702: Republicans and Democrats...

Two issues caused some debate in the Netherlands and my newspaper spent an article on them

   

in which two philosophers discuss exactly what we are discussing here now too. Even Isaiah Berlin and his article of 1958 was mentioned.

   

The two issues are these: one is the fact that a judge has declared that special rooms for smokers in bars and restaurants are forbidden

  

and two is, that our parlement passed a law which makes every citizen an organ donor unless he actively declares that he doesn't want to be one.

    

In the article two philosophers discuss the question to what extend should we allow the State to interfere with our personal freedom?

   

I ended my previous lecture with the promise to elaborate on the dichotomy: Night-watchman State versus Welfare State and how to be yourself.

   

This is one of the dominating issues in American politics today, where Republicans and Democrats approach the issue with cheerful dogmatism.

    

In libertarian political philosophy, a night-watchman state is a model of a state whose only functions are 

    

to provide its citizens with the military, the police and courts, thus protecting them from aggression, theft, breach of contract and fraud and enforcing property laws.

   

Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association, and individual judgment.

   

The welfare state is a concept of government in which the state plays a key role in the protection and promotion of the social and economic well-being of its citizens. 

   

It is based on the principles of equality of opportunity, equitable distribution of wealth, and public responsibility for those unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life. 

   

As you see an interesting difference of opinion, which is mainly based on how you think about man and his capabilities.

   

The libertarian view is based on two assumptions.  The first one is, that each individual himself knows best what he wants.

   

And the second assumption is, that each individual is actually capable to act rightly, based on his choices and preferences.

    

Are these assumptions realistic and a sound basis for political choices?

   

There are a number of reasons  to doubt this. In previous lectures I already mentioned the fact, that the belief, 

   

that you can be absolutely autonomous cannot be uphold. Neither the belief that we ourselves by definition know best what is good for us.

    

Besides, sometimes this idea of maximum freedom of the individual is overrated and one tends to forget that we also cherish other values like welfare, health and safety.

   

When you put welfare, health and safety first and freedom of choice last, it is a small step to argue,

   

that based on these priority of values no one should have a right to use violence except the State to protect its citizens.

    

That is why in almost all countries of the world it is forbidden to possess firearms as a private person.

   

Just look at the consequences when you do not monopolize the right to use violence as a State. Seems you have to arm even teachers then.

    

For the same reason we have compulsory education.

    

That the State should allow us absolute freedom of choice is theoretically perhaps a nice idea, but what is forgotten here is,

   

that this freedom is unrealistic, because there is for instance a huge difference in possible choices  

   

depending on whether you are born rich or poor, intelligent and educated or less gifted, physically handicapped or healthy.

    

These considerations should be on the agenda, when you ask yourself how to be autonomous and a citizen of a State.

    

Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have  any questions or remarks...feel free the floor is yours :-)

[13:19] Ciska Riverstone: thank you ㋡

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it would be nice if we could have  a mixture of the two

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i certainly don't choose the libertarian alone

[13:20] herman Bergson: That is what we have here in the Netherlands :-)

[13:20] herman Bergson: I think the libertarian point of view is just unrealistic

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some would love to install it here completely

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why there is such division

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some control is necessary, for example this about education and guns

[13:21] herman Bergson: The Tea PArty would like to do that too, I think ib the US

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its what is controlled and not that have to be selected carefully

[13:22] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:22] herman Bergson: So, what is you ropinion on this Ducky, if I may ask?

[13:23] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i'm thinking about how to say it

[13:23] herman Bergson: feel free....

[13:23] ThalesMiletus: Sorry I came in late

[13:23] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you brought up the two issues then went into more abstract ideas

[13:23] herman Bergson: You're always welcome Thales

[13:24] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): addressing the issues, a private room of idiots should be allowed without government interference, which respects the autonomy of the idiots who ignore the facts on the dangers of smoke

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:24] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): idiots, should be allowed to be idiots

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some cant help it though

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need to be saved from themselves

[13:25] ThalesMiletus: but there is no such thing as a "private room" in real life.. that's the problem

[13:25] herman Bergson: It is not nice to disqualify other fellow humans as idiots....sound very biased

[13:25] herman Bergson: respectless regarding the freedom of choice of others

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no need to call those people idiots

[13:26] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): The facts are out there that smoking is cancerous amongst other things, and it's not the governments business to play mommy and daddy at the cost of undermining individuals idiocy

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes yes...we all know that....

