519: Aristotle and the Arab philosophers

At a given moment in history, when a society is not primarily occupied with hunting, gathering and farming to survive, it gets time to think beyond that.

We have seen it in Chinese culture, Indian culture and in Greece. And eventually we see it happen in Arabic culture too a 1000 years later than in Greece.

It was the advent of the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258) that signaled the beginnings of an interest in philosophy on the part of the ruling elite. 

This was manifested itself in a translation movement which in the first place translated Syriac texts of philosophy into Arabic, but which later turned to the Aristotelian texts themselves and the commentaries written on them in late antiquity.

Syriac is a dialect of Middle Aramaic that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent and Eastern Arabia. I already mentioned it in the previous lecture in relation to the origins of the Quran.

Having first appeared as a script in the 1st century AD after being spoken as an unwritten language for five centuries, Classical Syriac became a major literary language throughout the Middle East from the 4th to the 8th centuries.

The situation is thus: The function of the Prophet is to reveal the religious law (shari‘a) while the Imam unveils gradually to his disciples the inner meaning (batin) of the revelation through the ta’wil, which is going back to the original meaning of the Quran.

But there is more than just the explanation of meaning of words and statements. Man can’t be stopped to think past beliefs, question beliefs.

And this confronts us with the more fundamental questions like: Is this statement true? And if true, is it necessarily true or just accidentally? How do you validate the truth of a statement?

In fact, such questions belong to the greatest discoveries of our mind, because they ask for the way the mind operates in understanding life, the world.

You could say that after the standard religious answer in the form of a theological text, in this case the Quran, philosophers take the questioning one step further. They begin to reason.

We all reason. We try to figure out what is so, reasoning on the basis of what we already know. We try to persuade others that something is so by giving them reasons. 

Keep in mind that this is common practice for us today, but in 790 CE this was innovative knowledge, new ways of looking at things, a formalized way of reasoning: logic.

Logic is the study of what counts as a good reason for what. and why. You have to understand this claim in a certain way, though. 'Here are two bits of reasoning - logicians call them inferences:

1. Rome is the capital of Italy, and this plane lands in Rome; so the plane lands in Italy.

2. Moscow is the capital of the USA; so you can't go to Moscow without going to the USA.

In each case, the claims before the 'so' - logicians call them premisses - are giving reasons; the claims after the ·so' - logicians call them conclusions- are what the reasons are supposed to be reasons for. 

The first piece of reasoning is fine; but the second is pretty hopeless, and wouldn't persuade anyone with an elementary knowledge of geography: the premiss, that Moscow is the capital of the USA, is simply false. 

Notice, though, that if the premiss had been true- if, say, the USA had bought the whole of Russia (not just Alaska) and had moved the White House to Moscow to be nearer the centres of power in Europe - the conclusion would indeed have been true. 

It would have followed from the premisses; and that is what logic is concerned with. It is not concerned with whether the premisses of an inference are true or false.

What philosophers became aware of was the fact, that there is a proposition which is in a way prior to every other truth: it is prior because it is a proposition which anyone who knows anything must accept and because it is impossible actually to disbelieve it. 

Which proposition that is and which the Arab philosophers learnt from Aristotle, I’ll reveal in the next lecture unless of course you already know or can guess…^_^

518: Quran and Greek Philosophy

With regard to Arabic or Islamic, I will first take a philosophical stand in this matter. My general principle is that we only have our brains and that everything thought, said or written is solely the product of our brain.

This being said implies, that there are no sources of information outside our brain. It is us, thinking and sentient beings, who make up every theory about our world.

This , of course, brings me in conflict with the following: Muslims believe that the Quran was verbally revealed from God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibril), 

gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE, when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632 CE, the year of his death. This contrary to the Bible, which is said to be written by men, who were only inspired by their god.

Consequently it is easier to do  historical and linguistic research on the bible texts that on those of the Quran. Yet, to understand Arabic philosophy it is important to get the whole historical picture, the landscape in which all emerged.

For instance, there is a link between the Bible and the Quran, for it contains references to over fifty people and events also found in the Bible.

Some suggest that the Quran has developed out of an Aramaic text, the Peshitta, translations from Hebrew and Greek texts in the 2nd Century in the area now called Syria.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDTnPYWc4U

Interesting subject for personal research. You will be surprised to see what is all going on in the debates about  questions like “What is the original language of the Quran, Aramaic or Arab?” and “Quran versus Bible”.

My most amusing find was the answer to the question “Which of the two is the most violent book, The Bible or the Quran?”

If you count the verses, the bible wins by being twice as violent as the Quran. But the bible contains some 84.000 verses while the Quran only some 850.

So if you take proportions into account, the result is the opposite. About 2.4% of the Bible verses refer to violence, while about 5.7% of Quran verses do.

But back to more serious issues. When you look at the historical maps, you see that in the days that the Quran was written and thereafter a lot of wars occurred in the Arabic world.

Let me quote Karen Armstrong here, born 14 November 1944, a British author and commentator known for her books on comparative religion. This is from her book “Islam”:

The Kharajites were extremists but they forced Muslims to consider the question of who was and who was not a Muslim. So important was the political leadership as a religious idea that it led to discussions about the nature of God, predestination and human freedom.

The Kharajites were always a minority group, but their position was important, since it was the first instance of an important Muslim trend, whereby the politics that affected the morality of the ummah (muslim community) led to a new theological development.

From time to time, Muslims who protested against the behaviour of the reigning caliph would retreat from the ummah, like the Kharajites, and summon all true Muslims to join them in a struggle (jihad) for higher Islamic standards.

-end quote-

This was about 657 CE. As you see, in my opinion it seems that little has changed. We still may recognize the same patterns. The Quran was the dominating factor in history and in that world we see strong influences of Greek philosophy, which was much more developed than Arabic thinking of those days.

