615: The New Project - SPINOZA

Welcome everyone. It is always a pleasure to see that I do not have to start a new project for empty chairs.

The present project is quite an interesting one, for it is about a philosopher, who for some reason is  still in the picture today.

To illustrate this…. at the end of the previous project I asked some friends, what could be a good subject for the next project.

And it was Beertje Beaumont, who suggested ….SPINOZA.

Spinoza? Why Spinoza? Yet it rang a bell, for I had a book of Antonio Damasio on my desk waiting to be read and its title contained the name “Spinoza”.

Spinoza, mentioned by two totally different sources. There had to be a reason. So I made Spinoza the primary subject of this new project.

I may be a philosopher by academic education in RL, I am not an expert in detail on Spinoza and his ideas. Yet, of course, I am quite familiar with his kind of philosophical ideas in general.

So my next step was to read Damasio’s book “Looking for Spinoza - Joy, Sorrow and the Feeling Brain” and to read all kinds of literature on Spinoza and his ideas.

And I can tell you,what I found was really amazing. A thinker of more than 350 years ago, whose philosophical point of view is still 100% topical today.

Moreover, to my astonishment, there even is Spinoza merchandise! Yes..! Let me show you a few items. Maybe there is something you’d like to purchase :-)

Who is this Spinoza? Why does Damasio say, that his neuroscientific thoughts relate to him. Why does Beertje mention his name? Why can you even buy a Spinoza cap?

I think, I found an explanation. 

Spinoza was born in 1632 and died in 1677. And during his only 45 years of life he had become a huge danger for the philosophical and especially theological establishment.

His ideas became even so threatening, that there has been a attempt to murder him. The only philosopher I know, who was killed by an assassin was Moritz Schlick (1882 - 1936)

The 17th century was an interesting period. There really was blooming something new: SCIENCE. And with science here I mean knowledge, freed from and independent of theological dogmas.

Science was freeing itself from religion. The Catholic Church had tried to block this development, for instance, by stifling Galileo Galilei ( 1564 - 1642 ), but this new development  showed to be unstoppable.

For us this is just history, but put yourself in Spinoza’s place. Look at the timetable behind me. For Spinoza this event must have been hot news. He must have heard about it.

And there was his own situation. He, Spinoza, member of the Jewish community of Amsterdam was eventually banned from it in the most horrible way, due to his philosophical ideas.

Spinoza lived in a world, in which scientific and philosophical ideas constantly were threatened by the dominating religious powers. So you had to be careful in what you say.

The Netherlands of those days was a remarkably tolerant country, so the history books tell us. Tolerant in so far what you said could get the approval of the theologians.

Yet to understand what kind of revolutionary steps were taken in the evolution of the mind, just put it in a wider perspective.

In the period 1600 to 1700 the picture looked like this. China and Japan were dominated by the dogmatism of Confucianism and Buddhism.

India was in the grip of Buddhism and hinduism, while the arabic world had come to a standstill due to the dogmatism of the Islam.

Africa was still in the dark and supplier of slaves. In South-America complete cultures were destroyed by conquistadores.

In North-America colonists from Europe were busy confiscating land, that was actually the habitat of the many indian tribes.

Only on one stop on earth, that is, in Europe, the human mind succeeded in freeing itself from the chains of religious dogmatism and learnt to look at the world in a scientific way.

From then on answers to questions were no longer based on beliefs, but on observations, facts and empirical research.

Of course this a somewhat simplified picture of a much more complex situation, but imagine yourself amidst such a revolution of the mind.

Spinoza lived in such a world and the revolution was carried out by just a handful of great minds in Europe. You almost literally could count them on your 10 fingers.

When you look at the timetable behind me, you can see that Spinoza must have known several of these great minds and indeed he had contact with them.

But why are people today still interested in Spinoza? And why were his ideas in his own lifetime enough to set whole packs of theologians to fire?

