716: What about Edmund Husserl.....?

Who was Edmund Husserl (1859 - 1938) and what about his philosophy, which he called phenomenology?

Philosophy, for Husserl, was not just his occupation. It was of the utmost seriousness to him. 

  

He spoke of it as some men speak of their call to the priesthood or others of their most sacred moral duties. 

  

Were he to waver in his devotion, he would be untrue to himself. Were he to lose faith in philosophy, he would lose faith in himself. 

   

Philosophy, as he committed himself to it, was first and foremost a science. 

  

His conception of this philosophical science changed more than once, but he never wavered in his conviction 

  

that only a body of indubitable and objective truths deserves to be called "science." 

   

The truths he sought do not concern this or that particular subject matter. He sought the truths on which all other human knowledge rests. 

  

Devoted to his pursuit with a moral fervor, he worked steadily throughout most of his long life , publishing eight books or long articles 

  

and writing 45,000 manuscript pages in shorthand, which were found after his death, some of it practically ready for publication, the rest in less finished form. 

   

His search was for the unshakable foundation of human knowledge, which he often referred to as the "Archimedean point.

   

Did he succeed in his efforts? Husserl was especially interested in the relation between consciousness and logic.

   

His main question was: does logic exists objectively outside us, or is it fundamentally depending on our consciousness?

   

In other words do logic and numbers exist in-depended of our consciousness  or are they generated by consciousness?

   

In fact it is a problem as old as philosophy. On the one hand you have the real external world. On the other hand you have our sensory experiences.

   

Through the ages many philosophers came to the conclusion that we can not know this external, material world, but only what shows up in our senses and in our mind.

    

So, the most extreme idea is that we only assume the external existence of a reality and that the real reality only is our consciousness of something.

   

Husserl did not deny the existence of an external reality, but to get to a rock bottom certainty of knowledge, 

   

we had to apply his method of analysis to what appears in our consciousness. He called it the transcendental phenomenological reduction.

   

He created an extensive philosophical theory about what happens in our consciousness and how we can derive absolute certainty from it.

   

I never have understood,  what this would bring us and in the light of present day neuroscience it looks like a superfluous theoretical construct..

  

Phenomenology never really reached the Anglo-American world and has been mainly a continental philosophical school.

     

The French philosopher Merleau-Ponty died in May 1961. As far as I know he was the last great philosopher of the phenomenological school.

    

What has become of phenomenology today, I have no idea, but that may be because I never was a fan of this kind of philosophy.

But I can tell you that in 2006 a society was established to promote phenomenological philosophy in the Netherlands.

   

And this society published quite recently  (january 2018) "Fenomenologie als houding" - Phenomenology as attitude -.

   

Thank you for your attention....^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): seems to me the man was obsessed by this idea of phenomenology

[13:20] herman Bergson: One problem with this kind of philosophy is that it easily confuses psychology and philosophy

[13:20] CB Axel: So there is a reality outside of each of us, but since we can only experience it through our own minds we don't really know it?

[13:20] herman Bergson: Looks like it indeed Beertje....

[13:21] herman Bergson: That is indeed the case, CB

[13:21] herman Bergson: So, rationalist philosophers focused on the mind to find absolute truths

[13:22] CB Axel: Maybe if we connect all of humanities minds together we can understand reality.

[13:22] CB Axel: And maybe animal minds, too.

[13:22] herman Bergson: A typical Cartesian tradition in Europe

[13:22] herman Bergson: It wont solve the problem....

[13:22] herman Bergson: It all depends on the assumption of an external material world...

[13:23] herman Bergson: a materialist says....I am even part of it.....

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were would this world be?

[13:23] CB Axel: So there might not be a world outside of my mind?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Heidegger wrote a book "Die frage nach dem Ding"

[13:24] herman Bergson: Asking for the thing.....that is....what is real....what is there

[13:24] herman Bergson: No world outside your mind......

[13:24] herman Bergson: hmmmm....

[13:24] herman Bergson: First question is....WHERE does your mind exist?

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no idea

[13:25] herman Bergson: Next.....WHERE does this mind come from?

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why do we have a mind?

[13:26] herman Bergson: at least we experience our mind existing in TIME....