To some extent, scholars disagree about the role of the Greek sources in Arabic and Islamic philosophy . While acknowledging the existence of a Greek heritage, those who consider the Quran and the Islamic tradition as the main source of inspiration for philosophy

claim that the latter did not arise from the encounter of learned Muslims with the Greek philosophical heritage: instead, according to them philosophy stemmed from the Quranic hikma (“wisdom”). 

As a consequence, the Greek texts in translation are conceived of as instruments for the philosophers to perform the task of seeking wisdom.

However, most scholars frequently side with the opinion that what gave rise to the intellectual tradition of Arabic philosophy was the so-called movement of translation from Greek.

In the next lecture we’ll investigate what this means.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...plz feel free

[13:21] Oceane: thank you herman, nice tuition ㋡

[13:21] Gemma Allen: no names yet buy mohammed

[13:21] Gemma Allen: but

[13:21] herman Bergson: You want names Gemma?

[13:21] Gemma Allen: just wondered

[13:22] herman Bergson: There are a number of Arabic philosophers.....great names

[13:22] Gemma Allen: i will go look at the wiki

[13:22] herman Bergson: For Europe Avicenna and Averoes were the greatest...

[13:22] Gemma Allen: homework

[13:22] Gemma Allen: ah ok

[13:23] herman Bergson: Bu that was around 1050 or so if I am not mistaken.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: They brought in fact Aristotle to Europe

[13:24] herman Bergson: Arab philosophy began in fact with studying and translating the Greek philosophers like Plato and Aristotle

[13:24] Gemma Allen: ahah

[13:24] herman Bergson: But one must be careful in what you say......all pretty sensitive issues.....

[13:24] Merlin: I am a bit confused

[13:25] herman Bergson: the big problem in the debate is the Quran.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: What confuses you Merlin?

[13:25] Merlin: Are you saying it is possible that the Koran was NOT written by Mohammed Herman?

[13:25] herman Bergson: I wouldn’t dare.....

[13:25] Merlin: hehe

[13:26] herman Bergson: But the point is....

[13:26] Merlin: ok

[13:26] herman Bergson: in muslim belief the quran is directly the word of god....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] Daruma Boa: °°

[13:26] herman Bergson: while the bible is just written by men

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: more like a storybook from when they met god or similar

[13:27] Gemma Allen: but considered the word of god

[13:27] herman Bergson: and for instance....historical and linguistic research on the texts of the Quran is not appreciated everywhere

[13:27] Oceane: not everybody likes the hard and merciless light of enlightenment...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: i guess so

[13:28] Merlin: ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: For instance this link with the Aramaic text of the Peshitta...from the 2nd century

[13:28] herman Bergson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDTnPYWc4U

[13:28] herman Bergson: Part of a documentary about this subject.....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: I read that the greek philosophy was almost forgotten in the middle ages and that it was saved be the muslim universities

[13:29] herman Bergson: the posted reactions are perfect examples of how things are today...how people think about such an issue....

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy.....

[13:30] Gemma Allen: i think i did hear that once also

[13:30] Gemma Allen: now that you say it

[13:30] herman Bergson: That was the great contribution of Avicenna and Averoes to scholastic philosophy of the Middle Ages

[13:30] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: The Arabs brought Aristotle to Europe around 1000 - 1100

[13:32] herman Bergson: When you do some research on the internet....it is amazing what you all find on these issues....

[13:32] Daruma Boa: oh thats true^^

[13:32] Daruma Boa: and not everything is true

[13:32] Gemma Allen: considering that Greece is part of Europe

[13:33] herman Bergson: just a search on Quran vs Bible gives you at least 3.8 million hits with in a second

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:33] Gemma Allen: lol\

[13:33] Gemma Allen: life work

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: Averoes we can see on Raphael’s picture behind us btw

[13:33] Merlin: oh no

[13:33] Daruma Boa: ;-)

[13:33] Gemma Allen: ah??

[13:33] Merlin: Those google counts include all sorts of mismatches too

[13:33] herman Bergson: Ahh...I didnt know :-)

[13:33] Daruma Boa: rofl

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: on the left side with a yellow turban

[13:33] Daruma Boa: herman, now u know^^

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well actually I never took the trouble to find out who all are portraited there :-)

[13:34] Gemma Allen: lo

[13:34] Gemma Allen: there is a place i saw that names them all

[13:34] Gemma Allen: a few years ago

[[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes I have seen such maps too :-)

[13:35] Oceane: well to me both sources.. are texts, and all you can do is work on the texts, and both of them are some of the great narrations, II guess mankind needs those narrations to help them making sense in their life....

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Athens

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well Oceane...I was thinking about that all the time preparing for this lecture....

[13:36] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:36] Oceane: ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: Bible and Quran are said to come from god....but that happend centuries ago...

[13:36] herman Bergson: why then....and why has god never spoken again ?

[13:36] Gemma Allen: no one listens :-)

[13:37] herman Bergson: Doesn’t he needed an update of his Bible for instance?

[13:37] Daruma Boa: that is the question for all

[13:37] Merlin: lol

[13:37] Daruma Boa: or better everything

[13:37] Daruma Boa: perhaps 42 is the answer

[13:37] Merlin: lol Daruma

[13:37] Daruma Boa: ^^

[13:37] herman Bergson: on the other hand it is not surprising that these two books still are part of our culture....

[13:37] Merlin: Ive been following that just recently

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: indeed seems god wrote these books to hide again forever someplace

[13:38] herman Bergson: When you look behind me....

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: We can't understand the quran anyway, they say it can only be read correctly in arabic language

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: cause who can say today they’ve seen god for real?

[13:38] herman Bergson: all those wars among arabs was caused by their Islam....

