562: Atheism with a smile...

In my previous lecture I showed you that it was almost a logical consequence of my projects , that I had to arrive at Atheism as new subject.

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And again it seems that the subject I have chosen happens to be topical in the minds of many these days. Take the headline of today’s newspaper, for instance.

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To the left you see the latest GALLOP poll. It relates to  the answers of the Dutch poll.

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At least I already have come to one conclusion: you have to make a clear distinction regarding atheism between the philosophical, psychological and social dimensions.

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Analyzing “believing” from an epistemological perspective is something completely different from investigating it from a psychological point of view, for instance.

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The question “Why do people believe?” is a psychological question. “What means ‘to believe’?” is a philosophical, epistemological one.

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I am really wondering where I stand in the whole debate. Take the four categories of the Dutch headline: Atheist - Agnostic - Somethingist - Believer.

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What am I? What are you? I mean, when I look at my stance, I would describe myself like this: 

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1. I am an organism that interacts with its environment (life)

2. I am a sentient being and self aware (consciousness)

3. I am capable of knowing things (science)

4. This knowledge of things is the result of my sensory 

    interaction with my environment (learning)

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So I am a conscious living being, able to learn and store knowledge in its interaction with its environment and this whole process seems to have only one driving force: to survive.

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Now, where should I fit in this phenomenon: religion? I don’t say I am an atheist, for to me it is such a weird idea.

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It is like seriously debating the kind of question like “Does the Man in the Moon exist?”

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Neither am I an agnostic, because it is so weird to even consider the possibility, that the question, does the Man in the Moon exists, is a meaningful question.

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Maybe I am a Somethingist ? Yes, I am. Based on my knowledge of the macro and microcosmos so far, I am willing to assume that there are physical laws of nature.

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Laws that govern, for instance, the predictable fact that when I let go of this stone it will fall to the ground and given the same circumstances, it will always fall to the ground.

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I even can calculate the speed of its fall and the spot where it will fall, when I use the right mathematics and physical parameters.

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But of course, this kind of Something isn’t meant by the Somethingist. Such a person probably suspects that  there is something that goes beyond the laws of nature.

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Then, do I believe in God? That is of course the weirdest thing to suggest. However, I have knowledge of the fact that organisms like myself do so.

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And as a philosopher that makes me wonder and makes the question “Why is there Atheism?” a meaningful question,

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because the fact that other organisms (people) do believe, has a major impact on the interaction between all organisms.

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And as a philosopher I observe, that it leads to all kinds of peculiar points of view, which are in contradiction or conflict with my knowledge of myself and the reality, with which I am interacting.

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To give you an example: Cicero (106 - 43 BC):

“When you see a sundail or a waterclock, you see that it tells the time by design and not by chance. 

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How then can you imagine, that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence?” -end quote-

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I would say to Cicero: well, you know how a sundail works and you don’t know how the universe works and you are free to formulate a hypothesis.

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However, he didn’t know Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus, Newton and Einstein. With them he could have discussed his hypothesis of the relation between the universe, purpose and intelligence and learn.

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So you could say that Cicero is excused, but take these words, published in an interview with a prominent creationist in the New York Times in 2005.

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“The physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology… In the absence of any convincing non-design explanation, we are justified in thinking, that real intelligent design was involved in life” - end quote -

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When I read this, I am completely flabbergasted. Especially because the man says that we are “justified” in thinking……

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The logic! Because we can not explain X, we are JUSTIFIED to conjure up some other explanation. 

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OK. Let me give it a try. The design in nature that you observe, is created by aliens which visited the earth long ago.

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Then, why didn’t they ever return? Simple, because they have forgotten about earth.

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Take this text. It is a letter, sent to my newspaper by a reader as a reaction on these figures behind me:

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“There are now more atheists than believers

(January 17). All well and good, but what take the new atheists as replacement of their old viewpoint? The big bang theory for example, does not solve all riddles of existence.

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Stephen Hawking, the famous and publicity-horny physicist who has now a movie running in the theaters, even needs an infinite number of parallel worlds to find a solution for the dilemma. 

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I suspect, that those who changed their mind don’t think at all about their change.  -end quote-

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Amazing, this line of thinking. First there is the assumption, that there is or has to be an answer to all riddles of existence.

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Then there is Stephen Hawkins, who conjures up an infinite number of parallel worlds. Rubbish of course.

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And finally  there are those who changed their minds. They don’t think at all.

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As you see, why is there atheism? To begin with…. to make us smile.

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To be continued…..thank you….the floor is yours ^_^

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The Discussion

Daruma Boa claps

herman Bergson: The "of course" was the idea of the writer of the letter, Daruma :-)

Daruma Boa: ah ok

Corona Anatine: i was wondering if the american chart reveals anything abouit US presidents and economic status

herman Bergson: Now tell us about that code in our genes Max...:-)

Max Chatnoir: Well the code has two kinds of repetitive patterns.

herman Bergson: Stick to the subject corona. plz

Corona Anatine: ok DNA code

Max Chatnoir: Blocks of four codons for a single amino acid, and blocks of two codons for a single amino acid.

Corona Anatine: at which instant in tiem would the code have been fixed

Max Chatnoir: They say that if you take a codon from a 4-block and replace the A's with C's and the G's with T's or something like that, that each set of 4 blocks predicts the two blocks.

Corona Anatine: because life evolves and also humans dna has a great proportion shared with other species

Max Chatnoir: So the claim is that pattern must have been designed.

Max Chatnoir: I thought it was an intriguing idea, but I don't like the "aliens" left it.

Daruma Boa: look, we< all live in a matrix^^

Corona Anatine: it is a flawed argument

Max Chatnoir: It's just intelligent design once removed.

Areyn Laurasia: do you have a link to this?

herman Bergson: That is so funny with this theory....

Max Chatnoir: And I think the pattern must have something to do with the relative strengths of the AT and GC pairs.

herman Bergson: Because then we ask the question....Who designed the Designer???

Chantal: Why are "people" so scared of unanswered questions?

Daruma Boa: Ja the funny thing is, that really everything is connected on earth and has a pattern.

Areyn Laurasia: I'm not interested if aliens left a code or not but I would like to know more about the patterns

Daruma Boa: true chantal

Daruma Boa: we are always searching for answers

herman Bergson: Nothing wrong with that....

Max Chatnoir: I think there is a lot we don't understand about the universe.  But it seems -- well -- like a copout to blame anything we don't understand on God or Aliens.

Chantal: which is beautiful and wanted but we should be patient if we cannot find out certain things... we will with time

Corona Anatine: and how would we actually determine whetter aliens designed the gene pattern or not

Max Chatnoir: And it doesn't help!

Corona Anatine: until those alines are actually met

Areyn Laurasia: would you even know them if you met them?

herman Bergson: I wished this would happen one day Corona....

Chantal: ㋡ Areyn

Ciska Riverstone: if it helps to ease fear until the questions are found why not call it god?

Max Chatnoir: Well, I think it's an interesting phenomenon, and I love science fiction as entertainment or speculation.

Corona Anatine: well those who could visit this systtem would presumable y have the tech

Ciska Riverstone: sorry- answers

Daruma Boa: I guess we  humans have to learn more in life. Perhaps we should connect all on earth and work together without wars. Perhaps that gives us the "enlightenment" and answers we all need.

herman Bergson: Why not call it AUDI or General Motors Ciska? :-)

Areyn Laurasia: it's impossible.. there are wars because of religions

Max Chatnoir: I think that smart technological species may wind up killing themselves before they ever get off planet.