[13:26] herman Bergson: and in a way we also have a felling of SOMEWHERE

[13:26] herman Bergson: From an evolutionary point of view we have a mind to help us survive

[13:27] Ruby Rossini is offline.

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is that also for animals and plats?

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): plants

[13:27] herman Bergson: yes, I'd say

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they survive also

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so they have a mind

[13:28] CB Axel: I wish the chicken in the far chair over there would speak up. I'd love to hear her point of view. °͜°

[13:28] herman Bergson: all organisms interact with their environment in the process of survival

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): spinach has a mind?

[13:28] herman Bergson: not in the way we have a mind.....

[13:29] CB Axel: I would think it has a mind the way a jellyfish has a mind.

[13:29] herman Bergson: But plants show very clever ways of interaction to survive

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do they feel pain?

[13:29] herman Bergson: I dont think so.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: that requires nerves

[13:30] CB Axel: Many people think plants feel something like pain.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Some people do indeed

[13:30] herman Bergson: Mowing your lawn is thus in fact massmurder

[13:30] CB Axel: The lovely smell (lovely to us) of newly mown grass is believed to be a distress signal sent out by the grass.

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): strange idea that the world outside doesn't excist, oly in my mind

[13:31] CB Axel: I wouldn't go so far as to call it murder. The grass lives on. °͜°

[13:31] herman Bergson: And what happens when you walk on the grass....?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Is that grass torture?

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:32] CB Axel: Probably.

[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: then are vegetarians, murderers?

[13:32] CB Axel: Yes.

[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins

[13:32] herman Bergson: hehe...Bergie...:-)

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we all are

[13:32] herman Bergson: serial killers even

[13:32] CB Axel: So I wish they'd leave me alone about eating meat!

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm a vegetarian, I only eat meat out of a can

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...but all these statements are based on the assumption that there exists an outside world

[13:33] CB Axel: Isn't that a tinatarian?

[13:33] herman Bergson: A canary

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol, cb

[13:34] CB Axel: If there is no outside world, why am I so worried about paying my bills?

[13:34] CB Axel: I owe, therefore I am.

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is why this kind of philosophy is so unproductive....

[13:35] herman Bergson: A Merleau-Ponty has extensive descriptions of that happens between the observer and the observed....

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what did this man do all day?....didn't he go out or have a drink with his friends?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Husserl?

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: Guess most of the time he was writing

[13:36] CB Axel: He should have stopped writing long enough to go out for a drink or two.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Philosophizing in the German Idealistic way

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i get a picture in my mind of the pale, skinny man who never laughs

[13:36] CB Axel: I philosophize best when I'm just a little tipsy.

[13:36] hannes Breda is online.

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ..handles CB the red wine...

[13:37] CB Axel: LOL

[13:37] CB Axel: thx

[13:38] herman Bergson: Guess we all should continue with a good wine now....:-)

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): good idea Herman

[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: oh yes good idea:-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: There still exist supporters of this kind of philosophy.....

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): would this last?

[13:39] herman Bergson: I suggest we leave them to their Society of Phenomenology

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:39] herman Bergson: I dont know, Beertje.....maybe only is a sense that people study the theories out ofr historical interest

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to me they have very strange ideas

[13:40] CB Axel: I still don't think philosophy can be a science.

[13:40] herman Bergson: If you want strange ideas, then try to read Heidegger :-)

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, I will do that

[13:40] CB Axel: What kind of experiments can be done to prove any of this?

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:41] herman Bergson: Oh  they have invented that CB.....they call it Thought experiments....

[13:41] CB Axel: Thought experiments prove nothing.

[13:41] herman Bergson: You begin with a .....Suppose you are ....etc....

[13:42] herman Bergson: and then the only tool you can use in the experiment is logic

[13:42] herman Bergson: for instance.....a classic one is this......

[13:42] herman Bergson: You step into a teleport machine....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Due to a malfunction you are teleported to another planet, but you also stay at the location you teleported from

[13:43] herman Bergson: Now we have here the classic problem of the Self, personal identity....

[13:44] herman Bergson: Who is who....

[13:44] herman Bergson: am I me here....or am I me on that other planet?