[13:26] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you're right beertje

[13:26] herman Bergson: but that doesnt disqualify a smoker as an idiot, I would say

[13:26] ThalesMiletus: but smoking has effects beyond just those individuals

[13:26] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): No, of course not

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think he means people like your esteemed guy that wants no immigration at all

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forgot his name

[13:27] ThalesMiletus: of course, you can do extreme sports all you want

[13:27] ThalesMiletus: not much side effect there to others

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so to the right he is almost falling over

[13:27] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): My point simply is, we should be allowed to be idiots

[13:27] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Whatever idiot means, we should be allowed

[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree :-)

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): freedom of thought

[13:27] ThalesMiletus: I don't :)

[13:27] herman Bergson: I even volunteer for it :-)

[13:27] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): We sometimes know what's bad for us and still do it

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes

[13:28] herman Bergson: Even driving a car is bad for us....just note how many people are killed in traffic accidents

[13:28] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It's not the states business to monitor our knowingly idiocy behavior when we know it's sometimes stupid what we're doing

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): smoking is hard to quit too, however its difficult for me to grasp as cigarette smoke is one of the most awful smells i know

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however it can  cause harm to others

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gives me nausea

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like driving drunk

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Gemma...

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and hitting a another innocent car

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn causing death

[13:29] herman Bergson: So the State should forbid driving cars?

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who should stop the person from doing that?

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or should anyone

[13:30] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It's one thing to cause secondary harm with smoking around those who don't accept it, another to have people go into a private room knowing the consequences.

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true

[13:30] herman Bergson: YEs...but even that is forbidden now here :-)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or staying in the room using opioids to death

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what to think about those people who have to clean those cigarette rooms?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Beertje :-)

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just blow it up beertje

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or just don't clean them, let themselves do it as they please

[13:31] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): They have air cleaners that remove all that smoke

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i go for blowing it up

[13:31] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Turn it on when everyone leaves, and viola

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the smoke sticks on everything

[13:32] herman Bergson: But the basic idea here is....to what extend may a government restrict individual freedom

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): walls furniture ect leaving everything permanently yellow and stinky

[13:32] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I can address the second issue too

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes there are now new lights that will clean without anyone in the place .. they use it in some hospitals

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have been on visit many times to such apartments, even when they have not smoked in a very long time the apartment/house still reeks with smoke

[13:33] herman Bergson: which second issue you mean Ducky?

[13:33] herman Bergson: The donor issue?

[13:33] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): That one

[13:34] herman Bergson: ok

[13:35] herman Bergson: You are a donor from the moment you are born unless you say NO

[13:35] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It should be an affirmative decision

[13:35] herman Bergson: That is the rule in several  European countries...for instance in Spain

[13:35] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): They tried something like that before and it was rejected for undermining autonomy

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes...understandable

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is the whole point....

[13:36] herman Bergson: what prevails...?

[13:36] herman Bergson: individual  autonomy or general welfare first?

[13:36] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): In the donor case, autonomy

[13:36] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It's your body

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: you can say no u still have it

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes...that was a valid argument indeed....

[13:37] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): You can also say yes too

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:37] herman Bergson: therefor you are allowed to say NO

[13:37] ThalesMiletus: I would be fine with having the default be that you are a donor unless you opt out (or your parents/guardians do so on your behalf)

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well we basically have 3 states

[13:37] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): The yes one respects our autonomy more

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: no

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and indifferent

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and thats what now becomes more and more clear

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is the point Thales....

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: our topic here is consciousness

[13:38] herman Bergson: What are the Default settings of being a citizen of State ....

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: so is it possible to be conscious and indifferent at the same time?

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are trying the same thing here with retirement savings and have found that if the company does not offer it but puts one in it unless they opt out there is  a huge difference in the number who do save.... i think that it would work that way too for bodies ... sounds silly but the idea is there

[13:39] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that Ciska?

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they can opt out

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but don't

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: I mean that we are in a new age now - full of information. can we as individuals just say: o I have information to make up my mind about something but I feel indifferent about it

[13:39] herman Bergson: No...Gemma that point was mentioned in the article too....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: or can we be asked by the society to either make up our  minds

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are so many people waiting for body parts to go on living and not enough parts to go around

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: or let the government decide that for us?