Let me quote here Dan Garrett, editor of “Cambridge Companion to Spinoza” (2001):

-QUOTE-  Although he was a naturalist - in the sense of holding that nothing exists outside of or beyond Nature - Spinoza was no simple atheist hiding impiety in conciliatory or ironic theistic terminology. 

Rather, by reconceiving Nature as active and self-causing, and at the same time reconceiving God as nonpurposive and extended, 

he was able to conceive of God as identical with, rather than as the transcendent creator of, Nature.-END QUOTE-

It is kind of Garrett , that he says that Spinoza was not a “simple” atheist, whatever that may be, but I take the liberty to claim, that Spinoza simply WAS a materialist and consequently an atheist.

Spinoza did the same as Descartes, that is, adding God to his metaphysics without any logical necessity. It was almost impossible in those days not to do so, if you wanted to live.

To openly be a materialist and consequently an atheist in our days is not as dangerous as in the days of Spinoza, but still it is hardly appreciated.

Just try to become, for instance, President of the United States and tell your voters, to begin with, that you are an atheist. Good luck!

In other words, it really is worth while to study the ideas of Spinoza, which to some extend are still as threatening to some people today as they were in his days.

So, I welcome you all to the new project and I hope, that we’ll have an interesting time ahead together.

Thank you….the floor is yours.. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): It sounds fascinating, Herman and your time table is a great reference

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): brings development in perspective

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this can be good

[13:26] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): great subject, i'm glad you're doing this... back when i studied spinoza, i found his ideas too complex, i felt i didn't begin to understand what he was about... lol

[13:26] CB Axel: An atheist in US politics has a snowball's chance in hell at succeeding, if there was a hell for the snowball to melt in.

[13:26] CB Axel: And I agree, the time line is very useful. °͜°

[13:27] herman Bergson: thank you....

[13:27] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): it's quite difficult to understand his original texts, and interpretations... there are all kinds

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he wrote most of the text in Latin

[13:27] herman Bergson: That is an important point, Abinoam.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: I found a dutch Spinoza website.....

[13:28] herman Bergson: and on the forum there they were bickering about  whether Spinoza meant IN or INSIDE...or ON TOP OF IT with the latin word "in" in text this or that

[13:28] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes lol exactly

[13:29] herman Bergson: Such discussions are nice but nonsense and unproductive to me

[13:29] herman Bergson: My point of view is ...

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): blogimages.seniorennet.be

[13:29] herman Bergson: when a philosopher doesn’t express his ideas in an understandable way, then it is just bullshit :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: or literary poetry...

[13:30] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): haha i agree!

[13:30] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡

[13:30] herman Bergson: Onthe other hand....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:30] herman Bergson: a discussion on interpretation of a text may bring a lot of new ideas too

[13:30] herman Bergson: and that is good....

[13:30] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam) nods

[13:30] CB Axel: Or he is trying to be a little obscure so as not to get in trouble with the church or the authorities. Maybe?

[13:31] herman Bergson: That is another point CB.....

[13:31] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): good point CB

[13:31] herman Bergson: That is why I bluntly claimed that Spinoza is a materialist and thence an atheist....

[13:31] herman Bergson: I think he plainly was....

[13:31] CB Axel nods

[13:32] CB Axel: I got that impression, too, from the little I read about him this week.

[13:32] herman Bergson: but as I said...like Descartes did.....in those days you HAD to give God a job in your metaphysics....

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): blogimages.seniorennet.be/spinoza_invlaanderen/attach/129948.docx

[13:32] CB Axel: Poor, unemployed God. lol

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Nietzsche  even buried him

[13:33] CB Axel: Neither of those links works for me. :-(

[13:33] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): sadly, i must leave you now...

[13:34] CB Axel: Aw. Bye, Abinoam.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye Abino

[13:34] herman Bergson: We'll be here next Tuesday again Abinoam

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:34] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): take care, everyone! i'll be there

[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves ㋡

[13:34] Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam) waves

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Abinoam

[13:34] herman Bergson: Bye :-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: So this isi Spinoza....

