705: Is the Self only an image?

Today will be the last lecture of the project "In Search of our Self".

   

If you want hardcore philosophy about this subject, then try "Personal Identity" as search word.

    

When you check the "Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy" or "The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy" you'll find very complex articles.

    

As an example the next quote: "Answers to the persistence question often provide a criterion of personal identity. 

     

A criterion is a set of non-trivial necessary and sufficient conditions that determines, insofar as that is possible, 

    

whether distinct temporally indexed person-stages are stages of one and the same continuant person. " END QUOTE -

     

What the author means to say is, that we exist and persist in time and what stays the same through time, you could call your Self, your personal identity.

    

And  then the debate begins. Is the criterion derived from the body, or from psychological features  or from both together?

     

In our world of technology and medicines so much is possible. Suppose a brain is transplanted into another body? 

      

Or the total personality change  which people show who are demented. Do they yet stay the same person?

    

Suppose this demented person has written and signed a declaration, when he still was 100% "himself", in which  he states,

     

that, if he will suffer of total dementia, he wants to die, when in that state. Euthanasia when totally demented, is his wish. Does the demented person agree with this choice?

    

Such questions and discussions made me think of Wilfrid Sellars. Maybe his ideas can help us to keep the debate transparant.

    

In his "Philosophy and the Scientific Image of Man" (1962), Sellars distinguishes between the "manifest image" and the "scientific image" of the world.

      

The Manifest Image includes intentions, thoughts, and appearances. Sellars rules out appeal to imperceptible entities.

      

The Scientific Image describes the world in terms of the theoretical physical sciences. It includes notions such as causality and theories about particles and forces.

     

The two images sometimes complement one another, and sometimes conflict. For example, the manifest image includes practical or moral claims, whereas the scientific image does not.

      

There is conflict, for instance. where science tells us that apparently solid objects are mostly empty space.

     

Sellars favours a synoptic vision, wherein the scientific image takes ultimate precedence in cases of conflict, at least with respect to empirical descriptions and explanations.

    

Maybe we only see our Self in the Manifest Image and not in the Scientific Image.

    

Consider an analogy: Rodin's "Le Penseur" is made of bronze. Although the lump of bronze and the statue itself surely exist, 

      

these objects have different persistence conditions: if melted down, "Le Penseur" ceases to exist while the lump of bronze does not. 

     

Therefore, they are not identical; rather, so is the suggestion, the lump of bronze constitutes the statue. 

      

The same is true of persons, who are constituted by, but not identical with, a physiology, a psychology, and the occurrence of an interrelated series of causal and cognitive relations.

     

So maybe the Person, the Self is in its manifestation only an image ?

      

This concludes our project.. The next project will start on TUESDAY MARCH 27.......

    

Thank you for your attention again....^_^

The Discussion

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): manifest image

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes...I like this idea of Sellars

[13:24] herman Bergson: Many discussions seem to mix these two images

[13:25] herman Bergson: which is only confusing

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are 2 different views for sure

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes...kind of common sense view and scientific view, Bejiita

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will have to read up on those both

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that statue example was a good one

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes...most important is the ontological implications

[13:27] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.

[13:27] herman Bergson: the point is that the staue "exists"....but in what way....

[13:27] herman Bergson: while the bronze exists in the physical (scientific) way

[13:27] herman Bergson: same with the person....

[13:28] herman Bergson: We have that book with the title ....WE ARE OUR BRAIN

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the metal is the same chemically but its shape is changed

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 2 different things

[13:28] herman Bergson: but this analogy shows that this is not true

[13:28] herman Bergson: YEs BEjiita....but in what way does that shape "exist"

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shape is a property only

[13:29] herman Bergson: It does...the statue is there....yo can see it

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a property of the substance

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that can be changed

[13:29] herman Bergson: ISn't it great....

[13:29] herman Bergson: we end up in an old old philosophical debate....

[13:29] herman Bergson: the ontological status of properties

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right back t the beginning

[13:30] CB Axel: So we can be shaped like the bronze.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:30] herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma.....back to the Ancient Greek to begin with

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we can never get away from them

[13:30] CB Axel: lol

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will be so after the 20th century i bet

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:31] herman Bergson: A statue for CB , please :-)

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (3d prints one)

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: ㋡

[13:31] herman Bergson: Good plan Bejiita

[13:32] herman Bergson: The interesting thing is...what Sellars does....

[13:32] CB Axel: I can't help but think about clones. If one clones a dog, they get something that looks like the original dog, but the clone has it's own self.

