576: Has life meaning without a god?

Many religious thinkers hold that for our lives to be meaningful we need to be immortal in some way, or else our lives would be just as meaningless as those of other animals. 

.

According to this line of thought, god soon comes into the equation, as only god is capable of offering us immortality. The existence of god, then, is a logically necessary condition for a meaningful human life.

.

Left aside that this god probably is this specific Christian god, the more I study this subject the more I begin to wonder about religion as some weird product of our brain.

.

What trick is the brain playing on us? Where does this need for the supernatural come from?

.

In my previous lecture I said: If we take the Cro-Magnon as the first early modern humans (early Homo sapiens sapiens) of the European Upper Paleolithic we arrive in 43.000 years B.C.

.

So this was a human being with liked to live, loved the next day, his partner, his  children. He must have had a sense of meaning for his existence.

.

Maybe he believed in supernatural phenomena or beings, who connected with his life, but through history we have seen many gods come and go.

.

And mankind  lived on, evolved, increased its knowledge about reality. How can you live on when you don’t see any meaning or purpose in your life?

.

Maybe it makes sense to quote Daniel Dennett from his “Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon.” (2006) - quote:

.

Not all scientists and philosophers are atheists, and many who are believers declare that their idea of God can live in peaceful coexistence with, or even find support from, the Darwinian framework of ideas.

.

 Theirs is not an anthropomorphic Handicrafter God, but still a God worthy of worship in their eyes, capable of giving consolation and meaning to their lives. 

.

Others ground their highest concerns in entirely secular philosophies, views of the meaning of life that stave off despair without the aid of any concept of a Supreme Being—other than the Universe itself. 

.

Something is sacred to these thinkers, but they do not call it God; they call it, perhaps, Life, or Love, or Goodness, or Intelligence, or Beauty, or Humanity.

.

What both groups share, in spite of the differences in their deepest creeds, is a conviction that life does have meaning, that goodness matters.

.

But can any version of this attitude of wonder and purpose be sustained in the face of Darwinism?

.

From the outset, there have been those who thought they saw Darwin letting the worst possible cat out of the bag: nihilism. 

.

They thought that if Darwin was right, the implication would be that nothing could be sacred. To put it bluntly, nothing could have any point. (…)

.

There really were large gaps in his theory that have only recently begun to be properly filled in. The biggest gap looks almost comical in retrospect. 

.

In all his brilliant musings, Darwin never hit upon the central concept, without which the theory of evolution is hopeless: the concept of a GENE. - end quote

.

Long ago we were taught to believe that the earth  and thus man is the center of the universe. In 1543 Copernicus changed that picture.

.

The Christian religion was shocked and started a counterattack, but in spite of the drama of that epic confrontation, 

.

the idea that our planet is not the center of creation has sat rather lightly in people's minds. Every schoolchild today accepts this as the matter of fact it is, without tears or terror. 

.

The fundamental core of contemporary Darwinism, the theory of DNA-based reproduction and evolution, is now beyond dispute among scientists. 

.

To quote Dennett again: “In a single stroke, the idea of evolution by natural selection unifies the realm of life, 

.

meaning, and purpose with the realm of space and time, cause and effect, mechanism and physical law. “

.

Thank you… the floor is yours :-)

.

The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: I think my life would only cease to have meaning if it became totally predictable.  One of the things about Darwinian theory was that it proposed that life could never be predictable.  Who could have invented giraffes?  Water bears?

herman Bergson: YEs Max....that is a point....

herman Bergson: if god is all knowing...he would know the cours eof my life in advance....so in fact Iit would be deterministic

herman Bergson: Ig god knows my next move..what freedom do I have?

Areyn Laurasia: would it matter? :)

Max Chatnoir: Well, if God were only an observer and saw all points of time, then you would still have choice, just not foreknowledge.

herman Bergson: yes...for if he knows in advance what I gonna do, you can not make me responsible for my actions....

herman Bergson: there is no free will or choice then

Bejiita Imako: ah

herman Bergson: If god is only an observer he doesn’t know everything...is not all knowing...

Areyn Laurasia: that's if there's a god..

herman Bergson: But they claim...he is :-)

herman Bergson: yes of course Areyn....

herman Bergson: At least in the mind of many people there is one

Bejiita Imako: indeed

Max Chatnoir: Well, I'm not making an argument for the existence of God, just thinking that maybe he can't control everything.

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): The infinite power...the source of everythiing.....the alfa and omega.....for centuries ....there were some people around in every nation at like every age talking about that one creator.......Rite.....so i have always believed in God.....when i was three i was in a spaceship with God ! Well the man in the spaceship told me he was....i cann never forget that dream

Areyn Laurasia: unless there are parallel universes.. then all our choices would be but one possibility among many.. and all would hold true at some point

Max Chatnoir: But dreaming up properties for somebody who doesn't exist seems a little odd...

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): lol

herman Bergson: Yes MAx...but mankind does it for centuries now....

herman Bergson: I really dont understand why myself

Max Chatnoir: If we have to invent a God, then it can't just be somebody just like us.

herman Bergson: The results are disastrous...when you look at the Arabic world of today for instance

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): why is it instilled in us.....in our very soul ..Even the ppl who doesn’t belive in a God during a disaster etc. feel the need to be protected

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): Herman u have a very good point there . The religions are the dilemma.

herman Bergson: The need to feel protected is just a normal biological response to a hostile environment

Max Chatnoir: Maybe we invented Gods to replace parents when we discovered that they aren't all powerful.

