618: Spinoza and Descartes

Yesterday I sat on a terrace in Leiden. I had a clear view at the historic building of the University of Leiden, which Spinoza must have visited.

  

Sometime between 1656 and 1661 it appears that Spinoza did some formal study of philosophy at the University of Leiden. 

  

The Dutch Republic was the first place where Cartesianism took hold, having been introduced in 1640 by Regius, 

  

a professor of medicine at the University of Utrecht. Cartesianism, however, was highly controversial.

  

In 1642 the university forbade the teaching of Cartesianism. Later in the 1640s there were similar controversies at the University of Leiden. 

  

In 1646 Heereboord, a professor of logic at that university, defended the Cartesian method of doubt as a way of achieving certainty. 

  

Revius, a professor of theology at Leiden, replied that the method of doubt would lead to atheism…

  

There is the big word again: Atheism. Get your philosophy associated with that and you were a “dead” man in those days.

  

As you see in our timetable Descartes died, when Spinoza was only 28. And , of course, he took part in the discourse about Descartes’ philosophical ideas.

  

Descartes wanted to formulate absolute certainty as a foundation for science. He found this in what he called “clear and distinct” perceptions.

  

Even when he would be deceived constantly by some malicious demon, he can not deceive us about the fact that we think, which leads to the indubitable certainty of our existence.

  

These clear and distinct perceptions are only indubitable so long as he is attending to them, Descartes thought.  As soon as they fall out of awareness, the doubt can creep back in. 

  

Once again, he can begin to wonder whether it was an evil demon who caused him to believe in the certainty of these truths. 

  

Descartes' solution is to bring God into the picture. By proving that God is the cause of our clear and distinct perception, 

  

and that, further, God is perfect in every way and thus no deceiver, he will be able to secure lasting certainty for clear and distinct perceptions.

  

Descartes uses what is called the ontological argument. It has shown up in many forms already during history and still is used.

  

His argument goes as follows: (1) Our idea of God is of a perfect being, (2) it is more perfect to exist than not to exist, (3) therefore, God must exist.

  

In Descartes’ days it was an obvious matter, that everybody had an idea of god in his mind. However, nowadays reality shows something different.

  

We do not all have a clear and distinct innate idea of God as a being of infinite perfection. The only people 

  

who have this idea are those who were raised in cultures where the notion of a single and perfect supreme being was prevalent.

  

Descartes believed that we cannot fail to have this idea, because he thinks it is innate. Because our idea of God is of an infinite being, it must have infinite objective reality. 

  

Next, Descartes appeals to an innate logical principle: something cannot come from nothing, which brings us to a quintessential philosophical issue of those days: causality.  

Our clear and distinct ideas are the effects of a cause, which however is also an effect of another cause which cause is…….ad infinitum.

  

For some reason philosophers felt forced to assume that reality was a continuous sequence of cause and effect.

  

Understandable, when this belief already existed among the old Greek philosophers. besides that, in a way this assumption was confirmed by the calculable causal behaviour of the planets.

  

Somewhere in time there had to have been the first push to set the machinery in motion, was a reasonable assumption in those days.

  

So there had to be a first cause and what is a better candidate for that then the uncaused cause, that is, god.

    

Of course this is just in a nutshell one of the numerous points of debat in those days and I guess Spinoza wasn’t satisfied with the answers Descartes thought of.

    

To mention just on other hot issue: how and why did a perfect god create an imperfect being, as man is, if he could have done better?

   

Spinoza wasn’t an admirer of such a god and probably neither of Descartes’ solution for this problem.

  

Thank you…feel free to ask questions or add your thoughts to our discussion… ^_^

  

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html
Dan Garrett, (ed.), “Cambridge Companion to Spinoza” (2001)

The Discussion

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i dont see that in these past 400 years the question has changed that much

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or the discussion

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe ways of looking at it

[13:23] herman Bergson: I wonder....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:23] herman Bergson: the absolute causality...the idea of a first mover....

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still prevails

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like the big bangtheory

[13:24] herman Bergson: to contradict that they immediately will yell QUANTM MECHANICS ^_^

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:24] herman Bergson: Everybody knows that the big bang theories just a metaphor...

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but even many of those scientists still have the first mover in the bak of their heads

[13:24] herman Bergson: at least in my opinion.....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no one can be sure if thats ever happened, like dark matter

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Gemma.....but that is because of the cognitive limitations of our brain

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still they are sure 90 % of everything in universe is something we cant see feel or measure, otherwise galaxies would fly apart

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: @gemma - yes they just scale it down ;)

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or is it just a grave miscalculation?

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we cant have done that when scientists are so sure

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope they figure that part out before we die

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i doubt it

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: me too

[13:26] CB Axel: I wouldn't hold my breath. °͜°

[13:26] herman Bergson: But we see the world as our brain let's us see it....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:26] herman Bergson: Evolutionary it is enough to survive...

[13:27] herman Bergson: Kant already felt the problem.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: Like the empiricists....

[13:27] herman Bergson: our only reality is our sensory experience....

[13:27] herman Bergson: which we interpret....

[13:28] herman Bergson: and we deduce from them our conclusions....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Descartes mistrusted all sensory experience....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:28] herman Bergson: can all be a dream.....

[13:28] herman Bergson: or illusion....

[13:29] CB Axel: If this is a dream, I hope I wake up soon.

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: well he is pretty much a prethinker of what brain researchers are testing in some parts ;)

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too late i think

[13:29] herman Bergson: and thence he believed in what the brain did....THINK....that is existence

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we live in the MATRIX!

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:29] CB Axel: The problems with relying only on our senses is that they're so limited.

[13:30] CB Axel: I wonder what philosopher butterflies talk about.

[13:30] herman Bergson: That was indeed  toying with such philosophical ambiguities Bejiita :-)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe cb

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:30] herman Bergson: None i can say, CB

[13:31] herman Bergson: Unless they are in your stomach :-)

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the idea that created the Matrix series is indeed old

[13:31] CB Axel: They have such a different view of the world being able to see into the infrared.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but those films were an eye opener for this concept in general for most of us

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes and some in ultraviolet too

[13:32] herman Bergson: But they are not conscious of their existence CB

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and dogs hear higher frequencies then we do

[13:32] CB Axel: Did they tell you that? LOL

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and sure smell much better

[13:32] herman Bergson: Not a single butterfly can say...Hey I see the world

[13:32] herman Bergson: In a way yes...^_^

[13:33] CB Axel: But our view of the world is limited by our limited senses.

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: or in that case to our language ;)

[13:33] herman Bergson: unless you have an animistic worldview any biologist can show you why butterflies don't talk philosophy :-)

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone whispers: is consciousness only there when it can be expressed in language as we know it?

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but we can do so much more with all the information we get

[13:33] CB Axel: OK. I'll give you that one.

[13:34] herman Bergson: That depends on how you define consciousness Ciska

[13:34] CB Axel: I didn't get much sleep last night, so my brain isn't working well today.

[13:34] herman Bergson: All kinds of animals have some level of consciousness....

[13:35] herman Bergson: that is already a proven fact

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of it is amazing

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: jup but its hard  to say then if butterflies are discussing or are conscious when they use other forms of languages

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: it is

[13:35] herman Bergson: But only homo sapiens can reflect on his behaviour and wonder whether it is right or wrong what he does

[13:36] herman Bergson: Not a single other organism has that level of consciousness but we

[13:36] CB Axel: I can't believe we're discussing butterfly philosophy. I apologize for getting us into this.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its strange that it is so in a way

[13:36] CB Axel: LOL

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and only we can speak, all other animals have only one single soind like WOOF WOOOF or MIAU MIAU

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they cant say anything else

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so how can they communicate?

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they all seem to have a language

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): theier own

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that they communicate with one another

[13:37] herman Bergson: Theey communicate Bejiita....

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:37] CB Axel: My cats had a large vocabulary. They made all kinds of sounds. But let's not get into cat philosophy!

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): whales

[13:37] herman Bergson: for instance n the mating season.....but these are patterns of communication based on instinct...

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): millions of sounds each meaning something

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to each other

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess in some way they make patterns of some sort

[13:38] CB Axel: Animals communicate via body language, pheromones, and sounds.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and baby animals KNOW their own parents by sound

[13:38] CB Axel: Surely you don't only communicate with spoken, or even typed, language.

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes but not a single animal thinks...come on, let's do it in a different way for a change

[13:39] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Apes do

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i agree

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they do think

[13:39] herman Bergson: To some extend yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...they even can be self aware...

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dogs can understand what you say to them

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least some

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hwo did we get here

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what happened to descartes

[13:40] herman Bergson: But ok...we are a but off track now :-)

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he got stuck in the collider

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): turning into dark matter

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: What will be our next question is, what did Spinoza do with that god of Descartes :-)

[13:41] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah now thats a good question indeed

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am sure we will find ot

[13:41] herman Bergson: I can tell you that his ideas are very interesting regarding this issue....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess Descartes believe in god but Spinoza does not if I get it right

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next lesson

[13:42] CB Axel: Or Descartes was afraid to say he didn't believe in a god.

[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): yes

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa can be like that too so he weaved god in nicley in his ideas

[13:42] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita....my problem with this period is that this idea of a god....and a specific god too, is so deep in the system....

[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): not all were hero's like socrates

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: maybe descartes just believed in a a cause ;)

[13:43] herman Bergson: even today......

[13:43] herman Bergson: As Gemma said....same old story here ^_^

[13:43] herman Bergson: And yet I don't believe that

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, in 2016 we should know better then bellieve in anything but science and fact, not supernatural ghosts

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): people said that a long time ago

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*<♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''*<♥:*¨¨*☆

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still this is how it is in many parts of the world today

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): l'histoire se repête

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is 1200 how can we believe in ghosts

[13:44] herman Bergson: It is easily said Bejiita, but it might take  another 300 years before it makes sense to all people

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if i see a ghost and can prove its not a dream i bellieve it, but i need proof

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that this really is the case

[13:45] CB Axel: I thought it was funny that Revius was afraid that the method of doubt would lead to atheism.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so far i have dreamt about ghosts but never seen one myself

[13:45] CB Axel: It's like he was admitting that he couldn't prove there was a god.

[13:45] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I agree CB

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well no one really can

[13:45] herman Bergson: His fear was more related to the debate on how a perfect god could create such  an imperfect human

[13:46] CB Axel: Ah.

[13:46] herman Bergson: and Descartes said that god didnt do that....

[13:46] CB Axel: My argument would be that God was just messing with us.

[13:46] herman Bergson: this imperfection is the result of our free will....

[13:46] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): he must have humour

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like a crazy professor mixing chemicals until it goes KABOOOOM

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] herman Bergson: if we can control all our vices etc. we would be perfect as human being :-)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] herman Bergson: What Descartes forgot to tell us was, WHO created that free will option in us?

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we would all be boring

[13:47] CB Axel: I agree, Gemma.

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe this earth is just a test, see what will happen when he created imperfection

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:48] CB Axel: We are the beta version, Beertje?

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: So we may conclude that god did a fine job creating us so imperfect....is just for our amusement :-))

[13:48] CB Axel: Or even alpha.

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it would be boring if we were perfect

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): perfect

[13:49] herman Bergson: Perfect Beertje ^_^

[13:49] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): and perfect according to...?

[13:49] CB Axel: We'd certainly have far fewer typos.

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in all ways Chantal

[13:49] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡ CB

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Chantal

[13:49] herman Bergson: And what is that PREFECT god supposed to be....?

[13:49] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): but by who's standards Beertje?

[13:49] herman Bergson: the word is easily used, but impossible to define

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): mine ;......grins

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): :)))

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:50] herman Bergson: You're not a bad model, Beertje :-)

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed not ㋡

[13:50] herman Bergson: But I don’t want to start a modelling competition here....:-)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:51] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): and gosh are we all glad to know you Beertje... we have a few ideas about perfection too... will mail them to you ㋡

[13:51] CB Axel: lol

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:51] herman Bergson: SO we better conclude that we need another lecture on Spinoza :-)

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i will give you my mail address:)))))

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we sure do

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: heheh

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone APPLAUDS!!!

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this is gettting good

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:51] herman Bergson: and your sizes, Beertje:-)

[13:51] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you, Herman ㋡ great one

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahahah

[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you all thursday i hope

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we do

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

617: Spinoza... new ideas...

In the previous lecture I wondered, if for instance a man like Descartes ever was married. It happened that I got the answer yesterday.

  

He never was married, but he had a mistress with whom he had a daughter. Sad to say, but the little girl died when she was 5 years old.

  

Spinoza lived a private  and somewhat secluded life perhaps, it may seem, but it was  not a lonely life at all.

  

By the end of the 1650s, Spinoza, about 30 then, had established a circle of friends, the most notable of whom were Jan Rieuwertsz, 

  

a bookseller and publisher of Dutch translations of Descartes’ works, who was later to become Spinoza’s publisher; 

  

Jan Glazemaker, translator into Dutch of Descartes’works, who was later to translate most of Spinoza’s works into Dutch. 

  

Peter Balling, the Amsterdam agent of various Spanish merchants, who was to translate Spinoza’s first published work, an exposition of Descartes, into Dutch. 

  

the brothers Jan and Adriaan Koerbagh, the latter of whom died in prison for publishing Spinozistic views 

  

and Lodewijk Meyer, a prominent member of Amsterdam literary circles.

  

Many of Spinoza’s friends also had a connection with the University of Leiden,  a place where one could study Cartesian philosophy  in the late 1650s.

  

Until well into the seventeenth century, the philosophy at the universities was essentially still medieval: it practiced philosophy in scholastic manner. 

  

The scholasticism is not so marked as a movement, but rather as a certain style of philosophizing, 

  

which is dominant from the twelfth century on in Europe, and that included very diverse schools. 

  

Characteristic of scholasticism is firstly an intimate relationship of theology and philosophy, and furthermore,  in conjunction therewith, the method used. 

  

In that method the focus is on reading, commenting and discussing central authoritative texts in public discussions. 

  

Deployment of the scholastic method is not so much to develop new philosophical and scientific knowledge, 

  

but rather to clarify and transfer of already existing beliefs. The framework for these views was formed by religious faith.

  

As a small sidetrack, it may occur to you, that this scholastic method is still characteristic for the Islamic world with its Quran and imams since 1100 A.D or even earlier.

  

At present several people with new ideas, especially highly educated women, are simply murdered, at least 15 in the past two years.

  

It resembles the times, in which Descartes and Spinoza lived. The only relatively safe place in Europe was The Netherlands, if you kept a low profile.

  

But Descartes and Spinoza transcended the scholastic straitjacket and introduced new ideas in a time, where also science introduced new ideas, which destroyed dogmatic worldview.

  

Maybe there is a parallel with our present moment in history with respect to the fight between dogmatic Islamic thinking

  

and the reality of Western science and culture. Its response is killing people with new ideas, blowing up schools in Afghanistan or abduction schoolgirls in Nigeria.

  

I just want to finish with  the observation, that dogmatic religion in Europe eventually lost, but also that you have to keep in mind that this happened hardly a 50 to 100 years ago.

  

Thank you….feel free to ask questions or add your thoughts to our discussion… ^_^

  

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

Dan Garrett, (ed.), “Cambridge Companion to Spinoza” (2001)

The Discussion

[13:19] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine) claps

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she is not the only one

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how did the Netherlands become a place for thinking then

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that invited such thoughts

[13:19] herman Bergson: Good question, Gemma....

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and not other countries

[13:20] herman Bergson: one explanation could be that the Dutch were merchants....

[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes true

[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): and its a small country

[13:20] CB Axel: As I understand it, because the Netherlands was predominantly Protestant, the Church didn't control them.

[13:20] herman Bergson: merchants only choose the side of where the profits are...

[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): the u open your ears and eyes more to other countries

[13:21] herman Bergson: merchants don't discuss ideologies....just trade :-)

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): But they have to make relations to others

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Thats the key of traiding

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): good trading

[13:21] herman Bergson: besides that ..the Portuguese Jews in Amsterdam were a huge source of economic prosperity for the town

[13:22] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): true

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:22] herman Bergson: and as the saying goes....PECUNIA NON OLET....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was wondering how or why they ended up there too

[13:22] herman Bergson: Money doesnt stink :-)

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): teh other day

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:23] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): it stinks. but no one will smell it

[13:24] herman Bergson: One aspect of the situation might be that that part of the Netherlands was protestant....but devided in several factions.....

[13:24] CB Axel: Linden dollars have no smell whatsoever.

[13:24] herman Bergson: there was no ruling Church...

[13:24] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes, thats true herman

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thus more safe for new ideas

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:25] herman Bergson: So they had to be tolerant towards each other.....unless they wanted war

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the picture is clearer

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] CB Axel: I don't think Muslims are much worse than Christians. Christians today are just more subltle.

[13:25] herman Bergson: But the picture is very volatile Gemma....

[13:25] herman Bergson: in a week anther faction could become the dominant one...

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:26] herman Bergson: Mainly there were two groups....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well that is going on all over the world i think

[13:26] herman Bergson: royalists and republicans.....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look at our problem

[13:26] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes bejiita, when u are a "true" believer and do not use religion only for your things.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:28] herman Bergson: As you may have noticed...Descartes pays an important role in this moment of history....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am going to crash

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need to relog

[13:28] herman Bergson: ok Gemma :-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:28] CB Axel: Suppression of free thought is evil no matter who's god is suppressing you.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes CB

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true

[13:29] herman Bergson: ANd to some extend free thought was possible in The Netherlands of those days

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] herman Bergson: Look at this map and try to find the green spots.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: THIS is the present situation....

[13:30] CB Axel: Only two that I can see.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Indeed!

[13:31] CB Axel: Oops. Three.

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes you didn’t expect that green patch in Africa :-))

[13:31] CB Axel: Herman walked out of chat range for those of us at the back. °͜°

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:31] CB Axel: We're looking at the world map, Gemma.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Ohh I am sorry.....

[13:31] CB Axel: Looking for green spots.

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): repeat what you said over there if anything

[13:32] herman Bergson: I just asked everyone to look for the green spots on that map...

[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): sorry which map?

[13:32] CB Axel: One up in the Baltics, One in West Africa, and The Netherlands.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes i see three

[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ah thanks^^

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] herman Bergson: this one...sorry

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the one in west Africa is?

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i forget

[13:33] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): and Germany is also a spot in green?

[13:33] herman Bergson: I guess Sierra Leone

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i read that report

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh goodness i think not!!!!

[13:33] CB Axel: Belgium? Is that green, too?

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not even here all is perfect

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems

[13:34] herman Bergson: there is a fourth one ....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Estonia...

[13:34] herman Bergson: below Finland

[13:34] CB Axel: I see one down around Croatia.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow i guess it is sierra leone

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes indeed...!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa there

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): see it

[13:35] herman Bergson: I am getting more optimistic by the minute :-)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] CB Axel: Kosovo?

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes or Montenegro?

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wish it was even more green

[13:36] CB Axel: I'd like to see the US divided between north and south to see if the color would change. °͜°

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well the black countries are telling.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Still at the Medieval level...

[13:37] herman Bergson: in some respects

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we had that report as homework a couple years ago

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its so strange,

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they want to go backward in time like this

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its 2016!

[13:37] herman Bergson: No no bejiita...they dont go backward intime....

[13:37] CB Axel: I'm surprised by New Zealand. I wonder if that's because the Maori are not well treated.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess its all about power

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): repressing others

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): others

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they live still like in middle ages

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sharia laws and other crazy stuff

[13:38] herman Bergson: since ...say..1000 the most important intellectual task of the Islamic culture was to know and interprete the Quran and try to stick as close as possible to the true interpretation

[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): hi laila

[13:39] herman Bergson: every new ideea was kicked immediately as being not the true meaning of the Quran...

[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): sadly

[13:39] CB Axel: Or to a small group's true interpretation.

[13:39] herman Bergson: and it is still their culture...for centuries now

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in other words time stand still there

[13:40] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes. and they do not learn and move forward

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so long to work on it when some don’t want any change

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but some do

[13:40] herman Bergson: to some extend yes....but on the other hand they cant close their eyes for Western knowledge and technology....

[13:40] herman Bergson: so there is the conflict....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): who want to live in a world of violence and suffering?

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it looks like turkey might be going in the wrong direction too

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the ones using it as power

[13:40] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): wanting the result but do not want to learn

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....

[13:41] herman Bergson: But let me tell you a true story....

[13:41] CB Axel: Yes. Turkey has me worried.

[13:41] herman Bergson: It tells exactly how it is....

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, When i was there a while ago i saw it as a sort of safe one but not anymore

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:41] herman Bergson: We have a TV program....

[13:41] herman Bergson: A camera folows the police in their work...

[13:41] herman Bergson: A car was stopped....

[13:42] herman Bergson: a woman was using her handy which is forbidden....

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): handy?????

[13:42] herman Bergson: the was wearing  a scarf over her head....muslima...

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: cellphone

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:42] herman Bergson: cellphone

[13:43] herman Bergson: the policeman said...sorry you get a ticket...

[13:43] herman Bergson: she answered I wasn’t on the phone....

[13:43] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes, they just put it there every time

[13:43] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): looks terrible, but ok^^

[13:43] herman Bergson: I have a toothacke...and I was listneing to the Quran....against the pain....

[13:43] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol

[13:44] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ah o. THATS the reason??

[13:44] herman Bergson: the policeman said....I guess an aspirin would be more effective than listening to the Quran....

[13:44] herman Bergson: the woman answered.....

[13:44] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): well, thats also a stupid question.

[13:44] herman Bergson: You only can say that because you are not a believer.....

[13:45] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): medicine does not always help. Also the spiritual things help. We must get back the feeling of things and people

[13:45] herman Bergson: and that is essential in muslim thinking.....

[13:45] herman Bergson: all non believers are inferior to them....

[13:45] herman Bergson: all kefar have to be killed....all non believers

[13:46] CB Axel: And you think that was her point?

[13:46] herman Bergson: and that battle is raging on nowadays

[13:46] herman Bergson: Oh yes.....CB....she was very convincing in her  behavior

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful, its like the doomsday is coming, a horde of demons blowing every living thing on the planet to pieces

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): until the earth is totally dead

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:46] CB Axel: Chrisitans say the same thing about the Bible. Buddhists say it about meditation.

[13:46] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): I think there is no battle.Its a normal development of all humans. Of believng and finding your way of living

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): has to stop this madness

[13:46] herman Bergson: I don't think so, Bejiita....:-)

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: no herman  - I would not say that in that case- that woman for sure did not want to kill the policeman - she wanted to follower her religion - but she should have done by putting the quoran on her cd in her car radio

[13:47] CB Axel: I agree, Ciska.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lok what ISIS is doing, they re nuts

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thehy have nothing to do with muslims

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully they will be stopped

[13:47] herman Bergson: A lot of people in Islamic countries also see that they only can improve their standard of living when they adopt new ideas....

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: so the ticket was right - but it wasn' t the officers business either to tell her how she has to ease her pain

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are not religious

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they have their own crazy ideas

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they just say it is for religion

[13:48] CB Axel: Exactly, Ciska.

[13:48] herman Bergson: that is right Ciska ....he just suggested an other option to her

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that is the problem, Islam in its basic form i don’t think is evil but then some interpret it wrongly, create their own version and then we get things like IS

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: well o

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: no herman

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: he judged her possibility

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and taught her the right one ,)

[13:49] CB Axel: I think I would have to hear the actual exchange so I could hear their tone of voice.

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: so she reacted the same way

[13:49] herman Bergson: yes indeed....

[13:49] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Ciska, what is the right religion?

[13:49] herman Bergson: on the other hand ....

[13:49] CB Axel: Seeing it would be even better. To see their facial expressions and body language.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): religion is a complex subject for sure

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well some believe meditation will cure a head ache or any other ache

[13:49] herman Bergson: listening to the Quran could have a placebo effect for the woman

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or anyone

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: there is no such thing as a right religion ;)

[13:49] CB Axel: Hermine, the right religion is what's right for the individual.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:50] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Ja Ciska^^

[13:50] CB Axel: If people what to believe in a magical man in the sky, fine. I just wish they'd leave me alone.

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: of course herman maybe a better one then aspirin

[13:50] herman Bergson: could be indeed Ciska....wouldn’t surprise me

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: so that’s not for the policeman to judge  - the policeman’s judging is right about it takes her attention away to hold a cellphone and drive

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: and thats it

[13:51] herman Bergson: so it is Ciska :-)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true, fiddling with phone and drive is insanely dangerous

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): should not be done for any reason

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): against the law here

[13:51] herman Bergson: But my point was actually that Islam had a strong tendency to take the attitude that non believers are inferior beings

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the crazy thing its not illegal in Sweden

[13:52] CB Axel: It's like something I read once: Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it. But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around. And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): unless you caused an accident and then its too late

[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah thats so true CB

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:52] herman Bergson: Like in Spinoza's days and even in our days atheists are inferior human beings with no moral standards

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see

[13:54] herman Bergson: We'll continue our research on Spinoza next Tuesday....

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed  :-)

[13:54] herman Bergson: and hello Laila ^_^

[13:54] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): thank u herman

[13:54] Laila Schuman: hello

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman - thanx all ㋡

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then ㋡

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here tuesday if i get home in time

[13:55] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): it was interesting as always

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu tuesday

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you Daruma :-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye all

[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma :-)

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: bye all ㋡

616: Spinoza, the person......

When we talk about great scientists or great philosophers, we always are talking about their achievements or thoughts.

  

In fact we actually ignore the human being, the person in this context completely. To some extend this makes sense of course.

  

Take for instance, Albert Einstein. His theories were a revolution in physics. Rumours tell, however, 

that as a person, he wasn’t really nice, but  how does that relate to his ideas about physics…Not at all of course.

But when it concerns philosophy, it is a somewhat different situation. There is a close relation between the person and how he thinks about e.g. metaphysics or ethics.

This makes the person of Spinoza so interesting, for due to his philosophical ideas he had to endure a lot and on the other hand also chose for a certain lifestyle.

What kind of person was this Spinoza? One the one hand he seems to have been a rather solitaire person. 

On the other hand he yet had a circle of intellectual friends around him, all men. We know at least, that he never was married.

Makes me wonder, by the way, were guys like Descartes or Leibniz or Locke ever married….just a thought ^_^

Anyway, Spinoza’s philosophical ideas had a great impact on how his life developed. To begin with he was a gifted child and a smart student.

 Spinoza was born in 1632 into the Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam in the same year Galileo published his “Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems”.

In 1656, when he was twenty-three, the synagogue expelled him for what the sentence of excommunication described as “abominable heresies” and “monstrous deeds.”

So we have to account for 23 years of personal development of which we have no real information. But in these 23 years Spinoza must have developed a strong mind of his own.

For a long time historians did not know exactly what heresies he was accused of. 

But in the mid-twentieth century, research in the archives of the Inquisition disclosed a report from a Spanish priest who had spent several months in Amsterdam. 

His report revealed that the main doctrinal charges against Spinoza were: 

(1) that he held that God exists “only philosophically”; 

(2) that he maintained that the soul dies with the body; and 

(3) that he denied that the law of Moses was a true law. 

The “monstrous deeds” probably included his unrepentant resistance to authority when threatened with excommunication.

Spinoza was then only 23. What has happened to him in those past 23 years, that his philosophy conflicted so much with the tradition in which he was educated.

It is speculation, but try to imagine the intellectual world Spinoza lived in. What we today regard as common knowledge must have been revolutionary for him.

The whole worldview was put upside down by Galileo Galilei. Man no longer was the center  of the universe.

Imagine you are a 16 year old boy. You have an extremely bright mind and you have strong opinions of your own.

And then there is a Descartes, who teaches you to doubt everything to finally reach the conclusion, that the only absolute certainty there is, is you yourself, because you think.

Empirical science emerges stimulated by an innovative combination of experiment and mathematics.

For us this is common knowledge, but for a gifted, smart and intellectual young boy around 1650 this must have been sensational and exciting new insights.

Equally exciting must have been to witness, that the dogmatic religions tried to mute this new development of human knowledge and failed.

It may have been a feeling of looking at exciting new vistas, the unwillingness  to give them up in favour of obsolete dogmatic religious ideas,

which made Spinoza the philosopher he eventually became, a man who signed his letters with the word “Caute”, which means “Beware”.

Thank you for your attention….the floors is all yours ^_^

The discussion

[13:19] CB Axel: What was he warning his readers to beware of? The new ideas or how having the new ideas be punished?

[13:20] herman Bergson: He hardly published anything during his lifetime....most was postume....

[13:20] CB Axel: Hmmm. Why was that?

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in those days it was not done to think for oneselves

[13:20] herman Bergson: I guess he knew he couldn't fight the establishment of theologians of his time

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i bet

[13:21] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Tragic

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what did he do for a living ??

[13:21] herman Bergson: Spinoza definitely knew that if he published his ideas he would be rposecuted...

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he made glasses for lenzes

[13:21] herman Bergson: Spinoza grinded lenses, Gemma....

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:21] herman Bergson: for telescopes and microscopes

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he maybe died of the dust of the glas

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so understood the huge and the tiny

[13:22] herman Bergson: And I guess he also did some teaching

[13:22] herman Bergson: yes indeed Beertje....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders what his father did when he was expelled from the synagogue

[13:22] CB Axel: What a shame that he had all these great ideas but couldn't safely discuss them.

[13:23] herman Bergson: It was generally assumed he died of tuberculosis, but today they think he died of inhaling that dust of glass all the time

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:23] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I have islamic scientists in the exact same position in SC, CB

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he must have been very loneley

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaw

[13:23] CB Axel: I wonder if he had friends he could share with.

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope so

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think he did

[13:24] herman Bergson: No Spinaza wasn't lonely at all....he had a vivid social life

[13:24] CB Axel: Chantal, there are people in the US who can't discuss science with "Christians."

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i mean lonely in his thoughts

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not all cb

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): certain elements

[13:24] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): yes religion seems to have issues with people thinking for themselves or even critically

[13:24] herman Bergson: He had a number of friends CB....intellectuals

[13:25] CB Axel: I make a distinction between Christians and "Christians."

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i saw

[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some others might not understand that tho

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ? CB

[13:25] herman Bergson: Lonely in his thoughts....interesting point Beertje....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are certain churches that still believe the world was created in 7 days

[13:26] herman Bergson: The main point is that Spinoza was an atheist (htough I do not like the word)

[13:26] CB Axel: Christians celebrate the intellect their god gave them and aren't afraid to use it.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that earth is flat

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:26] CB Axel: "Christians" don't think for themselves and condemn those who do.

[13:26] CB Axel: What is wrong with the word atheist?

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): again cannot argue with firm strong faith

[13:26] herman Bergson: The modernety of Spinoza is thta we still do not know how to understand atheism

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): impossible

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): atheism = belief in science and fact, not things you have really not seen like gods and magic

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how i define it

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when I see I believe

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not before

[13:28] herman Bergson: ok..hold on....

[13:28] herman Bergson: CB asked: What is wrong with the word atheist?

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to many it is frightening

[13:28] herman Bergson: The point is that the normal human condition is that you just exist.....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: the Cartesian Cogito...

[13:29] herman Bergson: The Darwinian evolution....

[13:29] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Bejiita: according to wiki: Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

[13:29] herman Bergson: there is nothing in his existence which indicates the existence of anybody/anything beyond his self consciousness....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds also correct definition

[13:30] herman Bergson: so in fact there not a single reason to believe in more than yourself....

[13:30] herman Bergson: however.....

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if there is a a-theist, there must be a theist too?

[13:31] herman Bergson: we have questions.....and we want answers...also to questions which we cannot find an answer to

[13:31] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Beertje: Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists [Wiki]

[13:31] herman Bergson: and in the psychology of the human mind we go through an animistic phase when we are about 4 years old....

[13:32] CB Axel: I'm still in that phase. lol

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Chantal:)

[13:32] herman Bergson: we believe in elves, that animals can talk, Santa...and so on...

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I still believe in elves, and in Sinterklaas ( en zwarte Piet )

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: and this tendency of the human mind....to create answers to questions of which they just have to say WE DO NOT KNOW still exists.....thence leading to all kinds of transcendent answers...which we call religions....

[13:34] CB Axel: I believe my computer thinks for itself and is trying to drive me insane.

[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Hello Somnus

[13:34] herman Bergson: The human being wants CERTAINTY.....an answer to the meaning of his life....WHY do I exist....

[13:34] CB Axel: Hello, Somnus.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Somnus

[13:34] CB Axel: I would like to know those things.

[13:34] Somnus Doctorow: greetings all sorry to be late

[13:35] CB Axel: But I don't think there is any meaning or reason to exist.

[13:35] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I am with you, CB

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes CB....and we just have no answer....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:35] herman Bergson: Our selfconsciousness is just a product of evolution......

[13:35] CB Axel: Well, I also just this minute found out that and SL friend of mine died suddenly and unexpectedly.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear

[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): oh CB :(

[13:36] herman Bergson: so...all of a sudden there we were and became conscious of the fact that we exist....

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so I'm Sorry!

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is all....

[13:36] Somnus Doctorow: sorry to hear

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is always a shock

[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Huggles you

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaaaw :(

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Hugs CB

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that was sad to  hear

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:37] herman Bergson: A sad thing CB....like I lost my best SL friend Pearl...

[13:38] CB Axel nods

[13:38] herman Bergson: But you say CB: But I don't think there is any meaning or reason to exist.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Spinoza would disagree with you here

[13:39] herman Bergson: as you do yourself actually ^_^

[13:39] CB Axel: Do i?

[13:39] herman Bergson: The essence of our existence as an organism is that we want to preserve our existence…even reproduce....

[13:39] herman Bergson: It is just built into the system....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Like darwin observed too...

[13:40] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): but for the human personally that isn't the answer

[13:40] herman Bergson: So you do not jump now from a skyscraper CB....

[13:41] CB Axel: That would hurt too much.

[13:41] herman Bergson: simple because it is counter intuitive in relation to being a living organism

[13:41] CB Axel: I'm not against dying. I just don't want to be in pain or make a mess.

[13:42] herman Bergson: For all living organisms onthis earth this isn't an issue at all.....except for us with our knwledge of the fact that we exist

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the problem

[13:42] herman Bergson: that isjust about the way you could die CB....

[13:43] CB Axel: So what else is there? Death happens.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Liek we have a mind, we have like all living organisms on this planet a will to live...

[13:43] herman Bergson: and we try to avoid pain and enjoy pleasure....

[13:44] herman Bergson: And on top of that we have something we call culture.....and thence religions....

[13:44] herman Bergson: all together a rather complex picture ^_^

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that we are

[13:45] herman Bergson: And Spinoza was a man who understood this picture and the consequences of it.....

[13:46] Somnus Doctorow: but are all these things truly needed for survival?

[13:46] herman Bergson: This makes his ideas still valuable

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will be very interesting

[13:46] Somnus Doctorow whispers: species survival?

[13:46] herman Bergson: Not a single primate has a culture Somnus..:-)

[13:47] Somnus Doctorow: but is culture necessary?

[13:47] herman Bergson: only we have as the result of that specific twist of evolution that gave us self-consciousness

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): life would be boring otherwise i think

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I would think humans cant avoid it

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but culture is so much

[13:47] CB Axel: Culture is necessary to maintain civilisation. It's bonding.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...that makes me think of something.....

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:48] herman Bergson: I often wondered why we have art....

[13:48] Somnus Doctorow: some say self consciousness is not necessary to survive, i have even read opinions that say its all about continuing the next generation of DNA

[13:48] Somnus Doctorow: that DNA is immortal the rest is superfluous

[13:48] herman Bergson: and I concluded that it is to stimulate our nervoussystem constantly....to challenge it.....we need that..biologically

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why we have art, because we are creative I guess, its same as with these computer games i design and program, thats my art

[13:49] herman Bergson: I think you are right Somnus....

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I want to create something from my mind

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and store it permanently as an idea

[13:49] Somnus Doctorow: listens

[13:49] herman Bergson: ants exists already for millions of years...not a single one ever discovered the Cogito, ergo sum :-)

[13:50] CB Axel whispers: You don't know that. LOL

[13:50] herman Bergson grins

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, these early cave paintings are from beginnng of man

[13:50] CB Axel: The just haven't mentioned it to you.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): are you sure ?? sometimes i wonder yes cb

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have always created soem form of art I think

[13:51] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...to stimulate the senses....we need that...

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: deprive a man from external stimuli and he goes mad

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it goes i think from that time to me having a crazy dream and when i get up i draw and program it into one of my games, same thing only my way is more advanced

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but same idea I think

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a basic drive for us to do

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to be creative

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same goes for tools

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and machines

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i hope to be here thursday

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for more about spinoza

[13:53] herman Bergson: Good plan Gemma ^_^

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you, Herman ㋡

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa this is starting good I think

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] herman Bergson: Then I'll save the rest fro Thursday :-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looking forward to that

[13:54] herman Bergson: So thank you all again for this inspiring discussion....

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ..... ^_^