534: The New Project Kick Off

Welcome to you all…nice to see you again. I hope, that you enjoyed our summer break as much as I did. But leisure time is over….

A new project with the title “Why Science is Right”. A title can be telling and thence you may conclude, that I already take a stand from the very beginning.

There you are right and I challenge the rest of the world to question my point. Ok, you are smiling now….those are big words.

This project is meant to investigate, whether these are big words indeed or not. What is really science? How should we look at science? How relates science to reality? Is science describing THE reality? What position does science take in our society?

Tons of questions, that can keep us busy. But I had a particular reason to choose this subject at this moment. And here I mean, that it is the moment after the project on non Western philosophies.

The more we delved into this topic, the more emphatically became for me one question: Why did it only occur in Europe…. the development of science?

At least to me - and you may have a different opinion - it is a clear fact, that our world is dominated and shaped by the science and technology  which has developed in Europe since 1650.

And that's my great amazement. None of the non Western philosophies have seen the same development as we have seen since Descartes.

They all eventually focused on the moral aspects of human life. Take Chinese philosophy… it never got any further than confucianism or taoism or buddhism.

And here you already can jump me…. What do you mean by “FURTHER?” Isn’t that an expression of that ethnocentric, complacent, typical Western attitude, which imagines that Western culture did it so much better than other cultures?

Such an observation already implies a tremendous amount of philosophical questions about, for instance, answering the question “What is the right or best way of existence for the homo sapiens?”

To be honest, I’ll ignore this line of reasoning. For one thing, because it would lead to a completely different project and for another thing, because I take the stand that science IS right. And I want to show you in this project, what I mean by that.

It doesn’t mean at all that through history other non Western cultures have been pretty dumb at the end. On the contrary! The Chinese developed a lot of knowledge in astronomy, medicine. They even invented gunpowder and used it for fireworks and warfare.

But the main emphasis in their philosophy seemed to have been on personal and social control as the most important thing to think about.

An even more puzzling observation is, that the Arabic world long before Europe was that such a level, was master in astronomy and mathematics. A lot of that knowledge has come to Europe around 1100 and later.

In the meantime the Arabic world was well aware of the basics of a scientific approach of reality. Aristotle’s writings were well known and even came through the Arab route to Europe.

However, the Arabic world became the Islamic world, which means that since 632 A.D. they have fought about the question who was the true successor of Mohammed and who gives the right interpretation of the Q’uran.

They seem to be still fighting about those questions over there and even willing to literally cut your throat, if you happen to belong to a group that upholds the wrong interpretation of the Q’uran or worse, are not a believer at all.

By the fifth century B.C.E. great social change was taking place in India and a period of intense intellectual activity came into being. Taxila was a center of scientific education with the first university like educational institute.

Rational inquiry into a wide range of topics was under way, including agriculture, architecture, astronomy, grammar, law, logic, mathematics, medicine, phonology, and statecraft.  

But none of the before mentioned worlds of philosophy and science developed a philosophy and science about reality, nature and existence as emerged in Europe.

Yet, this philosophy and science shaped the world as it is now and against this historical background I just what to know what is so specific about the scientific mind and its workings. I hope, that it might interest you too.

Thank you… and a happy New Year in The Philosophy Class:-))

The Discussion

[13:20] Hermine: lol

[13:20] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman

[13:20] ZANICIA Chau: thank you Herman

[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-)

[13:20] Gemma Cleanslate: goodness

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:20] LadyTrudy: hmm very interesting

[13:20] LadyTrudy: thank you Herman

[13:20] Gemma Cleanslate: looks like an interesting time

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor, this is an interesting theme again

[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: do we have to agree with you at the end??

[13:21] ZANICIA Chau: hehee

[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate:  why science was right?

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha gemma

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you....I hope to make it come true indeed

[13:21] Beertje Beaumont: lol Gemma

[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: yes

[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:22] Hermine: We all must find our own answers at the end of this lesson i guess

[13:22] herman Bergson: No Gemma on the contrary....

