579: The End of the Atheism Project

For some reason a lot of people have problems with our finiteness. I really do my best to understand this problem.

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We are born, live a short or a long life and die again. people have serious problems with this simple observation. There has to be more.

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In my previous lecture I stated, that the question “What is the meaning of life?” is syntactically correct but useless. It gets body by adding a context.

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“What is the meaning of life as a member of society, as a father, as a colleague, as a gardener?” That makes sense, but it all comes to an end.

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Here a typical quote. I forgot who was the author, bit it was originally posted at ‘National Catholic Register’. -QUOTE-

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If consciousness is just a mirage produced by chemical reactions in our brains, and if the mirage permanently flickers out on the day those reactions cease, then do any of our conscious thoughts really matter? 

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Sure, you can have an impact on others who will live on after you die, but one day they will disappear into thin air too. 

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To my mind, all this talk of valuable life experiences adding up to something meaningful is like talking about how to make X add up to something meaningful in (21 + 2 + 10 + 28 + 22 + 14 + 7) * 0 = __ . In the end, it is zero, it’s all for naught.

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This, of course, does not necessarily mean that the atheist materialist worldview is false. Whether or not life has any meaning if atheism is true is a separate question from whether or not it is true in the first place. 

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My intent here is simply to point out that you can’t have it both ways: Modern atheism denies that human consciousness is rooted in anything other than the chemicals in our brains, 

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thus rejecting the idea that any of our experiences will last outside of time; yet it also tries to say that our consciousness and experiences are meaningful. I don’t see how both of those assertions can be true.

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I’ve talked to quite a few Christians who say that if there were no eternal life for the soul, they would still find life to be meaningful. 

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Maybe there’s some gene that allows you to sense meaning even if you believe that you’re faced with complete annihilation? 

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If so, I don’t have it, because that mindset is not one I’ve ever understood. - END QUOTE -

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A nice example of the standard rhetoric , suggesting a lot, but if fact an example of a sloppy use of concepts. The basic idea is that life can not be meaningful, if it is finite.

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If our consciousness and thus our thoughts are finite, “then do any of our conscious thoughts really matter? “, is the first question.

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The author thinks “no”. But the finite mind of Aristotle produced a lot  of thoughts we still discuss? What about literature, art, music, science? So.. a curious position…

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Can life have a meaning, if atheism is true, because if it is true life would be finite? It sounds so simple, but what means “true” here. What concept of truth is meant?

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Nevertheless we are slowly guided to the conclusion, that there is just one choice: complete annihilation or the existence of an eternal soul.

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So experiences which last outside of time give meaning to our life? And why would that be? Why doesn’t helping my neighbor give meaning to my life or writing a book?

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And there is something else I still can not understand: what is the sense of existing eternally for a soul (whatever that is)? What purpose does it serve?

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What happened to the souls of all who died in the past 43.000 years, while they did not know they had a soul? Wasn’t that soul invented only a 2500 years ago?

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Maybe finding a meaning in the finiteness of a lifetime makes more sense than to look forward to the prospect that your soul will exist for eternity.

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Thank you…. the floor is yours ^_^

The Discussion

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) claps

Max Chatnoir: But the equation is wrong.  It isn't times zero, it's PLUS zero.  So whatever your life means, it goes on meaning that after you die.  If you make it times zero, that implies that death is a part of everything.  I don't think so.  It may FOLLOW everything, but the everything still is.  I think the eternal life myth was invented to pacify people whose lives were hard and horrible so that that wouldn't rebel and take over the castle.

herman Bergson: The classic interpretation of an afterlife MAx

Max Chatnoir: The dinosaurs haven't lost meaning just because they are extinct.

herman Bergson: But what surprises me most is this desire of eternal life...

herman Bergson: Neither do I understand this peculiar way of reasoning regarding death, Max

Max Chatnoir: Well, I sort of get it.  I'd like to live until tomorrow, and tomorrow I'd like to live until day after tomorrow.  I don't know when that ends.  If I were sick, senile or in pain, I might decide I would NOT like to live until tomorrow, of course.

herman Bergson: Especially when you are told that the meaning of life is beyond or outside your actual life

Max Chatnoir: The meaning of the dinosaurs is beyond their actual lives.

Max Chatnoir: Unless you count birds, but even if you do, the other dinosaurs still had meaning.

herman Bergson: The will to live is a biological mechanism.....driving all living organisms

herman Bergson: The issue of atheism is becoming a little bit boring, I think :-))

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Max Chatnoir: So we've decided that it's OK, and we won't go to hell, and that we need a new topic.  :-)

herman Bergson: The situation is quite clear....

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Bejiita Imako: i guess

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: only a 13 % of the world population is non religious....

herman Bergson: the other 87% believes in something and discriminates their fellowmen because of their believes

herman Bergson: a sad situation...

Bejiita Imako: indeed

Bejiita Imako: no nice world we live in

Max Chatnoir: Well, which part is making all the trouble?

herman Bergson: I wouldnt say that Bejiita....

Bejiita Imako: sad it is like this in modern days

Bejiita Imako: its 2015 and some live like in mid agaes, killing each other for nothing

Bejiita Imako: as i use to say

Bejiita Imako: make love not war

herman Bergson: yes....but don’t forget that the numbe rof democracies in the world still have increased...

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ;-)

Bejiita Imako: and world would be much happier place

Bejiita Imako: thats true

herman Bergson: it is a slow process...... not completed in our lifetime

Bejiita Imako: but still need to become much better in general, we have long way to go

Max Chatnoir: Indeed, and in some places going backwards.

Max Chatnoir: That's the scary part.

Bejiita Imako: yes, thats what makes me sad, as said, we live in 2015!

Bejiita Imako: not 1200

herman Bergson: I still believe that education will save this planet within a couple of centuries ^_^

Bejiita Imako: more education and less brainwashing would help

herman Bergson: At the end nobody can hide for the increasing scientific knowledge of our reality

Bejiita Imako: thats very true

Max Chatnoir: This morning on NRP I heard a story about a lesbian couple whose minister wouldn't baptise their baby.  What good did that do anybody?  Of course, that's a slightly bizarre story in itself.

herman Bergson: there is nowadays not a single person who still sincerely believes that the earth is flat

herman Bergson: that it is the center of the universe

CB Axel: Actually, I think there still are.

