637: The Meaning of Life - an introduction

The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created.

    

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. 

  

Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God, though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe 

  

that the entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. 

  

The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, 

  

are small blue creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore unique in being the only race in history 

  

to have invented the aerosol deodorant before the wheel. 

  

However, the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory is not widely accepted outside Viltvodle VI 

  

and so, the Universe being the puzzling place it is, other explanations are constantly being sought. 

  

For instance, a race of hyperintelligent pandimensional beings once built themselves a gigantic supercomputer called Deep Thought 

  

to calculate once and for all the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. 

  

For seven and a half million years, Deep Thought computed and calculated, and in the end announced that the answer was in fact Forty-two  

  

and so another, even bigger, computer had to be built to find out what the actual question was. 

  

And this computer, which was called the Earth, was so large that it was frequently mistaken for a planet

  

especially by the strange ape-like beings who roamed its surface, totally unaware that they were simply part of a gigantic computer program. 

  

And this is very odd, because without that fairly simple and obvious piece of knowledge, nothing that ever happened on the Earth could possibly make the slightest bit of sense. 

  

Sadly however, just before the critical moment of readout, the Earth was unexpectedly demolished by the Vogons 

  

to make way - so they claimed - for a new hyperspace bypass, and so all hope of discovering a meaning for life was lost for ever.
  

All hope lost forever. This is what Douglas Adams wants us te believe after you have read the first paragraphs of his book “The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (1980)”

   

Maybe you know which computer gave the answer FOURTY-TWO. It was the one in his famous novel “The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy  (1979)”

   

So the answer to the question what the meaning of life is, either is forty-two or you may wonder where I have found the hope to find an other answer yet.

   

To begin with the idea that a computer could calculate an answer to the question was a big mistake.

   

Although “What is the meaning of life?” looks like a real and reasonable question, it also suggests already an answer.

    

Every question forces you in a certain direction. Take for instance “Who is a man?” and “What is a man?”

   

A second problem with questions is and that is here the case, you expect an answer, in particular the one and only right answer.

   

Asking a “WHAT IS……?” already suggests that there is a single something, which you can describe  

    

and every time you see that something you now know what it is. That is how we learnt meanings.

   

What is that? That is a dog. What is a dog? A dog is an animal that barks… and so on.

       

The question “What is the meaning of Life ? “ suggests a similar way of answering. But we learnt that all hope of discovering a meaning for life was lost for ever.

   

And that is true. Forget any hope on that one and only right answer. There is none. Thence our next step is to figure out what to do with this question.

Let’s do that next Tuesday…thank you … ^_^

The Discussion

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all made perfect sense

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you Gemma :-)

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): except that here in this class we never expect answers

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only new questions

[13:24] herman Bergson smiles

[13:24] Starr (lynstarr): wait... how did we learn that there was no answer?

[13:24] Dag (daggash.bayn): I hope no one is really  here for the answer lol

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe but its fun and interesting

[13:24] CB Axel: I knew what you were quoting from the second sentence. :)

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: very famous book start yes ;)

[13:25] herman Bergson: That you will learn next Tuesday Starr :-)

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sort of recognized some of it too

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which is what I say my meaning of life is, to have fun, and get new interesting things all the time

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and work on my computergames and breakdance

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats my meaning of life, i think its individual a bit

[13:26] herman Bergson: that FOURTY-TWO is a famous number...

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but for natures purpose with life i guess there is no answer

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha indeed Herman

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see bej

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...I don’t see myself break dancing....just breaking everything perhaps

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:27] herman Bergson: Anyway....after almost ten years running this class I thought I had to answer this ultimate question for you ^_^

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): finally

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes, Gemma ^_^

[13:28] CB Axel: lol

[13:28] CB Axel: Yes. It's about time!

[13:28] herman Bergson: I agree and I apologize to come up with it that late :-)

[13:29] CB Axel: lol

[13:29] Starr (lynstarr): 1,2,3,6,7,14,42... just thinking about the factors of 42

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do we agree on the meaning of the word meaning

[13:29] herman Bergson: So, let's see where this all will lead to....

[13:29] Starr (lynstarr): depends on what you mean

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correctly

[13:29] herman Bergson: oops Starr..I am not a good mathematician...

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why i brought it up

[13:30] Starr (lynstarr): oops

[13:30] Starr (lynstarr): 21

[13:30] Dag (daggash.bayn): meaning as significance , right ?

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe??

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): my number today seem to be 231, i played some bowling before and after a while into 2 series i had a total of 231, then the final 3rd series was alone 231 too

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i won

[13:30] Dag (daggash.bayn): not as purpose

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:31] herman Bergson: Ahh that is a tricky issue indeed Dag....

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also yesterday i started my 3rd game, will be using python

[13:31] herman Bergson: meaning as significance or meaning as purpose...

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): taht is why i asked

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so lot of 3s it seem

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:31] Dag (daggash.bayn): yes Gemma

[13:31] herman Bergson: plz stick to the subject Bejiita ^_^

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): don’t want it to change half way through

[13:32] herman Bergson: this significance/purpose matter already tells us something about the question...

