630: A personal Spinoza.....

In my previous lecture I already mentioned it. When you ask the question WHY writes Spinoza all this,

   

then one of the answers, in my opinion is, because he wants to write against all those ideas of rabbis and christian theologians.

   

I find that an important aspect of Spinoza’s philosophy, because he does something, which was not philosophically fashionable in his time.

   

He writes to clarify the route to a good life, to live as a virtuous person, the primary goal of philosophy of the Ancient philosophers as I mentioned in a previous lecture.

  

So you can look at Spinoza’s work from two perspectives. The traditional one is the academic one,

   

which means extensive analyses of his texts to unearth, what he really meant by this or that theory, statement or concept.

   

A legitimate scientific and valuable work, but in the case of Spinoza I take another approach. I don’t focus on the books, the literal texts.

   

Spinoza has come to life for me. I visited his house where he lived from 1661 to 1663. Pictures are here on the wall.

  

Next week I am going to visit the house of Christiaan Huygens (1629 -1695), mathematician and scientist, in Voorburg.

    

Spinoza was a close friend of Huygens and has visited that house frequently. Huygens is remembered especially for his wave theory of light and Spinoza grinded lenses, you see.

I focus on the human being, on the person Baruch de Spinoza was, all the more because of the way he lived his life.

     

Imagine a growing boy, highly intelligent, extremely skilled in logical reasoning, who asks his teachers, well educated and respected rabbis serious questions.

   

And time and again, where Spinoza seeks knowledge, he gets stifled with the dogmas of a religion and is reprimanded severely.

  

Ultimately expelled from his community in the most severe and humiliating way. Just imagine such a personal history.

  

Just try to imagine debating with a Mormon or a Witness of Jehovah and you know the feeling. Spinoza may have had to face such an atmosphere during his whole schooltime.

   

The reason why I look at Spinoza like this, may be based on the the personal history, that I easily can identify myself with the path Spinoza had followed.

  

Now I find a materialist explanation of our reality the most plausible and  rational theory too. 

   

And now Spinoza has to explain, lacking all neuro-scientific knowledge we have today, how matter can have emotions and what their nature is.

  

Regarding this matter Spinoza has to tackle two serious issues. 

First, he’ll attempt to show, that human beings follow the order of nature. Human beings, on Spinoza’s view, have causal natures 

  

similar in kind to other ordinary objects, so they ought to be analyzed and understood in the same way as the rest of nature.

  

Second, Spinoza attempts to show that moral concepts, such as the concepts of good and evil, virtue, and perfection, 

  

have a basis in human psychology. Just as human beings are no different from the rest of nature, so moral concepts are no different from other concepts.

  

To convince you, Spinoza gives a detailed account of what he calls the human “affects”, the actions and passions of the human mind.

   

We’ll do that in a next lecture. For now I follow Gemma’s suggestion to offer you a week of vacation

  

so that we can escape from the annual annoyance created by switching to Daylight Saving Time in different timezones on different times on this globe.

   

Thank you… ^_^

  

The Discussion

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah good to know

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): time change always makes trouble

[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): only one week?^^

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:17] .: Thank you… ^_^

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): spring is bad usually

[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): i have in mnd it was longer

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it causes a mess so better take a break there maybe

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too 2 weeks or so but maybe shorter now

[13:18] herman Bergson: yes Daruma..usually it is two weeks...:-(((

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: the back change is shorter

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): It think Europe starts later than last year.It was never end of October t change timein europe

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: when I recall It right

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): spring is usually two to three

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): weeks

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ah ok

[13:19] herman Bergson: But Daylight Saving time isn’t the subject of  my talk of today :-)

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:19] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): But first time I have one hour more birthday this year^^

[13:19] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ok herman;-)

[13:19] herman Bergson: Spinoza is way more interesting to discuss

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so Spinoza believed in psychology

[13:19] herman Bergson: How can you believe in psychology?

