652: The Afterlife as a solution...

Today we’ll discuss a theme, of which some of you will know that it probably is not my most favorite subject.

   

However, in our search for the meaning of life we have looked in all places except one. We looked in past, future and heaven.

   

Where we have not yet looked is after this life. We can not ignore this, because a lot of people even believe,

   

that after our death we eventually will understand the  meaning of life, because of what we’ll encounter in our afterlife.

   

Others assume that our earthly life is in fact a preparatory stage of the real life, which we have to earn during this stage.

  

Apart from a belief we hardly have any evidence, that there exists something like an afterlife. It is at least peculiar, 

  

that though billions of people have died no one ever came back to tell us how life is in the afterlife. Yet, some people claim to have (had) contacted people at “the other side”.

  

But when we look at the numbers, we get very odd statistics and the evidence we find is very thin. So why this belief in an afterlife?

   

A general characteristic of this afterlife seems to be, that it is much better and desirable than this earthly life.

   

This might suggest, that the more dissatisfied people are with this life, the more that might be inclined to believe in an afterlife.

   

This could be related to the observation Peter Watson mentions in his book “The Age of Nothing”. There is a significant relation 

  

between existential uncertainty and poverty on the one hand and the inclination to be religious and a believer on the other hand.

   

Another characteristic of this afterlife is, that it eventually will show us the meaning of life, of which the view was obscured in this earthly life.

   

But what will it be? Take for instance these 72 virgins which a muslim martyr will find in his afterlife.

  

We’ll not question the situation that there also have been female suicide bomb terrorists. I have no idea what these women is offered in their afterlife.

   

But if the ultimate meaning of life is to reach this state, I assume that the martyr will finally deflower all 72 virgins. What then…? What is the meaning of the afterlife then for him?

   

One more problem with this idea of an afterlife is the question “What kind of life do you mean?” Based on contemporary insights

   

we must assume that the mind ceases to exist, when the brain stops functioning.  Then it is concluded that we are dead.

   

The solution of this problem was to assume, that we’ll live on in a disembodied state. Any idea, what the meaning of such life could be?

Would be pretty frustrating, when you are facing 72 eager virgins, I’d say.

   

So far we mainly have been looking for a source, which would generate the meaning of life: the past, evolution, future goals, the transcendental.

   

It left us empty handed. Never was there this moment of: YES! That is what we are living for. That gives meaning to my life.

   

The only place we have not yet looked for a meaning of life is the here and now, the life we actually live. Will that answer our question?

   

To be continued….thank you… ^_^

 The Discussion

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Who says the 72 virgins are woman?...they can be old man as well....

[13:17] herman Bergson: No Beertje...a virgin is a young woman, I'd say :-)

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no, can be a man too

[13:18] CB Axel: Who says the virgins are eager? They could be 72 sexually frigid old biddies

[13:18] herman Bergson: By definition :-)

[13:18] herman Bergson: Then they still would be virgins indeed CB :-))

[13:18] herman Bergson: Poor Martyr...

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:18] CB Axel: Serves him right! LOL

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:19] herman Bergson: yes :-)

[13:19] CB Axel: For a time I thought reincarnation was a cool idea. I'd like to come back as a spoiled rotten house cat. °͜°

[13:19] herman Bergson: I guess none of you believes in an afterlife?

[13:20] herman Bergson: Oh there is that story about reincarnation CB...:-)

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh my CB:))))

[13:20] CB Axel: I've found more comfort in not believing in an afterlife than I ever found in believing.

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): depends on, however one thing i have thought about is why do i feel myself like me and not someone else and can it be that i have felt conciousness as someone else before

[13:20] herman Bergson: Old lady goes to some medium to contact her departed husband...

[13:20] herman Bergson: Medium makes contact and speaks...

[13:21] herman Bergson: She asks ..how is life over there John....

[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh terrific.....

[13:21] herman Bergson: in the morning we start with sex...

[13:21] herman Bergson: then a siesta...

[13:21] herman Bergson: in the afternoon sex again.....

[13:21] herman Bergson: and before going to sleep again

[13:22] herman Bergson: My goodness she says....never knew heaven is that good

[13:22] herman Bergson: Heaven he says....?

[13:22] herman Bergson: I am reincarnated in a rabbit in Australia

[13:22] CB Axel: LOL

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:22] CB Axel: Good one!

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its tricky because since my brain did not existed before that i have now there is nothing there to remind

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a very complex story but its a bit in sence of reincarnation

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but well its a sort of reincarnation thought but its so complicated

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i can only be myself and not someone else

[13:22] herman Bergson: But reincarnation doesn’t solve the problem either....

[13:23] herman Bergson: for at a given moment it must end...and to what meaning?

[13:23] CB Axel: I was appalled to find out that my father believes in an afterlife just so evil people in this life will get punished in Hell.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes...that is a common belief....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the basic idea is, if i would die, could i then wake up as another person and feel like myself, cause i was basically created from nothing and what says the process is not repeatable

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): If I think about an afterlife....how long is an afterlife ?

[13:24] herman Bergson: I`f you can not get them here..God will get the bad guys!

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a very dwindling thought makes my head spin when i think about it, hope you at least got something of my ida

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): idea

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is a problem indeed Beertje

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there must be souls of a million years old

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): virgins?

