690: Our philosophical theme in my Newspaper...

My newspaper presented me with an interesting article, which made me think of my personal philosophical stand and how I see myself today.

   

BEGIN QUOTE - For many, for millennia man has been the crown on creation. 

   

Whether that creation was called the outcome of a blind genetic evolution process, or a creative design of an almighty maker, 

   

or something in between, did not have a negative influence on the status of man. 

  

But this once undisputed human privilege is increasingly being put into a new perspective. 

     

Man is a being who distinguishes himself from other animals by .... yes, by what actually? 

  

By language? Culture? Rationality or intelligence? Scientific research into language, culture, social and problem solving behavior 

   

and the use of technology among animals increasingly indicates that the difference between human and non-human animals is rather gradual than fundamental. 

    

And not only non-human animals gnaw at the chair legs of the human self- and worldview. It is at the same time overgrown with plant and artificial intelligence. 

   

Intelligence is no longer reserved for man. Man, it seems, can no longer close his eyes for this insight. 

  

But what does it mean? What we see is that we increasingly recognize a kind of inwardness among non-human beings. 

   

The world around us also possesses capacity to act and forms of reflection and intelligence. 

  

That is a farewell to the idea that only man is an animated being, which was valid for centuries in our Greek-European culture. 

   

We were very attached to the image of the animal as a machine, a legacy of Descartes. 

   

In biology, animal behavior must always have a function, and within behaviorism it is not even more than a matter of stimulus and response. 

   

At the same time, it is precisely those things which are definitely machines, like computers and robots, 

  

which by machine learning appear to become independent and eventually perhaps even self-aware. The dream or nightmare of many. -END QUOTE

   

It is interesting to notice, how this text relates to all those themes we have discussed here. It is in my newspaper today!

   

We become more and more aware of the fact, that having a self or self-awareness can no longer be regarded as a unique feature of homo sapiens.

   

Maybe defining our Self based on introspection, first-person-authority or interpretation or self-regulation is too narrow.

    

Suppose we accept the thought, that everything has an absolute drive to persist. In that way  also plants and animals have a kind of inwardness.

   

This is only a few steps away from the philosophical ideas of Spinoza (1632 - 1677) we discussed in a previous project.

   

Thank you for your attention again….^_^

 The Discussion

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which newspaper?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Trouw

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, thank you

[13:28] herman Bergson: National newspaper

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

[13:29] herman Bergson: hmmm..no thanksgiving here....:-)

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well we will see where we go from this idea then

[13:29] herman Bergson: pitty :-)

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:29] herman Bergson grins

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] herman Bergson: Well what IS interesting is that people begin to realize what eco systems are....

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh

[13:30] herman Bergson: Plants are way smarter than we think for instance

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes they warn eachother

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even atoms

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...things like that....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] Peli (peli.dieterle) is online.

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( do NOT grow in Beertje's garden )

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:31] CB Axel: I have a picture I like showing ego vs eco. °͜°

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause she is watering with chlorine or what?

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bad soil:(

[13:32] herman Bergson: Soemone said....if you define wisdome as the insight to control your situation, to adapt so that you can preserve your kind, plants are wiser than man

[13:32] herman Bergson: animals too

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dissolve some ammonia in water, that gives some nitrogen adittion, however i think olants need other nutrients as well

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but nitro is important

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha cb

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: end of hierarchy?

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i guess so

[13:33] CB Axel: Yes, Herman, but I can outrun the plants. °͜°

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can you outrun a triffid? if you know what that is

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however triffids are not real

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically walking carnivorous angle trumpets or orcidea

[13:34] CB Axel: When I come across a triffid, we'll find out. LOL

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looks nice outside

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (in science fiction) one of a race of predatory plants that are capable of growing to a gigantic size and are possessed of locomotor ability and a poisonous sting.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:35] herman Bergson whispers: sorry CB cant use it because it is NO COPY/NO MOD

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we all got ione

[13:36] CB Axel: I'll send you a copy one. I did send it to everyone here

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): herman

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: I see :-)

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have one already Herman

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw the movie day of the triffids recently

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one of the comments i read was " you know you have messed enough with nature when you are being chased by shrubbery"

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well animals chase us now

[13:37] CB Axel: LOL, Bejiita.

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): mosquitoes do

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes they chase me always when i try play golf and disturb be

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will be interesting to see how the whole thing progresses

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): itching like hell

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:38] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Gemma Cleanslate donated L$50. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:39] herman Bergson: I am sorry....got some lag...