[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: or more questions as usual

[13:22] herman Bergson: At the end you should have a clear judgement about the answer yourself

[13:22] Hermine: yes or we have more questions than at the beginning^^^

[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: always do

[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: that is why we cant graduate

[13:23] herman Bergson: At least I hope to show you to what extend science is right, in my opinion

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: at least, it brings us a lot of informations

[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: yes

[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed Hermine...I really hope, that yuo have more questions at the end

[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: i have forgotten more than i ever learned

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is why I keep studying, Gemma...I too forget most of it

[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: yes

[13:25] herman Bergson: When I leave through the blog I can’t believe it was me who wrote all those lectures :-)

[13:25] Hermine: So we have always new things, even when we heard them klong ago;-)

[13:25] Hermine: So life is never boring 4 us.

[13:26] herman Bergson: So true Hermine ...never a dull moment here :-)

[13:27] Hermine: (°°)--))

[13:27] herman Bergson: Nice to see you all here at this new start....

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: ☆*¨¨*<♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''*<♥:*¨¨*☆

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: too bad missed it

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: i am sure he will come

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: and qwark also later

[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: when he can

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes....let's not begin to worry about that....may have a normal reason.....not a Qwark like one

[13:28] Hermine: perhaps longer holidays^^^

[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: maybe

[13:28] herman Bergson: We may envy him for that :-))

[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: he has not been on a lot lately

[13:28] ZANICIA Chau: So, Herman, why should it puzzle you that historically, non europeans put a priority on human-nature development? They were obviously aware that scientific things were and would develop alongside natural development. Surely it is just a matter of priorities? (sorry long comment, difficult to shorten)

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: i was afraid to get into the meat of it today

[13:29] herman Bergson: Interesting remark ZANICIA....

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: i was thinking about it

[13:29] herman Bergson: And I can answer you there....

[13:30] herman Bergson: The point is that this world is shaped ...not by those philosophies ...but by those developed in Europe...

[13:30] herman Bergson: This whole globe!

[13:30] herman Bergson: In all areas of life...

[13:30] herman Bergson: medicine, technology, education...and so on....

[13:31] herman Bergson: The Russians had the A-bomb because the West developed it....

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: and now we are all afraid of it

[13:31] herman Bergson: Like Pakistan stole the technology by using a Dutch -pakistani engineer...

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy...that is exactly what I mean....

[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: not happy thoughts

[13:32] herman Bergson: "We" created this world of science and technology......

[13:32] herman Bergson: Not too pessimistic Gemma...

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: I think we did because its easier ;)

[13:33] ZANICIA Chau: The A-bomb epitomises how things went too far. like religious fanatacism. sorry all this bad spelling

[13:33] herman Bergson: I got 5 bypasses due to that same science and technology....!

[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: I wonder how much the weather had to do with it

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: a lot Gemma !

[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: i think so

[13:33] Hermine: there are always 2 sides of the story^

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is it , Hermine....

[13:34] ZANICIA Chau: But human development isn't just the science

[13:34] ZANICIA Chau: ...and must take priority

[13:34] herman Bergson: No it isnt ZANICIA, but for a moment I wondered.....

[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: no philosophies as we know

[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: know even

[13:34] herman Bergson: is , what happened in Europe an evolutionary step of the brain????

[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: but then to many philosophy is part of science

[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: not outside of it

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: no herman i think its a way of ignoring the human factor a bit

[13:35] herman Bergson: What do you mean Gemma?

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: I have to go, TC all

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: by concentrating on the surrounding

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: take care Lizzy ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergson: That is a serious statement Ciska...

[13:35] herman Bergson: for it implies a kind of definition of being human....

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: does it?

[13:36] Gemma Cleanslate: many consider philosophy as part of science

[13:36] herman Bergson: and then immediately you have to anser the question: Where did you get that definition from?

[13:36] ZANICIA Chau: (please just call me Zan. It's much easier to cope with). I was meaning...how people prioritise the definition of being human

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Zan :-)

[13:37] ZANICIA Chau: x x

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what puzzles me....

[13:37] herman Bergson: And it is implied in the remark of Ciska, I think

[13:38] Beertje Beaumont: was it after the enlightening period after the dark ages?

[13:38] herman Bergson:  ♫♪♫♪ ♪♫♪♫   APPLAUSE    ♪♫♪♫ ♫♪♫♪ 

[13:38] herman Bergson: Bejiita !!! ^_^

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hi all

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: hey bejiita ㋡

[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: hihi

[13:38] Beertje Beaumont: Bejiita!!

