700: Two Concepts of Freedom and our Autonomy

According to John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), as we saw in the previous lecture, for being autonomous it is crucial 

   

that we are free to determine ourselves what we do and that we can act without being hindered by others. 

   

Based on this idea of ​​autonomy, Mill criticizes different forms of paternalism, that is, measures of the State 

   

that are imposed on citizens, regardless of whether or not they have chosen it themselves.

   

According to Mill, the government can not determine what is best for us - we have to do that ourselves. 

   

Paternalism is only permitted, if it can be prevented by means of these measures, that a person harms someone else. We always need a police apparently.

   

We can basically do what we want with a knife, as long as we do not put it in the back of another person. 

   

My freedom thus ends where the freedom of the other begins. In addition, paternalism is permitted 

   

when it comes to measures that are aimed at people who are not able to make autonomous decisions themselves, 

   

such as people with a psychiatric disorder or young children. 

  

Mill, for example, would have no problem with compulsory education, but probably with the obligatory wearing of a seatbelt or the obligation to insure against medical expenses.

The freedom ideal of the classical liberal is thus an ideal of 'negative freedom': it is about the absence of external coercion. 

   

In contrast to this ideal, according to the British philosopher lsaiah Berlin (1909-1997), is the ideal of 'positive freedom'. 

"Two Concepts of Liberty" was the inaugural lecture delivered by the liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin before the University of Oxford on 31 October 1958.

    

Positive freedom "is involved in the answer to the question 'What, or who, is the source of control or interference 

   

that can determine someone to do, or be, this rather than that?' The two questions are clearly different, even though the answers to them may overlap."

     

Positive liberty may be understood as self-mastery, and includes one's having a role in choosing who governs the society of which one is a part. 

  

Berlin traced positive liberty from Aristotle's definition of citizenship, which is historically derived 

    

from the social role of the freemen of classical Athens: it was, Berlin argued, the liberty in choosing their government granted to citizens.

    

So positive freedom means that you determine yourself, by acting in accordance with what you really want. 

     

If you are determined by desires that you would rather not have, then you are in a positive sense unfree. 

   

For example, if your girl/boyfriend is addicted to cigarette smoking, she enjoys negative freedom to the extent that she is not obstructed in buying cigarettes. 

   

However, we can ask ourselves whether it is freedom in a positive sense. Her choice to buy cigarettes is in a way determined by her addiction, and not by herself. 

   

Her real desire could be to stop smoking. The ideal of positive freedom is therefore linked to the idea of ​​a 'real' me: the person you would actually like to be. 

  

It is not so much about the absence of external coercion as the ability to determine yourself. There is, however, a weak spot in this positive freedom.

   

You are free and autonomous, if you can do what you REALLY want, but here is the tricky part:

   

Is it always the case that it is you yourself, who can tell what you really want or desire?

  

The logic is somewhat like this: 

   

(1) Smoking is harmful to your health and life expectancy, (2) nobody wishes to harm his own health (3) yet you smoke.

   

Conclusion: I have to tell you what you REALLY want, that is, preserving your health and life expectancy: Thence I forbid you the freedom to smoke.

   

Thank you for your attention ....^_^

The discussion

[13:22] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): There is also the issue of harming others through smoking so it also leads into paternalism that way.

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): uche

[13:22] CB Axel: Maybe the smoker doesn't care how long he/she lives.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes indeed, Thales

[13:23] CB Axel: Maybe feeding the addiction is more important than living for a long time.

[13:23] herman Bergson: That is the problem with premise one and two CB

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who says you will longer live without smoking? you will never know

[13:24] herman Bergson: But they will say that you'll harm society due the the high medical costs for treatment you might cause

[13:25] CB Axel: I could breathe the cleanest air on earth, eat only the healthiest foods, and still die tomorrow.

[13:25] herman Bergson: hat life expectancy argument is indeed also a tricky one

[13:25] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): The problem here is a typical human struggle of short term rewards vs potential long term detriments.

[13:25] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): We're not good at thinking long term.

[13:25] herman Bergson: Got a point there Thales

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): will you give up smoking for a few longer years?...living in anger or so? or have fun from smoking?

