697: Create your own Self.....

Both Rousseau and Marx state that an authentic life is a life in which we are guided by our true needs. 

  

In order to lead an authentic life, we have to coincide with our 'real' self, or the self that is determined by these true needs. 

   

According to the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre (I905-1980), however, this is the world upside down. 

   

To be able to live authentically it is not necessary to first know who we are by nature. 

  

There is absolutely no 'real' self that can be 'discovered' in one way or another and with which we can or can not coincide. 

   

It is exactly the other way around: an authentic person is a person who makes choices in all sincerity 

  

without being guided by a so-called human nature that dictates how he should act. 

  

Sartre illustrates this with the following example.

  

 A young man must choose between fighting for his homeland during the war or assisting his sick mother. 

  

This is a devilish dilemma, because the young man would, of course, prefer to take care of his mother and to prevent her from dying lonely, 

  

but he also knows he has to fight for his country to prevent the enemy from winning. 

  

According to Sartre, in this case it is not that one of these two choices is more authentic than the other. 

  

It is not so much which choice is made. It is the way in which the choice is made and justified that determines whether the choice is genuine or not. 

  

Sartre states that the choice of the young man is not sincere when he shifts his responsibility for choice to something or someone else, 

  

for example by asking a friend what he should do, or throwing a dice to determine his choice. 

  

If he then says that he acted like that because his friend said so, or because fate has so determined, the young man acts "in bad faith".

  

He denies that he is fundamentally free and therefore himself bears full responsibility for his choice.

  

This sounds of course very promising: creating your authentic Self by radical and independent choices.

   

However, this is academic philosophy. This would only function when we were a kind of abstractions from reality.

   

We are, however, organisms living in a real world and this real world influences our choices.

   

Besides that, we are not empty vessels at the  moments, that we have to make choices. We HAVE information, which we have to take into account.

   

We also have values, which stronger than a friend's advise can influence our choice and decision.

  

So.,  the idea of absolute freedom of Sartre is to academic and abstract? As such yes, but consider this:

   

When you have to make a choice, you do that within the context of a real world, that is, within the context of your information and values.

    

It is very well possible that two persons in the same situation thence come to different choices.

    

Thus, maybe, personal authenticity is not defined by the choices you make, but by the ways, the motivations you have to come to your decisions.

   

Thank you for your attention... ^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

John Searle: The Mystery of Consciousness (1997)
Antonio Damasio: Self comes to Mind (2010)
L.de Bruin/F. Jongepier/ S.de Maargt: IK, Filosofie van het Zelf (2017)

The Discussion

  

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:20] herman Bergson: Take your time to think this over.....:-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ㋡

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think the with all sincerity is a clue

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but still

[13:22] herman Bergson: Bsic idea is, that in the freedom of action we have, it is our style of dealing with things which shows our authenticity as a person.....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one man with all sincerity may say  my mother deserves my attention

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): teh one man .. i love my mother but

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the country mUST survive

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): survive

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not easy as usual

[13:23] CB Axel: Why must the country survive?

[13:23] CB Axel: What has it ever done for me? hehehe

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the end its all up to you and you are always responsible for your action

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): because his mother might become a slave

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or die

[13:23] herman Bergson: Becaue otherwise his mother will be killed, CB

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): anyway

[13:23] CB Axel: But then, my mother never did much for me, either.

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he can take care for his mother..and he can do that all by himself..taking care for the country takes more people

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he can't do that alone

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): waht lousy choices

[13:24] herman Bergson: But of he stays with his mother they might call him selfish

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): buthe is sincere

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): selfish?

[13:24] herman Bergson: heartless towards his fellow countrymen

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): by taking care for his mother?

[13:24] CB Axel: If he goes to war, his mother might call him selfish. °͜°

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): again it all depends on sincerity

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes CB

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed a tricky situation

[13:25] herman Bergson: Maybe it all depends on information and values....

[13:26] herman Bergson: BAsic value  = human life e.g.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the worst case he might be accused for being a traitor if not doing the war

[13:26] herman Bergson: enemy is close or far away.....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how sad the case can be

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:26] bergfrau Apfelbaum: a good child looks after the sick mother and sends the neighbors to war .. smile

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:27] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what a mess

[13:27] herman Bergson: that  is a smart child...Bergie :-))

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sartre was always a pain

[13:27] CB Axel: Does he have siblings who can care for the mother? I'm guessing not. On the other hand, there are plenty of young men a country can sacrifice to war.