[13:38] Hermine: ey bejita

[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: glad you got here anyway

[13:38] herman Bergson: You made us worry !

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: just came home, been out with some friends

[13:38] kevin67 Badger: Great discuss, but time for me to leave and go to bed (with a flu )

[13:38] kevin67 Badger: see you soon all :)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh dear...take care Kevin!

[13:38] ZANICIA Chau: aw get well soon

[13:38] Beertje Beaumont: tc Kevin

[13:38] Hermine: omg Kevin

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: get better soon Kevin

[13:39] Hermine: too much information^^^

[13:39] Hermine: but get well soon^^^

[13:39] herman Bergson: Overheated, I guess!

[13:39] Hermine: lol

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: hope we dont catch it!!

[13:39] herman Bergson: But it is about priorities indeed!

[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: the flu that is

[13:39] ZANICIA Chau: sniffles

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the flu is not nice to get for sure

[13:40] herman Bergson: I hope it is only flu and not ebola....:-((

[13:40] Hermine: oh ha

[13:40] ZANICIA Chau: oh lor! haha

[13:40] Hermine: where does he live?

13:40] herman Bergson: I don’t want to know Hermine :-))

[13:40] ZANICIA Chau: far from me I hope!

[13:40] Beertje Beaumont: in your street Daruma

[13:40] ZANICIA Chau: just kiddin'

[13:40] Hermine: mh, its a looong street^^^

[13:41] Beertje Beaumont: next door then ???....

[13:41] herman Bergson: Could be indeed!

[13:41] Hermine takes some pills

[13:41] Beertje Beaumont: pils?.....lol

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:41] herman Bergson: lol

[13:41] herman Bergson: Better medicine yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: Well....as you see....there are a lot of questions to answer...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Which of course we philosophers never do :-)))

[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: never

[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: ㋡

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:42] herman Bergson: We love the unanswered questions more :-)

[13:43] Hermine: yes and some shouldn’t be answered at anytime^^^

[13:43] herman Bergson: But to relate this to Bertrand Russell....

[13:43] ZANICIA Chau: that's why you are always puzzled!!!!!

[13:43] Hermine: its more interesting to seek the whole life 4 the answer^^^

[13:43] herman Bergson: He said.....

[13:43] LadyTrudy: I have to go...thank you for the questions :)

[13:43] herman Bergson: when a question gets answered it stops to be a philosophical question and moves to science

[13:43] ZANICIA Chau: aw bye bye for now

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: bye lady

[13:44] Hermine: but a scientist has to search 4 more even when he thinks it is answerde.

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: zan

[13:44] Hermine: an answer is only a step to "the truth"

[13:44] herman Bergson: I guess I'd better be gentle with you all at this fist lecture of the new semester....

[13:45] ZANICIA Chau: I meant bye to Lady

[13:45] Hermine: ;-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: SO...thank you all for your participation again.....

[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: lol Zan

[13:45] HermineHermine claps

[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:45] ZANICIA Chau: hehe

[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: hope to be here thursday

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman ㋡

[13:45] herman Bergson: It was a great kick off...

[13:45] ZANICIA Chau: Thanks again Herman

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ok nice to see you all

[13:45] Hermine: thank u herman

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: not bad for a first gathering

[13:45] Hermine: see u soon

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu

[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: till thursday every one:) goodnight for now

[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:46] Bernadettie: Sorry I was late

[13:46] herman Bergson: See you all on Thursday again :-)

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: bye, cu thursday

533: A final conclusion

Maybe you didn’t realize, but since May 2013 we have spend all our time on non-Western philosophy. We began with Chinese  philosophy, Yi Ching, Confucianism, Daoism. Buddhism.

The next step was Indian philosophy followed by Islamic philosophy. We then moved to Japan and finally we tried to get in touch with American Indian thinking before Columbus interfered.

The reason for our philosophical journey was among other things, that our philosophy is said to be ethnocentric, ignoring all kinds of non-western wisdom and insights.

The question is, if this is a justified point of view. In the first place, when we look at non-Western philosophy we often get into the position, that we have to ask: is this religion or philosophy?

We often use the term “philosophy" in one familiar nontechnical sense, that is, standing for a complete worldview that could be regarded as providing a fully coherent explanation of everything. 