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do animals have a self as well?

[13:39] herman Bergson: maybe caused by my snow outside ^_^

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think they do but dont know it

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we know it

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): self aware they certainley are in some way

[13:39] herman Bergson: Some animals definitely have self awareness Beertje

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cats and dogs definitley are

[13:40] herman Bergson: But in our cause we add TIME to our Self....

[13:40] herman Bergson: animals have memories, but I wonder if they have them in an historical perspective...

[13:40] CB Axel: I'm not sure about cats. They sure get confused by mirrors. °͜°

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and lasers

[13:40] herman Bergson: like we see our Self in relation to time

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and tv

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but my cat would watch other animals on tv

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but dogs like lasers as well, at least many i have met love chasing a laser spot around

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my parrot remembers the faces and voices from people who had them before I had him

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is called the workout the anomals from the couch method

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): animals

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes..but I guess the parrot does not know how long ago it was that it saw that face or person

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did everyone get to read the atlantic article on second life?

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no I guess not, but he remembers things from 25 years ago

[13:42] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is offline.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): laser in one hand, beer in the other and the dog and cat chasing sound like crazy while you relax

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): around

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahaha Bejiita

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: the parrot may not - the elephant does

[13:43] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.

[13:43] CB Axel: Sounds like a great workout to me, Bejiita. LOL

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): specialy for you Bejiita

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they get slim, and you get chubby

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hihi did you see the Atlantic article??

[13:43] herman Bergson: the elephant has a certain level of self awareness too Ciska

[13:43] CB Axel: But do elephants know how long it has been since they saw someone?

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): memory like an elephant is a term, if that is true or a myth i dont know

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah cb that i dont know

[13:44] herman Bergson: They don’t have wristwatches that large CB

[13:44] CB Axel: Or do they just know they remember that they remember?

[13:44] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): THAT wristwatsh id like to see

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): !

[13:44] CB Axel: Don't be silly. Elephants just look at their phones.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines pokemon hunting elephant)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Interesting issue....awareness of time in a chronological sense.....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxX3E5asZA4 )

[13:45] herman Bergson: maybe that is what makes us different from other animals :-)

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on the list anyway

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): time is an invent of human

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....we make history.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: we record our past too

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: well this will be interessting for following generations

[13:47] herman Bergson: maybe an interesting subject......the philosophy of Time :-))

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: I guess there will be a different view of history now... that we have history in form of blogs and data

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a difficult one :)

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: of so many people

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: history will not be written of only winners any longer

[13:48] herman Bergson: yes indeed Ciska....

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: the losers will write it too

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): keeping it will be easy tho with computer and cloud

[13:48] CB Axel: That will be nice, Ciska.

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sorting that is the issue

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes - more wholesome

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and all this amount of data....

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: incredible

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes....what that will bring us....?

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when my database server is programmed and ready well maybe can keep it there

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think it a bit too small for that though

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): data base servers will be out of date by that time

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh oh

[13:50] CB Axel: Maybe in the future, with very powerful computers, someone will be able to sort through all the data and make sense of our current society.

[13:50] CB Axel: I sure can't make sense of it now.

[13:50] herman Bergson: what will be next Beertje?

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh no

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't know, I can't see the future

[13:50] CB Axel: It'll take quantum computers.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): woke to a discussion on BBC about ayn rand having us live her philosophy in uSA at this time

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): terrible alarm clock

[13:51] herman Bergson: oh dear....so true

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well trump is basically partially that already

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and perhaps elsewhere too as we go along

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ayn rand would be really bad though, a land of greed

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): destroying our planet

[13:53] herman Bergson: The rich elite controls the US now and has made it vansish from the international political stage

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so many look at their selves as products of rand

[13:53] Second Life: нαяℓєу qυιии (FannyZeta) is now known as Oɴᴏʀɪɴᴀ.

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): followers

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but look at Germany and the problems merkel is having right now with the same people

[13:54] herman Bergson: Europe talks with China now....

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all scary

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): china is rising

[13:55] herman Bergson: We're a bit off topic now....:-)

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you all for the nice party!!!! was really good .. i almost missed my rezz day totally

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how it should be

[13:55] herman Bergson: So maybe good to end our discussion here :-)

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thank you   herman

[13:55] CB Axel: Us? Off topic? Never! LOL

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next Tuesday then

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting as always

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation...

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah cb but he does not type in caps as he used to in the old days

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed......^_^

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): off topic WAS TERRIBLE

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday then

[13:56] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): NO THURSDAY

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Gemma

[13:56] CB Axel: See you all next week.