Areyn Laurasia: god, aliens, atheists.. they are just labels for something we don't understand yet

Ciska Riverstone: if that helps ;)

Chantal: Because I wouldn't call it wurlip either... god is nothing

Daruma Boa: ja areyn thats the thing to learn.

Ciska Riverstone: yes areyn

Corona Anatine: and actually my thoughts were relevant Herman - the diagram shows 'can religion fix todays problems' - note the dive int he stats around 2008

herman Bergson: Well....we have to keep one thing in mind....

Ciska Riverstone: you can call it aunt betty if you like that more herman ;)

herman Bergson: Religion is a part of the human culture....

Max Chatnoir: Well, there is a common understanding about "gods" as very powerful beings, so if some individual did make the universe, then...

Corona Anatine: its reflecting presidents and historical/economic things

herman Bergson: We can not deny its existence nor its influence on our existence...

herman Bergson: So we HAVE to question it...

Areyn Laurasia: it's needed to fill a gap, to help explain and understand.. social cohesion

herman Bergson: I donot agree Areyn....

Daruma Boa: but there was no real religion 2015 years ago.

Corona Anatine: max assumes two things a god is singular b god is sentient

herman Bergson: it doesn’t fill any gap nor explains a single thing ....

Max Chatnoir: When you are a little kid, you ask your parents to explain the world.  When you grow up, I think there is a tendency to keep asking that.

Max Chatnoir: No, it doesn't.

Daruma Boa: cos no one anser it really

herman Bergson: it only askes us to BELIEVE it does...

Corona Anatine: of course there was real religion 2015 years ago

Areyn Laurasia: and which religion would that be?

herman Bergson: .

Areyn Laurasia: :)

Daruma Boa: not in a way we do now. we believed in something, but it wasn’t named.

Corona Anatine: first define 'real' religion

Max Chatnoir: And so we think, well, if _I_ can't explain it, some very powerful and omniscient being can.

Corona Anatine: no if nothing else the jewish and vedic religions are far older than 2015 year

herman Bergson: But such thought all lead to an infinite regress Max...

Chantal: Believes in her bed at this point ㋡ Wishes everyone a good time and thank you Herman and everyone else :)

Max Chatnoir: Exactly.  so don't go there.

Areyn Laurasia: sleep well, Chantal :)

Corona Anatine: night chantal

Chantal: Waves ㋡

herman Bergson: Who designed the designer?

Ciska Riverstone: sleep well chantal

Areyn Laurasia: who codes?

Corona Anatine: why does it even have to have a designer

Daruma Boa: that was more a philosophical way. medicine men and scientists these days. they searched active, and tried to find answers. they did not just believe

Max Chatnoir: If I were a protein, I might think that DNA was God.

Daruma Boa: as we do for example.

Areyn Laurasia: because there's a pattern...

Daruma Boa: we only repeat whats in the bible.

Daruma Boa: most do

Areyn Laurasia: if I was a cell, I would think the living organism is God

Corona Anatine: gravity and erosion are not designers but they do form patterns/designs

Max Chatnoir: The rules may only be understood from outside of the system, and we can't GET outside of the system we are in.

Max Chatnoir: so we may have to put up with learning what we can.

herman Bergson: No, we can not go beyond our brain Max....

Daruma Boa: and we have to keep our mind clear

Daruma Boa: without patterns

Max Chatnoir: But not empty.  :-)

Areyn Laurasia: why don't people search for the truth instead of getting lost with labels?

Daruma Boa: with patterns and old learnings and not accepting new things we can not find anything

herman Bergson: That is a serious problem Areyn.....

Daruma Boa: hi rodney^^^

Max Chatnoir: Well, it's like the multiverse thing that Herman referred to.

Corona Anatine: what truth would that be areyn the truth a truth or your truth

Rodney Handrick: Hi Daruma

herman Bergson: for in your remark you suggest that there exists some one single thing named the truth

Areyn Laurasia: all versions of it

Max Chatnoir: That doesn't seem like the best way to account for the value of the universal constants that we see around us.

Corona Anatine: all versions of truth [do you not see the flaw in that statement

Max Chatnoir: The mass of the hydrogen atom, and so forth, are just right.

Max Chatnoir: So two possibilities is that there are universes where it isn't just right.

Corona Anatine: just right for what ?

Areyn Laurasia: duality of nature

Max Chatnoir: Or that for reasons we don't understand yet, it has to be that way.

Areyn Laurasia: There's no best way, just a continuous search for answers

herman Bergson: Question is, Max, has there be a reason.....

Max Chatnoir: Just right for being able to generate the higher elements.

herman Bergson: the concept of 'reason' is our mental construct...

herman Bergson: matter just is....period...I could say

Max Chatnoir: Well, maybe it just IS.

Max Chatnoir: LOL

Max Chatnoir: Yes.

Corona Anatine: do you know how higher elements are formed max?

Areyn Laurasia: when stars die?

Max Chatnoir: by nuclear fusion in stars?

Corona Anatine: partly yes

Max Chatnoir: I'm not a physicist, however.

Corona Anatine: yes coversion of matter by fusion

Corona Anatine: and then helium to oxygen

Corona Anatine: etc up to iron

herman Bergson: And what should that mean Corona?

Corona Anatine: anything beyond iron requires supoernova

Door Deluxe Plus: Valcyrie Resident has just entered your land !

Max Chatnoir: Good thing carbon is small.  :-)

herman Bergson: very nice, but what does it mean in relation to atheism?

Corona Anatine: amazingly enough elemental rarity correlates to star formation frequencies

Corona Anatine: i am a 'really don’t care about godist ' so have no idea

herman Bergson: ok :-)

Areyn Laurasia: when one starts of thinking is there a god or is there not a god, are they asking the right question?

Corona Anatine: no

Corona Anatine: because until we define 'god' the question has no meaning

Areyn Laurasia: and what if, in the end.. god and science are one? :)

herman Bergson: You know Areyn....this god idea.....we are stuck with it due to culture and history....

Max Chatnoir: I agree.  If we were descended from something other than primates, it might be different.  Or maybe not.

herman Bergson: But if you just forget about it...the whole debate becomes so meaningless

Corona Anatine: indeed herman

herman Bergson: So..this "believing in a god" is a psychological issue....

Corona Anatine: we can only put forward the p most likely explanation given the known and available evidence to date

herman Bergson: to begin with...

Corona Anatine: science has no 'end' as such

Max Chatnoir: Well, science is a way of looking at the world, and describing reality.  There are things it can't tell us.  Like how should be treat one another.

Max Chatnoir: That's what philosophy is for:  truth, beauty and goodness.

herman Bergson: No MAx....

Corona Anatine: well how we should treat each other can be subject to mathematical equations

Max Chatnoir: No?

herman Bergson: I wouldn't look for truth as a philosopher :-)

Corona Anatine: it says nothing about how se should

Max Chatnoir: yes, but those equations might be based on nonscientific assumptions.

Areyn Laurasia: everyone has their own truths, why must there be only one? :)

Corona Anatine: wher eis the dividing line science/non science

herman Bergson: I would look for understanding...

Daruma Boa: true areyn

Daruma Boa: i think there can not be only one

Daruma Boa: life is too complex for that

herman Bergson: Areyn...you really create a huge problem here...!!!!

Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~

herman Bergson: Take this....

Areyn Laurasia: sorry about that.. I was just thinking aloud :)

herman Bergson: I say A is TRUE....that is my truth...

Daruma Boa: and we all have to life with that answer

herman Bergson: You say NOT-A is true, that is your truth...