[13:35] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): You need a Spinoza painting from that time period, Herman

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wasn't he very young for a philosopher?

[13:36] herman Bergson: there are pllenty pictures of him

[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I doubt rembrandt painted him but I see one suitable

[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): yes Beertje

[13:36] herman Bergson: He was a pretty arrogant youngster in his twenties Beertje and bloody smart too then :-)

[13:37] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): :))) awesome

[13:37] herman Bergson: But he developed into quite a nice person....later on..

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): He seems someone in my style for sure, Prioritoze science before religion

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fact before hocus pocus

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is always a good thing

[13:37] herman Bergson: oh yes bejiita

[13:38] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I appreciate the rebel in him

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they thought different about that in those days

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and in these days too

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:38] herman Bergson: But the picture I drew for you of the world between 1600 -1700 is still the same today in fact

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:39] CB Axel: Unfortunately

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): history repeats itself

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:39] herman Bergson: the only difference is that all results of the scientific mind as developed in Europe are spread all over the world now ...all technology...

[13:39] herman Bergson: and so on...

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still religion dominate in a dangerous way and it fachinate me that we in modern time still believe in this stuff

[13:40] herman Bergson: every bullit in the terrible war in Syria is the product of russian or European or american technology....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in middle east time even goes backwards it seems

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all due to religion

[13:40] CB Axel: Not to mention the US south.

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes...and that is where Spinoza comes in....

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was a brave young man

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I saw a thing today making me really sad, some muslims had stabbed a girl only a few years old to death because her parents were Christian. Religion turn people into DEMONS!

[13:41] herman Bergson: He was a remarkable personality indeed Beertje...admirable

[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): :( Bejiita

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): science and fact should dominata all the world today I say, then we would not have these horrible wars

[13:42] herman Bergson: It is not religion Bejiita.....

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that makes me so sad Bejiita

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess its religion used in wrong way

[13:42] herman Bergson: It is lack of education, illiteracy...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still if we had not religion, could that still happen

[13:43] herman Bergson: Why do you not murder that child,Bejiita????

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): education is needed indeed

[13:43] CB Axel: That is religion being used to justify animalistic brutality.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its easy for me to say this who knows how everything really is but still

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everyone should have right to know this

[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): If not religion...nationalism would be an issue Bejiita ㋡ humans are programmed to fear the unknown

[13:43] herman Bergson: But as I said...why do you not kill children Bejiita?

[13:43] CB Axel: Exactly, Chantal.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess thats an issue to

[13:44] herman Bergson: Simply because you are educated in a certain way, have all kinds of knowledge

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still I just wish all those horible things would never have happened and everything all peaceful

[13:45] herman Bergson: Let me remind you of something.....

[13:45] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): and we wish more men like you would walk this planet ㋡ but heh reality... we need to deal with what we have... just one Bejiita with a great mindset :)

[13:45] herman Bergson: We all know of Darwin and evolution theory....

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: but what we are not inclined to think is that at this VERY moment evolution is STILL going on....

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is true

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like the evolution of the mind.....

[13:46] CB Axel nods

[13:47] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Hence we entered the anthropocene

[13:47] herman Bergson: where the rest of the world was kind of retarded homo sapiens in Europe developed new features of the mind.....developed science

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: and at this very moment it still is a survival of the fittest process...whatever politics you like

[13:48] CB Axel: And thus started the fight between God and the development of the human mind.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] herman Bergson: we are just a moment in the proces of evolution....

[13:49] herman Bergson: CB...that whole God business is complete nonsense to me.....a product of a seeking  mind only

[13:49] herman Bergson: we have to get past that to enter e new era of mankind

[13:49] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Like Spinoza's generation... worked for years until they left the planet and centuries until today... we look back at it as if it was an easy change

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same here, I don’t believe in something I have not seen myself, with logical PROOF

[13:50] CB Axel: God was a good idea at the time. God explained a lot of things for people. But his time has come to move over for logic.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Indeed CB.....