[13:45] CB Axel: I guess if reality only exists in one's mind, then that works.

[13:45] herman Bergson: The problem with Hussel was that he invented all kinds of new words....

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): words no one knows?

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): clever man

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so he was always right

[13:46] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:46] herman Bergson: within his theory maybe yes :-)

[13:47] CB Axel: Within the world inside his mind.

[13:47] herman Bergson: But he never came to a complete coherent system

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): of course not

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there issn't one

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well....we have to make a few assumptions.....

[13:48] herman Bergson: and have the philosophers fight over the truth of the assumptions :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: that is the essential task of philosophy.....

[13:49] herman Bergson: to constantly question our assumptions

[13:50] herman Bergson: But if you have no questions left for the moment we might concludde this clas today :-))

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was a nice class, thank yo Herman

[13:51] CB Axel: Yes. Thank you.

[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....:-)

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

715: Phenomenology...

Today it will be a rather personal almost nostalgic lecture, because I have a special relationship with the subject.

    

The subject of today is Phenomenology and the 'inventor' of it: Edmund Husserl (1859 -1938)

46 years ago I had to do the exam, subject Phenomenology. That meant a two hour lasting questioning by the professor himself.

   

There were two problems to face. One, the examinator would be Professor R. Bakker himself, 

   

the author of the book, which we had to study, "de Geschiedenis van de Fenomenologie" (1969), that is, "The History of Phenomenology" 

and two, I really couldn't make sense of this kind of overly abstract metaphysics.

   

When I was 18, I read Kant, Fichte, Hegel, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche and Sartre and you might think I would have no problem with German philosophy.

   

But during the first three years of my study, almost unaware, I had moved over completely to the empiricist, Anglo-American philosophy.

    

To solve the two problems I was helped by fortune. Professor Bakker fell ill and I immediately made an appointment with the teacher who took over his tasks

   

That teacher was a Kantian, a specialist in German idealism, who of course had knowledge of phenomenology,

but was not the author of that book. Thus I passed the exam easily and on a scale of 0 to 10 I even succeeded in achieving a 7.

  

I had to search all my bookshelves for the book, which I haven't opened in a 45 years. Behind me you see the cover of the book. 

   

The other picture is a page, which shows that I really studied the book of Prof Bakker seriously. Honestly....

   

And the third picture is the happiest moment in my philosophical life: the proof I passed the exam, which meant I could start my specialization in Analytical philosophy.

   

The big question is of course, why couldn't young herman and the actual one too, by the way, digest phenomenology?

   

I mentioned his name already. It all began with Edmund Husserl. In 1972 I participated in a series of tutorial sessions.

    

The subject was the reading and discussing of the book "Philosophie als strenge Wissenschaft" (1911), that is,  "Philosophy as real / strict science"

    

The next quote illustrates neatly how Husserl thought about his philosophy:

  

-QUOTE- Of course, we do not tie our critical analyzes to the more popular reflections of philosophizing natural scientists, 

   

but deal with the scholarly philosophy that appears in truly scientific armaments. 

  

In particular, however, with a method and discipline in which she believes she has finally reached the rank of an exact science. 

  

She is so sure in that, she looks down on any other philosophizing with contempt. -END QUOTE-

   

Next lecture I'll try to explain the ideas of Husserl to you. A fact is that he can be regarded as the founder of the continental School of philosophy,

   

a school with members like Heidegger, Sartre and Habermas and which is largely ignored in the Anglo-American world.

   

Thank you for your attention again.... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:18] herman Bergson: Take your time to think it over ^_^

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): whispers..reading your book....

[13:19] CB Axel: So, phenomenology is philosophy as science?

[13:19] herman Bergson: If any chicken has a question or remark...plz feel free to drop the egg :-)

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:20] herman Bergson: That is what Husserl believed in yes

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how can philosophy be a science?

[13:20] herman Bergson: he believed he  had developed a real scientific method ...something as strict as the methods in physics

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i remember years back right after I joined the class i heard in a lecture by aanother professor that philosophy IS a science

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i mentioneed it at tthe time

[13:21] herman Bergson: Depends on how you define science

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: good memory

[13:21] CB Axel: How does one do a double blind study of people's thoughts?

