646: Is science a religion too...?

In our search of the meaning of life there has shown up an idea in our discussions which I’d like to address.

  

The meaning of life seems to be closely related to the beliefs someone hold. A serious question about beliefs is how they are justified.

    

Beliefs are important, because they shape our social life. My beliefs have consequences for the people around me. Therefor the importance of justification.

  

A few times it is suggested here that science is eventually a belief system just like religions. And thence 

  

you might get the impression that science is equivalent with for instance islam, buddhism or christianity.

   

This however is not the case. Science is not a religion in that sense. In a way it is a belief system indeed.

   

Centuries of philosophy still have not come forward with the ultimate epistemological answers, but we could say this:

  

Science is a formal system. Any Formal System has 3 constituents : a language, a set of axioms or postulates ( certain expressions in that language ) , and rules of inference.

  

Axioms or postulates could be, that every object has extension, that we have duration and time, that events are sequential - and here we can start a complex debate about causality - and so  on.

   

The rules of inference are the basic rules of logic. Thus we can come to a scientific method and formulating and testing hypotheses .

  

Of course the postulates are assumed to be true, although we have no way to prove them by means of a logical deduction.

  

But by postulating them we can explain and predict and test our assumptions about reality. And even more important everyone can repeat the tests, question the results and so on.

  

And in this sense science is totally different from religious beliefs, also in its social consequences. However, this early means, that science is THE road to follow to find a meaning of life.

   

Science describes and explains our reality, but it does not tell us why we are here. It only tells us how we are here as organisms and part of nature.

  

So our search for the meaning of life can go on, because as we saw in the previous lecture, religions too do not offer a real answer.

   

Nowhere we find an answer of the question WHY we were created and if the answer would be, that it is to serve our creator and his creation,  

   

that would be a poor meaning of life. It would mean that we only exist for our creator. But what when I do not want to be a religious gardener?

What is in it for me as a person?

   

Religion has found an answer to that question: the better gardener we are the higher will be our reward in the afterlife.

  

The leap of faith which is required to have this view should also to be understood clearly. 

  

This is the belief that a God, of whom we can not know whether he exists, has a purpose with  a life after death for us,  of which we have no indication that there really will be one. 

  

Furthermore, we would like to have confidence, that this goal is one where we would be happy with.

So just believing that this afterlife is really the big thing is not a satisfactory way to me to answer the question of the meaning of life.

   

Thank you for your attention… ^_^

The Discussion

[13:15] herman Bergson: A bit too much? :-)

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): SImply put, Science can be prooved, religion can not

[13:15] herman Bergson: statement within  science can be proven

[13:16] Ciska Riverstone: science works with assumptions which are not always proven

[13:16] Ciska Riverstone: because it needs something to relate to

[13:16] herman Bergson: they even can not be proven within the system itself

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed but it is always based on fact

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not supernatural stuff

[13:16] BillMcDonagh: What is fact?

[13:16] herman Bergson: for instance the belief that outside our sensory data there exists a real world independent of our sensory data

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): logical explanations for how things work sort of

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): using mathematics, physics and chemistry

[13:17] herman Bergson: a fact is a statement which can be true or false

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what drives the universe, nothing less, nothing more

[13:17] herman Bergson: and which canbe proven to be so

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed there are probably things we cant see or understand

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: describing the world as it is does not make a meaning - thats fact too.

[13:18] herman Bergson: indeed Ciska.....

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: the evalutaion comes from human beings

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: and how do we do that?

[13:18] herman Bergson: By looking at our origin we find little that gives us a meaning of life

[13:18] CB Axel: But making up stories doesn't make a meaning, either.

[13:19] Ciska Riverstone: which brings us back to nihilism - yes cb

[13:19] herman Bergson: I'll spend a lecture on making up stories soon CB :-)

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example, what is dark matter and why is everything crated from all these small elementary particles and why cant anything go beyond the speed of light

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things like that, we know it is like that but we cant grasp it at all

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: thats interessting but does it give your life a meaning?