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex i have never believed in Santa but still I have always thought its nice when he shows up on christmas eve even if I know its someone else in that dress

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] herman Bergson: But tell that the uneducated....!

[13:51] herman Bergson: SO education is still everything  for obtaining a better future

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true if you don’t have info

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:51] CB Axel: There's the problem here in the US. We don't teach our children to think.

[13:52] CB Axel: They are giving crap to memorise and regurgitate back. There is no critical thinking involved.

[13:52] CB Axel: *given

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now all in US believe in Trump lol

[13:52] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I have heard someone from Italy saying the same about his country, CB :(

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least way to many

[13:52] herman Bergson: Just watch American TV series and you know how Americans think :-))

[13:52] CB Axel: Not ALL in US!!!

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: or believe how is best to think :-)

[13:53] CB Axel: I don't watch TV. Except for The Big Bang Theory and some sports. °͜°

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): except you CB:)

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa loves big bang

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a fun show

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I know a few well thinking americans more, glad to say but CB is def one of them

[13:53] herman Bergson: Indeed CB...just a few minds can move a whole world....like happend in 1600...

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:53] CB Axel: Yes!

[13:53] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡ agrees Herman

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): most are good i believe too

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): including my friends here

[13:54] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): SL gives you a good view on different cultures yes

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a scary thought that a few minds can move the world...

[13:54] CB Axel: Very true, Chantal.

[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess it is time to start sining the song "We shall overcome...." now ^_^

[13:54] CB Axel: LOL

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): someone really need to take Trump and dig him deep below the city waste dump, thats for sure

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheh

[13:55] herman Bergson: Stop Bejiita...no discussion on Trump here....

[13:55] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): It is Beertje so if we start with people who sign up for elections need to do a psychology test first... we have the best chance of a positive outcome

[13:55] herman Bergson: Spinoza is our subject ^_^

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it will all be good in the end i think

[13:55] herman Bergson: But it has happened all the time Beertje...

[13:55] CB Axel: Yes, please stop, Bejiita. I need to eat soon, and you are ruining my appetite.

[13:56] herman Bergson: just think of Einstein....

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think if this Spinoza was here today he would be a great inspiration source for all of us

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Like his style

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need to check him out a bit more

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well....I guess we covered it all today..almost saved the world and defined a new future ...:-)

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:57] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): YAY ㋡

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and I still believe in this world

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:57] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation again...:-)

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:57] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): HI5 ㋡

[13:57] CB Axel: He might be able to reconcile science with religion today.

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:57] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu tusday

[13:57] CB Axel: And thank you, Beertje, for suggesting Spinoza.

[13:58] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Great start Herman ㋡

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this will be interesting

[13:58] CB Axel: I think this is going to be fun. °͜°

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol..I gave Herman a lot of work to do

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe

[13:58] herman Bergson: Beertje did indeed......

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles warmly:)

[13:58] herman Bergson: gave her finally that spare time she longed for :-)

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahhaha

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:59] CB Axel: And now to find something to eat before someone mentions Trump again. lol

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe i won’t promise

[13:59] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡ CB enjoy

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smakelijk CB:)

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a nice meal

[13:59] herman Bergson: Run for it CB :-))!

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] CB Axel: See you all Tuesday.

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im off to a steampunk party

[13:59] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves ㋡

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs everyone

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting! thank you herman, thank you class

[13:59] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I will leave too, was great to see everyone again ㋡

[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[14:00] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ❤

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[14:00] herman Bergson: Wait for the soccerfield Bergie....if youhave time...

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs ㋡

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight:)

614: I need a vacation...

It seems that the article “The Pseudo-Problem of Free Will” never has been written in 1936 by Moritz Schlick. The debate goes on and on with philosophical hair splitting.

We are not a collection of items called, mind, brain, Will, body and whatever other items you like to add.

We are persons. That means somehow all these separate parts we discern are in fact a whole, an acting whole.