It may be objected, however, that the existence of such a worldview is not in itself evidence for the existence of philosophy in a more technical sense of that term. 

Philosophy in this latter sense only occurs when we begin to reflect critically upon the traditional explanatory worldview: 

when, for instance, we begin to ask questions about precisely what is explained, how the proffered explanation works, and whether it is superior to rival explanatory candidates. 

The development of Western philosophy is associated with the growth of such a tradition of critical reflection. Arguably, the Indian and Chinese traditions too developed comparable critical traditions of thought to some extend.

If this critical mass is not there, we are primarily dealing with  unquestioned believes, which is the characteristic feature of religion.

In religion believes are not questioned, but explained. Islamic thinking is an extreme example of this: since 632 the Quran is not questioned, in the sense that there might be a better worldview than proposed in that book. It is only explained by imams.

One could question this point of view of course by claiming that here again I approach the problem from a Western dichotomy: philosophy - religion.

But that brings us to my next problem: we have Western and non-Western philosophy. Does it make sense to make that difference?

My answer is: yes, definitely. As I said before, philosophy becomes only real when we begin to question the obvious, when we overtake our believes and go for the new horizon.

And that characteristic is missing in the non-Western philosophies, which we have studied. There is, however, a common ground: ethics. All world views are concerned about good and evil, about the meaning of life.

But they almost all lack that specific feature, which you find in Western philosophy: the fundamentally questioning of all believes and discarding them for other believes, which explain reality in a more complete way.

I mean, what is missing in so many non-Western philosophies is this insatiable pursuit of knowledge, this never ending endeavor to fathom reality until the last elusive higgs particle.

It is this attitude, that has created science and has shaped the face of this earth. I don’t judge here, whether is is right or wrong, good or bad, it is just an observable fact.

All non-Western cultures and their philosophies are forced to coop with it. Most extreme example is the Islamic world, where due to this development, the leading elite of imams is loosing their grip on society.

Then they organize, as an extreme example, a terrorist group with the name “Boko haran”, which seems to mean something like “Western education is sin”.

I leave the book open on your desk, with the list of questions about what to think of Western and non-Western philosophy.

This has been a fruitful and rather exciting year, due to my close encounter with eternity. But it is time to pamper ourselves with a well deserved summer break.

I thank you all for your enthusiasm and participation. In stead of spending hours on studying my literature, I spent hours on making a present for you, which may help you not to forget the Philosophy Class.

Thank you.. ^_^ I’ll be back with a new project in September

The Discussion

.

[13:16] Daruma Hermine Boa: thank u herman!!!

[13:16] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:16] herman Bergson: RODNEY ! :-))

[13:16] Bejiita Imako: been great indeed Herman

[13:16] Daruma Hermine Boa: september??##

[13:16] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman..:)

[13:16] Zanicia: We thank you Herman

[13:17] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks a lot Herman!

[13:17] Bejiita Imako:  \o/

[13:17] Bejiita Imako:    ||   Hoooo!

[13:17] Bejiita Imako:   / \

[13:17] Paolo Rousselot: indeed we do

[13:17] herman Bergson: YEs September first or whatever the first Tuesday is in September:-)

[13:17] Paolo Rousselot: you've left everyone with much to ponder - thank you!

[13:17] Alaya Chépaspourquoi: oh its your holliday time, well, take good care of yurself, rest, and have fun, thanks for everything!!!!

[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa: so long? its may now^^^

[13:17] Bejiita Imako: yes ㋡

[13:18] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles

[13:18] .: Beertje :.: some people have loooooong vacations

[13:18] Lizzy Pleides: 4. September is the first Thursday

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] herman Bergson: THAT is the privilege of being the boss here Daruma :-)

[13:18] Chantal: ㋡

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa: ah ha^^

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:18] .: Beertje :.: we have a long vacation too....

[13:18] herman Bergson: And I don’t want to begin a new project and stop after a few lectures

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa: sure. understand

[13:19] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje....I do this mainly because I care a lot about you of course :-)

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: omg...

[13:19] Chantal: hehehehhe

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: hahahahah

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:19] Ciska Riverstone whispers: :)))

[13:19] Lizzy Pleides: you could hold this lecture another time , ... we would come!