[13:32] herman Bergson: He makes science a kind of a-moral....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes dolly at UCONN

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sheep

[13:32] herman Bergson: He puts the moral questions into the Manifest image

[13:33] herman Bergson: and thinking of it....that is a questionable position

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:33] herman Bergson: as if science is a-political in its choices...

[13:33] herman Bergson: and a-,oral

[13:34] herman Bergson: a-moral

[13:34] herman Bergson: The more I think about it.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: his idea is outdated but charming

[13:35] herman Bergson: I hear noo protests, so I guess you agree :-)))

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need to know more of Sellars

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall check him out

[13:35] herman Bergson: You got two weeks at least Gemma :-)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: Wilfrid Sellars

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will he be a big part of the next theme?

[13:36] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or dismissed

[13:36] herman Bergson: no...

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i wont check to hard then

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too hard

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Gemma

[13:37] herman Bergson: The next theme will begin at 1900 :-)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love the historical idea here

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes..me too Gemma....

[13:37] herman Bergson: Digging into all that stuff....seeing connections....

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): too bad for the ones who were born in 2000

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this can be really exciting and good

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well Beertje....I really wonder now and then.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Those born in 2000 and later.....and knowing that I wont make 2030 :-)

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:39] herman Bergson: A next generation will carry on.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: wel...I am 68 Gemma....will I make 98...? :-)))

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes !

[13:40] herman Bergson: lol

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): keep breathing

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes...true...:-)

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I know a couple who are over 100

[13:41] herman Bergson: But I think we'll check out this 20th century and see what all our kids will take with them....into the future

[13:41] CB Axel: My great-grandmother lived to be 103.  I hope I don't take after her.

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what I ment was...those born in 2000 can't remember anything from that century

[13:41] herman Bergson: We have hostory books Beertje :-)

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no i think that is why so many movies are being remade

[13:42] CB Axel: There's no need for them to remember anything. They have Google.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and  theater too

[13:42] herman Bergson: and the always can google on "2000"

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..but remembering from your experiences is different

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( and I remember a lot )...lol

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:43] herman Bergson: the year  2000 itself was totally uninteresting :-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: Nothing happened...no millennium bug at all

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it did not blow up

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: exactly Gemma :-)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we really were all so nervous

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe the millennium bug has..een hollands ketiekre

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ketierke

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however there could have been some serious issues, but they were able to fix them in time

[13:44] herman Bergson: That may have happened indeed Bejiita

[13:45] herman Bergson: anyway......

[13:45] herman Bergson: from now on you are all on your Self now :-))

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looking forward to the new topic

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): topic

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mostly was COBOL variables with only 2 numbers that could have done some stuff to finance stuff and such since banks still rely on it and most colbol programmers are since long retired

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): while i continue looking for myself

[13:45] herman Bergson: I'll do what I can Gemma :-)

[[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah ㋡

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looking forward to this

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can be really good

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hope i will be here on the 27 th..i go on a holiday too

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation.....:-)

[13:46] herman Bergson: You deserve a vacation! :-))

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a good rest now hermand and all others too

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh i thought i lose my shoes but bergie is going barefoot

[13:47] herman Bergson: I gonna study onthe new topic Bejiita...:-)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa:)

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): our brains need a rest

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes beertje

[13:47] herman Bergson: If I tortured you too much, I apologize :-)

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you did :))

[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i feel the spring:-)

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we do

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): spring

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa hopefully soon

[13:48] herman Bergson: YES Bergie...me too :-))

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it start getting warmer now at least finally

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however expecting 8 inches of sow tomorrow

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): snow@@!

[13:48] CB Axel: We had snow overnight, but not much.

[13:48] herman Bergson: oh my....

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 8-12

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a lot

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:48] herman Bergson: we just had a week of snow and frost....

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but it wont last long will get warmer

[13:48] CB Axel: Yes. The storm that hit north of me is heading east. °͜°

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but then another on Monday maybe !!!

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): March is mean

[13:49] herman Bergson: I am glad winter is over here

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is it??

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you are sure??

[13:49] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:49] herman Bergson: Don't try to frighten me Gemma!

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who's afraid of a bit snow?

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i saw a picture of people walking on the water in Amsterdam

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the other day

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes yes.....that was possible last week!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wans't that jesus walking on water?

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope lots of Amsterdam people

[13:51] herman Bergson: oh,....so many Jesuses in Amsterdam Beertje?