[13:27] CB Axel: LOL, Gemma.

[13:28] herman Bergson: What is clear  here is that we are not absolutely free in our choices at all...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he can say, i will take care for my mother and what ohters think of me , I don't care

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can't please everyone

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are pushed so to say by different things and situations

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially us!!!!!!!!!

[13:29] CB Axel: He can also leave his mother and his country behind and live his own life as he pleases somewhere else.

[13:29] Jeroen (roto.diesel) is online.

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that would be a different authentic self

[13:30] Mariella (mariella.deezul) is online.

[13:30] herman Bergson: If there are no moral values, CB,  he could, I guess :-)

[13:30] CB Axel: The Ayn Rand self.

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes omg

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OUCH

[13:30] herman Bergson: YEs...dont stick with the loosers...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that person

[13:31] CB Axel: Don't forget, I'm living in what I call a "I got mine" society.

[13:32] herman Bergson: If the persoon took his values and information into account , it would help him to choose

[13:32] herman Bergson: But this is not the absolute freedom of choice Sartre had in mind

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: what did he have in mind?

[13:33] herman Bergson: To be honest...what he HAD in mind, I cant tell you  regarding freedom (of choice)

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): told you he was a pain

[13:34] CB Axel: It's a secret? Or you don't know?

[13:34] CB Axel: lol

[13:34] herman Bergson: I agree Gemma :-)

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: heheheh Gemma

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nothing ness

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all or nothing

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:34] herman Bergson: But what I said at the end of my lecture.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: what makes you authentic is HOW you come to your choice, your decision...

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: meaning intentions based on values?

[13:35] herman Bergson: You make an evaluation of the situation and then decide

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yes 8fold path in buddhism.

[13:36] CB Axel: Not the decision itself but the process?

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: things keep repeating  - I wonder if Sartre knew that one

[13:36] herman Bergson: Wel..guess I jus invented the wheel again ? :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: how u get there yes CB - u get to the decision because of....

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes CB

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: psychologically spoken - shrinks usually work on intentions with people

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: and then on values

[13:38] herman Bergson: That makes a statement like....AS a child you already......... :-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: understandable

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: (which should help people to become more conscious and make better decisions for themselves in their situation)

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopefully

[13:39] herman Bergson: Cognitive Emotional Therapy

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: would be one yes

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am sure there is a group in sl that deals with that

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:40] herman Bergson: Which could mean that our authenticity...our self ...is the process in ourself....to deal with the world

[13:41] herman Bergson: Something to think about....:-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Oh...and before I forget....

[13:41] herman Bergson: You'll get a week off....

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always leave with something to think about

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:42] herman Bergson: No class next week, for then I am on the Island again :-))

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another vacation??

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: happy vacation ㋡

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonderful

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Schier here he comes:)

[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ahh yeah:-) wonderful

[13:42] herman Bergson: of course Gemma....

[13:42] CB Axel: You go on as many vacations at Trump. LOL

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: don't swim too much ;)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa i was just gonna ask are you going to Shier again?

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): making up for all the intense weeks we had in teh early days

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] CB Axel: You deserve it. He doesn't. °͜°

[13:42] herman Bergson: lol...indeed CB....

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): much less vacation

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha indeed

[13:43] CB Axel: I need a dose of nature, too. I think I'll drive down to the river and go for a walk after class. °͜°

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice

[13:43] herman Bergson: So....let me dismiss this class and wish you a nice week with extra spare time :-)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): anyone like mardi gras parades?????

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a good time there now Herman

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have lm for  a really nice one

[13:43] CB Axel: Have a great time, Herman!

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:44] herman Bergson: Franny's? Gemma?

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fijne vakantie

[13:44] CB Axel: Mardi Gras isn't for a couple of weeks, isn't it?

[13:44] herman Bergson: thank you all :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never rememr when it is

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just that it is a sign of spring

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: thank you ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: nor do I Bejiita ^_^

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I thought you would be in Maastricht due Carnaval:)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have only done it in here

[13:44] herman Bergson: oh my!

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like burning man

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:45] CB Axel: Laissez les BON TEMPS rouler!

696: Again we made the newspaper.......

If you want to know whether we are up to date with the subjects we address here, just listen to the following. It is from my newspaper of last Saturday.

    

- QUOTE - Is man good by nature? Or are we wild savages and is our aggression only contained under a thin layer of cultural varnish? 

      

It seems to be a nineteenth century question that has long since been answered by modern biology, but the opposite is true. 