And to follow John Locke the Person is free and in that sense responsible for  his actions and its consequences.

What a person is, we hardly know. I mean, am I the same person now as the person I was when I was 5 years old?

This is the first of endless debates on philosophy: personal identity. Outcome? A number of interpretations and potential answers.

How different is the debate about the movements of planets. First we were at the center of the universe.

Then we were just one planet in a solar system and every movement of this planet from then on could be described mathematically without any doubt or debate.

Nobody questions the movements of the planets anymore. We call it laws of physics. They describe what causes what in the universe.

The next move has been that, because we as bodies are physical objects all laws of physics apply to us too, so, determined by causality.

The argument runs as follows - "If determinism is true, if, that is, all events obey immutable laws, then my will too is always determined, by my innate character and my motives. 

Hence my decisions are necessary, not free. But if so, then I am not responsible for my acts, for I would be accountable for them only if I could do something about the way my decisions went; 

but I can do nothing about it, since they proceed with necessity from my character and the motives. 

And I have made neither, and have no power over them: the motives come from without, 

and my character is the necessary product of the innate tendencies and the external influences which have been effective during my lifetime. 

Thus determinism and moral responsibility are incompatible. Moral responsibility presupposes freedom, that is, exemption from causality."

This process of reasoning rests upon a whole series of confusions. Here emerges the nonsense, trailing through centuries, that freedom means "exemption from the causal principle," or "not subject to the laws of nature." 

Just read Schlick’s article for more answers: http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/philosophers/schlick/pseudo-problem.html

And then there is that neuro scientific discovery. When you ask a person to push a button at will, you’ll observe 

that this person’s brain starts this command sequence half a second before the person consciously THINKS “Now I want to push the button”

From this they conclude that the physical brain ACTS before the mind WANTS to act. So, not the mind, which believes it  caused the action, but the brain is the boss.

This should be the proof that we have no free will. It leaves me, however only with the question: If there was a will to push a button,

then what set the brain processes in action to activate the body to do so, if it was not the mind?

You have a lot to think about and you will have a lot of time too, for I have decided that this is the last philosophy class of this season.

Spring is coming. I live in a completely new RL environment. It is all too distracting, especially because I now live in the midst of the fields of flowers, tulips, hyacinths and so on.

After so many years of lecturing here in SL it is time for me to take a small sabbatical. Maybe in September I’ll have found a new inspiring subject.

We’ll see…for now thank you all for your participation.

The floor is yours….. ^_^.

Some interruptions….

[13:17] .: You have a lot to think about and you will have a lot of time too, for I have decided that this is the last philosophy class of this season.

[13:17] .: 47

[13:17] .: .

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow

[13:18] .: Spring is coming. I live in a completely new RL environment. It is all too distracting, especially because I now live in the midst of the fields of flowers, tulips, hyacinths and so on.

[13:18] .: 49

[13:18] .: .

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you are wnjoyig your new home too much!

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and close to amsterdam to

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too

[13:18] herman Bergson: soooo true Gemma !!!

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: very nice ㋡

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but that is good

[13:18] .: After so many years of lecturing here in SL it is time for me to take a small sabbatical. Maybe in September I’ll have found a new inspiring subject.

[13:18] .: 51

[13:18] .: .

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope so

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look at the artificial intelligence dispute the is going on now

[13:19] herman Bergson: I'll do my best Gemma :-)

[13:19] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Visit bas haring in Leiden and you probably will

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots of stuff to took at

[13:19] herman Bergson: ahhh..Chantal...:-)

[13:19] .: We’ll see…for now thank you all for your participation.

[13:19] .: 53

[13:19] .: The floor is yours….. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone APPLAUDS!!!

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: thanx

[13:20] herman Bergson: I just need the brak -))

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this concept is a mind twister for sure

[13:20] herman Bergson: break

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): an interesting one

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am still with the belief that i have choice in most decisions

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: can it be that doug adams summed schick up in one sentence?

