736: Oswald Spengler and Nazism

Yesterday my newspaper reminded me that I have been to easy on Spengler.

   

We have to keep in mind that we are studying the legacy the 20th century left us.

     

Let me translate and quote what I read:  

"When historian Frits Boterman graduated in 1992 on the cultural pessimist and political activist Oswald Spengler, 

   

he could not have imagined that Spengler's book 'The Decline of the West' would become popular again with right-wing and anti-liberal thinkers.

   

The reissue of his study is intended as a warning. Those who deal too lightly with the thinker who helped make fascism possible, fall easily into the same pitfall."

    

This was a short review of a dissertation of 640 pages! So, the subject "Spengler and Nazism"has to be addressed here too to be complete.

  

Actually Beertje already referred to the issue in previous discussions. In 1932 Spengler voted for Hitler

  

and in 1933 he even had a personal meeting with Hitler. However, he was not really impressed by the person.

   

Spengler never became a member of the Nazi party and had a number of differences of opinion with the nazi ideology.

   

Nevertheless the Nazis used a lot of ideas, which you also find in "The Decline of the West".

  

On the one hand, Spengler was a fierce anti-democrat who called for a "Caesarian" dictatorship,

   

in which the individual is entirely absorbed in "totality" and thereby "receives and obeys commands". 

  

On the other hand, Spengler initiated a social Darwinian racial struggle on a global scale. 

   

The German race should lead the "white peoples" in the struggle against what Spengler presented as the greatest danger: the emergence of the "colored races".

As Spengler says: "The coming of Caesarism breaks the dictature of money and its political weapon, democracy." (pg, 506)

  

(pg. 507) "Ever in History it is life and life only - race-quality, the triumph of the will-to-power - and not the victory of truths, discoveries, or money that signifies. 

   

World-history is the world court, and it has ever decided in favour of the stronger, fuller, and more self-assured life 

  

-  decreed to it, namely, the right to exist, regardless of whether its right would hold before a tribunal of waking-consciousness. 

   

Always it has sacrificed truth and justice to might and race, and passed doom of death upon men and peoples in whom truth was more than deeds, and justice than power. "

   

This quote from page 507 contains everything: the glorification of race and will-to-power, the right of the stronger,

   

might and race over justice and truth, the glorification of deeds in stead of truth finding and power over justice.

  

It goes too far to equate Spengler's ideas with Nazism, for there were too many differences of opinion. 

  

The current perspective among historians is that Spengler has been an important inspiration for national socialism.

  

And even in our present time some politicians still seem to be inspired by Spenglerian ideas.

   

Thank you for your attention again.... ˆ_ˆ

The Discussion

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): welll whatever it was it seems to be dripping into this century too

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but he certainly had an influence what ever he was

[13:22] herman Bergson: What I am wondering about is...was Spengler really the creator of nazi ideas?

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the beginning  lectures it seemed to me to be very suspect of that

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): He seemed to support both racism and dictatorship at least

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to the fullest

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...or was he just putting into words what a lot of people already believed?

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe that is what it was

[13:23] CB Axel: Did he influence the Nazis or did the thoughts of Nazis influence him?

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was he pulled along with the rest or was it his own visions?

[13:24] herman Bergson: Neither of the two CB.....it was all in the air in the first 25 years of the 20th century

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i need to review more closely nazi sm

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to understand it better

[13:25] CB Axel: Yes. They didn't call themselves Nazis then, but they had many of the same ideas.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:25] herman Bergson: What we call Nazis these days are people who are racists, white suprematists, looking for a supreme leader/dictator

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: anti-semits

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i feel them here again

[13:26] herman Bergson: It is all still there in our present politics

[13:26] CB Axel: And how are their ideas different than what Spengler was hearing?

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: Not much, I would say

[13:27] CB Axel: All I'm saying is that those thoughts were more common than we think they were, but Spengler just wrote them down.

[13:27] herman Bergson: We even have a member of parliament here who says he is still inspired by Spengler

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh good

[13:27] herman Bergson: My idea too CB

[13:27] CB Axel: He gave people permission to discuss those ideas openly, maybe.