[13:40] herman Bergson: When the default setting is SAVING FOR RETIREMENT most people just do....don't opt out...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: its a new age

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a new age

[13:40] herman Bergson: when not....you get lots of problems after retirement

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lives can be saved and most people don't even think about it

[13:41] ThalesMiletus: Gemma I agree...I think a lot of the time we just are either too lazy or too busy to figure out what to do and it makes it easier if the 'default' is something that the evidence shows is in our best interest. As long as we still have the autonomy to opt out.

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: we cannot hide any longer in our "I did not know" caves

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes....you do not think about it...

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who teaches everyone to think of these things

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: thats just over guys

[13:41] ThalesMiletus: Ciska no it's not at all

[13:42] herman Bergson: Well I'll be honest.....

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we must get something to prove who we are and where we live

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: I am a registered donor myself.....

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for years.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: but the idea that when I am dead they come and harvest the valuable remains...feels a bit silly :-))

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is on my driver license

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that will be fine with me

[13:43] herman Bergson: but you have to be reasonable....

[13:43] herman Bergson: what use are they to you when you are dead?

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i know those who strongly object

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: my problem with donor-ship is that someone makes money of it and I cannot stop him or her from it - thats something which will of course stop by itself when most people donate

[13:44] herman Bergson: no no...no money making here

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: the whole dealing loses value

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: well herman not officially

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think the only money is by transferring from one place to another

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: but in-officially it still happens

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i does cost

[13:44] CB Axel: I am, too, but after I die, my family can override my wishes. For me would not be a case of the government making a decision for me. It would be the government making the choice for me, allowing me while I'm alive to opt out of that choice, and not allowing anyone else to change that.

[13:44] herman Bergson: it costs...yes...of course...

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha so the family can override??

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes....can be done here too

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, they can Gemma

[13:45] herman Bergson: even when one is donor

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): worse to me than the government doing it!!!!!!!!

[13:46] ThalesMiletus: Interesting.. what is the thinking behind that?

[13:46] herman Bergson: a bit silly but it is the law now

[13:46] ThalesMiletus: why allow the family to override?

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the nerve of my family of going against my wishes

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will haunt them forever

[13:46] herman Bergson: Good question Thales..but I think I can answer it....

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some people who are left behind get too much emotions

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds crazy for sure

[13:46] herman Bergson: Just imagine this situation....

[13:47] herman Bergson: Person A was member of some church and then dropped out and dies as a donor....

[13:47] CB Axel: The family can override because the dead person has no say. The family can just say, "well, he/she changed her mind after putting that on the license."

[13:47] herman Bergson: His family however is still member of that church that forbids donating organs...

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i am gone and really wont care anymore i guess anyway

[13:48] herman Bergson: The family has to arrange the funeral etc....so  they forbid donating organs

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not going to worry about it

[13:48] CB Axel: Good point, Gemma. °͜°

[13:48] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): wow, i have to say this is the best group so far

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it always was:)

[13:48] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you really get into it

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are all used to each  other after years

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:48] ThalesMiletus: Herman that seems strange.

[13:48] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): im so used to superficial place

[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you Ducky :-)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: This is the Philosophy class for more than ten years already Ducky :-)

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: just cant seem to graduate

[13:49] herman Bergson: What is strange Thales???

[13:50] CB Axel: LOL, Gemma

[13:50] herman Bergson: I know Gemma :-))

[13:50] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you have a new fan

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bu toyu made it to assistent professor already:-)

[13:50] ThalesMiletus: Herman the justification for the scenario you just gave. Just because they have to arrange the funeral they are allowed to override the wishes of the dead person to donate? Ridiculous.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh good we need some new voices

[13:50] herman Bergson: No no....

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: the point with allowing family to override is that the person ( the consciousness ;) ) which took the decision is gone - the remains are "owned" by the ones who inherit somehow on some strange tehnical level

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it does happen

[13:51] herman Bergson: It is a matter of grieve.....

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even happens when someone is directed to let a person die not on support

[13:51] CB Axel: Thales, yes they can. They can also override a DNR.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn they wont!!!!!!!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that happens a lot

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma

[13:52] ThalesMiletus: CB Axel I bet that's going to start changing soon

[13:52] herman Bergson: The law here was only accepted because it was stated that when the grieving relatives could not stand the idea of "desecration" of the body....they should have the right to overrule the wish of the deseased

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I had a really strong talk with my nephew who is my person at Christmas time

[13:52] ThalesMiletus: still nonsense

[13:53] herman Bergson: I agree...even respectless...