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its still not anything supernatural about it

[13:20] herman Bergson: I agree Bejiita...

[13:20] herman Bergson: Maybe the WHY question is not applicable in those cases....

[13:21] herman Bergson: MAybe looking at the future in stead of the past will give meaning Ciska

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: usually when we talk about meaning things like "love" are mentioned

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: and science cannot grasp that fully - it can describe biochemical stuff going on when we for example fall in love

[13:22] herman Bergson: relations between humans....

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: or when we love our parents

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: but it cannot grasp love on a whole

[13:22] herman Bergson: but the biochemical processes are only correlated with behavior we call "love", Ciska

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its  so complex

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gemma:)

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: but they still do not built up a if then logic

[13:23] herman Bergson: There is a tendency to think that we are our brain.....

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: hello oola

[13:23] oola Neruda: smiles... hello

[13:23] herman Bergson: but that is a too narrow outlook, I'd say

[13:23] herman Bergson: Hi oola :-)

[13:23] oola Neruda: :-)

[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hi oola :-)

[13:24] oola Neruda: hello all... i don't want to be interrupting

[13:24] herman Bergson: At least we might conclude that looking at the origin of something it doesnt automaticaly offer a meaning too...

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: well thats something we experience very often - don't we?

[13:25] herman Bergson: That we came from the sea as organisms...well....what does it tell about the meaning of life ?

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: So far the only little light we have seen is the existentialist view on our responsibility

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: its great to know how to repair my fridge - and it makes sure I can have veggies for more then one day  - but does not help me with the meaning of life

[13:27] herman Bergson: no...but it is quite handy that you can repair that fridge Ciska :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: heheh

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the fridge is by far the most important electric machine since need fresh food to survive

[13:28] herman Bergson: I guess we are a bit done with looking at origins as a source of info about the meaning of life...

[13:29] herman Bergson: also religions do not offer a real answer...

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: so now  we can do the storytelling ourselves? ;)

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: in a way I think thats where the western society is

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do you have the answer Herman?

[13:29] herman Bergson: Working on it Beertje :-)

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:30] oola Neruda: I've been reading a book about the civil war in america..from the point of view of a nurse..... life and death seem to factor into meaning .... especially an unnatural death

[13:30] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll discuss the phenomenon of story telling....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes...death is a challenging issue in relation to life....

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: In a very odd and really threatening way we find out with trump what happens when someone does the storytelling in a psychotic way.

[13:31] herman Bergson: to put it in extreme wordings...

[13:31] herman Bergson: why should I life if I yet know I'll die and vanish?

[13:32] herman Bergson: That life must have a meaning to me probably?

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why would we study and work?

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and not enjoy the sun?

[13:32] herman Bergson: well...that can be answered Beertje....

[13:32] BillMcDonagh: Survival is the root of all our decisions?

[13:32] herman Bergson: When you look at a person living in al kinds of contexts....

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes within the context of survival you need food...so money ...so a job to earn it

[13:33] herman Bergson: for instance

[13:33] herman Bergson: within the context of a society you need education to get a certain place in that society....

[13:34] herman Bergson: so within contexts there is a meaning of life

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but leads us that to the meaning of life?

[13:34] herman Bergson: to some extend yes, I'd say

[13:35] herman Bergson: I want to achieve things....

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if that's all there is,,,then lets keep dancing:)

[13:35] herman Bergson: so I have to do something...for instance to study...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I love dancing

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:35] herman Bergson whispers: you would get hungry while dancing on Beertje :-0

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I know..i was a dancer :))

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: hmmm...wonder what I am doing with my pipe? :-))

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): My goal this year will at least be get better on breakdance, i was a bit jelaus of some of the guys at that event before

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it looks so easy too

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:37] herman Bergson: practice Bekiita, practice :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i can do some things at least now already

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its great fun so

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp with the guys im hanging oit with

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): out

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well when we are discussing breakdancing now..maybe I could advise you all to go dancing :-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: unless one of you still has a question?