Daruma Boa: that there arte many answers

Daruma Boa: and more than one truth

herman Bergson: Now we live in contradicting worlds....that can not be true ^_^

Corona Anatine: but only one of the two A or not a are actually true externally

Areyn Laurasia: we do actually...

Corona Anatine: regradles sof which is right only one of the two can be

herman Bergson: To be more specific...I say the earth is flat, You Areyn say that the earth is a globe...

Max Chatnoir: None of the worlds great social systems is without flaw.

Corona Anatine: and..

herman Bergson: Which truth is the truth here???

Max Chatnoir: Great meaning governing a lot of people.

Max Chatnoir: Capitalism can be brutal.

Areyn Laurasia: yes, the earth is flat on your screen and on a map, but it's real shape is a globe.. both holds true

Max Chatnoir: Communism can be brutal.

Max Chatnoir: Socialism can be brutal.

herman Bergson: Hold on Areyn...you cheat !!!!

herman Bergson: all of a sudden you come up with the REAL shape...

Ciska Riverstone: it always depends on the reference system

Corona Anatine: actaully its not a globe in space-time

Areyn Laurasia: *smiles*

herman Bergson: so that is the REAL truth? :-))

Areyn Laurasia: no..

Max Chatnoir: But that's because you can get outside of it, Areyn.

.: Beertje :.: sorry it's late...I have to go to sleep

Areyn Laurasia: the truth is it's based on the context ;)

Ciska Riverstone: sleep well beertje ㋡

Daruma Boa: night beertje

.: Beertje :.: goodnight and thank you Herman

Daruma Boa: welterusten

Corona Anatine: nite Beertje

herman Bergson: Sweet dreams Beertje :-)

Areyn Laurasia: good night Beertje

.: Beertje :.: welterusten:)

Rodney Handrick: goodnight beertije

Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

Max Chatnoir: Goodnight, little bear.  :-)

herman Bergson: WEll..I think it might the the subject of the next lecture....to look at the psychology of believing...

Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

Daruma Boa: oh ja. interesting^^

Max Chatnoir: Sounds like fun.  :-)

Corona Anatine: okies

Areyn Laurasia: do I need to bring a gag next class? :)

herman Bergson: Oh yes Max....it IS fun :-)

Corona Anatine: thanks herman good presentation

Ciska Riverstone whispers: (and finding out atheiss believe too ;) )

Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman ㋡

herman Bergson: Why should you Areyn ? ^_^

Areyn Laurasia: think I'm more of a somethingist...

Daruma Boa: thank you herman. see u thursday. good night and welterusten^^

Areyn Laurasia: goes and hunt codons..

herman Bergson: You are quite something indeed Areyn ^_^

Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.  This always goes so fast!

Areyn Laurasia: lol...

Areyn Laurasia: I want to challenge the way I think

herman Bergson: Thank you all again....

Ciska Riverstone: thank you all - good day or night folks ㋡

Areyn Laurasia: of course.. most of the time.. I don't even know what I'm thinking... need to find structure

herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

Max Chatnoir: Oh, I'm suspecting the stability of the GC pair.  ALL of the codons that are only GC are four-blocks.

Rodney Handrick: Thanks Herman

Max Chatnoir: All of the codons that are AT are two blocks.

Corona Anatine: as are cg

Max Chatnoir: So somewhere in there is an explanation.

Corona Anatine: an explanation of randomness

herman Bergson: You figure out the code, Max, and tell us next time :-))

Corona Anatine: more plausible from the alien visitor idea is chromosome 2

Areyn Laurasia: why must there be an alien involved?

Corona Anatine: there doenst

Max Chatnoir: Well, I have a preference for natural explanations.

Corona Anatine: but if the idea has any plausbile basis

Areyn Laurasia: this would be a fun puzzle to solve

Corona Anatine: then chromosome two would be the place to statrt looking

Max Chatnoir: I'll try to find a link and send it to Herman.

Max Chatnoir: I don't think we need aliens for chromosome 2.

Corona Anatine: we dont

herman Bergson: This idea of aliens doesnt answer a thing....

Corona Anatine: but if there wer ealines inlvoled

Max Chatnoir: No, it isn't helpful.

Corona Anatine: then that would be the place to look

herman Bergson: It is a lovely thought, appealing....but makes no sense at all :-)

Areyn Laurasia: blocks of 4.. blocks of 2... 42!!! The answer to everything

Max Chatnoir: Yes, it's an entertaining notion.

herman Bergson: But we LOVE consipacy theories...

herman Bergson: conspiracy

Max Chatnoir: LOL.  I didn't notice that.  good for you!

herman Bergson: But philosophically totallly uninteresting....

Max Chatnoir: and scientifically uninteresting.

Max Chatnoir: Unless there is an alien at hand...

herman Bergson: yes...for it moves the question just to another station...

Max Chatnoir: Exactly.

herman Bergson: Yes Max.....I already have been waiting for the alien all my life...

Corona Anatine: goodnight all

Areyn Laurasia: goodnight Corona..

herman Bergson: but so far...they only made it to Hollywood...

Max Chatnoir: Goodnight, Corona.

Rodney Handrick: Goodnight Corona

Max Chatnoir: Have you read The Book of Strange New Things?

Areyn Laurasia: what would the code lead to? an improved species?

Max Chatnoir: Well, the code has already lead to lots of species.  :-)

herman Bergson: The Book of Strange New Things? No...what is it?

Max Chatnoir: It's about a missionary to a distant planet.

Max Chatnoir: Lovely little novel, and doesn't fall into any of the usual plot twists.

Rodney Handrick: http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Strange-New-Things/dp/055341884X

herman Bergson: a missionary...oh my....what belief was he representing?

Max Chatnoir: That's it.

Max Chatnoir: Some kind of fairly conservative Christian, I think.  That isn't really clear.

Areyn Laurasia: isn't reality already quite strange these days?

herman Bergson: yes Areyn...it is....

herman Bergson: But I discovered one thing....

herman Bergson: it is mainly due to our misconception of ourselves...

Max Chatnoir: That's probably a good insight.

herman Bergson: We have a brain....we think and we believe that it is a consistent machine...

herman Bergson: but it isn't at all....

herman Bergson: it is one big mess of conflicting systems

Areyn Laurasia: yet there is a pattern in there somewhere

herman Bergson: emotions, rationality, logic, impulses....one big mess :-)

Max Chatnoir: Yes, that's a good point.  And I'm sure it influences the kinds of gods that we create.

herman Bergson: yes there is Areyn..ad we call it the "Self"

herman Bergson: Oh yes Max....

Areyn Laurasia: do people with the same kind of religion have the same kind of skull structure?

Max Chatnoir: Maybe the same kinds of social structure.

herman Bergson: The fact that we have some idea about a "SELF", keeps us in one piece mentally....

Rodney Handrick: That's a new one...

herman Bergson: skull structure????Areyn....

Rodney Handrick: Birds of a feather?

herman Bergson: Are you back to Phrenology???:-)

Areyn Laurasia: remember some previous class? about thoughts

Areyn Laurasia: how the skull shape the brain.. and how the brain shapes the thoughts?

Max Chatnoir: I think that fact that we talk to ourselves is interesting.

herman Bergson: The skull has developed through the millions of years indeed...

herman Bergson: I think I'll get back to that Max......for that is a funny issue indeed

Max Chatnoir: So is there more than one self in there to talk to?

Max Chatnoir: And if we talk to God, is that another self?

herman Bergson: lol....a classic Max....

herman Bergson: When I say..I talk to myself....