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): numbers can mean a lot

[13:33] herman Bergson: What interests me most today is the fact that a question so often suggests its answer

[13:33] Starr (lynstarr): that's what's good about confusion... you never know if you're on the right subject or not... all is good

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:33] herman Bergson: One of the important issues in philosophy is analyzing the question

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i learned that

[13:34] herman Bergson: Why not asking "Where is the meaning of life?" for instance :-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] Starr (lynstarr): yeh

[13:35] Dag (daggash.bayn): I like that one

[13:35] herman Bergson: Someone told me she had been looking everywhere at her place for it...under couch in the cupboards and hadn’t found it :-)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:35] Starr (lynstarr): :)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hello ronjaji

[13:36] herman Bergson: which implies that a question directs us also to specific actions

[13:36] Ronjaji: Hello all, sorry I'm late

[13:36] CB Axel: You're too late. We already found the meaning of life and forgot it.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): lol

[13:37] Ronjaji: Well... I only have the secret of the universe :)

[13:37] herman Bergson: So it may be interesting for Tuesday to think about the question yourself....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:37] herman Bergson: And you'll reveal it to us with a big bang, Ronjaji???

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa good idea ㋡

[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: LOL CB

[13:37] CB Axel: Douglas Adams was right. We know the answer: 42. We have to find the right question.

[13:38] Ronjaji: let me climatise first with some coffee...

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what can 42 mean then, secret code for something maybee

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): who knows

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] herman Bergson: Why is "What is the meaning of life?" a questionable question?

[13:39] herman Bergson: We'll discuss it next Tuesday :-)

[13:39] Jenna (jennastonecold): hi may i sit in and listen

[13:39] CB Axel: Because is assumes there is an answer.

[13:39] CB Axel: *it assumes

[13:39] herman Bergson: you are always and any time welcome Jenna

[13:39] Jenna (jennastonecold): thank you

[13:40] Ronjaji: IMHO ... asking a question can be more important then finding an answer....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes we did say that

[13:40] herman Bergson: In that philosophers agree with you Ronjaji

[13:41] herman Bergson: The lecture of today was more or less about the fact that the question is often the question :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Philosophically :-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed can be like that it seems sometimes

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it tuesday

[13:42] Ronjaji: I am more Advaita-oriented... here the question "who am I" is the main topic...

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will try

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: Interesting Ronjaji.....especially when you relate this question to What is the meaning of life.....I'll keep it in mind

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it fits

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: it is a kind of looking into which universe....

[13:44] herman Bergson: the private universe or THE  universe

[13:44] Ronjaji: they say that if you know who you really are, the question of the meaning of life just disappears...

[13:45] Dag (daggash.bayn): well

[13:45] herman Bergson: Interesting statement.....one to keep in mind...

[13:45] Dag (daggash.bayn): that IF is very big Ronjaji

[13:45] herman Bergson: in fact it is a kind of answer to our question.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: define yourself and you have a meaning...

[13:46] Ronjaji: ok... make it a WHEN.

[13:46] Dag (daggash.bayn): ok

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa you could say that maybe indeed

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the best explanation so far i think, at least the easiest one

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Dag....the tricky part here is this "KNOW"

[13:46] herman Bergson: what does that mean?

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit like i said before what i think my meaning of life is

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what i want to do ant think is fun

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and therefore occupy lot of time on

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some more general explanation is hard to get to, we are just here

[13:48] Ronjaji: well... actually you can't know who you are, not with the mind. it is more a recognition of the "knower"... without recognizer.  Ow.. now I confused myself . :)

[13:48] herman Bergson: You all create a whole new range of questions.....

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gets more and more complex instead

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ut thats how it works with these thins i guess ㋡

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but

[13:48] herman Bergson: I think I have to make a note of this and see how they'll fit in....

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots to think about

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this can be fun

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): homework

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fun homework ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: For instance....when do you know this “you” yourself....?

[13:49] herman Bergson: that you know yourself

[13:49] Ronjaji: actually it is very simple... just recognize all that you are not, and see what remains.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm

[13:49] Dag (daggash.bayn): You never do

[13:49] Dag (daggash.bayn): lets be honest

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now you get tricky here!

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed

[13:50] herman Bergson: Dag...that is a problematic observation.....

[13:50] herman Bergson: for if you say NEVER you must have a clear criterium to measure knowing yourself

[13:51] Dag (daggash.bayn): Well

[13:51] herman Bergson: we even do not yet know what knowing yourself means :-))

[13:51] Ronjaji: LOL... humans always want to measure things... but consciousness can't be measured... still... you are here.

[13:51] herman Bergson: or what it brings...

[13:51] Dag (daggash.bayn): thats because the self is too complex

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:52] Dag (daggash.bayn): I mean its not an entity

[13:52] Dag (daggash.bayn): but a complex of feelings ,thoughts etc.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the only thing that will happen i guess if you think too much on an answer is your head will spin faster then LHC at full power

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:52] herman Bergson: I see a lot of questions piling up here.....

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still its interesting like crazy this stuff

[13:52] Ronjaji: or the self is to simple to understand.