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what i really think and why i questioned if he really was a philosopher

[13:28] CB Axel: Just like Trump has given white supremacists, misogynists, and homophobes permission to speak up.

[13:28] herman Bergson: What I already mentioned in a previous lecture....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:29] herman Bergson: Neither in the Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy nor in the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an article on Spengler

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok that does it

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is true

[13:30] herman Bergson: He sint a philosopher nor a scientific historian

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and still he had a big influence on history

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i went and found articls on him tho yes

[13:30] CB Axel: He was just a nut job with a typewriter. °͜°

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe cursive cb

[13:30] CB Axel: OK, a nut job with a pen.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...all right wing politicians with a good story still have an influence these days

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:31] CB Axel: Now anyone with a smart phone and a YouTube account can do what Spengler did.

[13:31] herman Bergson: We love xenophobia....white supremacy....strong leaders...it seems

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now days very true

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they do!

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or try

[13:31] CB Axel: That's scary.

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is indeed CB

[13:32] herman Bergson: The president of the US poses as a strong leader and is yet laughed at by the whole UN assembly

[13:32] CB Axel: Ideas like that can travel fast and find many others who can band together.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was great!!!!!!!!!!!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was watching

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a strange world today for sure

[13:33] herman Bergson: He didn't even get it, what was happening...:-)

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and just like that video you showed last time i believe if something is not done not only US but the entire world will go down the drain

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scary development

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he did not like the un before will hate it now

[13:34] CB Axel: Well, the feeling is mutual, Gemma.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Not too pessimistic Bejiita...

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well something have to change and soon

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): feels like everything is balancing on the edge

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is always saying the world leaders now repect and love us

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not when Obama was president

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well..what I found interesting in relation to the beginning of the 20th century was Trumps statement that he doesnt support globalization, but patrotism...

[13:35] herman Bergson: which is equivalent with nationalism

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he does not understand patriotism

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at all

[13:36] CB Axel: I'm happy to see the rest of the world going to each other for things like soy beens. It's time they should the US that they can do just fine without it.

[13:36] herman Bergson: that was the situation in Europe too in those days....

[13:36] herman Bergson: The  nation state was the essence

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:36] herman Bergson: politics was geopolitics....

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the early years of the 20th century

[13:36] herman Bergson: that was the cause of the First World War

[13:37] herman Bergson: the Second World War was a reaction on the humiliation the Germans had suffered after 1918...

[13:37] herman Bergson: That supports Spengler's ideas....

[13:37] herman Bergson: The losers want to be heros again in Europe

[13:38] herman Bergson: Like un the US these days the whites feel like losers.....a growing minority....all those immigrants etc...

[13:38] herman Bergson: And Trump has become the King of the  Losers these days

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i really feel like some are now really getting to understand their error

[13:39] herman Bergson: WhenI listen to Chris Hedges I even fear for the possibility of a civil/racial war in the US

[13:39] CB Axel: A few are, Gemma.

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't see that happening

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that has been asserted since Obama appeared

[13:40] herman Bergson: No....neither do I....but the situation almost suggests the possibility....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a feeling that it could

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes...that is what I mean...

[13:41] herman Bergson: But I still believe that the 20th century wont repeat itself today, though a lot of political ideas are similar

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary tho

[13:42] herman Bergson: And the reason for this is that we now live in a globalized world....

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i surley dont want a ww3

[13:42] herman Bergson: Look at trade and banks....

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so that i hope really doesnt happen

[13:43] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Those wars in the 20th century were geoplolitical wars....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Hitler wanted Lebensraum.... living space

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even the world leaders today seem really dangerous, both Trump and Putin seems like guys who could start something like this, hopefully even they have learned something

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from history

[13:44] CB Axel: Don't forget Kim, Bejiita.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or china either

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and Erdogan

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): China is gaining

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least he seems to have trapped down nis nuke mania now or have he?

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes..but ask yourself the question....what is there to gain by war?

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nothing

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:45] herman Bergson: Exactly....