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all jesusses

[13:51] herman Bergson: gender neutral Jesus, I guess

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): of course :)

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are gender neutral now

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): enjoy your vacation

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm a uhhhmmm  wo...uhhmmm man

[13:52] herman Bergson: I will Gemma...time to read a lot

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye all for now

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all ㋡

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)))

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): until next time, have a good time

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] CB Axel: Good bye, everyone. I'll see you all on the other side of the time change. °͜°

[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: happy vacation you all!

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed CB

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman :-)

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): need to clean this carpet Herman,, stull pooh on the ground :)

[13:53] herman Bergson: oh my

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fijne vakantie

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol Beertje

   

704: Against Technology......

“Luddite” is now a blanket term used to describe people who dislike new technology, 

    

but its origins date back to a 19th century labor movement that railed against the economic fallout of the Industrial Revolution. 

     

The original Luddites were British weavers and textile workers who objected to the increased use of automated looms and knitting frames. 

   

Most were trained artisans who had spent years learning their craft, and they feared that unskilled machine operators were robbing them of their livelihood. 

    

When their appeals for government aid and assistance were ignored, a few desperate weavers began breaking into factories and smashing textile machines (1811 - 1813). 

      

They called themselves “Luddites” after Ned Ludd, a young apprentice who was rumored to have wrecked a textile apparatus in the late-18th century.

     

This is a historical example of our ambivalence regarding improving ourselves 

      

The word 'technology' can be understood in at least two different ways: on the one hand as a concrete material product 

      

that is not part of nature but has been invented and designed by man, for example a pair of glasses or a prosthesis. 

      

On the other hand as the 'art' to control nature. The word 'technique' comes from the Greek word "techne", which means 'art', 

     

for example by using a random stick from the forest as a walking stick, or the force to use falling water with the help of a paddle wheel. 

   

This ambivalent attitude is much older. More than 2000 years ago Plato warned for the dangers of writing (which, by the way, he did in writing himself:-)

    

In the "Phaedrus" Socrates tells a story about the ancient Egyptian god Theut, who presents all his inventions to the king of Egypte, the god Thames. One of the inventions is script.

     

-QUOTE- and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. 

     

For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. 

  

Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. 

   

You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, 

   

for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things,

   

when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise. -END QUOUTE -

   

Really funny to read. It makes me think about the arrival of a TV in the living room. We all would turn into couch potatoes.

   

The use of calculators in math class....horror!!! The use of computers....and most recently the development of robotics.

    

Wild stories of how many people will lose their job.

    

On the one hand technology becomes an attachment to ourselves like we enjoy here in Second Life our attachments

    

and on the other hand, already since Plato at least, we are still scared by this technological developments.

    

An interesting observation...... thank you for your attention again :-)

     

 The Discussion

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and every time someone starts up a new particle accelerator everyone screams about the doomsday

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): tx

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed seems this fear of new things have always been there

[13:28] herman Bergson: Ahh yes Bejiita....so I heard

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we always will be however the next generation always adapts and improves by the technology

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): used wrong technology can cause havoc but used right it can improve for everyone and everything

[13:29] herman Bergson: It was funny to read how Plato already complained about technology :-))

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a simple way to put it

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Are we ruled or do we rule?

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Or is it symbiotic?

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Loo...maybe that is the basic fear

[13:30] herman Bergson: Like this Big Data mining can scare the hell out of people regarding their privacy

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the charge is here that when these kids today are using the screen too much will never socialized... we saw some amazing kids face cameras and talk with uch poise and passion after the killings of 17 in their schools

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): such poise

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and dedication to changing the laws here

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and how to do it!!

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was wonderful education

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: peoples fear is always to get de-evaluated...

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes that is the new fear.....screen addiction and getting bad eyesight....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:32] herman Bergson: They said that about TV too

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: and here we are.....all at our own computerscreen :-)))

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "baby, dont look to much on tv! you will get square eyes!"

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): In the Zeta-Ah household we are all on separate screens at the moment.... but for one hour we come together to eat and debate ..... and with 2 of us having master's the conversation gets heavy

[13:33] herman Bergson: has something funny in it :-))

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a classic moms used to say to their kids

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and of course change in music is the same

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): herman faints at trance

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Loo....to have dinner you have to leave the screen and watch the plate :-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the importnt thing is to use the proper distance and not stare onstantly at the screen but on other things as well, i can use a computer for hours without issue then

[13:34] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Each generation adapts, and the dinosaurs become extinct

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i even got myself some special glasses to wear at night to take out the blue light of the computer

[13:34] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): <------ glasses="" now="" span="" wears="">

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): these fit over the regular glasses

[13:35] CB Axel: Maybe our next topic should be "How does having a Second Life change our first lives?" °͜°

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:35] herman Bergson: Heard about that.....prevents seratonine shortage, isnt it?