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stop

[13:53] herman Bergson: Time to cool down a gain :-))

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to go now

[13:53] Dag (daggash.bayn): I am freezing lol

[13:53] Ronjaji: ok ok ... sorry.. feel like I intruded here. Be right back...

[13:53] herman Bergson: We have plenty of lecture time to come to deal with all these issues ^_^

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you didnt ㋡

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i look orward a lot to this

[13:53] herman Bergson: No...you are most inspiring Ronjaji

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no bome again

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): come even

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye all for now hope to be here tuesday

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at 1

[13:54] Dag (daggash.bayn): bye Gemma

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu tuesday then

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:54] Ronjaji: Bye...

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your inspiring participation

[13:54] Dag (daggash.bayn): bye professor ,  thank you

[13:54] herman Bergson: See you next Tuesday

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs all

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman -  have a great time everyone

[13:54] Ronjaji: I'll be on time next time :)

[[13:55] CB Axel: This should be an interesting topic.

[13:55] CB Axel: See you all Tuesday. :)

[13:55] herman Bergson: I'll do my utmost CB :-)

[13:55] Starr (lynstarr): enjoyed the class

[13:56] Starr (lynstarr): see you Tuesday I hope

[13:56] herman Bergson: Most welcome Starr :-)

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman :-)

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty class

[13:56] Ronjaji: I'll try... big time difference with Holland.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes Ronjajo...timezones are a problem now and then

[13:57] Jenna (jennastonecold): thanks for letting me sit in, nice to know there is more to sl than ... have a good day all.

[13:57] Ronjaji: next tuesday 1pm PST ?

[13:57] herman Bergson: I had people from Australia in class....they had to ge tup early to attend

[13:57] herman Bergson: yes..always 1 PM SL time

[13:58] Ronjaji: wow... thats great. feels good to join a group like this, like it already.

[13:58] Ronjaji: ok. bye for now. thanks!

[13:58] herman Bergson: thank you for the compliment Ronjaji

636: A concluding lecture on Spinoza

We have seen that, Spinoza rejected the teleological account of human nature, that means, life has no goal, 

    

and hence  its implications to political societies in favour of rational, scientific understanding with its contractual implications. 

  

Therefor, political societies to Spinoza are not natural organisms but artificial entities “designed” and “manufactured” by human beings for certain ends.

   

One of the aims of Spinoza’s political writings is to demonstrate that, given the central role played by emotions in human motivations, political authority is a necessary evil. 

   

Human beings, as they are, are not the kind of beings capable of surviving without it. In addition, Spinoza (1677+) does not think, 

   

that politics are good for much more besides keeping us from chaos, murder, anarchy. In this, he is in agreement with Thomas Hobbes  (1679+). 

  

There are two ways of dealing with the political question. On the one hand you can depict a utopia, an ideal state

  

and believe that this state with its political institutions will transform human nature into something more desirable or virtuous than it is in its natural state.

   

You find such an approach in the political philosophy of Plato, Thomas More or Karl Marx.

   

Spinoza instead commences with a contrarian conviction, by and large rejecting such a possibility. This conviction proceeds from Spinoza’s interpretation of human nature.

  

Human nature should be understood as a part of the universe, of Nature, just like  any other organism or object.

   

Nature does not act with an end in view. Thence human nature has no end in view either, according to Spinoza.

   

The only thing, which drives man is his striving to persevere in being. Thence our actions are based on self-interest.

  

In the absence of political authority we are “natural enemies” to each other.   This makes Spinoza say:

  

“no society can exist without government, and force, and laws to restrain and repress men’s desires and immoderate impulses.” 

  

Spinoza argues that no one ever neglects what he regards as good, except with the hope of gaining something even better, or for the fear of some greater evil  

  

and no one ever endures an evil, except for the sake of even greater evil, or gaining something good. 

  

The logic of this is that all of us, given a choice of two goods, choose the one we think is the greatest and, 

  

given a choice of two evils, choose the least evil. When we combine this axiom with our striving to persevere in being,

   

we can see that we determine what is good and what is evil for us by judging what is most or least conducive to our survival.

  

Now, Spinoza argues, based upon this psychological axiom, that we would forsake the state of nature in favour of some form of political authority, 

  

because we would judge the situation under political authority to be a greater good or a lesser evil  than the state of nature. 

  

Thus Spinoza comes, like Thomas Hobbes, to a political authority based on a social contract between citizens.

   

This was the concluding lecture on Spinoza and of this year. Time for enjoying the Holidays.

     

What we learnt from Spinoza is that Nature and thence our life as part of Nature has no purpose or end in view.

  

This means that the question of The Meaning of Life becomes urgent and therefor will be the first theme of The Philosophy Class in 2017.

   

Thank you all for your interest and participation through the year and Happy Holidays to you all…. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:18] CB Axel: Thank you!

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Spinoza was interesting but not very enticing

[13:18] herman Bergson: He is a rationalist....

[13:19] CB Axel: We seem to be grappling with the same questions now as Spinoza was way back then.

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:19] CB Axel: We've made no progress.

