694: Are we intrinsically good or bad...?

What is the authentic Self? Who are we really? We are aware of our pose, playing roles, faking attitudes. We do all kinds of things.

      

We love binary thinking. So, when we look at ourselves,  it is just a small step you think: what am I really as human being: good or bad?

      

It sounds like a simple question, but we look at questions philosophically. So this is not a simple question.

     

The first thing I want to bring to your attention is the evolutionary perspective on homo sapiens since Darwin.

     

If you are willing to accept, that we are just like chimps and bonobos part of the animal kingdom, the afore mentioned question gets a different meaning.

    

Suppose you look at bonobos and you ask yourself the question: are these animals intrinsically good or bad?, I guess you might frown.

     

Or when you generalize the question....are animals intrinsically good or bad? You feel, that this is a kind of silly question,

    

because these concepts of good and bad do not apply to nature in general at all, but only to us , who have a sense of morality.

   

In other words, WE invented good and bad as concepts, of which we assume that they are applicable to our reality.

    

Then we start hot debates....it is bad.....NO!, your opponents says ...it is good and we really believe it leads a reasonable debate.

    

But take the binary couple: warm - cold. It is warm today...no it is cold today. Fact however is the question,  who sets the standard  for what is to be called warm or cold. 

    

What I want to say is, that this primitive binary thinking leads to nothing. Just take this: you are Republican or Democrat. I won't elaborate on that any further.

     

The point I want to make is, that all these Black or White discussions are artificial and ignore the fact that in reality there are at least 50 shades of Grey between black and white.

    

But in the history of philosophy we also had these two guys, stuck in the binary thinking: Hobbes (1588 - 1679) and Rousseau (1712 -1778).

     

According to Hobbes, if you were looking for your true self, you would find a real bad guy deep inside. Only rationality and a social contract keeps you in check.

    

According to Rousseau Hobbes creates an important fallacy,  makes really a mistake.

    

In his description of the natural state Hobbes based this on the human as we know it now and then places it in a situation without laws and regulations.

     

That is, of course, asking for problems. After all, the current person is constantly trying to be better, more handsome, richer and more successful than the rest.

      

The moment that all rules and laws disappear, this can only lead to a war. 

    

Hobbes, however, ignores the influence that society has had on human nature, argues Rousseau. 

     

Hobbes thinks that a society is necessary to make competitive egoists peacefully live together. 

     

But according to Rousseau, it is precisely society that has made us into competitive egoists. 

     

The natural state of man was much more peaceful and rosier than that of man in society.

    

In my opinion Rousseau was more on the right track than Hobbes. When you look at Bonobo and Chimp colonies,

    

what you see is that bonobos a more gentle and social towards each other and chimps more aggressive.

    

It looks like we are not just good or just bad in our true Self, but  a kind of mixture of bonobo and chimp behavior with many shades of grey.

   

In one respect Rousseau may have seen itncorrectly. The fact that society, culture can harm and distort our true Self.

     

In that context I only want to point at "Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps (2010)", where Gordon Gekko (Michael Douglas) says: "Greed is good!"

   

I may be mistaken, but I thought it was in that movie.

  

Thank you for your attention again ... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:22] Nasty Calamity: smiles

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:22] herman Bergson: Sorry...messed up my pulpit :-)

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ...has to read 50 shades of grey..

[13:23] Nasty Calamity: bonobos dont have messy pulpits

[13:23] herman Bergson: Got it as an Audio book for you Beertje :-)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Saves you the reading.....:-))

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes please:))

[13:23] CB Axel: Tim Minchin has a song about how people love to look at things as black or white. I can't think of the title of it, though.

[13:23] herman Bergson: No they don't Nasty...

[13:24] herman Bergson: So Iam no bonobo :-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes...that either / or thinking is a horror

[13:24] herman Bergson: It is so stupid actually...

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe our true self can be found when we are all alone

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: thats something I would support Beertje ;)

[13:25] herman Bergson: To begin with Beertje, my idea is that the Self is a process, like conscious is also a process

[13:26] herman Bergson: In that sense there is not "something" to discover

[13:26] CB Axel: The self is something we are constantly molding.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Like Heraclitus already said....