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:25] herman Bergson: have to be because muslims are not older than  a 1600 years

[13:25] CB Axel: The actress Julia Sweeney did a one woman show about becoming an atheist. In it she mentions that a priest told her that heaven may only be an instant.

[13:26] CB Axel: When she told her mother that, her mother slapped her.

[13:27] herman Bergson smiles

[13:27] CB Axel: Julia decided that maybe she shouldn't have told a woman with 5 children to take care of in this life that the heaven she was looking forward to was only an instant of time.

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how did this priest know that?

[13:27] CB Axel: It's an excellent show and is available on YouTube.

[13:28] herman Bergson: ahhh....:-)

[13:28] CB Axel: He was just speculating, Beertje.

[13:28] herman Bergson: You think so CB? :-)))

[13:28] CB Axel: Just thinking it was possible.

[13:28] CB Axel: I don't believe in heaven. I don't believe in an afterlife.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Or did he pray with the words "Expertus loquor"?

[13:29] herman Bergson: Amen

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what does that mean Herman?

[13:29] herman Bergson: Which means... I speak as an expert :-)

[13:30] CB Axel: I'm pretty sure there are no experts on the afterlife alive today. °͜°

[13:30] herman Bergson: I must agree CB...an afterlife makes little sense to me either

[13:30] herman Bergson: You may be right CB :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: Are you still with us Ciska?

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: I do ;)

[13:31] herman Bergson: Any ideas about an afterlife yourself?

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: just a believer

[13:31] herman Bergson: I see

[13:31] herman Bergson: I have trouble with believing ...

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: but I do not have a concrete idea about how many virgins walk there ,)

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: well u believe in economy ;)

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: so

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: heheheh

[13:32] herman Bergson: no I do not....

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: I think a belief per se is not a wrong thing

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: the question is what u do with it

[13:32] herman Bergson: economy  and the idea of constant growth is a belief indeed....and a devastating belief even

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: it is

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well depends how you interpret a belief.....

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: I do believe that a lot of people think they do not believe

[13:33] CB Axel: It was hard for me to accept that there is no afterlife, but once I did, it seemed like a good thing.

[13:33] herman Bergson: form a psychological point of view we all have beliefs which keep our lives on track...

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: so I choose for myself to be aware of my beliefs vs reality

[13:34] herman Bergson: Everybody has beliefs

[13:34] herman Bergson: Simple....

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: yes - thats what I mean - beliefs are unescapable

[13:34] herman Bergson: at school youlearn that the earth is round....

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: the problem for me are not the believers but those who think they do not believe

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: because they think their beliefs are truths

[13:34] herman Bergson: they told you  that...and you BELIEVE it....

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: or facts

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: and thats what makes life difficult for all of us

[13:35] herman Bergson: unless you go check it  yourself by spaceship

[13:35] CB Axel: True.

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we can't check the afterlife

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes.... when is a belief a truth.....

[13:35] CB Axel: None of us knows for certain what happens after death. It's all just our beliefs.

[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje.....

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: most debates we have are about beliefs where one party thinks its not a belief but a  fact while discussing a belief

[13:36] CB Axel: Exactly.

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: if u discuss a belief as a belief they just stand side by side

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: and non is exactly right or wrong - they are just beliefs

[13:36] herman Bergson: I disagree with you CB.....

[13:36] CB Axel: Oh?

[13:37] herman Bergson: After death the remains of the organism disintegrate and return to basic molecules

[13:37] herman Bergson: you can be ashes or in the stomachs of worms...

[13:37] CB Axel: OK. I guess what I mean is, what happens to our consciousness. Our spirit. Whatever you want to call it.

[13:38] CB Axel: I believe that it just ceases to exist.

[13:38] herman Bergson: To know what happens after death suggest that there MIGHT be some observer there

[13:38] CB Axel: But that's just a belief. I have no proof that there is no heaven it goes to or that it enters another body to be reincarnated.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well....consciousness just stops to exist, I;d say

[13:39] CB Axel: That's what I believe, but I have no proof.

[13:39] herman Bergson: unless you suggest that consciousness is something else than the product of my functioning organism

[13:39] CB Axel: That's what people who believe in an afterlife must think.

[13:40] herman Bergson: we can proof that a dead person doesn’t show the signs of a living conscious person....these signs are gone

[13:40] herman Bergson: If we couldn’t we never could declare someone dead

[13:41] CB Axel: There are people who claim to know how much the soul weighs. They say that's proof of a soul.

[13:41] herman Bergson: I know about that....

[13:41] CB Axel: They weigh a person just before death and then weight them just after. They say they get lighter.

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hello Joseph

[13:41] Joseph Bard (science24): Hi there :)

[13:42] herman Bergson: They base it on the difference in weight between the living and then dead body

[13:42] CB Axel: Hi, Joseph.

[13:42] CB Axel: Right.

[13:42] herman Bergson: Hello Joseph

[13:42] Joseph Bard (science24): Hi :)

[13:42] herman Bergson: But that is  nonsense of course :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Joseph

[13:42] herman Bergson: doesnt proof a thing....

[13:42] Joseph Bard (science24): :)

[13:43] herman Bergson: there can be  a dozen explanations for the slight loss of weight

[13:44] herman Bergson: which explanation to pick based on what arguments? :-)

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: maybe we will learn about that in the future when quatum physics becomes more clearly

[13:44] herman Bergson: and suppose it also happens with mice...?

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: so far we can only belief

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: belief is the blackbox till we know.