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): they should organize people more but it seems ..they cause more disorganization

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): disharmony

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): conflicts and chaos

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): yes chaos

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): and how that can be if religons only presenting God's love and peace

herman Bergson: Well....they tend to call their god "father" indeed Max...

herman Bergson: tho I'd prefer "mother"

Areyn Laurasia: That's something I've never considered before, Max. :)

Cain Levasseur: i remember the exact moment i stop believing in god.. i felt unprotected and alone

herman Bergson: Interesting Cain...

herman Bergson: as if you lost a parent?

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): Cain u have got a point

Cain Levasseur: right, just like that

herman Bergson: well...we have the expression that we are CHILDREN of god...

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): i can never deny that there is a creator but it seems the religions won'T be able to get to me anymore.....

Max Chatnoir: We seem to expect that God is in the role of a parent, creates a world for us, tells us how to behave, protects us from harmful situations...

herman Bergson: It means that the atheist has to be a self supporting individual and no longer a child, I guess

CB Axel: The actress Julia Sweeney did a one-woman show called "Letting Go Of God" where she described that same feeling, Cain.

herman Bergson: Yes..good observations...

herman Bergson: And MAx....what is the meaning of life....the purpose.....to be a good child...

Max Chatnoir: Is that on line anywhere, CB?  It sounds interesting.

herman Bergson: behave....

Max Chatnoir: To discover the world and learn more about it.

CB Axel: I'm not sure, Max. I have it on DVD.

herman Bergson: yes indeed...

Areyn Laurasia: isn't it enough to be just human?

herman Bergson: I'd say 'yes' Areyn :-)

Cain Levasseur: we are full of fears, and god its a protection against those fears, i think its a tool, an evolutionary tool like herman exposed on this lecture

Max Chatnoir: enough to rise to the responsibility of managing our own brains.  They are pretty special.

Cain Levasseur: fear to death, fear to not being anymore, fear of being harmed, fear of being crazy, etc.

herman Bergson: Yes Cain.....

herman Bergson: it is a means to explain the unexplicable....

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): mind control ?

herman Bergson: all cultures use it...

Cain Levasseur: right, when we where primitive societys, we didnt have the knowledge we have today, so the idea of god replaced those ignorance

herman Bergson: But Our Western culture has dropped that line of thinking and uses science as a way to explain reality

Max Chatnoir: A tool -- that's an interesting idea.

Bejiita Imako: ah

herman Bergson: A tool yes Max....

CB Axel: I'm beginning to think that there is a god and that we don't exist. We're just a bad dream god is having. ;)

Cain Levasseur: right herman thats what i think, i don’t know if "all" western culture, but some people

herman Bergson: which brings to me the article about the pragmatic acceptance orf religion....

Max Chatnoir: We hae both big brains and big mouths, so to speak, so that we can spread our ideas way beyond ourselves, and some ideas are harmful.

herman Bergson: yes..very harmful as todays politics show....

Bejiita Imako: ok

Max Chatnoir: Like that idiotic law in Indiana.  I can't BELIEVE that that ever passed!

herman Bergson: What was that Max?

Areyn Laurasia: The governor is going to "fix" it right to reduce possible discrimination?

Max Chatnoir: "protection of religious freedom" or something like that that makes it legal not to serve gay people if you find them offensive.

herman Bergson: Ahhh we ahd the same problem in the Netherlands....

Bejiita Imako: eeeh ok

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): that's against human rights !!!!!

Max Chatnoir: I think we need a "conservation of knowledge" addendum that says you can't learn anything that wasn't known 4004 years ago.

herman Bergson: Municipal officials who refused to marry gay people because of their religious beliefs...

Max Chatnoir: And a "family values" addendum that says you have to hate all the people your relatives hate.

Max Chatnoir: You have to be carefully taught.  Remember that song?

Bejiita Imako: its horrible indeed

CB Axel: Yes. From South Pacific

Areyn Laurasia: and here you have people leaving the church because the church agrees with equal rights :)

Max Chatnoir: Maybe that would make it obvious how NUTTY the first one is!  But I think that the business community might take care of it.

Bejiita Imako: i mean we live in 2015, not 1500

Bejiita Imako: but those religious muffs seem not to get it

herman Bergson: Well..sound we don't need a religion to tell each other about the meaning and purpose of life :-)

Max Chatnoir: LOL!

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): LOL people are always the same. times don't change it. Egos never change

Bejiita Imako: ehee

herman Bergson: Ok...let's continue our search for meaning and purpose in life without religion next Thursday :-))

herman Bergson: Thank you all for this good discussion....

herman Bergson: Class dismissed....... ^_^

Lizzy Pleides: thank you herman

Max Chatnoir: Maundy Thursday.  :-)

CB Axel: Thank you, herman.

Areyn Laurasia: Thanks :)

Bejiita Imako: nice again Herman

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy):  ('*•.¸•*• Ťĥ∆ⓝⓀ  ΫΘ☋ •*•¸.•*´)

Sparkle Kingston (shaycy): Herman well done

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

herman Bergson: Maundy Thursday..what is that, Max?

bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman & class!

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you again Herman

Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.

CB Axel: Maundy Thursday, huh? Should we wash herman's feet?

Areyn Laurasia: now I'm curious about the philosophy of Blender.. XD

575: Can there ever be morality without religion?