[13:26] herman Bergson: you never can step twice in the same river...panta rei

[13:27] herman Bergson: YEs CB

[13:27] herman Bergson: Take water.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: it is liquid....

[13:27] Nasty Calamity: so sorry - real life is calling me -  jumps off the chair and waddles away.

[13:27] herman Bergson: but it is impossible too take out the liquidity, nor pinpoint a something that is the liquidity

[13:28] herman Bergson: Bye NAsty :-)

[13:28] Nasty Calamity is offline.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye then nasty

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it is a property

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not something separate

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes...and we may say...a property of the brain....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): boil it or cool it down and you however can change these properties

[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to steam or ice

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gas and solid

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its still the same substance chemically however

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes but that doesnt change the issue....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): h2O

[13:30] herman Bergson: when you isolate the composing molecules, you hardly or even not at all can deduce liquidity from their properties

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is like these brain scans.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: you can analyse the brain up to its molecules....

[13:31] herman Bergson: but nowhere you find the property consciousness in them

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: Like life....

[13:31] herman Bergson: we know every molecule of your body....

[13:32] herman Bergson: but put in a jar....there will not be a Bejiita coming to life ^_^

[13:32] herman Bergson: This is what fascinates me about the Self, Consciousness and Life

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it takes more to it, much more complex stuff going on

[13:34] herman Bergson: it shows how simplistic this black/white reasoning is

[13:34] herman Bergson: But we love it....especially politicians :-))

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed very true

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and this have some really sad consequences sometimes when people get divided into either this or that but nothing in between

[13:35] herman Bergson: YEs Bejiita....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example people in need of assistance loosing it cause the laws are so square

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): taking into the account no variations from their "norm"

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we are all unique

[13:36] herman Bergson: and it goes deeper, for it is closely related to our almost biological inclination to see US and THEM

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just to make it easy for them i guess while they just care for themselves

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): making tons of money

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): doing a really lossy job

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus they refuse to see the reality

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in fact our Self is stuck in our bodies

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the fine details

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a prison for our minds

[13:37] herman Bergson: it is Beertje :-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: In a way the body is the carrier of the continuity of the Self

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess you can call it something like this

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: the body is the watercarrier through experiences ;)

[13:39] herman Bergson: No brain no consciousness...no body no continuity isn space and time for consciousness....which we maybe could call the Self :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Maybe consciousness is the awareness of the constant stream of sensory input and the input prom the processed data by the brain

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: still something has to be aware ;)

[13:42] herman Bergson: Awareness is an emergent property of the nervous system in this context....most organisms have it....

[13:42] herman Bergson: the ability to interact with its environment

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: but how is it sorted?

[13:43] herman Bergson: it is just there ...just like rain or air

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: well still we have an entity that sorts that one

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: all the input we are aware of

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes...the brain....it is a filter....

[13:44] herman Bergson: like there are colors we cannot see or sounds we can not hear.....while other organisms can

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: but we can influence how

[13:44] herman Bergson: yes yes....that is the interesting matter here....

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: so there is something

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: which can do that

[13:45] herman Bergson: we step beyond our awareness....and can think

[13:45] herman Bergson: you still look for a "something" Ciska?

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: no not really ;)

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: I can call it experience of self - that something

[13:46] herman Bergson: A process is an interaction between elements....and it results in some effect....

[13:46] herman Bergson: what we see everywhere.....no elements no process....

[13:47] herman Bergson: yet the proces is essential for a certain state of the elements....

[13:47] herman Bergson: like we need boiling water for tea :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we need education to develop our self

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yummy!

[13:48] herman Bergson: So, I am beginning to assume that the Self, like consciousness or life are processes...

[13:49] herman Bergson: When you say a thing like that Beertje it sounds as if the self is a thing you can work on...

[13:50] herman Bergson: I agree that you can shape a person by education....