[13:26] herman Bergson: The quintessence here is to be able to be your TRUE SELF....

[13:26] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): whatever that is :)

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( I don't smoke)

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes indeed....we are in search of the Self here at the moment with our project

[13:27] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): know thyself

[13:27] herman Bergson: The results are rather elusive and liquid, I'd say, so far :-)

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not too fond of this philosopher

[13:28] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Who, Mill?

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:28] herman Bergson: I can imagine.....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now here he would be a libertarian

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not liberal

[13:29] herman Bergson: He created the idea of the invisible hand, if I am not mistaken

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i can understand some of the appeal of being totally  alone in control but we do live in society

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is shared

[13:30] herman Bergson: That idea of sharing is almost lost at the moment....

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i doubt he would be out fixing roads

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or  stopping a person from stabbing someone

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or putting out fires

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when his house was burning down

[13:31] herman Bergson: Mill believed that the economic process would balance things....

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh right

[13:32] herman Bergson: sothat everyone would profit

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): where is the proof

[13:32] CB Axel: He sounds like a Republican.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks he may be one step away from ayn rand

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in many ways

[13:32] herman Bergson: The problem is that this idea is a fundamental mistake.....

[13:32] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Which idea?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most of them

[13:33] herman Bergson: the idea of the "Invisible hand"

[13:33] herman Bergson: and our modern idea of permanent economic growth

[13:33] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): is that the economic process?  It's been a long time since I've read Mill

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): "So positive freedom means that you determine yourself, by acting in accordance with what you really want. "

[13:34] herman Bergson: Then we first should stop advertizement :-)

[13:34] herman Bergson: and commercials :-)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: Mill assumed that there would be a kind of natural relation between demand and supply...

[13:36] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): The invisible hand theory I guess was a nice idea but it's been put to the test in reality and shown to suffer from the same problems as many systems... that greedy/power hungry people will find ways to game the system in their favour.

[13:37] herman Bergson: (Guess I started typing my memoires :-)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there you go

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true thales

[13:37] herman Bergson: I agree Thales

[[13:38] herman Bergson: So in what way can we give autonomy to the individual to let him be himself...

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well....let's not try to answer this question

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we never have

[13:39] herman Bergson: for this is the quintessence of all political debate at the oment

[13:39] herman Bergson: At the moment it seems that internationally the people who favor more sharing are the loosing ones

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is so true

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary

[13:40] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): At the moment maybe... but demographic shifts may also be happening

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the new young generation here seems to be more thoughtful about that

[13:40] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Young people seem to be thinking about this stuff with a different attitude

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes...and like in times of Marx....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:40] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Which gives me hope

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lets not swing too  far

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: they experience that It isn't working for their parents....

[13:41] herman Bergson: There was a small group of greedy capital and means of production owners...

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: simelar thing that gave emancipation a push

[13:41] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Gemma I agree, we don't want to swing too far, but we need to swing

[13:41] herman Bergson: and there came a reaction against the rresults of the industrial revolution

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here we have swung too far enough to have this president

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and his cronies

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopefully ......

[13:42] herman Bergson: I recently read the news that the owner of Amazon.com  owns 105 billion dollar as private possession

[13:43] herman Bergson: He could buy the whole Netherlands with it :-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: So....do we need money to be ourselves and autonomous?

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think he is joining with the group that is giving away 80% of it

[13:44] herman Bergson: Even if he does, Gemma, he wouldn't notice it.....

[13:44] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): I wonder what Mill would have thought about autonomy if he was faced with the question of what happens when robots replace most of labour. :)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Besides this "GIVING AWAY' idea can be dangerous and socially disrupting too

[13:45] herman Bergson: Robots don't coerce humans....

[13:45] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): yet :)

[13:45] CB Axel: Is it dangerous? I think he should give it to me as a test.

[13:45] herman Bergson: I see no negative effect on freedom there

[13:46] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): ok.. off topic

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: heheh cb

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is the safest solution CB...I'll give him a call:-)

[13:46] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): herman the negative effect may be on 'positive freedom' maybe...

[13:46] CB Axel: He has plenty of my money already. °͜°

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you really WANT IT cb

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ?

