730: On whose Shoulders are we standing... ?

Good to see you all again after, I hope, an enjoyable and pleasant vacation.

  

I think, that it is not a bad thing to refresh our memory and have an other look at the present theme of our project.

   

What was it that kept us busy before we went on vacation. Ok, it was the 20th century. And we are wondering on whose shoulders we are standing.

   

Why seems that 20th century to be so special? Maybe you remember the main thought: speed of change.

   

When we look at the evolutionary history of man, we see that changes first took millions of years, 

   

then ten thousands of years, then centuries. And in our time serious changes take place within decades or even less.

   

The remarkable thing about the 20th century is not only that the stream of discoveries became a deluge, 

but also that so many fundamental discoveries have been made in many fields

like physics, cosmology, chemistry, geology, medicine, biology, paleontology, archeology and psychology. 

It also belongs to the striking historical coincidences that most of them, like the electron, the gene, the quantum and the subconscious, were done in or around 1900.

It looks like, that we learned more in one century than in all preceding centuries together and the pivot of it all is science.

  

What makes the 20th century differ from previous centuries is in the first place, 

that until well over a hundred years ago, science consisted of highly disparate disciplines and did not deal with elementary issues. 

Fundamental research developed since 1900 in many fields of science 

and more important there grew cohesion and unity in the scientific narrative about nature.

As we shall see, this narrative tells both about the evolution of the universe and the earth itself with its continents and oceans, 

about the evolution of life and about the distribution of the human species over the planet, about the different races with their various civilizations. 

   

And in less than a 50 years our world has changed into a universe of communication, information and big data.

   

In this project our focus in not primarily on the atrocities, wars, terrorism and crises of the 20th century

   

but on the intellectual and cultural developments, which have been the roots of our way of looking at our life and world today,

   

so that we might better understand the past and maybe our future too.

     

I wish you all a Happy New Year. Thank you for your attention.... 

The Discussion

   

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Happy new year

[13:21] herman Bergson: So we are back  in business again. I'd say :-))

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): brb

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thinks the speed of change in sources of communication might also change the philosophical views in different ways we don't even see yet

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:22] CB Axel: I wonder if some of the speed of change is just because the population is so much larger.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but maybe the generation now growing up in it for the first time wil define it

[13:23] herman Bergson: There is already a huge cultural exchange going on.....

[13:23] CB Axel: There are more people to think about new things.

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:23] herman Bergson: and to spread the new ideas too

[13:23] herman Bergson: But we also see clashing cultures due to this situation....

[13:24] CB Axel: Also, the time saving inventions like cars and clothes washers and stoves, etc give people more time to work on things other than hunting and gathering food.

[13:24] CB Axel: Etc

[13:24] herman Bergson: We still have to deal with the predictions of Huntington.....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Internet makes fast global and free communication possible as well

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes indeed CB....ti gives room to emancipation....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): free except for the ISP fee

[13:25] CB Axel: The internet has certainly made a huge difference.

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): back

[13:25] CB Axel: Scientists from all over the world can share ideas.

[13:25] CB Axel: wb, Beertje

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and without it we would not have SL either

[13:25] herman Bergson: I really wonder what the real consequences are of the Internet for our world

[13:26] CB Axel: Like most things, the internet has good and bad consequences.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right that is mainly what i meant

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: Think of cyber warfare....influencing democratic elllections....destroying social systems

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with my first comment

[13:26] Hope (naskiff): A big channel that everyone cares about to keep it clean, but so easy to poison.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Indeed Hope

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed its easy to spread lot of goop through it

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): viruses, DDOS attacks, spam ect

[13:27] herman Bergson: But it also has Wikipedia...access to a huge plethora of knowledge...etc

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and general bulshit talk and hate as well

[13:27] CB Axel: If you can trust what you read on Wikipedia

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but also access to beautiful art

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): internet is just a data transfer system, it is not selective and we dont want it to be cause that would mean doing like china and censor it completley

[13:28] herman Bergson: It is like with everything man invents, it seems....