Areyn Laurasia: some people believe the God is the person him or herself :)

Max Chatnoir: In which case, it's not surprising that we can't agree on the nature of God.

herman Bergson: then this "I" must be someone else than this "myself"

Max Chatnoir: Well, I can see that next week will be interesting.

herman Bergson: Will be next Thursday , Max :-)

herman Bergson: Might keep yu locked in for the rest of the week.:-))

Max Chatnoir: Oh, right!  I have to take my husband to the dentist, so I'll be trying out my SL mobile.

Max Chatnoir: See you Thursday, then.

herman Bergson: OK..:-))

Max Chatnoir: Bye Areyn and Rodney.

Areyn Laurasia: good night

Rodney Handrick: Bye Max

Rodney Handrick: See you later

Areyn Laurasia: it's such a coincidence to just listen to dna music.. come to philosophy class and find a mention of dna again..

561: Why atheism ?

Why is there atheism….what for? I think it was CB Axel who said: “Shouldn’t the question be …Why is there theism? “

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Yes you could start at the other end of the street, but it is still the same street. But in both cases I would have had the problem that I am facing now.

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In 2007 I started with my first project: 100 Philosophers. The trick was, that I used the book f Peter Stokes, “100 Essential Thinkers” as a guideline.

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I never had to ponder about the content of the next lecture. I just picked the next philosopher from the book.

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And that was my method: at the basis of every project there was a book or a number of books. They contained the trail of bread crumbs I followed.

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Where I am now, began with the project “The Mystery of the Brain”. When I wrote my thesis in 1977 which was about the Mind - Body problem, nothing, what we know now, was known about the brain.

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Thence the project was really exciting and an eye-opener for me and also for those who attended this class.

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In relation to our present subject one of the most interesting observations was the “God helmet” of Koren and Persinger.

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Although questioned, they alleged, that the helmet generated experiences, which looked similar to stories of Saints seeing divine apparitions.

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Another part of this project was the book “We are our Brain” by Dick Swaab (2010), which filled in a lot of gaps in explaining emotions, beliefs, sensory experiences and so on and the brain.

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Then there was the project on Non-Western Philosophies and the observation that only the Western philosophy had produced science as it is now.

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Worse even, Islamic philosophy got completely stuck in explaining the Quran after 1100 A.D and that, while knowledge of Aristotle, medicine, mathematics  and astronomy were parts of its culture.

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All non-Western philosophies seemed to be concerned only with the question of how to be a good human being, how to live a good life.

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One exception might be in India with the Ajivika and Carvaka schools of atomism which emerged about the 6th century BCE as an alternative to the orthodox Hindu pro-Vedic schools.

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The Carvaka school of philosophy was a true materialist or naturalist philosophy. A naturalism aligns philosophy with science and the natural world, rejecting the supernatural.

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As for Carvaka philosophy, there is no continuity after the 12th century, probably eclipsed by Hinduism.

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It was a small step to continue with a project with the title “Why Science is Right”. It relates to a similar issue: the separation of state and religion which we have achieved to various extends.

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In my case it was about the separation of science and religion. The relation science = atheism emerged in particular after 1859, after Darwin’s “On the Origin of Species”.

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The foundations for the separation of science and religion, however, were already created  in the Age of Enlightenment, an era from the 1650s to the 1780s 

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in which cultural and intellectual forces in Western Europe emphasized reason, analysis and individualism rather than traditional lines of authority, that is, religion.

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Thence there could not have been another outcome. I had to pay attention to atheism, because religion had become such a peculiar feature of human behavior to me.

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But I had and stil have no book to use as my guideline.  One of the reasons is that there is so much information on this subject.

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Another reason is that I have some unphilosophical  intuition that  atheism or visa versa theism is such a nonsense subject, but fun.

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I’ll keep working on it, but at least today I  want to make one final point. When I ask the question “Why is there atheism?”

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I look at that map on the wall to the left of me and then I like to bring to your attention just his: 

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The United Nations Human Rights Committee explains article 18 of The  Universal Declaration of Human Rights thus:

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1. The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion (which includes the freedom to hold beliefs) in article 18.1 is far-reaching and profound; 

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it encompasses freedom of thought on all matters, personal conviction and the commitment to religion or belief, whether manifested individually or in community with others….

.

2. Article 18 protects theistic, non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. The terms ‘belief’ and ‘religion’ are to be broadly construed. 

.

Article 18 is not limited in its application to traditional religions or to religions and beliefs with institutional characteristics or practices analogous to those of traditional religions.

.

Only the GREEN countries on the map respect this article 18 for 100%. I hope you have your magnifying glass with you. THIS is our world.

.

I guess, all religions have something to explain,…….. to begin with….. and I think that questioning theism makes good sense.

.

Thank you, ………… the floor is yours… ^_^

The  Discussion

Corona Anatine: no its free to use

herman Bergson: By clicking the map you'll get the URL where you can download the report on Freedom of Thought

Daruma Boa: religion is a kind of seeing the world. or better, explaining the world.

herman Bergson: it is free

Freedom of Thought : The Philosophy Class: Lectures every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL-time, free access

Freedom of Thought: Freedom of Thought at Wainscot has just been used by Bejiita Imako!

Freedom of Thought : The Philosophy Class: Lectures every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL-time, free access

Freedom of Thought: Freedom of Thought at Wainscot has just been used by Max Chatnoir!

herman Bergson: I have read a lot of horror stories....

herman Bergson: but this report is oen of the "best"

Corona Anatine:  except it does neither Daruma 

Tama Ahn: netherlands centric map hehe

Corona Anatine: not sre why its called a freedom of thought report = woul;d be more accurately caleld restriction of thought report

Areyn Laurasia: I'm surprised to see some countries in black

Corona Anatine: well look which nationas are black

Gemma Allen: serious countries too

Corona Anatine: bigt chuck ar eislamic

Corona Anatine: and china

herman Bergson: China, Saoudi Arabia....doesn’t surprise me

Areyn Laurasia: because it's like the only place I ever saw church, temple and mosque in a row

Corona Anatine: what is the one on coats of south america

herman Bergson: Venezuela

Gemma Allen: oh yes

Corona Anatine: and chile - no surprise eairht really

Max Chatnoir: Aweful lot of red and black

herman Bergson: You would expect te US and Europe to be green......

Corona Anatine: no

Max Chatnoir: New World/ Old World

herman Bergson: But as you see...it isn’t the case

Tama Ahn: netherlands where they scare cartoonist with police squats in the morning lifting him from his bed

Tama Ahn: all green

Bejiita Imako: the world is terrible now in general. Just look what IS and Boko Haram are doing at moment, wiping out entire towns with 1000s of people cause of their screwed up alterned image if islam

Corona Anatine: it would be nice if they were  but not expected they are yellow or orange

Bejiita Imako: its really sad

Corona Anatine: interesting why a small nation on west african coast is green

herman Bergson: I really do not know what is motivating these people Bejiita...

Areyn Laurasia: is the report biased?

CB Axel: I would like to see this map divide up the US by state.

herman Bergson: And more so, I don't know who is financing these people!!!!

Bejiita Imako: not me either, its like they are posessed by demons or something

Corona Anatine: as is Montenegro and a tiny part of the baltic states

Corona Anatine: oh and Taiwan also

Areyn Laurasia: it's seeing injustice in the world and suffering and a lack of help, Bejiita

herman Bergson: I cant get rid of the idea that Boko Haran and IS are USED by those who finance them.....for their own agenda

Corona Anatine: would that be any othe rway herman

Gemma Allen: and last week killed about 2000 people

CB Axel: You mean like how American voters are used by those who finance elections?