[13:45] herman Bergson: I think there always will be things, facts we have to accept and assume without proof Ciska

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guess

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so

[13:46] herman Bergson: Every time we find a better explanation for whatever it will be based on basic assumptions....

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: mh - physics did not proof over time that this isn't so?

[13:47] herman Bergson: we just have to assume that reality is mathematical for instance...

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: your theory would lead to the idea that we always must be believers of some sort- no other way - right?

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: (assumptions)

[13:47] herman Bergson: the only argument we have for it is, that it works

[13:48] herman Bergson: yes Ciska

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi Jeanne

[13:48] herman Bergson: Hi Jeanne

[13:48] CB Axel: Hello, Jeanne.

[13:48] Jeanne Valois (jeannevalois): hello ty :)

[13:48] herman Bergson: In that sense I think the Pragmatists were right....

[13:49] herman Bergson: Eventually the only argument we have is.....IT WORKS

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Jeanne

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: until it does not .

[13:49] herman Bergson: yes..and then we try to find another answer...

[13:49] CB Axel: Or until we find something that works even better.

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:49] herman Bergson: that is how science makes progress

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: well what we perceive as progress

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: sometimes might be een a backlash ;)

[13:50] herman Bergson: I mean with progress the increase of the ability to explain phenomena....

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: but thats of course mostly the case with "hardly science"

[13:51] herman Bergson: I mean the growth of knowledge here

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: well right now we increase for example via genomic alteration food plant outcome

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: that does not nesscessarily say something about the quality of that outcome

[13:52] herman Bergson: the quality is not in the growth of knowledge but by how it is applied

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: and therefor not necessarily tells us about the diseases which may or may not come along with it

[13:52] herman Bergson: no..

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: so on the long run this progress might not necessarily be one

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: but we simply don't know

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: so we belief

[13:53] herman Bergson: this process is driven by the BELIEF that the more we know the more we can do with reality, indeed

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:53] herman Bergson: But to what purpose????

[13:53] herman Bergson: again here is the question about the meaning of life

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): HAVE FUN!

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and feel good

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the easy way

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: I must disappoint you Bejiita.....

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not that easy i guess

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or i know that

[13:55] herman Bergson: Because....what when YOUR fun is not MY FUN....on the contrary for instance...it is my pain????

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some people don't care about that Herman

[13:55] herman Bergson: What justifies YOUR FUN?

[13:56] herman Bergson: that doesnt matter philosophically Beertje :-)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you mean like having fun by making others sad, like bullying?

[13:56] herman Bergson: because when it matters we'll ask such people to care!

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats not the way to have fun

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have fin WITH others is the thing

[13:57] herman Bergson: For instance, bejiita...

[13:57] herman Bergson: or even your fun may be sadistic torturing of people....

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its not my way of having fun for sure, but some people find it amusing, thats pur evil however

[13:58] herman Bergson: YEs ,,the point is....what means the concept of FUN.....

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed having fun for some sadly includes things like this, not me however

[13:58] CB Axel: It doesn't even have to be that obvious. Maybe my fun is getting drunk and driving recklessly through a crowded city. I could harm a lot of people with my fun.

[13:59] herman Bergson: I understand what you personally feel about it Bejiita....

[13:59] herman Bergson: but when you put it in a philosophical context, you runinto these questions

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, reckless driving is very common, they think they are in control but they are not

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or even maybe do it on purpose in worst case

[14:00] herman Bergson: good example.....their fun may be the death of others

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[14:00] herman Bergson: As you see...we all want to have fun in life...:-)

[14:00] herman Bergson: I agree with that....

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its indeed important to have fun in the RIGHT way

[14:01] herman Bergson: but when asked a philosopher....seems it is the end of fun :-)

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the right way Bejiita?

[14:01] herman Bergson: that is the point...how to decide what is "RIGHT" fun :-)

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): make others have fun with you and cause no harm

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and dont be evil

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): be good

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the right way

[14:02] herman Bergson: Very good Bejiita....here we are closing in on a meaning of life...

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): these dance battles i attend to and challenge others is a great way of having fun and make friends from all the world

[14:02] herman Bergson: As you see there is a relation between fun and ethics for instance :-)

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or relaxing in here or with my game creathon projects

[14:03] Joseph Bard (science24): are we living just to have fun ?

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or that softball thing i did before if you know what it is, swedish invention

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the Swedish name translates as indoor bandy

[14:03] herman Bergson: Good question Joseph

[14:04] herman Bergson: And a typical one too

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): floorball, not softball

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floorball

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this I dod before

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): did

[14:04] herman Bergson: This inclination  of homo sapiens to think there must be more than just eating, sleeping, working, eating , sleeping and so on

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Futsal on that too wich is the corresponding way to play football

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same rules but indoors basically

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the meaning of life can't always be fun

[14:05] Joseph Bard (science24): exactly

[14:06] herman Bergson: No Beertje...the moment you loose a beloved one who dies at a young age....a child for instance the question is wide open again....WHY he/she?

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaw yes

[14:07] herman Bergson: Again you are confronted with the question of meaning

[14:07] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are we here not for ourselves but for others?

