411: The Utopia of theFree Market - Neoliberalism

"TNT acquisition by UPS cost thousands of jobs"

That was a headline in my newspaper of last Saturday.

Formerly I wouldn't have read the article, but nowI see the utopia at work.

The situation is thus: UPS delivers parcels in the Netherlands and Belgium. TNT does the same. UPS wants to acquire TNT, not to increase its capacity, but to take over the customers of TNT. Delivery of parcels will be done by the existing UPS organization.

This means that a few thousand jobs become redundant. It means that people loose their jobs, while one of the things that give meaning to life in our society is participation, having a job.

Here you see the market at work. Profit maximization and stockholders are the main goals of an enterprise. That it creates employment and in this sense has a social function is just an accidental value.

Like Adam Smith said. That the baker bakes a bread, that can feed you  is just an added value. The main interest of the baker is his own profit and income, his self-interest.

Here we may ask the question, whether it is justified that a company just for the sake of increasing profit is allowed to create a social disaster for thousands of families. What ethics applies here?

This is the result of privatization  of the postal services in the Netherlands and something unique is happening now. 

The Dutch Senate has started in investigation into the effects of privatization of a number of previously state enterprises, like postal services and the national railways, energy and telecommunications.

Privatization of state enterprises and public services  was from the late eighties seen by politics as THE answer to all problems.

State enterprises were heavy and slow, the public service was inefficient and not transparent. All  misery would end, if the market would get a say. 

The prices would decrease, increase of quality, and previous public services would become innovative and customer-friendly.

Non of this has become really true. Therefore an investigation by a committee of the Senate is more than justified.

All this could happen due to the 10 commandments of neoliberalism as formulated in the Washington Consensus.

The concept and name of the Washington Consensus were first presented in 1989 by John Williamson, an economist from the Institute for International Economics, an international economic think tank based in Washington, D.C.

The consensus as originally stated by Williamson included ten broad sets of relatively specific policy recommendations:

1.Fiscal policy discipline, with avoidance of large fiscal deficits relative to GDP; 

2. Redirection of public spending from subsidies ("especially indiscriminate subsidies") toward broad-based provision of key pro-growth, pro-poor services like primary education, primary health care and infrastructure investment;

3. Tax reform, broadening the tax base and adopting moderate marginal tax rates;

4. Interest rates that are market determined and positive (but moderate) in real terms;

5. Competitive exchange rates;

6. Trade liberalization: liberalization of imports, with particular emphasis on elimination of quantitative restrictions (licensing, etc.); any trade protection to be provided by low and relatively uniform tariffs;

7. Liberalization of inward foreign direct investment;

8. Privatization of state enterprises;

9. Deregulation: abolition of regulations that impede market entry or restrict competition, except for those justified on safety, environmental and consumer protection grounds, and prudential oversight of financial institutions;

10. Legal security for property rights.

These have been the guidelines of many governments of many countries in the past 30 years. I guess you recognize some of the themes favored by your political parties (e.g. 3, 8 and 9).

Since 2008 we know that these commandments and neoliberalism have failed, like the opposite, communism, failed. Maybe in the next lecture I can formulate some ideas for a post neo liberalist society.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: There is no self regulating market

[13:21] herman Bergson: and there is no rationally choosing customer

[13:21] herman Bergson: That is a utopia....

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you....

[13:22] herman Bergson: Next thursday it will be the last lecture of the season and conclusion of this project

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:22] Femtasia Rexen: thank you

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: oki

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:22] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman

[13:22] Mistyowl Warrhol: ty

[13:23] CONNIE Eichel whispers: welcome thorberg...

[13:23] herman Bergson: My observation is that we have great trouble finding our way out of the present crisis....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: seems so it just continues

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Does anyone know a revolutionary economist in Aus callled Steve something?

[13:23] herman Bergson: because nobody has realized that the basic ideas were utopian

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: the company owners want more and more without caring for their employees at all

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: like they're machines

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: really sad development

[13:24] CONNIE Eichel: yep

[13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: I read an article comparing Big Business to the Mafia.. it is scary how much they are alike.

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is no longer true Bejiita…

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): economist in Aus called Steve something? Anyone?????

[13:24] herman Bergson: No Merlin.....