[13:50] herman Bergson: But also without education he will be a person, an identity, a Self

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: I am only thinking out loud at the moment.....:-)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess its true

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but with education you will know more about everything around you

[13:52] CB Axel: Not if it's a bad or biased education.

[13:52] herman Bergson: I agree...it changes your possibilities to interact with your environment

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: you will have different perspectives with education

[13:53] herman Bergson: True CB...

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: does not say anything about the quality of those

[13:53] CB Axel: Right, Ciska.

[13:53] herman Bergson: And that is how we all have been educated.....biased ^_^

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: or the usefulness

[13:54] herman Bergson: That is why there are `republicans and Democrats in the US :-))

[13:54] CB Axel: People believe in the god they've been taught to believe in, for instance.

[13:54] herman Bergson: As I said....we all are biased....^_^

[13:54] CB Axel: My parents must have been bad teachers. They're Republicans who raised me as an Episcopalian. Now I'm a liberal atheist. lol

[13:55] herman Bergson: And it is the task of philosophy to make clear how and in what sense one is biased

[13:55] herman Bergson: Guess you are a philosopher, CB :-))

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] CB Axel: My father would say I'm a pain in the neck.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Better  there than somewhere else :-)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): give him a jar of Tigerbalm

[13:57] CB Axel: lol

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well...I guess you've got enough to think about again for today :-)))

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not to use tfor that 'else'

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): TAKE AWAY THAT TIGERBALM! IT SMELLS!

[13:57] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for yourparticipation.....

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): smells like mothballs

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:58] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well interestng again

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thanx all

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cuon thursday I guess

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class!

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bergie gave me a classic stream...gonna try that

[13:59] CB Axel: See you Thursday. Must run. Bye.

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now all

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy bejiita

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten herman

[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: gute nacht Beertje:-)

[14:00] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita :-)

693: An interesting elaboration...

In the discussion after our previous lecture there were mentioned a few things which may be of interest for our quest for the Self.

   

One was Sheldrake, who we may skip - nothing lost there -  and the other was, as I know now Sarah Durston, who is one of the authors of  "Universe, Life and Everything"

   

You can download it for free at : https://www.oapen.org/search?keyword=Sarah+Durston

   

The most interesting of this book for me is, that it repeats a lot of ideas, which I already have discussed with you through the past ten years.

   

Yet, it is good to notice that we are perfectly in sync with the contemporary philosophy of science and philosophy of mind.

    

Let me offer you some quotes, in which you definitely may recognize ideas we have discussed here already.

   

-QUOTE- Why would we need a new world view? The only possible reason is if the old one is failing,

  

and let’s be realistic: our classic, Newtonian, deterministic view of reality has been hugely successful. 

It has brought us modern science. It brought us the industrial revolution. It has revolutionised technology, medicine, agriculture, all aspects of our world. 

  

Why would we critique it? First of all, our thinking is so rooted in this paradigm that we have forgotten that it is a paradigm, a way of viewing the world, and not fact.

    

(...)  One of the most obvious problems with our current paradigm is that it cannot account for consciousness. 

    

Matter, including, biological, living matter, is built up of molecules and atoms, where the latter are the building blocks for the former. 

   

Yet these building blocks are inanimate and there is no reason in science that certain configurations of them would acquire awareness, consciousness, or indeed be alive.

   

(...) Well, there is no definitive evidence that we are our brains. There is a correlation between what your brain does and what you experience. 

   

But it is a huge assumption that what the brain is doing is causal to what you experience. 

  

And not only that it is causal to your experience of who you are and how you are, but also to the experience of seeing the teapot on the table. 

   

I see the teapot because of what my brain is doing. There is some truth to that of course, because if my brain were to stop working right now I would no longer be able to see the teapot. 

  

But there is this assumption that there is an objective external reality, a 3D world with a teapot in it that I also walk around in, 

  

and that when I see the teapot it is a somehow realistic rendition of it. All those sorts of assumptions..... -END QUOTE-

  

As you see....all kinds of things I am telling you already for years in this class. So you may believe that I was full of expectations.

  

Authors of such a book, referring to a revision of our paragiam....well, I always assume that they are smarter than I am. My mind was cheering and yelling "Show me the goodies!"