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no breakdance for me:)

[13:38] herman Bergson: or remark :-)

[13:38] oola Neruda: when you sit with people as they die.... as i have done several times.... things change inside you re: what life is about

[13:39] herman Bergson: When you are close to dieing yourself it happens too oola...

[13:39] oola Neruda: yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: For some reason afterwards life becomes more meaningful....I almost can say

[13:39] oola Neruda: meaningful or precious?

[13:40] herman Bergson: at least both, oola

[13:40] oola Neruda: smiles

[13:40] oola Neruda: your values change... what is important

[13:40] herman Bergson: Maybe that is such an axiom...the will to live....

[13:41] oola Neruda: or not worth your attention

[13:41] herman Bergson: It is in our system....

[13:41] herman Bergson: but no science can tell you why it is there

[13:41] oola Neruda: yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: well you could say...purpose is to keep the organism alive....

[13:42] herman Bergson: but again why?

[13:42] oola Neruda: nods

[13:42] herman Bergson: so maybe you can call this one of our axioms of being

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because we want to be alive

[13:43] herman Bergson: based in this axiom you can talk about evolution for instance

[13:43] oola Neruda: as a woman... i find it more important that my child is alive

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes...it is not that absolute indeed....

[13:43] oola Neruda: instinct?

[13:44] herman Bergson: instinct is just a word leading to a tautology...

[13:44] herman Bergson: what is instinct...the will to live...

[13:44] herman Bergson: what is the will to live ..instinct

[13:44] oola Neruda: what is tautology

[13:45] herman Bergson: it means saying something twice the same but with different words...

[13:45] oola Neruda: ty

[13:45] herman Bergson: but it suggests that you give some definition....

[13:45] herman Bergson: a tautology does not offer extra information

[13:46] herman Bergson: I guess it might be time for dancing now ? :-)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): found this finally

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://vimeo.com/80742121

[13:46] herman Bergson: SO may I thank you again for your participation...:-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this is one of my dance buddies, he is among the best in the world

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): totally awesome

[13:47] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and a nice guy, great friend he is

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman :)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Bejiita you get an F if you are watching Youtube here in class on your iPhone..! :-)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and this was also an amazing jorney with all of you

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol Herman

[13:48] herman Bergson: Watching dance movies...!

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): want to give you some inspiration

[13:48] herman Bergson grins

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if there is a guy who can inspire its this guy

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡ thanx bejiita

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:48] BillMcDonagh: Thanks

[13:49] herman Bergson: Cool Bejiita....but for me it is Break my bones dancing :-)

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol..me breakdancing??......i was a ballroom and latin dancer....not so dangerous as breakdance

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well latin works for me too

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i like mix and mash stuff up and experiment

[13:49] CB Axel: I'll see you all Thursday. °͜°

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with particle physics as well as dance

[13:50] herman Bergson: Ok CB....:-)

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eveything i do i turn into science

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class :-)

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time

[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bye sweet heart Bergie :-)

645: Creationisme.....???

As commander of Apollo 17 Eugene Cernan visited the moon in 1972. Cernan died in a hospital in Houston on January 16, 2017, at the age of 82.

   

He said: "No one in his right mind is to look at the stars and everywhere eternally black night and deny the spirituality of the experience or the existence of a Supreme Being." 

  

This is a classic kind of statement. You can hear it in many variations, referring to the complexity of the human body or the beauty of nature.

However, such claims are nothing more than the expression of a personal conviction. What people do in such claims is,

    

they jump from a personal conviction, own inner, spiritual experience to the actual existence of a creator in the outside world.

   

Another words, a personal conviction or inner experience should be the proof for the existence of something in the outside world.