[13:21] herman Bergson: Me tooo Gemma...

[13:21] herman Bergson: To be honest...I got sick of all that hteoretical and logical babble...

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: “If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a non-working cat.”

― Douglas Adams

[13:21] herman Bergson: as if they know who we are..

[13:22] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yuck

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no taking cats apart!

[13:22] herman Bergson: Philosophy has no understanding f the concept of PERSON...

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: it looks at parts yes

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: and when you take them apart

[13:22] herman Bergson: indeed....

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: the whole working together is impossible to catch

[13:23] herman Bergson: but we can not otherwise...

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: because each one on its own is dead

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: maybe we can in the future ㋡ who knows?

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): teleporter a la star trek?

[13:23] herman Bergson: I don't think so....

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha bejiita

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that take you apart piece by piece and trandfer by computer

[13:24] herman Bergson: we'll never understand the mind in relation to the material body

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: has the same problem as the cat I bet

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its tricky

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: well maybe the trick is really that we do not need to

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its like a machine, take away critical components and nothing of it will work, motors controls

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not too sure of that Herman the instruments of studying the brain are getting better alll the time

[13:25] herman Bergson: Makes me think of what I read recently....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Ciska....

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): reactions to sight stimuli is measurable now

[13:25] herman Bergson: We seem to be preoccupied with designing the better human....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true too

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with the genetic map

[13:26] herman Bergson: just look at our attitude about health....

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: .. without understanding what "better" means?

[13:26] herman Bergson: dont drink

[13:26] herman Bergson: dont smoke

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): phooey

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on the drink

[13:26] herman Bergson: do a lot of excercises

[13:26] herman Bergson: eat healthy...

[13:27] herman Bergson: and so on....

[13:27] herman Bergson: all meant to create the better human being...

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): after doing all those healthy things we can't SMILE anymore//

[13:27] herman Bergson: the absurdity of ultimate health

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as Paula Poundstone says (a comic) you know a lot about health but not much about living

[13:27] CB Axel nods

[13:28] herman Bergson: exactly, Gemma :-))

[13:28] CB Axel loves Paula Poundstone

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she is so funny

[13:28] herman Bergson: Got her  number Gemma?

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: http://www.paulapoundstone.com/

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: just googled her

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: do not know her

[13:29] herman Bergson: great :-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well my dear friend...one thing I can tell you....

[13:29] CB Axel: I love her on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me." See if you can listen outside of the US from their website.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she is on wait wait don’t tell me on national pulblic radio

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and also does shows around the country

[13:30] herman Bergson: I gonna live this spring and summer here in RL :-)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah nie

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice

[13:30] CB Axel: I got to meet her at a taping of that show.

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: perfect herman ㋡

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ﾟ*:;;:*ﾟ♥ﾟ*:;;:*ﾟ♥ﾟ*:;;:*ﾟ♥

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):          HAPPY BIRTHDAY     

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ﾟ*:;;:*ﾟ♥ﾟ*:;;:*ﾟ♥ﾟ*:;;:*ﾟ♥ﾟ*:  

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the sl Hey! is coming in June

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops have to change that trigger

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sl 13 birthday

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: cool cb ㋡

[13:30] herman Bergson: os vacation for you all tooooooo!!!! \o/

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:31] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Gemma Cleanslate donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:31] herman Bergson: Thank you all....

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡ so we can all party :)

[13:31] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I can use one, so I wish you a colourful spring and summer Herman

613: No free will....

During the Enlightenment the rationale for determinism was shifting from theological or religious determinism back to the physical/causal determinism of the Greek cosmologists and atomists. 

Leibniz (1646 - 1716) imagined a scientist who could see the events of all times, just as all times are thought to be present to the mind of God.