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh ok

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): He was very critical of the banks anyway

[13:25] herman Bergson: Steve Keen...

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): could be

[13:25] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Herman we are celebrating 60 years of Queen Elizabeth in UK. As such television programs are showing how things were when she ascended to the throne in 1952. When you compare living conditions in 1952 and 2012 talk of Failure seems to be stretching it a bit.

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Keen

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Good point Annie

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I was there (just)

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Nobody knows a solution for the problems. On long term it will be the question if civilization can survive. the nature limits the growth and we have to prove if we are able to react fairly

[13:26] herman Bergson: In a material sense you are right Annie....

[13:26] herman Bergson: We have created material prosperity...

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Thanks Beertje

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yw:)

[13:27] Mistyowl Warrhol: I disagree, in 50s, ppl could farm for food, etc. Today, ppl dont know how to do that nor is there land on which to do it.

[13:27] herman Bergson: In the first thirty years after WWII by building the social Wlefare state...

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If its him, he was interviewed or radio this week

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Today or yesterday

[13:27] Linda Bartavelle: neoliberalism was not the dominant doctrine in the 50s

[13:27] herman Bergson: No....neoliberalism took over when prosperity was at its height....

[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): The average livespan for a man in 1952 in England was 66 now it is 79 not bad for failure

[13:28] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): sorry about spelling

[13:28] herman Bergson: When money could make money...

[13:28] herman Bergson: in the 70s and 80s

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: we have to reduce our consumption, that is most important

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): What Annie is saying is relevant

[13:28] CONNIE Eichel: i wish being older... hehe

[13:28] herman Bergson: Then we went for selfishness in the Randian way...

[13:28] herman Bergson: we didn't need the social solidarity anymore

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: today we have a what we call in sweden, wear and throw away society

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: yes Bejiita

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: things break deliberately so we have to buy new and new all time

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): We call it 'disposable'

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: stuff don't last long so the manufacturers can make miney

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: while the scrap heals grow

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): is this a digression?

[13:29] Mistyowl Warrhol: true, in 50's, your watch breaks, you took it in to be repaired.. now, just toss is.

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they do that on purpose Bejiita

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is changing Bejiita.....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes they do

[13:30] herman Bergson: This Earth is a globe with limited resources....

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't believe in that 'planned obsolescence' idea

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: the industry created an artificial demand for their products

[13:30] herman Bergson: Unlimited growth of the economy as goal is an absurdity

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: before machines held virtually forever now no more then maybee some years

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: at least my tv works great'

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my monitor screen was build for 3 years..they told me..then it broke..I fixed it for 5 euro:)..

[13:30] Mistyowl Warrhol: in 50's ppl want enough to eat, today, they want more than their neighbor

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but if things last then they instead market new stuff in a way that make people throw away fully working stuff to get a newer model

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: a total waste

[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): But if everything lasted forever Bejiita what would the workforce do

[13:32] herman Bergson: I would advise….read your newspaper.....check for the signs that question what Bejiita says, that question the absolute  belief in the self regulating free market....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: well maybe but the thing is that it goes out of control

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: we must have a balance

[13:32] Lauren Nostram is online.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....a balance....

[13:33] herman Bergson: a balance between what....good issue to think about

[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: The question is.. is it too late to find balance, even if we could get ppl to do it?

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: today its just buy new buy new buy new all time

[13:33] herman Bergson: It is never too late Misty.....

[13:34] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bejiita have you ever seen the film (the man in the white coat" 1951?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Most economists thought that the Free Market really had it all....

[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: I hope what you say is true. but I see so much damage that can not be undone.

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: no but i recognize the title i think

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: sound familiar

[13:34] herman Bergson: so ..as if history had stopped and reached its endpoint....long live the free market...now everybody will get happy

[13:34] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): A man makes a coat which he thinks will be a boon fo society doesn't need cleaning will last forever

[13:35] Mariella Diesel (mariella.deezul) is online.

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well that is not the case....

[13:35] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): The unions and the business owners see it as a disaster

[13:35] herman Bergson: The financial crisis has awaken a lot of people....