Max Chatnoir: I hope not.

CB Axel: I recently read about flat earthers.

herman Bergson: There are yet still people who believe that some diseases are inflicted by demons or bad spirits

Bejiita Imako: ah

Max Chatnoir: Yes, and if you get cancer, you must have deserved it or god is testing you or something.

herman Bergson: Yes CB....there are always such people :-)

herman Bergson: yes MAx....but medical science will one reveal more and more

CB Axel: I never understood why religious people who pray to be cured of disease ever go to a hospital. Are they hedging their bets that God can or will cure them?

herman Bergson: and all of a sudden....all diseases we can cure are no longer a punishment by god

Max Chatnoir: Or don't vaccinate their children.

Bejiita Imako: i think its sad homosexuality is so frowned upon, not one single time ever i have seen same sex people open show love like other couples always do in the city ect

Bejiita Imako: cause its seen as not normal

Bejiita Imako: bisexuality is more common then u might think

herman Bergson: But there are countries where people of the same gender may marry...

herman Bergson: this was never before possible on this planet

Max Chatnoir: True, that is progress.

Bejiita Imako: going in right direction but way to slow progress there too

herman Bergson: So I am not that pessimistic....:-)

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Bejiita Imako: lets just hope for the best

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Max Chatnoir: Education does spread, if we can survive long enough.

Bejiita Imako: thats all we can do

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): humans are often slow oin progress. But I also think that the world in some things changes .

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): slowly;-)

herman Bergson: Yes...and it is just a fact of nature that our brain can not accept changes faster...

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): we are afraid also of changes

herman Bergson: for instance....

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): its easier to stay in the comfort zone

CB Axel: I believe that for the most part people don't change but each generation brings the change that we see.

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes, true

herman Bergson: ANd I have to create a new comfort zone in the form of a new project .....:-)

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): bit by bit

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): oh ha

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): what will it be

Max Chatnoir: Do you have any thoughts on a new project?

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): put me in a nice villa with a swimmingpool and I can handle the change very quickly..

herman Bergson: In fact I have indeed.....

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: I was thinking about EVIL.....

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes sounds good;-)

herman Bergson: With all these nice almighty all good gods.....we have a problem with evil....

herman Bergson: and even without these gods....

Bejiita Imako: we sure have

herman Bergson: is man intrinsically good or bad?

Bejiita Imako: evil is a big problem in the world

Max Chatnoir: everybody's gods aren't the same so everybody's evil isn't the same.

herman Bergson: It is, Bejiita

Max Chatnoir: And how is evil different from unethical or just bad manners?

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who decides what bad manners are?

herman Bergson: Yes, MAx....I think we have questions enough about what is evil and how to deal with it

Max Chatnoir: same people who decided who god is?  :-)

Max Chatnoir: Go for the evil, Herman!

herman Bergson: How can we put an end to evil in this world.....?

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): also to face our own evil sides

Bejiita Imako: definition of evil, total opposite of being good

Bejiita Imako: basicaly the desire to cause as much harm as possible for your own sake

Bejiita Imako: to others or nature or whatever

Max Chatnoir: If I walk up to a fat person and say, "gee, you're fat,"  I may be speaking truth, but I may also be doing harm.

Bejiita Imako: and think its ok to do so

Bejiita Imako: thats evil to me

herman Bergson: I am checking some literature on the history of evil among other things....

Max Chatnoir: Cool!

herman Bergson: different times...different kinds of evil

Bejiita Imako: aa ok

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Bejiita Imako: i for one thing can say I’m not evil since i have no desire to hurt others or case any form of damage, i don’t have any drive for such things

herman Bergson: You can continue the study as much as you like.....

CB Axel: Good to know, Beiita.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: just google on it and you get millions of hits

CB Axel ticks the box "Not Evil" next to Bejiita's name. °͜°

Max Chatnoir: :-)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

herman Bergson smiles

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Max Chatnoir: Well, I try to behave myself.

herman Bergson: Nice, you keep track of it, CB :-)

Bejiita Imako: promises not to blast CB with LHC beams

Bejiita Imako: hehe

CB Axel: LOL

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): I must leave now.

Bejiita Imako: im trying to help starting the thing up right now

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Will there be class on Thursday?

herman Bergson: If I have come to one conclusion about atheism, then it is that the subject is pretty quickly boring :-)

herman Bergson: Yes Daruma.....

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Max Chatnoir: Well, you are sort of preaching to the choir here, Herman.

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Ok see you then.

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) waves

herman Bergson: Yes Max....

CB Axel: I don't think it's boring.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Daruma

Max Chatnoir: I thought there were some very good discussions1

herman Bergson: Well...eventually CB....

Max Chatnoir: !

CB Axel: But like Max says, we here are all ok with it.

Bejiita Imako: yes we had indeed

herman Bergson: Yes the discussions were good!

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): boring lectures are lectures too:)

herman Bergson: lol

Bejiita Imako: but atheism i don’t think can be further explored, not much

Bejiita Imako: hehe yes i learned something for sure about it

herman Bergson: That was my feeling too Bejiita...

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: We need some new tunes, new music :-)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it can't always be sunday:)

Bejiita Imako: hehe

herman Bergson: true Beertje :-))

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): looking forward to the next lectures Herman

Bejiita Imako: aa me too

herman Bergson: Me too :-))

Max Chatnoir: Time for SATURDAY NIGHT EVIL (LIVE spelled backwards)

Bejiita Imako: hahaha

CB Axel: Exploring evil sounds fun.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahhaha

Bejiita Imako: aaa thats correct

Bejiita Imako: lol

herman Bergson: geez.... LIVE = EVIL.....:-)

Max Chatnoir: But that's only in English.

Max Chatnoir: So you don't have to worry.

Max Chatnoir: What is Evil in dutch?

herman Bergson: in dutch you get... LEVEN (live) = NEVEL (fog)

Max Chatnoir: live in a fog.  That works.

CB Axel: I identify with that.