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it has

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): You can adjust your gamma also in settings to be more 'yellow'

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think so

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however i also want to move around and do things in between, if all there is to do after work is in front of the computer i get tired of it in a while but turning on an interesting movie usually solve that issue when it is so cold outside there is nothing more to do

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): these are easier to do

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone whispers: (my screen does that automatically at 0:00 so I know its time to go to bed ;) )

[13:36] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Ciska yes we have the app to do it

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes i had that but when i lost my computer I cannot get to that nightlight setting

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so got the glasses

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but whatever ativity it is im doing i find i need to occupy me with something constantly

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not fighting with windows 10!!!!!!

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or ill get tired and bored instntly,

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and just want to sleep then

[13:37] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): <----- mac="" span="" user="">

[13:37] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): i wonder if people complained about shoes when they were first introduced.  How about spoken language?

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...I just switch off my computer and go to bed...that is all :-)

[13:37] CB Axel: I bet the wheel freaked everyone out. °͜°

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i can not just sit and do nothing

[13:37] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Oh and eating apples from that naughty tree of knowledge

[13:38] herman Bergson: the wheel...what wheel CB?

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): reinventing the heel is a bad thing to do

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:38] CB Axel: The original wheel. New technology of ancient times.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes...that must have been amazing ;-))

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): books were feared

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): into in the hands of the peasants

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only the elite

[13:39] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Printing press

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is why I love THE NAME OF THE ROSE....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes, one of the most important inventions of all

[13:39] herman Bergson: all about the fear of one book  :-)

[13:39] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): about every 500 years a major upheaval...

[13:39] CB Axel: I think the printing press freaked out the clergy more than anyone.

[13:39] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): renaissance

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now it is every week!!!!

[13:39] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): *probably spelt that wrong*

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....that is why the 20th century is so exceptional

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it is

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good topic!!!!!!

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): his can be good

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this

[13:40] herman Bergson: I love a more broader cultural topic now....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone whispers: (thank you herman - have to tiptoe - have a nice day/night everyone)

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok ciska

[13:41] CB Axel: Bye, Ciska.

[13:41] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): We are in an algorithm of of speed to become integrated to tech

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too late

[13:41] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Bye

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): misses beertje

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least i have discovered that video games is the ultimate form of art because they combine all of them into one package

[13:41] herman Bergson: Oh Beertje excused herself for today.....

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and lot of good tools to use

[13:42] herman Bergson: she was too tired to stay up late

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why i love doing that so much

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i get that

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): take whats in my head and make the ultimate story using all forms of art at the same time

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): learning them all at once

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now thats something

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:43] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I have recently retired and need to tap into my creativity

[13:43] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Bring it on!!!

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i do that by writing for the slnewser

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have authoring and writing, drawing and painting, programming, animating and movie creation in 1 package here

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all in 1

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the ultimate form of art

[13:44] herman Bergson: That is why I started the Philosophy Class Loo

[13:44] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): VR can do that yes but it is a decade old now

[13:44] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): :)

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was way before your retirement !!!

[13:44] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Heheh

[13:45] herman Bergson: Only one year Gemma :-))

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no!!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think not

[13:45] herman Bergson: I agree...retirement was not the reason

[13:45] herman Bergson: although....it was meant to prevent intellectual retirement :-)

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol+

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well it worked

[13:46] herman Bergson: After twenty years of teaching computerclasses I wanted to return to my real love...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Because I had graduated in philosophy...not in computer technology :-)

[13:47] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): :)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] herman Bergson: And we made it for ten years+ now :-)

[13:47] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): But integrated well here

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:47] herman Bergson: And I have some  new inspiration for a new theme

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are inspiring aren't we

[13:48] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for your inspiring participation :-)

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: You are  Gemma :-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:48] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Thanks

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now i shall go run a fishing contest

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well this can be good indeed

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye all

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa those,long time since i did these

[13:49] CB Axel: I need to go melt the snow on my parcel. °͜°

[13:49] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma :-)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu all soon

[13:49] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): bye everyone

[13:49] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Take care

[13:49] CB Axel: Will we be starting a new topic next week?

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!interesting hour :-) as always

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it yes

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then

[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: nice weekend:-) see you next week

[13:50] CB Axel: Bye.