[13:53] herman Bergson: But we have christian orthodox political parties here

[13:53] CB Axel: My family knows my feelings on organ donation. I don't know if they know what I think of allowing me to die. I don't have a legal DNR.

[13:53] ThalesMiletus: My ghost would be furious as hell, if I believed in ghosts :)

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will haunt

[13:53] CB Axel: Same here, Thales.

[13:54] herman Bergson: You should Thales...I would come back myself! :-))

[13:54] herman Bergson: Just read a few Stephen King novels and you know it can be done :-))

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah my favorite Stephen King :)

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well, my friends....I guess we did it again today :-))

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:55] CB Axel: I don't believe in the Gospels in the Bible. There's no way I'm going to believe in the Gospel According to Stephen King. LOL

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa Stephen King have made lot of good ones

[13:55] herman Bergson: So thank you all again for your participation....:-)

[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some i like others no

[13:55] CB Axel: And everyone.

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all next time

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you next week

[13:56] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I understand why the state would want to default for organ donations, it seems people would want to default that way too, however. does the state have solid data that the general population would want to default to organ donations iI wonder.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Ok Gemma :-))

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class :-)

[13:56] CB Axel: I think the only Stephen King I've read all the way through is The Green Mile. I liked that very much, but I don't read much fiction.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bergie

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i love that one!!!!!

[13:56] Guestboook van tipjar stand: bergfrau Apfelbaum donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the movie!!!!!

[13:57] herman Bergson: I'd say NO, Ducky....

[13:57] CB Axel: The movie was awesome. Fantastic cast.

[13:57] herman Bergson: there are nodata at all, I think....

[13:57] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): That's why it might be undermining autonomy

[13:57] herman Bergson: Make a note of it...The Green Mile..:-)

[13:57] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Good movie

[13:57] CB Axel: There probably is no data, and the data we would get from polls would be slanted according to the way the question was asked.

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): well.I have to go..have a good night

[13:58] herman Bergson: I wouldnt conclude that Ducky....

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gute Nacht

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten

[13:58] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I fear you're right axel

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje

[13:58] herman Bergson: The fact is that people do not think about it at all.....

[13:58] CB Axel: I'm CB. Axel is my surname. °͜°

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: gute nacht all :-) see you next week

[13:58] herman Bergson: so the question is...when not...then what to do?

[13:58] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): CB, got it

[13:58] herman Bergson: Default donor...or default not donor?

[13:59] CB Axel: Anyway, welterusten, y'all. See you on Tuesday.

[13:59] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): You brought up what's best for us using Isaiah Berlin

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: cu cb

[13:59] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): that

[13:59] herman Bergson: In real it proves that Default donor works best for everyone...

[13:59] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): that's a whole discussion in itself

[13:59] herman Bergson: yes yes....the positive freedom...

[14:00] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you're probably right about default donors

[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-) see you soon

[14:00] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): however, it's sometimes best to let the culture adjust to the idea first

[14:00] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): europeans are way ahead of Americans in these matters i suspect

[14:01] herman Bergson: Bye Thales :-)

[14:01] ThalesMiletus: Thanks for the talk Herman

[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): oh, everyone abandoned ship

[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): well, adios

[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): bye

[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I can talk about this all day

[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): tc

[14:01] herman Bergson: No no....I dismissed the class...that is how we end our discussions here

[14:01] herman Bergson: Because you can discuss issues for hours of course

[14:02] herman Bergson: well you say it yourself :-))

[14:02] herman Bergson: But I do not have all day :-))

[14:02] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It was a good discussion

[14:02] herman Bergson: thank you....

[14:02] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): best one so far

[14:02] herman Bergson: it is a nice group too

[14:03] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): yeah, you guys really seem to care

[14:03] herman Bergson: Do you know that Gemma has attended all my lectures since 2007!?

[14:03] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): dedication

[14:03] herman Bergson: yes we care indeed

[14:03] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): is there some ranking going on

[14:03] herman Bergson: ranking?

[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): like is there some degree or something

[14:04] herman Bergson: lol no...

