711: Our Roots.....

Our starting point of this project is the thesis that the 20th century has not been just another century,

   

but a period of time in which more fundamental changes took place, which shape the 21st century, than in all centuries before.

    

In the previous two lectures Sigmund Freud was our first proof of our thesis. He has had an indelible influence.

   

All of a sudden we had a subconscious and we accept the idea, that some human behavior is driven by subconscious processes.

    

We now regard it as obvious, that our present behavior and behavioral problems are or can be related to experiences from our childhood.

    

We think it is normal to explain someone's behavior by referring to his inferiority complex.

   

Judges find mitigating reasons regarding criminal behavior, based on the fact that the accused had such a traumatic childhood.

    

In other words, psychology can no longer be ignored in our society.

   

Now, what is the birthplace of this European society? I guess, that many would answer: Ancient Greece.

   

Yet, we need the year 1900 again for the right answer and the answer was given by Arthur Evans. It is Crete.

   

Sir Arthur John Evans (8 July 1851 – 11 July 1941) was an English archaeologist and pioneer in the study of Aegean civilization in the Bronze Age (c. 2500 until c. 800 BC). 

  

He is most famous for unearthing the palace of Knossos on the Greek island of Crete.

   

Why Crete and not Greece. It was noticed that the classic writers like Homer (650 BC) Thucydides (450 BC), Herodotus (480 BC) and Strabo (83 BC)  all talk about a king Minos.

   

In 1883 Evans found some clay tablets with inscriptions in an antique shop in Athens. The merchants told him, that they were from Crete.

      

Evans and his team began the excavations in Knossos in 1900, and continued for 35 years. 

   

Its size far exceeded his original expectations, as did the discovery of two ancient scripts,  

    

which he termed Linear A and Linear B, to distinguish their writing from the pictographs also present .

  

It was assumed that the city and palace, which were excavated, must have been the home of this king Minos.

   

This puts the start of our civilization between 2500 and 1500 BC on Crete. Evans named it the Minoic civilazation.

   

An object from this civilization was used in the 20th century: the labrys or pelekys.

   

Ioannis Metaxas ( 12 April 1871 – 29 January 1941) was a Greek soldier and politician, serving as Prime Minister of Greece from 1936 until his death in 1941. 

   

He governed constitutionally for the first four months of his tenure, and thereafter as the strongman of the fascist 4th of August Regime.

   

One of the main symbols of the Fourth of August regime was the labrys, an archaic symbol of the thunder god Zeus. 

  

The labrys is the double-headed axe, known to the Classical Greeks and to modern Greek speakers as pelekys. 

   

Metaxas chose the labrys as one of the principal symbols for his regime because he believed it to be the oldest symbol of all Hellenic civilizations.

   

The Minoic civilization stood at the cradle of ours. Ours is still there, ready to fight fascism...even with a double axe.

   

Thank you for your attention again .... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting

[13:26] herman Bergson: Crete was inhabited around 8000 to 7000 BC....

[13:26] herman Bergson: The homo sapiens there developed the ancient Greek script

[13:27] CB Axel: What did Minos do that made him a fascist?

[13:27] CB Axel: And ancient Greeks did scripting? Wow.

[13:27] herman Bergson: He was just a king...also known because of his labyrinth and his Minotaur

[13:27] CB Axel: I had no idea it went that far back. L)

[13:27] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): already the old greecs s a classic saiyng

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] CB Axel: I remember about the Minotaur.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greeks

[13:28] herman Bergson: A bull :-)

[13:28] herman Bergson: The story of Ariadne...

[13:29] herman Bergson: The girl that gave Hercules this thread to prevent  him to loose his way in the labyrinth

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:29] herman Bergson: Anyone familiar with that story?

[13:29] CB Axel: Yes. She got made into a spider.

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no, but I like to hear it

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, a true classic

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess thats where the term red thread comes from

[13:30] herman Bergson: You can google on it....tons of info on that

[13:30] herman Bergson: ahh...may be true Bejiita

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:31] Faust (faust.saenz): I think I read the oldest story was about Gilgamesh. i wonder if that made its way into Minoan culture.

[13:31] herman Bergson: I really don't know Faust

[13:32] herman Bergson: Is there a Minotaur like story in the Gilgamesh, Faust?