[14:07] herman Bergson: Although we have not yet found the meaning of life, I guess you notice that there still are a lot of questions  to be answered :-)

[14:08] herman Bergson: Will be the subject of the next lecture Beertje ^_^

[14:08] herman Bergson: How did you know? :-)

[14:08] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :) intuitie

[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:09] herman Bergson: The we'll follow your intuition Beertje....^_^

[14:09] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): good:)))

[14:09] herman Bergson: May I thank you all again for your brilliant participation?!

[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:09] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[14:09] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[14:09] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman, it was a very nice evening

[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time then

[14:09] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman - thanx  all

[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:09] Jeanne Valois (jeannevalois): thank you, applauses

[14:09] Ciska Riverstone: take care bejiita

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[14:10] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[14:10] CB Axel: See you Thursday. °͜°

[14:10] CB Axel: I'm going to go tiptoe through the tulips. °͜°

[14:10] Ciska Riverstone: heheh

[14:10] herman Bergson: Thursday it is CB :-)

[14:10] Ciska Riverstone: u have the gestur`?

[14:10] herman Bergson: Pick a bunch CB

[14:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all

[14:11] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[14:11] Joseph Bard (science24): bye everyone , take care :)

[14:11] herman Bergson: Bye Joseph :-)

[14:11] Ciska Riverstone: take carejoseph

[14:11] Joseph Bard (science24): :)

[14:12] Ciska Riverstone: cannot find the tulips

[14:12] herman Bergson: they are outside Ciska :-) 

651: The Meaning of Life according to the Dutch...

Yesterday [March 15, 2017] there were general elections in the Netherlands. Never before had there been such a presence of foreign media.

   

Why were ABC, CNN, BBC and many others so interested in these elections? 

   

The reason is Donald Trump (USA), Marine le Penn (France)  Alternative für Deutschland (Germany), FPÖ (Austria), Geert Wilders (Netherlands).

   

It looks like the Western World is suffering of a tsunami of ultra-nationalism, protectionism, xenophobia, anti-islamism, racism and discrimination.

   

This looks like to be the ultimate expression of the longing for a meaning of life. We seem to have lost all direction and grip on our culture and traditions, according to Wilders.

    

This is of course due to our weak attitude and muslims, flooding the Netherlands, so he yells: “We want the Netherlands back!”

    

Sounds closely related to another slogan: “America first - America first”. This comes close to a nice meaning of life.

   

But because of the undemocratic and even unconstitutional ideas of the people I mentioned above, 

   

many people get scared and fear for the collapse of true freedom and democracy, when such politicians come to power.

  

And that is what the whole World Press expected to witness last night. 

  

The polls suggested, that the party of the populist Wilders would become the biggest party.

    

The leader of the leading liberal party and present prime minister had said, that we HAD to defeat this growing undemocratic populism.

  

If you are looking for a meaning of life, in fact a political ideology offers you one. It offers you an answer of the question “Why am I here?”

   

Are we here to build walls around our country, leave the Europe Union, forbid the Quran, deport all foreigners, especially muslims, 

abolish international development aid for poor countries and keep all money for ourselves, bridle the free press with its “fake-news”?

   

Behind me you see the answer. What was feared, if not even hoped by some, did not happen:

   

The PVV, the ultra-right party of Wilders, did not become the biggest party. On the contrary. The liberal part of the Prime Minister, the VVD, lost seats, but stayed the number one.

    

This means, that the 20 seats of the PVV have become politically irrelevant, because this party will not be invited to participate in any possible coalition.

   

You could say, that an election like this forces the voters to ask themselves the question: what is the meaning of life (in my country)?

   

The result of this general elections is the proof, that playing the US - THEM card does not work for the majority of the (Dutch) people.

    

The attempt to create increasing social and nationalistic polarization has not worked in the Netherlands.

   

Of course there is much more to say about these election results, but what puts me in an optimistic mood is, 

   

that the Dutch people answered the question “What is the meaning of my (political) life?” with their heart and common sense.

    

Most of the international journalist have traveled home again. There was nothing spectacular to report……. or actually there was.

     

Thank you for your attention ^_^

   

The Discussion

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*:•.•:*¨* hallo hello hi holla *¨¨*:•.•:*¨*☆

[13:16] CB Axel: Hi, Gemma

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hallo Gemma

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): congratulation on your election!!!

[13:16] herman Bergson: Thank you Gemma :-)

[13:16] herman Bergson: One moment....

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was glad to see it

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Gemma:)

      

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): may i pass this on to bixyl??

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps for the paper?

[13:19] herman Bergson: sure!

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Wilders was pissed...

[13:21] CB Axel: I was certainly relieved to hear the results.

[13:21] herman Bergson: He was indeed....

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was too

[13:21] CB Axel: Has Wilders been saying the election was rigged?

[13:21] herman Bergson: seriously disappointed :-))

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so sad

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wish i could say the same

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i feel like i am living in a circus

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why Gemma?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Well...to  some extend this result is due to Trump....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the trump situation is insufferable

[13:22] CB Axel: It's my opinion that xenophobia

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is everything I despise

[13:22] CB Axel: is a natural way for people to fee.

[13:22] CB Axel: *feel

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is insane

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes and the Dutch have seen this and know that Wilders is like Trump or even worse....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): every day a new situation

[13:23] CB Axel: Every day a new distraction, you mean.

[13:23] CB Axel: a distraction from what's important.

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Wilders yells at everything but has no solutions

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the people who back what he is doing

[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i just cannot understand it

[13:23] herman Bergson: and the Dutch voters in majority know this

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): keep the refugees out

[13:23] CB Axel: I find it hilarious that the people who backed Trump are the one's who are going to be hurt worst by the changes in the health care system.