[13:45] CB Axel: Egos

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just death and destruction

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looks like a lot of the 20th century is falling into this one

[13:45] herman Bergson: In the 20th century they believed the gain was territory....

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:46] herman Bergson: At this moment the best strategy seems to be a digital warfare....

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dangerous too

[13:47] herman Bergson: destroy democracies from the inside by reinforcing the internal differences by fake news and molls

[13:47] CB Axel: No one wants territory any more. Everyone wants money and control.

[13:47] herman Bergson: indeed

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all about greed

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to get more and more for yourself

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): power and money

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well actually russia wants the artic

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all of it

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to drill for oil and gas i guess

[13:48] herman Bergson: Pretty ambitious, Gemma :-)

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and maybe the moon

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for china

[13:49] herman Bergson: What I have always wondered about is....how can you claim and say you own the earth...

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what the first americans always said... the indians

[13:50] CB Axel: Russia wants the Arctic for the oil. China wants the moon for its minerals. They only want those things for themselves. I don't see why we can't all use those things for the benefit of everyone.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree

[13:50] CB Axel: But I wasn't influenced by Spengler. I was influenced by Star Trek.

[13:50] herman Bergson: .

[13:51] CB Axel: I blame Gene Roddenbury for my current pessimism.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wellas i always say what we need is a good Alien invasion to cohease the world's humans

[13:51] herman Bergson: Me too CB.....

[13:51] CB Axel: He has a lot to answer for.

[13:51] CB Axel: Exactly, Gemma.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:51] herman Bergson: But here we come to a totally different philosophical discussion....

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i have to run off now

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OBING OUT THE KLINGONS!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:51] herman Bergson: The possibility of private property...:-)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:52] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu gemma

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:52] herman Bergson: So time to end our discussion and thank you all again...:-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...ˆ_ˆ

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:52] CB Axel: Everyone needs their own private property so they can have privacy and alone time. But that may be the introvert in me talking.

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:52] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

735: How scientific was Spengler....?

Relying only on comparisons to prove a point rather than arguing deductively and inductively is called a logical fallacy.

   

Example: “Education is like cake; a small amount tastes sweet, but eat too much and your teeth will rot out. 

   

Likewise, more than two years of education is bad for a student.” 

  

The analogy is only acceptable to the degree to which a reader agrees that education is similar to cake. 

   

As you can see, faulty analogies are like flimsy wood, and just as no carpenter would build a house out of flimsy wood, 

  

(see the analogy here too :-) no writer should ever construct an argument out of flimsy material.

   

An analogy can be quite appealing, but it can not be the base of scientific theories. Let's see what Oswald Spengler thinks about this.

   

Spengler: "The means whereby to identify dead forms is Mathematical Law. The means whereby to understand living forms is Analogy. 

   

By these means we are enabled to distinguish polarity and periodicity in the world."

   

Spengler: "Mathematics and the principle of Causality lead to a naturalistic Chronology 

   

and the idea of Destiny to a historical ordering of the phenomenal world. 

  

Both orderings, each on its own account, cover the whole world. The difference is only in the eyes by which and through which this world is realized."

  

So much on Spengler's scientific method. It is a method of writing about history, but can we call it scientific?

    

The means whereby to understand living forms is Analogy, is just a creative idea of Spengler.

   

There is no epistemological or empirical argumentation available to justify this point of view.

   

Secondly, according to Spengler, there is more than just chains of causes and effects. There is also Destiny which brings order in the phenomenal world.

  

"The difference is only in the eyes by which and through which this world is realized", which means that there are

   

more ways of gaining knowledge than the scientific empirical method, based on the analysis of cause and effect.

    

Any theologian would tell you that, if you ask him how you can get knowledge about god.

   

"The Decline of the West" is more than a thousand pages. You are free to spend your time on reading it, of course. 

   

I am done with Spengler and will move on with our project.

    

Thank you for your attention and feel free to ask questions or give us your opinion....

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: .