[13:56] herman Bergson: NO THURSDAY!

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman & Class:-) and cheers! gemma

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: take care everyone

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

689: How good do we know our Self ?

In the previous lecture I brought to your attention the “First-Person-Perspective” - theory of Richard Moran.

   

The Self as a permanent witness, searching for reasons and arguments why you mean what you mean.

   

This is however a rather rationalist approach of our Self. The theory sounds attractive but there are some shortcomings.

   

This First person perspective deals with what we think. But what do we know about ourselves in relation to what we feel?

   

If you say, that you are a liberal, you look outside into the world and you point out the reasons why it is your conviction.

    

But what when you are in love, or feel ashamed or relieved. Sometimes you even can not find any reasonable argument why you feel that way.

   

And there is another problem. We may easily say of ourselves that we are no racists. We regard all people as equal.

     

But is that really true? Are we so broad minded? You may be surprised to discover how many prejudices are active in your mind. These are called implicit biases or prejudices.

    

Let's start with a somewhat lugubrious riddle: a father and his son are involved in a car accident. 

   

The father dies on the spot, the son is seriously injured. He is taken to the hospital, where the surgeon present is shocked and stutters: "This boy is my son!" 

  

How is this possible? Any idea???

     

If the right answer to this riddle did not immediately come to mind, this is probably because you are unconsciously regarding surgery as a male profession. 

   

Because of this association it does not occur to you that the surgeon in question is not the father, but the mother of the boy. 

   

We are all familiar with the existence of implicit prejudices, such as hidden in stereotypes. When you think of the caring parent, 

   

you think of a mother who is busy with diapers and baby bottles. 

    

When you think of a doctor, you think of a man in a white coat with a stethoscope around his neck. 

    

Because these prejudices are explicit, we can basically correct them: a man can also take care of the children, just as a woman can be a doctor. 

    

But there are also implicit or unconscious stereotypes that play a role in our thinking and acting, and that can have vicious consequences. 

   

An implicit bias is a judgment about something or someone that is based on a stereotype and that you are not aware of. 

   

It is a judgment that is not accessible to you, and that you literally have nothing to say about. This makes it difficult to correct, while it does affect your behavior.

   

They did experiments with this phenomenon. They hid the names of applicants, because it had become clear,

   

that when HRM- people saw the name ‘Mohammed’ or ‘Mustafa’ the letter  almost automatically end up on the ‘REJECTED” pile. 

   

So they anonymised the letters of application to escape this unconscious bias.

   

If you’re interested in your own biases, do the tests Harvard is offering and have fun and get to know yourself more.

    

Thank you for your attention again….and for the tests….go to https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

The Discussion

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry I missed half of the lecture, I crashed

[13:22] CB Axel: That will be fun.

[13:22] herman Bergson: I took one myself....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and so did I

[13:22] herman Bergson: The one on religion

[13:23] herman Bergson: But that was not revealing an implicit bias at all ...I knew what I was thinking about the subject :-))

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that first one got me for sure, indeed it seems even I who think high of equality feel for that one, maybe indeed because no matter what, the first image that comes into my mind when I hear the word Surgeon is a male character even I think indeed women can be equally good surgeons

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): probably cause thats what you see in hospital series ect

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Bejiita...

[13:24] oola Neruda: my niece is a doctor and her husband is a stay at home father / musician

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only after a few seconds it occurred to me

[13:25] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Gemma Cleanslate donated L$50. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that was a mind working test for sure

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will check them out later

[13:26] herman Bergson: My test result on religion bias :-))

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:26] herman Bergson smiles

[13:26] herman Bergson: I was pleased with it :-))

[13:27] herman Bergson: But the interesting fact is indeed....

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you get the result immediately?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess it works like one of these computer operated FB tests but more refined

[13:28] herman Bergson: that what we say is not always shown in what we do, due to implicit biases we have and are not aware of

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Beertje

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall look at the mm later when I can think

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok:)

[13:29] herman Bergson: Was a bit sneaky of me to choose religion....

[13:29] herman Bergson: I am not biased about that subject at all...I have my opinions there ^_^

[13:30] CB Axel: So you weren't surprised by your preference for Judaism?

[13:30] herman Bergson: No...the choice was Judaism or Islam....so easy choice for me :-)

[13:30] CB Axel: If you had shown a preference for Islam, would that had surprised you?

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no other choices?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Teh fun of these tests is that they monitor the speed of your reaction to some questions...