[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i heard some say about having graduated

[14:04] herman Bergson: Gemma loves to jole about the fact that she cant graduate here :-)

[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): ahh, ok

[14:04] herman Bergson: She is complaining about that for years :-)))

[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): well, i can say this is my favorite place so far

[14:05] herman Bergson: well...you are most welcome...

[14:05] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): wish i had know about this before

[14:05] herman Bergson: yes...you could have been here for ten years already :-)

[14:05] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i usually get banned from places because i have no patieence for people or groups that don't think deep about the issues or topic

[14:06] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): seems i found the right place

[14:06] herman Bergson: I only ban morons :-)

[14:06] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): good idea

[14:06] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): it was fun and nice to finally find a good place, see you next discussion

[14:06] herman Bergson: You wont believe it...but three weeks ago I had even two at the same time here ....never happened in all the years

[14:07] herman Bergson: Actually I like them because they are fun but irritating :-))

[14:07] herman Bergson: but I banned them both

[14:07] herman Bergson: one even threatened me to get to me in RL...he was Dutch too, youu see

[14:07] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Some people think i'm a guy named swaiard

[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): or some other duck named person,

[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i was banned for being mistaken in identity a few times

[14:08] herman Bergson: Well I cnat read your name so I call you what I can read :-)

[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i may have to come in with new identity

[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): ok, well good chatting with you

[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): tc

[14:08] herman Bergson: My pleasure...

701: A Clash of Cultures...

We put all our efforts in getting hold on our Self in this project. We want to know what it means to be an individual, a Self, a unique and authentic being.

   

I have come to one observation at least. What we call our Self is not a stable and unchanging state of being, but an evolving process through time.

    

A second observation is, that, though we are convinced that this or that is really part of my true Self, someone else could say to me:

   

"Herman, please, stop this.....you are not yourself. That is not you....take a break." And that's what friends are for :-)

   

The quintessence in the whole story is individualism: the claim that every human organism is a unique individual person. 

       

However, though we may be individuals, we all live together on this planet. And that is where it all starts: how can we protect our authenticity and uniqueness in the crowd?

    

The interesting thing here is, that this individualism and being an authentic Self is quite theoretical, because homo sapiens is just a social animal and lives in groups.

    

Yet we have this longing for being an authentic individual. Thence the question: how can we organize this?

   

The most fascinating to observe today is that a political world power, the United States in this case, has become an interesting example of attempts to answer this question

   

In the previous lecture we got acquainted with the distinction between negative and positive freedom.

   

This dichotomy, used by Isaiah Berlin in 1958, was already described by Erich Fromm, the Frankfurt-born psychoanalyst, in 1941 in his book "Escape from Freedom".

   

Fromm distinguishes between 'freedom from' (negative freedom) and 'freedom to' (positive freedom). 

     

The former refers to emancipation from restrictions such as social conventions placed on individuals by other people or institutions. 

    

This is the kind of freedom typified by the existentialism of Sartre, and has often been fought for historically, 

    

but according to Fromm, on its own it can be a destructive force unless accompanied by a creative element, 

     

'freedom to' the use of freedom to employ spontaneously the total integrated personality in creative acts.

     

Fromm examines democracy and freedom. Modern democracy and the industrialised nation are models he praises, 

     

but it is stressed, that the kind of external freedom provided by this kind of society can never be utilised to the full without an equivalent inner freedom. 

      

Fromm suggests that though we are free from totalitarian influence of any sorts in this kind of society, we are still dominated by the advice of experts and the influence of advertising. 

     

The way to become free as an individual is to be spontaneous in our self-expression and in the way we behave. 

     

This is crystallised in his existential statement "there is only one meaning of life: the act of living it". Fromm counters suggestions that this might lead to social chaos 

      

by claiming that being truly in touch with our humanity is to be truly in touch with the needs of those with whom we share the world.

     

In politics this "truly in touch with the needs of those with whom we share the world" translates into the dichotomy: Night-watchman State versus Wellfare State.

    

In the US it translates into Republicans versus Democrates....but from my perspective, there it has become a Clash of Cultures

     

Next lecture we'll elaborate on this dichotomy: Night-watchman State versus Welfare State and how to be yourself.

    

Thank you for your attention again...^_^

    

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Take your time to think  this over :-)

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well what can I say, freedom is important

[13:24] herman Bergson: but it is fredom FROM and/or freedom to....