[13:19] herman Bergson: Maybe it all was to condensed for you

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess in realith there is no other way, Science is the only real way gaining true knowledge

[13:20] herman Bergson: But the main point is that all stories about cultures by Spengler and his explanations of these cultures are in terms of an analogy with living organisms

[13:20] CB Axel: So, Spengler felt that every culture will eventually decline?

[13:20] herman Bergson: That is what happens to plants CB

[13:20] CB Axel: But he bases it only on the fact that all living things eventually decline?

[13:20] herman Bergson: so he concluded that it also will happen to any culture

[13:21] CB Axel: So he felt that human culture is a living thing?

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes...

[13:21] CB Axel: I suppose you could look at it that way.

[13:21] herman Bergson: It is an ever changing phenomenon...true....

[13:22] herman Bergson: But a plant emerges blooms and dies....

[13:22] herman Bergson: and there is no argument or proof that human culture behaves the same

[13:22] CB Axel: I've often wondered if the Earth is a living thing and humans are like viruses infecting it.

[13:22] herman Bergson: and the fact that you compare it to a plant doesnt mean a thing...

[13:23] herman Bergson: In a way , as some people assume, we ARE a virus

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well other species adapt themselves to the nature, we adapt the nature after us instead

[13:24] herman Bergson: The fact is that the moment we got self consciousness we moved  from the middle range of the foodchain to the top of the food chain....

[13:24] herman Bergson: That demolished the whole eco-system of this earth

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): plus we often kill and eradicate everything from insects to bigger animals without even being hungry

[13:25] herman Bergson: other animals do that too, Bejiita

[13:25] herman Bergson: just kill for the kill

[13:26] herman Bergson: But to make a point.....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not like some of us do i think, many species have gone extinct cause of that and that we destroy things like the rain forest to make money of palm oil and similar things

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): destroying the nature in the process

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nature

[13:27] herman Bergson: Spending time on reading Spengler is a waste of time, unless you like imaginative stories

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita, we are good at that and good at fighting and protesting against it

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily many of us are on that side as well

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): realizing what will happen if this continues

[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed..

[13:29] herman Bergson: But the question here is, is the Western culture in its final stage, if you follow Spengler....

[13:30] herman Bergson: However, he thought that  stage was already reached in 1925

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:31] herman Bergson: Is there a new culture rising somewhere?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Why didn't emerge somewhere else another culture?

[13:31] CB Axel: China

[13:32] herman Bergson: No...according to Spengler that culture is over....

[13:32] CB Axel: Not in 1925, but I think maybe China is rising again.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Let me explain....

[13:32] herman Bergson: In Spengler's theory a culture was a living thing.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: it grows...then blooms....and then.....?

[13:33] herman Bergson: it petrifies in what he then called Civilization.....

[13:33] joann (joannovia): i have to leave ..im sorry..bye all

[13:33] herman Bergson: Bye Joan...see you around

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tot ziens Joann

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye Joan

[13:33] joann (joannovia): tot gauw

[13:33] joann (joannovia): daag

[13:34] herman Bergson: This civilization is some kind of solid state of a culture....

[13:34] herman Bergson: no new developments...no grows etc....can last forever

[13:35] CB Axel: So it can't rise from its ashes like a phoenix?

[13:35] herman Bergson: So if you say China....according to Spengler that would be a civilization now....not a culture anymore

[13:35] CB Axel: Ah.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Here you see the problem with using analogies to  explain reality....it just doesn't work

[13:36] CB Axel: Some plants are perennials and come back year after year.

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you call a culture Herman?

[13:36] FrannyDJ Dean is offline.

[13:36] CB Axel: Not only did Spengler not understand human cultures, but he didn't know much about plants, either.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well culture and civilisation are not really the same thing, to me culture is the language, art and other things characterizing this particular civilization, different dances, traditions ect

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats culture to me

[13:38] herman Bergson: According to Spengler there were three stages...

[13:38] herman Bergson: 1    Peasantry: The world of peasantry which is pre-Cultural and lived in the countryside. It is also outside “high” culture

[13:38] herman Bergson: 2    Culture: The period of Culture which grows and develops in the town and city.