The Barna Group is a Christian polling organization set up to ask questions that would interest the Christian community by showing beliefs or trends within the United States.

.

Now listen to what this group discovered! 

.

The Barna Group found that atheists and agnostics in America were more likely, than theists in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: 

.

illegal drug use; excessive drinking; sexual relationships outside of marriage; abortion; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; 

.

obscene language; gambling; pornography and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in homosexuality/bisexuality.

.

This I found on conservapedia.com under the lemma “Atheism and morality”

.

Do you want more? ^_^ 

Atheism and pornography , Atheism and child pornography, Evolutionary belief and sexual immorality. Abortion and atheism, Atheism and rape, 

.

Atheism and profanity, Atheism and sexually transmitted diseases, Atheism and homosexuality, Atheism and sadism. Atheism, polyamory and other immoral relationships, 

.

Atheism and hedonism, Atheism and bestiality, Sexual immorality and Sweden, Atheism and alcoholism, Atheism, alcoholism and anger, Atheism and drug addiction, 

.

Atheist hypocrisy, Atheism and mass murder, Irreligion/religion and war/peace, Militant atheism, Irreligion and domestic violence, 

.

Secular Europe and domestic violence, Sweden and domestic violence, Atheism and sadism, Atheist bullying….. and so on and so on.

.

Atheism eventually will turn the world into a Sodom and Gomorra, when you page through this list. The verbal aggression against atheism regarding this subject is amazing.

.

The presumptuous attitude of believers in a god (and in this debate it is mainly the christian god), who think that they are the inventors of morality, is astonishing.

.

Take this myth: Without God, atheists have no reason to behave morally. What's the point of being moral if there is no God?

.

The fist thing that may strike you here is the implicit assumption, that god creates morality in man and morality is doing god’s will for a reason.

.

Albert Einstein made the point well in his “Ideas and Opinions” (1954): “A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; 

.

no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”

.

Actually, I don’t understand the meaning of this belief, that morality can only exist within the context of religion. Why put people energy in such a debate?

.

To begin with: Of course, the history of philosophy is full of nontheistic systems of morality. I can name just a few of the more influential ones: Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics (334 B.C), 

.

Immanuel Kant’s Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals (785), Arthur Schopenhauer’s On the Basis of Morality (1860), 

.

John Stuart Mill’s Utilitarianism (1863), Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s Social Contract (1762), Henry Sidgwick’s The Methods of Ethics (1874) – and there are so many others that it is impossible to list them

.

But apart of all these nice philosophers there is reality, the facts of history, biology and evolution. To begin with, how can social animals survive in their communities when they lack a sense of rules and order.

.

In that respect I’d like to remind you of the experiments of Frans de Waal and have a look again at his presentation. Just use the picture on the wall to my left.

.

But there is more. If we take the Cro-Magnon as the first early modern humans (early Homo sapiens sapiens) of the European Upper Paleolithic we arrive in 43.000 years B.C.

.

Now, who was here first? God or the Cro-Magnon, who was able to live a social life, which means that he must have had an understanding of what to do and what not to do in the group.

.

In other words, this homo sapiens must have had an insight in what was right and what was wrong long before a monotheistic religion was invented.

.

And then, when according to my god I am entitled to murder every person, who does not believe in him and throw every homosexual from the highest building,

.

what  kind of morality is that? Defintely NOT my sense of morality!

.

Thank you again….. the floor is yours… ^_^

The Discussion

Bejiita Imako: indeed not mine either

herman Bergson: Exactly Bejiita

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): CNN is presenting some stuff on atheism in america

herman Bergson: ahhh...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): please ignore that website

Bejiita Imako: religion dont create morale, the opposite is true, used as excuse to kill and cause misery to people who dont "fit in"

herman Bergson: why that Gemma?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): looks like the real right wing conservative groups who believe in the literal translation of the bible

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): adn is trying to portray the USA as a Christian country

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are a lot of them I'm Sorry! to say

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but

herman Bergson: The biggest producer of porn?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): freedom of speach in usa allows that

Bejiita Imako: dual morale for sure

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): might lliek to check this out

herman Bergson: I dont think it is a nice qualification...to be a christian country...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): http://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/03/23/ctn-sot-phillips-atheism-stigma.cnn

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but they do

herman Bergson: if you take into account the worldwide sexual child abuse by christian priests

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): fortunately the constitution allows separation of church and state

herman Bergson: child abuse

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): mandates it

herman Bergson: that is an interesting subject this separation....

Bejiita Imako: hmm

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and also allows freedom of religion

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): prohibiting establishment of a state church

Bejiita Imako: still, to have as mantra in US that "in god we trust" tells a bit

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

herman Bergson: yes but in the US you have democrats and republicans...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

herman Bergson: non religious parties...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): many of the republicans are avid believers

Bejiita Imako: yes but majority still religious in some way i guess of the individuals

herman Bergson: But in th Netherlands you have Christian democrats, Protestant parties, liberal paries....socialist parties

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true

Bejiita Imako: and thus it spills over and causes issues

herman Bergson: that is what I mean....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): many democrats are too just not nutty about it

herman Bergson: You never know whom you are dealing with when you deal with a repiblican...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

Bejiita Imako: ah

herman Bergson: but inthe Netherlands at least you know...ok..he is a believer...christian democrat...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the first guy to say he is running for president as a republican is a real firm beliver

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): son of a minister who believes in the literal interp of the bible

herman Bergson: yes Ted Cruz....scary person....sick ideas

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he is

Bejiita Imako: what that guy said about killing homosexuals before was one of the most awful things i ve heard

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): scary is mild

Bejiita Imako: since it s agaist gods will

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he wont go far

Bejiita Imako: he stated

Bejiita Imako: hope so

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): me too

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed

Bejiita Imako: shudders

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are still moderate republicans

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ahha max

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): *~*☟☹☟*~* Hey, Welcome back! *~*☟☹☟*~*

herman Bergson: that Ted Cruz is a danger to mankind...