[13:19] Paolo Rousselot: ah shucks Beertje - he *likes* you!

[13:19] herman Bergson: This already was the second time Lizzy.....

[13:20] Lizzy Pleides: I know herman

[13:20] herman Bergson: and it contains the seed for my new project

[13:20] .: Beertje :.: i'm afrais so Paolo

[13:20] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot chuckles...

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:20] herman Bergson: you can be read as plural too Paolo :-)

[13:20] Paolo Rousselot: always good to leave a few seeds about

[13:20] Paolo Rousselot: yes sir - just poking fun

[13:21] herman Bergson: Next project will be about the philosophy of science....

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa: cool

[13:21] Zanicia: Good

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: yay ㋡

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod

[13:21] Paolo Rousselot: over *my* head already!

[13:21] herman Bergson: But nevertheless you are right about Beertje and me Paolo ^_^

[13:21] Paolo Rousselot: :-)

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: aaa sounds great

[13:21] Rodney Handrick: Hi Lizzy

[13:21] .: Beertje :.: shhhh

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ill catch a higgs boson for you when u get back

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:22] herman Bergson: Well....when you got the message of this lecture.....

[13:22] herman Bergson: what fascinates me is the question : WHY did European philosophy so fanatically pursue KNOWLEDGE

[13:23] herman Bergson: Plz do Bejiita

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:23] herman Bergson: I don’t know how you look at it.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: but almost ALL science is the product of Western thinking

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: interesting indeed the difference between our philosophy and non western

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: some difference indeed

[13:24] herman Bergson: Whether it is right or wrong....it shapes this earth

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: maybe to free us from the medieval thinking

[13:24] herman Bergson: Teh Chinese send a rocket to the moon using American science

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes, was nothing they developed by their own at all

[13:25] herman Bergson: And that amazes me...makes me wonder......

[13:25] herman Bergson: Why that drive in those Greeks ....to begin with

[13:25] Chantal: ㋡

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: already the old greeks ㋡

[13:25] herman Bergson: They had religion too...even amny gods....

[13:25] herman Bergson: But yet Aristotle already overtook them :-)

[13:26] Chantal: Body and mind... ancient Greek speciality

[13:26] herman Bergson: So...as you may notice....there is already a new fire burning:-)

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: obviously the western economy dominates the whole world

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:26] Paolo Rousselot: :-)

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:26] Chantal: Looks forward ㋡

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes,will be nice

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: true lizzy

[13:27] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy....this economy issue is indeed another chapter.....but yet again...it is "us' who do it

[13:28] herman Bergson: and we are not in a position to be proud of that, I would say

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: yes herman

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hmm its a bit out of control for sure

[13:28] herman Bergson: you could say that, Bejiita ^_^

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: a few that wants everything sort of

[13:29] herman Bergson: But I spent already two projects on that subject :-)

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: leaving nothing to the rest of us

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah, was also a big project

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:30] herman Bergson: SO, I guess you all need a good vacation first :-)

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: Ayn Rand ... our best friend, lol

[13:30] Gemma Allen: OMG!!!

[13:30] Gemma Allen: omg

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: NOT!

[13:30] herman Bergson: Lizzy ! :-))

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:30] Chantal: Thank you Herman ㋡

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: hahaha

[13:30] Gemma Allen: the last name we need to hear before summer

[13:30] BoaDaruma Hermine Boa claps

[13:30] Chantal: Enjoy everyone ㋡

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hahaha true

[13:30] .: Beertje :.: true

[13:30] Daruma Hermine Boa: have a greta summer herman

[13:30] Gemma Allen: hopes everyone will enjoy the vacation

[13:31] Daruma Hermine Boa: great

[13:31] herman Bergson: There...you see...I taught Lizzy to curse :-)

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: loool

[13:31] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot laughs

[13:31] Zanicia: hehe

[13:31] Gemma Allen: hopes to see all at the sl11b

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes that will be fun

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:31] Gemma Allen: I am sure Herman will send out a notice about this lectures there

[13:31] herman Bergson: Ahh yes....24 and 26 juni I give presentations

[13:31] Gemma Allen: before time

[13:31] Gemma Allen: wht time

[13:31] Gemma Allen: please

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes I will, Gemma

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: you are a good teacher in that herman

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: Herman, enjoy your well deserved break and thanks again!