[13:39] herman Bergson: So the agricultural situation became overwhelmed by the rise of cities..

[13:40] herman Bergson: 3    Civilization: Each Culture begins to stagnate and die within the mega-city (megopolis) which is a phenomenon of Civilization.

[13:40] roos Gartner is offline.

[13:41] herman Bergson: So the mega cities like Paris and New York or London are the proof of this stagnation...

[13:41] herman Bergson: That is how Spengler saw things...

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont see any sign of france or US going away anyway soon

[13:41] FrannyDJ Dean is online.

[13:42] herman Bergson: Neither do I Bejiita :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so indeed Spengler seems to have missed some things here and there in his comparisons

[13:42] herman Bergson: Only the US is fading....:-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats because of Trump

[13:42] herman Bergson: As Trump said today...I don't believe in globalization....we choose for patriotism....in the UN Assembly

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw now he tiumphed and boasted about that he had accomplished more things then any other ever

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just UUUUUUUAAAAAHHH

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he maybe have spead more shit then any president ver

[13:43] CB Axel: He has a different view of what's patriotic than I do.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Bejiita....just watch this....Trump sais a lot of things to which he adds....."in history....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is only interested in whats gaining him

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what he makes money from

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing else

[13:44] herman Bergson: My government achieved more than any other in history.....which made the Assembly people laugh....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if he so would start WW3 in the process

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long he would make money from it

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is scary

[13:44] herman Bergson: Then he said...

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ohh I didnt expect that reaction...but that is ok....

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:45] CB Axel: I was so glad they laughed at him.

[13:45] CB Axel: He hates being laughed at.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hat else would he expect

[13:45] herman Bergson: the man didn't even feel embarresed....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or does he realy think he make so many good things

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i said before he should have been locked up in an asylum long before he got a chance to enter white house

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and throw away the key to his cell.

[13:46] CB Axel: I'm sure he'll tweet something incredibly stupid tonight.

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): boasting about how good he is

[13:46] herman Bergson: slow down Bejiita...

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): UUUUGHH BLAAAAAH!

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well well see wht happens

[13:47] herman Bergson: please :-)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and ww3 have not begun yet

[13:47] CB Axel: Easy, Bejiita. You're going to give yourself a heart attack.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes CB, my concern too

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I just dont get Trump

[13:47] herman Bergson: You don't need to Bejiita....

[13:48] CB Axel: I actually do get him. I don't get the people who voted for him and still think he's the best thing to come along ever.

[13:48] herman Bergson: So if Spengler is right with his theory....maybe it applies to America....

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well CB...there was a poll....

[13:49] herman Bergson: They asked people..when Trumps says something, do you believe him....

[13:49] herman Bergson: They asked Reps by the way....93% said YESA

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders

[13:49] herman Bergson: Second question...

[13:50] herman Bergson: When a relative says the same....do you believe that relative....

[13:50] herman Bergson: 63% said YES

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeeh

[13:50] CB Axel: I heard about that poll, too.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:50] herman Bergson: Too weird....

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very

[13:50] CB Axel: They want desperately to believe that Trump will make their lives better.

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes...Trump is the King of the White losers in the US

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eve when its obvious he is just talking BS

[13:51] CB Axel: They want it so desperately that they'll believe him even when there is proof that they shouldn't.

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): must be that

[13:51] CB Axel: He is their great white hope.

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they dont want to realize they have voted for the wrong guy

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they had wrog

[13:52] CB Axel: They can't accept that white men are no longer control of everything.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): confirmation bias i think its called

[13:52] CB Axel: *in control

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed CB......that 8 years with a black president hit them hard...very hard

[13:53] CB Axel: I wonder what they would have done if Obama had been followed by a woman president.

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what difference does skin color make in making good decisions

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes....more disaster, CB

[13:54] CB Axel: I don't think (I'd have to do a search of US demographics through the years) that white men have ever been a majority of people in the US.

[13:54] herman Bergson: With all weapons around in the US...Trump could even cause a new civil war.....