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Bejiita Imako: ok

herman Bergson: In german too, I realize... LEBEN = NEBEL

herman Bergson: live = fog :-))

Bejiita Imako: living in a fog is a good definition of evil i guess in some ways

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are living creatures who live in the fog...

Bejiita Imako: in that evil people only think about themselves

Bejiita Imako: not the surroundings other then to harm it

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): stakkers die in het duister tasten....

herman Bergson: Well...I guess we are ready for a new subject......

Max Chatnoir: OK, you all, I will see you Thursday.  Oh, wait, we have our student research presentations on Thursday.  I may not get here.

herman Bergson: So thank you all again....class dismissed

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry can't translate that

Max Chatnoir: See you some time.  :-)

Bejiita Imako: aaa cu next time

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Ok MAx :-)

Bejiita Imako: bye all ㋡

578: Is The Atheist a Believer in Disguise ?

Gemma : one thing i have learned in the discussion these past weeks is that those who are unbelievers believe as strongly as faith believers. We all believe what we believe.  You believe it will not happen. Others believe it will.

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herman Bergson: The atheist is a believer in disguise :-))

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Gemma Allen : exactly!!!!!!!!!

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Gemma’s observation leads to a some interesting considerations. The first one is, that there are believers and faith believers. The second one is that we all believe what we believe.

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Does this later mean that everything is just a private belief? I believe this, you believe that? 

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This could imply an absolute relativism in the most extreme case. But I do not think, that this was intended here.

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But if an absolute relativism is not meant, this would imply that you have beliefs and beliefs. I mean, somehow there has to be some qualitative difference between beliefs.

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One way or another there have to be wrong beliefs and right beliefs. It can’t be, that you just believe what you believe and that such belief can not be criticized.

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-quote-  Before proceeding, let’s define our terms. An atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in God and⁄or finds the very concept of God meaningless or incoherent (Baggini 2003). 

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An agnostic is someone who is unsure or undecided about the existence of God, or who believes that there are certain matters

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 – such as existence of a God – that are beyond the scope of human knowledge and comprehension (Eller 2005). 

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Other terms commonly associated with atheist⁄agnostic include ‘‘freethinker’’ ‘‘humanist,’’ and ‘‘skeptic’’ (Pasquale 2009). 

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A secular person is someone who is non-religious, irreligious, or generally uninterested in, indifferent to, or oblivious to religious beliefs, activities, and organizations (Kosmin 2007). 

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Finally, a none refers to someone who, when asked in a survey what his or her religions is, stated ‘‘none.’’ -end quote-

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Let’s give an example. Is it ok to believe whatever you like? Take for instance psalm 14:

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1. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good. 

2. The LORD looks down from heaven

upon the children of men, to see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. 

3. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is good, not even one.

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It is in the bible, so it is god’s word. A christian believes that and thence feels completely justified to discriminate people,

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who talk like the “fool” mentioned in verse one, because who thinks like that is corrupt, evildoing and perverse.

However, the christian who thinks so, is fundamentally wrong. This kind of discrimination is contrary to basic human rights

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as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948.

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Yet, to quote Zuckerman, “some state constitutions – such as those in South Carolina and Arkansas – actually ban unbelievers from holding public office (Heiner 1992), 

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and in many courtrooms of America, divorced parents have had custody rights denied or limited because of their atheism (Volokh 2006).”

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-quote- It is often assumed that someone who doesn’t believe in God doesn’t believe in anything, or that a person who has no religion must have no values. 

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These assumptions are simply untrue. People can reject religion and still maintain strong beliefs. Being godless does not mean being without values. 

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Numerous studies reveal that atheists and secular people most certainly maintain strong values, beliefs, and opinions. 

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But more significantly, when we actually compare the values and beliefs of atheists and secular people to those of religious people, 

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the former are markedly less nationalistic, less prejudiced, less anti-Semitic, less racist, less dogmatic, less ethnocentric, less close-minded, and less authoritarian -end quote-

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So I would conclude, that in the first place there are justified and unjustified beliefs. Thence it is justified to question certain beliefs.

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In the second place, the secular person is not at all a believer in disguise. On the contrary. Maybe he is even a stronger believer in a better world than religious believers.

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The quotes were taken from the interesting article “Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions “ (2009) by Phil Zuckerman.

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http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

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Thank you…. the floor is yours ^_^

The Discussion

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine) claps

Max Chatnoir: I think the trick is in how far belief strays from observation.  There are observations that we can agree on.  Like whether there are people in the room or leaves on the trees.  There are common beliefs, like the moon goes around the earth, which is more or less observable over time.  There may be less common beliefs about invisibles like DNA or electrons.  Those are still more or less agreed upon, because we find arguments for them convincing.   The tricky territory is in beliefs about things that can't be seen or measured or predicted.

Bejiita Imako: Religious people often use their belief to justify discriminating homosexuals and other that they think are "different"

herman Bergson: hold on...plz....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true

Bejiita Imako: read one example in swedish paper today

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bejita

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Ja i mad also sometimes the experience, that "believing" people are a bit narrow minded

herman Bergson: let's take a moment to reads Max's comment

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true i say max

Bejiita Imako: hmm very true max

herman Bergson: Got one problem with your comment Max.....

Guestboook van tipjar stand: Hermine Resident donated L$86. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

Bejiita Imako: those things we know are there because we can see and measure them either directly or indirectly

herman Bergson: How do we observe things that can not be measured or used for predicting new events?

Bejiita Imako: on the other hand we cant see dark matter either yet it should be there they say

Max Chatnoir: Well, you can't.  That's the problem.  Once you get into immeasurables is that you can use those ideas to justify about anything.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Bejiita Imako: is god dark matter maybe?

herman Bergson: If they cannot be measured...how then can they be observed?

Max Chatnoir: But dark matter is measurable.

Bejiita Imako: the CERN guys say they should be able to detect missing energy to prove it

Bejiita Imako: if its there

herman Bergson: They even hope to discover something about dark matter when LHC is at top performance...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are looking into that now that it is running again

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): measuring it

Bejiita Imako: aa, i look forward to that

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): capturing it

Bejiita Imako: would be awesome to finally find out what it is

Ciska Riverstone: the difference between a believer of a faith and a non believer of all sorts is that the believer of a faith can be measured as to what he beliefs exactly, when he states is religion - the definitions are open to public whereas those of a non believer are not which makes them flexible and less committed

Max Chatnoir: Dark matter's gravitational effects are measurable.