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as a reason for good and evil

[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): perhaps being interest in

[13:20] herman Bergson: Psychology is the theory about human behavior...and he ha done :-)

[13:20] Alina Gabilondo: i did not understand the question??

[13:20] Alina Gabilondo: believe is psychology

[13:20] herman Bergson: ahh that is what you meant Gemma

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i mean accepted it as a reason  for good or evil ys

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and other emotions

[13:21] herman Bergson: In other words....the concept of good and evil are psychological matters....

[13:21] Laoin Xaris: psychology is what motivates reason for all humans

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all in the mind and not a work of god or the devil of you do good or bad things you could say

[13:21] Alina Gabilondo: as studies??

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): psychology is a way to understand human behavior

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but was it acceptable at that time

[13:22] Alina Gabilondo: i do not think so

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): by philosophers

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): probably not

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:22] herman Bergson: Oh yes....

[13:22] Alina Gabilondo: it is not everywhere acceptable even now

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what I was talking about

[13:22] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): perhaps it wasn’t called like that. the first steps were made these days.

[13:22] herman Bergson: it was quite common to write about the emotions and passions of man

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but was it the devil

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that caused them

[13:23] herman Bergson: Actually...if you take the Stoics., their main subject WAS human psychology

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes

[13:23] herman Bergson: they didnt call it thus...

[13:23] herman Bergson: but human emotions and drives and passions were their field of action

[13:24] herman Bergson: So, the psychology of man has been an issue through the ages

[13:24] herman Bergson: It was not a separate science as it is now...

[13:24] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): I think thats a question of all times. why and how we live, react think and feel i life.

[13:24] Alina Gabilondo: yes that is why comment do u believe

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): everyone wants to know why.

[13:25] herman Bergson: that came to live with Freud about 1890 or so

[13:25] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): true

[13:25] Laoin Xaris: but that was when they wanted to discover the dysfunction of emotions

[13:25] herman Bergson: But man has always wondered about the question....what drive me...what motivates me to my actions?

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so

[13:26] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Asking questions is a human nature i think.  We cannot live without it

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Laoin....thta was the moment that dysfunctional behavior finally was seen as a disease...

[13:26] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): But asking the right questions is a kind of art^^^

[13:26] herman Bergson: not as being posseded by a demon or so

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) shouts: so I'm Sorry! i have to poof... see you soon i hope

[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): bye gema

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu gemma

[13:27] herman Bergson: wow..never seen Gemma poof...fabulous :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡ was fast

[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol

[13:28] herman Bergson: now everybody wonders...WHY???? :-))

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:28] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): why gemma poofed away?:)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause it looked like i wanted to eat her maybe

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i would not do that hehe

[13:28] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ;-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im a nice demon/zombie

[13:29] herman Bergson: ok..back to business :-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: Any questions left about this lecture?

[13:29] herman Bergson: (No get you a day off :-))

[13:30] CB Axel: So Spinoza wanted to study human behavior and motivation and the church would rather just blame it on the devil?

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a bit to think about indeed but indeed we have probably always wanted to try to understand ourselves in some way

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): blaming our actions on god or devils and demons however is probably not a really good idea

[13:31] herman Bergson: In a way you could say that indeed CB

[13:31] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): And did Spinoza really make a change?

[13:31] CB Axel: It changed his life. It got him excommunicated.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully he did

[13:31] herman Bergson: I think he would Daruma...

[13:32] herman Bergson: it is happening today, what he described...

[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Yes ok. When someones life changes, also things around him change.

[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): true herman

[13:32] CB Axel: I'm sure he got a lot of people thinking even if they didn't speak up about their thoughts.

[13:33] herman Bergson: a lot of behavioral disorders are now  said to be caused by bodily processes...

[13:33] herman Bergson: most favourite one is ADHD

[13:33] CB Axel: The religious would just say that those bodily processes are caused by the devil.