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): keep any travellers out fro these places

[13:24] herman Bergson: I am very happy with this outcome...

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): save money by closing down programs for the poor

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): build the wall

[13:24] CB Axel: Trump has solutions, but they involve screwing over everyone but the rich.

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, i read that in our newspaper

[13:25] CB Axel: I've had it with this country. I hate it so much.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): give a big tax break to the business moguls

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh no

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): millions wont have any care securety anymore

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do not hate the country

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): goodness

[13:25] CB Axel: And take away the regulations that keep us safe so the moguls can rake in more and more money.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just trust that things will change

[13:25] herman Bergson: no you shouldn’t....

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:25] CB Axel: Why? This country hates me.

[13:25] herman Bergson: Let your voice be heard...

[13:25] CB Axel: It wants me dead.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the new budget proposed  will have a hard time to get through

[13:26] CB Axel: It's only value is money.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Countries have no feelings CB....

[13:26] CB Axel: I'm fed up.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the do nothing congress will have to do something

[13:26] CB Axel: OK. The people of this country want me dead.

[13:26] CB Axel: A country is it's people.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): why

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i dont

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): why do they wish you dead?

[13:27] herman Bergson: If they threaten you, go to the police :-)

[13:27] CB Axel: Because I'm a loser.

[13:27] CB Axel: I'm not rich.

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): join the crowd

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ahhh the American Dream/Nightmare :

[13:27] CB Axel: I won't become rich because I don't believe in crushing everyone beneath me to be rich.

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sorry skeleton

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well we do have rich people who are nto that way

[13:28] herman Bergson: To begin with...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the gates give 90 percent of their money to good practices

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all over the world

[13:28] herman Bergson: Even GAtes does some good with all his billlions

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as does buffet

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): much good!

[13:28] skeleton Ghost: microsoft are in cahoots with the nsa, cia, etc though

[13:29] skeleton Ghost: not the most magnanimous company

[13:29] CB Axel: Just look at what passed for popular entertainment in the recent past: reality TV shows where people competed against others in ridiculous completely staged battles of "life and death" just to win some money.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 90% of t great number of people with billions do that

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is a whole group

[13:29] herman Bergson: Possessing  so much money is in a way senseless......idiotic.....

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): those people are free to say no in a tv show CB

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): does everyone have a trump doll?

[13:30] herman Bergson: I think I have one, yes :-)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i use it whn i am watching the news

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): make a Wilders doll too please?

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i cant build

[13:30] skeleton Ghost: i just have the hat

[13:30] CB Axel: But they don't, Beertje. That's my point. People love watching greedy assholes beating each other up for money.

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but are they forced to beat?

[13:31] CB Axel: Trumps stupid TV show was very popular.

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i watched it the first year

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn did not like him then

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): pompous ass

[13:32] herman Bergson: This Trump seems to get all his intellectial input from TV, isnt it?

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well what a good way to spend an hour

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he does

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is also a conspiracy theorist

[13:32] herman Bergson: oh my...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:33] CB Axel: I've hated that pompous jerk from the first day I heard of him.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well almost ...

[13:33] CB Axel: With his ugly gold plated everything. Yeech.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...bad luck for you, I am sorry

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i saw a show long ago from Trump called You're fired!,,,I hated that man then

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): gold plated houses decorated i side

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): inside

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:34] herman Bergson: But we escaped WIlders by voting in the right way

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he has no manners,

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was it for years

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was so glad

[13:34] herman Bergson: So I was......

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now have hopes for France and Germany

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I doubt for France

[13:34] herman Bergson: But the fact is....

[13:34] CB Axel: I'll be holding my breath for those elections.

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): France is different

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i hope !!!!!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes fingers crossed

[13:35] herman Bergson: I am convinced that this man not really wanted to become the biggest faction at all

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Marie le Pen has high hopes

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: He has done everything to loose voters...

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but

[13:35] CB Axel: I can understand those feelings over there.

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you mean Wilders Herman?

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe your election will have influences

[13:35] herman Bergson: He didnt show up in hardly any public debate

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Beertje

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah ok:)

[13:36] herman Bergson: the reason is very simple....

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): strange looking man too

[13:36] CB Axel: Those of you across the pond from the US are much more likely to be attacked by terrorist then Americans, but people seem to think there is a bomb around every corner.

[13:36] herman Bergson: If he had become the largest party in parlement HE had to start forming a government....

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Wilders had just one A4 to say what he wanted to do when he was chosen

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's a bit uuhhmm.."weinig"

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes...and that would have become a humiliating disaster for Wilders

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his name was mentioned a lot!

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was worried

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes by the foreign press and abroad...not here

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): The media has the case blown up

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): about Wilders

[13:38] herman Bergson: Here he gave no interviews...didn’t show up in TV debates

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the news made it seem there was a strong possibility

[13:38] herman Bergson: only the two major ones

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is just like a tiny dog, barks a lot..

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well maybe the same will apply to France and Germany

[13:39] herman Bergson: I hope so too Gemma

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I don't know about France...

[13:39] herman Bergson: Here people have used their common sense.....

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): germans have common sense

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): The turkisch Erdogan has a lot of influence there

[13:39] herman Bergson: They have...