[13:32] Faust (faust.saenz): seems like a bit of connection. "The bull was important in the Minoan religion and culture, as it was in Sumer. Gilgamesh (who, according to Rohl, ruled in Uruk around 2487 BC) is shown as half-bull, half-man, as is the Cretan Minotaur in the much later Greek legend." http://mmtaylor.net/Holiday2000/Legends/Sumer-Crete.html

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well....there is a resemblance indeed!

[13:33] herman Bergson: interesting

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats why it is called a minotaur of course, its Minoan!

[13:34] herman Bergson: I wonder why people choose a bull :-)

[13:34] CB Axel: It's a sign of strength?

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical

[13:34] herman Bergson: Probably because they basically were peasants

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: power ;)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not thought of it much more then its a mix of man and bull with a cool sounding name

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: could draw it all

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: run over it all

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:35] herman Bergson: A good bull means prosperity

[13:35] CB Axel: Yeah. A farmer's strongest animal would be a bull.

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:35] CB Axel: As strong as an ox but more agile.

[13:35] Faust (faust.saenz): Nietzsche suggested worshiping the donkey.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:36] Faust (faust.saenz): But that's just silly

[13:36] herman Bergson smiles

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: because of its stubbernness? ;)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): silly = donkey

[13:36] CB Axel: I like donkeys, but I don't think I'd worship one.

[13:36] Faust (faust.saenz): :)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:36] CB Axel: But then, I wouldn't worship a bull, either.

[13:36] herman Bergson: There was a famous bull in the Netherlands....its name was Herman :-))

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes :)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:37] CB Axel: I wonder if the symbol of the US Democratic party is the donkey because of its silliness or its stubbornness.

[13:37] herman Bergson: You certainly will find info on him :-)

[13:37] CB Axel: Was Herman the bull the one who liked to smell flowers?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Why would you like to offend a donkey, CB?

[13:37] CB Axel: Or am I thinking of another bull?

[13:37] Marja Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats Ferdinand

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i heaard of that bull CB:)

[13:38] CB Axel: Oh, that's right. Thanks, Bejiita.

[13:38] CB Axel: I don't want to offend donkeys. It was the group here who mentioned silliness and stubbornness. °͜°

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] herman Bergson: As you see, I am not going into 100% philosophical issues only in this project....

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: Nietzsche seemed to love thos qualities at his later life pint ;)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its a mix of a bit of everything

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): De stier Herman (Lelystad, 16 december 1990 – Leiden, 2 april 2004) was de eerste transgene stier ter wereld. Geschiedenis. Vóór stier Herman werden 1154 ...

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was a transgender bull

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats needed to get it all together

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahaa

[13:40] herman Bergson: huhhhh???

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): transgene..oops sorry

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahah blushes

[13:40] herman Bergson: A girl with balls????

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok what more should we mix together (still thinks about renaming Herman to Ferdinand, naaah)

[13:41] CB Axel: In the US a transgender person is one who can't use public toilets. :-(

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[13:42] herman Bergson: Guess we can conclude our discussion for today

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a transgene bull

[13:42] herman Bergson: unless you still have that hot question or remark :-)

[13:42] CB Axel: Yes. I think we're getting confused.

[13:42] CB Axel: And it all started with a minotaur.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaa

[13:43] herman Bergson: before we all get transgened....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:43] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this gets even more confusing then my CG scripts

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pff from an old king to a transgene bull...heavy discussion tonight

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: thanx all

[13:43] herman Bergson: But feel free to continue the conversation :-))

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its fun so

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

710: Sigmund Freud and the Interpretation of Dreams...

If brought into the right situation, people can remember completely forgotten events from their earliest childhood, as Freud discovered.

   

The fact that those early memories related to the earliest youth showed that small children are going through a sexual phase.

    

During this phase, Freud argued, a young boy is attracted to his mother, making him feel a rival to his father, 

   

which he called the Oedipus complex, while a girl feels attracted to her father, the Elektra complex. 

   

According to Freud, this pattern would also determine the character and thus continue to play a role throughout life.

    

After the death of his father Freud began analyzing himself and his dreams. Dreams were important according to Freud. 

   

Because during the sleep the vigilance weakens with which the impulses of the id usually are suppressed, the id can use the dream as a cover to manifest itself. 