Corona Anatine: 200 that got news coverage

Bejiita Imako: yes, was kind of depressed when i head about it

herman Bergson: Yes CB...something like that....

Bejiita Imako: its getting worse and worse

Max Chatnoir: I have speculated that religion is an extension of social or community relations -- a local deity is an uber alpha male.   And if you are his buddy, then you are friends with the uber alpha male.

Bejiita Imako: :(

Gemma Allen: little new coverage

Corona Anatine: exactly

Areyn Laurasia: how many million went to march in solidarity for a few and ignored the millions?

Corona Anatine: the 2000 were just those that got mentioned

Bejiita Imako: probably even more got wiped out or getting right now at moment

Bejiita Imako: i feel so powerless, Wish i could do something but I cant

herman Bergson: But to get back to our main issue here.....

Areyn Laurasia: you can

Bejiita Imako: poor people

Corona Anatine: no very little we can do

Areyn Laurasia: become aware

herman Bergson: This map shows what religions and ideologies do to freedom of thought

Corona Anatine: the map strongly resembles the map covering women status and LGBT rights

herman Bergson: And you asked Is this a biased picture, Areyn...

Corona Anatine: alwasy a dark patch from north africa to indai

Areyn Laurasia: yes

herman Bergson: In a way I would say YES.....

Tama Ahn: no in iran you can get a sex change .. just cant be gay

Areyn Laurasia: Things look very different from the street..

herman Bergson: It is biased in the sense that it takes the Universal Human rights as standard

hyacinth: I don't know if it's religion that limits freedom of thought. 

herman Bergson: And not all countries in the world agree with that standard....China as number one in this

Areyn Laurasia: There are supposedly more christians in China than Europe?

Max Chatnoir: there are more PEOPLE in china than in Europe!

herman Bergson: Yes and China has become less restricting on christians....

Tama Ahn: yeh only last year or so?

herman Bergson: but that is not a matter of freedom of thought, but a pragmatic choice

herman Bergson: If you cant fight them, join them...so to speak

Max Chatnoir: Like Christianity in Constantinian Rome?

herman Bergson: I dont know Max :-)

Corona Anatine: why is Germany so restrictive of thought - i would have thought it was orange

herman Bergson: plz read the report Corona

Corona Anatine: yes of course that would explain things

herman Bergson: But I get the feeling that atheism today is a result of conflicting cultures....

Tama Ahn: how?

herman Bergson: Like Islam conficts with Western culture like Huntington predicted that would be the future

science24: included but not limited to that

Gemma Allen: i get the impression Germany is having a real pullback on beliefs

Areyn Laurasia: even if some claims western government is more like islamic than the islamic countries?

herman Bergson: Yes there to conflict is out in the streets...

Max Chatnoir: That's an interesting idea.  You don't want to pick a side so you pick no side?

Daruma Boa: we have in Germany a lot of problems with belief;-)

Daruma Boa: these days it causes only problems.

Max Chatnoir: Being an atheist is better than choosing the wrong version of God?

Gemma Allen: interesting thought

Areyn Laurasia: how about being spiritual but not belonging to any denomination of religion|?

Daruma Boa: what is the wrong version?

Corona Anatine: 550 odd pages -it can wait :

science24: to some extent Max, but atheism is a side

herman Bergson: Well that is such an issue....in the atheist debate....

Daruma Boa: true areyn. i think we are on our way to see this.

Max Chatnoir: But not an alliance with somebody's uber alpha male.

Corona Anatine: that suggests there is a rigth version of 'god' possible

Daruma Boa: not to decide for one side.

herman Bergson: they pick just one god....the christian one....

herman Bergson: most of the time....

Gemma Allen: I rea part of that report during vacation

herman Bergson: That is understandable in a cultural sense but in fact so weird....

herman Bergson: I guess it did not make you happy Gemma

Corona Anatine: couldnt we just nuke all the black bits of the world and thereby make it more free thinking

Daruma Boa: hey Rodney. punctual as ever^^^

Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

Gemma Allen: incredible

Rodney Handrick: Hi Daruma

Bejiita Imako: hi Rodney

Ciska Riverstone: lets paint it pink - worked already once ;)

Daruma Boa waves

Max Chatnoir: Do muslims have missionaries?  I really don't know.

Rodney Handrick: Hi Bejiita

Corona Anatine: not in a christian sense

herman Bergson: I would say NO Daruma because the nuking is an act of totally unfree thinking :-)

Gemma Allen: i am sure they do

herman Bergson: I would say Yes Max...

Gemma Allen: imams who open mosques

Ciska Riverstone: not sure if they do max - but i met one already ;)

herman Bergson: They stood for the gates of Vienna somewhere around...what was it...1300 or so...1400?

herman Bergson: Bringing the Islam to Europe

herman Bergson: Killing the infidel

hyacinth: depends what you call a missionary.

Max Chatnoir: Ah, good point.

Corona Anatine: also it is good that most of the world is blue - showing how free from restricive thought dolphins and whales are

Object:  Frans de Waal has just been used by CB Axel!

Daruma Boa: herman i missed the point. why no?

Max Chatnoir: But was that a missionary or an invasion?

CB Axel: So jihadists are missionaries?

Areyn Laurasia: time to move to the oceans....

Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~

herman Bergson: But their missionaries are most of the time fully armed...we now call thenm terrorists

Gemma Allen: but there are missionaries as those who wish ot convert new

Gemma Allen: members

CB Axel: Well, look at how the Crusaders treated "infidels."

Gemma Allen: anywhere in the world

Max Chatnoir: True.

Gemma Allen: now not then

Max Chatnoir: Not exactly peaceful.

Areyn Laurasia: there are extremists in any religion

herman Bergson: WellCB...if you assume that they act from faith....they are spreading their faith by killing the infidel

Gemma Allen: i think there are even extreme atheists

herman Bergson: It is a bad marketing strategy....but yet....

hyacinth: yes

Max Chatnoir: Like killing doctors that give abortions.

Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma

Max Chatnoir: Those people think they are acting from faith.

hyacinth: Islam also has peaceful missionaries and apologists

herman Bergson: Yes Max....

Gemma Allen: yes they do

CB Axel: Killing abortion doctors is giving the death penalty to murderers, in their eyes.

Max Chatnoir: no due process.

herman Bergson: But I do not know where in the Bilble is written that you have the right to kill and murder

Gemma Allen: oh goodness in the old testament

Max Chatnoir: In fact, I think it says not to.

Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

Gemma Allen: lots of places

Corona Anatine: the thing is Herman doesn’t acturally teach us philosophy -he gets us to teach ourselves philosophy

Gemma Allen: eye for an eye

Bejiita Imako: hehe

hyacinth: as a pro life person, people who bomb ND terrorize abortionists make me so angry.

Areyn Laurasia: and the world goes blind....

herman Bergson: I am not the oracle indeed, Corona ^_^

Areyn Laurasia: so how are we going to have freedom of thought? by letting people have a chance to live as they will, in peace first?

Max Chatnoir: You're Socrates.  :-)

CB Axel looks for hemlock to hide.

herman Bergson: That might be a goos start Areyn

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Corona Anatine: yeah you just us the roadsigns - we have to travel there ourselves

herman Bergson: Thoughts never kill....they may however annoy you :-)

herman Bergson: goos means good :-)

herman Bergson: Though maybe a goose is wiser than we are :-)

CB Axel: In typonese

Tama Ahn: how exactly is freedom of thought given? doesn't that imply it's not free.. but somehow handed to you?