[13:28] CB Axel: Right, Bejiita.

[[13:28] herman Bergson: Man invented a hamer....

[13:28] herman Bergson: you can use it on nails....but also on the head of your neighbor

[13:28] CB Axel: Each individual needs to learn how to filter what they read online.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hammer can be both a tool and weapon, same with knoves and even power tools

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): knives

[13:29] herman Bergson: or atoms :-)

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are also not selective, its what the user do with it that matter

[13:29] CB Axel: Guns are the only thing I can think of that's used only for killing.

[13:29] herman Bergson: So, I guess the world debate should be on ethics primarily

[13:30] herman Bergson: No no CB...you can use them for hunting tooo :-)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i use guns for fun only though (shoot clay pigeons with some frieds at work sometimes)

[13:30] herman Bergson: or sports

[13:30] CB Axel: Hunting is killing.

[13:30] Hope (naskiff): Guns are also used for the -threat- of killing

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:30] CB Axel: But I'll give you sports. They can be used just for target practice.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): primary use for weapon is to kill others indeed

[13:30] herman Bergson: Still I think, I guess the world debate should be on ethics primarily

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa yes its great fun to make a little noise now ant then

[13:30] Hope (naskiff): If someone attacks you and you have a good weapon, you won't need to use it at all to be left alone.

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well not originally bejita

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): friday salute

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BLAM BLAM

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hunting

[13:31] herman Bergson: we should be in a permanent moral debate with each other

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im getting kid of good at it now these clay pigeons i can say, its not too often we do it but has at least been 2 times this summer

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:32] CB Axel: Morals are tricky. What's moral to one person is immoral to another.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Did you notice what I suggested?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes CB....

[13:32] Hope (naskiff): It was vague for me.  Do you have examples of moral debates? ^^

[13:32] herman Bergson: And that is caused by what people believe....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Hope....

[13:33] herman Bergson: the president of the US was called AMORAL today

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he if anyone is

[13:33] herman Bergson: An other example is the problem of religious believes

[13:33] Hope (naskiff): Are you saying that, gasp, the news said something bad about the president?  I'm shocked.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:34] CB Axel: Fake news. So sad.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Muslims like to kill non muslims.....christians prefer not to kill others

[13:34] Hope (naskiff): There are so many things about Muslims that the rest of us generally disagree with, it's not even just about killings

[13:34] CB Axel: Christians say they prefer not to kill others.

[13:35] herman Bergson: The news just quoted some report, which was published in the NewYork Times

[13:35] CB Axel: Yes, Hope, but things about Muslims that I don't like I can usually say about Christians, too.

[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Hope....

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ture

[13:35] CB Axel: Religious canon law is religious canon law.

[13:35] Hope (naskiff): I'm curious of what you have in mind

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true even

[13:35] herman Bergson: So...the moral debate on this world still has a long way to go....

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to find out in what story all mankind is willing to believe sothat everyone can live in peace together

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wait til the moral debate on space really gets going

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): space control or not

[13:37] Hope (naskiff): I don't completely agree, Herman

[13:37] herman Bergson: We already had such a debate on the ownership of the North and South Pole, Gemma

[13:37] Hope (naskiff): I think we don't need to find what we should all believe in...  I think we all need to let some things go and agree that we will never know, and that it's ok to not know.

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:37] CB Axel: I can agree with that, Hope.

[13:38] CB Axel: I just don't think it will happen.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think it is partly true Hope

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but

[13:38] herman Bergson: But the conviction that we can not know certain things is also a belief.....which you accept or do not accept

[13:38] CB Axel: There are too many people who will try to get ahead by exploiting people's beliefs.

[13:39] Hope (naskiff): Ha, that seems like a fair point Herman. ^^

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: The idea that we should have/believe in a narrative about existence

[13:39] Hope (naskiff): And yes, people want to believe  in something and others want to use that...  I think it will take a long time for people as a whole to let go of this need to trust in a source for "the truth".