     

The jury is still in deliberation, not in the least because the suspect has shown contradictory behavior. 

     

Sometimes man is more violent than any animal, but usually we know very well how to keep the sweet peace. 

     

For both visions examples can be found in nature. Advocates of the noble savage point at the bonobo, a primate that rarely quarrels. 

     

That is our natural nature, they argue, the violence has crept into it through civilization, because we built settlements, acquired property and developed weapons. 

     

No, says the other camp, look at the baboon or the chimpanzee. 

     

They have a tight hierarchy based on violence and in their conflicts they regularly kill members of the group. That is how we are - only social agreements keep us in line. - END QUOTE -

     

Almost the same as our Hobbes - Rousseau story. 

     

The reason for the newspaper text was an article on a publication of the anthropologist / primatologist Richard Wrangham in the American science magazine Pnas.

      

Richard Walter Wrangham (born 1948) is a British scientist. Following his years on the faculty of the University of Michigan, 

      

he became the Ruth Moore Professor of Biological Anthropology at Harvard University and his research group is now part of the newly established Department of Human Evolutionary Biology.

       

His main point in the article is, that the aggressiveness in man is treated one - dimensionally,

     

while according to Wrangham there are two dimensions: there is PROACTIVE  and REACTIVE aggression.

      

Catching a prey or killing an opponent or enemy are examples of proactive aggression. The perpetrator acts cold-blooded and takes as little risk as possible.

    

The situation is different when you feel threatened or frustrated. Then an aggressor is angry and excited and kicks and slaps around without asking himself, if this is wise and reasonable.

    

Wrangham claims that aggression is in the genen of homo sapiens, but that by "self-domestication" during his evolution he has learnt to control himself.

    

The hypothesis, because it isn't more, sounds attractive, but there is no proof. The criticism of Wrangham is, 

     

that he straightforward assumes, that  that homo sapiens by nature is an aggressive individual.

    

Frans de Waal, that other famous primatologist, wonders, why the aggressive Chimp is always the leading character 

    

and why the peaceful Bonobo, as well as the female genes in general are constantly kept out of sight in this debate.

   

The conclusion is that Hobbes and Rousseau were both right or wrong. In other words, it is 2018 and we still have no clue 

   

whether our evolutionary ancestors used to live in peace with each other or loved to smash each others skulls as their basic entertainment.

   

Thank you for your attention.... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think personality might come into play a bit here as well as external influences

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example i cant feel myself having anything of that in me

[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes....

[13:21] herman Bergson: and what strikes me all the time is that they time and again want to come up with a theory that usus one feature only as the explaining one

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are men afraid to show their female side?..Afraid not to be manly?

[13:21] herman Bergson: Either we are aggressive OR we are peaceful

[13:22] herman Bergson: why can't we be both...

[13:22] herman Bergson: And as Beertje seems to suggest....is this theory creating male dominated? :-)

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the influence of all the aggressive movies and games

[13:23] CB Axel: We're peaceful towards our own groups and violent toward anyone we view as different.

[13:23] herman Bergson: At least that is a general observation indeed CB

[13:24] herman Bergson: Maybe from an evolutionary perspective, because we want to defend our food and women

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): much I think are based on norms, males should not cry, they should be macho ect ect not show weakness bla bla

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus violence is a result of them trying to live up to this strange norm

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which i think is not natural at all

[13:25] herman Bergson: so violent behavior is caused by culture...?!

[13:25] CB Axel: Women need to stop expecting men to be our protectors. Most violence against women come from male members of their own group.

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a big bit i think is caused by this indeed

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe to ventilate the stress

[13:26] CB Axel: I think you're probably right to a certain extent, Bejiita.

[13:26] CB Axel: I think there are other factors involved, too.

[13:26] CB Axel: Maybe

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there are other factors too i guess

[13:26] herman Bergson: LIKE ROUSSEAU SAID.....PRIDE....SOCIAL EXPECTATIONS....

[13:27] herman Bergson: And of course that ever presence of religions, belief systems

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: religious or political...

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a combination of many things

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the social ladder

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: mmmh - so in general - the existence of expectations is the root?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but which are natural and wich are not so to say

[[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is poverty a reason for violence?

[13:29] herman Bergson: never the root, Ciska, but one of the possible roots, I'd say

[13:29] CB Axel: In the past physical strength was needed to protect the family and to do many jobs. Men had to be the protectors and providers then.