Bejiita Imako: yes

herman Bergson: I disagree Ciska...

Bejiita Imako: thats why they go so far as say 70 to 90 % of all matter is dark

Max Chatnoir: Yes, non believers are free not to believe whatever they like.  :-)

Bejiita Imako whispers: thats a lot!

CB Axel: People of faith are flexible. They make their beliefs fit their prejudices. ;)

herman Bergson: I even strongly disagree ^_^

herman Bergson: As I said in my lecture....secular people have strong beliefs themselves....

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but believing must be flexible I guess. To some religios peoape this would be more helpful. I think .e.g. Fanatism

Bejiita Imako: WE ALL BELIEVE IN SOMETHING I GUESS

Bejiita Imako: THEN IF ITS GOD OR SCIENCE

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but non believers do believe

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we do Bejita^^

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Like Ihave the stron g belief that incenturies the human ratio finally will understand life

Ciska Riverstone: yes herman but they are not writtend down in a bible - so how can they be judged?

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): the human race must do that. without we turn depressive

Bejiita Imako: but both cases are beliefs

Max Chatnoir: But I think here is more in the world besides God or science.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they believe in their logical belief

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that there is no god

herman Bergson: No...the are written down in text on human rights for instance

Ciska Riverstone: which changes with time

Ciska Riverstone: its more flexible

Bejiita Imako: AH

Bejiita Imako: grmmmbl CAPS!

herman Bergson: that is not my impression Ciska...

herman Bergson: freedom of speech for instance...how flexible is that...?

Ciska Riverstone: wlll homosexuals were not included in human rights long time ago

CB Axel: It's very flexible.

herman Bergson: the right on your own life and body...?

Ciska Riverstone: which is wrong

Ciska Riverstone: but they might now

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): pretty free unless it threatens another human

Max Chatnoir: Yes, the issue of human rights isn't a scientific issue.  It's an opinion about the kind of society we would like to aspire to.

herman Bergson: Indeed Max...

Bejiita Imako: ah

Bejiita Imako: yes

Ciska Riverstone: yes max - i agree there

Ciska Riverstone: so it changes with the culture

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: But it is mainly focused on the integrity of the individual...

Ciska Riverstone: its not a million year old book people are hold down to

herman Bergson: YEs Ciska....

herman Bergson: cultures that do not recognize the individual as a value ....

Bejiita Imako: there are too many such cultures unfortunately

herman Bergson: such cultures have no problem of killing individuals....

CB Axel: Like the US.

herman Bergson: Like in the Stalin aera in the USSR

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or harassing them now

Bejiita Imako: no feel for other people

Bejiita Imako: i dont get it

herman Bergson: ok...it is an invention of the Enlightenment....the respect for the individual....

Max Chatnoir: But even in those cultures you don't kill just anybody.  It's the reach of who it's OK to kill that is the problem.

Bejiita Imako: it should be a built in instinct but i guess they have pushed it aside in some way

Bejiita Imako: hmm must be something like that

herman Bergson: But like all humans also we are the result of evolution

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): still evolving

Max Chatnoir: I guess the realm of "threat" is larger in some cultures.

herman Bergson: like no other culture in this world developed scienc but the European oen

Max Chatnoir: The arabs had a good start.

Bejiita Imako: yes

Max Chatnoir: Even a head start, but then they got religion.

Bejiita Imako: then islam ruined it

herman Bergson: yes but were stopped in 643 when Mohammed came with his Islam, Max

Bejiita Imako: the Arabs invented math for ex

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so did the Egyptians

Bejiita Imako: algebra

herman Bergson: they kept on going till 1100...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): with constructing

Bejiita Imako: then all stopped

Max Chatnoir: algebra has to be arabic, from the word.

herman Bergson: medicine, mathematics..then it was all killed

Bejiita Imako: really sad

Max Chatnoir: tragic.

Bejiita Imako: how far they could have gone

herman Bergson: Indeed....Bejiita...

herman Bergson: and look how far they have come today...:-((

Max Chatnoir: Even a few decades of determined irrationality killed soviet genetics.  It never recovered.

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): indeed

Bejiita Imako: they could be pioneers by now, instead they succumbed to religion and became stuck in time, even went backwards

herman Bergson: Indeed Max...

Bejiita Imako: just look how saudi threat women, they are like an object that you can just throw away

herman Bergson: We are witnessing a proces of evolution....cultural evolution that will take centuries...

Bejiita Imako: not human to them

Bejiita Imako: awful i think

Max Chatnoir: So religion can be devastating to intellectual life.

herman Bergson: But my point is.....we are aware of the process....

Max Chatnoir: and thence to human rights.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): part of that problem is that the women have not revolted in mass insurrection

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): fear

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): domination

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some have

herman Bergson: Like Psalm 14 is devastating to human rights Max

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and I think more will

Bejiita Imako: hope so

CB Axel: Part of the reason we're aware of the process is social media.

herman Bergson: Women are at least 50% of world power indeed Gemma...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

Max Chatnoir: Yes, that psalm would give you pause.

Bejiita Imako: yes

herman Bergson: Just think of the women of Sparta....:-)

herman Bergson: they kept their husbands form going to war.....by revolting....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

herman Bergson: denying them their male rights..:-)

Max Chatnoir: Indeed something like it gave Pascal pause. "Pascal's wager"

Bejiita Imako: ah

CB Axel: Male rights? Oh please!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   ,.·^*'´|'\            ,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,  ,/ |'`*^·-, 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |  \       ,·'       ,.·:*:·,         '`i      |            

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   |      ;          ':,:::,:·          ;      |            

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   :i - ·;i'`:,         ¯¯         ,·´|     '|           

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):  '|         '´         '|'i   `*:~· - ~^*'´    |   |          '`*·-, 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|          ,.-:^:':'\:'`:;                   :;·:i  /`':^·.,        i 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|..,.:'´              '\| '`*^~·:-:·~^*'´'|/            '`::..,  | 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '´:           ;:-·^*'´                              `'*^·:;-          

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):       `·;:·'´                                                      '`^  

herman Bergson: sorry....

herman Bergson: male desires :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): better

CB Axel: That's better. lol

Bejiita Imako: heheh

Max Chatnoir: gemma, how did you do that?

herman Bergson: thank you CB :-))

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahah Gemma

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): gesture

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: But my believe is....

herman Bergson: whatever I can think of...there are others who do too....