[13:31] herman Bergson: How quick do youpress a key on your keyboard...

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as fast as I can

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): without introducing typos or bugs

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but seems i do anyway

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:32] herman Bergson: no  no...

[13:32] herman Bergson: you only need to press the 'E" or 'I" to make your choice

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or you mean how long i wonder over one of these questions?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Im gonna try later and see

[13:33] herman Bergson: you have to connect 'good' or 'bad' to concepts...

[13:33] herman Bergson whispers: Is fun...:-)

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we can't think it over?

[13:34] herman Bergson: no...

[13:34] herman Bergson: immediate answer is demanded

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i can say i have more negative connections to islam because of all terror wars and shit is connected to it, however I also know that this is probably not the true or real version of Islam

[13:35] oola Neruda: you are right...it is a distortion of Islam

[13:35] herman Bergson: I know Bejiita...same here...but yet...:-)

[13:35] CB Axel: And Arabs in Israel probably have a bias against Judaism.

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:35] CB Axel: To Arabs, the Jews are the terrorists.

[13:35] herman Bergson: I bet they have CB :-)

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of them were in past days

[13:36] oola Neruda: nods

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): blowing up a hotel lobby is terrorism

[13:36] herman Bergson: But the main point of today was, that we can have implicit biases we are not aware of, so how well do we know our Self

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am sure

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it seems i have one indeed according to that first test

[13:37] herman Bergson: OK..any questions or remarks left?

[13:37] herman Bergson: unsaid?

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its what first comes to mind

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is the bias

[13:38] herman Bergson: often it is Bejiita, I think

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like that surgeon = male thing

[13:38] herman Bergson: Like your hair...:-)))

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:38] herman Bergson: Guy must be nuts....

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh...Bejiita is a normal nice guy...oops

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sayan

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a happy and a bit crazy saiyan guy

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is special:)

[13:39] herman Bergson: normal

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats me

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really human

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at rast im a bit unique even rl

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we all are in some way i guess

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as it should be

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): last

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): visit the lea Faces

[13:40] herman Bergson: So true Bejiita...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is very interesting

[13:40] herman Bergson: What is that Gemma?

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): based on a survey of members 2015

[13:40] oola Neruda: what is the..... lea faces?

[13:41] CB Axel: I need to visit LEA sometime soon.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): an installation in the Lindens arts

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes you shoudl

[13:41] CB Axel: I haven't been there in a long time.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wil lpass the lm

[13:41] herman Bergson: Where is it?

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ive been there some times but a while now since

[13:41] Second Life: Gemma Cleanslate gave you LEA23 Faces (that we see) by ilyra chardin.

[13:42] herman Bergson: thnx....

[13:42] CB Axel: Go when you have a lot of time. It covers something like 20 regions. °͜°

[13:42] herman Bergson: oh my

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its kind of big indeed I think

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto this exhibit

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): instead of ging to Schier you go to LEA :)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only one

[13:43] CB Axel: That one exhibit won't be that big. °͜°

[13:43] CB Axel: But they are usually all worth checking out.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the entrance

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Gemma

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to this exhibit

[13:43] herman Bergson: oh dear....homework.....:-))

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): llol

[13:44] oola Neruda: lol

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well it sort of fits with the idea of knowing self

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or others

[13:44] herman Bergson: OK...everybody off to Lea....Class dismissed :-)))

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check it

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all again...

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): enjoy

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but first i m gonna attend a steampunk theme party

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] herman Bergson: Have fun Bejiita :-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

688: The Self gets shape....

“For millions of years, many creatures have had an active mind, but only in those who developed a self, 

    

capable of functioning as a witness of the mind, its existence was recognized, and only after the mind had developed the language and could tell about it , it became widely known that the mind exists. 

     

The Self as a witness is an additional ability that reveals in each of us the presence of events that we call 'mental'. 

     

We would like to understand how that extra power has been created.” This is how Antonio Damasio formulates in “Self comes to Mind” (2010)

   

Slowly but steadily the Self gets shape. I even dare to say, that we KNOW things about our Self now.

   

To begin with, the Self is not  a “something” or a special sense, but it can be regarded as an ongoing proces, a special function of the mind.

    

A mind which lacks this witness, is still a mind. But because our Self is the only natural means to know our mind, are we completely depending  on its presence, its powers and limitations.

   

The Interpretations like Gilbert Ryle from the previous lecture, assumed that we do not have direct access to our mental states, 

   

but conclude that we have certain beliefs, desires and intentions based on perceptions of our physical behavior. 