[13:38] Merlin: "Who is this God person anyway?"

[13:38] Daruma Boa: i guess there is no god. we all are god.

[13:39] herman Bergson: this god is named POWER....

[13:39] Daruma Boa: my opinion

[13:39] herman Bergson: the books got connected with the political power of rulers and used for all kinds of political justifications

[13:39] Gemma Allen: oh

[13:39] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:39] Oceane: Well nowadays we have the postmodern age with the vanishing of signs, and values and collective items that making sense, the political subject seems to vanish in the public context, and if you are asking what is the common ground for a society , alot of people might shake their had... because certain values didn´t get transported.. I don´t know if this is the flipside of modern freedom...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed, and with terrible results

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: war war and more war plus oppression of people, esp women

[13:40] herman Bergson: and because they showed to be very useful in controlling the masses we still have them

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: thats the result of this

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: rulers have used the bible for their interests

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and justification to kill people that think different , are homosexual ect

[13:41] Gemma Allen: still do

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats really awful

[13:41] MerlinMerlin smiles to self

[13:41] Daruma Boa: yes all think there is one god who will lead me and give me advice. but everyone has the power to do and lead all on his own. they all forget that.

[13:41] Daruma Boa: forget

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:42] Daruma Boa: it is so^^

[13:42] herman Bergson: What seems to be a fact is that the human brain on the one hand generates these religious ideas and on the other hand seems to need them to understand his life and world

[13:43] Daruma Boa: yup

[13:43] Oceane: well if one thing gets through the masses is that every individual seems to be made responsible for failures that are produced by our system... and even if its a collective fault it gets transported as an individual mistake, this system produces next to exconomical good a lot of psychic illnesses

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: thats for sure

[13:44] Daruma Boa: but the "system" are we

[13:44] Daruma Boa: everyone can get out and change things.

[13:44] herman Bergson: One thing should be observed here.....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: indeed, but they dont since they are to tied up in religious beliefs and thing the great master will save them

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: wont happen

[13:45] herman Bergson: I imply that eventually human rationality should be the prevailing quality of the human mind

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: they have to do that themselves

[13:45] Daruma Boa: true

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and the first they can do is stop blowing everyone up with these damn bimbs

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: bombs

[13:46] herman Bergson: and that will take some more centuries...to complete that process of mental growth

[13:46] Daruma Boa: thats a political thing...

[13:46] Daruma Boa: the bombs

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but its sunni vs shia ect bombing each other all the time for ex

[13:47] herman Bergson: While studying the old sources of our (religious) behavior we may learn what we still have to achieve :-)

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: different thinking groups kill each other and lot of bystanders

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: for nothing¨

[13:47] Daruma Boa: i thought about ukraine or iraq right now

[13:48] Daruma Boa: and mostly its about resources, when they use those things

[13:48] Daruma Boa: when

[13:48] herman Bergson: I suggest that we look how Greek philosophy became part of Arabic thinking and what it meant.....

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:48] herman Bergson: Good for another lecture ^_^

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats inersting since its 2 way different cultures

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: look forward to that

[13:49] Daruma Boa: yes,there is so much to talk about!

[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again :-)

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:49] Gemma Allen: always

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to you professor

[13:49] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Daruma.....that is the nicest and most dangerous issue here :-)

[13:49] Daruma Boa: hope to be here thursday

[13:49] Gemma Allen: hope to be here Thursday

[13:49] Daruma Boa: ;-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: SO I'd say...Class dismissed ^_^

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:50] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

517: Reason in Arabic philosophy

I am still puzzled by the words of Muhammad ibn Zakariyā Rāzī  (854 CE – 925 CE), who asserts that reason is the basis of our human existence:

“In sum, reason is something without which our state would be the state of beasts, infants, and the insane.”, he wrote.

An American catholic bishop compares  in public his president Obama with Stalin and Hitler. Entire nations get into turmoil by a simple drawing. How reasonable is religion? How reasonable is it to be a believer in this or that?

For me the concept of reason is closely related to tolerance, to exchange of arguments, coming to conclusions based on facts and logical reasoning.

Our present subject of study is Arabic philosophy, but also and more often called Islamic philosophy. It shows that you can’t understand the one without  the other.

Contrary to our previous subjects, Chinese and Indian philosophy, it was not to difficult to keep all kinds of theology outside, 

but in the present case the entire history of the subject is so closely intertwined with theology, which is Quran, that I have to deal with this.

In one of my lectures on Indian philosophy I said that the Indians went so far as to concede, that if one wishes to debate with an opponent, one must first find a common epistemological ground upon which to argue. 

In case of Christianity or Islam belief is true, actual knowledge and the source of this knowledge is a book and the source of the book is revelation 

and the revelation is some mental state of the author(s) of the book and this mental state should be accepted as a justified source of information.

al-Razi said: :Through reason we arrive at knowledge of the Creator -He is exalted!- which is the most immense knowledge we can to attain, and the most beneficial object of our aspiration. “

This brings up the question “Is reason a means to show the rationality of our beliefs, to show the reality of revelations?” 

 In English the word reason  has long had, and still has, a large number and a wide variety of senses and uses, related to one another in ways that are often complicated and often not clear.

However, there is one particular sense of the word in which it, with its synonyms or analogues in other languages, has figured prominently in philosophical controversy. 

This is the sense, sometimes distinguished typographically by an initial capital, in which the term is taken to designate a mental faculty or capacity, in which reason might, for example, be regarded as coordinate with, but distinguishable from, sensation, emotion, or will.

This allows me to ask,  what are human beings in a position to do, in virtue of their possession of the faculty of reason? What, by means of reasoning, are we in a position to achieve?