[13:34] herman Bergson: His thoughts were feared CB...believe me...

[13:34] Alina Gabilondo: i am sure

[13:34] herman Bergson: therefor we got that nice movie The Exorcist :-))

[13:34] herman Bergson: Loved it :-)

[13:34] CB Axel: It gave me nightmares. °͜°

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ieks

[13:35] CB Axel: Don't watch it alone late at night.

[13:35] herman Bergson: so you loved it too:-))

[13:35] CB Axel: Yeah. Like I love flying zombies. LOL

[13:35] herman Bergson: a sidetrack.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: There was a computer joke....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa time for some halloween stile films now indeed

[13:35] herman Bergson: listen...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): style

[13:36] herman Bergson: you got a screen with the text..Look at the dot intensely for 30 seconds....

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: bejiita we watched a Swedish documentary from 1922 in sl 2 weeks ago - that was soo cool

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: it was about witches

[13:36] CB Axel: Shh. I want to hear the computer joke.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:37] herman Bergson: when you did...all of a sudden that picture of that girl form the exorcist appeared....starteld you like hell :-)

[13:37] herman Bergson: students loved it...

[13:37] CB Axel: I saw that one! I almost wet myself.

[13:37] Laoin Xaris: i saw it with Michael jackson instead

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): accompanied with a 120 db death scream

[13:37] herman Bergson: lol..I cnan imagien CB

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hate those 'jokes '

[13:39] herman Bergson: Any questions left? :-)

[13:39] CB Axel: Nope

[13:39] herman Bergson: Then it is time for me to go and watch the Exorsist :-)))

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not sure i think i got the hang of all

[13:39] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:39] CB Axel: I love your origami cranes, Laoin. °͜°

[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): a lot. but we have to find the out by ourselves I guess;-) Psychology is such a big thing

[13:40] Laoin Xaris: ahhhh ty

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:40] Laoin Xaris: :)

629: Spinoza on Emotions explained in more detail

In my enthusiasm about the text of the introduction to his third chapter of the Ethica “On the Origin and Nature of the Emotions”

  

I expose the attending people at my previous lecture to the original words of Spinoza  himself by reading them the introduction.

  

That was too much, especially for not native english speakers. Nevertheless the text was a perfect example of the way Spinoza thinks and write.

  

So, today I’ll go into more detail with respect to this text and explain to you by means of a few crucial sentences, what Spinoza says.

   

Before you try to read Spinoza, you first have to know what his basic starting points are.

  

The first is that he is against the belief in a personal god, in other words against Judaism and Christianity.

   

The second is, that Spinoza is a materialist: there only is ONE substance. This substance isn’t chaos, but controlled by laws of nature.

  

Because laws of nature are defined by describing causal relations, everything is caused. We are modes of this one substance and thence subject to the laws of nature too.

Consequently his third starting point is that everything is determined by causal relations, also our actions. That means, there is no free will.

Further we can ask the question:Why is Spinoza writing all this? I see two reasons; his main reason is help people to find the way to a good life or to live good.

    

This immediately reveals in view of his starting points AGAINST WHO he is writing: the rabbis and christian theologians.

   

When you keep this in mind reading Spinoza a lot may become easier  to understand, almost obvious.

  

Let’s put this to the test….. The first sentence of the introduction on “On the Origin and Nature of the Emotions”:

   

“Most writers on the emotions and on human conduct seem to be treating rather of matters outside nature than of natural phenomena following nature's general laws.”

  

The whole philosophical program of Spinoza on emotions in one opening statement…..Let’s try to grasp this..

   

First question: who are those “writers”. Among others definitely those rabbis and theologians.

   

Why do they treat emotions a “matters outside nature”? That is because they have split up man in a good part and a bad part

  

and that bad part is his sinful drives, the part that is not created by god but, for instance, by himself by stealing that apple or by a devil.