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: or outer versus inner one

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] herman Bergson: freedom from any coercion....that is what John Stuart MIll put forward as liberal freedom

[13:25] CB Axel: Are we "dominated by the advice of experts"? I like hearing what experts have to say. It's better than listening to uninformed jerks on Facebook.

[13:26] herman Bergson: I agree CB...

[13:26] CB Axel: Also, my freedom from fear is being affected by other people's freedom to carry guns.

[13:27] herman Bergson: BEsides Faceboook can never really be a source of reliable information

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:27] CB Axel: And the people who want to carry guns see that as a way to have their own freedom from fear.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): both of those

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i like to listen experts and then I can deside by myself what to do

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everyone shoots everyone = everyone dead, noone to have any freedon anymore

[13:27] herman Bergson: That CB, is a typical American problem....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): insane

[13:28] CB Axel: Facebook can be a source of reliable information, but that information, like that of any source, needs to be verified.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also true

[13:28] herman Bergson: Not a single European country (where most Amercans came from) allows citizens to posses guns

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i even have never seen a gun

[13:28] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:28] herman Bergson: I am really flabbergasted by this weapon obsession by Americans

[13:29] CB Axel: If someone puts up a post on FB saying that CB Axel has died, I'm going to check at least one more source to verify that information.

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only in a museum..a very old one

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true, i would indeed not feel safe if everyone was prepared to shoot me at anytime

[13:29] CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Just the thought that private people around me are carrying guns....so absurd

[13:30] CB Axel: But I think the people who think guns are necessary believe that there is a threat around every corner.

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do young Americans think that life is a computergame?

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have used guns a lot though, done a lot of target practice with one at work who is a hunter

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone whispers: did you know the irony bout that?

[13:30] roos Gartner is offline.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good coordination training and making a little noise is fun sometimes

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] CB Axel: They believe the hype the media tells them that crime is everywhere.

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone whispers: (just read that since trump is president the gun sale dropped 30 % - with remington going bankrupped now)

[13:31] CB Axel: I can understand the fun of target practice, but the guns should be kept at the target range and not carried everywhere, imo.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Ciska....

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i thought the opposite would be true since he is basically insane

[13:31] herman Bergson: no no Bejiita....

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if i have actually heard a FEW good things from him

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): note a few, not many

[13:32] herman Bergson: The explanation is that under Trump there won't come restrictive laws on weapn possession

[13:32] CB Axel: That's right, Ciska. Gun sales go up with Democrats have the White House and Congress because people are convinced that the Dems will try to restrict gun sales.

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who can deside if you going to live or die?

[13:32] CB Axel: In the US, apparently, anyone can.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so people bunker guns?

[13:33] herman Bergson: the gun, Beertje...no..the trigger

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes - but there  u can see the psychology of all of that is really nuts.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now they feel they done need to

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont

[13:33] herman Bergson: The AMerican Dresm...How to be your true self...Get a gun

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so freedom doens't exsist in the US

[13:34] herman Bergson: dream

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and shoot everyone on sight

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least some seem to think that

[13:34] herman Bergson: not necessarily Bejiita...:-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): violence feeds violence

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): = big problem

[13:35] Second Life: Beertje Beaumont gave you Drugs_Cypress Hill Joint (animated Joint).

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): shall we ever be free?

[13:36] CB Axel: The news media lead us to believe that there is crime everywhere, but when I ask people I know if they've or anyone they know personally has ever been a victim of violent crime they can't think of any. Yet, they're convinced that they need to walk around with concealed weapons.

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are even a prisoner of our own bodies

[13:36] herman Bergson: Did you ever watch TV CB...:-)

[13:37] herman Bergson: Dozens of Crime series...

[13:37] herman Bergson: All US made

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm yes, too many

[13:37] CB Axel: Even when I had a TV, I rarely watched those shows. I prefer comedies. °͜°

[13:37] herman Bergson: I am watching a series which is totally bizar.....at the moment

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i never watch them

[13:38] CB Axel: What show is that, Herman?

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:38] herman Bergson: I watch  to be amazed again and again about how bizar it is....

[13:38] herman Bergson: it is called Criminal MInds....

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there is always a nerdin the show that knows it all

[13:38] herman Bergson: The series has 227 episodes !!!!!

[13:38] CB Axel: I never watched that.

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow, a lot to watch Herman

[13:39] herman Bergson: and every episode is about how to catch a serial killer...