-QUOTE- “Everything proceeds mathematically .. .if someone could have a sufficient insight into the inner parts of things,

and in addition had remembrance and intelligence enough to consider all the circumstances and take them into account, be would be a prophet and see the future in the present as in a mirror.” -END QUOTE-

The French scientist and mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace (1749- 1827) went one step further. his words are remembered as “Laplace’s Demon”:

- QUOTE - "We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. 

An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, 

if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; 

for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes." (Essai philosophique sur les probabilités, 1814) -END QUOTE -

The first statement is the killer here:”We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. “

Everything that happens is part of an enormous causal chain. If we were able to know all causal relations, we could predict the future.

However, this predictability is not our greatest worry. When determinism is true, the future would be inevitable, that is, there exists only one possible future, which makes free will an elusion.

The contemporary American philosopher Peter van Inwagen (1942) has summed up the challenge of determinism to free will thus:

If determinism is true, he says, then our acts are the consequence of laws of nature and events in the remote past.

Since it is not up to us what went on before we were born,and neither it is up to us what the laws of nature are,

it would therefore follow that the consequences of these things, including our present acts, are not up to us.

And it just seems obvious that we can not be responsible  for what is not up to us. And that  is what freedom of will implies: the responsibility of our actions.

If all this reasoning holds and all these philosophical observations are right, then we apparently live in the only possible world, which finds its origin in the Big Bang.

No freedom of will. We are just the result of universal causality, if you may believe these philosophers. An interesting observation.

But at the root of our problem is not so much the issue of determinism. The root of scientific scepticism about free will is materialism.

So, in fact is our question: can we be a materialist and yet assume the existence of freedom of will?

Thank you all again…. It is your turn now…. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] CB Axel: That's what I've been saying all along.

[13:19] herman Bergson: and that is...?

[13:19] druth Vlodovic: and you couldn't have done anything else

[13:19] herman Bergson: CB?

[13:19] CB Axel: The big bang set everything in motion and every electrical impulse going through our brains are the result of everything that happened then.

[13:20] herman Bergson: You mean all that is happening is already determined from the moment of the big Bang, CB?

[13:20] CB Axel: Yep

[13:20] druth Vlodovic: mind you this also obviates God from responsibility for our fates, so there is no one to blame

[13:21] CB Axel: We're all off the hook.

[13:21] herman Bergson: But isnt tha counter intuitive?

[13:21] CB Axel: Our lives can be blamed on physics.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but would that already had determined that for ex i would have gone playing floor-ball with my friends before today?

[13:21] CB Axel: How so?

[13:21] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita.

[13:22] herman Bergson: so we are just cogs in a machien, CB?

[13:22] CB Axel: Or accidents of nature.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but how can you determine from start sort of infinite events for billions and billions of things including us from the beginning of time?

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds impossible

[13:23] herman Bergson: no...no accidents for that assumes randomness...

[13:23] CB Axel: We can't. That's why we think we have free will.

[13:23] druth Vlodovic: you roll the snowball down the hill, you can't know where it will go but it's path is predetermined from the moment you let go regardless

[13:23] herman Bergson: so...free will is an illusion, CB?

[13:23] CB Axel: Yes

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is correct

[13:24] CB Axel: And yes, druth.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the speed and direction and the surface it rolls on plus the incline and so

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is logical

[13:24] herman Bergson: Ahh..ok....then why don't you sit back and do nothing from now on?

[13:24] herman Bergson: why should you....

[13:24] druth Vlodovic: boring

[13:24] CB Axel: I've been considering it.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that can be determined mathematically

[13:24] herman Bergson: all is determined...

[13:25] CB Axel: But apparently, it has been determined that eventually I'll get hungry.

[13:25] herman Bergson: CB might say...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but our own actions? can they be determined like that from start? Everyone of them

[13:25] druth Vlodovic: the creatures that decided to do that died out, we are what is left, so far...

[13:25] herman Bergson: I could lean back indeed...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like a prerecorded videotape

[13:25] herman Bergson: because you say so...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is an interesting idea for sure

[13:25] herman Bergson: for that is allinthe causal chain of events in my life

[13:26] herman Bergson: so from now on CB is glued to her chair :-)

[13:26] CB Axel: All the decisions we make in life come from the chemical changes in our brains. And those changes are made by changes that came before.