  

But what reason or argument is there for me to accept the same thing, for I don’t share these convictions or experiences at all.

  

Often people include a typical argument to make me share their claim. In this case it is the expression “in his right mind”.

   

We only can conclude here, that whoever denies the existence of a Supreme Being, is not in his right mind. Quite a claim, if this is based on just a personal experience of Eugene Cernan.

  

In fact this is a classic fallacy, which is called “argument ad hominem”. The trick is to disqualify the PERSON, who disagrees with you, because you lack good ARGUMENTS.

  

A modern example is Donald Trump who calls a judge a “so-called judge”, disqualifying the person, because he has no juridical arguments to contradict the judgement of the judge.

  

The other approach to justify the creationist view is by referring to creation stories. The Hindus have their Poerana, Christianity its Genesis story.

   

But here we already run into a problem. Some claim that you have to take the texts literally, others claim that the texts are metaphors

  

and thus are a representation of the truth, that the universe was created on purpose with a certain intrinsic goal.

  

What would it mean for our search for the meaning of life, if we would accept these creationist stories? 

The fact that we exist from a naturalistic point of view did not intrinsically hold a meaning of this existence. Does the belief that we are created?

   

We get in a difficult position here, for such a creator, isn’t it justified to ask at least WHY it/he/she created man?

  

The answer would tell us, what the meaning of life is. We may assume that this creator is some intelligence, which acts are based on a purpose he/she /it has in mind.

   

However from Genesis 1:28 we only learn: ”And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:

  

and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” -end quote

   

Many interpret this as an indication that we are  appointed as stewards of the earth. But we have no idea why we actually should care or how this command can give a meaning to our lives .

   

Are we created to take care of an earth of which we even not know why this god created it?

   

I would say from the perspective of human dignity that it would be better for man 

  

that he could determine his own goals rather that he simply must meet the needs of its creator.

Sometimes it is said, that we are here to do the will of god. Now we know that muslims are even more fanatic in doing so than christians.

  

Does that give meaning to our life? Our life would only have a purpose for our creator, but not for ourselves.

  

Are we created to serve our creator? Isn’t it eventually highly improbable that  the Supreme Being would feel compelled to create human beings, 

  

in all their complexity and with all the suffering and toil human life entails, solely with the intention that these creatures him serve? And for what reason?

  

This is the image of God as a selfish tyrant, determined to use his power to surround himself with supporters and to be praised.

My conclusion is, that we do not find an answer to why we are created, or just here. If it is to serve god,

   

then what, when I refuse that job and choose my own goals? Does that mean that I am not in my right mind?

     

Thank you for your attention…. ^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

Julian Baggini, What's It All About? Philosophy and the Meaning of Life (2004)  

Richard David Precht, Wer bin ich, und wenn ja, wie viele? (2007)

The Discussion

[13:23] CB Axel: I have two problems with "serving God."

[13:23] CB Axel: One is, which god?

[13:24] druth Vlodovic: what spices t use

[13:24] CB Axel: There have been so many.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:24] herman Bergson: yes  CB

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depends on your own faith

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or lack of it

[13:24] CB Axel: Secondly, what does God want? How do I serve him?

[13:24] CB Axel: It's all so vague.

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is a classic CB :-)

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it depends on what you believe is the answer to all those questions

[13:25] herman Bergson: That is why we have a certain kind of people who tell us what god wants :-)

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then which is the right one if anyindeed 1000s of gods and people believe all in different ones and think there is only that one

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: mh  - what do you want and how do you pursue that goal?

[13:25] herman Bergson: That makes it all very arbitrary Gemma

[13:25] druth Vlodovic: when i went from religious to atheist I found that I had a need to serve that I was able to remove, to me the existence of this need is the root of the problem

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it depends on what you believe is the answer to all those questions

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[13:25] CB Axel: What I want is irrelevant. Isn't it supposed to be what God wants?