   

Elas, there weren't. The book is yet an interesting report of conversations with a number of smart people,

    

but the "goodies" showed to be a flirt with Quantum Physics. If I were mean, I would say...you always refer to quantum physics if you have no real answer.

   

The funny thing with quantum physics is, that, as far as I get it, small particles do not behave in the classic deterministic ways like decent atoms, but also kind of unpredictable, statistically intepretable only.

   

For the rest, the basic ideas are typical Kantian and with a touch of panpsychism, what we already have discussed with Spinoza(1632 - 1677).

   

Most disappointing statement I ran into at the end of the book: 

   

-QUOTE- "Clearly the ideas discussed in this book are not well worked out, and in no way scientifically proven." -END QUOTE -

   

So, I guess we still have to figure out ourselves what consciousness and our Self is. I have no problem with that.

   

Thank you again or your attention... ^_^

   

The Discussion

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): downloaded  but that quote could be applied to all the philosophies we have ever talked aobut!!

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in my view

[13:21] herman Bergson: I allow myself to disagree somewhat with you Gemma...

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: yes.. I only read the headlines so far and they make the point about language too...

[13:21] herman Bergson: for this is a very relativistic position

[13:22] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.

[13:22] herman Bergson: I think that the reductionist-materialistic  view on our reality is an answer to many questions....

[13:23] herman Bergson: But true.....not to all questions

[13:24] herman Bergson: This view has led to  a lot of scientific insights

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is that it does not help us in terms of quality

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: life quality that is

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: if u reduce everything to materialistic viewpoints

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: the quality in life is degenerating

[13:24] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: hats what we are seeing these days

[13:24] herman Bergson: No, indeed, but a panpsychism doesnt answer anything at all neither

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you think?

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for ciska that is

[13:25] herman Bergson: The quality of life has improved tremendously, I would say,  Ciska

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not equal for all

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but in general

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:26] herman Bergson: better medicine and education, increase of number of democracies in this world.....METOO :-))

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: no it has improved materially

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: but not on the human need basis for values

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): medically

[13:26] herman Bergson: no no....also socially....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: for instance...women have more rights at least in Western countries

[13:27] herman Bergson: There are Human Rights....there was a Court in The HAgue....

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: rights helps in the "material" world - in the molecualr one

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even to a lesser extent and bginning in eastern countries too

[13:27] herman Bergson: war criminals were convicted

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and some still being tried too

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): african countries

[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree that therestill has to change alot in this world...but al lot already changed....

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: yes herman but those sprang from the time when we had religion to motivate that

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: we do not have that any longer

[13:28] herman Bergson: No slavery anymore

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: In western societies

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: there is a void right now

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: which in the us

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have to disagree even with that

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: is filled by a slash back into religion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes...me too :-)

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: christian religion

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: and in europe by nothingness

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): evangelicals ae very strong i us

[13:29] herman Bergson: All we are discussing here for instance doesnt show a void at all....on the contrary....

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: yes thats the slash back because the void has not been filled yet

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has happened before in history too

[13:29] herman Bergson: I even refer to articles in my newspaper which discuss matters we are discussing here

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: well Trump happened because of the void

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: quality of life is missing in the us

[13:29] CB Axel: I prefer the void to evangelical christians.

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: I understand that

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: and I'm not saying

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: let them be

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): afraid i agree comletely

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: i'm saying there is something missing

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i seem to be surrounded by  them

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes me too CB....I am glad the decline of churches create this void and return creativity and philosophy of life and meaning of life to the individual

[13:31] CB Axel: Yes. Churches take away our freedom of thought.

[13:31] herman Bergson: In fact Sartre exposed this void already, that you mention Ciska

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: yes of course

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: all i#m saying is that this is the challenge we are standing in front of

[13:32] herman Bergson: Is there a touch of teleological thinking in your statement that there is something missing, Ciska?

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: my focus is on life quality - if that is teleological  - so be it ,)

[13:33] herman Bergson: Oh yes.... and that challenge already started with the Enlightenment in the 17th century....