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that has been the same since the class started so many years ago

[13:19] herman Bergson: Always this top down philosophy, where Frans de Waal promotes a bottom up philosophy :-)

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always more to search for

[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes CB....the questions hardly change through the centuries

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why we dont graduate

[13:20] herman Bergson: also science can not answer these basic questions

[13:20] herman Bergson: yes Gemma :-)

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they keep trying tho

[13:21] herman Bergson: Science can describe what is happening....

[13:21] herman Bergson: It can not investigate what should happen....that we have to decide ourselves

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:21] herman Bergson: In ehtics and politics

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita... :-)

[13:23] herman Bergson: We  have to tell what the meaning of life is....science can't tell you

[13:23] CB Axel: One problem, as I see it, is that we keep choosing wrong about what should happen.

[13:23] herman Bergson: I wonder, CB

[13:24] herman Bergson: If that were the case mankind would be extinct by now, I would say

[13:24] CB Axel: Ah, science can't tell us everything? Take that, Bejiita! LOL

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i know already it cant

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only almost everything

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:25] CB Axel: Mankind seems to keep going in spite of ourselves.

[13:25] herman Bergson: Such a statement presupposes a specific view on man....

[13:26] herman Bergson: plus it seems that mankind is not ourselves?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Spinoza had no clue about what we are doing here on this planet ^_^

[13:28] CB Axel: That's something I have in common with him.

[13:28] herman Bergson: That was a revolutionary point of view in those days

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes CB, today we don't even frown when we come to such a conclusion

[13:28] CB Axel: Christians still do.

[13:29] CB Axel: According to them we are here to praise their god.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Oh yes...a lot of people have theories about the WHY we are here question...

[13:29] CB Axel: Doesn't he have angels to do that for him?

[13:29] herman Bergson: I thought so too CB :-)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] herman Bergson: I have to spend the coming weeks searching for the meaning of life

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhee

[13:31] CB Axel: Good luck with that!

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:31] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): most man need a lifetime for that Herman

[13:31] CB Axel: I know I haven't found it.

[13:31] herman Bergson: thnx CB, I think I need that

[13:32] herman Bergson: Well...one important question is of course....Why should life have a meaning?

[13:32] herman Bergson: A purpose....a goal?

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is that neccesary?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje.....

[13:33] CB Axel: It would give some meaning to all the suffering.

[13:33] herman Bergson: and another question could be.....Why should it be ONE final goal....can't there be many goals?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): my goal in life now anyway is to set this one perfect

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no CB, it would have meaning for all the joy

635: Morality comes from within...

In my previous lecture I said that Spinoza was mistaken in emphasizing the basic self-interest of man as his driving power. You can not blame him for that.

  

The negative self image of man has been pushed upon us for centuries by various religions. Aren’t we all sinners?

  

We live in a time of increasing acceptance of our kinship with the apes. This are insights, which were far beyond Spinoza’s horizon.

  

True, humanity never runs out of claims of what sets it apart, but it is a rare uniqueness claim. 

  

If we consider our species without letting ourselves be blinded by the technical advances of the last few millennia, 

  

we see a creature of flesh and blood with a brain that, albeit three times larger than a chimpanzee’s, doesn’t contain any new parts.

   

Even our vaunted prefrontal cortex turns out to be of rather typical size compared with that of other primates. 

  

No one doubts the superiority of our intellect, but we have no basic wants or needs that are not also present in our close relatives. 

  

The view of morality as a set of immutable principles, or laws, that are ours to discover ultimately comes from religion. 

  

It doesn’t really matter whether it is God, human reason, or science that formulates these laws.

  

All of these approaches share a top-down orientation, their chief premise being that humans don’t know how to behave and that someone must tell them. 

  

But what if morality is created in day-to-day social interaction, not at some abstract mental level? 

  

What if it is grounded in the emotions, which most of the time escape the neat categorizations that science is fond of?

  

A good example is what we call “Altruism”. The typical argument against it runs as follows: (1) natural selection is a selfish, nasty process, 

  

(2) this automatically produces selfish and nasty individuals, and (3) only romantics with flowers in their hair would think otherwise.

  

Up to recent times, say the year 2000, the altruistic impulse was downplayed, ridiculed even. 

  

We were only slightly better than social insects. Human kindness was seen as a charade and morality as a thin veneer over a cauldron of nasty tendencies. 

  

However, anthropologists demonstrated a sense of fairness in people across the world, 

  

economists found humans to be more cooperative and altruistic than the Homo economicus view would allow, 

  

experiments with children and primates found altruism in the absence of incentives, six-month-old babies were said to know the difference between “naughty” and “nice,” 

  

and neuroscientists found our brains to be hardwired to feel the pain of others. If you have watched the videos, you know what I mean.

  

As Frans de Waal concludes: It is now widely assumed that we are designed in body and mind to live together 

  

and take care of each other, and that humans have a natural tendency to judge others in moral terms. 

  

Instead of being a thin veneer, morality comes from within. It’s part of our biology, a view supported by the many parallels found in other animals.