Bejiita Imako: wb max

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i agree

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but very very smart

Bejiita Imako: and for one thing, im bisexual myself and i see no strange in that

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): brilliant in some ways

Max Chatnoir: Sorry, I had a long phone call from a student's mother.

Bejiita Imako: its more common then people want to believe

Bejiita Imako: no strange thing at all

herman Bergson: Bejiita...what in the world makes the sexual inclinations of a person so interesting...???

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): actually the father of ted is more interesting

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Max Chatnoir: How so?

Bejiita Imako: i wonder that too

Bejiita Imako: i mean wht does it mean what sexuality a person have really? i dont get it

Bejiita Imako: make love not war i say

Bejiita Imako: and world would be all peaceful

herman Bergson: me neither....but when you study the history of it, you'll see that it always has been some kind of political issue...

Bejiita Imako: tired of all damned wars all over

herman Bergson: and that is because the government is related to religious ideas...

herman Bergson: Like Dutch politics was long time dominated by christian parties

herman Bergson: But to say it in a nutshell

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): most governments were at one time anyway

herman Bergson: We were here earlier than the monotheistic religion and we were able to build a society...

Max Chatnoir: Nice point!

herman Bergson: so the idea that you need a god for morality....nuts

herman Bergson: You need man for morality

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you need common sense too

herman Bergson: and as I mentioned in my lecture...even primates have a sense of fairness for instance

Bejiita Imako: indeed, we had morale before religion

herman Bergson: common sense should be in the head of man :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes the monkeys get it

Bejiita Imako: we dont need religion, it only cause suffering and unfairness

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not always the case Herman:)

Bejiita Imako: at least many religions do

herman Bergson: true ^_^

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know a lot of lunatics

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but it is also unfair to blame religion and those who believe for all ills too

Bejiita Imako: this IS bastards would blow p the planet if they could, they still only get to meet their god right?

Bejiita Imako: thats how suicide bombers think and i bet these are same if not worse

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some believe that yes

Bejiita Imako: a threat to the entire earth

Max Chatnoir: Figuring out what makes more sense seems more productive than figuring out which god is the "real" one

herman Bergson: it is not a matter of blaming anyone, I would say, Gemma...

herman Bergson: that is not the point...

herman Bergson: what does religion to society is the big question

herman Bergson: why is there religion?

herman Bergson: What does it add?

Max Chatnoir: But I think it is hard for people not to hear that question as "What good is MY religion."

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some do

herman Bergson: It cuases and caused some nasty things....

herman Bergson: but that did communism too...or fascism...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you know that many get their morality from their religious belief

Max Chatnoir: so it becomes a personal challenge rather than a social question.

Bejiita Imako: hmm

herman Bergson: If you assume that religion is NOT the real source of morality, people who base their morality on religion are not well informed

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think the Pope would disagree with you

Max Chatnoir: Well, I think that various moral systems have been integrated into religious tradition, like the 10 commandments.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and he is very well informed

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

herman Bergson: but that leads to another myth about atheist: The atheist has no purpose or meaning in life...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is definitely a myth

Bejiita Imako: I have a purpose, that is to feel good, make my friends happy and find more higgs bosons once LHC is fixed

herman Bergson: I cnat discuss this with the Pope Gemma...he is a believer....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Two weeks Bejiita...then all is fixed :-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): really??

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): only 2 weeks more?

Bejiita Imako: aaa i got some report that hopefully they didnt needed to open the magnet itself but could maybee flysh it uut

herman Bergson: was in my newspaer today :-))

Bejiita Imako: flush

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

Max Chatnoir: I don't know how much of the Code of Hammurabi is repeated in the 10 commandments.

Bejiita Imako: increase speed and flow direction of helium pumps

Bejiita Imako: http://home.web.cern.ch/about/updates/2015/03/pictures-x-rays-probe-lhc-cause-short-circuit

Bejiita Imako: direct report from CERN

Bejiita Imako: with pictureds

herman Bergson: I dont know either Max, but some of the 10 commandments are rather common sense ideas about how to keep peace in a society

Bejiita Imako: ok

Max Chatnoir: Yes.

herman Bergson: Stay away from my woman, don’t murder, dont steal...be kind to each other

herman Bergson: Oh,,I saw an interview with such a christian republican

Max Chatnoir: don't tell lies about other people, etc.

herman Bergson: who say that the ten commandments should be the law....

Max Chatnoir: NONONONO

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is one of them

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): scary

Max Chatnoir: But they already ARE, pretty much, aren't they?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well it is basically

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

herman Bergson: then the interviewer asked him...can you tell us the ten comamndments....which are they...

herman Bergson: He couldnt....:-))))

Bejiita Imako: hmm religion andlaw never mix

herman Bergson: knew two or three only :-)

Max Chatnoir: I don't think there is anything about honoring your parents in the constitution, or the Sabbath, or who God is, but the rest of it is there.