CB Axel: Do Muslims pick and choose what they like from the Koran the way Christians do with the Bible?

CB Axel: It seems to me that they do.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they interpret yes

herman Bergson: of course CB

Bejiita Imako: yes have to be like that

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there still hope for this world?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is why there are so many sects

Max Chatnoir: I would be cautious about discussing religion with my own siblings because they are quite conservative and I wouldn't want to upset them.

herman Bergson: Only scientists can't do that

CB Axel: Not just interpret but don't even read the parts they don't like.

Bejiita Imako: true

herman Bergson: with respect to their theories about reality

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): read but put aside

Bejiita Imako: if they dod there woulnt be these extremists

Bejiita Imako: did

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so do christians

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so do buddhists

CB Axel: Buddhists have a bible?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and all others

herman Bergson: The only ones who don;t are scientists...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they have yes

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not called bible

Bejiita Imako: ah i suppose so

herman Bergson: and when they yet do, they are caught performing data fraud

Bejiita Imako: scientists always look for hard evidence

herman Bergson: data

Max Chatnoir: I lost track of a thread.  Only scientists can't do what?

Bejiita Imako: look the same way at things

CB Axel: Scientists aren't afraid to say they were wrong and will change their minds when given evidence.

herman Bergson: cant interpret texts like they want..like you can interpret a bible or koran at will

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think they are called discourses

Bejiita Imako: all follow collected information

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): not all cb

Max Chatnoir: Ah, gotcha.  Thanks.

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): a lot scientist only chase for money for their projects.

Bejiita Imako: the higgs boson for ex everyone agrees it exists based on the same information, its not one thing for some and another for some others

Bejiita Imako: because there is actual data on it

Max Chatnoir: Yes, that's a nice point.

CB Axel: Those are not scientists, imo, Daruma. They are propagandists.

herman Bergson: Daruma...we can't escape the fact that even scientists are just humans

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and make errors

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): adn defend them

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol herman. true

Bejiita Imako: that true

herman Bergson: indeed Gemma...

Ciska Riverstone: a lot of scientist try to prove their beliefs and have troubles when this does not wokr out

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja Gemma. thats also true

Max Chatnoir: We do get things wrong, time after time, so we shouldn't get too cocky about what we believe.

Bejiita Imako: CERN goes by something called sigma 5, they don’t stare a discovery until its something like a 0.0000000001 chance its wrong

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for example the uk scientist who published an absolute lie regarding inoculations causing autism

herman Bergson: there is nothing wrong in accepting you are wrong...

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we must improve our beliefs more often

Max Chatnoir: But some things like DNA, and gravity probably aren't going to go away.

Bejiita Imako: state

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): vaccinations that is

herman Bergson: that is the big difference with a religious believer....he is NEVER wrong

Bejiita Imako: true

CB Axel: Gemma, they published that using bad science.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): correct

Bejiita Imako: then we have these false quakers

Max Chatnoir: false quakers?

Ciska Riverstone: herman - therer might be nothing wrong about it but when you were wrong the money for the next project is at stake

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but many still believe it

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and use it as a basis for no vaccinations

herman Bergson: I know Ciska....

Bejiita Imako: a fav is in the audio sector where they try sell you cables for 10000 s of dollars based on mumbo jumbo talk

Ciska Riverstone: and a scientist must live too

Ciska Riverstone: poor soul

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and it took a long time to convince some scientists it was not valid to begin with

Bejiita Imako: ah

herman Bergson: But another issue of this world is that it is all about money....

Max Chatnoir: Well, no vaccinations will give you measles epidemics for sure.

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but their have not a "normal" job. Scientist have to search for the "truth". Whatever that is

herman Bergson: another belief!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes money

Bejiita Imako: ah

herman Bergson: It is not about well being...it all is about profits and money

Ciska Riverstone: the truth is that believes steer our world whether we want it or not - we can only choose which ones

herman Bergson: so that is another chapter of learning for mankind :-))

Bejiita Imako: hence these quackers in science

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): and thats the problem in our world: money and prestige thinking

herman Bergson: get rid of the money thinking

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): call them quarks

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not Quakers

Bejiita Imako: luckily science is very serious in general

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is the term

Bejiita Imako: you can mostly trust science

Bejiita Imako: that is good

CB Axel: Money is a huge problem. Drug companies will make more money treating cancer than they ever will preventing it.

Ciska Riverstone: to trust is to belief

herman Bergson: All knowledge claims by the catholic church are refuted..

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Bejita, we< can trust nobody;-)

herman Bergson: the earth is NOT flat

Bejiita Imako: it sure isnt

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): nee herman?? och.

herman Bergson: the sun is NOT the center of the universe

herman Bergson: The earth is NOT created 6000 years ago...

herman Bergson: all well proven facts

Ciska Riverstone: how does that affect our happiness?

Bejiita Imako: since we have observed both

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

Ciska Riverstone: ;)

Ciska Riverstone: (just being a bit of a advocato diaboli)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): takes a while for many scientific beliefs to be proven wrong

Bejiita Imako: still like discworld though

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): poor Galileo

Ciska Riverstone: me too bejiita

Max Chatnoir: poor Giordano Bruno!  Galileo at least survived.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear

Bejiita Imako: hehe

herman Bergson: ahh CB....there you say something important...

CB Axel: Me?

herman Bergson: Let me give you a description of the world we live in....

Max Chatnoir: But it's a good example of how scared he was to persis.

herman Bergson: Just lsiten...

Max Chatnoir: persist.

herman Bergson: A pharmaceutical firm creates a medication that can heal a child of a lethal disease...

herman Bergson: it sets the price to 80.000 dollar a cure and keeps the production low....for the main goal of the company it the shareholders

herman Bergson: then your child gets the disease....

herman Bergson: disease...

herman Bergson: he was infected by the son of your neighbor...

herman Bergson: you do not have the 80.000 dollars for the cure...

herman Bergson: your neighbor has for he is rich...

herman Bergson: thayt is our system of today...

herman Bergson: first come the shareholders...