And we have to ask these questions, because by referring to the rationality to use what is written in some book, in our world it is apparently justified to compare a current president of the US with Stalin and Hitler, or to simply murder people with car bombs or to blow up yourself.

In other words, in the context of our present subject, Islamic philosophy, there is all reason to question the rationality of belief.

Humans, claimed Aristotle, are rational animals. However, recent psychological studies purport to show that people systematically deviate from canons of logic, probability theory, decision theory and statistics.

Reasoning is central to the acquisition and improvement of our beliefs. If a belief is recognized as sustained through defective reasoning, it is not rational to maintain the belief.

If we look at our world of today and see things happen which are beyond reason, can we judge them by making reason the standard, or transcends belief reason?

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you…^_^

[13:21] Roo: who are you thanking?

[13:21] Zanicia: Bravo Prof.

[13:21] Roo: have you finished already?

[13:21] Roo: オゥ☆ ohhh

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: now its discussion time

[13:21] herman Bergson: You for your attention and presence :-))

[13:21] Roo: ah

[13:21] Zanicia: yes

[13:21] Roo: your welcome.

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: well islam is for once the most violent of all religions

[13:22] herman Bergson: It always has been Bejiita

[13:22] Areyn Laurasia: It's not the fault of any religion but rather the interpretations of such by flawed reasoning..

[13:22] oola Neruda: yes

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: they take for granted its ok to murder the ones different thinking and even marry away small children in some cases

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: totally insane i d say

[13:22] Zanicia: true

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: but i think the original quran is not saying that

[13:22] oola Neruda: is it the religion or the people who want power etc... USING it as the excuse for what they call others to do

[13:23] oola Neruda: divine right of kings

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: but some extreme people have modified it

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: its not reason i d say to go by those rules

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that they use but they seem to believe that

[13:24] herman Bergson: My point today is more the observation that we make reason  or say rationality to a standard to judge human behavior in an ethical sense

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: then the wuestion is what is the true reason

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: question

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: theirs is not

[13:25] herman Bergson: The Declaration odf Human Rights is a product of reaon....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes that i call true reason

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and a will to make peace with each other

[13:25] herman Bergson: and we declare what it states as RIGHTS....based on reason...or?

[13:25] Roo: and also the judicial system is a product of reasoning also

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: not blowing each other up all you can with jihad or similar things

[13:26] herman Bergson: Indeed Roo

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: peace and happiness is a basic drive for people naturally thats why id say this must be true reason

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: one of the things

[13:26] herman Bergson: And here we have Islamic Philosophy.....intertwined with Quran...with beliefs

[13:27] oola Neruda: reason and morality are not necessarily the same thing

[13:27] herman Bergson: they aren’t oola, no

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: also science is reason because it seeks the real truth and no supernatural frabbajabba

[13:27] herman Bergson: it is reason that defines morality....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: how things REALLY work

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: therfore science = reason as well

[13:27] Areyn Laurasia: what if.. science is tied to religion in the end?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well Areyn I was just thinking about that....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: but then its no real science because science is to truly have seen how it is

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just take this....

[13:28] oola Neruda: reason should be a-moral

[13:28] Areyn Laurasia: science is not all solid facts.. the deeper you go, the more unknowns there are

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: if i can really see a god, or santa clause then if isn’t it scientifically proved that they exist

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts but not before that

[13:28] herman Bergson: one of the fundamental philosophical questions is the relation between knowledge and belief

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and so far i’ve never seen any of these things

[13:29] herman Bergson: Knowledge and belief....

[13:29] herman Bergson: But take reason and our assumption that is our faculty to define life....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: complex it is for sure

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: but very interesting

[13:29] herman Bergson: this is in fact a belief...

[13:30] oola Neruda: good point, Herman

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:30] herman Bergson: and science..its axioms are based on beliefs...and tested every day

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yet we call science knowledge.....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed, we for ex know how atoms are made up because we have studied and seen that it really is this way

[13:31] herman Bergson: which implies the assumption of certainty....matter of fact...never changing....stable....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: therefor we know most about how the world works but not all, at least not yet

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: some is still hiding

[13:31] oola Neruda: bu it isn't

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes this assumption is based on belief....for instance the belief that all began with the Big Bang...

[13:31] oola Neruda: but it isn't ... stable

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: the big bang theory is not nailed 100 %

[13:32] oola Neruda: schroedinger's cat

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: just a theory

[13:32] herman Bergson: In other words....

[13:32] herman Bergson: knowledge is relative....

[13:32] herman Bergson: not absolute...

[13:32] Zanicia: nailed? It is hopelessly flawed!

[13:33] herman Bergson: That brings us back to religious belief and its claims that it is knowledge

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but you must at least see some sign of a thing before you can say it is really there

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: not like with gods, how many people have actually sensed the presence of one

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: not many i thing even of the believing group

[13:33] oola Neruda: so much theory is what they see in equations....and it comes out as knowledge

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: or even more seen one

[13:34] Merlin: yes I do not entirely agree with that statement the knowledge is only relative

[13:34] herman Bergson: And there we are Bejiita....who draws the line between what is and what is not?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: its tricky indeed but i want to see a thing for myself and not accept it just because some book says it without more detailed fact around it

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: I do not see electricity but I know with it's absence my computer would not work.

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: can I deny it's existence?

[13:35] herman Bergson: No Aryen....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and if u stink the finger in an outlet u get a nasty shock

[13:35] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:35] Zanicia: Bravo Areyn

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: so its really existing

[13:35] herman Bergson: and it isnt necessary either....

[13:35] Merlin: there are other ways of seeing something than just visually

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: so electricity is fact, no magical force

[13:36] herman Bergson: only when you claim that the eyes and ears are the only sources of information then electricity does not exist....