Max Chatnoir: Well, maybe not adultery -- I guess that was mostly state laws.

herman Bergson: Inmost constitutions I guess...and in the Human Rights Treaty....

Max Chatnoir: and I think that was part of regarding women as property.

herman Bergson: But these ten commandments were not invented by some god....

herman Bergson: homo sapiens did it himself...43.000 years ago

Max Chatnoir: No, they were invented by some Human who wanted God's imprimatur.

Bejiita Imako: very true

herman Bergson: Not even that, I'd say, Max....

Max Chatnoir: appeal to authority.

Bejiita Imako: fairy tales becoming law sort of

Bejiita Imako: THAT is not good for sure!

Bejiita Imako: laws should be stated from facts and reality

herman Bergson: Anyway...Iguess we made our point again today ^_^

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): guess so

Bejiita Imako: guess so

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): keep an eye on ted cruz

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will be interesting

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and scary

Bejiita Imako: when LHC fire up ill turn him to higgs bosons

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): until he gets out

herman Bergson: We were first with our morality...god cam 41.000 years later and stole the price :-))

Max Chatnoir: He is prone to do or say something stupid, so maybe the republicans will shut him down.

herman Bergson: Is becaus eour morality wasn't copyright!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed, that guy seem totally nuts!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but many of them will be appealing to the same audience

Bejiita Imako: lock him into the asylum

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so will be interesting

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he really is not totally nuts tho be

herman Bergson: if you talk about Ted Cruz...I regard him as a true and real danger to world peace

Bejiita Imako: i guess religion got the best of him

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just believes teh way he believes

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i do to herman

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): absolutely

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is why i say keep an eye on him

herman Bergson: and I mean it....

Max Chatnoir: But I agree he is scary.  I never thought that the GW Bush would get reelected.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know!!!!!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and now his brother is in the mix

herman Bergson: Bush was close to that way of thinking....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): tho a totally different type

Bejiita Imako: bush, the war started

Bejiita Imako: starter

herman Bergson: fortunately yes

Bejiita Imako: ok

Max Chatnoir: I have to ask how committee Cruz is to his beliefs since he bought in on Obamacare after badmouthing it for months.

Max Chatnoir: how committed

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he has to

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): by law

Max Chatnoir: So I don't know if he is really nuts or if he is just manipulating the nut fringe.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so he will

Bejiita Imako: ok

Max Chatnoir: Well, he has to have insurance, but he didn't have to get it that way.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is the only way

herman Bergson: He is manipulating....

herman Bergson: all smart politicians do

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): grassly put an amendment in some law that all the senators and reps must use that health care act to have insurance

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): last year

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and it is now the law

herman Bergson: for your health.....Class dismissed ^_^

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they can get the subsidy to pay for it from the govt because of their positions

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Bejiita Imako: cu nexy time

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): back to regular time next week

Max Chatnoir: Oh, Gemma, I just noticed you are back.  Good to see you.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): remember

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ty

574: Religion still is a modern political tool

Today not exactly a philosophical lecture, but more a lecture on what is going on right now in the world, which scares the hell out of an atheist, I assume.

.

And not only an atheist, but everyone who has some doubts about the benefits of religions.

.

The first thing I’d like to mention is what I read in my newspaper this morning. It was a report of the presentation of the first official candidate for presidency in the United States.

.

It was Ted Cruz, a right wing Republican from Texas. He is 44 and was elected for the Senate in 2012. And as the article says:”He immediately stood out by his aggressive style.”

.

When you combine this with what he said: ”Our rights are not from man but from God Almighty.”, you can imagine,

.

that I felt a little relieved, when I read: “As an exponent of radical right Cruz is not currently considered a major contender.”

.

But there is another example, where religion is used for political goals. China and India, the two superpowers of Asia, are contending for influence in the region. 

.

They are not trying to gain this influence by showing off with intimidating military power, but by use of the soft force of religion.

.

So both countries try through promotion of their Buddhist heritage to win allies in the predominantly Buddhist countries in East and Southeast Asia.

.

The lndian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is known as a very religious Hindu. You may wonder why he is willing to promote Buddhism and not his own Hinduism.

.

There are two explanations. For many Hindus Buddha is an avatar of the god Vishnu, which makes him a member of the Hindu pantheon. 

.

Modi is a follower of a kind of Hinduism, that easily incorporates aspects of other religions, except christianity and islam.

.

The second explanation is that Hinduism is too much India, could even be regarded as Indian imperialism, where Buddhism is the more widespread religion in the region.

.

The method is to pay attention to Buddhism at every possible occasion to imprint the ideas upon the public, 

.

like in Russia the public gets to watch Putin every day on TV. General marketing techniques, I would say.

.

In 28 years Modi is the first prime minister of India who recently visited Sri Lanka again. And what does he do? 

.

He pays  a visit to Anuradhapura. the most important Buddhist pilgrimage on the island.

.

The attention to Buddhism is a part India's diplomatic strategy since about four years , and thus it all stems already from before Modi.

.

However, it is not an originally Indian idea. It was a reaction to policies of China. Beijing, that has a rich Buddhist past has started about ten years ago,

.

by loaning religious objects to countries in the region for exhibitions and organizing international conferences on Buddhist themes.

.

One problem for China is the Dalai Lama, the official spiritual leader of Buddhism and exiled from Tibet to India. And as we know, Tibet is a big political problem for Beijing.

.