Bejiita Imako: of you have no money you are worthless

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): always

Bejiita Imako: if

Bejiita Imako: thats sad

herman Bergson: then the person with the big money who can save is child

Bejiita Imako: and crazy

herman Bergson: then the funeral of your own child

Ciska Riverstone: ★•¸¸.»Ancient Romans understood the concept of personal responsibility.★•¸¸.»

After a Roman arch was completed, the engineer who built it had to stand underneath it when the scaffolding was removed.

herman Bergson: That is the world we live in and we are discovering this....revealing this...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is a new web thing that has popped up in the USA

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): called fundme

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on the web

herman Bergson: wow...really Ciska...!

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes, the thinking in the world must change. Money is for buying things, not to save as much as you can for luxury things. It must be again only to change into food, warm clothes and all the basic stuff.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): people post all kinds of causes and collect money

Ciska Riverstone: did copy that from sedona ;)

Bejiita Imako: ok

herman Bergson: Well...Gemma....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some like those with ill kids

herman Bergson: I hope you are satisfied with my response to your stance :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who need money for surgery

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or meds

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): satisfied

Bejiita Imako: you cant measure a lifr in money still we do

Bejiita Imako: life

herman Bergson: It was an honor to present this lecture for you :-))

CB Axel: Hmmm. I wonder if the people who make vaccines and test them would make it well known that they use them and give them to their children would convince anti-vaccers to change their minds?

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): very true bejitaä

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

Bejiita Imako: nice lecture again

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes thank you herman

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): so no lecture on Thursday?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think it depends on the culture cb

Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - it would make a difference cb

herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are those in some countries who cannot accept them

CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Are we meeting on Thursday?

herman Bergson: Ahh good you ask...

herman Bergson: CB

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): are we done with athiesm?

herman Bergson: I will be on vacation in RL on Thursday...so no class then!

Bejiita Imako: ok

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hooray

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but tuesday again?

CB Axel: OK. Thanks.

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Ciska Riverstone: a friend of mine had to fly these days with lufthansa - and the pilot came to the people before the start telling them that he has family too and wants to be down in once piece again - they aprriciated it.

herman Bergson: celebrating a lot....:-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not hat you are retired take lots of vacations

herman Bergson: going to the island again...

Ciska Riverstone: enjoy vacation

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wonderful

CB Axel: Have a nice holiday and see you next week.

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): happy holidays

herman Bergson: me and my wife then both 65 !

Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

Ciska Riverstone: cooooool

Bejiita Imako: have a good time there

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ui congratulations!

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a wonderful vacation Herman

Ciska Riverstone: ejoy

herman Bergson: yeah..the state will provide for us from then on..lol

Ciska Riverstone: take care everyone

Bejiita Imako: bye all

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): so see you next week

herman Bergson: Thank you all.....

herman Bergson: class dismissed :-))

herman's eyes: 2015-04-07  [23:01]  CB Axel

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fijne avond Herman en ik zie je morgen

Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.

577: The Meaning of "Meaning"

If you think about the ease with which people talk about the meaning of life, it actually is amazing. Do they really understand what they are talking about?

.

In his article The Meaning of “meaning” (1975) Hilary Putnam says: “In my opinion, the reason that so-called semantics is in so much worse condition than syntactic theory is, 

.

that the prescientific concept on which semantics is based - the prescientific concept of meaning- is itself in much worse shape than the prescientific concept of syntax. 

.

As usual in philosophy, skeptical doubts about the concept do not at all help one in clarifying or improving the situation any more than dogmatic assertions by conservative philosophers that all's really well in this best of all possible worlds. 

.

The reason that the prescientific concept of meaning is in bad shape is not clarified by some general skeptical or nominalistic argument to the effect that meanings don't exist.” -end quote-

.

You might say….wait a minute! Here you are talking about semantics, about what words mean. When I ask “what is the meaning of ‘chicken’ ?” , that is a totally different question from “What is the meaning of life?”

.

“What does traveling mean?” It means moving from A to B. So what does life mean? It means “not being dead”. And this concludes the debate about what the meaning of life is.

.

When you Google on “meaning of life” you get al least 419 million (!) hits within 0.31 seconds! Combined with atheism you still get 2.220.000 hits within 0.47 seconds.

.

The idea that the meaning of life = not being dead seems not to be satisfactory. We do not want to know the meaning of the word, so actually we do not ask for the meaning of life at all. We are asking something else.

.

As so often Wikipedia answers our puzzlement: “The meaning of life is a philosophical and spiritual question concerning the SIGNIFICANCE of living or existence in general.

.

 It can also be expressed in different forms, such as "What should I do?", "Why are we here?", "What is life all about?", and "What is the purpose of existence?….” -end quote-

.

The use of the word “meaning” is in fact masking the real question. The question is about the PURPOSE of life. This reveals already a primary assumption: life has a purpose.

.

One of the most common criticisms of atheism is that life can have no meaning without a god-belief. Even if true it does absolutely nothing to prove the existence of god. 

.

What the believer is saying is that god-belief gives him or her the feeling that life makes sense. Well, that’s great, but your feelings don't prove anything.

.

We are not dealing here with a semantical problem but with a psychological matter. Yet maybe “The Meaning of Meaning: A Study of the Influence of Language upon Thought and of the Science of Symbolism”  (1923, a book by C. K. Ogden and I. A. Richards, may help us out.

.

Richards sets forth a contextual theory of Signs: that Words and Things are connected “through their occurrence together with things, their linkage with them in a ‘context’…”

.

The question “What is the purpose of life?” makes no sense. We do not live some abstract life. We live in contexts. These contexts are family, neighborhood, town, country, earth, universe, or simply the soccer team we are member of….

.

Within all these contexts the questions “What should I do?", "Why are we here?", "What is life all about?", and "What is the purpose of existence?” make perfect sense. For that you don’t need a religion or gods.

.

Why should we not find satisfaction in alleviating suffering or injustice, just because we’re all going to die one day? 

.