[13:33] herman Bergson: When we began to look at our world with a scientific eye

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and ditch all religious mumbo jumbo

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: well no that just put one focus on the material wold

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: which was good

[13:34] herman Bergson: It is like when Yuri Gagarin entered orbit for the first time and asked.....where is that god and heaven?

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha at that time we did not have a clue of teh universe extent

[13:34] herman Bergson: I understand what you mean Ciska.....

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now we have at least a clue

[13:35] herman Bergson: We talk about reductionism.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: and there you are quite right.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: it seems that our whole existence is reduced to the smallest particle: MONEY and PROFIT

[13:35] CB Axel: The beauty of the material world as opposed to theology is that the material world can be observed and tested.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:36] herman Bergson: As a human being you are only regared as a cost issue

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true

[13:37] herman Bergson: We dont ask...how do you feel...but....what does it cost?

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:37] herman Bergson: There is your big void indeed

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: thats a direct outcome of " I want to materialize it all so it seems controllable"

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: and the problem is... most of the concepts we need to have a quality life - friendship love and such

[13:38] CB Axel: Yes. Trump's worth is only monetary. He is completely worthless as a human being, yet those "moral" evangelicals follow him like a puppy follows bacon.

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: will never be materializeable

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes, I agree....and people think that  all is under control when you have the money for it

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: consciousness neither

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unbelievable

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: so what materializem does is

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it enables people to not think

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: but reduce

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: thats my critique

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...I agree.....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "ok, now everyone now follows this screaming ranting gigant baby, it will surley be good then"

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think it will not

[13:39] herman Bergson: We have to keep in mind however, that there are several ways to look at issues....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Ciska's point of view is mainly a psychological, social approach

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: of course it is

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: because thats whats missin

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: g

[13:40] herman Bergson: in philosophy we just ask: WHAT is consciousness...WHAT is the self in relation to this material world

[13:41] herman Bergson: and maybe such insights might help to solve the psychological question

[13:42] herman Bergson: We have to understand what and who we are when we call ourselves huma beings

[13:42] herman Bergson: and we have to take responsibility for the answers we give

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: do you see it working this way?

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: I think thats an hierarchy approach which will fail

[13:43] herman Bergson: That is what man has done  through the centuries, I'd say

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and indeed it already does

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and that's the problem

[13:44] herman Bergson: What do you mean Ciska

[13:44] bijoux Lefevre is online.

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: maybe we need an relational approach now

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: instead of a material one

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: but for a relational approach u need people to make experiences

[13:45] herman Bergson: I agree with that..yes....

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: which they do not want to make

[13:45] herman Bergson: today there is only one religion: the belief in economic growth.....

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that will be a soap bubble

[13:46] herman Bergson: But slowly but steadily you see how people begin to question this neo-liberal dogma

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: they do

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully yes

[13:47] herman Bergson: so where there is time there is hope :-)

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: but a lot are psychologically crashed and have no  tools to balance that out

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that everything is not just about hoarding money

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: this is why we see so much madness going on

[13:47] herman Bergson: YEs I know.....

[13:48] CB Axel: Religion isn't the right tool for the job, though.

[13:48] herman Bergson: but I also have pointed out that we tend to see all problems of the world as something which happens and has to change during our lifetime.....then all is good

[13:48] CB Axel: Replacing no tool with a flawed one isn't the answer, imo.

[13:48] herman Bergson: but may changes have taken centuries

[13:49] CB Axel: That brings up another problem, Herman.

[13:49] herman Bergson: it took a hundred years to give women the right to vote....

[13:49] CB Axel: The evils in this world have taken centuries to develop, but people expect them to be eliminated in one lifetime.

[13:50] herman Bergson: those who started the fight for it never lived to enjoy it

[13:50] CB Axel: Or even one election cycle.

[13:50] herman Bergson: indeed CB

[13:50] herman Bergson: Trump is not an incident, but the result of events that already materialized before he was born....