[13:21] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): before the advent of modern science, i think philosophy was the de facto standard for science.  now that we know more about the natural world and science, philosophy has been replaced

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and how you define philosophy too

[13:22] herman Bergson: I disagree there ashleigh....

[13:22] herman Bergson: the basics of any science is philosophical....

[13:23] herman Bergson: Philosophy is the fundamental wondering, Gemma....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wen something is turned to science there is nothing to wonder about anymore on that subject and tjus not philosophy anymore

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thus

[13:23] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): philosophy was the analysis of things. life, the world, nature, whatever using the analytical mind and the tools of the time. but it also incorporated alot of assumptions.  used religion as a means to explain things that were not well understood.

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:23] herman Bergson: all sciences are based un assumptions about what reality is

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and what is science

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:24] herman Bergson: science is a calculated and reasoned belief system about reality

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will be interesting to hear the next lecture

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): religion = uncertain /supernatural, philosophy = more certain and science = 100 % certain, at least almost

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a loose definition

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is the point Bejiita.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: the difference between religion and science is that science has a method to verify or falsicy its claims about reality

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): philosophy as i get it and you said before can not be 100 % certain

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like science is

[13:25] SarahWhitney: r

[13:25] herman Bergson: No...Philosophy is just the watchdog over it all :-)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:26] CB Axel: So how can philosophy be a science? How do you verify its claims?

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have been trying here for 10 years!!!!!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and still not

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 11

[13:26] herman Bergson: that is....we always have to stay critical and skeptic about every statement which is put forward with 100% certainty as being true

[13:26] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): right the scientific method is what differentiates religion from science and since philosophy does not require the scientific method and incorporates religious thinking in it, it is not science but only a basis for trying to analyze the world that has been surpassed by the scientific method

[13:27] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): philosophy is sort of a middle-point between

[13:27] SarahWhitney: Perhaps not all things can be quantified and measured

[13:27] herman Bergson: Philosophy does not incorporate religion.....it observes it analyses it and so on

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it tries explaining things but nothing is 100% certain

[13:28] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is offline.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Philosophy is not a science....it is an attitude towards reality....the permanent questioning of things

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: But of course that is my opinion :-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is how I see myself

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:30] SarahWhitney: I like that definition.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a good one

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in philosophy there must always be something to question

[13:30] herman Bergson: It is for free Sarah...you may take it with you...np :-)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the point of it

[13:31] SarahWhitney: How could someone possibly categorize philosophy as a science?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well Husserl thought it could be done

[13:32] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): when i say it incorporates religion, i dont mean that religion is a tenet specifically of philosophy. but philosophy is a very basic means to come to an informed conclusion about the nature of something. about the nature of things. and since there is no method for qualification, any answer can be brought forward to explain the nature of something. religion is very often brought forward in philosophy for that purpose. since there is no critical check like the scientific method, a lot of the conclusions throughout the age of philosophical reasoning have included conclusions directly linked with religionand religious ideas.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yet I think philosophy is primarily an attitude and the only tool you have is logic

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true ash

[13:33] herman Bergson: Ashleigh...there is a little sign here which explain outr rules of engagement...:-)

[13:34] herman Bergson: that is true....

[13:35] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): ツ thank you.

[13:35] herman Bergson: A lot of philosophers were scared of religion, that is, th epower of Rome, so the introduced a god always....Descartes did for instance :-)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa that i remember

[13:36] herman Bergson: Spinoza put him out of action and thence was threatened....

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes poor fellow

[13:37] herman Bergson: And today it doesn't matter anymore....

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not even in Islam countries?

[13:37] CB Axel: It does in parts of the US.

[13:38] herman Bergson: It shows in the separation of Church and state for instance

[13:38] CB Axel: What separation?

[13:38] CB Axel: There is separation in name only.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh yes...religion still exists....even religious fanatics...

[13:38] herman Bergson: To some extend indeed CB :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): religion and politics is always a bad combo

[13:38] CB Axel: I'd like to see an atheist get elected to anything in the US.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hence the need to separate them

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you would never know

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they would carry a bible anyway

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and pretend

[13:39] herman Bergson: If a candidate dares to say he is an atheist he is finished in the US

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): politics should be based on facts and actual needs and not the bible or some other religious script

[13:40] herman Bergson: There may be a difference Bejiita....