Max Chatnoir: :-)

Tama Ahn: heh

Corona Anatine: who could say

Max Chatnoir: What a good question!

Areyn Laurasia: brainwashed from young.. ^.^

Corona Anatine: geese lack religion so perhaps they are

CB Axel: We're all free to think. We just all can't express our thoughts or act on them freely.

herman Bergson: Difficult question, for freedom exists only in relation to limitations, boundaries

Tama Ahn: yeh, and what is seen as crime in one country isn’t in another

herman Bergson: where does freedom end?

Corona Anatine: where it begins ?

Daruma Boa: does freedom end?

Areyn Laurasia: start free and lose it all fighting for freedom

Max Chatnoir: where you start bullying people who don't agree with you.

Daruma Boa: ja the fighting has to stop.

Bejiita Imako: yes

Daruma Boa: just be free. easy words but hard to do

Max Chatnoir: The person who fires the first shot has lost the argument.

herman Bergson: Well I guess there can be an answer....

Areyn Laurasia: or fuel the fire for a few world wars

herman Bergson: Maybe we should not think in terms of absolute freedom.....

Corona Anatine: an answer yes the answer maybe

Daruma Boa: no max. i guess times change. also when peeps die these days.

herman Bergson: we all live in contexts...

Daruma Boa: but we also saw in paris, that a pencil is harder that an weapon

herman Bergson: a social context, a moral context , a religious context....

Ciska Riverstone: people need to learn to disagree... and not feel that thats the end of the world as they know it.

Max Chatnoir: Yes, there has to be some kind of social consensus.

Daruma Boa: and I hope this will grow

Corona Anatine: well all have absolute freedom of thought - just not of expressing it

CB Axel: I agree, Ciska

Daruma Boa: the power of the pencil and the freedom of mind

herman Bergson: so in the context of religion/non-religion you can speak of total freedam...

Corona Anatine: but

Gemma Allen: interesting that most people hated that magazine but came out to defend it

Corona Anatine: relgion tends to narrow the focus of thoughts questions

Areyn Laurasia: could it be a ploy by the magazine to gain readership?

Daruma Boa: i did not hate it^^

Gemma Allen: omg

Gemma Allen: OMG!!!

Corona Anatine: what

Max Chatnoir: It sure did gain readership, but I can't believe it was a plot.

Tama Ahn: i didnt know about the magazine lol

herman Bergson: Oh my...the conspirecy theory :-)

Corona Anatine: the hired hitmen to kill them just to boost sales figures

Gemma Allen: ah it was satirical and offended every one

Bejiita Imako: eeeeh?

Bejiita Imako: that seems improbable

CB Axel: Like Sony claimed they were hacked to get people to care about a silly movie?

Ciska Riverstone: the sad thing is that in this crazy world we almost belive that

Max Chatnoir: If you don't like a magazine, don't buy it.

Gemma Allen: nono

Gemma Allen: that is sony!!!

Corona Anatine: no someone else might have done so [maybe] but not the mag itself

Gemma Allen: we are talking about charie hebdo

Gemma Allen: in Paris

herman Bergson: there we talk of freedom of thought too....

CB Axel: I know.

.: Beertje :.: could it be a ploy by the magazine to gain readership? how can you think such a thing?

CB Axel: But it's another conspiracy theory.

Tama Ahn: lol

Gemma Allen: oh wow

Daruma Boa: true beertje. sometimes funny some thoughts.

Daruma Boa: but ist also to handle the fear you have

.: Beertje :.: it's not funny,,it's scary

Daruma Boa: humans like to think very unusual things, just to have "peace" for her fears

Gemma Allen: i think that thought would scare most conspiracy theorists

Ciska Riverstone: it is Beertje - the scary thing is that for a millisecond you can almost take it into consideration these days :/

Tama Ahn: oh now people shooting with automatic weapons are scary all of a sudden?

Tama Ahn: hehe

Areyn Laurasia: maybe I hang around people who question too much :)

Tama Ahn: guess they are

Corona Anatine: there is a more significant item currently than charlie - and that is raif badawi

Gemma Allen: true

Rodney Handrick: true

Bejiita Imako: ah

CB Axel: yes

Corona Anatine: 1000 lashes for aiming to have a free debate on liberalism

herman Bergson: Who is that Corona....

Daruma Boa: corona its all together. all things that happen in a sum have a reason.

Corona Anatine: saudi prisoner

Daruma Boa: u can not separate that.

Gemma Allen: it may be that that north of the equator is considered still more civilized

Daruma Boa: its a process of human beings

Daruma Boa: of the sociall life

herman Bergson: Ahh the Saoudi man who was sentenced to 1000 lashes?!

Corona Anatine: or Gemma - the map suggests that the hotter the climate the more restrcitibe the thinking

Max Chatnoir: Well, south of the Equator is mostly ocean.  :-)

CB Axel: But he lives in a black country on the map. Charlie Hebdo is in a yellow one.

Corona Anatine: maybe heat makes thought less liberal

CB Axel: One expects that there\

Corona Anatine: not as far as the extremists are concerned

Corona Anatine: for them the whole world is black

.: Beertje :.: look how red Syberia is....and it's COLD there

herman Bergson: From an evolutionary point of view it might be the case that the stuggle to survive is due to that...

Max Chatnoir: In a black country, Charlie Hebdo would never have been published.

herman Bergson: No Max...indeed

Areyn Laurasia: out of respect for others? or out of fear?

Max Chatnoir: Repression.

CB Axel: fear

Corona Anatine: thus it is a bigger thing that Raif did

CB Axel: true

Tama Ahn: if our countries were being thorn by war and rebels and violent revolutions around some corner we would perhaps also have more restrictions on the expressions and thinking stuff i suppose

herman Bergson: China even said that we have to rethink our concept of freedom of press because it provokes people and makes them terrorists

Gemma Allen: hah

Max Chatnoir: Hmmm.

Corona Anatine: well china would say that perhaps

Max Chatnoir: Look what you made me do?

herman Bergson: It did Corona....

herman Bergson: Their central Press Office

Bejiita Imako: ok

Corona Anatine: yes but being china would it have said anything else

.: Beertje :.: so it's our fault what the terrorists did?

Corona Anatine: many beleive so

herman Bergson: It regarded the freedom of press in the Western world as one of the causes of terrorism...

Tama Ahn: our fault ? i didnt even choose to get born lol

Areyn Laurasia: and we all live in interesting times...

.: Beertje :.: they are jalous

.: Beertje :.: at our way of living and freedom

herman Bergson: Then it was someone else who chose for you Tama:-)

Tama Ahn: seems so

Max Chatnoir: Well, if you poke at a bully, there is a good chance of getting punched, so there is something in that, but doesn't that policy just encourage bullies?

CB Axel: I think they're more afraid of our way of living and freedom.

Corona Anatine: well according to orthodox islamic belief - by being born you are automatically muslim

Areyn Laurasia: a bully wouldn't be a bully unless they are insecure and feel a need to reclaim some sort of power/balance?

herman Bergson: Well I think you've got enough to think about now.....

Bejiita Imako: indeed

herman Bergson: Have a look at the report....

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Daruma Boa: can be^^^

Corona Anatine: 542 pages worth thanks herman appreciated

Tama Ahn: anyway the fairytale believes are just a tool in war, but you are right to say the younger religions still need to have the process of domestication

herman Bergson: And let me thank you all again for your participation.....