[13:29] herman Bergson: History shows it is Beertje

[13:29] CB Axel: Things have changed, but I'm not sure that what is expected of men has changed.

[13:30] CB Axel: They still have to be strong, decisive, and in charge.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, the old norms still holds

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have not changed much

[13:30] herman Bergson: To be  a winner or a looser is still a main feature of the American dream, I'd say

[13:30] CB Axel: Actually, they DON'T have to be all that. We just act like they must.

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: well changed must be lived - women hat to live theirs too

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: their change

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: by going to work

[13:30] CB Axel: Women have to stop demanding that of men, and men have to let women take over some of the old roles.

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: and voicing their truths.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things have to change for sure

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki, i better get back to the reparty i came from before it ends

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lot going on today

[13:32] CB Axel: Women don't need men to provide for them or protect them any more. Men have to stop acting like women do need them and need to start being someone women want to have in their lives.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:32] CB Axel: Being wanted but not needed.

[13:32] herman Bergson: I think it is all because of our inclination of binary thinking....

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): think this binary thing play a great role as well

[13:32] herman Bergson: The US / THEM thinking....

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing in between

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki gotta run

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but cu next time

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:33] CB Axel: Aw. Bye, Bejiita.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita....have fun :-)

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: Guess we'll never know this basic feature of our Self....

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the us/them thinking , wasn't that always the case?

[13:34] herman Bergson: It was Beertje

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing has changed

[13:35] herman Bergson: You believe or you are an atheist.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: no...this method of thinking is and has been always popular

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everyone believes something..even an atheist

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yeppje Beertje ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: I disagree Beertje....

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): o?

[13:36] herman Bergson: It is a too easy use of the word "belief"

[13:37] herman Bergson: If you want to start such a debate you first need to define "to believe"

[13:37] herman Bergson: for instance....religious vs. not religious

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't want to start a debate..

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was just a thought

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes I know...I only point at the fact that it is a loose statement.....

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: no I disagree there

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: belief is the absence of proven knowledge

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: and it applies to all kinds of states

[13:39] herman Bergson: ok Ciska :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is a way to define belief....

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: for example to the misinformed one too

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: and as everyone has field where they cannot know things

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: we all believe

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: atheists too

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: they just do not admit it

[13:40] herman Bergson: but when you look at science, which claims to be knowledge, we have to conclude that all this knowledge is based on assumptions about reality....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Take for instance the Big Bang theory.....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: of course - so there are a lot of beliefs there too

[13:40] herman Bergson: only base on assumptions

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: economy is based on assuptions

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: assumptions

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: and we see where that leads us

[13:41] herman Bergson: whole neoliberalism is based on an assumption.....

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: gender issues are based on assumptions

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: so

[13:41] herman Bergson: the belief in the self regulating market......

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: there is a lot of belief out there

[13:42] CB Axel: Science is based on assumptions that can be tested.

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: not all cb

[13:42] herman Bergson: In fact  we only live by our believes about reality....

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: even atheists

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: so the statement u started herman

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes.....you can deduce hypotheses from assumptions and you can test them indeed

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: is just not true

[13:43] herman Bergson: as I said...define "belief"

[13:44] herman Bergson: if you define it as assumptions about reality everyone you may call a believer....

[13:44] herman Bergson: but that is a trivial conclusion, I'd say

[13:45] herman Bergson: It becomes only questionable when you can not test deductions that are deduced from your assumptions

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: so to take a mindset and just condemn it because it uses assumption just as anything  else is not trivial`?

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: for me thats the same level of triviality

[13:45] herman Bergson: I am sorry...I don't get your point Ciska

[13:46] CB Axel: I don't condemn anyone's beliefs. I just don't want them to dictate how I should act based on their beliefs.

[13:46] CB Axel: Go ahead and believe in a god. I have not seen proof of a god, so I don't believe.

[13:46] CB Axel: If someone can prove to me the existence of a god, I'll change my mind.

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is what I mean by deducing testable  hypotheses from assumptions

[13:47] herman Bergson: I agree CB

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: no one need to believe in god - thats an individual thing

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: no one needs to believe in economics - thats an individual thing too

[13:48] herman Bergson: not in an epistemological sense....

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: the later has just more influence on how we live

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: in a society which does

[13:48] CB Axel: Tell that to people in the US who want to make laws that violate my rights by imposing their beliefs on me.

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: yes - they already did that and called it economy CB - without a god

[13:49] herman Bergson smiles

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska :-)

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: so now the god people try the same thing

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: of course u are pissed by that

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: I totally get that

[13:50] herman Bergson: What do you mean?