  

Don’t blame Spinoza for not knowing this. He still has a lot of interesting thoughts to offer…

  

Thank you… ^_^

  

  

The Discussion

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): silence...

[13:22] CB Axel: In this past year it seems to me that the "altruistic impulse" is being "downplayed, ridiculed" again.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Morality is our ability to think about our actions....in that sense we differe from other animals

[13:23] herman Bergson: It needs a president to do that

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but human beings is the only animal that attacks his own 'soort '

[13:23] herman Bergson: oh no...Beertje

[13:24] CB Axel: To become a president, there must be others who feel like him.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Chimps are very aggressive too and can kill eachother

[13:24] CB Axel: All animals attack their own sort. They fight all the time.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Donald Trump having moral? hmmmm doesnt go together

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats him

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there are other presidents

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not in a way we as human do

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the scale ia much larger

[13:25] CB Axel: Yes, but apparently Trump is the president admired by enough people that he got elected.

[13:25] herman Bergson: The problem is that we are told for centuries now wthat we should ponder about the fact that we are selfish creatures....that is what we are..

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for some reason but im not into their election system

[13:26] herman Bergson: our culture is soaked with that self image of man....and it is definitely a misconception

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if one hears that one is selfish, we believe that

[13:26] CB Axel: You're right, Beertje. I can't think offhand of another animal that organizes armies to fight others.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we become selfish when we ae influenced that way

[13:26] herman Bergson: ants do

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i dont think thats in us from start

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed all bloody wars

[13:27] herman Bergson: chimps use sticks to beat

[13:27] herman Bergson: but I agree we are the best in waging war

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is what I ment to say

[13:28] herman Bergson: however, this doesn’t change the fact that we also are social animals....

[13:28] CB Axel: But do the chimps organize as a group to invade and kill other groups? Or is it just individuals beating one another up?

[13:28] herman Bergson: They organize themselves to beat up one individual

[13:28] CB Axel: Ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: They do that yes

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:29] herman Bergson: Chimps have that same duality in their behavior as we have....

[13:29] CB Axel: It seems to me that Trump and his supporters are all selfish but their selfishness has different origins.

[13:29] herman Bergson: on the one hand we are killers and on the other hand we are social and caring creatures....

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we should be smarter than a chimp

[13:30] herman Bergson: We are in the sense that we develop moral rules Beertje

[13:30] herman Bergson: Chimps act on their instincts....

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some people do too

[13:30] herman Bergson: We can step back and reconsider our planned actions

[13:31] CB Axel: It's my opinion that we are hardwired to mistrust those who are different from ourselves. That arises from our need in our primitive past to protect ourselves from invaders.

[13:31] herman Bergson: But keep in mind that we are hardly evolved from the animal kingdom...

[13:31] CB Axel: We banded together with family and others like us to protect ourselves from those who would take our food, our shelter, and our lives.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes CB...this is based on the hardwired feeling of FEAR....

[13:32] herman Bergson: What we do not know scares us

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one really sad thing i saw recently was that a clothes store had a picture of a really cute nice dark skinned guy dressed as lucia, imediatley hate and racism flooded the comment sections

[13:32] herman Bergson: SO we have this basic feeling of WE and the OTHERS

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i mean why?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he looked great like that and seemed a such happy nice guy

[13:33] CB Axel: I would like to think that we are smart enough to recognize that in ourselves, understand that we cannot continue to live like that, and overcome our instinctual tendencies toward prejudice.

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): isn't Lucia a woman?

[13:33] CB Axel: It's like that here, Bejiita, with Santa Claus.

[13:33] CB Axel: Everyone wants Santa to look like themselves.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes but is that so important nowadays, i think he looked great like that

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time is changing , to me it diesnt matter, the important thing is that it is a nice cozy event and that there is something nice to eat

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if the lucia is guy or girl black or white doesnt matter

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the event itself thats the important thing

[13:35] CB Axel: True, Bejiita.

[13:36] herman Bergson: A lot of responses are based on fear.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: fear for the unknown,  they take our jobs....rape our women etc...

[13:36] CB Axel: What we need is a big space alien invasion to bring us all together.

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not only fear I think. Lucia is a tradition, people like to keep their own traditions

[13:37] herman Bergson: They fear to loose their own culture Beertje...

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there however also were lots of people just loving the guy and taking clear distance from the hate

[13:37] herman Bergson: Like nationalism, the ultimate WE feeling...

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, but what is wrong with to keep your own identity?

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the end the store felt they needed to pull the image however

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hate won

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:38] CB Axel: That's too bad. :(

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): feel sad for the boy

[13:38] CB Axel: I feel sad for everyone who didn't like him.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i don’t get how some people can be so cruel and unfeeling

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just spewing hate around

[13:39] herman Bergson: Same happens here in theNetherlands, Bejiita

[13:39] CB Axel: Perhaps they feel that having a black boy as Lucia was being cruel and unfeeling towards themselves and their traditions.

[13:39] herman Bergson: A bakery dared to put pictures of Black Peter, the helper of Sinterklaas in the window....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Next day big texts on his windows....racist !