Daruma Boa: thank you very much herman.

Bejiita Imako: this was interesting

CB Axel: That "bullies are insecure" theory, I believe, is not necessarily true. I think some bullies just feel entitled to superiority.

Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman- thanx all

herman Bergson: We'll continue next Tuesday :-))

Bejiita Imako: gonna read through that PDF later

Corona Anatine: thnaks Herman

herman Bergson: and now some fun :-)

Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday

Corona Anatine: good presentation

Daruma Boa: ja cu tuesday

Daruma Boa: oi

Bejiita Imako: hehehe

Tama Ahn: 542 pages good luck

Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~

Corona Anatine: hmm Herman griefs his own class

CB Axel: Thank you, herman. See you all on Tuesday.

Areyn Laurasia: lots of reading...

.: Beertje :.: smiles

Bejiita Imako: hehehehe

herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^

bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class!

Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

Daruma Boa waves

Rodney Handrick: Thanks

.: Beertje :.: have a goodnight all:)

560: Atheism...Theism...how to debate..?

Philosophy aims at clarification and understanding. What marks out an investigation as philosophical is its concern 

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to provide ultimate explanations and understanding, or failing this, to find some other final or halting description, such as ‘mystery’ or ‘brute fact’ or simply “for the moment unanswerable”.

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Or you might suggest a speculative answer. For some reason it sometimes seems to me, that we have trouble to live with unanswered questions.

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In my previous lecture I already pointed at the option, that not every sentence, which looks like a question, is a meaningful question.

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An other often observed line of thinking is, that when there can’t be found a scientific explanation, there still can be another explanation: a supernatural one.

.

This is what J.J.C. Smart in his “Atheism & Theism” (2003) called  a “God of the gaps”. As he wrote:

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To argue for theism on the basis of gaps in scientific explanation is a risky endeavor, since the gaps may be filled in. 

.

Thus Newton held that God would have to readjust the motions of the planets from time to time as the perturbations due to their mutual accelerations built up. 

.

Later La Place proved the stability of the solar system.4 E.W. Barnes was a fine mathematician who became a theologically modernist and skeptical bishop. 

.

Nevertheless, more than sixty years ago he wrote ‘The mystery of life is unsolved, probably insoluble’. 

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If he had known of all the developments in biochemistry and molecular biology that have occurred in more recent times 

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he would no doubt have thought the mystery to have at least been greatly diminished.( pg.152)

.

When you look at history, there yet may be some hope on ultimate explanations and understanding.

.

In the early days of mankind, I guess, for almost everything was a supernatural explanation. 

.

Step by step our rational and scientific mind came up with other kinds of explanations.

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Consequently the realm of the supernatural is getting smaller and smaller and the realm of scientific explanation grows and grows.

.

In the Australia, US and Europe this has lead to an extensive debate on theism and atheism. In other areas it seems to lead to violence and plain murder to “defend” the particular theism.

.

As I have said already several times, it is totally uninteresting for each of us to declare how important we think it is to be a theist or an atheist.

.

That is not the focus of this project. What I am focused on here is to study the reasonings and arguments which are used in the debate.

.

Or to use J.J. C. Smart’s words regarding the goal of his debate with J.J. Haldane in “Atheism & Theism”:

.

“Sympathetic understanding of one another’s position is what I here aim for.”

.

To which I would add, that maybe  history may show, what the ultimate explanations are in this debate

.

On some website on Atheism I found a nice explanation of how to get a sympathetic understanding of one another’s position.

.

Take your time to read the flowchart closely. 

.

A quintessential feature of such a discussion is EVIDENCE. In the atheism vs. theism debate is the legitimacy of evidence an important issue.

.

Let me state at least one condition for evidence to be legit: it has to be observable and verifiable, 

.

not only for the person who offers something as evidence, but also for independent others.

.

Thank you…. the floor is yours….. ^_^

.

The Discussion

Corona Anatine: ok

herman Bergson: Nothing much controversial here today, I guess :-)

Corona Anatine: it’s what you said earlier Herman

Corona Anatine: the bit about

herman Bergson: Which was Corona?

Corona Anatine: scientific explanation, there still can be another explanation: a supernatural one.

Corona Anatine: well

Corona Anatine: that is impossible because

Corona Anatine: if its explainable then its natural

herman Bergson: that is begging the question....

Corona Anatine: something that is supernatural by definition cannot be explained

herman Bergson: a lot of people are convinced there are supernatural explanations where science stops...

Jakey Fitchbutt: I think what he meant that in the gaps between observable fact, people tend to fall into supernatural theories, like Creationism

herman Bergson: Just take Intelligent Design ideas

Daruma Hermine Boa: science stops a lot;-) we are all only humans, and scientist have to find new things.

herman Bergson: Exactly Jakey....

herman Bergson: It is not that I personally support supernatural explanations...

Corona Anatine: but 'supernatural is not an explanation it is evasion of explanation

herman Bergson: But theists definitely do

Daruma Hermine Boa: Finding a proof is not possible, cos there is no real proof in life

Corona Anatine: in my opinion

Jakey Fitchbutt: there are huge gaps in science, yet the areas between those gaps are growing rapidly outward

herman Bergson: Exactly Corona...in your opinion....

Daruma Hermine Boa: the "proof" is only for our fears of the unknown

herman Bergson: and the goal of this project is to analyze such an opinion :-)

Corona Anatine: i though you would appreciate the rider

Daruma Hermine Boa: ;-)

herman Bergson: Yes Daruma....

Jakey Fitchbutt: I've been having issues with images loading, can you please send me a copy of the chart?

herman Bergson: what puzzles me often is why people can not accept the "no answer present" outcome

herman Bergson: let me check Jakey....

Daruma Hermine Boa: true herman. we have to learn that.

Marco Visage: Currently, I'm not aware of any scientific body that can effectively disprove nor prove a theistic point of view, so this seems to mean a theist's point of view could be valid

herman Bergson: That is an often heard statement Marco...and indeed you are right...

Corona Anatine: well in theory scientists do accept a 'no answer possible' outcome/conclusion

Jakey Fitchbutt: not knowing drives us nuts, not having any info is where we get paranoid and light torches and grab the pitch forks :P

herman Bergson: So let the theist proof that he is right....

Corona Anatine: indeed but the theist is trapped by their own arguemtn

Corona Anatine: that 'god' is unknown and unknowable etec etc

herman Bergson: It was Bertrand Russell who already said in Problems of Philosophy

Jakey Fitchbutt: thank you for the chart :)

herman Bergson: that the goal of philosophy to learn to live with uncertainty

herman Bergson: But people get pretty nervous now and then when you question their certainties :-)

Daruma Hermine Boa: Sometimes the problem is, the scientist are not really open minded. Most of them are money driven

Marco Visage: Science (if done properly and well) can only comment on what is scientifically verifiable. All else is just not within the realm of explainable science. A scientist can't say with certainty something does not exist but they could perhaps say something probably does not exist based on our current scientific knowledge

Corona Anatine: that a very sweeping statement

Daruma Hermine Boa: Money to get for their projects and not so interested in searching for real answers

herman Bergson: But it is a bit odd to spend time on debating what NOT exists...

Jakey Fitchbutt: I don't agree that the position with the most evidence must be true. Evidence is corrupted constantly by the researcher's desired outcome, government/religious preasure, or even by ignorance of other possibilities

herman Bergson: or can not be proven to exist

Chantal is offline.

herman Bergson: Ahhh I waited for that observation Jakey...

herman Bergson: Indeed..evidence is a nice word....

herman Bergson: But we have not yet really defined where it stands for

Corona Anatine: oh many scientists would prefer no time at all debating the non existant but those who do force the issue

herman Bergson: observable, verifiable...