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto sure about French

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh gosh

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another fright

[13:40] herman Bergson: Noo he has not....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Just look at the results...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think they are having a fued

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): feud with Erdogan

[13:41] herman Bergson: Two members of the  socialist party who have a double pasport....Turkish and Dutch...in fact stole two seats...

[13:41] herman Bergson: this allowed them to participate in the elections....

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:41] herman Bergson: They have hoped that all Dutch turks would vote for them....

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes...and I don't like those guys

[13:41] herman Bergson: Only 2% of the voters did

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's too many..

[13:42] herman Bergson: No big Dutch (crypto-Turkish) faction in our Parlement

[13:42] CB Axel: What is that PvdA party that lost so many seats?

[13:42] herman Bergson: they only got three seats

[13:43] herman Bergson: That was the largest socialist party of the Netherlands....

[13:43] CB Axel: Oh. Interesting.

[13:43] herman Bergson: They made the most stupid move ever made....

[13:43] herman Bergson: in 2012 they formed a coalition with their biggest political adversary..the VVD..the liberals

[13:44] herman Bergson: The result was a 99% neoliberal policy for 4 years...

[13:44] Netherlands Second...:  THE NETHERLANDS has just been used by CB Axel!

[13:44] herman Bergson: We are not stupid....so we presented the bill to this party...

[13:44] herman Bergson: 29 seats lost!

[13:45] CB Axel: Wow.

[13:45] herman Bergson: there was a time this PVDA had 53 seats!!!!!

[13:45] CB Axel: Do all those different parties get covered by the press?

[13:46] herman Bergson: More or less yes...certainly

[13:46] herman Bergson: We have three groups...

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): This is a holiday from the project which is probably good with the time change going on

[13:46] herman Bergson: liberals - christians - social-democrats

[13:46] CB Axel: Here in the US we think we have a democracy, but in reality we get to choose between Democrats and Republicans. Other parties don't get their views heard hardly at all.

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): It certainly adds more thoought to the idea of the meaning of life

[13:47] herman Bergson: IN fact elections like this put an existential question to th epeople

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:47] CB Axel: And we don't even really choose the Republican and Democratic candidates. They let us think we do, but those people are chosen for us.

[13:48] herman Bergson: ANd the response was typically Dutch :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

[13:48] CB Axel: Well, here in America the meaning of life has been make more money than anyone needs and F**K everyone else.

[13:48] herman Bergson: I am really happy to see that not guts feelings but comon sense prevails here

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:49] CB Axel: Me, too, Herman.

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders where Ciska is

[13:49] herman Bergson: she was here last Tuesday

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even the Danish news was in dutch to congrat us:)

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah i did not get home in time

[13:49] CB Axel: I rely on the Dutch for commons sense and fair thinking.

[13:49] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:50] herman Bergson: Do so CB and you'll feel a lot happier :-)

[13:50] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:50] skeleton Ghost: cant go wrong with mercantile calvinism

[13:50] herman Bergson: Might be true indeed Skeleton :-)

[13:50] CB Axel: I've respected the Netherlands since the time of Copernicus. °͜°

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ohh that's a long time CB:)

[13:51] herman Bergson: He was a Polish astronomer CB

[13:51] herman Bergson: You'd better choose Erasmus :-))

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:51] CB Axel: Yes, but the Dutch respected his work unlike Catholic countries.

[13:51] herman Bergson: True!

[13:52] herman Bergson: We printed a lot in those days which could not be printed elsewhere

[13:52] CB Axel nods

[13:52] CB Axel: And now the Catholic church believes in evolution and global climate change.

[13:52] CB Axel: They're becoming the liberals! LOL

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actually the past few decades as more science was accepted

[13:53] CB Axel: If only they could keep their priests from the kiddie fiddling...

[13:53] herman Bergson: And they even believe that the earth is round and not flat

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and this Pope is a Scientist!

[13:53] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cb it is a small minority

[13:53] herman Bergson: Is true CB

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do not blame the whole church

[13:54] CB Axel: I saw a picture on Facebook of what a flat earth lunar eclipse looks like. °͜°

[13:54] herman Bergson: that is the problem with big institutions.....

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:54] CB Axel: Gemma, I don't just blame the priests that do it. I blame all the other that cover it up, too.

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think the Trump would probably like that one on facebook

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was counting them in

[13:55] herman Bergson: A pitty Ciska wasn’t here....Bergie had RL visitors...

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): aha

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did you make a viewer of vacation herman?

[13:56] herman Bergson: Actually no, Gemma..:-)

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:56] herman Bergson: I only have one picture :-)

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): haha

[13:56] herman Bergson: the viewer is behind em in my house

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahah

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): reallly flat !!!

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that looks cold...and windy

[13:57] herman Bergson: This is the only picture I have of this vacation

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the island???

[13:58] herman Bergson: yes....we were transported in that car to the very end of it....

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:58] herman Bergson: and it was COLD!

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i bet

[13:58] CB Axel: Jeeps are cold, aren't they?

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:58] CB Axel: Ah. You answered that already. LOL

[13:59] skeleton Ghost: looks like a fun time man

[13:59] herman Bergson: It hasnt proper seats either

[13:59] CB Axel: It looks like a great place to sit inside and snuggle.

[13:59] herman Bergson: It was fun Skeleton :-))

[13:59] CB Axel: By a fire. °͜°

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): now you can see that the Netherlands are eraly FLAT!!