[13:50] herman Bergson: Which people?

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do they want you to do CB?

[13:50] CB Axel: Not me personally, but I see them trying to control other people.

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: but the truth is - u could be as much pissed by the economy rules which were established and now hinder people from getting the health insurance they need if they do not have certain jobs

[13:50] CB Axel: People who want to marry whomever they love.

[13:51] CB Axel: People who don't want children.

[13:51] herman Bergson: Do you think of debates on abortion or euthanasia or homosexuality and marriage and so on?

[13:51] CB Axel: I wish every unwanted baby born in the US was left on an anti-abortionist's doorstep.

[13:51] CB Axel: Yes, Herman. Exactly those things.

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: CB I  totally get that - but without religion - there are people too having such ideas and boding over those - GOD is just a symbol to put that under

[13:52] herman Bergson: Still a long way to go......

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: I am not pro Religion should dictate a state things - not at all

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: I am just pro seeing things as they are

[13:53] CB Axel: I don't see what God has to do with the economy, other than people using God as a reason to screw over other people.

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: and beliefs are beliefs

[13:53] herman Bergson: As I said before...it is any  ideology that imposes its will on others

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: o - the churches who promote that promote specific economy goals too

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: they are highly political in the US

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: I totally see that.

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: I just don't want the same mistakes to happen in the future with different labels

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: then we had in the past with the label religion

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: if we want to change it does not help to repeat the same system with another name

[13:55] herman Bergson: Tell that Mr.Twitter in the White hOuse :-)))

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: hehhe

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: well

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: he makes his reality

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: in a way he is a believer

[13:56] CB Axel: He is his own god.

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:56] herman Bergson: Guess we saved the world enough again for today :-))

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:57] CB Axel: LOL

[13:57] herman Bergson: SO time to dismiss this class :-)

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i believe it's time to go to sleep

[13:57] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:57] CB Axel: Goede nacht

[13:57] CB Axel: Y'all

[13:57] herman Bergson: Yoiur place or my place?

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :) welterusten CB

[13:58] herman Bergson: Bye CB

[13:58] CB Axel: See you all, Thursday.

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: cu cb take care

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i sleep in my place

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Beertje

[13:58] herman Bergson smiles

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: and welterusten herman

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska

[13:58] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:58] herman Bergson: then I'll sleep at my place :-)

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight, welterusten, Gute Nacht

695: How we alienate from our true self.....

In the search of our true Self you have trouble to evade the binary thinking and reasoning, I referred to last Tuesday.

   

Although Rousseau did not accurately explained, what our true and natural self is, he pointed at least at some features, which are not part of our true self: competition and egoism.

   

And these traits are almost unnoticed forced upon us by society. Feelings of pride and vanity are stimulated in us due to social expectations.

   

The quintessence is that we thus alienate from our true self, according to Rousseau.

   

This conviction, that we get out of touch with our basic needs, alienate from our true roots, you also find in the ideas of Karl Marx (1818 - 1883).

    

The culprit is here the free market economy and the industrial revolution. 

   

Workers spend their lives at conveyor belts in huge factories, producing just a small part of some product.

   

The craftsman, for instance the carpenter, is in an essential way connected with the things he makes, while the worker in the factory only makes legs for chairs.

   

He may even never have seen the complete and finished chair of which he makes parts all day. The only thing he sees at the end of the month is his salary.

    

Of course this way of production makes mass production possible, but in the eyes of Marx it also undermines the close relation between worker, production process and end product.

   

In that sense the worker not only becomes alienated from the end product of his work but also from his true self,

   

Like Rousseau Marx has a lot to say about how we alienate from our true self. On the other hand they both are not really clear about what this natural state of man is, which he is alienating from.

   

At the base of their thoughts is a kind of utopia, where we all live and can enjoy our true self. Unfortunately it has led to often seriously totalitarian societies .

   

Nevertheless philosophers like Rousseau and Marx bring negative features of our social organization to our attention. Things like greed and exploitation of human labor. 

    

But also here we can become trapped in a binary approach. For instance in a debate about what is greedy behavior and what is not.

  

At the beginning of "One-Dimensional Man" (1964) Marcuse writes, "The people recognize themselves in their commodities; 

  

they find their soul in their automobile, hi-fi set, split-level home, kitchen equipment,"

  

Do we need all these products, the latest smartphones, Nike shoes and Gucci bags? Are they our basic needs? Is consumerism our true self?

