which is a good sign

[14:09] Qwark Allen: ^^

[14:09] Areyn Laurasia: wonders now what PVV has to do with arabic philosophy :)

[14:09] herman Bergson: ok....emergency Class Dismissed :-)

[14:10] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[14:10] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[14:10] Qwark Allen: lol

[14:10] .: Beertje :.: Goodnight and sweet dreams about any 'fraktie'

[14:10] Lizzy Pleides: thank you herman, byeeee

[14:10] herman Bergson: I'd rather not

[14:10] Areyn Laurasia: Happy Easter for those who celebrate and happy chocolate weekend to the rest :)

[14:10] .: Beertje :.: lol

[14:11] Areyn Laurasia: good night :)

[14:11] herman Bergson: Good night Areyn :-))