[13:40] herman Bergson: which is shared by all mankind.....read Yuval Noah Harari's book

[13:40] herman Bergson: Sapiens, A brief history of Humankind

[13:41] herman Bergson: I agree with you Hope, that knowledge has its limits....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:41] herman Bergson: Our knowledge is also only just one narrative about reality....

[13:42] herman Bergson: and these days the scientific narrative is gaining territory...

[13:42] herman Bergson: which conflicts with religions

[13:42] herman Bergson: Still a long way to go

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for me science is as good as =  truth cause here we have possibility to proove that something is really a certai way

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich you cant with say religion believing in things like magic and supernatural things

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): impossible to  prove

[13:43] herman Bergson: We agree on that Bejiita.....BUT...

[13:43] Hope (naskiff): Science is a bit in an unfortunate spot.  Those who try to make progress for science try to move it forward, but those who read the papers don't have first hand experience and need to doubt or have faith in what they've read and the competence and ethics of the scientists.

[13:43] herman Bergson: this presupposes ONE way of gaining knowledge....

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Hope....

[13:44] herman Bergson: If you ask an audience....

[13:44] herman Bergson: Is the scientific method THE method to achieve certain knowledge...?

[13:45] herman Bergson: Daniel Dennett did ask his audience....

[13:45] Hope (naskiff): It's certainly a good one, when it's respected. ^^

[13:45] herman Bergson: Don't expect a 100% YES from the audience....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have i seen a ghost, or god. no, have i seen the higgs boson? YEs

[13:46] herman Bergson: To give you an alternative source of knowledge...so often used....FEMALE INTUITION ^_^

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ad those who claimed they have ssen ghosts or god have probably dreamt it

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats me

[13:46] herman Bergson: People  believe that you can know things for certain  based on intuition....

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] Hope (naskiff): It's obviously dangerous to have faith in these things as well

[13:48] herman Bergson: But that is because you believe in another method of achieving knowledge, Hope

[13:48] Hope (naskiff): Mmmm...  in my case, it's more that I'm skeptical about everything.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Some use astrology

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): horoscopes

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tarot

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes....or tarot cards

[13:49] herman Bergson: or tealeaves :-))

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): strangely my horoscope usually match whats going on during the day, the issu is every paper ect have a different one

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no probably just lucky matching

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with fortune cookies

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh goodness

[13:49] herman Bergson: I guess you live multiple lives Bejiita :-))

[13:50] herman Bergson: To match all your newspaper horoscopes

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and he doubts thousands of years of religion !!!!!!!

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i remembered after a day of dance battles when we wehtn to eat at a place after my cookie read " you reach everything you have wanted"

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i did for sure that day

[13:50] CB Axel: Here's a cute cartoon of the scientific method...

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] Hope (naskiff): I think this is all a dangerous train of thought...  you seem to be arguing that, at least science is better than tarot cards...  I think this isn't a good point of view.  Nothing deserves that you give it faith.  Science is better, but you still need to maintain a healthy doubt because of all the variables.

[13:51] herman Bergson: I'll put it on the wall here CB

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): likes that cb

[13:51] Hope (naskiff): That's pretty awesome. ^^

[13:51] CB Axel: I'm a firm believer in cookies.

[13:52] CB Axel: Not the fortunes in them. Just the cookies. °͜°

[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Hope, that is a common argument against science....we can not know everything by science.....

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: But the next step in the argument is WHAT?

[13:52] herman Bergson: that we have other faculties that produce knowledge?

[13:53] CB Axel: The good thing about science is, that when we learn something new we change our beliefs. Religion doesn't allow that.

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:53] herman Bergson: or ..that we simply have to say...just STOP...WE DO NOT KNOW....

[13:53] CB Axel: For the most part, religion doesn't allow change.

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is knowledge?

[13:53] Hope (naskiff): My argument isn't so much that we can't know everything by science.  It's that scientists need to be paid, they need to publish papers that will be seen as interesting, they are sometimes willing to perform tests with as few as 2! test subjects, or ignore the scientific method.  Then in some cases there is also consensus science, which should not exist.

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): probably maybe

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what does it really mean?

[13:54] CB Axel: Hope, that's why peer review is so important.

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to go get ready to host a fishing contest now

[13:54] herman Bergson: I know what you are pointing at Hope....

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Gemma

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and bye for now

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] herman Bergson: a lot of replication researches in social sciences produce contraditing results with the original research...

[13:55] herman Bergson: so here is room for debate....

[13:55] Hope (naskiff): Peer review is important, and it has been pushed aside for a few reasons...  and they seem to be trying to make  it a viable way to spend time again, but it will never be perfect.  Scientists are people too and they need money, and free time.

[13:55] CB Axel: Unfortunately, too many people look at an original paper and don't check back to see if the research has been duplicated.

[13:55] herman Bergson: and to answer your question Beertje.....

[13:55] herman Bergson: yes CB....

[13:56] CB Axel: True, Hope. That's why we all have to remain skeptical and demand peer review.

[13:56] herman Bergson: You could say that knowledge is a set of statements which are intersubjectively accepted based on their testable quality

[13:56] Hope (naskiff): There seem to be a lot of journals that don't publish duplication tests because those are uninteresting. So people are encouraged to test new theories instead.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Oh yes , Hope, so true.....a serious problem these days....

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you don't know what is fake or true sometimes thats a problem

[13:57] herman Bergson: and there is a serious debate going on about it in the world of science

[13:58] CB Axel: If those journals do that because they're afraid to lose readers, then we, as the readers, need to make sure they know they'll lose us if they don't publish duplication tests.

[13:58] Hope (naskiff): It's a great thing that it's a conversation taking place now at least

[13:58] herman Bergson: I agree, Hope

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:59] herman Bergson: A lot of so-called scientific facts in psychology and economy have been falsified....

[13:59] Hope (naskiff) nods.

[13:59] herman Bergson: So there is hope.... :-)

[14:00] Hope (naskiff): ^^

[14:00] Hope (naskiff): There is

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i hope so

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:00] herman Bergson: There is a growth of knowledge

[14:00] herman Bergson: Well...as I said at the start of our discussion...we are back in business...

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your great participation again....

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki cu around

[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[14:01] Hope (naskiff): That was fun. :)

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[14:01] CB Axel: Good discussion. Thank you, Herman and everyone. °͜°

[14:01] herman Bergson: Thank you, Hope

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time to attend another event with well suitingly enough, back to school theme

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[[14:01] Hope (naskiff): Thank you all~

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have to go now...see you all soon and goodnight

[14:01] herman Bergson: Tell your friends and invite them too

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

[14:01] CB Axel: See you all Thursday.

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[14:01] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje]

[14:01] CB Axel: Oops. Tuesday.

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye bye

729: Trump Explained.....

Last Saturday Leonie Breebaart, philosopher and editor of the newspaper I read every day wrote an article in which she explained what is the case with Donald Trump.

Because this is the last lecture of this academic year for us, I thought it would be fun to share it with you. The following text is hers.

If I added something it will be between [ .... ]. So...here we go :-)

How deep can a world leader sink, diplomatically?

   

That after a summit, after you have already signed a treaty, from the airplane, through a tweet makes clear that you withdraw that signature again - because you feel insulted? 

  

Not a day goes by where Donald Trump does not offend people, or worse, but the sample of fuck-you behavior 

  

that he demonstrated at the beginning of this month after the G7 in Canada, again urgently raised the question 

   

of how it is possible for this president to be still supported by a substantial part of the Americans

   

and why his blunt style and its possible consequences have so little influence on his popularity. 

   

It gradually becomes a personality cult. In that respect, it is not surprising that the American and the North Korean leader seem to understand each other so well. 

  

Whatever the case, the Trump clan is less interested in Trump's ideas and plans than in his image of a strong man, who does exactly what he wants. 

   

Another decade ago, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman called humiliation the most underestimated factor in international politics. 

  

He was primarily referring to the hatred of young Muslims who, rightly or wrongly, feel humiliated by the West. 

   

But also the less violent cult around Trump is probably best explained by the fact that his whole appearance, personality 

  

and last but not least, his tweets give expression to the feeling with which the humiliated American can compensate for his loss of status, 

  

for example by marrying a far too young and beautiful woman, 

  

and not giving a shit about the impression you leave behind for all those arrogant know-it-all types who think they are better than him. 

     

The humiliated American, who is he? 

   

In particular the white American. 

   

The Atlantic reported this Spring that research from the University of Pennsylvania shows that Americans voted less for Donald Trump 

   

for economic reasons and more often because they believed that "white Americans would become a minority in their own country." 

   

That fear of a humiliating loss of status compensated these voters by thinking more negatively about other population groups, and also about countries such as China. 

  

That explains a lot. 

   

It is precisely Trumps' unprecedented blunt behavior towards minorities and towards other world leaders that gives it all a certain logic.

   

Trumps also tries to nullify everything that Obama, [the non-white American!], has achieved: the Iran deal, the new health care system, the environmental agreements. 

  

Because, if his predecessor, Obama, in his turn, stood for something, then it was for the type of man, that the older white American had never before considered a serious possibility. 

   

What a loss of status. Trump as avenger of the humiliated. It is of a huge sadness and dangerous, moreover. 

  

What the president achieves for the Americans, let alone for the North Koreans, or for the world peace, his fans are hardly interested. 

   

As long as he gives the losers the feeling of being great.

   

[ And didn't Trump say it himself. He declared his own country a looser by his slogan "To make America great again" 

  

and thus he put himself on the thrown as the King of the Losers. What a sadness indeed. ]

Thank you for your attention..^_^ 

The Discussion

   

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very astute

[13:19] oola Neruda: nods

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:20] Hope (naskiff): Same old reasoning, I suppose...

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): King of Losers..what a title

[13:20] CB Axel: I hope they still feel great when their hair falls out and their gums bleed after a nuclear war.

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and now he finally will meet with his most admired...... Putin

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trumps fanclub is in other words  all a bunch of racist loosers

[13:20] CB Axel: Losers

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thats a sad thing for sure

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many of them are bej

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not all

[13:20] CB Axel: It's spelled losers. °͜°

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but many

[13:21] herman Bergson: One thing is evident....

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you CH:)

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any way trump and his folowers have to go

[13:21] oola Neruda: money is one of the factors.... look who is winning... the ultra rich...the corporations

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): CB

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause they create a world wide mess of hate and chaos

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:21] CB Axel: What white men don't realize, or don't want to realize, is that they have NEVER, EVER been the majority in the US.

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Bergie!

[13:21] herman Bergson: only the white evangelicals (81%) voted for trump

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi bergie

[13:21] bergfrau Apfelbaum: halliehello Herman and Class:-) sorry i am late ... my son was here

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Bergie ㋡

[13:21] Hope (naskiff): If Trump followers have to go, how do you propose that it happens?

[13:21] herman Bergson: 78% of the black evangelicals didn't

[13:22] CB Axel: Hi, Bergie.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea unfortunatley

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and many of them still accept his personal stuff because he is getting what they want

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some are awakening

[13:22] Hope (naskiff): Does anyone have a suggestion?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Just wait Hope....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): work hard to elect a different house of representatives in November

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one

[13:22] oola Neruda: big, big koch brothers money is behind him as well

[13:23] herman Bergson: I give Trump 6 month to go.....

[13:23] CB Axel: Educate Americans. Get them to stop making stupid people famous. And vote, dammit!!!

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not sure the kochs really like him

[13:23] oola Neruda: heritage foundation and others

[13:23] herman Bergson: if he is lucky it might be 8 months....

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is hope herman

[13:23] Hope (naskiff): Education would be good.  For this, you need to help the poor.  That means blacks, latinos, "rednecks", to give them better education opportunities.

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and hope in the investigating committee

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i said before, first time i heard trumps rants i thought "no worries they will have that one locked up forever in some asylum soon"#

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i was wrong

[13:24] CB Axel: We need to teach critical thinking.

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they will be able to prove what a liar and crook he really is

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:24] herman Bergson: A 28 year old Latina won the primaries in New York...!

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i could se this immediatley so why couldnt they?

[13:25] CB Axel: I am SOOOO hoping that Mueller is finding all kinds of crimes Trump has done that can be prosecuted by the stage of New York and others.

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and I dont even live in US

[13:25] herman Bergson: With the most left of left ideas ever....among which free healthcare for everyone!

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:25] CB Axel: Yes, Herman. Wasn't that great!!!

[13:25] herman Bergson: Terrific...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i saw the signs of an Adolf Hitler V2 directly

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actualy tho so was her opponent

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was NOT a bad guy

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or something similarly horrible

[13:25] herman Bergson: and no worries...CB...Müller WILL find the crimes

[13:26] herman Bergson: and if he doesn't succeed Avenatti will :-))

[13:26] oola Neruda: the hitler parallels are what bother me

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but for her precincts not the righht on

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too oola

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so evident!!!!!!

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he is maybe not THAT evil but

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is definitely a facist!!!

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the first image i got from him was UUUUUH!

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): UH OH!

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like that

[13:26] herman Bergson: Bejiita..Trump is a clear cut White Supremacist

[13:27] herman Bergson: that is so obvious

[13:27] oola Neruda: yes

[[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:27] CB Axel: And he thinks that because he has a nice apartment that it makes him great.

[13:27] CB Axel: smh

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and now the supreme court has upheld to a certain extent his ban on certain countries

[13:27] Hope (naskiff): Personally I started thinking that we can't be friends with all nations when this happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

[13:27] herman Bergson: lol...did you see that CB?

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or he might be just that bad, in any case he have made some really awful stuff

[13:27] herman Bergson: And he too was smarter he said....

[13:27] CB Axel: The SCOTUS is about to get worse. :(

[13:28] CB Axel: SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the US.

[13:28] herman Bergson: who is scotus?

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i heard yesterday that for all his complaining about the money the special counsel investigation is costing it is less than WE have paid for his Florida trips

[13:28] herman Bergson: Ahh...

[13:28] CB Axel: Sorry.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least he seemed to have calmed a global nuclear war down or have he (North Korea)

[13:29] CB Axel: Really, Gemma?

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: all democrats and half of the republicans voted against the law you were so upset about last week herman

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes!!

[13:29] CB Axel rolls her eyes

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: (I read it today in die zeit)

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but what he have done to all those children is unforgivable!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and that is still not really settled

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they will probably never see their parents again

[13:30] Hope (naskiff): What would have been a better option for this children thing?

[13:30] CB Axel: What do sexual assaults in Germany have to do with Trump?

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oola did i give you one of these??????

[13:30] herman Bergson: No...terrible matter

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it helps

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:30] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hatred of muslims

[13:30] herman Bergson: Keep the kids with their parents...

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): AAAAAARGGGHH TRUUUUUUMP!!!!

[13:30] oola Neruda: one of ???[,

[13:30] Hope (naskiff): Not hatred, but being careful about who you let in.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Dont criminalize immigrants...

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): TRUE

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: and hope - look in today's die zeit for how many refugees go to other eu countries now

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): AND ALSO wHY CANT WE JUST ALL BE HUMAN?

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the trump doll

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what i want

[13:31] oola Neruda: oooh

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: greece is supportive and takeing up more refugees

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause thats what we are in reality all the same

[13:31] CB Axel: Hope, crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor. Throwing them in jail is not what we do for misdemeanors.

[13:31] oola Neruda: love that

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: plus all in all the crime statistics do go down in Germany

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: since 3 years

[13:31] Hope (naskiff): Mmm well I agree they should just be sent out.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they just want to survive, if it rained bombs where you lived would you not flee to some other place?

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:32] roos Gartner is offline.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): safer

[13:32] CB Axel: Not to mention, that the conditions those people are fleeing were very likely caused by the US interfering in their governments.

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: they will be distributed in the eu differently

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is very true too

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the past

[13:32] oola Neruda: the place that gives me the creeps is Budhapest

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: greece backs that up now fully

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): us supported teh wrong issues in central america

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and caused some of these conditions that they are trying to escape

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats also true

[13:33] herman Bergson: The US supported commercial interests

[13:33] oola Neruda: we should be supporting efforts in those countries to help make it safe for people to live there

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of course

[13:33] CB Axel: I agree, oola.

[13:33] oola Neruda: instead of just exploiting them for minerals, oil and whatever

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is how do you top an ongoing war?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): stop

[13:34] CB Axel: But instead we start trade wars.

[13:34] herman Bergson: indeed oola

[13:34] Hope (naskiff): We definitely should, but the US can hardly take care of its people right now, that makes a lot of well-meaning ideas risky.

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): every  cent of our so called tax relief wil go to pay for the tariff results

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Syria is all but wiped out from the face of the planet and those who have survived have all fled from the place, over 500000 are dead

[13:34] herman Bergson: What do you mean Hope?

[13:34] CB Axel: Our people would be taken care of if the money was properly distributed.

[13:35] oola Neruda: and it is worse in the us now because the richest have even more of the percentage of money and POWER

[13:35] CB Axel: Trickle down economics doesn't work.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money is indeed a big issue

[13:35] CB Axel: It never has. It never will.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause EVERYTHING is not money!

[13:35] Hope (naskiff): I mean the poor can't even afford basic healthcare and education, and it was even worse during Obamacare.  Some farmers used to be poor enough to be eligible for food stamps, I don't know if that has changed yet.

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): teachers were eligible then too hope

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but every year of Obama administration things were coming back!!!!

[13:36] CB Axel: The Walton family (Wal-mart) is stinking fucking rich, but their employees have to apply for food stamps just to shop at Wal-fucking-mart!

[13:36] herman Bergson: YEs Hope...serious issues in one of the richest countries of the world.....!

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): employment rose every year

[13:36] oola Neruda: there's a book...REPORT FROM IRON MOUNTAIN.... that was widely read in the 60's that talks about the use of war and tactics like trump uses...... as "good for the rich"

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats crazy

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): take a look at the charts

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this president thinks he did it all

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): NOT

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the national debt has risen

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and wil continue

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): propaganda!!!!

[13:38] CB Axel: (a trill in the violins in the music here sounded like my weather radio sending out a warning. LOL)

[13:38] oola Neruda: what farmers.... the corporations own the farms now...and have for a long time.... the small farmer hardly exists anymore

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bad storms headed this way too

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well Trump surney cause a tornado of chaos

[13:38] Hope (naskiff): I guess they don't matter then...

[13:38] herman Bergson: ohh dear ..ohh dear....

[13:39] oola Neruda: and the corporate farmers who sell soy beans are upset with the tarrifs

[13:39] herman Bergson: Time to stay ahead of the storm (y)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many companies are

[13:39] herman Bergson: But....when you listen to our debate....

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and now they cannot find workers they need either

[13:39] oola Neruda: hee hee.... Harley Davidson... has my attention... and more loyalty than ever

[13:39] herman Bergson: We are no geniuses, just average people form this globe....

[13:40] herman Bergson: It means that there are many many others who think like we do here....