[13:35] CONNIE Eichel: mayas were right, professor? hehe

[13:36] Linda Bartavelle: what you say sounds like what stalin said about communism in ussr in the 30s.. now we have communism, so happiness for all for ever

[13:36] herman Bergson: Greenspan was shocked by the observation that his idea of the free market was a real mistake,

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is different Linda....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: good that he realized that

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: 'at least

[13:37] herman Bergson: Every utopian ideology is inclined to totalitairism...

[13:37] herman Bergson: there is always a group of people who dont believe th in the utopia....

[13:37] CONNIE Eichel: yes, believe in the utopia, or die...

[13:37] herman Bergson: so they have to be re-educated....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: an utopia is always impossible

[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: maybe we all need to go back and live in caves for a while and readjust our ways of living LOL

[13:37] herman Bergson: Exactly CONNIE

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: its like building a perfect machine with no energy loss

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: impossible

[13:38] Linda Bartavelle: capitalism for the whole planet is not a utopia, it is reality.. but it doesn't bring happiness for all

[13:38] herman Bergson: The challenge for the future will be finding that balance

[13:38] herman Bergson: to get what Aristotle already called the good life...

[13:38] CONNIE Eichel: it is an utopia for owners, linda, at least

[13:39] herman Bergson: Capitalism in the sense of the belief in the free market indeed Linda

[13:39] herman Bergson: But we have to rethink our situation.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: our resources, redistribution of wealth...

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] herman Bergson: But that will be work for centuries...

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: it has spun out of control a bit now

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: centuries are too long Herman, we don't have so much time

[13:40] herman Bergson: reality has taught us a lesson Bejiita....

[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: Maybe if ppl would use their own brains and look at a whole picture and not just the bits, one side of the news had feeds them.. but now I am being an optimist :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Part of the people go on..business as usual....hoping for th the next bonus

[13:41] herman Bergson: other are in doubt....

[13:41] herman Bergson: read your newspaper....watch newsshows....and you see it everywhere

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes, seen some examples now recently

[13:42] herman Bergson: Where it will lead to I don't know....

[13:42] herman Bergson: I'll think about it for next lecture ^_^

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: oki

[13:43] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation again....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: interesting as usual :9

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: tnx Herman

[13:43] Femtasia Rexen: thank you Professor

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is offline.

[13:43] CONNIE Eichel: great class, i missed it :)

[13:43] Mistyowl Warrhol: TY.. much to think about :-)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you CONNIE

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon again bye

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] CONNIE Eichel: a pleasure :)

410: The Utopia of the Free Market - Keynes

From the end of the Great Depression until the early 1970s, Keynesian economics provided the main inspiration for economic policy makers in Western industrialized countries. 

The influence of Keynes (1883 - 1946)'s theories waned in the 1970s, due to stagflation, which is a situation in which the inflation rate is high and the economic growth rate slows down and unemployment remains steadily high.

It also waned because of  critiques from Milton Friedman, and Friedrich Hayek and other economists who were less optimistic about the ability of interventionist government policy to positively regulate the economy. 

From the early 1980s to 2008, the normative consensus among economists was that attempts at fiscal stimulus would be ineffective even in a recession, and the policy was rarely employed by the governments of advanced nations.  

In 2008 there was a rapid shift of opinion among prominent economists in favor of Keynesian stimulus, and from October policy makers began announcing major stimulus packages, in order to head off the possibility of a global depression. 

By early 2009 there was universal acceptance among the world's economic policy makers about the need for fiscal stimulus. 

Yet by late 2009 the consensus among economists began to break down, and in 2010 with a depression averted but unemployment in many countries still high, policy makers generally decided against any further stimulus policies.

With the end of the brief consensus for Keynesian policies, but with the neoliberal policies  still discredited, several commentators have predicted that the Macroeconomic domain will see a return to ideological struggles.  

Keynes's central theme was, that the modern capitalist economy does not automatically work at top efficiency, but can be raised to that level by the intervention and influence of the government.

It was Keynes's view that an over-reliance on maths is a mistake, because mathematical models will always depend on the validity of their underlying assumptions.

And one of these assumptions was the utopian idea, that man will always acts rationally and based on a rational awareness of his self-interest.

An other assumption was the workings of "the silent hand" as mentioned by Adam Smith, expressing the belief that the free market is self-regulating by itself eventually.