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it gives you trouble

[13:47] CB Axel: I'm willing to take on those troubles.

[13:47] CB Axel: For the good of all. lol

[13:47] herman Bergson: The longer we discuss the issue the more complex it becomes :-)

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:48] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): If automation takes away things that people feel passionate about doing (like building stuff), then that might rob us of feeling productive and take away the 'positive freedom' opportunities.

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always

[13:48] herman Bergson: Can we be autonomous and ourselves....?

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we can be ourselves only in our minds

[13:49] CB Axel: Mass produced furniture hasn't taken away wood working from people who are passionate about it.

[13:50] herman Bergson: The same problem as when mass production became the method.....the individual looses contact with his (completed) creative product

[13:50] herman Bergson: True CB

[13:50] herman Bergson: In our minds we probably are a Self, Beertje...yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: But for some time now we are trying to figure out here what that means....WHAT is in our minds?

[13:51] herman Bergson: Still fascinating.....

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i fear it is elusive

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: mh - look at the tons of diy  blogs - is it really gone?

[13:52] herman Bergson: But I guess we better put our minds to rest now after this complicated discussion :-)

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: the point is if someone wants to be creative he / she will be - no matter what

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I need another glass of wine now :)

[13:52] herman Bergson: What   kind of blogs Ciska?

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: cheers Beertje

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i am living now (even twice:-) i decide now, i enjoy it now,... my cigarette and the red wine and all of you ::-) ty herman and class

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: do it yourself blogs

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: who do a lot of carpeting

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: and creative product design

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: cheersBeertje:-)

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Proost, santé

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: cheers bergie ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: Ok....before we all get drunk....

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: cheers:-)all

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation.....^_^

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....:-)

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:54] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Thanks Herman

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman

[[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( going to sleep completely confused now)

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you all soon

[13:54] CB Axel: Beertje, you sound like me every night.

[13:54] herman Bergson: oh dear.....Beertje....!

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles..

[13:55] CB Axel: Welterusten, y'all.

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten ㋡

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten allemaal

[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye CB :-)

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebyes :-) see you soon

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gute Nacht Bergie

699: Autonomy and neo-liberalism...

You may or may not have noticed, but autonomy is one of the hottest issues in present day's political debate.

   

US politics are almost paralyzed by it. What the one party builds up, the other party will breaks it down based on ideas about autonomy.

   

What I am referring to is the dominant role of new-liberalism in contemporary political debates.

   

The same happens in the Netherlands, where euthanasia is permitted in situations of insufferable suffering and imminent death.

   

But there are also people, in particular very old people, who are still healthy, but are really done with life.

    

I have a friend, 96 years old, who often says, that she would bless the day that she won't wake up anymore in the morning.

     

At this moment our politicians are debating the question, whether or not our Law on Euthanasia should also cover such situations:

  

the situation where a physical healthy person states to be done with life and willingly wishes to end it.

   

At this moment helping a person in such a situation is of course regarded as murder and if he acts all on his own we call it suicide.

   

Liberalism dictates autonomy. Does that imply that even death has become our private property? A difficult question.

   

The classic-liberal idea is, that autonomy equals independence and in particular independence from the government. 

    

Liberalism is the political movement that focuses on the freedom of the individual. The Latin word for 'free' is 'liber'.

   

According to liberalism, the government must respect individual autonomy by giving citizens the freedom

   

to shape their own lives instead of determining what is good for them. 

     

The government must therefore as little as possible intervene in the lives of the citizens, and give them as much liberties as possible.

        

The underlying idea is that autonomy is equivalent to the absence of coercion. 

    

The government should not tell us how we should lead our lives, for example by prescribing which religion we should adhere to, 

     

but should create the conditions within which we can shape our lives ourselves.

    

One of the best-known classical liberal philosophers is John Stuart Mill (1806-1873). 

     

According to Mill, we can only say that we are autonomous when we can call ourselves the author of our beliefs and desires, and that our actions express who we are. 

   

If our convictions and desires do not come from ourselves, Mill states, then we have as little character as a steam engine.

    

Next lecture we'll elaborate on these ideas of Mill and on what came next.....