Daruma Hermine Boa: true jakey

Marco Visage: Shall we say evidence must be based reliably on our senses to begin with?

Janette Shim is offline.

Corona Anatine: currupted evidence is not evidence then

herman Bergson: But Jackey this is in fact not a philosophical argument in the debat...

Jakey Fitchbutt: because our senses are always right?

Daruma Hermine Boa: are they?

Corona Anatine: for things are senses can experience yes

Max Chatnoir is online.

Daruma Hermine Boa: which sense on which level?

herman Bergson: No I mean the fact that evidence is corrupted for instance...

Daruma Hermine Boa: we do not use half of our senses we could use

Corona Anatine: but some of the leading edge of physics and others sciences concernes things that we can have no direct experience of

herman Bergson: When we speak of evidence we actually pose a epistemological question....

Jakey Fitchbutt: this is going to go down a different road, about the millions of things our eyes cannot actually see.. so back to the debate :D

herman Bergson: Evidence is what we can KNOW

Corona Anatine: such as quarks and extra solar planets

Marco Visage: Agreed, Fitch

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Daruma Hermine Boa: and mind can not think;-)

Bejiita Imako: science is complex indeed,

Daruma Hermine Boa: and so we are

Daruma Hermine Boa: its all about it

herman Bergson: There is a difference between knowledge and belief....

Daruma Hermine Boa: that belongs together

Bejiita Imako: but id say true science is all about known and proven facts

Daruma Hermine Boa: u can not separate that

herman Bergson: And that is what we first have to clarify...

Corona Anatine: science is not complex at al - it just that results of it that are

Bejiita Imako: we know it is like this because we have observed it

Daruma Hermine Boa: peeps are what they believe

Daruma Hermine Boa: the world is what humans believe

Corona Anatine: not so

Bejiita Imako: then its scientifically true sort of, if we have not misinterpreted what we have observed that is

Marco Visage: I am curious as to what knowledge a theist or even an atheist has to support their view, regardless of their beliefs

Corona Anatine: the world is what it is regardless of what humans believe

herman Bergson: Yes Marco.....that is really a question...

herman Bergson: But to say that we just are what we believe is absolute relativism...an epistemological position

Jakey Fitchbutt: I would define evidence as observable, and comparable to something prerecorded so we can verify it is similar or different

Daruma Hermine Boa: the world is, what we see. we struggle and try to find out what we really see. that is science

Corona Anatine: asuming for the sake of argument that 'god' does not exist in the real world- then no amount of belief will make it true

Bejiita Imako: exactly

Marco Visage: Yes, so belief is not evidence?

Corona Anatine: no totally not

Daruma Hermine Boa: so for me there is never a real proof of anything, only a strep to the next level

Marco Visage: (not playing devil's advocate, only a question)

herman Bergson: But what is the REAL world, Corona...

Jakey Fitchbutt: careful..

Corona Anatine: that is a moot point Herman

Corona Anatine: but

Max Chatnoir: Reality is what doesn't go away if you stop believing in it.

Corona Anatine: a real world does exist at soem level

herman Bergson: Kant would say that we even can not know Das Ding an Sich.....reality as such....only how it appears to us

Corona Anatine: whether we can know it or not

Daruma Hermine Boa: yo herman, schön gesagt;-)

herman Bergson: A Materialist would say that indeed Corona...

Jakey Fitchbutt wonders if I can logout of Reality, do a Clean Install, and start over

CB Axel: LOL

Daruma Hermine Boa: lol Jakey

Bejiita Imako: hahah

CB Axel: People who believe in reincarnation say you can, Jakey.

herman Bergson: If you believe in Reincarnation you can Jakey ^_^

Daruma Hermine Boa: who knows...

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

CB Axel: ^5, herman

herman Bergson: Well said CB :-)))

Corona Anatine: or anyone - the 'true reality ' might not be material

Marco Visage: So from a materialist perspective, reality is as it is regardless of what we think

herman Bergson: I would say, yes Marco

Corona Anatine: but it is external to us and what we believe [or even possibly can ever know]

herman Bergson: That we see it differently than a dog or a bat does, doesn’t change anything

Corona Anatine: exactly Herman

Daruma Hermine Boa: i think it changes that there is no real reality^^^

Marco Visage: However, perhaps a theist's experience of their beliefs has a physical effect on them (chemically in the brain)

herman Bergson: The relation brain - belief is a whole chapter on its own:-)

Daruma Hermine Boa: not only belief also your own world. your learnings etc

Daruma Hermine Boa: your surrounding

Daruma Hermine Boa: waht u read

Corona Anatine: but there is a 'real ' reality of some form - even if its just disembodied thoughts floating in 'nothing

Daruma Hermine Boa: which friends u have tec

herman Bergson: For now, our main question is: what is legitimate evidence....

Daruma Hermine Boa: °°°°

Marco Visage: Ahh

.: Beertje :.: can there be evidence?

Daruma Hermine Boa: nö

Daruma Hermine Boa: in my world

herman Bergson: the judge in court believes so, Beertje...:-)

.: Beertje :.: but we are not in court here

Daruma Hermine Boa: the court... has absolutely no evidence. believe me

Corona Anatine: there prob can be legit evidence - tho it might require a paradigm shift to se it as legit

herman Bergson: No, but yet we have to have a judgement about the world around us,.....and thence look for evidence to support our judgements

Daruma Hermine Boa: only rules

Marco Visage: Perhaps in some theist experiences or practices there is a way to record a significant effect, a sense of something greater. Could that be explored and found as evidence?

herman Bergson: They have done that Marco.....

herman Bergson: Do a search on the "God helm"

Marco Visage: ah yes, I think I read about that

herman Bergson: Which at least shows that there is evidence ..observable and verfiable of what are called "religious" experiences.....

Jakey Fitchbutt: everything I have to add now is speculation, which wouldn't be of much use :P

herman Bergson: but which are in fact normal brain processes

Jakey Fitchbutt: so I thank you for another insightful lecture Herman. Be well everyone :)

Bejiita Imako: bye Jakey

.: Beertje :.: night Jakey

Marco Visage: But can that be used as evidence, brain processes?

herman Bergson: Bye Jakey

Corona Anatine: hmm this is getting to be an ohter kleine bottle arguement

Daruma Hermine Boa: so fast gone..

Corona Anatine: with the answer on the other side of the 1D surface

herman Bergson: Well, I guess that in the next lecture we should have acloser look at the epistemological issues regarding evidence...

Daruma Hermine Boa: can be;-)

Marco Visage: It seems a bit muddled after this meeting

Max Chatnoir: Is "next" on Thursday or next tuesday?

herman Bergson: Next means "Thursday", Max

Max Chatnoir: Thanks.  Sorry I was late.  Got into a faculty discussion.

Daruma Hermine Boa: no Marco. for me its not muddled

Corona Anatine: is their good evidence for it being Thursday ?

.: Beertje :.: thank you Herman, have a goodnight

herman Bergson: It happens :-)

Corona Anatine: [ that was meant to be humour]

herman Bergson: Then, may I thank you all again for your participation....

Marco Visage: lol Corona

Marco Visage: I saw the humor there

CB Axel: I laughed, Corona. °͜°

Max Chatnoir: You will post the beginning of this on your blog?

herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

Daruma Hermine Boa: herman, it was interesting as every week. thank you very much for it