[13:54] CB Axel: They've been the majority of voters, but only because they made the laws that said who could vote.

[13:55] CB Axel: I've wondered about that, Herman.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or in worst case WW3, maybe even a global nuclear war = armageddon, end of all civilizations and life on the entire planet

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes...me too

[13:55] CB Axel: Some Californians are already talking about succeeding.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i really hope this is never gonna be even a slight risk

[13:55] CB Axel: Seceding. Sorry

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes I know

[13:55] CB Axel: Forming their own country.

[13:56] CB Axel: I've thought for years that we should give Texas back to Mexico. °͜°

[13:56] herman Bergson: oh my....

[13:56] herman Bergson: You really think they love to joins the spics

[13:56] CB Axel: No, but I'd be glad to be shot of them.

[13:57] CB Axel: Most of them, anyway. I know a couple Texans I like. °͜°

[13:57] herman Bergson smiles

[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes there are always good guys and bad guys...everywhere :-)

[13:57] CB Axel: Texans love to brag that they're the most patriotic Americans but they have one of the lowest voting rates of all the states.

[13:58] herman Bergson: Funny Rednecks :-)

[13:58] CB Axel: They think patriotism is waving flags, having parades and cookouts, and blowing things up on holidays.

[13:58] CB Axel: Oh, and owning guns.

[13:58] CB Axel: That's not my view of patriotism.

[13:58] herman Bergson: and be white supremacists

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:59] CB Axel: I guess. Only whites can be patriots.

[13:59] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....

[13:59] herman Bergson: Well to conclude this session.....

[14:00] herman Bergson: go to the next URL and check out the Youtube like in the caption....CB does already know it :-))

[14:00] herman Bergson: https://www.flickr.com/photos/herman_bergson/43084906960/in/dateposted-public/

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again....class dismissed

734: Oswald Spengler himself...

It is exactly 100 years ago Oswald Spengler's "The Decline of the West" (1918) was first published.

   

That is of course the reason, that a Dutch publisher found it profitable to publish a Dutch translation of the book this year.

  

When it was published in 1918 it immediately was a bestseller (1918 - 1922), volume 1 and 2.

  

The english translation by Charles Francis Atkinson was published in New York in 1926. sixth printing, May 1927.

    

At least the book was highly controversial. It had friends and foes.

   

Academics gave it a mixed reception. Max Weber (1864 - 1920) was a prominent German sociologist, philosopher, jurist, and political economist.

He described Spengler as a "very ingenious and learned dilettante", while Karl Popper called the thesis of "The Decline in the West" pointless.

  

Yet it is quite a thesis to claim, that Western Culture is declining inevitably and then....???  What comes after the decline? Are we in decline now or past it? 

      

Time for a Closer Look at Spengler.....

   

"In this book is attempted for the first time the venture of predetermining history, of following the still untravelled stages in the destiny of a Culture, 

    

and specifically of the only Culture of our time and on our planet which is actually in the phase of fulfillment - the West-Europe an-American."

  

This quotation is the opening statement of the Introduction of the book on page 3. It is already loaded with (questionable) assumptions.

    

"the venture of predetermining history": this assumes at least that history follows a predetermined path.

   

There is for the time being no proof, that this really is the case, but we must be fair....this is just the opening sentence of the book.

   

"the destiny of a Culture": this is a big assumption from a philosophical point of view.

   

It implies that history is teleological in nature, which means that it is heading for some specific goal or destiny,

   

People who believe in the bible know what their destiny is. Eventually you'll appear before your Lord and you'll hear your destiny: Heaven or Hell.

   

But how is it with history? How can we know our destiny through time? Who can or already has revealed it to us?

   

To those questions Spengler has an answer. His whole "The Decline of the West" is based on it.

Let's hear it:

  

"Cultures are organisms, and world-history is their collective biography. Morphologically, the immense history of the Chinese or of the Classical Culture 

   

is the exact equivalent of the petty history of the individual man, or of the animal, or the tree, or the flower. " pag. 104

  

Cultures are organisms, that is the thesis of Spengler. What he meant by that and if it makes sense scientifically, we'll discuss next Tuesday.