[13:51] herman Bergson: he is the result

[13:51] herman Bergson: maybe he is the end of this process of materialistic greed and super wealth

[13:52] herman Bergson: who knows

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): most of the time there is someone standing up who is worse

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes but it is not an individual.....

[13:53] herman Bergson: like in Hitler's case.....it is millions of voters and supporters

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sadley enough

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): andn dutarte in the philippines

[13:53] herman Bergson: Like you said...these evangelicals follow T. like puppies

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): history repeats itself, luckily Trump have not managed to do much damage yet

[13:53] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:55] herman Bergson: As you may notice...I still feel optimistic about mankind :-))

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: well psychologically he has in setting this example

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes with all this i do too

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: its a mess that someone like that can be successful in our societies

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: someone who oviously lies all the time

[13:55] herman Bergson: but it is also a wake-up call Ciska....

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: and gets trhoguh with this

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this global nuclear war he will hopefully not suceed starting, its hopefully just BS

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but scary BS nontheless

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thats a huge damage

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): every 10 minutes !

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is BS?

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bullshit

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bull shit

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah:)

[13:56] herman Bergson: I think it is.....

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): makes one feel better to say it

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:56] herman Bergson: to begin with there does not exist such a red button

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thanks goodness

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still ranting about nuclear bombs that can wipe out the entire planet like a 5 year old in a sandbox

[13:57] herman Bergson: and believe me.....T. is not the one and only person who can say.....send the missles....

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): feels not really safe, luckily it is not just to push a button as he makes it sound like

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ture, but he knows the code

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed though he have the authourity to do it

[13:58] herman Bergson: Those codes do only order others do do certain things....

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it takes more than him to get ot going

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so some stronger mind will probably prevail

[13:58] herman Bergson: and believe me...when I can think of this.....important people already have discussed the situation when T.  planns to use these codes and issue orders....

[13:58] herman Bergson: generals are also human beings with families

[13:59] derk Koenkamp is offline.

[13:59] herman Bergson: and everybody knows T. is a moron and idiot...to quote his staff :-))

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the thing is if anyone would do this the entire planet will probably die

[13:59] CB Axel: He may not push a physical button to start it all, but he may push Kim's psychological buttons.

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): better to bury these idiotic domsday weeapons

[14:00] CB Axel: If Kim fires missiles, I can only hope that one lands in Washington, DC.

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cb

[14:00] herman Bergson: This Kim person is in the same position as Mr. T. I would say, CB

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): million innocent people live there

[14:00] CB Axel: Yes, with fewer people to stop him.

[14:00] herman Bergson: I hope not

[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will read teh book i downloaded

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i downloaded it too

[14:01] herman Bergson: it has interesting parts Gemma.....

[14:01] herman Bergson: my only problem with it is that it does not deliver what it suggests

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah well

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check it as well

[14:02] herman Bergson: but still worth reading

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): keeps me from the pub:)

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or coffee shop?

[14:02] CB Axel: I read in the pub. °͜°

[14:02] herman Bergson: The interesting point is that our physics paradigm does not explain everything....

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have great coffee shops here

[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: that was sooo very interesting again! ty herman&Class :-)) and  Long live the love

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and SL

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i heard

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:03] herman Bergson: Yes Bergie

[14:03] herman Bergson: \o/

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): may make it tuesday will see if i get out early enough

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: thanx everyone

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:03] herman Bergson: We'll look out for you Gemma :-)

[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this interesting meeting again....

[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[14:04] CB Axel: So long, everyone. See you Tuesday. °͜°

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): w do

692: Where to find our authentic Self.....?

It may be late, but can never be too late to wish you a healthy and joyful 2018. I hope you enjoyed your Holidays.

    

Let's get back to our Self again. The most fascinating characteristic of the Self is, that we don't know, what it really is.

    

We can not pinpoint it nor find it in our fMRI-scans or brain activity. Yet we are all convinced, that we experience a Self, a personal identity.

         

Why are we struggling with this knowing/not knowing?

         

An article in my newspaper made me think of a possible answer.  It was an article about philosophy of science.

        

The most common view in science these days is a reductionist-materialistic one. This means, that science loves to analyse everything into its smallest parts.