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pff

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with rasicism

[13:40] herman Bergson: Go an tellthat such people, Beertje

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed have nothing with racism to do

[13:41] herman Bergson: Since 1986 they are already complaining about this fellow being depicted as black

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they wouyldn't listen..they have a black wooden plank for their eyes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here in sweden there was even talk of banning gingerbread man, i just WTF

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): today everything is connected to hate and racism

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its crazy

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true Bejiita

[13:43] CB Axel: Do they object to him being black or to white people putting on blackface to portray him?

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): speaking of i wish it was possible to change skin color rl, i think id look kind of cool rl dark skinned

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): change after your current mood

[13:43] herman Bergson: They object to him being black....it refers acoording to the opponents, to the slavery of black people

[13:44] herman Bergson: and that hurts, they say

[13:44] CB Axel: Ah

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it has nothing to do with rasisism CB,, Zwarte Piet is an honour name

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a bringer of joy

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] CB Axel: Yes. I understand.

[13:45] CB Axel: And it's spelled racism. °͜°

[13:45] herman Bergson: All of a sudden black people have become so sensitive :-)

[13:45] CB Axel: The English language sucks. LOL

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's an honour of being Zwarte Piet, to help Sinterklaas, bringing joy to the childeren

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like the elves of your Santa Claus

[13:45] CB Axel: I don't think they've become sensitive. I think they now have the freedom to speak up about their sensitivities.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): people who hate Zwarte Piet are frustrated

[13:46] herman Bergson: Indeed CB.....we live in a free country here...it has its consequences

[13:46] CB Axel: I guess elves don't feel free to speak up. °͜°

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why not?

[13:47] herman Bergson: are they all white or do there exist black elves too CB?

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do little people feel discriminated?

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): slaves of Santa?

[13:48] CB Axel: Yes, they do. That's why we call them little people and not dwarfs or midgets any more.

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i didn't know the word for dwarfs:)

[13:48] herman Bergson: OMG...one step further andd all fairytales with dwarfs in them have to be forbidden...because the discriminate little people

[13:49] herman Bergson: midget

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok:)

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i was unknowing politiek correct:)

[13:49] CB Axel: Midgets are not the same as dwarfs, I don't believe.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have another example, they had to edit out a part in the Disney Christmas program they send here in sweden, the part where a africal looking doll tries to scare santa by screaming MAMIII instead of Mama when asked to

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was labeled as racist just recently and edited out, have watched that show all my live and not seen anything like this about it

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): omg.....

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it leaves a huge jump in the video

[13:51] herman Bergson: the clash of cultures, Bejiita

[13:52] herman Bergson: I think we better leave it by this for today.....

[13:52] herman Bergson: Otherwise there will be an action committee in no time ppleading for political correct fairytales

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm

[13:53] CB Axel: That has already happened.

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): gone with the diversity

[13:53] herman Bergson: Oh dear...

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well...thank you anyway for your participation again toady....

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice once again

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and interesting

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): your welcome, graag gedaan, Herman

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday then

[13:53] CB Axel: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004BA5EV0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Good discussion.

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:54] CB Axel: It did nothing to change my opinion that humans suck, but interesting nonetheless. °͜°

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:55] CB Axel: See you all Thursday. °͜°

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): till thursday :)

[13:55] herman Bergson: I'd say, some humans suck, CB...not all humans suck

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): back to decorate my house a bit more

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least finishing the lamp

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight with politic correct dreams:)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] herman Bergson: Bye CB

634: Spinoza's mistake....

“If you ask a mathematician, a mineralogist, a historian, or any other man of learning, 

  

what definite body of truths has been ascertained by his science, his answer will last as long as you are willing to listen. 

  

But if you put the same question to a philosopher, he will, if he is candid, have to confess that his study has not achieved positive results such as have been achieved by other sciences. 

  

It is true that this is partly accounted for by the fact that, as soon as definite knowledge concerning any subject becomes possible, 

  

this subject ceases to be called philosophy, and becomes a separate science.” -end quote

  

These are the words of Bertrand Russel in chapter 15 in  “The Problems of Philosophy” (1912) and with regard to morality we might have reached such a situation today.

  

According to most philosophers, we reason ourselves toward moral truths. Even if they don’t invoke God, 

  

they’re still proposing a top-down process in which we formulate the principles and then impose them on human conduct. 

Spinoza is a classic example with his “Ethica”. It even is composed “more geometrico”. You start with axioms and then deduce the rest.

  

But do moral deliberations really take place at such an elevated plane? Don’t they need to be anchored in who and what we are? 

  

Would it be realistic, for example, to urge people to be considerate of others if we didn’t already have a natural inclination to be so? 

  

Would it make sense to appeal to fairness and justice if we didn’t have powerful reactions to their absence?

Spinoza, just like Hobbes formulate a principle and impose it on human conduct and from there they reason top down.

  

Their principle is that human behaviour is driven by individual self-interest. At first sight you easily can be inclined to agree.

  

Aren’t humans  very selfish creatures. Aren’t they sinful and primarily inclined to do evil? Isn’t the rule of a god necessary to keep man in check?

  

This way of thinking mainly supported by religion, has now shown to be a serious misconception.