[13:36] herman Bergson: but we have indirect means of observation AND  DEDUCTIVE reasoning here

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: also we know how electricity works, that it is because electrons can move between metal atoms

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and the principle of induction that make generators possible

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: all this we know

[13:37] herman Bergson: It is like higgs particles....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: its fact, not magic

[13:37] herman Bergson: you can not see them....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] herman Bergson: but based on what you can see you can logically deduce that this or that would react on this or that which only can be the case if....and so on

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: was just a theory but now they are at least almost sure it is there however cern NEVER says something is really there until they have a sigma 5 on it which is 99.999999999999% certainity

[13:38] herman Bergson: I have no problem with that

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: same with dark matter

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: also just a theory so far

[13:39] herman Bergson: my "problem" with Islamic philosophy is caused by what I see happening in teh Islamic world....

[13:39] herman Bergson: But  not in the entire Islamic world tobegin with

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed, its going all out of control, more violent then ever

[13:40] herman Bergson: and the apparent lack of reason sometimes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: why is that?

[13:40] Roo: becasue people have different morals

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: i think its cause they fear they will loose their power and get desperate

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: trying to eliminate the opposers

[13:40] herman Bergson: So...in the next lectures I'll look into the history of that world....to find an answer to the current situation

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: would that violence be there without external instigation?

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Areyn......

[13:41] Merlin: There are often crimes in UK which we discover were from ethnic minorities

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: well before they went into iraq it was better then it is now

[13:41] Merlin: Muslims typically

[13:41] Merlin: such as child abuse cases

[13:41] herman Bergson: Same here Merlin.....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: same in egypt, the arabic spring turned into a tragedy

[13:41] Merlin: But nobody is allowed to make this observation

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: making it worse and not better

[13:41] herman Bergson: But it has nothing to do with being muslim.....

[13:41] Merlin: that they are mostly muslims who do this

[13:42] herman Bergson: that is about cultural integration....

[13:42] Merlin: It is F-ing illegal to speak out

[13:42] Merlin: Tony Blair introduced this

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: no but same principle, as long its not theated its calm but when the mighty ones fear their beliefs and power is under a threat hell break loose

[13:42] Merlin: Damn him

[13:43] Gemma Allen: there is a short distance between being upset by crime and associating it with minorities

[13:43] herman Bergson: We have a politician here who publicly asked "Do you want more or less Morrocans in The Hague?"

[13:43] Gemma Allen: nto a good idea

[13:43] herman Bergson: and the crowd yelled "Less..less.less....!!!"

[13:43] Merlin: hehe

[13:43] herman Bergson: Utmost stupidity...

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: its so complex and so hard to get all details about what is really happening in the world now but ive seen so many tragic things in the news ect

[13:43] Roo: thats not funny really.

[13:44] Gemma Allen: right

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: A lot of people filled a complaint at the Court against this person at the moment....

[13:44] Zanicia: Damn good idea if you ask me.....in my country we are not asked abd are becoming completely overrun with foreigners

[13:44] Areyn Laurasia: who wouldn't want to stay in their own country if they can?

[13:44] Gemma Allen: oh dear this is deteriorating

[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed Areyn....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:45] Roo: it did along time ago Gemma

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: they flee for a reason

[13:45] herman Bergson: But I think we are drifting away from our topic of today now :-))

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: that bombs rain on them

[13:45] Gemma Allen: i mean the discussion here

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and other awful things

[13:45] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: back to reason :)

[13:45] Roo: yes i agree Gemma

[13:45] herman Bergson: YEs....plz

[13:46] herman Bergson: But I agree...this issue touches on many questions....

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: very many

[13:46] herman Bergson: But I'll continue in the enxt lectures with the historical dievelopment of how it ended up like it is now....

[13:46] Gemma Allen: who aare the muslim philosophers ??? are then teh imams?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: id say this is one of the most complex subjects we have dealt with so far

[13:47] herman Bergson: No historically they arent Gemma

[13:47] Gemma Allen: or are there actual philosophers within the religion

[13:47] Gemma Allen: or outside of it

[13:47] Zanicia: outside certainly

[13:47] herman Bergson: That is what we have to find out.....

[13:47] oola Neruda: there are poets in that culture that i consider philosophers too

[13:47] Gemma Allen: ok'

[13:47] oola Neruda: but not in the same way as western philosophy

[13:48] herman Bergson: the point is that Arabic philosophy has leaned heavily on Greek philosophy around 650 - 900 CE...

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aaa i see

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm think it sounds familiar that they have some connection far back indeed

[13:48] herman Bergson: on the other hand there was the political development motivated by Mohammed and hsi Quran...

[13:49] herman Bergson: ti is not the same story...but so closely involved with each other...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:49] herman Bergson: I hope we'll discover what the difference is between Arabic philosophy and the other half....

[13:50] herman Bergson: what is it...Quran....muslim culture....?

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: indeed and who was really this mohammed

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: is he a god or what is he really?

[13:50] oola Neruda: we can ask that same question of Christianity... is it the culture or the bible

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: never understood that

[13:50] herman Bergson: Just a man Bejiita...

[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: definitely not a god :)

[13:50] oola Neruda: he was a prophet

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: he was some prophet as i get it

[13:51] Gemma Allen: nono

[13:51] Merlin: you could say that about Jesus too

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: its a bit like buddhism, is also a real person and no god

[13:51] Merlin: in the case of Jesus it is even more vague

[13:51] Gemma Allen: well the three religions all eminate from the same background

[13:51] Merlin: Abraham

[13:51] Gemma Allen: abraham is considered the father of the three

[13:51] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: trus

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:51] Merlin: Abey babey

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: there we have a connection

[13:51] herman Bergson: There is little known about the historical Jesus person.....but he has lived...and was killed by the romans for political reasons....maybe the only facts we have

[13:52] herman Bergson: With Muhammed it is a different story...