   

Thank you for your attention again... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - hi everyone

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi Ciska

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Ciska

[13:20] herman Bergson: So in short... to be yourself demands personal autonomy

[13:20] CB Axel: Hi, Ciska.

[13:21] herman Bergson: and how far can a government go in interfering with this autonomy?

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): depends on the IQ someone has

[13:22] herman Bergson: In the US you see the extreme consequences of this debate

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some can't take care for themselves

[13:22] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...that is the next question.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: How far should a government go in protecting the weak in its society....

[13:23] Claudette Loire is offline.

[13:23] herman Bergson: and there we play the social-democratic card

[13:24] herman Bergson: in the US they call it the communist card :-)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:24] herman Bergson: We are in search of our Self.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: so the underlying question still is...how can we be ourselves....

[13:25] herman Bergson: and autonomy is part of this Self

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: isn't it a Maslow pyramid "next" step problem somehow?

[13:26] herman Bergson: hmmm..Maslow....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well....you may call that the psychological interpretation...

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:27] herman Bergson: but autonomy of the individual is also a political issue

[13:27] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:28] herman Bergson: our parlement just passed a law which makes every dutchman an organ donor, UNLESS he explicitly tells that he does not agree with that

[13:28] herman Bergson: does that mean that I have lost the autonomy of my own body

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think so

[13:29] CB Axel: No. You still have the choice.

[13:29] herman Bergson: because I am forced to say...NO...I do not want to donate organs....

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: well if you are dead ..... you cannot say yes or no any longer

[13:29] herman Bergson: Shouldn't it be.....This is my body and I will tell you whether or not I wish to be an organ donor?

[13:30] CB Axel: Well, I'm forced to say that I do want them donated and my family can overrule that after I'm no longer able to argue back.

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: because u do no longer exist in the world as we know it.

[13:30] herman Bergson: that is the new situation here too now....

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): telling that you wish a donor was the first step

[13:31] CB Axel: Why should my family make that decision for me? That takes away my autonomy, too.

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): then they came with the other idea

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes and that can be overruled by relatives when you are dead now

[13:31] CB Axel: It doesn't matter, Beertje. My family can know what I want and still overrule my wishes.

[13:31] herman Bergson: We see the same problem in healthcare.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: does autonomy mean that you are free to decide whether or not you like to insure yourself?

[13:32] herman Bergson: or can a government 'force' you to be insured....

[13:32] herman Bergson: aren't you the autonomous owner of your body here?

[13:33] herman Bergson: laws against smoking.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: laws against the use of drugs,

[13:34] CB Axel: My problem with that debate here in the US is that the same people who say I shouldn't be forced to get insurance are the same ones who say I should NOT get birth control or safe, legal abortion.

[13:34] Mikki Louise (mikkilouise) is online.

[13:34] CB Axel: They are not interested in autonomy.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Or only in their way of defining autonomy.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: meaning that religious ideas restrict any autonomy

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): governments need the insurance money

[13:35] CB Axel: They need to keep their religious ideas off my autonomy.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): religion and politics = evil

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not a good combination

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any form

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is a difficult issue here where we have political parties that call them selves Christian Democrates for instance

[13:37] CB Axel: I wonder if a Christian can really be a democrat.

[13:37] herman Bergson: almost all European countries have religious based political parties

[13:37] CB Axel: They don't want people to rule themselves. They want their idea of a god to do that.

[13:37] herman Bergson: good question CB :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed we also have just a sich party

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): kristdemokraterna (the christ democrats)

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...:-)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): don't know much about their idieas in general though, not to interested, It never gets perfect in any case no matter which party gets to rule

[13:39] herman Bergson: So we may conclude that absolute individual autonomy is a very questionable concept in the world we live in...

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one party i really don't like but are sitting at the moment with some other parties are called SD (Sweden democrats) they just think we should throw every refugee out of Sweden and they have their original background in the racist/fascist grounds

[13:40] herman Bergson: How far can you go in claiming your individual autonomy.....so you can be yourself?