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: have some fun herman and switch to Murdoch Mysteries ;)

[13:39] herman Bergson: conclusion is...the US is infested with serial killers

[13:40] CB Axel: I do listen to a podcast about true crime. It's interesting, and has taught me to stay away from weirdos.

[13:40] herman Bergson: If you look at the underlying psychology.....so American....

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't forget the violent computergames

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): averyone shoots everyone

[13:41] herman Bergson: Because one of your postings on FB , CB, I saw a video...

[13:41] CB Axel: Which posting was that?

[13:41] herman Bergson: a woman in court....had  ignored a red stopping light....

[13:42] herman Bergson: judge asked her 9 year old daughter...why...

[13:42] herman Bergson: the kid said....there was a man at the sidewalk and my mom didnt dare to stop...

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because was afraid he would shoot them?

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes or open the door of the car and so on...

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy

[13:44] CB Axel: Those things do happen, but not as often as people here think they do.

[13:44] herman Bergson: I never would get the idea that anyone here ever would do that

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: it seems to totally depend...

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems they cant separate fiction from reality

[13:45] CB Axel: I had a gym bag stolen from the front seat of my car while I was stopped at a light, but having a gun on me wouldn't have prevented that. The gun probably would have been stolen, too.

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: a friend of mine in here  was in shock some weeks ago because the police came to arrest her co-worker

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tv and games are not reality, well unless they are based on actual facts and not made up fantasy things like most are

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: he had shot his wife and  went to work for three more days as if nothing had happend.

[13:45] CB Axel: Wow!

[13:45] herman Bergson: Really???

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: she  could not grasp it

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WOO GET NAKED!!!!!!

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ohh

[13:45] CB Axel: Where did he get a gun?

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: she wa totally in shock

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: damn need to reprogram that one!

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: seems he had one

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds horrific

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: she is in oregon

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders

[13:46] CB Axel: Oh.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can buy a gun in Belgium

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scary stuff

[13:46] herman Bergson: You mean it happened in the US, Ciska??

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: but she is totally shaken now about how to trust

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: a friend in here

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: know her for years

[13:47] CB Axel: People like to point out that Chicago has a high murder rate, but Illinois (the state Chicago is in) has rather strict gun laws. They use that as proof that gun laws don't work.

[13:47] CB Axel: What they don't bother to look into is that the gun laws in neighboring states are much less strict.

[13:47] herman Bergson: CB...it is utter nonsense that private persons should have guns...period

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well carry in weapons from there and the law is useless

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats simple

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and logical

[13:48] CB Axel: A person in Chicago can literally walk across the street into Indiana, buy a gun, and walk back into strict Illinois and shoot someone.

[13:48] herman Bergson: The right to violence is to the Government only

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:48] CB Axel: That's why we need nation-wide gun laws.

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ask Trump to realize that CB

[13:49] CB Axel: LOL

[13:49] herman Bergson: The problem is that that is a lost cause CB....

[13:49] CB Axel: That's a good one, Beertje.

[13:49] herman Bergson: whatever law you make in the US....

[13:49] CB Axel: I needed a laugh. hehehe

[13:49] herman Bergson: there are more guns in the US than inhabitants

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MORE WEAPONS, MORE NUCLEAR BOMBS, MORE POLLUTION (Trump)

[13:50] CB Axel: But actually only a small percentage of Americans own a large amount of guns.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:50] herman Bergson: owning one is enough...

[13:50] herman Bergson: and a lot do

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this weapon issue is a problem fr sure, just look at these school shootings and you have the proof right there

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): their response: "Give teachers guns"

[13:51] herman Bergson: We are of topic..but ok...but indeed Bejiita..have you seenthe statistics over th eyears....shocking!

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeee NO! thats NOT the solution

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they think

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that it is

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guns do not = freedom

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a fact

[13:52] CB Axel: You will never convince me that the solution to gun violence is more guns.

[13:52] CB Axel: Never.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true CB

[13:52] herman Bergson: Welll..maybe you touch the basic belief there Bejiita....

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just a never ending spiral of violence and murder

[13:53] herman Bergson: GUN = FREEDOM according to AMercan belief....

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it never can be freedom

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed not

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): free to shoot a person?

[13:53] CB Axel: Well, a lot of people think that owning a gun makes them tough and macho. They ignore the fact that small children, toddlers, shoot people. So they're as tough and macho as a 3 year old.