[13:40] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): im waiting for the day when they dont need to carry a bible with them.

[13:40] herman Bergson: I have no problem with people who derive their motivations from religious beliefs

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i doubt we will see that

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some exaggerate their beliefs

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:41] SarahWhitney: I'm waiting for the day they don't act out of self-interest.

[13:41] herman Bergson: the US president swears on a bible.....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:41] herman Bergson: so silly but it is done

[13:41] CB Axel: I don't mind that either, as long as they don't try to foist their beliefs onto me.

[13:41] CB Axel: Not all presidents use a bible.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:41] herman Bergson: indeed CB

[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol Gemma

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] SarahWhitney: lol Gemma

[13:42] herman Bergson: Also a telephone book perhaps CB?

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bible carrying liar!!!!!!!

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that doll actually makes me feel better

[13:43] SarahWhitney: I can understand that.............:)

[13:43] CB Axel: At least one or two swore on a law book.

[13:43] herman Bergson: WellAhh...makes sense

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they really could use the constitution

[13:44] herman Bergson: they revealed to be atheists AFTER being elected....smart fellows

[13:44] SarahWhitney: Yes, like have to pass a test on it before holding elected office.

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good idea

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:45] herman Bergson: problenm ere is, Ashleigh that the test itself will be political itself in its content

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make Tuesday to hear about phemonology

[13:45] herman Bergson: Oh you will hear about it Gemma :-))

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:46] CB Axel: The test should be a typical 8th grade civics test.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Final  conclusion of today is that I passed that exam in 1972 ^_^

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good on that

[13:46] CB Axel: Yay!

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:46] Quistis Hoorenbeek (quistis.shippe) is offline.

[13:46] SarahWhitney: :-)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): next week i cant be here, gonna help clear out a house at a remote place with no internet connection

[13:46] herman Bergson: So thank you all again for your participation ...

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:46] CB Axel: If the original professor hadn't fallen ill, do you think you would have passed?

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): dont hurt yourself bejiita

[13:47] herman Bergson: Oh my...Bejiita....may the force be with you!

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe i hope so

[13:47] CB Axel: OMG! No internet?

[13:47] herman Bergson: I would have, CB...:-)))

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are you sure Bejiita you can handle no intrnet?

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good the blog is there to catch up on after im back

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: stay strong

[13:47] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): agreed herman. what i meant to be clear was that ill be happy when a candidate can step into office without espousing a religion. whether they are religious or not, that the religious test is gone and people will make decisions using logic regardless of religious affiliation and the masses of people who vote agree that logical thinking i better than religious affiliation.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Think of the religious problems of al smith and John kennedy

[13:48] herman Bergson: I agree ashleigh ^_^

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also likes logic

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)))

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu when im back

[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-))

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: take care bejiita

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and Class!

[13:49] SarahWhitney: tc Bejiita

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Bejiita

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: on

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] CB Axel: Bye, everyone. See you Tuesday and Bejiita on Thursday.

[13:49] herman Bergson: LOL

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))))

[13:49] CB Axel: on

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cute1!!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hwo do you star tthe dance??

[13:50] CB Axel: On

[13:50] CB Axel: /On

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): off

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love it

[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw !!!!!

[13:50] CB Axel: Ah. There I go.

[13:50] SarahWhitney: hahahahah

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha this was a fun thing

[13:50] herman Bergson: lol...what is happening here :-)

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no clue

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats something for you to philosophizing about

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fun tho

[13:50] herman Bergson: Must be the chickens...!

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:51] SarahWhitney: yes!

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ll

[13:51] CB Axel: Just your typical, every day philosophy flash mob.

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): off i go to run a fishing contest

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): on

[13:51] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa cu Gemma

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): got to run too

[13:51] CB Axel: Me, too. Work to do.