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: its an unrealistic concept as long as people are not really able to grasp it as a "mass"

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and no other party wants anything to do with them

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if we don't fit in we are called 'paradise birds"

[13:41] CB Axel: I don't think complete autonomy is practical where groups of people live together.

[13:41] CB Axel: There must be some laws.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i don't have all details

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think politic is most a big mess nowadays

[13:41] herman Bergson: Indeed CB.....

[13:41] herman Bergson: We have such parties here to Bejiita :-))

[13:42] herman Bergson: Like in Germany and France, Hungary and Poland...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a huge sandbox where everyone sit and throw sand at each other and fight and argue instead of doing a responsible leadership work

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there always will be someone who will tell us what we have to do

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you could make a reality show out of it

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: well the responsible leadership work needs goals

[13:42] herman Bergson: We'll look into this aspect you mention CB, in coming lectures

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): reality

[13:43] herman Bergson: As you see...trying to be yourself or even find your true Self brings us right in the middle of politics :-))

[13:44] Claudette Loire is online.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well....guess we'll address these issues in coming lectures :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any case self is more complex then it sounds

[13:44] CB Axel: That should be interesting. °͜°

[13:44] herman Bergson: it is indeed Bejiita :-))

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes ㋡

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats whats so interesting

[13:45] herman Bergson: thank you, Bejiita....:-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: I guess this is a nice moment to dismiss class...:-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki all, cu next time

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you for participating again in a troll free environment :-)

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:46] CB Axel: I'll see you all on Thursday. °͜°

[13:46] herman Bergson: I'll be there CB :-)

698: Who owns your body.....?

A 17 years old boy suffers of leukemia and needs a blood transfusion. If he does not get it, he'll die within a week.

   

But the boy decides to refuse the transfusion, because his religious believes forbid such a kind of medical action on the body.

    

The doctors, however, believe, that the boy does not know what he really wants, 

   

because he is seriously influenced by his parents and their religious community. 

   

Because the boy is a minor, the question is: if the blood transfusion is administered under duress, does this conflict with the boy's autonomy or not?

   

If you want to preserve the authenticity of your Self, at least you may begin by claiming personal, bodily autonomy.

    

When a group wants to govern itself or a person wants to make independent decisions, they are looking for autonomy. 

   

Autonomy comes from the Greek roots auto meaning "self" and nomos meaning "custom" or "law." 

  

This reflects the political sense of the word: a group's right to self-government or self-rule.        

    

When a person seeks autonomy, he or she would like to be able to make decisions independently from an authority figure. 

   

This autonomy issue happens to be in the spotlights in the Netherlands at the moment.. The parliament is is about to vote about a new law on donating organs.

  

The focus of the debate is about the question: can the government say "everyone is organ donor by law 

   

UNLESS you explicitly have stated, that you never wish to donate organs after your death".

    

An autonomous a person wants to make independent decisions. But what does that mean?

    

Is administering under duress a violation of the autonomy of the boy, because it ignores his personal wishes?

  

Or is it, on the contrary, a token of respect for his autonomy, because he is too much influenced regarding his choice by his parents and church?

    

Who owns my body? Me for 100% or is there someone else, who can claim it to some extend? 

   

Our focus will be the relation between personal autonomy and the government. To what extend should the government protect personal autonomy?

   

Or should the government actively interfere and influence or even restrict our autonomy? 

   

Just think about all campaigns and laws against smoking, or the next target....people with obesity?

   

Am I the one and only owner of my body and absolutely independent regarding decisions I make about how I want to use it?

    

We'll not answer this question here with a simple yes or no, for as you all know, this is a real philosophical and also ethical matter.

    

Therefor let's take our time and spend some more lectures on this subject.

   

Thank you for your attention again...^_^

   

    

The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: I am sorry our class was disrupted somewhat....

[13:27] CB Axel: Well, here in the US, the boy's wishes are irrelevant, since he's only 17. In one more year he'd have more rights.

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: thank you - no worries

[13:27] herman Bergson: second time in ten years though :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): use to be calm indeed here

[13:27] CB Axel: That's a pretty good record!

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:27] herman Bergson: You mean his religious believes would be ignored CB?

[13:28] CB Axel: No. His parents would make the decision.