   

It was very risky to publish a book about dreams, Freud realized very well. 

   

The habit of explaining dreams goes back to the Old Testament, but the German title of the book, "Die Traumdeutung", was not exactly confidence-inspiring. 

  

By 'Traumdeutung' was meant the practice of fortune-tellers at the fair.

    

When you google on "Interpretation of Dreams" you'll find a lot of PDF files of Freud's book.

   

The one I found, is a nice edition and, by the way, in general a wonderful source of all kinds of literature: https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au

   

This is Freud's book om interpretation of dream https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/f/freud/sigmund/interpretation-of-dreams/index.html

   

The quintessential question is: do dreams have a meaning, not to confuse this with a functional meaning for the well-being of the central nervous system.

   

Freud introduced interpretation of dreams as a subject of the science of psychology. Whether dreams can have a meaning is not our real issue here.

   

Our observation is that in the 21th century you can collect a huge bookshelf full of books, which claim to be scientific regarding  interpretation of dreams.

    

However, there is serious criticism of the scientific status of Freud's work.

   

Karl Popper argued that psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience because its claims are not testable and cannot be refuted; that is, they are not falsifiable.

    

Imre Lakatos later noted: "Freudians have been nonplussed by Popper's basic challenge concerning scientific honesty. 

   

Indeed, they have refused to specify experimental conditions under which they would give up their basic assumptions."

   

Cognitive scientists, in particular, have also weighed in. Martin Seligman, a prominent academic in positive psychology wrote, 

   

"Thirty years ago, the cognitive revolution in psychology overthrew both Freud and the behaviorists, at least in academia. ... 

  

Thinking ... is not just a result of emotion or behavior. ...  Emotion is always generated by cognition, not the other way around."

   

Linguist Noam Chomsky has criticized psychoanalysis for lacking a scientific basis.

   

Steven Pinker considers Freudian theory unscientific for understanding the mind.

    

A list of highly respected people, but although they may be right, Freud has imprinted his ideas on many aspects of 21th century thinking.

    

Thank you for your attention again.....

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)

Sigmund Freud: Traumdeutung (1900)

The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: So....what do you think about dreams and their meaning?

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they can sometimes surely give me ideas for the rest of the day sometimes

[13:25] CB Axel: I frequently wake from a dream and think to myself, "What was THAT all about?"

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sometimes they are just a mess that i forget as soon as i awake just remembering it was some weird mess

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes...me too CB :-)

[13:26] CB Axel: I do that, too, Bejiita.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one strange thing is sometimes a thing from way before comes in that i havent even thought of for eternity

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes you can buy a lot of books today on dream interpretation.....what abot them?

[13:27] CB Axel: Sometimes I remember them in detail.

[13:27] Piovefiore: I have had many strange, intense dream experiences, I think often, though maybe not always, we are working through in dreams whatever is going on in our waking lives

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dreams are usually affected by what have happened during the day

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have to go..the thunder gets worse

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa dont fry the machine

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): better be safe

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont) is offline.

[13:27] CB Axel: My dreams, while entertaining, don't seem to mean anything or help me in any way.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i sometimes use my dreams as ideas for my game projects

[13:28] herman Bergson: I agree CB :-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it helps me with comming up with stuff

[13:28] CB Axel: That's cool, Bejiita.

[13:28] herman Bergson: You seem to be a creative dreamer then, Bejiita :-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what would want to master a bit better in this case however is lucid dreaming (if you can master this at all) to set a main theme for it

[13:28] Piovefiore: I share Beijita's experience, I do get ideas from my dreams, but I have had periods of frequent nightmares as well

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then let the brain run on autopilot to give me ideas

[13:29] CB Axel: I've never tried lucid dreaming.

[13:29] Piovefiore: I share that desire Beijita, in my case mostly to be able to get out of nightmares or experiences like sleep paralysis

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:29] CB Axel: My dreams can be influenced by sounds around me, like if I fall asleep with the radio on.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yeah there is some theory that you can control your dreams.....or so...

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think  i hava managed sometime to do it, control the continuation of it while still dreaming

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think the secret is to be in a sort of half awake state, and i sleep so deep i think its why i rarley can do it

[13:31] Piovefiore: I have become aware of dreaming while in the dream, but I still cannot control the direction the dream will take

[13:31] CB Axel: I've had that same experience, Piovefiore.

[13:31] herman Bergson: I remember it happening once lately...

[13:32] herman Bergson: I was dreaming....woke up somewhat and then wanted the dream to go on....and it did....

[13:32] herman Bergson: But maybe I dreamt that I woke up in the middle of the dream....who knows

[13:32] Piovefiore: :)

[13:33] herman Bergson: And another classic in my dreams is that I am searching for a bathroom :-)))

[13:33] Piovefiore: Like the story of Zhuangzi and the butterfly

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa yes

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): had too much beer?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe

[13:33] CB Axel: I've had that dream. too, Herman.

[13:33] Piovefiore: Yes, I call that false awakening

[13:33] herman Bergson: which is pretty obvious for when I wake up I know what to fdo first :-)))

[13:33] CB Axel: I'm afraid I'll find one in the dream and wake up to find the bed is wet. lol

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool

[13:34] herman Bergson: lol YEs CB...,has been my fear too....lol

[13:34] Piovefiore: Lol

[13:34] herman Bergson: but fortunately that never has happened (yet)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i have been doing that as well, dreaming about what i know is going to happen next morning and thinking im  awake but im not, still dreaming

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very strange experience

[13:34] Piovefiore: Yes, it can be!

[13:34] CB Axel: The only really recurring dream I have is being stuck in mud or some other thick substance and having trouble moving forward.

[13:34] CB Axel: I haven't had that dream since I quit my job.

[13:35] CB Axel: Hmmm

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the higgs field is grabbing you

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:35] CB Axel: LOL

[13:35] Piovefiore: You're not stuck anymore ;)

[13:35] CB Axel nods

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (runs out to get a cement truck, then proceeds with pouring cement all over CB)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUHAHAHAH

[13:35] herman Bergson: My dreams are often about searching my way through buildings....often in search of the bathroom :-)))

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now your stuck

[13:36] Piovefiore: Evil Beijita!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mushahahahah

[13:36] CB Axel: LOL

[13:36] CB Axel: Bad boy, Bejiita!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im a little unpredictable sometimes

[13:36] herman Bergson: BUT.....yet the main point here still is....

[13:37] herman Bergson: do our dreams have a REAL psychological meaning in some manner?

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: they use pictures to express something we process

[13:37] CB Axel: Well, my being stuck seems to.

[13:37] Piovefiore: My guess is some do and some don't, like CB's dream

[13:37] Piovefiore: Yes :)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: its just a way of expression - thats my guess

[13:38] herman Bergson: MY searching for bathrooms seems too to mean something :-))

[13:38] CB Axel: That could be, Ciska.

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it does!

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: u want to get rid of something but you do not want to do it in public ;)

[13:38] CB Axel: Yes, Herman. It means you should avoid drinking liquids before bedtime!

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im not sure at all how it works

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: (would be a classic interpretation)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha yes, stop emptying my beer storage!

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that beer i save for fridays

[13:39] Piovefiore: In humanistic therapies they would ask you to identify in turn with each of the different elements in your dream

[13:39] herman Bergson: that would mean I never would dream anymore, CB....would be a pitty

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Piove...that is th efunny part of dream interpretation.....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: well so you walk through nice buildings while searching the loo?

[13:40] Piovefiore: see what they each have to say, and that what is important is your own experience of it

[13:40] herman Bergson: Freud talks of two ways of dream interpretation....

[13:40] Piovefiore: that is, there is not a right or wrong interpretation, a more phenomenological view

[13:40] herman Bergson: Method one is...

[13:41] herman Bergson: you take the whole dream as a symbolic story....

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (maybe someone uses the next door water tab extensively as soon as you sleep in - that migh trigger he same effect)

[13:41] herman Bergson: that is what Joseph  did with the dreams of the pharao....

[13:41] herman Bergson: the other method he calls the cifer-method....

[13:42] herman Bergson: you take elements in a dream as symbols for something else...

[13:42] herman Bergson: in the bookstore you can find this kind of dictionaries....

[13:42] herman Bergson: for instance...you dream of a bird.....

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: (which leads to the famous "sometimes a knife is just a  knife" quote)

[13:42] herman Bergson: so you look up...bird....etc

[13:43] herman Bergson: ahhh Ciska....

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not heard of that one

[13:43] herman Bergson: and here is indeed the problem.....

[13:43] herman Bergson: there is no methodology here.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: no way to proof these correlations between dream images and real life meanings

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone:               ♥(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ * ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)♥

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone:   «´·.¸¸.•     WELCOME BACK!     •.¸¸.·`»

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone:               ♥(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ * `'·.¸)`'·.¸)♥ 

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like one i read. you are falling = overstressed from work or simething simiar

[13:45] CB Axel: Dream interpretation is fun to play around with, but it isn't scientific. It's like astrology in that way.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or you are chased, = worried missing a deadline (time is chasing you)

[13:45] herman Bergson: How was this realting between (dream) falling and overstressed in work established?

[13:45] Piovefiore: (my apologies, crashed)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things like that

[13:45] CB Axel: wb, Piovefiore.

[13:46] herman Bergson: You still look fine Piovefiore

[13:46] Piovefiore: Ty :)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed cb

[13:46] CB Axel: Well, those correlations could have been coincidence.

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also i find often my horoscope seem to match with is a fun thing

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with what i can epect

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with fortune cookies

[13:46] herman Bergson: You see Bejiita.....this A = B examples  can't be proven by anything....

[13:47] CB Axel: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one i remember after eating with my dance crew after we had an amazing battle, when i opened the cookie it said, "you achieve everything you want"

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes....something like that CB

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed i did that day

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 100% accurate

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a little fun

[13:48] herman Bergson: But you always achieve what you want, Bejiita...and what you didnt achieve you say about...ahh...I actually didn't want that

[13:48] herman Bergson: so such a cookie is always right

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the thing was there was nothing i did not want that day

[13:49] herman Bergson: What a day you had ^_^

[13:49] Piovefiore: Yes! I want a fortune cookie like that ;)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because it was a thing i love to do

[13:50] CB Axel: The blackboard has a typo.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Main point is, that we are discussing interpretation possibility of dreams.....and that is what Freud left us.....

[13:50] CB Axel: Class is at 1 PM not 1 AM.

[13:50] herman Bergson: oh dear.....

[13:50] herman Bergson: thank  you CB

[13:51] Piovefiore: So there will be no class next Thursday?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Ahh before I forget.....that is true....

[13:52] CB Axel: Sure, Freud interpreted dreams, but like you suggested, dreams were being interpreted by fortune tellers.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think it will

[13:52] herman Bergson: Next Thursday you'll fiend my with wife and some friends on the island Schiermonnikoog :-)

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa yes

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok you are going there

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] Piovefiore: :)

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed I will Bejiita

[13:52] CB Axel: I wonder what you'll dream about while you're there. °͜°

[13:53] Piovefiore: Hehe, yes

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some more ideas to the next class

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: That was what just crossed my mind too CB :-)

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aboutdream interpretation or something else

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause this was interesting, as said i often try use things from dreams in my game engines and simiar, basically trying to save them there

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in a computer program

[13:54] herman Bergson: At least I can come to one conclusion.....

[13:54] herman Bergson: unless you suffer form some psychosis just enjoy your dreams...they mean nothing :-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] Piovefiore: :)

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thank you  hermnan

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu around all

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] herman Bergson: Nocturnal amusement they are :-)

[13:55] CB Axel: Exactly.

[13:55] Piovefiore: Thank you, see you in a week :;)

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again...:-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (takes a jackjammer out and knocks all cement off cb

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): )

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: anyone in formore rain?

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BRRRRRRRRRR

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there u go

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Bejiita.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hapy dreaming

[13:56] Piovefiore: You too!

[13:56] herman Bergson: Sweet dreams you all :-)

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: good night ㋡

[13:56] Piovefiore rushes out of the rain

709: The Impact of Sigmund Freud...

The year 1900 isn't necessarily a special year because of its number. Yet it was a special beginning of a new century.

  

In that very year did happen some intellectual developments, which would have an indelible effect on our way of thinking.

   

The first intellectual even makes me think of the effect which Descartes has had on our thinking with his dualism, his body - mind theory.

   

To me it is a real philosophical and scientific mistake, but it had and still has a tremendous effect on our culture.

   

What happened in that year 1900 is on the one hand a continuation of the Cartesian mistake

   

and on the other hand a total revision of the way we see ourselves. We still experience the consequences today.

   

On January 6, 1900 there appeared a book review in a Vienna newspaper. The book that was reviewed was "Die Traumdeutung" (The Interpretation of Dreams) by Sigmund Freud.

   

Don't expect a cheering review. The book was very controversial and even considered to be offensive.

  

For Freud it wasn't a pleasant time either. He was ignored. The neurological Institute of the University of Vienna ceased all contact with Freud.

   

The first edition of the book was 600 copies. After  two years only 228 were sold. After six years only 351 copies were sold.

   

In 1902 however Alfred Adler joined Freud and among others in 1907 Carl Gustav Jung did. Finally in 1908 Freud was a kind of accepted again in the world of scientists.

   

Nevertheless Freud rightly regarded "Die Traumdeutung" as his most important work. 

  

The four basic concepts of his theory about human nature are here for the first time dealt with in their context:

   

the unconscious, repression, infantile sexuality, from which the Oedipus complex arises, and the three layers of the psyche: 

   

the Ego: the self-awareness, the Superego, which can be seen as  our conscience and the ID, the elementary biological expression of the subconscious.

  

For a while Freud himself experimented with hypnosis on hysteria patients. Then he dropped the method 

   

to switch to 'free association', asking the patient to say everything that came into his or her head. 

   

This is how Freud discovered that, if brought into the right situation, people can remember completely forgotten events from their earliest childhood. 

   

He also came to the conclusion that such events, even if they had been forgotten, could work through the later behavior of people. 

   

Thus the concept of the subconscious and of repression was born.

   

Freud also found that the memories that came up with difficulty, with the help of free association, were mostly sexual in nature.  

   

When he also determined that the "remembered" events had not happened at all, he developed the theory of the Oedipus complex. 

   

What came next we'll address in the next lecture, but what is clear already is, that this theory of Freud has had a huge impact on how we see our life....

   

To be continued....thank you again for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

    

[13:14] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:14] Piovefiore: Thank you

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:15] herman Bergson: Just see the impact....

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): immense

[13:15] Faust (faust.saenz): Fascinating!

[13:15] CB Axel: I can't believe in repressed memories when I've seen how easy it is to implant memories in people.

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:15] herman Bergson: even a court takes the history of a juvinile into account

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but there are those who still believe it is a big influence

[13:16] Faust (faust.saenz): 3rd wave therapy takes the idea of subconscious seriously

[13:16] herman Bergson: What about a Post Traumatic Stress Syndrom CB?

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:16] herman Bergson: It is a real thing ...

[13:17] herman Bergson: it happens to people

[13:17] Ciska Riverstone: I guess there is a difference between real experience still and "implanted memory"

[13:17] CB Axel: I'm not talking about PTSD in people who have been through documented stressful situations, but the way people get questioned by police, for instance, can influence how things are remembered.

[13:17] herman Bergson: oh yes...

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very

[13:18] herman Bergson: True CB.....

[13:18] Piovefiore: Yes, it is

[13:18] herman Bergson: there is prove of that....that they remember things..though they never did it

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very interesting story here in CT of Peter Reilly

[13:18] CB Axel: I also believe in the "reptilian brain" and how it can influence people under stress.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): definitely implanted murder of mother

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he never did commit

[13:19] herman Bergson: That is the point CB....

[13:19] herman Bergson: that is where freud changed into Fraud :-)

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:19] herman Bergson: our neurobioological insights makes Freud a fraud

[13:19] Piovefiore: :)

[13:20] CB Axel: You all really should check out The Hidden Brain at hiddenbrain.org.

[13:20] herman Bergson: Bu tit is the same with Descartes...

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: the difficult thing is to keep it all apart  - we can much more differentiate now

[13:20] herman Bergson: what do you mean Ciska?

[13:20] CB Axel: I consider Freud a fraud for the most part, but I equate his id with the reptilian brain.

[13:21] Piovefiore: I am interested in hearing more about Descartes' influence in Freud, and your point of dissent with both

[13:21] herman Bergson: correct CB :-)

[13:21] herman Bergson: If I may say so :-)

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: for example when authority questions someone who is already psychologically challenged - for example lacking attention of others or whatever - that will go different then with a "normal" developed person

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: so you need to take into account both parties in a communication always

[13:22] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: to evaluate that psychologically

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: we know that today - no one thought about it 1900

[13:22] Piovefiore: Also I think Freud made broad generalizations without taking into account the fact that things occur in a context, and in situation

[13:23] herman Bergson: About Descartes...

[13:23] herman Bergson: He introduced the mind - body dichotomy....

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: Yes Pio - he basically speculated to get a generalized picture of some inner process

[13:24] herman Bergson: Freud continued on that by his theory of an Ego, Superego and ID

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:24] herman Bergson: and all of Europe fell for it wile it still was thinking in dualistic terms

[13:25] Piovefiore: Some contemporary psychotherapies would even now contest the division of humans in "inner and outer", and even state that there are no "inner processes"

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: well I guess he must have been one of the first man to talk openly about inner processes in some sort of way

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: that does not make him right ;) - it just makes him a pioneer in trying to describe things

[13:25] herman Bergson: So true Pio and so correct too :-)

[13:26] CB Axel: I like that, Ciska. That could be his main contribution.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): could be

[13:26] Faust (faust.saenz): There are just inputs, processes and outcomes.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Oh yes ciska...he WAS a pioneer....

[13:27] herman Bergson: telling us that we are not just motivated by what we really want...

[13:27] Piovefiore: For Gestalt therapists, for example, everything occurs in what they have called the "contact border" where the organism interacts with the environment, we are seen as inherently relational beings who cannot be conceived of as separate from the environment and other beings

[13:27] CB Axel: That makes us sound like computers, Faust. GIGO

[13:27] Faust (faust.saenz): lol

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:27] Faust (faust.saenz): hopefully there are no ghosts in the machine

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or bugs

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:27] herman Bergson: You are right Faust....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:27] Faust (faust.saenz): :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: But what you forget to mention is the CPU

[13:28] CB Axel: LOL Buggy Brain Syndrome!

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:28] herman Bergson: and the CPU is what makes the difference :-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (attempt to debug CB but gives up as the programming language is one i dont know at moment)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] CB Axel: LOL

[13:29] CB Axel: I think I have my own programming language.

[13:29] CB Axel: No one understands it.

[13:29] herman Bergson: I di :-)

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (note to slf, upgrade CB to Java next time)

[13:29] herman Bergson: do

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:29] CB Axel: hehehe

[13:29] Piovefiore: lol

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so i can hack into your deepest mind and find your lost memories

[13:30] herman Bergson: oh my BEjiita goed Freudian...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however many of freud's ideas have been used and adjusted in psychology of today dont you think?

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] CB Axel: Lost memories are like a program running in the background.

[13:30] herman Bergson: He had a great influence on how we think indeed Gemma

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, sort of

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think so

[13:31] CB Axel: I agree, Gemma. Like id = reptilian brain.

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: in a way he gave us language pictures everyone was familiar with and felt they could use

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or like when you delete something, only the marker to the data is erased, if you can restore it  you get the data /memories back

[13:31] CB Axel: Superego = frontal cortex?

[13:31] herman Bergson: And THAT is the amazing  part of this 20th century we are looking into

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: Could say that CB

[13:32] Faust (faust.saenz): One critique I heard of Freud was that he changed his paradigms from comedy to tragedy.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm

[13:32] Faust (faust.saenz): unnecessarily

[[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:33] Faust (faust.saenz): Gilligan http://www.apadivisions.org/division-39/publications/reviews/pleasure.aspx

[13:33] herman Bergson: There are more critics of Freud, Faust...we'll get to that in the lecture :-))

[13:33] Faust (faust.saenz): Cool

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall look at that later

[13:34] CB Axel: Me, too.

[13:35] CB Axel: It looks very interesting.

[13:35] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:35] herman Bergson: Guess we are done for today..:-))

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman and everyone

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:35] herman Bergson: Unless that major question is stilll burning your soul..

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: if not....class dismissed

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check that one out

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cu next time ㋡

[13:36] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.

[13:36] herman Bergson: and thank you all again for your participation

[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting again! ty herman and class :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:36] Piovefiore: Thank you, see you next time :)