  

As Frans de Waal says: “I am a firm believer in David Hume’s position that reason is the slave of the passions. 

   

We started out with moral sentiments and intuitions, which is also where we find the greatest continuity with other primates. 

  

Rather than having developed morality from scratch through rational reflection, we received a huge push in the rear from our background as social animals.” 

Darwin already wrote in “The Descent of Man” (1871): “The social instincts lead an animal to take pleasure in the society of its fellows, 

  

to feel a certain amount of sympathy with them, and to perform various services for them.” -end quote

It was a logical consequence of his evolution theory, but he had little hard data to corroborate his ideas.

   

It is more than a 100 years later, that we have empirical evidence, which supports Darwin’s ideas.

   

Spinoza was mistaken in emphasizing the basic self-interest of man as his driving power. You can not blame him for that.

  

Only in 2013 Frans de Waal published “The Bonobo and the Atheist” and in 2014 “Evolved Morality”,

as co-editor  together with Patricia Smith Churchland, Telmo Pievani and Stefano Parmigiani.

  

The full title of that publication is “Evolved Morality: The Biology and Philosophy of

Human Conscience”

  

More about this in the next lecture…Thank you ^_^

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: as CB already discovered....the two videos under the blackboard are illustrating my point

[13:23] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:23] CB Axel: I haven't started watching them yet.

[13:23] herman Bergson smiles

[13:23] CB Axel: I just saved the URL's so I can watch later.

[13:24] herman Bergson: You definitely should watch them....

[13:24] Frans de Waal link:  Frans de Waal has just been used by Beertje Beaumont!

[13:24] CB Axel: I will before Tuesday. °͜°

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have watched that 60 mins one

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes...they will support the lecture of next Tuesday indeed CB

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:24] CB Axel: So, we have homework this week.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes we did watch that baby one a couple years ago for some philosopher

[13:25] Frans de Waal link:  Frans de Waal has just been used by Gemma Cleanslate!

[13:25] herman Bergson: These videos are eyeopeners....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:25] Frans de Waal link:  Frans de Waal has just been used by Ciska Riverstone!

[13:26] Frans de Waal link:  Frans de Waal has just been used by CB Axel!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i agree withe the babies

[13:26] herman Bergson: Long time we have been dominated by this idea of the selfish man....

[13:26] Frans de Waal link:  Frans de Waal has just been used by Beertje Beaumont!

[13:26] herman Bergson: Dawkins even expanded it to the selfish gene....

[13:26] CB Axel: I've seen a video of a chimp, I believe, who got very upset when treated unfairly.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i saw that too i think

[13:26] herman Bergson: that is the de Waal video with bonobos, CB :-))

[13:27] herman Bergson: So funny too

[13:27] Frans de Waal link:  Frans de Waal has just been used by bergfrau Apfelbaum!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): babies are actually smarter than adults i think

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a while anyway

[13:27] herman Bergson: one gets grapes as reward and he gets just cucumber pieces!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:27] CB Axel: Then we hit puberty, Gemma.

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i remember that !!

[13:27] CB Axel: Yes. That is the video I've seen.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:28] CB Axel: I think puberty is when our brains quit working.

[13:28] herman Bergson: The fellow even throws the cucumber at the scientist :-))))

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have seen something like this too I think

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looll CB

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have had homework before

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe, at least for some

[13:28] herman Bergson: But think.....HOW can an ANIMAL behave like this????

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is the big issue here

[13:29] herman Bergson: We have monopolized morality for ourselves

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i think some animals have much more sense than we give them credit for

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because i think it have learned whats taste better and so wants the same as the others

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a built in desire

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instinct

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like when a baby cries for candy in a store

[13:29] herman Bergson: And that, Gemma, is emerging in scientific research these days...

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because it knows it taste good

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so wants it

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it is

[13:30] CB Axel: But it's still one animal wanting something another is getting. That's not morality.

[13:30] herman Bergson: No it is not indeed CB.....

[13:30] CB Axel: What I don't remember from the video is how the bonobo getting the grapes reacted.

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some do have moral responses to what is going on around them

[13:30] herman Bergson: But it shows a feeling for fairness

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] CB Axel: Did it feel bad? Did it offer grapes to the other?

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): watch it

[13:31] herman Bergson: the one anamal can "feel" what the other animal experiences.....sweet tasts...and he is NOT!

[13:32] herman Bergson: Morality begins with empathy...

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: in munich one of the orang ladies got depressed after giving birth and the older female elder who already has one now raises the her kid too showing her how to do it

[13:32] herman Bergson: and we are not the only animals capable of empathy

[13:32] CB Axel: Yes, but did the one getting the grapes feel empathetic toward the one getting the cucumber?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes CB.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: There was another test.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: two bonobos had to pick colored objects from a stack....

[13:34] herman Bergson: there were red and green balls...

[13:34] herman Bergson: if one picked up a green balland gave it to the scientist he AND his mate got a grape as reward...

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was nice

[13:35] herman Bergson: did he pick  a red ball and give it to the scientist only th egiver received a grape....as reward...