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Gemma:-)

[13:51] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): haha

[13:51] herman Bergson: LOL..never seen this in 10 years :-))

[13:51] CB Axel: Bye

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] SarahWhitney: That was cute.  :))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well Ashleigh ...THIS is the Philosophy Class :-)

[13:52] SarahWhitney: Later, everyone......................bye

[13:52] herman Bergson: Bye Sarah

[13:52] ɑsɦℓєɨɢɦ (ashleigh.alderbury): thank you Herman. to be honest i've been here a few times before. its just been a while.

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): once it has to be the first time Herman:)

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: take care sarah

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): off

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone APPLAUDS!!!

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[13:53] herman Bergson: I am sorry Ashleigh  I don't remember all names....

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Ciska:-)

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: phew...what a sensation in class..:-)

[13:54] herman Bergson: enchanting :-))

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was leuk

   

   

714: The Battle between Science and Religion..........

Politically and economically, Britain was the most powerful country in the world in 1900. 

  

It controlled areas in North and Central America, and in South America, Argentina was heavily dependent on the British. 

  

British governors governed colonies in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, and Australia belonged to the dominions. 

  

Large parts of the rest of the world were divided among other European countries: France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, Italy and even Denmark. 

  

The United States already owned the last Spanish colonies in North America and in 1899 they also acquired the Panama Canal Zone.

   

The American appetite for influence would increase. In the world of thought , in the field of philosophy, art and the social sciences and exact sciences, however,

  

the tone was set by Germany at the time, or rather by the German-speaking countries, like Austria. 

  

In Europe Germany was the intellectual heavy weight. Germans were fanatic philosophical system builders with Hegel (1770 - 1831), of course, as the godfather.

   

You could say that in the early years of the 20th century the battle between rationalism and empiricism comes to a conclusion.

   

It is also the battle between science and religion, knowledge and belief, senses and ratio.

  

In those days Vienna was one of the important intellectual centers in Europe. We already have met Sigmund Freud there.

     

Numerous  intellectuals debated about the state of the world in the Vienna coffee-houses. One of them was the writer Hugo von Hofmannstal (1874 - 1929).

   

He saw one important task for the Arts: with its harmonizing ability it could counter the disruptive effects of science.

   

Science, take for instance Darwin's evolution theory, makes every homo sapiens an individual organism among other individual organism, nothing more.

    

It means that the overall cover of a universal truth is affected. Religious believes are questioned by scientific discoveries.

   

As a reaction on these developments we find the philosopher and psychologist German Franz Brentano (1838 - 1917). With his work he tried to find a  scientific way to proof the existence of God.

   

A characteristic observation is, that due to his introspectionist approach of describing consciousness from a first person point of view, on one hand, 

   

and his rigorous style as well as his contention that philosophy should be done with exact methods like the natural sciences, on the other,

    

Brentano is often considered a forerunner of both the phenomenological movement and the tradition of analytic philosophy. 

   

And that describes exactly the philosophical situation in those early days of the 20th century. Brentano was a man of two worlds,

   

on the one hand he studied Aristotle and was well acquainted with Scholasticism, on the other hand he read the British Empiricists, mainly John Stuart Mill, all of whom had a great influence on his work.

     

To complete the picture: Brentano is mainly known for his work in philosophy of psychology.

     

He made important contributions to many fields in philosophy, especially to metaphysics and ontology, ethics, logic, the history of philosophy, and philosophical theology.

   

Thank you for your atterntion again....to be continued...^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:20] herman Bergson: Main idea is that at the beginning of the 20th century the man emancipation of science, freeing itself from religious constraints began

[13:20] herman Bergson: what you see is an abivalent attitude...

[13:20] herman Bergson: on the one hand th idea to proof the existence of god...

[13:21] herman Bergson: on the other  hand strict scientific method is demanded for

[13:21] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scientifically try to proove god in other words?

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how could they proof the existing of God?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Probably, Bejiita

[13:22] CB Axel: Perhaps he just said that he was trying to prove the existence of God. He may have been trying to show people that there is no god.