   

I am always amazed, when I hear that for instance Facebook made a profit of billions of dollars. And how? Only by selling advertisement space for companies.

    

It means that we are constantly bombarded with advertisement through all kinds of channels. Are they offering what we really need?

  

As you see, Rousseau, Marx, Marcuse, they all show us how we lose sight on our true self. I'll use this weekend to try and find my authentic self.

   

Give it a try too.... and thank you for your attention again ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): been looking for weeks!!

[13:19] herman Bergson: Any luck already, Gemma? ^_^

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the same as you

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still looking

[13:21] herman Bergson smiles

[13:21] herman Bergson: I am having ideas about this Self....

[13:21] herman Bergson: To begin with we all have a feeling of personal identity....

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:22] herman Bergson: When you get up every morning you still feel you are the same person as yesterday

[13:22] herman Bergson: You might say to yourself...no I am not the same for I have changed my mind om some serious matters

[13:23] herman Bergson: But still there is that transcendent I

[13:23] herman Bergson: The spectator in yourself

[13:24] herman Bergson: I am still wondering about this lin eof thinking....

[13:24] herman Bergson: For in a way I have the idea that this "I" is empty.......

[13:25] herman Bergson: But yet an active coordinator and organizer

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:25] herman Bergson: Our conscious is a constant flow of information....

[13:25] herman Bergson: coming from inside and outside....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Just the constant buzzing of the central nervoussystem

[13:26] herman Bergson: and then there is that organizer.....

[13:27] bergfrau Apfelbaum: my husband will be able to tell me. or my children :-)

[13:27] herman Bergson: our own consciousness....our "This is me" :-)

[13:27] herman Bergson: What will he tell Bergie?

[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i think he know my ME better

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): aha

[13:28] herman Bergson: hmmm...

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:29] herman Bergson: Some lectures ago I told you about the biases we have.....biases we are not aware of

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is quite well possible that an other person could bring them to your attention indeed

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that awful test

[13:30] herman Bergson: ahh yes...those tests :-)

[13:31] herman Bergson: On the other hand I'd say that such biases are normal....

[13:31] herman Bergson: a pert of this ME/organizer

[13:31] herman Bergson: a part

[13:32] herman Bergson: It wouldl be exhausting when we had to be aware of how to organize all our input each second...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it would

[13:32] herman Bergson: We develop patterns, habits....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Like David Hume said: Custom is the great guide of life

[13:33] herman Bergson: So maybe analyzing this organizer in us tells us about our true Self ??!!

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how to do that

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): isnt that all introspection??

[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Gemma.....how....

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we talked about ages ago?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Not necessarily....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Can be part of it.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: But  analyzing the way you interact with your environment in the broadest sense .....might also be wa y to insight

[13:35] CB Axel: Hello, Beertje

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Hi there Beertje

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sooo sorry

[13:35] herman Bergson: Hello Beertje :-)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hihi

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hello Herman and class

[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hi:-)) Beertje

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are still struggling

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with self

[13:36] herman Bergson: As you  see....I am still thinking about it....

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: Hello Beertje ㋡

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hallo Ciska

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I missed a lot I guess

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The Self is a tricky beast indeed

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will be in the blog

[13:38] herman Bergson: It is elusive...yes....but maybe we can catch it yet

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me, myself and I were forgotten the class

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope so

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe¨

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): catching is hard

[13:39] herman Bergson: I still have the feeling that we eventually can come to conclusions that make sense

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): o thank you Bergie:)

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopw so

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope so

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yvw:-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Where there is time, there is hope Gemma....and we still have time :-)

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just that

[13:40] herman Bergson: He not yet pressed his big RED BUTTON :-)

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed we are still here

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and we have not blown away by the storm

[13:41] herman Bergson: And it's one that works, he has promissed

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or cold

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa i heard there is a massive storm now ongoing

[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok....I'd better dismiss the class, now that we start talking about the weather ^_^

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): up here in Sweden there is no sign of the storm however

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)))

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well was interesting as usual

[13:42] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation :-)

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman  - thanx everyone

[13:42] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thought provoking

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as  usual

[13:43] herman Bergson: good ^_^

[13:43] CB Axel: I'll see you all on Tuesday. I'm off to search for myself in a theater. °͜°

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu ㋡

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh good cb

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have fun

[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you all:-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: Very nice CB

[13:43] herman Bergson: I have to search for some flowers now in my inventory :-)