[13:28] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: thats here too

[13:29] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): No one is prohibited to smoke, they are only discouraged. The government in this case should act. And that would save the religious principles too, because he didn't not choose to sin. someone else did take the sinful decision, so to speak

[13:29] CB Axel: I would like to think that his parents would ask him what he wants.

[13:30] CB Axel: Then his parents would have to decide whether to be good parents or good what-ever-their-religion is person.

[13:30] herman Bergson: That would be rather problematic CB

[13:30] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): For the parents he is risking eternal life to safe mortal life

[13:31] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): The same principles animated the Saint Inquisition

[13:31] CB Axel: That's right, John.

[13:31] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): they used to destroy bodies in order to save souls

[13:31] herman Bergson: It is only about prolonging life...his disease is lethal eventually

[13:32] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): in their fanaticism they were sure to be saving people's ethernal life by sacrificing the mortal human body

[13:33] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): In my opinion the State should surely intervene

[13:33] CB Axel: Yes, but in the case of the inquisition, the person wasn't given a choice.

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: if things are not curable yet - no

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: people here can decide when they have an illness that will terminate life

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: if they go on with treatments to get another month out of it

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: or not

[13:34] CB Axel: Well, there's a difference between treatment used to prolong life and treatment used to make the remainder of life bearable.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes...you can refuse medical care here too

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: and thats important

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: otherwise the state will push u to accept treatment

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: which may hold you in hospital 

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: while you could have some more days out there

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: even when the time is shorter

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: and enjoy  things

[13:35] CB Axel: I just went to a meeting last week to discuss physician assisted suicide for the terminally ill.

[13:35] herman Bergson: Important issue Ciska

[13:36] CB Axel: That's only legal in a handful of states.

[13:36] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands it is allowed

[13:36] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the discussion here is not in voice

[13:36] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): can you write, please?

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: I'm strictly against the state possessing my body.

[13:36] CB Axel: Yes. The Netherlands was mentioned at the meeting. °͜°

[13:37] herman Bergson: It is a very carefully managed process....

[13:37] herman Bergson: with lots of controls and checks

[13:37] herman Bergson: When I was on Schiermonnikoog last week it happened there....

[13:38] herman Bergson: A woman, 102 years old.....

[13:38] herman Bergson: She was eventually put to sleep.....she slept for 8 days on medication before the heart stopped

[13:38] herman Bergson: This is what she wished...

[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: wow good!

[13:39] CB Axel: The law we're looking at in our state would require the medication to be self-administered.

[13:39] herman Bergson: She was almost deaf and blind

[13:40] herman Bergson: Here it was the physician who did administer the medication

[13:40] CB Axel: A doctor would provide the medication, but the patient would have to be able to take it on his/her own.

[13:40] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.

[13:40] herman Bergson: And what when the patient is totally paralyzed CB?

[13:40] herman Bergson: only able to speak?

[13:41] CB Axel: And if the doctor wouldn't be forced to provide the drug  if religion prohibited it.

[13:41] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): He would be attached to a machine and have to push a botton

[13:41] CB Axel: I'm not sure if that would be allowed, John.

[13:41] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder

[13:42] CB Axel: I'd have to look at the law in Oregon which is the law ours would be based on.

[13:42] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I mean in some parts of Europe

[13:42] herman Bergson: Here it isn't allowed if a relative would help the patient.....that would be a crime

[13:42] CB Axel: Murder is murder, but euthanasia is relief, imo. °͜°

[13:42] Ducky (taurdagfarason): some people lack compassion

[13:42] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): They would have to do it themselves by simply pushing a botton

[13:42] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder, no matter how you call it, murder is murder

[13:43] CB Axel: But under the law we're considering, this would not be euthanasia. It would be considered suicide.

[13:43] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): What is it like in Putinland, Ducky?

[13:43] herman Bergson: I understand Ducky....it is like Ducky is Ducky.....a tautology

[13:43] herman Bergson: The question is...is self chosen death murder here

[13:43] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): tell us about the law in your country, pls

[13:44] Ducky (taurdagfarason): if you look on the surface and ignore the fact that labeling murder by different names doesn't make it less of a murder

[13:44] Ducky (taurdagfarason): In my country, Murder is illegal

[13:44] herman Bergson: This law says that when there is evidence of unbearable suffering euthanasia is allowed

[13:44] CB Axel: Then I hope you never get a painful, debilitating condition that you have to live with for months if not years.