     

An alternative view of self-knowledge and first-person-authority is encountered in Richard Moran's work. 

   

He is a Harvard professor of  Philosophy of Mind and Moral Philosophy. Moran's theory is based on the idea 

  

that there is a direct link between first-person-authority and actively determining what you think of something. 

  

Imagine someone asking you if you think there will be a Third World War. What are you doing in such a case? 

  

Proponents of the introspection theory suggest that you can answer this question by looking inside, 

  

and looking for the conviction that a Third World War is coming or not. 

  

But according to Moran something else happens: you do not look inside but outside.       

   

You do not ask yourself a question about something inside you, but instead you look at what's happening in the world. 

   

You ask yourself this question: "Are there any reasons to believe that there will be a Third World War?" 

   

Then you make a decision based on various events in the world that could give you reason to think that this is the case or not and come to a conclusion: "No, I do not think there will be a Third World War. ' 

   

You answer a question about what you think of something, a question about your inner world by answering another question about the outside world. 

  

Or, in other words, you answer a question about self-knowledge in terms of 'world knowledge'. 

  

What Moran is all about is, that it's Your business what you think of something. That constitutes your Self. 

  

When you say what you think, you do not act as a passive spectator of your own mental states. 

    

You appoint yourself as an authority in this field, as an active witness. Interpretationists, as we saw in the previous lecture, claim that self-knowledge is a matter of interpretation.     

    

We know ourselves in the same indirect way as we know others, by observing our behavior from a distance, and connecting certain conclusions. 

    

We therefore also say that the theory of interpretation presupposes a 'third person perspective' on yourself, so the perspective of an outsider. 

   

Moran, on the other hand, emphasizes that we initially know ourselves from a "first person perspective”, ​​as a thinking and acting subject.

    

From this first-person perspective, you do not wonder, "What's in my mind?" But "What should I believe as autonomous thinking creatures?"

      

Moran's theory is also called rationalistic or deliberative: self-knowledge is obtained by weighing reasons for or against a particular judgment. 

   

The question is what, for these reasons, you should believe as rational being about the advent of a Third World War. 

    

Or, to take another example, what you should think about the equality of men and women, young people and the elderly, Dutch and Moroccans. 

     

According to Moran, you can find out what you really think by thinking about the reasons for believing that people are equal. 

  

There is a certain amount of controlling power from such a thinking process: if you think there are indeed convincing reasons to believe that all men are equal, 

  

then you should conclude that you really feel this as a rational person. Otherwise, this leads to paradoxical statements, such as: "All people are equal, but I do not believe."

    

This sounds  all quite interesting:  the Self as a witness of the mind. The Self gets shape.

  

Thank you for your attention… ^_^

The Discussion

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:25] herman Bergson smiles

[13:25] herman Bergson: My pleasure Beertje :-)

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): difficult..I have to read it over

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes I understand...

[13:26] herman Bergson: The ida is that what you call yourself

[13:26] herman Bergson: is some kind of reasoning...looking outward for arguments of your opinions

[13:27] herman Bergson: Talking about a Self always gives us the feeling that there must be SOMETHING...

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: I disagree with Moran which might not surprise ;) - as to the why... thats complex.

[13:28] herman Bergson: I guess that us our first mistake...

[13:28] herman Bergson: You surprise me  Ciska ^_^

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: I do?;)

[13:28] CB Axel giggles

[13:28] herman Bergson: explain?

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: Morans self seems equivalent of the buddhist ego

[13:29] herman Bergson: ohh ...:-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: That's new to me...

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: from my point of view his self is the rationalized expression of a feeling

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: when u take the question : will there be a world war three?

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: there is nor "correct" answer to that of course until we have it ;)

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: that means that we start to rationalize all the information we have

[13:30] herman Bergson: his basic idea is that we constitute our self by looking outward for reasons why we have some opinion...

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: around the gut feeling

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: and then start to argue

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: because we simply cannot know

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): until trump and Kim start hurl nuclear bombs over the world but then it is too late and there will be no more minds cause we have all been blown up

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: ah

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so i really hope there will be no ww 3

[13:31] CB Axel: Yes. That's why there won't be a World War 3. °͜°

[13:31] herman Bergson: no no...there you seem to be wrong, Ciska..

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: thats exactly one reason  I disagree :  his basic idea is that we constitute our self by looking outward for reasons why we have some opinion...

[13:32] herman Bergson: There you are right....