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the same answer over and over

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some believe that god will let you know

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or has let you know

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the bible

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the koran

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the old testament

[13:26] CB Axel: But they can't both be right.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in buddhist beliefs

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes burt when you look at the result is seems that god has many wills

[13:27] herman Bergson: the result isnt very promising

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it always goes back to the same thing

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what do YOU believe

[13:27] herman Bergson: which is?

[13:27] CB Axel: So for others to tell me how to live based on the book that person wants to believe in is awfully arrogant of those people.

[13:27] herman Bergson: And that is the quintessential problem Gemma

[13:27] herman Bergson: is it just simply what everyone believes?

[13:28] CB Axel: I don't want someone who doesn't believe in evolution or global warming or things like that dictating how I should live my life.

[13:28] herman Bergson: that would be a hobbesian world....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it is

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think

[13:28] herman Bergson: everyone for himself

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if you don’t have a faith then so far we have not come up with another answer

[13:28] herman Bergson: Here again you see that we overlook one vital point...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): about the meaning of life

[13:29] herman Bergson: that is that we are social animals...

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so far we have explored several not meanings in the class

[13:29] herman Bergson: whatever you like to believe you can not go beyond the socio-biological facticity

[13:30] herman Bergson: This is only the beginning Gemma...keep faith :-)))

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep lololol

[13:30] herman Bergson: we can think of all kinds of scenarios...

[13:31] herman Bergson: but we are forced to keep them within our biological context...

[13:31] herman Bergson: In that sense Hobbes was wrong.....to suppose that the natural state of man was homo homini lupus

[13:32] herman Bergson: a double mistake even because the wolf is one of the most social animals :-)

[13:32] druth Vlodovic: if coherence of the group is the ultimate good then forcing everyone to obey a somewhat arbitrary god is the ultimate good (somewhat arbitrary makes faith more important and enhances the binding agent through cognitive dissonance)

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Druth, that is what religions in a group are  used for...

[13:33] herman Bergson: to enforce the WE - THE OTHERS feeling

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the one believing in one god tries to erradicate every other bellieving in other gods leading to war and terror

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just look how shia and sunnis blow each other up

[13:34] herman Bergson: That whole cloud above it with spirits god ....especially a punishing god is effective fantasy, I'd say

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so meaningless

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: well if we all would believe in just one - would that be paradise because we have no longer others?

[13:34] druth Vlodovic: actually if working against one's own good is the mark of someone not in their right mind then decrying god in the face of opposition can be said to be a mark of insanity

[13:35] herman Bergson: Cisk'a point is interesting....would belief in one god or something by all man create paradise?

[13:35] herman Bergson: The answer is quite simple....no

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

[13:36] druth Vlodovic: no?

[13:36] herman Bergson: The reason.....

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: I guess thats what a lot of people instinctively try to do - but the path there is wrong

[13:36] herman Bergson: Look at the group dynamics in any group of social aniimal

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there will always be nonbelievers

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: the question is where do the group dynamics come from herman?

[13:36] herman Bergson: the cohesion is not created by a shared belief...animals dont have gods or beliefs

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well they split up and reunite too

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed and yet they hold together

[13:37] herman Bergson: They are biological...innate Ciska....

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and they do not built stuff together that can destroy the earth ;)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also true

[13:37] herman Bergson: The need to protect....the need to control...the need to share game....

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: animals live in smaller groups

[13:38] druth Vlodovic: so we have belief because of cohesion, not cohesion because of belief?

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: and sometimes some of them leave a group and go to another

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: maybe because they do not belief in the thing the group wants?

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: or the group says you don't  have according to our rules

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: leave?

[13:38] herman Bergson: That look a bit like who came first the chicken or the egg Druth

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: the difference between man and primates is our consciousness

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: thats still jst a theory

[13:39] herman Bergson: we have to take that into account too

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: we are not able to really say that primates have no consciousness

[13:39] herman Bergson: we can reflect upon our actions....