One of the problems is the next Dalai Lama, for he has to be a reincarnation of the present one. But the present one has said on many occasions, that he is not willing to reincarnate in China.

.

And most peculiar is, that the atheist communist party wants to direct this proces of reincarnation. Chinese bureaucrats justify this by referring to historical traditions.

.

In 1799 the Chinese emperor Qianlong set the rules for reincarnation in consultation with the Tibetan ruler. When there is more than one candidate, the choice is determined by lot.

.

Slips of paper with the names on it were dropped in a golden urn under supervision of a government official. Then the name picked from the urn was the reincarnation of the previous Lama.

.

And it now happens to be, that such a golden urn exists in the Yonghegong temple in Beijing. This temple is the biggest Tibetan temple outside Tibet.

.

In 2007 there even seem to have been created legislation to specify the juridical procedures regarding reincarnation.

.

In case of reincarnation on village temple level you need approval of the municipal Bureau of Religious Affairs.

.

It is 2015. The separation of church and state was declared in 1795 in The Netherlands, which was then named the Batavian Republic.

.

And while Allah still rules in the Arabic world, is Buddha promoted in the China - India region and is god offered a job in the US, if he votes for Ted Cruz.

.

Thank you….. the floor is yours… ^_^

The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: legislating reincarnation seems quite strange.

herman Bergson: Such a weird story indeed Max....

Bejiita Imako: hmm

Max Chatnoir: It's like predicting who your kid will be.

CB Axel: I heard the Dali Lama is thinking of not reincarnating right away just to show up China.

Max Chatnoir: Although I guess that is part of the Jesus story.

herman Bergson: As it is weird that a Dalai LAma tells us that he doesn’t want to reincarnate in China...

Max Chatnoir: He can't reincarnate while he is alive, can he?

CB Axel: No, but apparently he doesn't have to come back immediately.

Max Chatnoir: And how does that work if he picks a successor?

herman Bergson: noono...he has to die for that :-)

Max Chatnoir: Oh, maybe it's after he dies that the candidates are chosen?

CB Axel: He doesn't pick a successor.

CB Axel: Yes.

herman Bergson: Yes...

herman Bergson: the procedure is like this...

Max Chatnoir: OK, I see.  So he can't solve the problem by dying without an heir.

herman Bergson: after his death monks go searching for a child...a special child....

CB Axel: He's celebate, I believe.

herman Bergson: and for some reason they KNOW which child is the reincarnation...

Max Chatnoir: I think so.

Bejiita Imako: ah

Max Chatnoir: So somebody gets to be regent while the kid grows up.

Max Chatnoir: well, clearly it's Ted Cruz!

herman Bergson: I have no knowledge of the details ...

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Max

herman Bergson: Oh my....! Max

CB Axel: He's not a ruler. He's just a priest, so he's taken to be raised by monks, if I remember correctly.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor child...

Bejiita Imako: ehehe

herman Bergson: yes I think so too CB...

Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed i d not want to be selected like that just because

Max Chatnoir: true.  I guess the Dalai Lama is more of a role model than a dictator.

Bejiita Imako: might be

herman Bergson: in a way it is a constructed situation....prefab...:-)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): You are save bejiita I suppose you are not a child anymore...

CB Axel: Anyway, people are using religion to sway our votes.

herman Bergson: The Dalai Lama has no political role at all....

Bejiita Imako: he is like the king in Sweden

herman Bergson: he is something like the pope in roman catholic church is

Bejiita Imako: just a commercial figure

CB Axel: And it's not just atheists that need to worry. It's anyone who doesn't subscribe to the ruling religion.

CB Axel: Good analogy, herman.

herman Bergson: Indeed CB...

Bejiita Imako: ah

Max Chatnoir: Can the Dalai Lama speak ex cathedra, like the pope?

herman Bergson: Yes ..he often does

herman Bergson: And then a lot of people think that it is very special what he says...:-)

Max Chatnoir: No kidding!  So he can sort of set policy?

herman Bergson: Oh yes...

herman Bergson: As an exile from Tibet....he has a political connotation...

Max Chatnoir: But if he started spouting actual evil, what would happen?

CB Axel: I follow the Dalai Lama and the Pope on Twitter. °͜°

Max Chatnoir: The pope is on Twitter?

Max Chatnoir: No!

herman Bergson: Buddhism is a non violent religion Max....

Bejiita Imako: yes he is

CB Axel: Yes. Of course.

herman Bergson: He would never suggested the use of violence

Bejiita Imako: I like Buddhism indeed

CB Axel: Everyone who is anyone is on Twitter. LOL

Max Chatnoir: So the Dalai Lama can't go beyond the Buddhist traditions.

herman Bergson: Then I am nobody CB, for I am not on Twitter :-))

CB Axel: Max, since he's raised by Buddhist monks, the thought of violence is probably abhorrent to him.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either...

Max Chatnoir: I would hope so.

herman Bergson: He is the spiritual leader of Buddhism, Max, not a political figure

CB Axel: But because he's Tibetan, he has become political.

Max Chatnoir: Because he is in exile.

herman Bergson: That IS the tricky part indeed

herman Bergson: Btu as far as I know he never has interferred with the political issues between Tibet and China

CB Axel: I think all he's done is express hope that Tibet will become free from China.

herman Bergson: yes, could be

herman Bergson: But what I wanted to show you today was, how religion still is used by political powers to their ends

Max Chatnoir: I'm thinking of a Jeb Bush/ Ted Cruz ticket..... I can't imagine anything scarier, except maybe Cruz/ Palin.  But it's not impossible.

herman Bergson: Cruz/Palin.....OMG!