[13:32] Zanicia: Ditto

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes have a nice rest now Herman

[[13:32] Bejiita Imako: Herman

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: what kindof presentations Herman?

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: yes - enjoy herman and everyone ㋡

[13:32] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....without your participation the class would not exist

[13:32] Gemma Allen: and we should all wear the philosophy shirts

[13:32] Gemma Allen: hopes the time will be good for us all

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: thank you herman, have a wonderful vacation!

[[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] Philosophy Class t-shirts closed: T-shirts closed at Wainscot has just been used by Gemma Cleanslate!

[[13:32] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:32] herman Bergson: same time as my usual lecture Gemma....1PM SL-time

[13:33] Gemma Allen: oh great

[13:33] Gemma Allen: good time!!

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:33] herman Bergson: Thank you all again...:-)

[13:33] Gemma Allen: ty\

[13:33] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:33] Gemma Allen: was a good year

[13:33] Daruma Hermine Boa: bye bye until september the latest

[13:33] herman Bergson: thank you Gemma

[13:34] Gemma Allen: see you in between i hope

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: cu then

[13:34] Zanicia: Vye bye everyone until then

[13:34] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:34] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: happyvaccation all

[13:34] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: have a nice vacation on Schier to begin with:)

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy everyone ㋡

[13:34] Mikki Louise: bye Herman, take care.

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: bye

[13:35] Rodney Handrick: Bye everyone

[13:35] herman Bergson: Bye everyone :-)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and higgs

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:35] herman Bergson: But I'll be around these months....

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: bye for now:)))

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: bye

[13:36] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: bye Beertje

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: beertje

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: night everybody!

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ok gtg cu all ㋡

532: Confronting views....

When we put both world views, the European and the American Indian, next to each other, you hardly can believe that it is the result of the same intellectual abilities.

We always are confronted with the question of WHY did thinking develop in that direction and not in another direction.

On the one hand we could say, that it is the context homo sapiens lived in, that guided his thoughts and when we look at Indian thinking, this might be easy to accept as an explanation.

But when we look at European thinking it becomes more enigmatic and yet it is not a question about right and wrong ways of thinking. It just happened.

The European style of thought was set by the Greeks of classical antiquity. Whatever else it may have come to be, modern science is a continuation and extrapolation of certain concepts originating with the Greeks of the sixth, fifth, and fourth centuries B.C. 

Salient among the originally Greek notions of nature to find its way into modern science is the atomic theory of matter. 

The ancient atomists imagined all material things to be composed of indestructible and internally changeless particles, of which they supposed there were infinitely many.

That the order of nature can be successfully disclosed only by means of a quantitative description is an idea that also originated in sixth-century B.C. Greece and is attributed to Pythagoras.

Then add to this that Descartes separated our mind and soul from the material world and our physical bodies, which were only a kind of machinery,

combine this with the idea from Genesis in which it is said that God created man in his own image to have dominion over nature and to subdue it

and you’ll understand how science could develop and how we can exploit the earth as we do, based on the sacrosanct believe that only economic growth can be our god.

How completely alien is this world view to the American Indians. From their perspective European thinking could just as well have come from another planet.

The Ojibwa, the Sioux, and, if we may safely generalize, most American Indians lived in a world that was peopled not only by human persons but by persons and personalities associated with a natural phenomena. 

In one's practical dealings in such a world it is necessary to one's well-being and that of one's family and tribe to maintain good social relations,

not only with proximate human persons, one's immediate tribal neighbors, but also with the nonhuman persons abounding in the immediate environment.

 The earth, the sky, the winds, rocks, streams, trees, insects, birds, and all other animals therefore had personalities and were thus as fully persons as human beings were. 

In dreams and visions the spirits of things were directly encountered and could become powerful allies to the dreamer or visionary. 

We may therefore say that the Indians' social circle, their community, included all the nonhuman natural entities in their locales as well as their fellow clan and tribe members.

While the American Indian experienced life as living in one big family, tribe as well as evironement where bonds of kinship, mutuality, and reciprocity were guiding principles,

the European homo sapiens had become a kind of spectator and user of a material world, in which he is a kind of alien, which we now call a consumer.