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone whispers: who says they cannot?

[13:39] druth Vlodovic: well,it seems that belief is a shorthand to manipulating the world, either other humans or nature,the better the belief is at that the more likelyyou are to survive

[13:40] herman Bergson: have thence a sense of right and wrong

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: only because we do not understand their systems does not mean there is none

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: I fact - latest research shows more and more of tha

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: t

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: that they might have

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: (which any cat owner already knows)

[13:40] druth Vlodovic: but we see in reality that being poor and miserable gets you more kids, so being successful might be anti-darwinian

[13:40] herman Bergson: That is  only suggestive in my opinion Ciska....

[13:41] herman Bergson: ONly man has language, a sense of history

[13:41] herman Bergson: for instance

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: how can u conclude animals have no sense of history?

[13:42] herman Bergson: Some primates show rudimentary behavior that points at a sense of fairness indeed

[13:43] herman Bergson: Only we can record our past....

[13:43] herman Bergson: that does not mean that some animals have a good memory of certain events

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: but they have no conception of linear time....

[13:44] herman Bergson: they really don't  know about the big bang

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): again a reason to figure out the meaning of life

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: for me thats all thesis which we cannot prove

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said this is really complex

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but interesting

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: for example

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: lets say we find out

[13:45] herman Bergson: That is a nice thesis Ciska....

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: how the historical markers in our genes work

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: we find that out and can say that accurately

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: so when we trigger one

[13:45] herman Bergson: It puts on your shoulder the obligation to prove that these ideas  are wrong....

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: that initiates a behaviour

[13:45] herman Bergson: :-)

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: because I question your beliefs I must prove it ;`? ;)

[13:46] herman Bergson: no no....

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: I cannot

[13:46] herman Bergson: I base my beliefs on the ethological research on animal behavior

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: me too ;)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Like man as de Waal does or Konrad Lorenz...

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: and u conclude your way

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: and I conclude mine

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: and mine is: we cannot really know

[13:47] herman Bergson: that would make science a bit arbitrary, I'd say

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: why?

[13:48] herman Bergson: the deduce contradictory conclusions from the same data...ther emust be something wrong

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: science does find reproducible facts

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and sometimes it does not

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: so we have to search on until there are

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and as long as there are not

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: the between stuff is just simple belief

[13:49] druth Vlodovic: isn't the existence of social habits an indication of a form of history?   since it indicates learning from experience and experience is in the past

[13:49] herman Bergson: hypotheses, I'd say...not beliefs

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): goes back to my original comment

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it depends on what you believe is the answer to all those questions

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: thats my point

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:49] druth Vlodovic: "think" might be a better term,"beliefs" tend to be defended with emotion

[13:49] herman Bergson: but you are not free to believe just anything....

[13:50] CB Axel: Not necessarily, druth. Ants have social habits. Did they learn those from past experience?

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: well facts are facts

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many of the philosophers did

[13:50] herman Bergson: well, you may of course but it would lead to disaster

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is when people start labeling beliefs as facts

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: but thats not only a problem with religion

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes indeed

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: ita a problem with trump too

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:50] herman Bergson: That is what religions  do...

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): problem is i they really really believe it they do become facts to them

[13:50] herman Bergson: That is what Cernan did

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: or with just saying  animals have no consciousness

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perception becomes reality

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): took me a while to understand that

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: as far as we know up to now - they may not have one but we still have to prove that

[13:51] herman Bergson: It is not that black and white Ciska....

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: gemma - the interesting question might be

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i want some form of proof before i bellieve anything

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that it really is this way

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: do we need perceptions to have a reality at times?

[13:52] herman Bergson: some anmimals show signs of self awareness....but not to the level we have it

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but if you firmly believe it you don’t need proof

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you believe it has been proved

[13:52] CB Axel: I firmly believe that I need proof.