        

To define what is real we can choose for molecules, or atoms, or quarks. This inclination to reduce the complex to simple constituing componenst has a long tradition.

        

The Ancient Greek philosophers already did it. Everything was composed of water, fire, earth, or even atoms, like Democrites claimed in the 5th century BC.

      

In India the Jain,  Ajivika and Carvaka schools of atomism may date back to the 4th century BC. The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools later developed theories on how atoms combined into more complex objects. 

    

Descartes (1596 - 1650) suggested to solve problems by splitting them up in smaller problems and he reduced man to one feature: "I think..."

   

Julien Offray de La Mettrie (1709–1751) reduced the homo sapiens to a machine or to put it in an other way, to plain matter.

      

Nowadays we still follow this line of thinking. La Mettrie already came up with the suggestion, that. mental processes depended on bodily, that is,  material processes.

    

In 2010, the Dutch neuroscientist Dick Swaab published his "We are our brain", which became very popular: man reduced to his brain.

  

The question is, why we want to reduce what we experience into what the real reality is, for instance, what really is real are atoms, which combine into molecules and so on.

   

It has a reason: we can measure these tiny elements. We can count them, experiment with them, repeat experiments. 

   

We can use mathematics on them. Think for instance of our numerous computer models of whatever you like, weather models, economic models, process and mechanic models .

   

And we come to a pragmatic conclusion: it works. However, this is only apparently so. It works to some extend.

   

We can study as many brain scans as we like, but the only thing we see is changing oxygen levels in the brain. We don't see consciousness, nor the Self.

    

Philosophers, who think about our authentic Self, also tend to become reductionistic. Hobbes and Rousseau were two of them.

    

Next time we'll find out whether man's authentic Self is basically good or bad.

     

Thank you for your attention again.... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:23] CB Axel: Thank you.

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:23] Quistis Hoorenbeek (quistis.shippe) is online.

[13:24] herman Bergson: I  see that you are not shocked :-)

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i didn't know that that long agon people knew about atoms

[13:25] herman Bergson: Well...not exactly in the way we know about atoms.....

[13:25] CB Axel: They hypothesized about atoms back then.

[13:25] herman Bergson: Democritus just thought that reality consisted of small particles...

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even that thought is genius

[13:26] herman Bergson: The interesting thing here is that someone came up with  that idea in those days

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes it is amazing....

[13:26] herman Bergson: It shows a great imagination

[13:27] herman Bergson: but the main point today is that we try to define reality.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: preferably in terms of the smallest particles....

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what did men do with that knowledge in the years between bc and now?

[13:28] CB Axel: They invented microscopes so they could try to see those tiny particles. °͜°

[13:28] herman Bergson: The Alchemists somehow kept it in mind....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....we wanted to see the unseeable...

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: they tried to look at it from different persepctives and mixed things together in different ways to have different results, Beertje, thats how I see it...

[13:29] herman Bergson: For some reson chemists discovered that matter  like water or gases were particles....molecules

[13:29] herman Bergson: So I think that this reductionistic idea has a long history.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: But it doesnt explain everything....

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is the philosophical problem....

[13:30] herman Bergson: It doesn't explain what life is, or consciousness or the Self....

[13:31] herman Bergson: So in fact we have an incomplete view of reality

[13:31] herman Bergson: and we do not (yet) know how to complete it

[13:31] CB Axel: Interesting. Scientists try to explain life by looking smaller and smaller. Religious people look bigger. °͜°

[13:32] herman Bergson: I was thinking about that myself CB...

[13:32] herman Bergson: but in fact religious thinking is also kind of reductionistic....

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: It's interessting because I  was at the Iching class just now which has this different view

[13:32] herman Bergson: all life is reduced to the will of god or allah

[13:32] herman Bergson: by some religious people

[13:33] CB Axel: What does the I ching say?

[13:33] herman Bergson: I have no idea :-)

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: it was my first class so bear with me for a moment

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: as I just digest it too

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: as far as I understand it so far

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: they explain the world context driven

[13:34] herman Bergson: You fattend a I Ching class Ciska?