While the concept of “eco-system” was implicitly present in the world view of the American Indian, the post Darwinian Western individual had to rediscover this concept ,

that he is part of nature and that, when he ignores this basic fact, he is destroying his own world. 

That we were created to have dominion over nature and to subdue it, has proven to be a rather destructive belief, but the jesuits unfortunately never listened to the “savages”.

The Discussion

[13:17] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^

[13:17] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] herman Bergson: If you like...the floor is yours....

[13:18] herman Bergson: What to think about this antagonism between such world views?

[13:18] Lizzy Pleides: there were many tribes in America, did they all have a similar philosophy?

[13:19] Gemma Allen: mostly they do

[13:19] Gemma Allen: tho some war against others over hunting rights etc

[13:19] herman Bergson: IT is hard to put it that way LIzzy.....but in general they lived close to nature yes....

[13:19] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:19] herman Bergson: and they had animistic believes

[13:19] Paolo Rousselot: similar viws Lizzy yes

[13:20] Paolo Rousselot: *views

[13:20] herman Bergson: As I said in the fist lecture about this subject...it is hard to talk about ONE Indian belief system.....

[13:21] herman Bergson: But nature is a common ground for all of them I guess

[13:21] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:21] herman Bergson: And it is interesting to note how we lost contact with nature in such an early state already

[13:21] Paolo Rousselot: indeed

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: today we just want a new iphone every half year

[13:22] herman Bergson: I mean...why had those Greek to think about matter as atoms....who told them that? :-)

[13:22] herman Bergson: How do you get such an idea......in their situation?

[13:22] Paolo Rousselot: great question!

[13:22] Gemma Allen: no clue

[13:22] herman Bergson: I really don’t know....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm already the old greeks you use to say

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and atom means indivisible in greek

[13:23] herman Bergson: but a fact is that we now live with nuclear physics...which confirm that weird Greek intuition it seems

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:23] Paolo Rousselot: or insight

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: nuclear reactors and particle accelerators as well as natural decay have shown that atoms are not undivideable at all

[13:24] herman Bergson: it was an insight Paolo, yes....but how they got it????

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: but they are the smallest basic parts of an element

[13:24] Areyn Laurasia: did the old Greeks have optics then?

[13:24] Paolo Rousselot: important point usually not seen

[13:24] herman Bergson: No Areyn....

[13:24] JB Hancroft: There are a lot of experiences that people have - modern or tribal - that are not based in science that can be rationally explained.

[13:25] herman Bergson: optics were rudimentary developed in the middle ages and refined in the 16 century

[13:25] herman Bergson: Can you give an example JB?

[13:25] Paolo Rousselot: original people had a much more holistic way of looking at life - perhaps because they lived closer to it?

[13:26] JB Hancroft: Well, I was thinking of things such as telepathy and other "ESP" experiences.

[13:26] JB Hancroft: Science might not be able to fit them into a rational structure or framework... but it doesn't invalidate the experience that people have.

[13:26] herman Bergson: There is a lot of experimenting in that area indeed, but not yet conclusive.....

[13:26] Paolo Rousselot: agreed JB

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: Indeed JB...our paradigms may be incomplete or misleading even to see things in a different way

[13:27] JB Hancroft: *nods* exactly

[13:27] Gemma Allen: true

[13:28] JB Hancroft: so... to think of some "ancient" civilization as if they were not able to access what we "moderns" can... is usually to deny them the possibility that they were perceptive in other-than-scientific ways

[13:28] Paolo Rousselot: and so how that translates to perceptions of the material (spiritual?) world...?

[13:28] JB Hancroft: just a thought :)

[13:29] herman Bergson: I am puzzled by a related thought......

[13:29] Areyn Laurasia: interesting.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_optics

[13:29] herman Bergson: take the development of knowledge in European thinking.....

[13:30] Paolo Rousselot: personally I *think* our individual and collective consciousness is getting more fragmented all the time thus removing us from the ability to see precisely what JB illustrated

[13:30] herman Bergson: Put this next to the kind of holistic world view of the American indians.....what knowledge is expected to develop there?