[13:54] herman Bergson: I think they love to refer to the Wild West  and th egun slingers here

[13:54] CB Axel: That's what I'm afraid of, Herman.

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats for sure something you want to be free from, the risk to get shot by anyone

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): life has no value anymore then

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have even heard stories about people getting their head blown of when they knock on the wrong door

[13:55] CB Axel: Yes. That has happened, but not that often.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ding dong!, BLAM!, door opens

[13:55] CB Axel: I just stay home and hang out in SL. °͜°

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully not often

[13:56] herman Bergson: Bejiita...car accidents happen more often...

[13:56] herman Bergson: so keep it in proportion plz :-)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that is true

[13:56] CB Axel: But the media reports on those things, Bejiita, because it attracts viewers.

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess thats how it is

[13:57] herman Bergson: Anyway...Guess we all can agree upon that th eUS has a problem here....

[13:57] CB Axel: Good news does not generate money for news outlets.

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i don't really know where to get real facts from anymore and i want real facts but it is as you say CB

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just fake news to make money

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: it might if it would be motivational cb ㋡

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully things will get better

[13:58] herman Bergson: ok...my final shot....

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least all of you are nice people and great friends

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....^_^

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so cu all next time

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank youall again...:-))

[13:58] CB Axel: Sometimes it's real news. People do get shot by mistake. But more people do not get shot. The danger gets inflated when people hear about those isolated incidents and don't think about all the times they themselves walked down the street without harm.

[13:59] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): True CB

[13:59] herman Bergson: CB..it is like Trump about the FBI......

[13:59] CB Axel: I apologize for dominating the conversation. It's just that I feel strongly about gun issues and feel extremely frustrated.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): understand that cb

[14:00] herman Bergson: The mistake is made is due to their involvement in the Russia investigation...

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no need to apologize CB

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: totally understandable cb

[14:00] herman Bergson: We feel the same CB.....are flabbergasted by what happens

[14:00] CB Axel: Trump is an idiot. I don't listen to anything he says.

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agrees on that

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and if anything is fake news its everything he says

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least most of it

[14:01] herman Bergson: I spent a lot of time on Youtube watching all kinds of videos...

[14:01] CB Axel: You feel flabbergasted, but I do not have freedom from the fear of being caught in the crossfire in a shoot-out at the grocery.

[14:01] herman Bergson: Stephen Colbert and others but also Sarah Sanders and KellyAnn....

[14:02] CB Axel: I watch Colbert and Trevor Noah on the Daily Show.

[14:02] herman Bergson: I really wonder....what is going on there at you rplace CB?

[14:02] herman Bergson: Don't people get crazy about a president who gets ridiculed every day?

[14:03] herman Bergson: day

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: what we can al be sure of is that when trump is no longer president we will read the story of his wife as a book and she will make a lot of money form that how much of a victim she was... thats something I would bet  a year of my income on

[14:04] herman Bergson: oh yes!

[14:04] CB Axel: There are too many people who think the people who ridicule Trump are the idiots. They believe everything he says and love everything he tweets.

[14:04] herman Bergson: She is already ready for it I would say...and already writing too..:-)

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true, and its scary for sure

[14:04] CB Axel: I've been thinking the same thing, Ciska.

[14:04] CB Axel: I hope she does.

[14:05] Ciska Riverstone: the really bad thing is that we all kind of know

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when i first heard trumps screeching over a year before he got president i thought, DUH what an idiot, no worries, that one will be locked up in an asylum soon

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i was wrong

[14:05] CB Axel: I always have nice feelings for our First Ladies no matter who their husband is or what party he belongs to, but I fear for Melania.

[14:06] herman Bergson: Well BEjiita....

[14:06] herman Bergson: at least he succeeded in one thing....

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): making an unexpected victory?

[14:06] herman Bergson: removing the US from the world theater of politics

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess thats also true

[14:07] Ciska Riverstone: well he still has putin

[14:07] herman Bergson: We can not take this country to be serious or reliable anymore, I'd say

[14:07] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least ww3 have not started yet

[14:07] CB Axel: Yes. I've never really been comfortable living in a "world power." I think I'd like to live somewhere small and quiet like Ireland. °͜°

[14:08] herman Bergson: Come to the Netherlands CB :-)

[14:08] herman Bergson: You are welcome :-)