  

Against this Spinoza puts the claim that emotions are natural phenomena following nature's general laws.”

  

 After some remarks on Descartes Spinoza says:

  

“For the present I wish to revert to those, who would rather abuse or deride human emotions than understand them. 

  

Such persons will, doubtless think it strange that I should attempt to treat of human vice and folly geometrically,………”

Here he returns to those “writers” and tells us that they do not understand his treating emotions “geometrically”.

The first thing that has to come to mind here is that in Spinoza’s time a revolution was taking place in science: 

  

physics had adopted mathematics as THE language to describe nature.

  

Mathematics is a collection of axioms, theorems, propositions, calculations and so on, following the basic rules of logic: a nice rational whole.

   

When you can apply the mathematical method of geometry to emotions, it only can mean that they are following natural laws too, like other material processes.

   

And then Spinoza makes his point:……

“However, such is my plan. Nothing comes to pass in nature, which can be set down to a flaw therein;”

  

In other words….away with all that nonsense of rabbis and theologians…and he goes on:…

   

“for nature is always the same, and everywhere one and the same in her efficacy and power of action; “

  

And in order to rub it those “writers” in even more he says:…

“Thus the passions of hatred, anger, envy, and so on, considered in themselves, follow from this same necessity and efficacy of nature; “

   

In other words passions and emotions can be explained in the same scientific way as all other phenomena in nature, 

  

because they are part of nature and not some flaw or something outside nature.

   

I hope this give you a better insight in what Spinoza actually means…. Thank you ^_^

The Discussion

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hah

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all is nature

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): totally agree with that

[13:23] herman Bergson: yes

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): EVERYTHING can be expressed using mathemaics, a froof of this is how a computer can simulate any physical or chemical law and computers are 100% mathematical at the core, thats why they are called computers because they calculate

[13:24] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) handing over computer to son.......

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): does he expect that believing that it  will cause people to not use the passions and emotions then?

[13:25] herman Bergson: No no...

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] herman Bergson: What he plans to do is to explain passions and emotions

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: (thank you herman I need to leave for today - have a great day or night everyone )

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i will wait to see the explanations of them and see what he says to avoiding them

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight Ciska

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): gone

[13:27] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): No, I think it is more about allowing causes =, such as emotions to be followed by what Spinoza would label as 'rational'. hatred leds to hatred, love to love, it makes sense to follow those emotions. you can not escape the one substance as much as it is you, so it is a redundant effort to escape emotions

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): love pasion and sex are for ex not sins but basic human needs

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all natural, while the religious people tries to deprive us from what makes us feel good and happy

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I mean "misuse of them

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by calling it sins

[13:28] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): More complex than that. I think spinoza did rather well without having much of a social life XD

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he had a social life

[13:28] herman Bergson: The idea that Spinoza did not have much of a social life is questionable...

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: did he keep it separate from his philosophy?

[13:29] herman Bergson: He had no women in his life....true

[13:29] herman Bergson: But he has a loyal group of friends

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did anyone ever question if he was homosexual?

[13:30] herman Bergson: one of whom even died in jail due to  holding Spinozist ideas

[13:30] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Very true. I think he liked to keep intimate social circles, having  in deep conversations, but I never took him for much of a party goer.

[13:30] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:30] herman Bergson: No indeed

[13:30] CB Axel: Introverts don't need to go to parties to socialize.

[13:30] herman Bergson: But I guess that is because he was rather attracted to stoicism...

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true CB

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it has been mentioned so many times about his friends all being male

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): could not help asking

[13:31] herman Bergson: And he was a man of controlled emotions....

[13:31] herman Bergson: except when the bother de Witt were murdered by the people....

[13:32] herman Bergson: His friend saved in fact his life on that occasion

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how?

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did he see the brothers murdered?

[13:33] herman Bergson: Spinoza had written a pamflet which he wannted to post outside....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Some title as "Extreme barbarians of barbarism....."