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): reaLY

[14:00] herman Bergson: very flat there Beertje :-))

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): really!!

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[14:00] herman Bergson: Well..now that you know all my secrets.....

[14:00] herman Bergson: Let me thank you all for your patience :-))

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a good talk

[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed .... ^_^

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

650: Would it help to believe....?

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy”, Hamlet said.

    

We still haven’t come closer to an answer of the question about the meaning of life. Why are we here?

    

That we are here, is a matter of fact, but neither past or future nor a creator offer us a satisfactory justification.

     

But maybe we are looking in the wrong places? We overlook things in heaven and earth. 

   

Besides a lot of members of whatever religion there also is a large group of people who at least are “Somethingists”. 

    

Believers in Somethingism. Beyond this empirical world we live in, they believe, there has to be something transcendental, something more “above” or “outside” our reality.

      

Do this “Something” and a majority of religions, which offer such a transcendental something, bring us closer to a meaning of life?

   

The philosopher Bertrand Russell once said:”There is just the universe and that’s all there is.”

   

Yet we have to accept, that a lot of people find this idea unbearable and unacceptable. So we can not ignore this.

   

This leads to two questions we have to take into account. One question is, does there live  some god in this transcendental world, which might solve the WHY / BECAUSE question?

    

The second question is the possibility of an afterlife. Do we exist and prepare ourselves for this afterlife?

   

In the previous lectures we already have seen how in itself faith in God does not give us an answer to the question of the meaning of life.

    

But what faith in God can do, is give us the ability not to worry any longer about the meaning of life, 

   

because we can be certain, that God would not have created us without some purpose, which is worth it. We just need to trust, that God will care for us.

   

If we believe something like that, we actually say: “I don’t know what the Lord has in mind, but I trust him and put my fate in his hands.”

   

Does this bring us closer to an answer of the question of why we are here? I do not think so. We just dump the question in the lap of this god and we’ll follow him.

   

But how reliable is this god? How do we know that he knows why we exist and will help us? In fact such a belief is not rational.

  

I do NOT say “irrational”. It disregards the usual requirements of rationality of proof and evidence . Faith is thus

     

rather a way to evade the need for a rational justification than a deliberate attempt to disqualify reason.

    

This is a risky strategy. Take the apostle Thomas for instance. He wanted hard evidence, that Jesus really was alive.

      

What happens? Jesus shows up to prove he is alive. But he takes it a step further by humiliating Thomas 

      

by even asking him to put his fingers in his wounds. The very idea already gives me cold shivers.

      

And what is the conclusion? 

   

John 20:29 - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

   

So, those who believe and expect that god knows what is best for them, will base their actions on what this belief demands of them

   

and it seems that they are blessed, when they put aside the only means we have to understand our lives and the world we live in, our rationality and its requirements.

   

And we all have seen to what  atrocities this way of searching for the meaning of life has brought us in the past and still does today.

    

Thank you for your attention…. ^_^

The Discussion

  

[13:23] TooEasilyDistracted: C.S. Lewis experienced faith as beautiful - he thought that was precisely because God can't be proven.

[13:24] herman Bergson: I fail to see the logic in that

[13:24] TooEasilyDistracted: Rationality a powerful tool/method, and therefore can be dangerous to use.  Power and danger are proportional.

[13:25] TooEasilyDistracted: I agree, herman, C.S. Lewis does not seem "logical" in his faith.  Wrote good books, though.

[13:25] herman Bergson: RAtionality is the only tool which creates understanding of reality we have

[13:26] herman Bergson: This still doesnt mean we are rational beings.....I doubt that...we are "animals"

[13:26] TooEasilyDistracted: Unproven.  My pets seem to develop understanding of their worlds.  Does that mean they must be rational?

[13:27] herman Bergson: No...they learn by stimulus - response....seek pleasure- evade pain....all biological organisms do...we too

[13:27] TooEasilyDistracted: Yes, old protective system, very useful.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes but we humans have this additional feature of consciousness and rationality...

[13:28] herman Bergson: And as I put it today...believing asks of us to drop this rationality

[13:29] TooEasilyDistracted: My dog seems to understand that my understanding is wider than his.  That I may have a method to cure his pain.

[13:29] herman Bergson: No, I doubt that...

[13:30] TooEasilyDistracted: OK

[13:30] herman Bergson: the dog has learnt that when in pain YOU respond to that in a pleasurable way...that is all

[13:30] herman Bergson: so the meaning of "understanding" is very limited in this context....

[13:31] TooEasilyDistracted: Medical care is often unpleasant during treatment, dog trusts me that the end result is pleasurable.

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but does this discussion lead us to the measning of life?

[13:31] herman Bergson: no...just to dogs :-)

[13:31] TooEasilyDistracted: OK, Beertje, back to belief, and rationality.

[13:32] TooEasilyDistracted: I believe one thing, Consciousness IS.

[13:32] herman Bergson: the point today is, that we have to take into account that a lot of peoplestop thinking about the meaning of life by believing in some god who will take care of them....

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why do we have consiousness?

[13:33] herman Bergson: this is a difficult question Beertje....

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe people need to get pampered by some god

[13:33] herman Bergson: this WHY can mean....what caused it.....or "to what purpose" do we have consciousness

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like they need parents when they were children

[13:34] herman Bergson: What caused it we don't know at all....