[13:34] herman Bergson: attend

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: I did attent the fist iching class yes

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: at the wbh

[13:34] herman Bergson: interesting

[13:35] herman Bergson: I discussed it in my Non Western Philosophy project....

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: so they have the ying and yang thinking underneath

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: that even puts objects in relation to intention

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: (which of course is very buddhist)

[13:36] herman Bergson: Maybe even the dualistic monism according to Tao :-)

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: so they would basicalyl take an atom

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: and have a look at it in a ying and a yang way

[13:37] herman Bergson: Difficult subject.....

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: so while we separate meaning from object

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: they embrace that

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: as far as I can see

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: which makes things as far as I see up to now complex of course

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: still its interessting

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: a different point of view

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: which seems to include the aliveness

[13:38] herman Bergson: I'll look into it again :-)

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: join me next time ;)

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: then we are late together

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it starts at 12

[13:38] herman Bergson: I could do that indeed :-)

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: its a text class too

[13:38] herman Bergson: Great......

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it free to join Ciska?

[13:39] herman Bergson: the Yin / yang philosophy and Tao is a kind of holistic philosophy when I am not mistaken....

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: yes beertje

[13:40] herman Bergson: this is contrary to the Western philosophy of science and underlying metaphysics

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: it is holistic yes

[13:40] herman Bergson: We love to analyse things.....but run into trouble with this approach

[13:41] herman Bergson: becaus ewe can not get hold on phenomena as life and consciousness

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: yes i'm curious as to how their approach works there

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: if it does more

[13:42] herman Bergson: In the newspaper article it was about someone who seemed to offer a solution, but unfortunately it wasnt really clear to me what she meant

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: o who was it?

[13:43] herman Bergson: I have to dig that up from the waste paper container Ciska :-)

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: o no worries

[13:43] herman Bergson: Dumb that I didnt note the name

[13:43] herman Bergson: no no....now I want to learn more about her ideas....

[13:44] herman Bergson: There also was a reference to Sheldrake....

[13:44] herman Bergson: someon from the 80s or 90s.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: a philosopher...

[13:45] herman Bergson: who also tried to develop some kind of holistic ideas....

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: Rupert Sheldrake?

[13:45] herman Bergson: But he seems to be forgotten now

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes him

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: ic

[13:46] CB Axel: He sounds interesting.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes CB...in his time he was.....but I don't know much about his ideas....

[13:47] herman Bergson: have to do some reading here :-)

[13:47] CB Axel nods

[13:47] herman Bergson: ok.....so I Ching....Rupert Sheldrake...and this unknown scientist I have to dig up again :-)

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: *gg*

[13:48] herman Bergson: ohhh...maybe I can find it in the digital edition of my newspaper!

[13:48] herman Bergson: saves me the digging :-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: It is cold outside ^_^

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: very possible yes

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: I was just curious if the name rings a bell for me

[13:49] CB Axel is picturing Herman rummaging through the trash outside his home.

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:49] herman Bergson: lol..indeed CB :-)

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: * giggle *

[13:50] herman Bergson: But it is all well organized....we havve special containers for paper, green stuff from garden and general trash

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and plastic

[13:50] herman Bergson: So it is a rather clean job

[13:50] herman Bergson: ah yes Beertje....forgot the plastics:-)

[13:51] herman Bergson: So, my friends, thank you again for your participation :-)

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:51] herman Bergson: And again...welcome in the New Year :-)

[13:52] CB Axel: Yes. Happy new year, everyone. °͜°

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): happy new year CB

[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting!all! ty you herman and Class and a good 2018 <3 p="">

[13:53] CB Axel: It's nice to see you all again.

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: happy new year everyone yes

[13:53] herman Bergson smiles

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: and thanx herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: I agree CB ^_^

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nice to be back:)

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fresh and fruity in the new year:)

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: has everyone already the happy dancer? not sure

[13:54] CB Axel: I have to get used to thinking again. LOL

[13:54] herman Bergson: I know the feeling CB :-)