[13:52] herman Bergson: There were people who firmly believed that they could fly Gemma :-)

[13:52] druth Vlodovic: I only think I need proof, it is surprising how often I do without it

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: me too cb and I cannot see a proof that tells me animals have no consciousness

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they did

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess but still, no one can ever have seen god for ex, probably was just a dream and then they bellieve its the sign of god

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a second

[13:53] herman Bergson: Oh yes Druth

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but of course i require sigma 5 corfirm

[13:53] CB Axel: OK. I much prefer to have proof.

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cern term for when they are 100 % sure

[13:54] herman Bergson: If ia would analyse everything I say rpom the perspective of how must hard proof I have for every statement, I"d better shut up :-0

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it have happened sometime that i have been unsure if i just dreamt a thing but often it is a such strange thing that i logically conclude i must have dreamt that

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it cant be real

[13:54] herman Bergson: 99% of whta you study and accept as true is based on authority....

[13:55] druth Vlodovic: the biggie for god would be, if he can provide proof but doesn't he must have a reason for it

[13:55] druth Vlodovic: maybe he doesn't care?

[13:55] herman Bergson: Do you really believe I know what gravity is or that space is bend?

[13:55] herman Bergson: I havent the slightest proof...just the authority of for instance einstein

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I know gravity exist but i dont know yet how it works since it is so hard to study

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all i know is bigger mass = bigger gravity

[13:56] druth Vlodovic: or so they tell me

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so is somewhat related to number of atoms in total

[13:56] herman Bergson: that 's it..."or so they tell me"

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in an object

[13:57] herman Bergson: Very hot issue these days....facts and proof.....especially in politics :-)

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to be sure

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:57] druth Vlodovic: if we want to bring this back to religion, can you imagine a god who will not provide proof of his existence?

[13:58] herman Bergson: fact and alternative facts....where is the proof of the (alternative ) facts and so on

[13:58] herman Bergson: Good question Druth :-)

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i feel bashing up trump a bit

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): speaking of politics

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:58] herman Bergson: oops...

[13:59] CB Axel: I can imagine a god like that, because I used to believe in one.

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i do that when i watch the news

[13:59] CB Axel: And I have a good imagination.

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:59] herman Bergson: The fiirst god who really proofs his existence blows away all other religions and competitors :-)

[13:59] druth Vlodovic: tome it seems that either he 1) can't 2) won't or 3) doesn't care

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡ that would be..

[13:59] herman Bergson: I wonder why there isnt such a smart guy upthere?

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: om

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:59] CB Axel: Or doesn't exist, druth.

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or a woman?

[14:00] druth Vlodovic: maybe he is too smart to draw out attention   :P

[14:00] druth Vlodovic: "our"

[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes...a beautiful woman Beertje...that would be something....

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): kik

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why ia the God always a man?

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): eons of belief

[14:01] druth Vlodovic: I think most religions it is 50/50 or so

[14:01] herman Bergson: no no..Beertje no need of that...but it is an historical fact elas

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to justify repression of women based on religion i guess

[14:01] herman Bergson: I guess so too Bejiita

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just take saudi arabia as a horrible example

[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however bej teh first to claim women's rights were religions

[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well some religions are different then others

[14:02] druth Vlodovic: in the old days they called it "isms" which I think is a clearer way of putting it

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh time to go!

[14:02] druth Vlodovic: some religions probably didn't qualify as isms

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): late

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes time flew here

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for the class

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was interesting as usual

[14:02] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[14:02] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - thanx all

[14:02] druth Vlodovic: yes, thanks herman, everyone

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon!

[14:03] druth Vlodovic: have fun all

[14:03] CB Axel: Thank you, all.

[14:03] CB Axel: Very interesting discussion.

[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismisses itself ^_^

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time all

[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant believe it is almost the middle of Feb

[14:03] CB Axel: See you next week.

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[14:04] herman Bergson: Quite a discussion today :-)