[13:34] TooEasilyDistracted: Beyond that, I think there are multiple explanations possible of every experience.  I live agnostically.............. Beertje, I think consciousness is an experiment of evolution that has prospered.  A brain structure that monitors brain activity.

[13:34] herman Bergson: some glitch in evolution perhaps???

[13:34] TooEasilyDistracted: Why do you think "glitch", as if a fault?

[13:35] herman Bergson: here we are at the beginning of our discussion.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: is consciousness just an accidental event in evolution?

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could be

[13:35] herman Bergson: or has it a meaning...is it caused by.....???????

[13:36] TooEasilyDistracted: Yes, "could be", my thought exactly, Beertje

[13:36] herman Bergson: I think we'll never know...

[13:36] TooEasilyDistracted: I agree, herman.  Are we OK with that?  Can we carry on?

[13:36] herman Bergson: unless in the future some genetic engineer is able to create artificial DNA and gens that lead to an intelligent being

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we will never know what the meaning of life is

[13:37] TooEasilyDistracted: Make your best guess and go for it...

[13:37] herman Bergson: Depends Beertje....but you are right....we have todeal with the  question at least....

[13:38] TooEasilyDistracted: herman, how about the simulation hypothesis?  If that is true, then DNA manipulation happens within the simulation.

[13:38] herman Bergson: The very question "What is the meaning of life?" implies that we assume that there can be a meaning....

[13:38] TooEasilyDistracted: Also, artificial intelligence may develop consciousness soon.

[13:39] herman Bergson: I doubt that, TED....is an old story ...

[13:39] TooEasilyDistracted: Are we each asking the question for ourselves?  Or are we asking as a representative of humanity or as rep of life in the universe?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Why not ask the question "Can life have ameaning?"

[13:40] TooEasilyDistracted: Why doubt possible AI wakefulness?  How is wetware special?

[13:40] TooEasilyDistracted: I like that Q, herman.

[13:40] TooEasilyDistracted: Also, does it matter whether life has a meaning?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Here again we return to the previous lectures......

[13:41] herman Bergson: Meaning can mean function...

[13:41] herman Bergson: and yes life has a function in the overall ecosystem....

[13:42] herman Bergson: but this does not bring us what we'd love to hear......that there is something more than that....

[13:42] herman Bergson: for us..humans :-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: I guess htis is enough to give you a headache for today :-))

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): isn't this life enough?

[13:43] herman Bergson: It is ok with me, Beertje :-))

[13:43] TooEasilyDistracted: Humans are scientifically special - the first animals with the potential to steward all life on our planet.

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or to distroy it

[13:44] herman Bergson: and destroy it, TED :-))

[13:44] TooEasilyDistracted: yes indeedy

[13:44] herman Bergson smiles

[13:45] TooEasilyDistracted: That gives me a personal goal, to help tip the trajectory toward "steward"

[13:45] herman Bergson: you only need a president who cancels all climate agreements :-))

[13:45] TooEasilyDistracted: ...fulfilling my being as a human

[13:45] TooEasilyDistracted: We have freedom to start alternative energy projects, out-compete the fossil fuel companies.

[13:46] TooEasilyDistracted: Develop superior tech, make dirty methods obsolete.

[13:46] TooEasilyDistracted: President would find that hard to stop without martial law.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Fortunately people are working on that indeed

[13:46] TooEasilyDistracted: Love 'em

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well, my friends....

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i keep the temperatures on the north pole  on Spitsbergen, the whole winter it was barely under 0 C, now it rains a lot there, i think we are too late to take care about our planet

[13:47] herman Bergson: guess we saved the world for another day again....:-)

[13:47] TooEasilyDistracted: Yay, good discussion!

[13:47] herman Bergson: SO, thank you all for your participation again :-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: thanx all ㋡

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (wish I could type faster)

[13:48] TooEasilyDistracted: (sorry, I used to work keypunch)

[13:49] herman Bergson: what does that mean TED? :-)

[13:49] TooEasilyDistracted: IBM punch cards - I worked for Gallup Organization in late 70s, then IBM.

[13:49] TooEasilyDistracted: Typing info so computer could use it.

[13:49] herman Bergson: My goodness....THAT is old stuff :-))

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I did that too:)

[13:50] herman Bergson: I remember....programming was hell....one punch in the wrong place and all went down the drain :-)

[13:50] TooEasilyDistracted: We have seen amazing changes, the world has new opportunities

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but I have to translate the stuff in my head from dutch into english:)

[13:50] TooEasilyDistracted: Fortran IV in college

[13:50] TooEasilyDistracted: OMG Beertje

[13:50] herman Bergson: ahh yes Fortran....:-)

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I used the telex:)

[13:50] TooEasilyDistracted: Remember band printers?

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:51] TooEasilyDistracted: Woof.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ?

[13:51] herman Bergson: We're a bunch of dinosaurs here ^_^

[13:51] TooEasilyDistracted: Two brains each, heh heh

[13:51] herman Bergson: I like that :-)

[13:52] TooEasilyDistracted: We have perspective on the world, and probably more history and science education than most younger people.

[13:52] herman Bergson: That is because they are still young TED...had less time

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are still young too:)))

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: at heart ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: We are Beertje....we are :-)

[13:54] herman Bergson: lol...with 5 bypasses :-)))

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman & Class! ... it is useful to come in the class:-)

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins at herman