[13:22] herman Bergson: some say that the pendulum has moved to the other extreme.....now Science has become our religion

[13:23] SarahWhitney: Science seems to have delivered a deep blow to religion

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): science is the only true religion , even if we probably cant explain everything with it yet (dark matter for example)

[13:23] herman Bergson: It has indeed Sarah

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it is actual observable facts in contrast to religios beliefs

[13:24] CB Axel: Calling science a religion is insulting to science, imo. °͜°

[13:24] herman Bergson: YEs Bejiita

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I believe more in such things at least

[13:24] SarahWhitney: Is everything in existence observable?

[13:24] CB Axel: We can't observe dark matter directly.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Well CB....some would say that everything we claim to know is based on beliefs...

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we probably need to figure out the proper way to observe it t least if it is now possible

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed the ony way to detect dark matter is to in an accelerator see that the sum of energy of the colliding beams dont ad upp, energy is missing = dark matter observed

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats at least how CERN explains it

[13:26] CB Axel: Yes. You can't see dark matter. You can only see its effect on other things.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:26] SarahWhitney: And we can only observe and measure through our senses, is this perhaps too limiting?

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like all galaxies spin to fast to hold together if there is not 900% more matter there then we cant detect

[13:27] herman Bergson: At least the beliefs we base our knowledge on ar ecalculated beliefs...axioms which lead to true statements

[13:27] SarahWhitney: I'm only good for questions, lol

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all math but no real observations

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however math dont lie

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the language of nature

[13:27] FrannyDJ Dean is online.

[13:27] herman Bergson: THAT, Bejiita is one of our typical beliefs....

[13:27] herman Bergson: good example

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how they calculated the higgs boson must be what gves everything mass and the LHC prooved it to be correct

[13:27] CB Axel: Our senses are limited, but we do enhance them. Like using radio telescopes, etc.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Is the world mathematical...?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes CB, but some will say that we only see what we contructed into those machines

[13:28] SarahWhitney: Isn't mathematics a tool?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well you can calculate everything , like physical laws ect

[13:28] CB Axel: True, Herman.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and simulate it in a computer

[13:28] herman Bergson: Mathematics is magic Sarah...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Let me explain

[13:29] herman Bergson: I'll wait till Bejiita is done

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if math would not work that way computers would be useless, for example this Unreal engine program can use math to accurately and realistic simulate any physical law so that a game seems like the real world

[13:29] herman Bergson: the magic is this....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if it yet cant do it as good as in the movie Ready Player 1

[13:29] herman Bergson: hello Bejiita...plz!

[13:30] herman Bergson: could you stop for a moment?

[13:30] herman Bergson: thnx :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: the magic for me is this....

[13:31] herman Bergson: on  the one hand we have the real word...external to our senses.....our first belief....philosophers have been fighting over this stement/assumption for centuries

[13:31] herman Bergson: on the other hand you have mathematics.....

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: where does that come from?

[13:32] SarahWhitney: abstract thinking?

[13:32] herman Bergson: the only thing I can conclude is that it is generated and created by our brain

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): math to me is a way to describe with values how different things relate

[13:32] herman Bergson: and here comes the magic.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: for some reason.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: when we apply thig thing we callmathematics to our sensory observations , they match!

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: We can calculate a trajectory of a rocket....pure math

[13:33] herman Bergson: that is so fascinating...

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we might have invented math but the relations are already there, we just created a language to descripe them

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and how they relate

[13:34] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita. I agree.

[13:34] SarahWhitney: yes, I agree Bejiita

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its cool for sure

[13:34] herman Bergson: I still do not understand this relation....but it is the main tool of science

[13:34] herman Bergson: take statistics.....there you see how this tool is abused and used....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Facebook sends you personalized ads based on statistics....

[13:35] herman Bergson: on mathematical calculations

[13:35] herman Bergson: the calculation says 87% with that characteristic like blue clothings

[13:35] herman Bergson: and there you get your ad :-)

[13:36] CB Axel: A tree was a tree before we called it a tree. And E = MC ^2 was the how energy and mass are the same before Einstein came up with the equation.

[13:36] herman Bergson: I disagree here CB....

[13:37] herman Bergson: A tree is indeed a tree...what ever you call it....but one day we may discover that it is just more then just a tree organism....

[13:37] herman Bergson: and Einstein wasnt right in an absolute sense.....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Like Einstein showed that Newton wasn't right in an absolute sense

[13:39] SarahWhitney: He thought everything was relative?