   

Thank you for your attention..... ^_^

The Discussion

  

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are nothing

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): individually then

[13:28] herman Bergson: ohh...?

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is that what he meant?

[13:29] herman Bergson: No, I would not read that in it

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh

[13:30] herman Bergson: but in a way you could say that as an individual we are cells of a body...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmm

[13:30] CB Axel: I think he meant that like any living organism cultures are born, they live, they mature, and they die.

[13:30] herman Bergson: every cell counts...but the body as a whole counts more, I assume

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that i get

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but what did he really think of the individual then

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the petty history .....

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of me

[13:31] herman Bergson: so dieing in a war as individual is a sacrifice to the body

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that makes sense

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for him i mean

[13:31] herman Bergson: There is this line of thinking......that the collective is more valuable than the individual

[13:32] herman Bergson: the individual serves the collective...

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is why so many lives were sacrificed in WW-1 and WW-2

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[13:33] herman Bergson: You fought for your nation....your culture and race

[13:34] CB Axel: Hmm. I've never been in the military, but I think I'd feel more like fighting to maintain the freedoms I'd like all nations to have.

[13:34] herman Bergson: It fits into the picture of Spengler....We have topreserve our culture....it is an organism...

[13:34] herman Bergson: In a way that is the US philosophy still

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds a bit like the borg collective

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or a bee hive

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks so partly

[13:35] herman Bergson: and European too

[13:35] herman Bergson: The European parliament condemned Hungary last week....

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i read that

[13:36] herman Bergson: because the government suppresses free press and monopolizes the justice system

[13:36] herman Bergson: same applied to Poland

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes just thought of that

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): both going terribly in wrong direction

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just like Turkey

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes....and we fight for the freedoms we have...just as CB said

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the prime minister just asked trump to set a division there permanenty

[13:37] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje....we forgot Turkey

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a new perm base

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh turkey did such a U turn

[13:38] herman Bergson: But it isn't part of the European Union

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they want to be

[13:38] herman Bergson: I know

[13:38] herman Bergson: but do I want it :-)))

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i guess NO

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no i think not

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thy will never as long Erdogan is there and he will make sure he is never loosing his power, just look what he did before to everyone opposing him, he is awful!

[13:39] herman Bergson: Indeed

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a monster

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Power sadly seems to do this

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least in many cases

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cases

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes bej

[13:39] CB Axel: Yes. It's happening here in the US.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Power does something to the human brain.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: The longer you are in power, the more wrong it goes in the brain....

[13:40] herman Bergson: So..a system of only 4 years in power is very healthy

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u loose all empathy and feel for others you just care more and more about yourself and your power

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes something like that, Bejiita

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and become more and more terrible against other people

[13:41] herman Bergson: So...is the West in decline?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Was Spengler right?

[13:42] herman Bergson: in his prediction?

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was Spengler a democrat?

[13:42] CB Axel: I think maybe individual countries are in decline.

[13:42] herman Bergson: not at all!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe a burp

[13:42] herman Bergson: He forsaw the rise of a strong Leader....

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he voted for Hitler :(

[13:43] CB Axel: Was the west in decline when Britain began to lose all its colonies?

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and from there the world went down the drain more or less

[13:43] CB Axel: Britain was in decline, but not the entire west.

[13:43] herman Bergson: in 1933 he met Hitler and had a long talk with him....but Spengler concluded that Hitler was too vulgar....not the HERO - LEADER he had in mind

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but he voted for him

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats good he realized that

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why?

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that seems strange to do in that case

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): probably his mustache

[13:44] herman Bergson: Because he voted for National socialism, I assume

[13:44] CB Axel: Just like people voted for Trump even though they knew he was a racist, misogynist heap of manure.

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rigth

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ugh

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still don't get it

[13:45] CB Axel: They felt, and many still do, that Trump is on their side and will bring back the economy.

[13:45] CB Axel: Even though the economy was already getting better.

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:45] CB Axel: Now, I see us as on the road to another great depression.