703: An Overview and a Final Question...

In Search of our Self we may after dozens of lectures  ask the question, did we find anything? 

    

Although many philosophical debates often rather lead to more questions than answers, I'd a YES.

    

The Self is not just a philosophical and theoretical issue, but due to our present day neurobiological insights also an empirical matter.

   

In his book "Self comes to Mind" (2010)  Antonio Damasio relates many experiences of a self to all kinds of parts of the physical brain.

    

At least with one simple observation we can begin: no physical brain means no consciousness, consequently no mind and consequently no self.

   

The next step is, that where there is a brain there is consciousness and thence  there can be all kinds of levels of having a mind.

    

This can be confirmed by the observation that some animals are smarter than others. That means for instance, that they are more convenient in solving problems.

   

The next stage of consciousness and mind is, that the organism shows to be conscious of its individual existence.

    

We know that some animals like dolphins, elephants, some primates are able to recognize themselves.

    

What we see is consciousness as a continuum, where a "marker" moves from left to right,

   

where left means total absence of self-awareness and right means complete self-awareness.

   

We as homo sapiens sit at the very right end of this continuum. We are 100% self-aware and during our life we have a strong feeling of a Self.

   

First observation is, that our Self must be the result of the activity of the brain as Damasio explained.

   

What we all experience regarding our Self is a kind of continuity and coherence. The first stage is our experience of our bodily continuity.

       

It is what Damasio calls the "protoself". It boils down to our awareness of our bodily continuity. As a baby we discover our toes and I am aware of them still at my age.

       

What is essential here and what makes us differ from other organisms is our unique awareness of time and space.

   

When we learn to physically interact with the world around us we discover our autonomous and authentic Self: "That was ME, who did this!"

   

Due to our awareness of time our memories become a part of our Self, our personal identity.

   

Finally our Self becomes our personal narrative, which enables us to tell a uniques story about our Self.

   

Our body changes through the years. We acquire new skills. Memories fade, new ones are stored. The Self thus is a continuous flux.

   

-QUOTE- You are not subject to any restrictions. You will determine your nature for yourself according to your own free will which I have entrusted to you. 

  

I have not made you heavenly and not earthy, not mortal and not immortalized. As a free and sovereign artist you have to be your own sculptor, 

   

as it were, and express yourself in the form you prefer. You can degenerate into the lower forms, the animal, 

   

but you can also be reborn through your own will in the higher forms, which are divine. -END QUOT -

You can be the designer of your own Self, according to Pico della Mirandola (1463 -1494),

an Italian Renaissance nobleman and philosopher.

   

Already in those days they knew, that you design your own Self. Only question left is, can we improve on that.....?

    

Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:25] ThalesMiletus: Interesting. Thanks herman.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free :-)

[13:26] herman Bergson: This is a kind of final conclusion on my behalf

[13:27] herman Bergson: My question is....what should be the next project be about ???? ^_^

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Self is indeed an interesting concept, its both simple and complex at same time

[13:27] herman Bergson: Indeed bejiita...it looks simple but shows to be pretty complex

[13:27] ThalesMiletus: Next project?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Thales....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): speaking of that surrealist thing, maybe something relating to that like dreams or something similar

[13:28] ThalesMiletus: In what context?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): could be interesting

[13:28] herman Bergson: So far I did about 15 projects...

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I want more

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: didn't u say its atheism Herman?

[13:29] herman Bergson: what is...Ciska?

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: the next project ;)

[13:29] ThalesMiletus: Btw, I don't really know what would be meant by 100% self-awareness unless we just mean relative to other lifeforms on earth. It seems there is quite a lot of unconscious activity in our brains we are totally unaware of.

[13:29] herman Bergson: I already did one on atheism...

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: ah - I misunderstood then

[13:30] herman Bergson: Project number 12 it was :-)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes it seems familiar

[13:30] ThalesMiletus: I don't know what the projects were so it's hard for me to suggest anything without overlapping what you've probably already one.

[13:30] ThalesMiletus: *done

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Thales...relative to other lifeforms

[13:31] herman Bergson: All   projects are listed in my Profile picks...:-)

[13:31] herman Bergson: pick 01.

[13:31] ThalesMiletus: Right, so a scale of less and more self-aware.. but I don't think there is an absolute end to that scale.

[13:32] herman Bergson: and indeed there is a lot going on in our brain we are not aware of

[13:32] herman Bergson: that was the next question....can we improve on it...:-))

[13:33] herman Bergson: We'll talk about that in the next lecture :-))

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i guess most things can be improved, question is just how

[13:34] ThalesMiletus: I think the melding of philosophy and science and the resulting education from that is certainly one general way how.