[13:52] herman Bergson: There is more documented about his historical existence

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: have jesus even existed for real and also if he did was he really born at year 0?

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: and who was he then and what was it that made him the son of god?

[13:52] Merlin: oh we havent time to get into this

[13:53] herman Bergson: You may assume that the Jesus person indeed really has existed

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: this must have come from something that really happened

[13:53] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:53] Gemma Allen: he has been documented in historical writings outside the bible

[13:53] herman Bergson: But again....let's stick to Islamic philosophy now :-)

[13:53] Gemma Allen: and the year is within 4

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:53] Gemma Allen: true

[13:53] Merlin: yes please Herman

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cant just have been a myth someone just wrote down ike a book author

[13:53] Gemma Allen: no bejita

[13:54] herman Bergson: I think it is best to await the next lecture to get on the right track again :-))

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ok good idea

[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: agreed :)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ty

[13:54] herman Bergson: So, thank you all for your participation....

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:54] Gemma Allen: will try to be on time tuesday

[13:54] Zanicia: Thank you Herman

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: wow this was great

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:54] herman Bergson: Have a nice weekend you all ^_^

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ot more to think about

[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for the insight. Lovely weekend to you too

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

516: Why would Islamic Philosophy trouble you?

In  my  previous lecture I said : “I can’t help it, but words like “Islam” or “Islamic” carry rather unpleasant connotations for me.”

Everyone of you knows that just a single unwelcome remark or picture about Islam has lead to massive riots in certain countries and all kinds of fatwas and death threads towards the person(s) responsible for it.

So, what is the trouble with these people or with Islamic philosophy, especially in the light of the extensive quote in my previous lecture, which more than a thousand years ago already emphasized “REASON” as the core of Islamic thinking?

Dr. Abdelwahab M. Elmessiri  from Ain Shams University in Cairo wrote in 1997 on the pages of the www. muslimphilosophy.com website about one of the Islamic discourses:

-quote-

(One is) a populist salvationist “messianic” discourse. This is the discourse of the overwhelming majority of the Muslim masses that have instinctively realized that the processes of modernization, secularization, and globalization do the umma (Muslim community) no good and bring no real reform. 

These masses have observed that these processes are in essence nothing but processes of Westernization, that rob the umma of its religious and cultural heritage, giving it nothing in return, and that have only led to further colonial hegemony and class polarization within society. 

Adhering and clinging to Islam, which they know well, the masses encapsulate themselves within their Islamic heritage, cry for help, and hope for salvation from Allah. But they are incapable of contributing new ideas or organizing political movements. 

Such a discourse frequently expresses itself in the form of spontaneous and, at times, violent acts of protest against all forms of radical Westernization and colonial invasion.

- end quote -

The core of the problem is the thread of Westernization. But what does that mean? The introduction of standards of our prosperous and high tech, highly educated Western societies?

I don’t think so. The roots of Westernization go way back into history. About 55 A.D. wrote the apostle, Paul to the Galatians: “But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” (Gal. 3:23)

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:28)

This was according the American-British historian Larry Siedentop in is resent book “Inventing the Individual” the fist time in human history, that homo sapiens comes to the conclusion that we all are equal.

As Paul says, before we were kept under the law, which may be traditions, tribal rules, social inequality rules and so on, and now we are all equal in Christ Jesus.

Tho christianity wasn’t exactly the religion itself that took this idea of individuality to the letter (All christians are equal, but some christians are more equal :-), yet this concept of individuality developed through the centuries in Europe.

It developed from “all equal for God” into the more secular concept of “all equal for the law”. In the long run, this led to the rule of law and fundamental rights, rights that people “by nature 'have, simply because they are humans. 

The equality of all human beings involves the "invention of the individual”. That equality means namely that your value does not depend on your gender (male or female), ethnicity (jew or gentile) or social status (slave or free).

I know this equality is not yet reality anywhere on this globe, but at some places it is at least more real than in other places and in any case it is already real on paper in the articles of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

“1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”

2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. 

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.”

And this invention of the individual is the fundamental “threat” to all cultures, some of which even never came to the idea of human equality. 

And calling it Westernization doesn’t justify at all , that you may think that you have the right to kill those who don’t share your religion, or throw homosexuals from the highest building, or that a society has to consist of castes, and so on…

This however is only modern history. When Arab philosophy reached full development in the 9th century there existed no Westernization, which explains why al-Razi could assume that reason is the basis of Islamic philosophy.

The Discussion

[13:24] Merlin: Phew

[13:24] Gemma Allen: right

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] .: Beertje :.: wow

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: thats some stuff

[13:25] Nectanebus: Well, I'm sure there's more to Westernization than individuality, but it's one viewpoint to take.

[13:25] Gemma Allen: sad history

[13:25] herman Bergson: Take your time to digest it :-)

[13:25] Gemma Allen: you are treating this as a philosophy then as opposed to a relligion?

[13:25] .: Beertje :.: *burbs*..oops sorry

[13:26] Gemma Allen: i missed the first class on it

[13:26] Gemma Allen: i think

[13:26] herman Bergson: True Nectanebus.....

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: are those muslems afraid of western religions?

[13:27] Gemma Allen: I think it is more the culture

[13:27] Gemma Allen: western culture

[13:27] herman Bergson: I think the point is that human equality threatens a lot of hierarchical power structures in certain societies

[13:27] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:27] Gemma Allen: oh wow

[13:27] Nectanebus: I think it's more the erodation of moral values by gradual Americanization of the globe

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: they try to protect their culture by destroying all other different ones basically

[13:27] vladimir Hoxley: But if Christianity is the source of individualism, what is particular about Islam that reacts to it compared to Hinduism, Buddhism etc?