[13:34] herman Bergson: If he had done that they definitely would have attacked him too...his friend kept him indoors

[13:34] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Apparently he tried to date someone but she went for someone else when he was young. He also had a lot to fear about his beliefs and how people would take them. in that sense I think he was driven into appreciating solitude.

[13:34] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): But it's an entire life we're talking about, they are hard to sum up.

[13:34] CB Axel: I can relate to that.

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha on the dating

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that happens

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in fact he was hiding in Den Haag, a larger city then is own village

[13:35] herman Bergson: Probably Beertje....safer there

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hide in plain sight

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think he wasn’t really safe anywhere

[13:36] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) is back son gone

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lol\

[13:36] herman Bergson: At least he died a natural death...

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): glass dust?

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well that is awful too

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor man

[13:36] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) knows very little about Spinoza apart from he fills some of my bookshelves

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): open the books loo

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:37] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): mmmm goto too many of them

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tell us what the books say Loo

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): pick a skinny one

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[13:37] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I will

[13:38] herman Bergson: One of the reasons we discuss Spinoza here is that the neuroscientist Antonio Damasio feels close related to Spinoza's ideas on feelings and emotions

[13:38] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I know more about whom he influenced like marx and others

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i want to hear how his nature is all and all is of nature is different from pantheism

[13:38] herman Bergson: He influenced John Locke and thence the Declaration of independence of the USA

[13:39] herman Bergson: And the Constitution

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is interesting to know

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): although i wish it were clearer that we are not a Christian nation

[13:39] herman Bergson: Locke knew Spinoza's ideas very  well....he had read his works

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Not founded as such

[13:40] herman Bergson: The US is not founded as a christian nation, as far as I know...on the contrary

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but many try to say it IS

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here i mean

[13:41] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) nods

[13:41] CB Axel: Many have tried to mold it into a Christian nation.

[13:41] herman Bergson: That nay be caused by the many religious groups that fled from Europe to the New world....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:41] herman Bergson: and dominated general politics

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Large segment of citizens claim the founding fathers were alllllllll very good Christians

[13:42] herman Bergson: History shows different , I guess

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it does

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t think they read history

[13:43] herman Bergson: But to get back to the issue today....

[13:43] CB Axel: Most references to God in our mottos, songs, and pledges weren't in there until the cold war.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:43] herman Bergson: Did my lecture made it more  clear, what SPinoza says than last time? :-)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thinks so

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i understand what he is saying but want to see how he is going to apply it

[13:44] herman Bergson: An dcould your son approve the content Loo? :-)

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he must have put hours and days and months into his papers

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): son that is

[13:44] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I think so he is going on about how he influenced democracy in the background

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah there

[13:44] herman Bergson: Very true, Loo

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too bad he left

[13:45] CB Axel: As I see it, Spinoza was saying what I've been saying here. That everything that happens is because of what happened before all the way back to the beginning of time.

[13:45] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): He is a Master of philosophy his 2nd dissertation was on democracy

[13:45] herman Bergson: He is sometimes even considered the inventor of our system of democracy

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:45] CB Axel: We have no free will, because nature has determined what we do.

[13:45] herman Bergson: with his pleading for the separation of Religion and State

[13:45] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): No we can influence power and control

[13:45] herman Bergson: and freedom of speech

[13:46] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): He was chucked out of his religion

[13:46] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): being a Jew

[13:46] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): so I guess it would be painful to have your inheritance stripped

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes, Loo because I used his freedom of speech...

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess you can say this about my cold at the moment, its because every time this time of the year when it gets colder its like bacteria spread more easily and everyone around me gets sick so its unavoidable to not get it

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:47] herman Bergson: That was not allowed in those days despite of this socalled tolerance in The Netherlands

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tolerance is relative

[13:47] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) works in a hospital fat chance of staying healthy

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sleep bej

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes tolerance is relative...but to which rules Gemma?