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone whispers: but a very oooooold one too ;)

[13:35] ThalesMiletus: as long as it works

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats an idea

[13:37] herman Bergson: So the question is...what would you like to be the subject of our next project?

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what about that with dreams and what hapens in them, but thats as you said more psychology maybe

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: Time

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thinking of something on this surreal theme since i started taking up that theme again today

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...

[13:38] ThalesMiletus: I see that 11 was Why Science is Right... maybe something to challenge that, like... Can Science be Wrong?

[13:38] ThalesMiletus: I don't know what was said during 11.

[13:38] herman Bergson: TIME....oh my....the philosophy of time.....

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: well I think that might be interesting no?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes....

[13:39] ThalesMiletus: Time is a crazy subject.. it seems no one can really agree what it is.

[13:39] herman Bergson: It is one of the biggest problems for us....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: hheheh so its a bit like.... let me think

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone whispers: consciousness?

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:40] ThalesMiletus: even worse I think

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well self awareness we did here i think a bit

[13:40] herman Bergson: I don't see consciousness as a problem....

[13:40] herman Bergson: we know where it comes from...the brain....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: imeant in terms of agreeing on what it is

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm tricky but i bet there are a ton of things we have not taken up yet

[13:40] herman Bergson: what we do not know is how the brain generates consciousness

[13:41] herman Bergson: not do we know how it came into being somewhere in evolution

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Still think about this dream philosophy idea if it can be done

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as a project

[13:42] herman Bergson: that is psychology, Bejiita...

[13:42] ThalesMiletus: I'm still thinking about project 11. What about the difference between philosophy and science?

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have not done it before and its very different from the other ones

[13:43] ThalesMiletus: So what do you mean by dream philosophy

[13:44] ThalesMiletus: To be honest, it sounds kind of like dream interpretation.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ann...wake up...help us out! :-))

[13:44] Ann Forbes: I like all of your ideas. I've been daydreaming about them.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i m just thinking about whats actually happening, the brain can indeed come up with really crazy things when we dream, hence these surrealistic situations

[13:44] herman Bergson: yes Thales....not my line of work :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still can you describe it as philosophy

[13:44] ThalesMiletus: Ok, so discussing why we dream?

[13:44] ThalesMiletus: What the function might be?

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what happens

[13:45] herman Bergson: that still is a physiological or psychological question]

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess it is

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just have some stuff spinning around that i try weave together in some way

[13:46] ThalesMiletus: So was this project you just finished #15 - The Meaning of Life?

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Self was the theme right?

[13:46] ThalesMiletus: herman?

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes we are still here Thales...that must have a meaning ^_^

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] ThalesMiletus: or was that the last one?

[13:47] ThalesMiletus: and this one isn't listed yet

[13:47] herman Bergson: It was the one before this one :-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: I updated the picks just now

[13:48] herman Bergson: so reload it and see

[13:48] herman Bergson: Project 17 is the new one...:-)

[13:48] ThalesMiletus: Anyway, I'm not a regular so I should stay out of this discussion

[13:48] herman Bergson: no no....everyone is equal here Thales :-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: WEll...

[13:50] ThalesMiletus: herman did you have some options?

[13:50] herman Bergson: Next lecture(s) will be on how to improve our Self...:-)

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Thales...I have a no theme here on my desk for the next project....but I wanted your opinion

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds good

[13:51] ThalesMiletus: my unequal equal opinion :)

[13:52] herman Bergson: My problem is that Ido not like to redo a project theme...

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): take your time and you /we will figure somethign good put

[13:52] ThalesMiletus: although you could do some variant of a theme that may shed some different light on it

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): out

[13:52] herman Bergson: We certainly will Bejita :-)

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: You almost guessed the theme of my next project Thales :-))))

[13:53] ThalesMiletus: hmm

[13:54] herman Bergson: What is your idea Bergie?

[13:55] herman Bergson: Same as Ann, it seems :-))

[13:55] Ann Forbes: :)

[13:55] herman Bergson grins

[13:55] herman Bergson: time to dismiss this class :-)

[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank youall for your participation again :-))

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:56] Ann Forbes: Thank you

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same ㋡

[13:56] ThalesMiletus: Thanks herman

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu soon again

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i like Ciska idea@ the time

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: take care bejiita

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class!! it was very interesting

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Bejiita:-)