[13:35] herman Bergson: the out come was that they both preferred to give green balls sothat both got rewarded each time

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): smart!!!!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:36] herman Bergson: there are other examples of this kind

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes i have seen others too

[13:36] CB Axel: That experiment wouldn't work with a friend of mine. He has red/green color blindness. °͜°

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): blue and green balls then

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yellow i mean

[13:37] herman Bergson: It could work with your friend too CB, if that person still can see different shades of grey....doesnt need to be 50 tho

[13:37] CB Axel: lol

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:38] herman Bergson: this new development in primatology shed a complete new light on morality and its origins...

[13:39] herman Bergson: It doesn’t answer all questions...we'll deal with that next tuesday...

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its right inside us from start¨

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): until overwritten by "bad behaviour ideas"

[13:39] herman Bergson: But it puts philosophers to some extend pleasantly out of work

[13:39] CB Axel: The bonobo god could have told them to be nice to each other. °͜°

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gotten from the surroindings

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting concept indeed

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....something like that

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: the problem seems to be the "becoming conscious"

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its like we are born with a good working OS and then later on someone installs viruses making bad behaviour

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something like that

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bad influences

[13:41] herman Bergson: YEs Ciska that still remains the biggest riddle of th euniverse...

[13:41] CB Axel: I'm not bad. I've been hacked.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): antivirus installed

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] CB Axel: lol

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:41] herman Bergson: No no..Bejiita...we are not all good and become bad due to exterior influences...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but personality is key too

[13:42] CB Axel: That's why we invented gods. Antivirus god.

[13:42] herman Bergson: We are both....good and bad....that is the reasong of the existence of morality

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its really complex

[13:42] herman Bergson: We are this duality

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): external influences mixed with the individuals personalyty determines it

[13:43] herman Bergson: Something like that, yes...it isn’t mathematics....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): external influences can be heavy, but we still can think for ourselves

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pretty logical

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have a choice

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:45] herman Bergson: But most important here is to notice that there is the beginning of a scientific explanation of morality as part of our behavior

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what would Spinoza have said to all that hah

[13:45] herman Bergson: But we'll get to the position of science in this matter in the next lecture

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he would have said...ik zie jullie de volgende keer :)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...I wonder Gemma....

[13:47] herman Bergson: What does a person who lived all  his life in the jungle say when you drop him in the middle of New York?

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): mámááá

[13:47] herman Bergson: SOmething like that , I guess

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:47] CB Axel: New York is a jungle. LOL

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are people who have done that

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a concrete jungle

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from the amazon

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still people down there with NO outside contact

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: yes

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): deep in the jungle

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they are trying to protect them from ever seeing

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i cant imagine how

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with planes flying over

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and other oddities

[13:48] herman Bergson: oh that is no rpoblem.....

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe they can't see the planes because they never seen one and don't know what it is

[13:49] herman Bergson: what you do not understand becomes some kind of spirit or god...

[13:49] CB Axel: I doubt that they see the planes as man-made things.

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:49] herman Bergson: They do not see planes at all....

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: well it starts when u have to express it

[13:50] herman Bergson: they see amgic white lines in the sky appear.....

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: means

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: when you have to consciously name it

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are so high above also they cant hear the engine noise

[13:50] herman Bergson: the gods are drawing their future pathways

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: thats the source of any religion

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so they probably think they are birds

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: or godbirds

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least for commercial airliners, but low flying helicopters and similar might be different

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and speed boats

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: dragons, monsters, devils, Bejiita...that they are

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybee

[13:51] herman Bergson: Bejiita...just a personal request :-)))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Could you stop typing maybe with two ee-s :-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: I always have to correct them in post editing our discussions ^_^

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe, its cause thats the way i pronounce it, i pull it out

[13:52] herman Bergson: Maybe is enough :-))

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when i say it

[13:53] herman Bergson grins

[13:53] CB Axel: It's not a typo. It's personal expression. °͜°

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: ok...I cant make you stop typing with an accent :-))

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i would post it as it is

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:53] CB Axel: lol

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess you can call it that

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol, typing with an accent:)

[13:54] herman Bergson laughs

[13:54] herman Bergson: ok I can live with that :-))

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): time to go over to the expo

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a thing i have done a while indeed, started as a fun thing

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then became routine sort of

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:54] herman Bergson: Ahh you do it on purpose......! :-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:55] herman Bergson: ok ^_^

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but routine mostly now, since ive done it so many times

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thnx Bejiita ^_^

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it goes for all things i do a lot

[13:55] herman Bergson: Let me thank you all again today for your participation....

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thanx

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well was interesting again herman

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel Herman

[13:56] herman Bergson: If there aren't any questions left.....?

[13:56] CB Axel: Thanks you. Tuesday should be very interesting.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now!!!

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: have a great rest of the day everyone

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: funny class :-) thank you

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will watch the videos again

[13:56] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight everyone

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me to

[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes wath the videos!

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): weltrusten Ciska

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[[13:56] CB Axel: I'm looking forward to watching those.

[13:56] CB Axel: See you all Tuesday. °͜°

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs all

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hugs+

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we do

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