[13:30] herman Bergson: Well we should be careful not to become too esoteric here ^_^

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: going not so far off base as it might appear - collective typology

[13:31] CONNIE Eichel: :)

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: but still you ask the question

[13:31] Paolo Rousselot: what if the answer is entirely held in esoteric realms?

[13:31] herman Bergson: How would knowledge have developed from the Indian world view?

[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: what good is any knowledge if it can't save them in the end?

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: INFP vs. ESTJ

[13:32] herman Bergson: the Meyer test Paolo?

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: or what is it called

[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: Myers Briggs test :)

[13:32] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:32] Gemma Allen: lol

[13:32] Paolo Rousselot: look at the cultural traits with those references

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes that is the correct name...thnx Areyn :-))

[13:33] Areyn Laurasia: you're welcome

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: Germanic is very J & S

[13:33] Paolo Rousselot: Native American is thoroughly NF

[13:33] herman Bergson: who is J&S Paolo?

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hmm some sort of personality test it seems

[13:34] herman Bergson: It is Bejiita :-))

[13:34] Paolo Rousselot: J= judgers - S = Sensate

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: looks interesting

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: seems one of the most widely used too

[13:34] Paolo Rousselot: both physical, grounded, able to pay attention only to laws & rules

[13:34] Areyn Laurasia: would be similar to the American Indians animal totem symbolism?

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: what i understood is that in general the American tribes were more empirical , i think the people of early days in the rest of the world have been too

[13:34] JB Hancroft: interesting

[13:35] Paolo Rousselot: NF = Intuitive & Feeling

[13:35] Paolo Rousselot: thus more open to the mystical

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy...in fact it is the first stage of our encounter with nature and selfconsciousness.....we become animistic....

[13:35] herman Bergson: It even appears as a stage in the development of the child's brain.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: It goes through an animistic stage too.....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: But now we are stuck with all our science and thence our world view....

[13:37] herman Bergson: the one of the American Indians is completely lost

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: we dont believe until we see hard fact

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: at least some of us do

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: and most of us are not aware of it

[13:37] herman Bergson: Now we have environmentalists

[13:38] herman Bergson: The new Indians perhaps :-))

[13:38] JB Hancroft: well, that's a different kind of religion ;)

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: aaah

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:38] herman Bergsonherman Bergson grins at JB

[13:38] Paolo Rousselot: yes, - and scientists - headed toward the same goal

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: to find the higgs boson! lol

[13:38] CONNIE Eichel: :)

[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: God particle... religion in science?

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: many of environmentalists are ideologists in another sense too too

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:39] herman Bergson: I have a feeling we are at an open end here....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes LIzzy...link environmentalist with solar energy, with produced of solar panels etc etc etc....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Like the wind mill industry.....

[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: so the apparent opposites are coming together

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: yes and they want to make money with it

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: link animals that flee when they sense an earthquake coming while humans are oblivious

[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: because of our lack of appreciation of nature

[13:40] Paolo Rousselot smiles w/ Areyn

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Paolo....eventually the views have to come together.....

[13:41] herman Bergson: and not distorted by commercial longing for profits

[13:41] CONNIE Eichel whispers: I'm sorry, but I got to go... great class, kisses :)

[13:41] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:41] Gemma Allen: connie

[13:41] JB Hancroft: Have a wonderful day, Connie :)

[13:41] CONNIE Eichel whispers: bye :)

[13:41] Paolo Rousselot: the opposites have to agree to their mutual importance - not "either/or" but "both/and"

[13:41] herman Bergson: Bye CONNIE :-))

[13:42] CONNIE Eichel: ;)

[13:42] Paolo Rousselot: by Connie

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: TC Connie

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: bye conie

[13:42] CONNIE Eichel: bye bye :)

[13:42] .: Beertje :.: i have to go too...have a goodnight and thank you Herman

[13:42] herman Bergson: I guess we wont solve all problems today :-)

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:42] Gemma Allen: beertje

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: :)

[13:42] Paolo Rousselot: later Beettje!

[13:42] herman Bergson: So I thank you all again for your participation....

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:42] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[13:42] .: Beertje :.: tot later:)

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks again for all the insights

[13:43] JB Hancroft: It's philosophy... meaning there is always full employment for considering the problems, right? ;)

[13:43] herman Bergson: Keep an open mind.....

[13:43] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:43] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: always

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] Gemma Allen: forever