[13:45] CB Axel: And our law would not be murder.

[13:45] CB Axel: It would be suicide.

[13:45] herman Bergson: I agree CB...hope it wont happen to Ducky

[13:45] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder

[13:45] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and suicide is suicide Ducky?

[13:45] Ducky (taurdagfarason): some people have no respect for human life

[13:45] CB Axel: So you're saying that suicide is murder?

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes Ducky...red is red and green is green

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very complex this indeed

[13:46] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): this could be seen as suicide, not murder

[13:46] ellenilli (ellenilli.lavendel) is online.

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is a matter of definition CB....

[13:46] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): assisted suicide they call it

[13:46] CB Axel: It's my body. Why should you say what I do with it?

[13:46] Ducky (taurdagfarason): some people have no compassion for others nor human life

[13:46] herman Bergson: assisted suicide is not allowed in the Netherlands

[13:46] CB Axel: Keeping a suffering person alive for no reason is not compassionate.

[13:47] herman Bergson: that is considered to be a crime

[13:47] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder, no matter what you call it

[13:47] Ducky (taurdagfarason): Why do people with lax morals want to justify murder

[13:47] herman Bergson: But if it is clear that death is the only next stop and endless suffering the road to it, it is allowed to shorten that road for the patient

[13:47] Ducky (taurdagfarason): next thing you'll be telling me that abortion is not a murder

[13:48] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): out of topic

[13:48] CB Axel: Because to me allowing a terminally ill person to check out early is more moral than forcing them to suffer.

[13:48] CB Axel: And abortion is not murder since life begins at birth.

[13:48] herman Bergson: I agree CB

[13:48] Ducky (taurdagfarason): actually, quite on topic, for it underlines the amorality of people who justify murder of unborn babies

[13:49] CB Axel: And you should have no say in how I chose to live my life or to end it.

[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): changing topics?

[13:49] CB Axel: Who made you the ruler of my body?

[13:49] Ducky (taurdagfarason): sure, the baby is alive in the belly, yet it's fine to cut it to bits and pump it out

[13:49] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder, call things by their names

[13:49] Ducky (taurdagfarason): who made people the master of life of the unborn babe?

[13:49] CB Axel: It's not alive until it can live on its own. Otherwise, it's a parasite.

[13:50] Alterglobalization: never mind people

[13:50] Alterglobalization: he is a dull

[13:50] Ducky (taurdagfarason): yet humans are not parasites biologically, your desire to justify murder is flaed

[13:50] herman Bergson: We are discussing autonomy of the individual here....not abortion and its ethical implications

[13:50] Alterglobalization: you can give any good reasons of the world

[13:50] Ducky (taurdagfarason): autonomy of the baby is neglected when it's murdered

[13:50] herman Bergson: it is not the topic of today...

[13:50] Alterglobalization: he will stay on his own ideas

[13:50] Alterglobalization: he is a troll

[13:50] Alterglobalization: trolling

[13:50] CB Axel: OK. I'll leave abortion aside.

[13:51] Ducky (taurdagfarason): nice try to avoid deeper implications of your murderous reasoning, murder apologist

[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): hahah

[13:51] herman Bergson: Ok...this is a whole new happening in my class...:-)

[13:51] CB Axel: I still think an adult, living person should have the right to live or die according to their own desires.

[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): ok, but imagine you were suffering very hard, Ducky and had very short to live

[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): imagine that

[13:52] ellenilli (ellenilli.lavendel) is offline.

[13:52] Alterglobalization: i think women are not obliged to get pregnant if they don't want to

[13:52] herman Bergson: we got in ONE class two people who like to disrupt the conversation :-)

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its YOUR will i guess

[13:52] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): wouldn't you like me to kill you?

[13:52] Ducky (taurdagfarason): why are you fine with murder of babies?