[13:28] Gemma Allen: i dont even think Paul believed what he was saying

[13:28] Gemma Allen: I have always looked on him as anti woman

[13:28] herman Bergson: And that Nectanebus is something which I dont agree with :-)

[13:28] Kimmy Jannings: why america

[13:29] herman Bergson: If you study the philosophy of ethics there is no erodation of moral thinking at all

[13:29] Nectanebus: please extrapolate a little there, I'm not sure I follow...

[13:29] herman Bergson: What is erodating our culture is the dominance of economics...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that i can agree with

[13:29] Gemma Allen: capitalism maybe

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: money is more worth then a life today

[13:30] herman Bergson: Human rights aren’t the highest good  even in our society..

[13:30] herman Bergson: Profit is....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: thats insane

[13:30] Nectanebus: Right, and you're saying capitalism isn't the modus operandi of american culture?

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: the more money the more value u have as person it seems today

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: nuts

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is why we exploit people in Bangladesh to make our clothes

[13:30] vladimir Hoxley: I agree Herman - the marketization of all value, see recent book by Michael Sandel

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: you cant set value on a person

[13:30] Merlin: I think America is very materialistic

[13:30] Kimmy Jannings: money always rules

[13:31] Merlin: money can mean life or death in usa

[13:31] herman Bergson: Indeed Vladimir....people should read Sandel !!!!!

[13:31] Gemma Allen: true merlin

[13:31] Gemma Allen: but dont recognize it as such

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin..... and even your death might be good money....when you have a life insurance

[13:31] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:32] Merlin: hmm

[13:32] Gemma Allen: not for the insured

[13:32] Merlin: I am thinking about health cover

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the point Gemma...

[13:32] Merlin: medical treatment

[13:33] Gemma Allen: I think it is sad that there is so much disparity in the muslim culture

[13:33] herman Bergson: AIDS patients bought high life insurances and sold them then for big money to others based n the idea that that person would cash a huge profit from the death of the AIDS patient

[13:33] Gemma Allen: It is a good philosophy in many ways

[13:33] vladimir Hoxley: Still not sure what is particular about Islam that is reacting to modernism

[13:33] herman Bergson: That is very true Gemma.....

[13:34] Gemma Allen: I dont think a lot of aids patients did that tho because they had no money to pay after paying for their treatment

[13:34] herman Bergson: I would say the male based power structures of arabic culture

[13:34] Kimmy Jannings: which is totally wrong

[13:34] Kimmy Jannings: lol

[13:34] vladimir Hoxley: So it is the threat of feminism rather than the enlightenment?

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: woman are worth less than a pig there

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: indeed, in saudia arabia women are treated worse then trash

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: really sad

[13:35] Kimmy Jannings: in the west us girls are in control lol

[13:35] herman Bergson: it is the threat of human equality...independent of gender

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i dont get it

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: but its all about power and control i guess as usual

[13:35] herman Bergson: Just as the Declaration of Human Rights state

[13:36] herman Bergson: I htink so too Bejiita....

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: i think man are afraid to loose their control there

[13:36] Gemma Allen: but in saudi the women live extremely well if married to the right persons

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and since males are often more rough then women they take advantage of that to push women down in the mud

[13:36] Gemma Allen: but

[13:36] herman Bergson: Just the idea that women are not allowed to drive a car...but it is reality in Saudi Arabia

[13:36] Gemma Allen: still as chattel

[13:36] Gemma Allen: right!!

[13:37] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:37] Kimmy Jannings: omg

[13:37] Gemma Allen: they are arrested if driving

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes its so weird

[13:37] Kimmy Jannings: im not going there

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: make s me really sad

[13:37] Gemma Allen: there is a bigg movement

[13:37] Kimmy Jannings: mind u u aint seen me drive

[13:37] Gemma Allen: women drivers

[13:37] vladimir Hoxley: but dont tar all islam with Wahabbism

[13:37] Gemma Allen: protesting

[13:37] herman Bergson: You can if you have no drivers license Kimmy :-))

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: you have to wear a Djlebbah there Kim

[13:37] Gemma Allen: driving all over

[13:37] Gemma Allen: at certain times

[13:37] Merlin: Saudi Arabia are supposed to be a big ally of USA and UK

[13:37] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:37] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:37] Gemma Allen: we know

[13:38] Gemma Allen: they really are too

[13:38] Gemma Allen: sad

[13:38] Merlin: that was true once of Iraq I think

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: its just cause of that damn oil

[13:38] Merlin: and Iran etc etc

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: for their cars

[13:38] Merlin: Pakistan now

[13:38] Kimmy Jannings: its just we are better drivers

[13:38] Gemma Allen: oh in iraq the women were much more free b4 the wars then they are now!!!!!!

[13:38] herman Bergson: But I think you should not evaluate situations from details of certain cultures...

[13:38] Gemma Allen: many highly educated

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: its really complicated this

[13:39] Gemma Allen: very complicated

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: but something must change

[13:39] herman Bergson: You should think about the individuality and equality as an a priori of human existence

[13:39] Gemma Allen: it will

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hope so for sure

[13:39] Kimmy Jannings: yes women rule

[13:39] Gemma Allen: if you look at the history or women in the usa 100 years ago was a huge battle for recognition

[13:39] Gemma Allen: huge

[13:39] Gemma Allen: women arrested

[13:39] herman Bergson: and this a priori is reached at least to some extend in western democracy...

[13:39] Gemma Allen: for demonstrating

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:40] Nectanebus: equality a priori? That's half of what got us into this mess..

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....and they WON!

[13:40] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:40] Gemma Allen: but it was not easy

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: it was not until 1950 that woman here in the Netherlands got the right to vote

[13:40] Gemma Allen: and still

[13:40] Merlin: Ive noticed through SL that women in USA seem to be a bit downtrodden compared to UK

[13:40] Gemma Allen: women earn 77 cents for every 1.00 a man makes

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: we are not as modern as we think we are

[13:40] herman Bergson: Equality in the sense of equal rights Nectanabus...