The very fact that this life is all we have makes it even more important to do everything possible to reduce the suffering caused by poverty, disease, injustice and ignorance in any context. 

.

To describe such attempts as meaningless is to say that avoidable suffering does not matter, hardly a moral stance.

.

Only when you would ask me to answer these questions within the context of the universe, I have to disappoint you. The only thing I know is that we are here. 

.

Maybe we should first try to answer the question “What is the meaning of the universe?”  Being a hobby or a toy of some god(s) perhaps?

.

Thank you… the floor is yours ^_^

The Discussion

Bejiita Imako: that might be a good place to start indeed

Bejiita Imako: and for what i know there are some really good organisations doing just that at moment

CB Axel: 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything according to Douglas Adams.

Bejiita Imako: both NASA and CERN are at it

Max Chatnoir: Is the universe more meaningful because there is life in it?

Bejiita Imako: how does the world really work

Max Chatnoir: and we're here to ask the question?

herman Bergson: I think it is nonsense to ask for the meaning of the universe....

herman Bergson: it is using language in a wrong context

CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita. They're looking for how the universe works but not why it's here.

Bejiita Imako: that might be

Max Chatnoir: I like that answer "42".  There is a sort of ultimate lawfulness about it.  :-)

Bejiita Imako: its just here

Bejiita Imako: sort of

herman Bergson: the fact that we can ask the WHY question doesnt mean that it makes sense in all situations

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and i think how it got here as it is

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): how

herman Bergson: I think the only real fact is that the universe and we are just here...

herman Bergson: and that our limited brain isnt capable of understanding more thanthat

Eva Inanna (evaishtar): And how do we know that the universe and us are here? what is here?

Max Chatnoir: Interesting enough for our limited brains.  :-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Bejiita Imako: maybee its like Matrix

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: the question is begging the question....I would say Eva :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think this discussion has taken place zillions of times over the centuries

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): over and over

Lizzy Pleides: yes, I also think the point is that our brain is too limited to find an explanation

Eva Inanna (evaishtar): perhasp it has no answer

herman Bergson: yes the Matrix was a terrific idea ;-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but it keeps us going

herman Bergson: no it hasn’t; Eva

herman Bergson: Also such a weird idea of humans.....

herman Bergson: there HAS to be an answer to every question....

herman Bergson: where the philosopher also questions the question too :-)

herman Bergson: As I said....we live within contexts...

herman Bergson: and within these contexts our lives make perfectly sense...

herman Bergson: you don’t need a religion for that

herman Bergson: you need love, empathy, compassion, idealism, joy and so on...

Bejiita Imako: ah

herman Bergson: that creates a meaningful life to me

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): especially idealism in the case of the service of human kind

herman Bergson: yes Gemma.....

herman Bergson: all these people of Green Peace for instance...

Max Chatnoir: When Thomas Huxley lost one of his children, he said that it would have been nice if he could have found consolation in religion, but that it wasn't an intellectual move that he could honestly make.

Bejiita Imako: yes

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): most people who don’t believe do that

Bejiita Imako: ok

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in fear too i think

herman Bergson: what would have given religion, Max...

herman Bergson: the believe that death is not the end.....

herman Bergson: ?

herman Bergson: You read that is so many texts....

Max Chatnoir: I'm not sure what he meant exactly, but probably something like that.

herman Bergson: People can not believe that life just ends like that...

herman Bergson: But...just think about it.....

herman Bergson: After we die we will live forever in the glory of the Lord....oh my

Max Chatnoir: I think that might be a major appeal of religion -- the connection to an afterlife.

herman Bergson: I live ..say..80 years...

herman Bergson: that is just a blink of en eye related to eternity

herman Bergson: then I die....

herman Bergson: and I have to live on forever...what sense does that make

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe time doesn’t exist anymore after you pass away

herman Bergson: ok Beertje....time doesn’t exist then....

herman Bergson: then you just are?

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

Max Chatnoir: Yes, if we becamse truly immortal, we would have to stop having children.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well it means you would take your mind and use it to enjoy forever

herman Bergson: MAy I then ask what the meaning is of eternal life???

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): aoll your philosophy

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and other interests

herman Bergson: What is it spurpose....???

Lizzy Pleides: in a closed sytem nothing gets lost, so what happens to mind and matter after death?

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): uhmmm...

Max Chatnoir: Generally, I think that having new people coming along might be more interesting.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): to what purpose was your past life??

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there would be no past of future

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just present

herman Bergson: It was to my joy and sorrow, Gemma :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you would have that memory

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): forever

herman Bergson: for what purpose, gemma?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): if you get there you will know

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): for your joy and sorrow;)

herman Bergson: If one thing scares me then it is the idea that this will go on for ever and ever.....:-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): one thing i have learned in the discussion thesse past weeks is that those who are unbelievers believe as strongly as faith believers

Max Chatnoir: Well, the matter gets recycled eventually, and without a brain, I think the mind must just stop.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we all believe what we believe

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you believe it will not happen

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): others believe it will

herman Bergson: Ahhh Gemma.....next lecture will be on that theme!!!!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

herman Bergson: The atheist is a believer in disguise :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly!!!!!!!!!

herman Bergson: Great!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all these lectures has proved that

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the discussions especially

herman Bergson: ok....

CB Axel: Atheist doesn't mean non-believer. Just a non-believer in a god.

CB Axel: We all believe something.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

herman Bergson: Prepare a lecture Gemma, in which you make your point...:-)

CB Axel: I believe I'll go have a glass of wine. °͜°

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): my meaning exactly

herman Bergson: You deserve the stand :-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we wil all have a glass of wine

Bejiita Imako whispers: yummy!

herman Bergson smiles

Bejiita Imako: hehe

herman Bergson: I already got one :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah it is too early for us

Max Chatnoir: My drug of choice is coffee.  :-)

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i have glass of petit shiraz waiting for later

Max Chatnoir: Never too early or too late.  :-)

herman Bergson: Well Gemma..what about the challenge?