CB Axel: I can't understand why American Christians are so afraid of sharia law when they want to imposed their own version of it.

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Max Chatnoir: Which is what is so scary.

CB Axel: I'd love a Cruz/Palin ticket because I don't think they'd get elected.

Max Chatnoir: Well, you have a point.

herman Bergson: You know what the most rroublesome is MAx...

herman Bergson: The Americans get the president they vote for...

CB Axel: Oh, yes. We have the congress we deserve, I'm sad to say.

Max Chatnoir: I don't know what the democrats are going to do.  There are still a lot of people who hate Hilary because she is a Clinton and because she is a she.

CB Axel: I'd like to see a Clinton/Warren ticket. °͜°

Max Chatnoir: I can't see her getting elected.

Max Chatnoir: Ah, there is an interesting idea.

CB Axel: Double barreled estrogen!

herman Bergson: Women have been great presidents....

Max Chatnoir: But TWO women would really bring out the crazies.

herman Bergson: Whatever you may think about her but MAgret Thatcher was THE woman....

herman Bergson: and now in Germany..Angela Merkel rules the waves

herman Bergson: So I think it is time for the US after a non Caucasian president, that there should be a woman

CB Axel: I love when I hear people ask, "Is America ready for a woman president?"

herman Bergson: lol

CB Axel: Every other country in the world seems to be ready.

CB Axel: Why not the US?

herman Bergson: I would nt mind a second....

Max Chatnoir: Takes us a while to catch up.  After all, we're only a few hundred years old!  :-)

CB Axel: LOL

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a strong woman like Angela for the Us:)

Bejiita Imako: hehee

herman Bergson: YEs MAx...that may be the reason....you are still too young for so many tings :-)

herman Bergson: things

Max Chatnoir: Hope we don't suffer from infant mortality.

CB Axel: When I compare the US with Europe I always feel like we're the youngest kid on the playground.

CB Axel: But we're also the biggest, so we get to be the bully.

herman Bergson: with the biggest mouth then CB :-)

CB Axel: Too true. :(

herman Bergson: Not really....

CB Axel: Maybe it's about time we got beat up.

herman Bergson: I mean...you may question a lot of things....

Bejiita Imako: the problem is US seems to think they own the entire planet sometimes

herman Bergson: but in WWII the American young boys came to Europe..

CB Axel: And we won't let Europe forget it.

CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita.

CB Axel: I guess the problem is with me, though. I'm not cut out to be part of a super power.

CB Axel: I'd rather be part of a group of nations working together.

herman Bergson: Well...I think it is more a matter of money...

Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

CB Axel: I blame Star Trek for giving me that outlook.

Bejiita Imako: hehehe

Max Chatnoir: There is a brouhaha in Texas about putting the confederate flag on license plates.

herman Bergson: American capital is invested all over the world....and it has to be protected...

Max Chatnoir: Yes, Star Trek was a political educator for a generation.  :-)

Bejiita Imako: its good stuff indeed

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

CB Axel: Star Trek or American capital?

Max Chatnoir: Star Trek.

herman Bergson: Star Trek was revolutionary....a Woman as captain of Voyager!!

Max Chatnoir: Yes, the whole main series was wonderful.

herman Bergson: and then that pseudo spiritual nuthead of a chekotay as her first officer :-)

Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

Max Chatnoir: Well, he didn't do too much damage.

herman Bergson: No...Janeway was the boss :-))

Bejiita Imako: syre was ㋡

Bejiita Imako: sure

Bejiita Imako: ehehe

herman Bergson: I love her role in the series

Bejiita Imako: ah

Bejiita Imako: indeed

CB Axel: She was the Angela Merkle of the time.

Max Chatnoir: Janeway for president!

Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

herman Bergson: Indeed CB lol

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Max Chatnoir: Spock can be secretary of state.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Quite logical

CB Axel: We almost had Spock as president in the form of Al Gore.

Max Chatnoir: Yes, if the Supremes had stayed out it, we might have.

CB Axel: But can we get back to how religion is shaping politics?

Max Chatnoir: Yes, please.

herman Bergson smiles

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Well...number one is your Ted Cruz....

CB Axel: I'm getting fed up with people trying to tell me how to live my life based on a book of fairy tales.

Max Chatnoir: I think to some extent, politics is exploiting religion.

Max Chatnoir: The republicans have been sucking up to the religious right for decades, and I don't think it has done them a lot of good.

herman Bergson: definitely....that was the meaning of my lecture today

Max Chatnoir: The crazy people used to be democrats -- like George Wallace.

Bejiita Imako: religion + politics = BAD COMBINATION!

CB Axel: I'm still hoping Cruz gets eliminated for being born in Canada.

CB Axel: I want to see his birth certificate.

herman Bergson: Indeed bejiita :-)

CB Axel: I agree Bejiita.

Bejiita Imako: only outcome of a such combo is armageddon

Bejiita Imako: sort of

Max Chatnoir: I just hope we can keep it out of the constitution.

herman Bergson: Tat our rights come from god almighty scares me like hell

Bejiita Imako: (shudders)

herman Bergson: A president saying that!!

CB Axel: I don't mind people using their religious beliefs to help them decide who to vote for, but they shouldn't force their beliefs on every one.

Bejiita Imako: true CB

Max Chatnoir: That was pretty scary, but not much worse than Nancy Reagan's astrologer.

Max Chatnoir: It's been creeping up for some time.

CB Axel: Oh! I forgot about her. LOL

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: She had an astrologer, Max?

Max Chatnoir: I think she consulted one from time to time.

Max Chatnoir: I don't think he or she was there for breakfast every day.

CB Axel: If a person's religion is against abortion, then that person shouldn't have an abortion, but don't take that away from everyone else.

herman Bergson: There you misunderstand the meaning of religion, CB

Max Chatnoir: Yes, just when we really need population control, we seem to be doing everything we can to make it difficult.

CB Axel: If a person believes homosexuality is a sin, then they should not be homosexual.

herman Bergson: oops...that is harder to achieve :-)

Bejiita Imako: hehe

herman Bergson: The problem with a religion is its epistemological basis....

CB Axel: How is abortion at least partially not a religious thing.

Max Chatnoir: I had a student once who was determined to "get over it".  I often wonder what became of him.

herman Bergson: Abortion is just a biological and ethical thing...

Max Chatnoir: Yes, once you stray away from reason and evidence, anything can happen.

herman Bergson: But ethics is not the private property of religion(s)

CB Axel: Yes, but many Christians say life begins at conception according to the bible.

herman Bergson: Well not according to the manual of my computer...

Max Chatnoir: Well, life begins 3.8 billion years ago.  After that, the line gets tricky.

Max Chatnoir: We clearly don't object just to killing.  Texas does it several times a year.

CB Axel: If life begins at conception, why do they celebrate their birthday on the day they were removed from their mothers' bodies and not on the day she got pregnant?

CB Axel: That's the big contradiction, Max.

Bejiita Imako: hmm

herman Bergson: Interesting observation CB :-)

Bejiita Imako: never thought about that

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: My birthday is September 15....

herman Bergson: so minus 9 months....

herman Bergson: My parents jhad a great New years party.....:-)

Max Chatnoir: :-)

CB Axel: I'm going to start celebrating celebrating my birthday in November.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

CB Axel: LOL, herman.

CB Axel: I'm going to insist my family sends me "mom got knocked up day" cards.

herman Bergson: I gonna celebrate on January 1st

CB Axel: Cool! There will be parties all over the world for you then!

Max Chatnoir: That will run you into Christmas, Hermann.

Max Chatnoir: Better stick with September.  :-)

herman Bergson: Yes...when my delivery was a few weeks overdue....

CB Axel: Yeah, early January birthdays mean fewer presents.

herman Bergson: My mom was knocked up in a stable in the hay :-)

CB Axel: !

Max Chatnoir: Reincarnation!

herman Bergson: Nice expression 'knocked up'

Bejiita Imako: hehe

CB Axel: Now that I think about it, I was a month early, so I guess my parents had a happy Christmas.

herman Bergson: So maybe I am Jesus...:-))))

Bejiita Imako: hehehe

Bejiita Imako: maybee ㋡

CB Axel: And atheist Jesus. That'll be hard for people to wrap their heads around.

herman Bergson: Yes stick to MAYBE, Bejiita...:-)

Bejiita Imako: lol

herman Bergson: Well...we covered a lot of ground today...making me end up as Jesus himself...:-)

Bejiita Imako: hahaa

CB Axel: Having an atheist Jesus could change American politics quite a bit.

Max Chatnoir: That's what meddling in American politics will do to you, Herman.

CB Axel: LOL, herman

Bejiita Imako: it always takes an interesting turn ㋡

herman Bergson: I'll think about it CB.....:-)

Bejiita Imako: hahaha

CB Axel: I can't believe you beat Ted Cruz to being Jesus.

Bejiita Imako: hahaha

herman Bergson: No..he is closer to god...

Bejiita Imako: Herman is a better jesus for sure!

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Time to dismiss class....

CB Axel: It is late.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: if we go on like this I have to take off to heaven :-)

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Max Chatnoir: Yes, I must unlock my door now.

CB Axel: Thank you all for the discussion.

Max Chatnoir: Hi, Riger!

Max Chatnoir: Roger.

Roger Amdahl: Good evening all

herman Bergson: there....the gates of heaven are opended again :-)

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Hello Roger....

herman Bergson: victim of the Daylight saving time shift?

Max Chatnoir: See you all next week.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi Roger

CB Axel: Oh, Bejiita, did you hear the LHC has been delayed?

Bejiita Imako: yes heard now recently

herman Bergson: And there were rumors about another new particle...

Bejiita Imako: a magnet have shorted out

Bejiita Imako: i looked forward to it starting tomorrow

CB Axel: Yes. So now they have to warm up the magnets again, find the short and cool them again.

CB Axel: I did, too.

Bejiita Imako: yes

Bejiita Imako: thats the prob with superconductors

Bejiita Imako: takes forever to fix them

CB Axel nods

Bejiita Imako: and so typical this close to startup

CB Axel: Well, I'm going to head home.

Bejiita Imako: well cu soon

herman Bergson: Thank you alll for your attention again :-)

Bejiita Imako: bye all

herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tc Bejiita

CB Axel: Thank you, herman, and everyone. This was a fun discussion even if we didn't eliminate religion from politics.

CB Axel: Bye, bye everyone.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Bejiita Imako: bye

herman Bergson: That will take some centuries, CB

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight

herman Bergson: See you, Beertje ^_^