[13:40] Gemma Allen: that is correct!!!

[13:41] Kimmy Jannings: here in the uk we earn the same

[13:41] herman Bergson: And indeed...if you look at all the facts

[13:41] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:41] Gemma Allen: UK women has the same battle

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: inddeed thats also goes here in Sweden, women earn less then male

[13:41] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:41] Gemma Allen: you see

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: even i seem going in right direction still differences

[13:41] Kimmy Jannings: but then i dont know any male midwifes to ask

[13:41] herman Bergson: our ideas are nice, but we ourselves are still rather limited gifted in handling these ideas

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: as if we woman don't need the same money as man do

[13:41] Gemma Allen: eventually I believe the muslim countries will have the same happening

[13:42] Gemma Allen: some already have if they do not go backwards

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Turkey was a great example

[13:42] herman Bergson: I htink so too Gemma....but ut will take some centuries

[13:42] Gemma Allen: but things are changing there not for the best at the present time

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hmm turkey, one of few places you can safely visit in middle east nowadays

[13:42] vladimir Hoxley: Remember there have been secular muslim states eg Ataturk's Turkey

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:43] Kimmy Jannings: its shocking what muslims do to a women’s body down there

[13:43] Gemma Allen: and so was sadam husseins iraq

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: been there once and loved it, the entire middle east could be a paradise if it wasn’t for all this that happens all around

[13:43] vladimir Hoxley: But Erdogan in Turkey is a reactionary

[13:43] herman Bergson: Egypte claims to be secular too Vladimir....

[13:43] Merlin: aaagh Egypt!

[13:43] herman Bergson: That is their big fight with this Muslim Brotherhood

[13:43] Kimmy Jannings: ive seen it

[13:43] Kimmy Jannings: india is the same

[13:44] vladimir Hoxley: Yes, but unfortunately there seems to be either the choice of islamism or military rukle there herman

[13:44] herman Bergson: India is really complex with its castes system

[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed Vladimir...

[13:44] Kimmy Jannings: they away part of her bits so she doesn’t have pleasure from sex

[13:44] vladimir Hoxley: We were too optimistic about the Arab Spring

[13:44] vladimir Hoxley: optimistic

[13:44] Gemma Allen: well that is prevalent in many African countries also

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: that i also dont get, why take away a such thing, thats awful to do

[13:45] Merlin: They call it FGM ... often in the news here

[13:45] Gemma Allen: our western enlightenment (ha) cannot understand the cultures that move slowly

[13:45] Merlin: Female Genital Mutilation

[13:45] herman Bergson: circumcision...yes

[13:45] Kimmy Jannings: ive seen it when delivering babies

[13:45] herman Bergson: That is not a specifically muslim rule...

[13:45] Gemma Allen: oh dear

[13:46] Gemma Allen: no

[13:46] Kimmy Jannings: some are really bad

[13:46] vladimir Hoxley: Sorry have to go. Food for thought today Herman on your statement about a priori equality and individualism. Not sure about that but stimulating

[13:46] herman Bergson: also in christian countries and animistic countries it occures

[13:46] Gemma Allen: imagine the pain omg

[13:46] Gemma Allen: OMG!!!

[13:46] herman Bergson: ok Vladimir...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ooow yes most sensitive part of your body

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ooow

[13:47] Kimmy Jannings: they have pain in child birth too

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: byr then vlad

[13:47] Gemma Allen: more pain?

[13:47] Kimmy Jannings: yes

[13:47] vladimir Hoxley: bye

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: can imagine that

[13:47] herman Bergson: the right of the person to his or her own body....

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: ans all in the name of Allah?

[13:48] Gemma Allen: nono

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: sexual pleasure is a natural thing and a horrible thing to be taken from you, i dont get why they do a thing like that

[13:48] Kimmy Jannings: the idea behind some of it is they wont sleep around

[13:48] herman Bergson: no no Beertje ..not only Allah...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: seems feeling good and be happy is a no no in these cultures

[13:48] Gemma Allen: we sidetracked ot other cultures

[13:48] Gemma Allen: for the men it is

[13:48] herman Bergson: It is a cultural phenomenon not just a religious one...

[13:49] herman Bergson: We dont know where the idea came from....is a mystery...

[13:49] Nectanebus: This thread is too off-topic

[13:49] Gemma Allen: true

[13:49] herman Bergson: But I think we are loosing ourselves in details....

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm head spins now

[13:49] Kimmy Jannings: lol

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: advanced stuff indeed

[13:50] herman Bergson: Time to take the thoughts home with you and think it over....

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:50] Kimmy Jannings: aww poor bejiita

[13:50] herman Bergson: or re  read them in the blog

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: but i think i have some hang on it at least

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes the blog is a good thing to re check on

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:50] Gemma Allen: to review

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: a lot to think about again

[13:50] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation again....

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: the only thing i want is for everything and everyone to be equal without wars bombs ect

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: a good world

[13:51] Kimmy Jannings: thank you sir

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: dankjewel Herman ㋡

[13:51] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:51] Kimmy Jannings: may i ask if anyone wants something funny

[13:51] Merlin: bye everyone

[13:51] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:51] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:52] Gemma Allen: i think I will be here thursday

[13:52] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma :-))

[13:52] .: Beertje :.: welterusten en tot donderdag

[13:52] herman Bergson: dag dag :-))

[13:53] Kimmy Jannings: sorry if i got carried away

[13:54] herman Bergson smiles

[13:54] herman Bergson: As long as I dont carry you away Kimmy all is well :-)

[13:55] Kimmy Jannings: lol