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is a bit broad statement Sarah

[13:39] SarahWhitney: I know  :)

[13:40] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is offline.

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): .)

[13:40] herman Bergson: where you are obliged to explain what you mean with relative :-)

[13:40] SarahWhitney: and we'd need a definition of absolute

[13:40] herman Bergson: or is  meant BY relative?

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes..then I say means always true

[13:41] herman Bergson: and you say

[13:41] herman Bergson: what do you mean by TRUE

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this is one example of how true math is, a computer calculated what caused the disaster in this film before we even knew they had a connection, a later experiment prooved the effect

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgzC4wYn_3g

[13:41] herman Bergson: and so on.....:-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Kngs cross fire

[13:42] herman Bergson: But that IS the philosophical attitude....

[13:42] herman Bergson: We HAVE to keep going on asking such questions

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:43] SarahWhitney: Like can language encompass reality

[13:43] herman Bergson: oh yes....

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:43] herman Bergson: semantics

[13:43] SarahWhitney: and if we can not think it verbally can we express it in any way.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): language is a way for us to describe things

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and communicate

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the base blocks are already all around us

[13:44] herman Bergson: well...in some fields the world is described in mathematical language

[13:44] SarahWhitney: And in a sense math is a language?

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id say so

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a good example is fractals, we see them all in nature and they are based on complex math

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of repeating patterns

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes math is a language in itself, but not a descriptive language is

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Bach used math for his music

[13:45] CB Axel: Are they? Or is our math based on explaining fractals?

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there is more to math then fractals

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another very important use of math is to define how well materials will hold, what forces act and in wich directions

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so that buildings dont collape, plane crash ect

[13:47] herman Bergson: ,

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is math the new religion?

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thats all the physics of nature at play

[13:47] herman Bergson: no Beertje..not at all

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not a religion i would say

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe the bible of mother nature can be a math book

[13:47] herman Bergson: However.....some people have a strong belief in computer models, which are mathematical procedure driven things

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes and they seem to hold up very good

[13:48] herman Bergson: So indirectly....you may have apoint Beertje :-))

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like in that example i showed before

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:49] CB Axel: Religion was created to explain the natural world as was math.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Well, guess we can go on forever and over like  this :-)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it the computer based on all the data it had knew there had to be a connection and it prooved to be true in the end

[13:49] CB Axel: It's just easier to prove the math than religion.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes CB....and science begins to take over at the start of the 20th century

[13:50] CB Axel: I hope it finishes taking over soon.

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i guess the church didn't like that at all

[13:50] herman Bergson: To put it in a simple way...not Genesis but Darwin tells us how it all began

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:50] herman Bergson: It still doent like it Beertje....

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i agree more with darwin for sure

[13:51] herman Bergson: Science created birth control by a pill...the church didn't like it

[13:51] herman Bergson: birth

[13:51] CB Axel: The church is famous for trying to suppress science.

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed it is CB...has a long long history...

[13:52] herman Bergson: If it was for the church the earth was still flat :-))

[13:52] SarahWhitney: because with science the bible can only be considered metaphorically

[13:52] SarahWhitney: if at all

[13:52] herman Bergson: a way out Sarah, indeed

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well, I guess we now all see what happened at the begining of the 20th century and why the world now is as it is in this respect...

[13:54] herman Bergson: Time to move on to the next lecture ^_^

[13:54] herman Bergson: But that will be next Thursday ^_^

[13:54] herman Bergson: So...thank you all for your participation...

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:54] CB Axel: OK! I'll see you all then.

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Dankjewel Herman

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....:-))

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa we do

[13:55] SarahWhitney: Good discussion

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting! many thanks! herman and Class

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten, God natt :)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now im gonna create some cool math physics simulation i guess

[[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:55] Guestboook van tipjar stand: SarahWhitney Resident donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu around

[13:55] herman Bergson: Do so Bejiita and get a Nobel prize :-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill keep at it

[13:55] SarahWhitney: :)

[13:55] SarahWhitney: Bye for now

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said i think its really interesting stuff

[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Sarah

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight all