733: Spengler's influence on our reality of today.....

In a recent interview Aleksandr Gelyevich Dugin, a Russian philosopher, political analyst, and strategist known for his fascist views, with close ties with the Kremlin,

    

said, that every folk/people has its own culture and thence also has its own truth. 

  

When you talk about cultural values, this can make sense to some extend, but he meant more.

  

The British police has identified two Russian agents as suspects in the poison attack in Salisbury, UK. The Russians deny it

   

and a man like Dugin will justify this with the observation, that you have Western truth and you have Russian truth.

    

A show of absolute relativism. There is no absolute truth. There is only your own truth or the truth within your culture.

     

This is inline with the philosophy, that emerged in the 1970s: Post-Modernism.

   

Postmodernist philosophers in general argue that truth is always contingent on historical and social context rather 

   

than being absolute and universal and that truth is always partial and "at issue" rather than being complete and certain.

  

An other good quote and believe me, this so called post-modernism has colored the end of the previous century.

   

In their book "The New Tolerance" (1998) Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler offer the following definition of postmodernism:

   

"A worldview characterized by the belief that truth doesn't exist in any objective sense but is created rather than discovered. ... 

  

[Truth is] created by the specific culture and exists only in that culture. 

   

Therefore, any system or statement that tries to communicate truth is a power play, an effort to dominate other cultures."

   

Dugin, Post-modernists, they are all indebted to Oswald Spengler and "The Decline of the West"

   

Remember, that volume One was written before World War One, but it paved the road for what we now are experiencing.

  

There are no facts anymore, there always are alternative facts. 

  

We have a world leader who demonstrably has lied more than 4000 times until now

  

And I heard a sane, well educated  person on TV defend the liar, when confronted with a flagrant lie of the world leader,

   

with the argument.....Well, he is entitled to his own opinion.

   

On whose shoulders are we standing, when we look at the 20th century?    

One pair of shoulders seem to be those of Oswald Spengler.

    

Previous lecture I promised you to dig into Spengler today, but there is happing and thence to tell so much today 

  

that I had to move the lecture on "The Decline of the West" itself to next time.

    

Thank you for your attention....

The Discussion

[13:13] CB Axel: Thank you.

[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)7

[13:13] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:13] herman Bergson: Feel free to add your comments....:-)

[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well, whose truth is the correct one, with russia their denial sounded just like another typical Russian coverup to protect their pride

[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or other words untrue

[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed, what is the real truth, is there any?

[13:14] herman Bergson: I'd say Yes, Bejiita...

[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there have to be only what really is is true

[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything else is false

[13:14] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that this post modernist stand is selfcontradictory....

[13:15] herman Bergson: They say....there is NO ABSOLUTE truth.......

[13:15] herman Bergson: However,,,,this can only be true when this statement is an absolute truth...

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah

[13:15] herman Bergson: a universal truth

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think i get it

[13:16] herman Bergson: So...are there real facts?

[13:16] herman Bergson: Yes....

[13:16] herman Bergson: is there undeniable truth....universal truth ...yes....

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical

[13:16] herman Bergson: just go to any hospital and look what...all over the world...physicians do...

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said only what really is can be true

[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes...but you can destabilize a world by questioning that...

[13:18] CB Axel: If nothing is true then it must be true that that statement is false.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well yes

[13:18] herman Bergson: There is a tendency to question the truths of science, the fact finding of journalists....

[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes CB, which  cannot be true :-)

[13:19] Hope (naskiff): You assume what is questioned is a truth, are you sure it's not just a theory?

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like one day they say eating eggs give u cancer and the next day they say eat a many eggs u want its good for your health

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i believe the later one

[13:19] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:19] herman Bergson: In what sense a theory, Hope?

[13:20] Hope (naskiff): For example, the usual dogma used to be that you should not eat fat, because you are what you eat, and lots of scientists know that fat is bad for you.

[13:20] Hope (naskiff): Would you dare question science, or should we shut up and nod?

[13:20] Hope (naskiff): It was a truth back then, wasn't it?

[13:21] herman Bergson: What we eat and its consequences is a complex thing.....

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:21] CB Axel: We should all question science because that's what science is. It's questioning.

[13:21] Hope (naskiff): It is!  In this case, whatever science thinks about such a complex matter, we should probable question it, always. ^^

[13:21] herman Bergson: it is a truth when you assume the premiss that people get sick because of overweight...

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they say cholesterol is bad but ow we know that there is a good and a bad type, still some claim just Cholesterol is BAD

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not ALL of it

[13:21] CB Axel: Part of the problem, as I see it, is the way scientific studies are reported in the news.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its blown up

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to sell more papers

[13:22] herman Bergson: That is a serious problem indeed CB....

[13:22] CB Axel: If one study comes out saying that the subjects of that study had a bad outcome from eating fat, the news media blurt out that obviously fat is bad for us.

[13:22] herman Bergson: And I can tell you why....

[13:22] CB Axel: They don't look at who funded the study.

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that ALL fat is bad

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true CB

[13:23] herman Bergson: and already Spengler wrote it!

[13:23] CB Axel: They don't wait to see if that study gets replicated.

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said they just want to sell more papers by giving people health panic

[13:23] herman Bergson: exactly....

[13:23] CB Axel: They just read the summary of the study and don't look at its methodology or anything.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Spengler already stated that science was about money

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the result is eating disorder and anorexia

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and other health problems

[13:24] Hope (naskiff): Supposedly the guy who pushed the "fat is bad" idea was someone who had a huge pile of "evidence" to back up his claim, lots of studies and such. Anyone who would dispute him would look like a fool and possibly risk their career.

[13:24] CB Axel: If the reporters reporting one science don't understand science, they don't know what they're talking about.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as long they get a good sounding story they dont care

[13:24] CB Axel: Yes, Hope, but his study still had to be replicated by others.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long they make money from it

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from

[13:25] herman Bergson: and the term "BAD" is questionable.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: biased to some extend for instance

[13:25] CB Axel nods

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] Hope (naskiff): I don't know, somehow even thought it should have been replicated, this myth lasted for a long time.

[13:26] herman Bergson: it is our culture that does not accept that we die younger because of consuming too much fat....

[13:26] herman Bergson: it is not nature.....in nature we just die one day or another...

[13:26] herman Bergson: there is no value judgement like....too early.....

[13:26] CB Axel: I'd rather die young eating food I like than live forever eating foods I hate.

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the fat against the sugar industry

[13:27] herman Bergson: Me too CB...:-)

[13:27] CB Axel: Both in moderation, Beertje. °͜°

[13:27] herman Bergson: Bet MeToo ever :-))

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: Best

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:27] Hope (naskiff): I think you can use different scopes.  You can question whether eating fat is bad, or whether eating fat is bad for your health.

13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its how much fat and what fat, there are different ones

[13:28] Hope (naskiff): I think the argument was that it's bad for your health...  and it was very untrue

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): saturated fats are in general less healthy

[13:28] Hope (naskiff): That's a possiblity, not a certainty, Bejiita. ^^

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and synthetic trans fats are poison for sure, clog the veins like old lube grease

[13:28] herman Bergson: Ok we can have a fat discussion about this issue...

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its those we need to stay away fropm

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not all fats

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahah

[13:29] herman Bergson: but what I want you to know is that you find this kind of discussion already in 1914

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (brings out my grease gun and aims ar Herman)

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUHAAHHA

[13:29] herman Bergson: that is resounds in post modern philosophies...

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is....it seemed we inherited it from the 20th century

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:30] herman Bergson: One interesting observation.....

[13:30] Hope (naskiff): About the truths, I think we have universal truths...  if I throw a rock and say I've just thrown a rock, that's a truth.  But most people seem to have a looser standard for what is truth.

[13:30] CB Axel: I bet this kind of discussion took place before 1914. I'm sure there were arguments like this when Copernicus said the Earth revolves around the Sun.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I see  my friend is approaching, need to head out now and meet him

[13:31] herman Bergson: Neither the Stanford Encyclopedia nor the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy have an article  on Spengler

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:31] CB Axel: Have fun, Bejiita!

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why is that Herman?

[13:32] Hope (naskiff): Take care Bejiita. :)

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around

[13:32] herman Bergson: Because Spengler isn't regarded to be a serious philosopher

[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok¨

[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: have fun playing! and good luck :-)

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:32] herman Bergson: Good Luck Bejiita!

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy bejiita

[13:33] Hope (naskiff): I agree with CB that is was probably a topic for much longer than this, and it's just not attributed to anyone

[13:33] herman Bergson: And that rock throwing of yours, Hope.....they would argue that tat is just scientific knowledge....only true in the realm of science

[13:34] herman Bergson: a post modernist would probably respond to you like that

[13:35] CB Axel: Not if you hit him in the head with that rock.

[13:35] Hope (naskiff): Okay... ^^  I never heard "only true in the realm of science" before...

[13:35] herman Bergson: The big question is..is The Decline of the West a serious treatise of bogus.....

[13:36] Hope (naskiff): Your idea of decline of the West seems much different from what I'm used to.

[13:36] Hope (naskiff): I would think the danger of a decline has more to do with the weaknening of the western population.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...a lot of people find it a work of a genius...

[13:37] Hope (naskiff): I don't really put much stock in consensus in general.

[13:37] herman Bergson: The more I study on it the more I like to question this view

[13:37] Hope (naskiff): So what is the decline of the West to you?

[13:38] herman Bergson: I'll save that for the next lecture Hope ^_^

[13:38] Hope (naskiff): aw...

[13:38] Hope (naskiff): I hope it's about more things than just Trump. :P  He has more important things to do than being truthful all the time.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Guess it is a nice moment to end this discussion with this clif hanger ^_^

[13:39] CB Axel: Those golf balls won't hit themselves.

[13:39] herman Bergson: It wont be about Mr. Trump at all , Hope...I promise :-)

[13:39] CB Axel: Yay!

[13:39] Hope (naskiff): Sure. :P  The economy also won't get better by itself.

[13:40] CB Axel: He doesn't care about the nation's economy. He only cares about his personal wealth.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all again for your participation....:-)

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and Class! very interesting

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:40] Hope (naskiff): If he gets richer by making the country richer and giving Blacks and Latinos the lowest unemployment rate in a long time, that's a win-win. ^^

[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:40] herman Bergson: But feel free to continue the discussion :-)

[13:41] CB Axel: Thank you, everyone. See you Thursday.

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: have a  good one

732: Oswald Spengler...

It must be the spirit of our time, moment in history, that Oswald Spengler (1880 - 1936) is in the picture again.

   

"Untergang des Abendlandes" (Decline of the West).... quite an appealing title these days, don't you think so?.

   

How do we have to understand this "Decline". We had that financial crisis, the climate problems, pollution, illegal immigrants, muslim terrorism....

   

Are these the signs of the decline? But we also have better healthcare, better social care, better education, freedom of the press, 

universal suffrage....

    

What can Spengler tell us about our situation?

   

Spengler was convinced that the full measure of life can be discovered only 

  

when decline and decay are perceived and assessed as clearly as beginning and becoming. 

  

It is this dual focus that seems to have  caused people to charge Spengler with the social sin of pessimism.

  

Spengler  wanted to show, based on the eight major world civilizations, that they had all gone through an organic cycle of growth, prosperity and inevitable decay. 

  

This applied to the Babylonian, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian,  Mid-American Aztec, classical or Greek Roman, Western European and the 'Magian' civilization. 

  

With the latter concept Spengler put the Arab, Jewish and Byzantine civilization under a common denominator. 

   

With all these cycles, Spengler wanted to show that Western civilization did not have an exceptional position: 

  

"Every culture has its own possibilities for self-expression, which arise, ripen, decay and never return. "

   

Unlike the rationalists, he did not conceive of Western Civilization as the final station of human evolution. 

   

History was not science, no linear development: there were only separate cultures that emerged and underwent. 

   

The fact that a new culture emerged was, in his opinion, due to two things - race and spirit, 'the inner experience of the' We ''. 

   

Rational society and science had been the triumph of the unyielding Western will, but it would break with a stronger will, that of Germany. 

   

The Germans would win because they had a stronger 'we-feeling'. 

   

The West was obsessed with things that were 'outside' human nature, such as materialistic science. 

   

Germans, on the other hand, had more sympathy with the inner spirit and that was what it was all about. 

   

As I pointed out in the previous lecture, it is very interesting to note, that Spengler formulated his ideas already BEFORE the beginning of World War One.

    

He saw it as his task to free socialism from Russian Marxism so that it would be suitable for the 'more vital' Germany. 

   

A new political category was needed for this. Spengler combined the Prussian attitude with socialism and thus became National Socialism. 

   

That would replace 'practical freedom' as it existed in America and England with 'inner freedom', 'which arises when one does his duties for the organic whole'. 

    

And this organic Whole is the whole of the people, the own culture. And this (German) culture would replace the declining Anglo-American Western culture.

   

To be continued....

   

Thank you for your attention again.....

The Discussion

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: do you think the German culture of the nazis might have been based on his thinking?

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hitler?

[13:24] herman Bergson: These days we see a similar tendency......to defend our own culture....

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): In other words Spengler is the creator of Nazism as i get it Nazism is short for National Socialism if i remember right

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....In 1925 Hitler joint the DAP....Deutsche Arbeiter Partei

[13:25] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...you can not say that....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes he believed in the rise of a strong leader.....but Hitler was the wrong man, was his opinion....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i guess someone stole his premise and used that as part of the new beliefs of hitler

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or Hitler probably did something with it later, Spengler I guess unlike Hitler was not a murdering monster

[13:26] CB Axel is suspicious of "strong leaders."

[13:26] herman Bergson: Spengler died in 1936....so he never witnessed the war

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:27] herman Bergson: Well...Trump poses himself as a strong leader, it seems

[13:27] herman Bergson: Same process....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he Think he is one when in reality he is a babbling idiot

[13:27] herman Bergson: Spengler wasn't a lover of democracy or free press.....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully he wont cause a huge mess

[13:28] CB Axel: Most dictators don't like democracy or a free press.

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sounds like trump too

[13:28] herman Bergson: We'll get to that next time

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes....Gemma...

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: In his opinion democracy and free press were just about money...

[13:29] herman Bergson: money as the universal language

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and when they are not about making him money they are just fake news

[13:29] herman Bergson: something like that :-)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause he only likes his own facts how wrong they might be

[13:30] herman Bergson: But the main question is....is the Western culture in decline?

[13:30] herman Bergson: and another point is....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "Just look whats happening in SWEDEN SWEDEN YEAH SWEDEN!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): woww yes

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): heard all about that election

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NOTHING dramatic is happening here like he blubbers about

[13:30] herman Bergson: We use to see history as periods......

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all is like usual here

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least mostly

[13:31] herman Bergson: Ancient Greek...Middle Ages...Renaissance....and so on

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really bej.... those parties there aer getting  a bit stronger

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): aren't they??

[13:31] herman Bergson: Spengler sees history are an organic process of  cultureds

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well for example the furor in Sweden is partly over immigration

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as it is here !!!!!!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): different kind of immigration

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes.....in other words...about foreigners taken over our own culture....

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there is a worrying trend, a party knonw as SD ( Sweden democrats) they are basically supporting razism and we and them ideologies and want to send all non swedes back into war and death more or less

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but now also trying to prevent legals!!!

[13:32] CB Axel: I wonder if Spengler would see our current climate change as just part of the world's cycle.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause as i heard "they don't fit in"

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha maybe cb

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita I have heard the man talking about defending Sweden's culture

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i listened to a sort of debate of the swedish party leaders

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): o bbc

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still many here sympathize with them cause they say they wil do so many other things, yeah, at what cost, No matter where people come from i gets really sad seing innocent people suffer

[13:34] herman Bergson: Spengler hadn't the slightest notion of things like that CB :-)

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i dont think any one really did back then

[13:34] CB Axel: So, he was even more like Trump.

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trump has no clue on much

[13:34] herman Bergson: You get the feeling there are similarities :-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): science???

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): phoo

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its empty up there I think

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if u tap his head you will probably hear KLOOONG KLOONG

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like a bell or something other hollow

[13:36] herman Bergson: He is smart in his own way, Bejiita...don't underestimate him

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he just think about money and nothing else

[13:36] CB Axel: I think maybe western culture is on the decline, but it's because of people like Spengler and their backward way of thinking.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long he can make money on something he do it no matter if he knows how to do it or not

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like being a president

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its cause he makes money and power

[13:37] CB Axel: The don't want to move forward. They just want their culture as they know it to continue and be dominant.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its greed

[13:37] herman Bergson: We have to have a critical look at Spengler's philosophy of history

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well as far as trump goes i think he wil let the culture go as long as he survives and thrives

[13:37] herman Bergson: It is not a consistent theory

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): along with his kiddies

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Spengler might have some things correct i bet

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes ...he is praised for that Gemma....

[13:38] herman Bergson: In 1925 he "predicted' another war...

[13:39] herman Bergson: But he died of an heart attack in 1936

[13:39] herman Bergson: I wonder what he would have been thinking after World War Two

[13:39] CB Axel: Ah, but did he predict it or did people listening to his nationalistic talk start the war?

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might be both

[13:40] CB Axel: He may not have lived to see WWII, but he may have had a hand in starting it.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tho he might not have been read by tht many people??

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...what I find so interesting is the attitude in those early years of the 20th century....

[13:40] herman Bergson: this nationalism...

[13:41] CB Axel: It only takes a few, Gemma. Then they talk and write about the same ideas, and eventually they spread.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like those at trumps rallies

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and get out of control and KABOOOM!

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes....something like that....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Next time I'll try to present a critical analysis of Spenglers ideas...

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:43] CB Axel: I don't remember when Spengler wrote his book.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall look him up on wiki

[13:43] herman Bergson: He regards cultures as organic entitities....you can question that

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or the philosophers website

[13:44] herman Bergson: He sees them come out of the blue and go again.....

[13:44] CB Axel: He could be right about that.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yet Western culture is heavily based on, derived from the Ancient Greek/Roman culture...

[13:45] CB Axel: True

[13:45] herman Bergson: So...still a lot of questions to answer

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as usual

[13:45] CB Axel: So you could say that the Greek and Roman cultures never failed.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice way f looking at it

[13:45] herman Bergson: Spengler would say..they failed...but you can question that indeed

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the principles lived

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:47] CB Axel: But the Greeks and Romans weren't as strong as the Germans. °͜°

[13:47] herman Bergson: For today the interesting observation is that Spengler is in the news again htese days.....is it telling something about the time we live in?

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders if ayn rand read him too

[13:47] herman Bergson: The Germans do it differently these days.....

[13:48] CB Axel: Interesting thought, Gemma.

[13:48] herman Bergson: How would it fit in with her objectivism, Gemma

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not sure

[13:48] herman Bergson: But this 'strong man' idea would have appealed to her

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but she disdained history

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think]

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and culture

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless it lead to self aggrandizement

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes strong man

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ayn Rand = selfishness personified

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and woman

[13:50] herman Bergson: A number of issues to look into next time :-)

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:50] herman Bergson: So, if you haven't any question left.....

[13:50] herman Bergson: thank you for your participation again ^_^

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can go get ready to host fishing

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time then

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

[13:51] CB Axel: See you all on Tuesday.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): howdo

[[13:51] herman Bergson: oops Gemma was in a hurry...:-))))

[13:51] herman Bergson: Another fishing contest to host, I assume :-))

731: Decline of the West...

In my research for this lecture I ran into the famous essayist, journalist Menno Ter Braak (1902 -1940).

   

He committed suicide five days after the invasion of my country, the Netherlands, by Germany .

   

I was struck by a quotation of his words from 1932:

  

"our mistake was, when we admired Spengler too eagerly, that we, living under the balance of power of democracy, 

  

which respects the intellect to some extent, had made only academic considerations 

  

of a development of power of those, who not only despised the intellect, but (what is worse)  force us to servile accepting forgeries of facts ".

  

I wouldn't be surprised, if you have difficulty to immediately grasp the meaning of the words of Menno Ter Braak.

  

What he means in 1932 is, that we live under the checks and balances of democracy, which respect the intellect

   

and our thoughts about those, who threaten this, have been only academic so far, while those, who threaten this status quo,

   

hate and despise all intellectual talk and use lies etc. to grab  power.

   

I couldn't help thinking of Donald Trump here and the numerous populist movements in a number of countries in Europe and Nazi-movements in the US.

   

Since the Middle Ages there is ongoing fight over who controls Europe, who is the number one.

   

The players in this fight  are Germany, England and France. This is what you have to keep in mind, for the fight still goes on.

   

In June 1917 was a presentation of the Dutch translation of "Der Untergang des Abendlandes"  / "Decline of the West", 

   

written by Oswald Spengler in the period 1914 - 1922. It has two volumes and it is important to keep in mind,

   

that he finished writing volume One before the beginning of World War One.

   

A reason for writing his book was some other event. In 1911 France wanted to occupy Morocco. 

  

A German warship moved into the harbor of Agadir to prevent this from happening.  However, combined political pressure of France and Great Britain forced the Germans to retreat.

   

This was felt as a huge humiliation in Germany and Spengler began writing. A new time would begin.

  

The main message of his "Decline of the West" was, that the future would be in the hands of Germany and German culture.

   

You should know, that according to Spengler, the Germans were so different from the French and British people.

   

The explanation of the difference is this: Spengler had read Werner Sombart, economist and sociologist. 

  

According to Sombart (1863 - 1941), due to the economical and political liberalism our whole life is commercialized, a situation which affects our moral and ethics.

  

In history, he claimed, there are only two types of man: heroes and merchants. And these two types were strongly represented by 

  

Germans, the heroes, and French / British people, the merchants. And the days of the merchants are over.

   

The new world would be shaped by the heroes, that is by Germany. Again, this was formulated all BEFORE the beginning of the First World War.

   

It all happened a hundred years ago, but yet I can not neglect my feeling that is sound so familiar....

   

Next time we'll discuss Spengler's ideas...Thank you for your attention...

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:18] CB Axel: Thank you.

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): let me guess, The merchants won ad now commerse and greed is ruling the world

[13:19] CB Axel: Is it still heroes vs merchants or is it now intellectuals and merchants?

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money is everything

[13:19] herman Bergson: Well, so far Spengler seemed to have been wrong

[13:20] CB Axel: Yes, the merchants have been winning hands down no matter who you think their rivals are.

[13:20] herman Bergson: The German heroism has disappeared

[13:20] herman Bergson: They have become good merchants themselves I suppose :-)

[13:21] herman Bergson: But like a century ago, again politicians complain about the threats to our culture

[13:22] CB Axel: To whose culture specifically?

[13:22] CB Axel: Dutch? German? French? English?

[13:22] herman Bergson: I heard those in Sweden say....Yes we have to preserve and defend our Swedish culture

[13:22] CB Axel: Ah, everyone. Yes.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Western Culture, CB....that is threatened according to many populist politicians

[13:23] herman Bergson: In US terms it would be that White Supremacy is threatened

[13:23] CB Axel: But each western country is concerned about their own specific culture.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Well...I guess muslims will never wear wooden shoes :-)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:24] herman Bergson: We have to live with that :-)

[13:24] CB Axel: But I probably never will, either. °͜°

[13:24] CB Axel: Although, if I moved to the Netherlands I probably would.

[13:24] herman Bergson: I always have known you are a muslima, CB :-))

[13:24] CB Axel: LOL

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wooden shoes are comfy

[13:25] herman Bergson: If you would, I guess you would be the only one wearing wooden shoes, CB :-))))

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i use to wear those when working in the garden with my parents, fixing the plantages

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): perfect for such things

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] herman Bergson: I'll be honest....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): making sure there will be lot of strawberries for me

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:26] herman Bergson: When I was a young student I also wore wooden shoes in my vegetables garden

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my son always wore them to go to school

[13:27] herman Bergson: So...is Western Culture in decline...?

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i could hear him when he was on his way home...klep...klep...klep

[13:27] herman Bergson: cute :-))

[13:27] CB Axel: I keep meaning to read about the fall of Rome to see if there are parallels.

[13:28] herman Bergson: That is a serious issue CB.....

[13:28] herman Bergson: History explained by analogies....

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does history really repeat itself?

[13:28] CB Axel: I have heard there are parallels.

[13:29] herman Bergson: I would say no

[13:30] herman Bergson: Using analogie s in explaining history is highly questionable

[13:30] herman Bergson: Not even the humans are the same

[13:30] CB Axel: How are we different from then?

[13:31] herman Bergson: our look at life is completely   different from ...say...ancient Romans

[13:31] herman Bergson: The way we interpret reality....

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): much to technology i guess like electricity, computers ect

[13:31] herman Bergson: They believed in a plethora ogf gods...

[13:31] herman Bergson: we don't

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and science

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all those were unknown by then

[13:32] CB Axel: Our one god is as troublesome as their plethora.

[13:32] herman Bergson: But there is something we have in common with all men through history.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: that is our basic feelings of fear, joy, hate, disgust, jealousy, affection and the like

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): testosteron

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa that seems logical

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those are things we are born with

[13:33] herman Bergson: They are caused by the brain and hormons indeed Beertje

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): technology dont change that

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): unless we do gene manipulation that is

[13:34] herman Bergson: But the context we use these basic emotions in are totallydifferent

[13:34] CB Axel: Religion doesn't change that either.

[13:35] herman Bergson: That is the point, CB...belief systems manipulate how we use our basic emotions

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even from our early childhood

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes

[13:36] CB Axel: But their belief in many gods controlling their lives isn't different than the belief that one god controls lives. It's still believing in magic rather than people.

[13:37] herman Bergson: True.... magic that doesn't work, however :-))

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all about us to take care of things, there is no supernatural ghost or entity telling you what to do!

[13:38] CB Axel: Right

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still so many believes this is the case

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have never heard anyone speak to me from the sky for sure, have you?

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes, it still will take centuries of evolution to change that, Bejiita

[13:38] CB Axel: Believing that God is sending a hurricane to the Carolinas allows us to continue to destroy the environment.

[13:39] CB Axel: Let's just keep burning fossil fuels. God will take care of us.

[13:39] CB Axel rolls her eyes

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): using it as an excuse to continue polluting and dump trash everywhere makes it even more terrible

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just look at the trash mt everests drifting in the seas now, i was shocked when i saw that

[13:40] herman Bergson: It is so weird, CB...History shows that he never did take care of us.....but they keep expecting it

[13:40] CB Axel: ikr

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes...that trash on that mountain....tonss of it :-))

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm there too

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but have u seen the mountains /islands of trash and plastc in the seas at some places

[13:42] herman Bergson: I read about that

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have seen it Bejiita

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): big as an entire country some of them

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes...that is unbelievable

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's terrifying

[13:42] CB Axel: It's outrageous.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we think when we flush stuff dowh the toilet its gone or if we throw it somewhere its someone elses job to pick it up instead of properly dispose of it

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the end it ends up in the sea

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we are so lazy

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): plastics, chemicals ect

[13:43] herman Bergson: As a final thought...let me bring something to your attention.......

[13:44] herman Bergson: when you look at primates in the jungle, what do yo see....

[13:44] herman Bergson: they got eaten by lions or a python.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: they are somewhere in the middle of the foodchain.....

[13:45] herman Bergson: when homo sapiens appeared, a 2.5 million years ago htings changed....

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we don't need to be eaten by a lion, we are distroying ourselves

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we eat/kill everything

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least some of us do

[13:45] herman Bergson: the smarter he became the more destructive he became for the whole eco-system of the earth

[13:46] herman Bergson: so if you talk about threatening the earth.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: the very moment homo sapiens appeared the food chain was wrecked.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: all of a sudden he was on top

[13:46] CB Axel: So before man greed was kept in check by stupidity? LOL

[13:47] herman Bergson: that was now how this earth was organized as an eco system

[13:47] CB Axel nods

[13:48] herman Bergson: so....we are an anomaly :-))

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): were different for sure

[13:48] herman Bergson: in the eco-system of this planet

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can theearth handle us?

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the earth

[13:48] CB Axel: When we were stupid apes the ecosystem was in balance, but once we grew our great big hominid brains our greed was able to be set free and we began to destroy the world.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yet ...bad luck for earth...we are part of its evolutionary process yet

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:49] CB Axel: I've been saying for a while that the best thing that could happen to the earth is for mankind to be eliminated.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Something like that CB ㋡

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we must at least learn we cant go on like this

[13:50] herman Bergson: I have to think about that argument, CB :-)

[13:50] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but when rainforests are cut dow to make money from palm oil its the usual problem, when money is involved we don't care if we destroy the planet

[13:50] CB Axel: Serves you right! You make us think all the time. LOL

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so money and greed is a big issue here to

[13:50] herman Bergson: This is also our earth, for we are a product of it....

[13:51] herman Bergson grins

[13:51] herman Bergson: sorry....won't happen again ^_^

[13:51] CB Axel: Maybe the MAGA people will get eaten by lions.

[13:51] CB Axel crosses her fingers

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheheh cb

[13:51] CB Axel: That's OK, Herman. Thinking is good for me. °͜°

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the interesting part of this

[13:52] herman Bergson: Ok CB....

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with my coding, its a challenge and its part of the fun it makes u think a lot

[13:52] herman Bergson: I'll dismiss class now so you can f go on thinking :-)

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with this

[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your attention again

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting as crazy it it

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is

[13:52] CB Axel: I'll have to do my thinking at the grocery store. °͜°

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki gonna finish my lamp scripts in Unity now

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman :)

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time ㋡

[13:53] CB Axel: I'll see you all on Thursday.

[13:53] CB Axel: Bye!

[13:53] herman Bergson: Good luck Bejiita :-)

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill be even more uplit hopefully next time

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): f in IM