[13:26] druth Vlodovic: well, then we start looking for butterflies, things or forces from outside the universe that might create variation

[13:27] herman Bergson: ahhhhCB....!!!

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ionly have one question for you.....

[13:27] CB Axel: I won't necessarily not move. I can't know for certain what I will do because I don't know how the changes will occur.

[13:27] herman Bergson: WHAT set those chancel changes in your brain into action???

[13:28] CB Axel: Everything that has gone before.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but if I do like this now?

[13:28] CB Axel: That has been predetermined. °͜°

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this i came up with just some seconds ago now

[13:29] CB Axel: So you think.

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still predetermined?

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i would dance

[13:29] CB Axel: Yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: THAT Bejiita is the result of what all has gone before in your (S)Life,,,it seems

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the attack at Zaveltem?....

[13:29] druth Vlodovic: yes,it is the result of how your personality reacts to the ideas,combined with your current understanding of available resources

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting idea as said

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm to some degree at least i d say

[13:30] druth Vlodovic: not really

[13:30] druth Vlodovic: I'm afraid that leaving the argument there seems to end it, nothing else to say, that I can imagine

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lot of things go together to create our actions

[13:30] CB Axel: Unless there are other universes that were created by something other than our big bang acting upon our universe, it's all just physics.

[13:31] herman Bergson: INteresting....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so the terrosrists can't help it? it it just determined?

[13:31] CB Axel: I'm willing to accept other universes out there messing with us. °͜°

[13:31] druth Vlodovic: other than refutations has anyone said anything more about that?

[13:32] CB Axel: Have I stunned you all into silence?

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:32] CB Axel: Or have you given up all hope?

[13:32] herman Bergson: complicated discussion....:-)

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe complicated but interesting concept

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it for sure make my head spin faster the the LHC beams

[13:33] CB Axel: Poor Bejiita. I feel like I've been attacking him with science.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhe

[13:33] herman Bergson: if youbeliev ein absolute determinism we aren't persons here..just actining machines

[13:33] CB Axel: Or what passes for science in my feeble, but pre-determined brain. LOL

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, we would be like pre programmed robots then if this is determinism

[13:33] CB Axel: Not machines. That implies a builder of the machine.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....

[13:34] CB Axel: More like atoms in the air wafted by breezes caused by the heat of the sun.

[13:34] herman Bergson: so ..where to start?

[13:34] herman Bergson: any suggestions about their origin, CB?

[13:35] CB Axel: Whatever caused the big bang.

[13:35] CB Axel: Chuck Lorre? LOL

[13:35] herman Bergson: Deosnt work...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:35] herman Bergson: the Big BAng theory is a product of the human brain only

[13:35] CB Axel: He created the TV show The Big Bang Theory.

[13:35] herman Bergson: not an empircal fact

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): someone with a heck of lust for dynamite it have to be for sure!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:35] CB Axel: Oh, crap. Herman. You got me there.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:36] CB Axel: Well played, sir. °͜°

[13:36] CB Axel: You may have saved free will.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Thank you CB :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:36] herman Bergson: Maybe I have....

[13:36] CB Axel: LMAO

[13:36] herman Bergson: for that willbe our next target....

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahaha

[13:36] CB Axel: I love these discussions and the things they make me think about.

[13:37] herman Bergson: saving ourselves from determinism :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its awesome!

[13:37] CB Axel: Cool!

[13:37] herman Bergson: Guess we all got the picture now :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] CB Axel: I'm not trying to mess with you here. This is just something I've been thinking about since we started on free will.

[13:37] herman Bergson: so..thank you all again...:-)

[13:37] CB Axel: Thank you for indulging me, Herman.

[13:38] Guestboook van tipjar stand: CB Axel donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:38] herman Bergson: Love it CB :-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^