Bejiita Imako: GIVE MEEEE!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no

Bejiita Imako: lol

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i did not graduate

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): here

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): jus tkeep coming and coming

herman Bergson: the next lecture will be about " The atheist is a believer in disguise :-))"

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who knew what i was getting into all those years ago

herman Bergson: :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hopes i can make it on time

Max Chatnoir: we do, too!

herman Bergson: Ok Gemma...you challenged me :-))

herman Bergson: The fact is, that this opinion...

CB Axel: There you go, Gemma. Your purpose in life is to challenge Herman.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

herman Bergson: that atheists are actually believers in disguise is a classic :-)

herman Bergson: Within the context of this class indeed Gemma...

herman Bergson: outside it I can be much nicer ^_^

Max Chatnoir: How many of us were raised in some kind of religious tradition?

Max Chatnoir: I was.

CB Axel: I was

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh i was

Bejiita Imako: not me

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very much so

Lizzy Pleides: I was too

herman Bergson: USsually most of us MAx...

herman Bergson: Me too

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): iw as, till i fell of the religion

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Max Chatnoir: There must be some second generation atheists!

herman Bergson: there will be Max....

Max Chatnoir: Maybe they just don't think about it so much.

herman Bergson: I found a sociological article about Atheism and crime...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and also the opposite ... those raised by unbelievers who suddenly discover religion by themselves

Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

herman Bergson: it shows that the societies which are the least religious also are the least criminal societies

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe it is all an act of aggression against our parents

herman Bergson: or I should say..with the lowest criminality

Max Chatnoir: Gosh, I hope not.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Max Chatnoir: aggression against parents....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no i don’t believe so in most cases

herman Bergson: Inother words...religion is NOT the source of morality

Bejiita Imako: for sure its not!

Max Chatnoir: So you could make an argument that atheism is good for society.

CB Axel: Maybe the least religious societies just have less strict laws.

herman Bergson: Havent read the article yet CB...:-)

Bejiita Imako: if it wasn’t for religion world would be peaceful today

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): interesting thought

Bejiita Imako: at least much more then now

herman Bergson: I'll dedicate a lecture to it

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bejiita. i know you believe that

Max Chatnoir: So what what wrong with the USSR wasn't atheism, but the political repression.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i doubt it

Max Chatnoir: Substitution for religious persecution --- thought police.

CB Axel: Bejiita, we would just use something else to fight about: race, country, etc.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

Max Chatnoir: But religious wars seem to generate such vervor.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or as a reason for fighting

Bejiita Imako: well there is always something to have as reason for war i guess

Max Chatnoir: fervor.

herman Bergson: The most amazing thing in the USSR was that after the fall of communism it was partly taken over by some russian maffia in no time...

Max Chatnoir: So the Head Bullies in Charge just changed.

herman Bergson: Which means, I guess , that there was an huuge mass of criminality under the surface already

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there always is

Lizzy Pleides: I believe that too herman

herman Bergson: Just think of it....

herman Bergson: all of a sudden there were Russian billionairs???!!!!!

CB Axel: I wonder if wars over religion are the most aggressive (or so they seem to me) is because deep down both sides know what they're fighting about is a shaky philosophy.

herman Bergson: Welll CB ..I'd say that would count for this medieval Islam indeed

Lizzy Pleides: religious wars are fanatic

CB Axel: So they fight harder so no one will be left to question their belief.

herman Bergson: and most islamic countries are failed societies

Bejiita Imako: hmm

CB Axel: Kill everyone else so I don't have to explain my religion anymore.

herman Bergson: no infra structure, no medical care, no educational system....

herman Bergson: or only in poor shape

herman Bergson: lots of corruption tho

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and lot's of sand...

herman Bergson: lots of sand indeed

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are those people jealous at us?

Lizzy Pleides: and oil sometimes

CB Axel: I can't help thinking that dividing up the middle east the way it was after WWII was a mistake.

herman Bergson: Could be indeed Beertje

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right cb

CB Axel: It wasn't countries. It was little tribes.

Lizzy Pleides: yes CB

Max Chatnoir: It still is.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): more and more evident

herman Bergson: But ...let's get back to the meaning of life :-))

CB Axel: Right

CB Axel: 42

herman Bergson: exactly CB...

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what does 42 mean?

Max Chatnoir: So many possibilities:

herman Bergson: A word from the Galaxy :-)

CB Axel: There is no meaning to life, so we may as well just make the best of it while we're here.

Max Chatnoir: 7 x 6, 6 x 7,  2 x 3 x 7 (all prime numbers)....

herman Bergson: Is the answer to the meaning of life in "Hichhicker through the galaxy"....some novel :-)

CB Axel: 6 is not prime.

Max Chatnoir: 21 x 2, 84 x .5.

Max Chatnoir: An infinitude of meaning  :-)

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Max Chatnoir: I just meant the last 3:  2, 3, 7.

herman Bergson: I disagree CB.....

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm..the dime is not falling for me...

herman Bergson: when you see your life within contexts there is a lot of meaning in your life

herman Bergson: Your live means a lot to a number of other people...

CB Axel: Beertje, read The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. Then you'll understand the significance of 42. °͜°

herman Bergson: to begin with

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: yeah thats the exact title

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok:)

herman Bergson: Well..I guess we challenged our brains enough for today....:-)

CB Axel: So my life has meaning for other people who's lives have no meaning?

Bejiita Imako: hehe

herman Bergson: So thank you all again.....:-)

CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

Max Chatnoir: Thanks for the interesting talk, Herman.

herman Bergson: Class dismissed...:-))

CB Axel: We stayed mostly on topic today!

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay!'

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Yes..not bad, wasnt it CB ? :_))

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Max Chatnoir: See you all next Tuesday.

Lizzy Pleides: thank you

Bejiita Imako: aaa cu then

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Yes next Tuesday the Gemma Challenge :-))

Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Bejiita Imako: hahaha

CB Axel: Bye, everyone. See you Tuesday. Can't wait to hear what Gemma has for us! LOL

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): being here will be the challence

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): challenge

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on time

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh i am listening

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): only

herman Bergson: I'll do the lecture....dont worry

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and commenting

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and we are listening to you Gemma...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ;-)

herman Bergson: no no..not yet Beertje

Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

Lizzy Pleides: good night everbody and happy eastern, if I may say that, lol

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): night bejiita

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): going fishing

herman Bergson: Bye Gemma..have a good time :-))