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the rules of the time

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn culture

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it seems

[13:49] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): On that note me to..... if you want Nath can join us again and I can be possessed by a philosopher?

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is a ratther relativist point of view...:-)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i will sleep soon indeed, getting back in the shower again a while before though first to warm up a bit. Im freezing at miment

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): moment

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): go to bed

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the heat is not turned on yet

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and remember Europe changes time this weekend???

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and we do not?

[13:49] herman Bergson: He is always welcome Loo :-)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes its that time soon again

[13:50] CB Axel: That's right, Gemma.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): anyway good lecture once again

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] herman Bergson: Oh my......two weeks of chaos ahead!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so class will be one hour earlier i believe

[13:50] CB Axel: One week of unnecessary confusion thanks to the time change.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): two weeks?

[13:50] CB Axel: Only one.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one i think

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): es

[13:50] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): OK I will bring him, he says it is over a year since he studied Spinoza

[13:50] herman Bergson: only one....\o/

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might be good to have a fall break

[13:51] herman Bergson: Good idea......exactly that week....

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think so

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it never fails

[13:51] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Goodnight all

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only 22 or so show

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): night all

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh did herman dismiss?

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): beterschap Bejiita

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson smiles

[13:52] herman Bergson: I did not !

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i thought   not

[13:52] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...:-)))

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

628: On the Origin and Nature of the Emotions

Just try to get the picture: psychology didn’t exist, nor psychological research. Traumas  and neuroses…never heard of. 

  

It is 1670 and there is homo sapiens with his emotions, passions. lust.

   

Spinoza’s philosophical goal was to offer a kind of instruction to live a good life. One of the main ingredients was insight in your passions and emotions and to control them.

  

Here you should listen to Spinoza himself. Keep in mind…there only is ONE substance….nature with its laws of physics. 

  

We are modes of this one substance and thence subject to the laws of nature.

   

Now I’ll let Spinoza himself talk to you. Look at the picture of his room overhere. Imagine a man with only quill, ink and paper, some candles.No radio, television or computer or internet….

  

in a world of silence and he writes this as the introduction to his third  chapter of the Ethica “On the Origin and Nature of the Emotions”. When I had read it, I was in awe.

  

This is Spinoza himself talking to you. Take your time. Throw it in Google Translate, if it may help you understand….. Just read/listen…… 

  

“Most writers on the emotions and on human conduct seem to be treating rather of matters outside nature than of natural phenomena following nature's general laws. 

  

They appear to conceive man to be situated in nature as a kingdom within a kingdom: for they believe that he disturbs rather than follows nature's order, 

  

that he has absolute control over his actions, and that he is determined solely by himself. They attribute human infirmities and fickleness, not to the power of nature in general, 

  

but to some mysterious flaw in the nature of man, which accordingly they bemoan, deride, despise, or, as usually happens, abuse: 

  

he, who succeeds in hitting off the weakness of the human mind more eloquently or more acutely than his fellows, is looked upon as a see-er. 

  

Still there has been no lack of very excellent men (to whose toil and industry I confess myself much indebted), 

  

who have written many noteworthy things concerning the right way of life, and have given much sage advice to mankind. 

  

But no one, so far as I know, has defined the nature and strength of the emotions, and the power of the mind against them for their restraint. 

  

I do not forget, that the illustrious Descartes, though he believed, that the mind has absolute power over its actions, strove to explain human emotions by their primary causes, 

  

and, at the same time, to point out a way, by which the mind might attain to absolute dominion over them. 

  

However, in my opinion, he accomplishes nothing beyond a display of the acuteness of his own great intellect, as I will show in the proper place. 

  

For the present I wish to revert to those, who would rather abuse or deride human emotions than understand them. 

  

Such persons will, doubtless think it strange that I should attempt to treat of human vice and folly geometrically, 

  

and should wish to set forth with rigid reasoning those matters which they cry out against as repugnant to reason, frivolous, absurd, and dreadful. 