[13:52] Alterglobalization: women should have right on their body and sexuality and decide for their body

[13:52] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): You would end suffering. I'd be pleased to help you Ducky

[13:52] herman Bergson: Never happened in ten years :-)))

[13:52] Alterglobalization: without woman baby can't live so it's up to woman's decision to give birth or not

[13:52] theo Velde is online.

[13:52] herman Bergson: Very interesting.....guess it is full moon tonight :-)

[13:53] Ducky (taurdagfarason): why do you support murder of the old and the feeble that will lead of casting aside of the elderly and the feeble and the retarded into the realm of the non-existence therough the gateway of murder?

[13:53] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): No, ducky. Try to understand. The suffering, Ducky, the suffering

[13:53] Alterglobalization: if a woman gives birth without wanting it, the baby risks to be the most sad baby of the world not getting love

[13:53] herman Bergson: CLASS DISMISSED..... \o/

[13:53] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): you pretend you don't understand.

[13:53] Ducky (taurdagfarason): of course, you would attempt to insult me, murder apologist, for the truth hurts you deeply

[13:53] Alterglobalization: he can't understand

[13:53] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): hahah

[13:53] Ducky (taurdagfarason): woman consents when having sex

[13:53] Alterglobalization: he has no brain

[13:53] CB Axel: Anyway, even though I'm an atheist, I can respect another person's religion. If they feel that medical care is against their beliefs, I would not force it on them.

[13:54] herman Bergson: Feel free to continue your discussion though :-)

[13:54] Alterglobalization: he is a machine

[13:54] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder

[13:54] Alterglobalization: russian robot

[13:54] Alterglobalization: from dictatorship

[13:54] Ducky (taurdagfarason): Alter, you are ideologically biased against life

[13:54] herman Bergson: REDRUM....!

[13:54] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): murder is murder and stupid is stupid

[13:54] Alterglobalization: he loves to lick putin's asshole

[13:54] herman Bergson: Do you remember....The Shining....REDRUM

[13:54] Alterglobalization: getting all the shit of Putin in his mouth

[13:54] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): ok, what about killing Islamists Ducky?

[13:54] herman Bergson: REDRUM = MURDER :-))

[13:54] Ducky (taurdagfarason): you get angry, because you know that your murder apologetics are ethically vile

[13:54] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Can we kill islamists?

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no bye for now, this is turning into chaos it seems

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

[13:55] Alterglobalization: sure it's turning into chaos

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i will fry a duck tomorrow :-) a murdered one. from the supermarket

[13:55] Alterglobalization: because ducky is a troll

[13:55] CB Axel: If Ducky could have his life ruined and possibly endangered by pregnancy, he might have a different opinion.

[13:55] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Bye part

[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): Alter, you are the one that insulted me when I came in, talking politely to you and all here.

[13:55] Alterglobalization: it's useless to feed the troll

[13:55] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Duck Murder is much murder

[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): you behave as a troll yet accuse me of trolling

[13:55] herman Bergson: SMILES

[13:55] Alterglobalization: haha

[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): all because I underlined how you are morally vacuous and full of shit

[13:55] CB Axel: I can respect your beliefs, Ducky, if you would respect mine.

[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): no, Alter

[13:56] Alterglobalization: this one is good

[13:56] herman Bergson: This is really a new experience in my class :-)

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: duck in orange sauce bergie?

[13:56] herman Bergson: A sitting Duck :-)

[13:56] CB Axel: And if I want to end my life, what business is it of yours?

[13:56] Ducky (taurdagfarason): People without a moral base will spin any kind of nonsense to justify murder

[13:56] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I respect stupid views as if they were my own

[13:56] herman Bergson: Quite amusing....for class is already dismissed :-)

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: on

[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes Ciska:-) and potato dumplings

[13:57] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): maybe your classes lack verve, Bergman

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: yummy bergie ㋡

[13:57] CB Axel: Oh, well. Ducky will never change his mind, so I give up.

[13:57] CB Axel: Cute, Ciska.

[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman:-) and class

[13:57] herman Bergson: I don't like meaningless discussions based on tautologies John

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:58] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder

[13:58] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Thank you all for the conversation, thanks Herman

[13:58] CB Axel: Thanks, Ciska!