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: my thesis is

[13:32] herman Bergson: for it can apply to such empirical issues like..is there coming a war or not....

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: we have an opinion and looking outward to verbalize it

[13:32] herman Bergson: But it doesn’t apply to feelings...

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: the verbalization is the point

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: its the hen egg question

[13:33] herman Bergson: I agree..he is to rationalist...

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: what’s there first - the feeling or the argumentation

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: and the truth is

[13:33] CB Axel: But in the case of a world war, I do look outside myself for what I think about the possibility of war.

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: in such questions...

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: the feeling is there

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: and we find arguments for it

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Cb....

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: so there is still a we...

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: who does that

[13:34] herman Bergson: his theory applies to such issues....

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: of course u do cb - but you use it to describe your feeling

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: which you already have

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: its a communicational thing

[13:35] CB Axel: My feeling is based on what I know about Trump and Kim and what's going on in the world.

[13:35] herman Bergson: But where did that feeling come from Ciska???

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: (and its the reason why I make a difference between consciousness and awareness)

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: thats the question

[13:35] herman Bergson: from the outside...

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: why?

[13:36] herman Bergson: because you read newspapers and follow the News on TV

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: obviously there will be different answers to the ww3 question...

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: some people will say yes

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: some no

[13:36] herman Bergson: of course

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: and both will have arguments

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: which go together with their own experiences in lfe

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: life

[13:37] herman Bergson: but that doesn’t change the fact that You have your own opinion about it...which is linked to your Self

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is you

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: opinion is based on feeling and experience

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: so the self is feeling and experience

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all that you perceive and you can then choose to communicate it to someone else

[13:38] herman Bergson: I think so yes

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): else

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: the strange thing about experience is... that you can connect it with wrong "sense"

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: in the sense of language

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: want an example?

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: (or does that go too far?)

[13:38] herman Bergson: plz?!

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tell us Ciska

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: ok a child which was abused early on in childhood by its parents... grows up to have a distorted view of love... the word love is connected to negative stuff which has happened to that child early one

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: so when that child does not learn to reflect early on

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: what often happens is

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: that love is connected for example with getting a beating

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: its "normal"

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: it does belong there

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then i get it

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: the feeling of the child is still

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: somehow this is wrong

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: and that leads to a lot of confusion

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: but the word love

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: might have another meaning for this becoming grown up

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: as for people who had caring homes

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: with no such things

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: so if you communicate with that person later on - and he or she has not learned to reflect that

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: they might be confused by how you use the word love

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: they might not be able to really express why

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: they see on tv its very different then what they experienced (!!!)

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: but if they haven’t learned how to reflect

[13:43] herman Bergson: I understand,,,,but what is the relation here with the Self as we experience it

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: they simply stunned.

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: the relation here lays in communication

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: the self exists without communication

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: its there

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: it consists out of experiences

[13:44] herman Bergson: yes

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: those experiences

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: it strings up with words

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: so it can exchange with other selves

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: how it does that

[13:45] CB Axel: So animals without language have no sense of self?

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: totally depends on the experience

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: thats the question cb

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: I would say they are aware

[13:45] herman Bergson: that is not true CB....a number of animals have a clear sense of a self

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing is for sure and that is that this person need to know about and experience what real love actually is, its a suh important thing to have

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and feel

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: but for consciousness - exchange about the awareness - they lack language

[13:46] CB Axel: I agree, Herman. I'm just trying to get my mind around what Ciska is saying.

[13:46] herman Bergson: mee too

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: yes bejiita - but its really hard for folks... there is an incredible film in german about this...

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s63mL7K7J2g)

[13:48] herman Bergson: But what is your point Ciska...that somepeople have a distorted self - image?

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: no

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: my point is that to exchange about consciousness we need language

[13:48] herman Bergson: ok

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: but what we express in the language does not describe the same experiences

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: because we connect experiences to words we get from others which can go "right " or wrong

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: the self consists of experiences

[13:50] CB Axel: True. I tend to look at people's behavior rather than their words to try to understand them.

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: the language distracts from that

[13:50] herman Bergson: as I said...it is a process not a thing

[13:50] herman Bergson: Indeed CB

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: I said I disagree with Moran - and that pretty much why ;)

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: rationalizing needs words

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: ,)

[13:51] herman Bergson whispers: Well every one can reread all argumentation on the blog :-)

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: sure

[13:52] herman Bergson: Guess we did a fine job again today ...:-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: So thank you all again for your participation...

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): gives me a lot to think

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting ideas as usual

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html