[13:46] herman Bergson: nothing really wrong with US economy, I'd say

[13:46] CB Axel: Not that I'm an economic expert, but still.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not yet Herman

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): China is not happy with Trump

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a thing yet

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless the tariffs really cause loss

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which they could

[13:47] CB Axel: Well, people were losing their jobs. But many of those jobs were in industries that were declining anyway.

[13:47] herman Bergson: They already  do...

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): doing harm in farming

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): soy

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bit harm

[13:47] herman Bergson: yes

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i dont see any steel mills opening

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yet

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:47] herman Bergson: But the main political point here is that a looser always needs an enemy....

[13:47] herman Bergson: an external enemy

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or companies rushing back to open here again

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or middle class pay raises

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a looser never says sorry I was wrong

[13:48] herman Bergson: companies wont return to the US for production purposes...

[13:48] herman Bergson: They'lll move to India or other asian countries

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Africa

[13:49] herman Bergson: In relation to China Trump plays the tough businessman who gets his deals...

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is ready

[13:50] herman Bergson: You might be right there indeed, Gemma

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): government is not like business at all i think

[13:50] herman Bergson: that is why this tarifs war is so pointless

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and his lies go way back in reference to his businsses too

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): way back

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he doesn't lie Gemma, he has his own truth...

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:51] CB Axel: lol

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which is all fake

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but of course he believes EVERYONE elses ideas and news are fake

[13:51] herman Bergson: The only happy people at this moment are the Russians....

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as usual

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is a group keeping track of his lies  and he has surpassed 4000

[13:52] herman Bergson: long time ago they already bought Trump.....was a long lasting project

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that can be proven

[13:52] CB Axel: People are too impressed with wealth.

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes I know...isn't it the Washington Post?

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant recall

[13:53] CB Axel: I'm more impressed with integrity and compassion.

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does he have some CB?

[13:53] CB Axel: He has nothing but money.

[13:53] CB Axel: He's worthless, really.

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yess

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true

[13:54] herman Bergson: And yet I do not believe that he is the sign of the Decline of the West...:-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he looks like a pile of the rubbish he is actually made from

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or Jabba the Hut

[13:54] CB Axel: No. He's just a sign of the decline of the US.

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that is an insult to Jabba

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no i don't either

[13:55] herman Bergson: I am more optimistic CB....

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you believe Herman?

[13:55] herman Bergson: He is the best wake-up call the US ever could have...:-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed couldnt believe it when i heard trump had won

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will hopefully see the beginning of the end in November

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed

[13:55] CB Axel: But the people who elected him aren't waking up.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:55] herman Bergson: Oh yes...cant wait till November...

[13:56] herman Bergson: He lost the popular vote CB

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we didn't believe he would be president either, so anything ca happen

[13:56] CB Axel: They want to protect the possibility of becoming rich and privileged rather than face the reality that if things keep going the way they are, they're just going to keep getting farther and farther behind.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i know some who would not vote for hilary so did not vote at all

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to run

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you Gemma

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[13:57] herman Bergson: Have fuyn

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again Herman

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): next time

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all...

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...:-)

[13:57] CB Axel: Well, the Democratic party needs to listen to the people and not give us someone who keeps campaigning in the old ways.

[13:58] CB Axel: OK. Well, I'll see you all next week. Bye.

[13:58] herman Bergson: What do you think of Avenatti, CB ?

[13:58] CB Axel: I don't really know anything about him. I keep meaning to read about him, but I still haven't.

[13:58] herman Bergson: I like that guy

[13:59] CB Axel: Maybe I'll do that now. °͜°

[13:59] herman Bergson: He is clever and sharp.....

[13:59] herman Bergson: Lots of him on Youtube....

[13:59] CB Axel: I'll see you Tuesday.

[13:59] herman Bergson: was fun....Avenatti against Tucker Carlson on FoxNews....

[13:59] herman Bergson: You should see that CB :-)

[14:00] CB Axel: I saw that video was posted but I haven't watched. I'll do that now. °͜°

[14:00] herman Bergson: lol...you should :-))

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)