[13:40] herman Bergson: In other words....where there is time.....there is hope

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i do have a feeling however that there are many who voted for him only Not to have Clinton... independents

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who will not vote for him again

[13:41] herman Bergson: So let's take our time now and enjoy our vacation :-))

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you too Heman

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: you too herman

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now that you have us all riled up!!!!!!

[13:41] herman Bergson: SO...thank you all again for this great Grand finale :-))

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:41] Hope (naskiff): Yes, most of us "Trump supporters" are no fan of the man, we believe he's the lesser mistake between the two.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be

[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..... ^_^

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any case it have not gone well and something needs to be done

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that we can solve later hopefully

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now time for a nice summer vaccation for me too

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lets all keep in touch

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): last day at work tomorrow

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you should open the group chat herman

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill be in here now and then still

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so we can say hihi

[13:42] CB Axel: I wasn't a Hillary fan, but I sure as hell didn't think a misogynist, gready, lying, son of a bitch was a better choice.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed CB

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): beertje

[13:43] CB Axel: Oh, that's right, Bejiita. Vacation time for you!

[13:43] Hope (naskiff): But it's just appearances

[13:43] herman Bergson: lol...CB....you had no choice

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well whats happened have happened

[13:43] CB Axel: Hope, all Trump has is appearances.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now it needs to be set right again

[13:43] CB Axel: He's all theater and no substance.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always was

[13:43] CB Axel: He's a colossal jack ass and always has been.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:43] herman Bergson: OK GEmma, I'll open the group chat for the coming two months

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): great

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:44] Hope (naskiff): Obama had a lot of appearance too, he seemed classy and intelligent.  It makes it hard to believe he would be a terrible man.

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is a wonderful man

[13:44] CB Axel: He is classy and intelligent. WTF????

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed I liked Obama, seemed to be a good guy for sure

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): respectful of all

[13:44] Hope (naskiff): seemed being the key word

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and sympathetic to all

[13:44] herman Bergson: And that is what Trump HATES, Gemma

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is!!

[13:44] oola Neruda: love and respect Obama

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not seemed

[13:44] CB Axel: What Obama are you talking about?

[13:44] herman Bergson: That a black man can be a great man as president

[13:45] Hope (naskiff): Obama treated his janitor like a human being, while he was bombing Libya.

[13:45] CB Axel: He has more class in his little finger than Trump has in his entire family.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was a joint effort and france did the bombing

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): check it out!

[13:45] herman Bergson: True...

[13:46] Hope (naskiff): My point is, class is all appearances.  Just being a president has good appearances doesn't mean he's a good man.   Don't judge a book by its cover.

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to go run a fishign contest

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Please

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Gemma

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the man was a professor in a law school

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and everyone else

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was a scholar

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a good vacation now

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] herman Bergson: True Hope, but also take the whole political picture into account

[13:46] CB Axel: I don't, Hope. I judge Trump by everything he has ever done his entire life.

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: u too bejiita

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was an attorney in a law firm

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ran a great family

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): senator in state senate

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): senator in us senate

[13:47] CB Axel: That Obama is a lawyer is the only bad thing I can say about him. LOL

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): constitutional lawyer

[13:47] Hope (naskiff): Heh... :/

[13:47] herman Bergson: :-)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have you read his books????????

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his early life????

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): check them out

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will b late

[13:48] CB Axel: Imagine that. A president who understands the constitution.

[13:48] CB Axel: I need to get something to eat.

[13:48] CB Axel: Have a great vacation, everyone.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa me to, hungry from all dancing before

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eheh

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes...you look pale CB....!

[13:48] CB Axel: See you in September. °͜°

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around ㋡

[13:48] Hope (naskiff): Take care everyone.

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i need to sleep

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: bon appetite CB

[13:48] herman Bergson: I'll be there CB Deo volente :-))

[13:48] oola Neruda: happy vacation time...ALL

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks for the great and interesting school year! thank you for the work, Professor Herman :-)  and thanks for the good talks, dear class :-)) happy holidays, sun in your hearts

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a nice vacation all

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone APPLAUDS!!!