  

However, such is my plan. Nothing comes to pass in nature, which can be set down to a flaw therein; for nature is always the same, and everywhere one and the same in her efficacy and power of action; 

  

that is, nature's laws and ordinances, whereby all things come to pass and change from one form to another, are everywhere and always the same; 

  

so that there should be one and the same method of understanding the nature of all things whatsoever, namely, through nature's universal laws and rules.

   

Thus the passions of hatred, anger, envy, and so on, considered in themselves, follow from this same necessity and efficacy of nature; 

  

they answer to certain definite causes, through which they are understood, and possess certain properties as worthy of being known as the properties of anything else, whereof the contemplation in itself affords us delight. 

  

I shall, therefore, treat of the nature and strength of the emotions according to the same method, as I employed heretofore in my investigations concerning God and the mind. 

  

I shall consider human actions and desires in exactly the same manner, as though I were concerned with lines, planes, and solids.”

There is so much to say about his words. We’ll save that for the next lecture…thank you :-))

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html
Spinoza: Tractatus de emendatione intellectus (1660)
Spinoza: Ethica (1677)
Dan Garrett, (ed.), “Cambridge Companion to Spinoza” (2001)

The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Bu tthis may be a little touch and hard to understand....

[13:27] herman Bergson: I made a small summary of what Spinoza said....

[13:27] herman Bergson: a sec

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm this was a bit complex indeed

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): google translates this is a rather funny way

[13:28] herman Bergson: Was affraid so Beertje....

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't understand it all

[13:28] herman Bergson: the language is rather complex....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no kidding!

[13:28] herman Bergson: But let me give you the summary

[13:28] herman Bergson: ----------

[13:28] herman Bergson: - Others say emotions are a world of their own for man

- and emotions are weaknesses of man, disturbing his true nature

- many write about the right way of life…

But no one, so far as I know, has defined the nature and strength of the emotions, and the power of the mind against them for their restraint. (Little lie, I think….the Stoics did:-)

( What he accuses Descartes of isn’t clear… primary causes…Have to check up on that)

- Those who see emotions as weaknesses will wonder about me treating them geometrically (by which Spinoza means…within his own metaphysical system)

- Emotions aren’t a flaw  but part of nature

[13:29] herman Bergson: this is what he says....

[13:29] Alina Gabilondo: hmmm

[13:30] herman Bergson: The basic idea is that he says that other writers see emotions as unnatural actually

[13:30] herman Bergson: a flaw in man.....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:30] Alina Gabilondo: i am afraid i have nothing to comment

[13:30] herman Bergson: and Spinoza then says.....

[13:30] Alina Gabilondo: too different definitions of emotions

[13:30] herman Bergson: I'll show you that emotions are a part of nature

[13:31] herman Bergson: and that is his most interesting point.....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think emotions makes us human

[13:31] herman Bergson: he  says....emotions are modes of matter.....of our body....they are physical

[13:32] herman Bergson: no Beertje.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Also a dog can get angry....have emotions of joy.....

[13:32] Alina Gabilondo: animals have emotions too

[13:32] herman Bergson: so that is not what makes is differ from other parts of nature

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its indeed States (modes) of the mind

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm I agree..my parrot even cries when i call him naughty

[13:33] Alina Gabilondo: hahahahah

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:33] herman Bergson: It really might be the case Beertje that the bird has an unpleasant experience when you use  that word....

[13:34] herman Bergson: as it may be associated with small punishments it got in the past when the word was used

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, true

[13:34] Alina Gabilondo: but in general too??

[13:35] herman Bergson: in geneal too what Alina?

[13:35] Alina Gabilondo: u want to say that emotions are experience result??

[13:35] herman Bergson: emotions are, as Spinoza says, states of the body.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: modes of being

[13:36] herman Bergson: And here comes Antonio Damasio, the neuroscientist......

[13:36] herman Bergson: what makes us human is not emotions....but feelings.....!

[13:37] herman Bergson: I'll not elaborate on this yet, but let me give you one explanation.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: when someone is angry, you can see it in his face.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: a dog shows his teeth....

[13:38] herman Bergson: but Damasio says...there is more...there is a feeling of angry....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Let me put it in another way......

[13:38] Alina Gabilondo: is he modern person??

[13:39] herman Bergson: oh yes....His book Lookin gfor Spinoza is from 2003

[13:39] Alina Gabilondo: aga

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:39] herman Bergson: Just try it yourself.....observe a person.......

[13:40] herman Bergson: look at him and put your face in the same expression as that person.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: You may get the same feeling as that person.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is how we understand others....call it empathy...

[13:40] Alina Gabilondo: yes i have heard about this

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or you get a smash in your face

[13:41] herman Bergson: Just keep your distance beertje :-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) Gets Hit With a frying pan

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OW!

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i always do:)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OOOOW WHAT HAVE I DONE!

[13:41] Alina Gabilondo: (￫∀￩) ァﾊﾊ八八ﾉヽﾉヽﾉヽﾉ ＼ / ＼/ ＼

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:41] herman Bergson: oops....

[13:41] herman Bergson: You're ok Bejiita? :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think so someone got angry on me it seems

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:43] Alina Gabilondo: Beerje is far

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it works better when I smile on the street..lookingup...:)))everybody is looking up in the sky then:))

[13:43] Alina Gabilondo: i can help

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:43] herman Bergson smiles

[13:43] Alina Gabilondo: teeth are ok??

[13:43] herman Bergson: Think I lost control over my class :-))

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm seems they are not mad at me, there is war in the kitchen behind here somewhere OPPPS! (ducks, there came another pan

[13:44] Alina Gabilondo: we practice emotions

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): SERIOYSLY STOP ARGUING ABOUT THE FOOD AND MAKE ME PANCAKES BACK THERE

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): !

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...we are ordered to the kitchen, I guess :-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i have heard there is difference between feelings and emotions

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes there is....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i think we had discussed it before long ago

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its familiar

[13:45] herman Bergson: Look at it  this way......

[13:47] herman Bergson: emotions are behavior patterns  which produce feelings....

[13:47] herman Bergson: the  emotions are the material things......all organisms have them to some extend....

[13:47] herman Bergson: but we as humans experience feelings associated with these emotions

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): emotions are what happens inside you (chemical reactions ect) and feelings is what you precieve of those events

[13:48] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:48] herman Bergson: and that is what Damasio does research on....

[13:49] herman Bergson: and that is what attracted him in the work of Spinoza.....

[13:49] herman Bergson: the first one  an donly one in his time who saw emotions as nature...

[13:50] herman Bergson: I understand that the text of Spinoza was perhaps too complex for you since none of you are native english speakers

[13:51] Alina Gabilondo: it is translated to all almost languages

[13:51] herman Bergson: that is true Alina....but we haven't all translations at hand unfortunately

[13:52] herman Bergson: And to be honest....even in your own language....Spinoza isn't easy

[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: i know

[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: i tried to read

[13:52] herman Bergson: But yet...this part IS understandable...can be made understandable....

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is special for sure

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I think i get somewhat most of it in general

[13:53] herman Bergson: I'll try to giv ean example next lecture.....

[13:53] Alina Gabilondo: also there are popular texts adjusted for public

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just needed a it time to recompile it

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:53] herman Bergson: Nevertheless....you all did well today...:-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: SO thank you again for your participation and interest :-)

[13:54] Alina Gabilondo: thank you for lesson Sir!

[13:54] Alina Gabilondo: :)

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

[13:54] Alina Gabilondo: good night from me!! :))

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu tuesday I guess then

[13:55] herman Bergson: You will...