Modern mainstream macroeconomics has become closely integrated with maths, at the expense of other disciplines such as political economy and history.

Keynes put much emphasis on the role of uncertainty. Uncertainty refers to situations in which we have no statistical basis to go on.

In his opinion economics is not some kind of natural science with fixed mathematical models, 

but a moral science which has to take into account the peculiarities of human behavior. Ethics should once again have a role in guiding capitalism.

The big challenges of our future will be themes like the redistribution of wealth, the role of a government, in what sense is a free market economy not a utopia.

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you....

[13:19] herman Bergson: Little philosophy today and much economics ㋡

[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well it is a philosophy

[13:19] Mick Nerido: Can the European Union survive?

[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): makes more sense than adam smith

[13:20] herman Bergson: But  most important observation i s that in fact nobody knows how our economic system really works 

[13:20] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well it was interesting

[13:20] herman Bergson: When you read about financial markets, banks and stuff like that....

[13:20] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I've started to scroll the chat window back a bit and it saves the jumpyness

[13:21] herman Bergson: as an average citizen....you cant understand it anymore

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so trye

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: hmm indyes

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they say one thing and then do another... the banks

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:21] herman Bergson: and most important is the role of the government in this all...

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: its a mess for sure

[13:22] herman Bergson: The neoliberalist trends are destructive with respect to social cohesion, is my opinion...

[13:22] herman Bergson: the heavy emphasis on the individual who has to take care for himself

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): here that is not the liberal thought

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is the conservative thought

[13:23] Mick Nerido: Fear and the unknown drive the markets down it seems...

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman... What is the difference between a Liberal and a Neo Liberal in your terminology?

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: it is the question to find a new definition for a new social market economy, right?

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): liberals worry about everyone

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...in the US the word is used wrongly...

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol

[13:23] herman Bergson: they confuse liberals with libertarians I think

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hard to relate to the others

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well in that case, me too

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): libertarians want NO governmenbt

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Not exactly the same, but closely related

[13:24] herman Bergson: liberals too....

[13:24] herman Bergson: and theo liberalisme even stronger...

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Gemma, isnt that Liberals you mean?

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But not in the UK meaning

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no liberals democrats want more govennment

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): MORE help for education

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But in Herman's sense, where Ayn Rand is regarded as liberal

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): More taxes on the wealthy

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nonnono

[13:25] herman Bergson: US meaning of the word 'liberal' is historically not correct

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): super super conservative

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:25] herman Bergson: so confusing :-)

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but that is all it is

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well if you ask me what to do in the present situation....

[13:26] Clerisse Beeswing: If society was oneside it would be boring

[13:26] herman Bergson: I really dont know....except stop believing in the Utopia of the Free Market

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman... What is the difference between a Liberal and a Neo Liberal in your terminology?

[13:27] herman Bergson: make society more social....

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I am a real liberal here in the USA sense or the word

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Did I miss your answer?

[13:27] herman Bergson: liberalism originated from the theories of John Locke....and is focused on the individual and his rights....

[13:28] Mick Nerido: US Liberal Big Gov Consertive small Gov

[13:28] herman Bergson: neo liberalism (as far as I have understood) focuses more on the rights of the individual in relation to the role of the government...

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok

[13:29] herman Bergson: You could say that it is a counter movement agains the social welfare state as it developed in the 60s of the previous century

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): where can we find that definition on the web?

[13:29] herman Bergson: It is in Wiki....

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wil check it later

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: individual right sound good but it seem to mean that everyone just think of them selves and do not care for anyone else

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and that's a bad thing for sure

[13:29] herman Bergson: A good example of the neoliberal credo you find in the so called Washington Consensus of 1989

[13:30] Mick Nerido: Have to log out . Thanks Herman and all...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Mick

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: TC Mick

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: bye

[13:30] herman Bergson: Just look on Washington Consensus in Wikipedia...

[13:30] herman Bergson: Bye Mick

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:30] herman Bergson: There you find a list of 10 points....

[13:31] herman Bergson: one of the points is deregulation for instance....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Less government controll

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well in UK, the Liberal party was basically the opponent of the Conservative party,

[13:32] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll introduce the godfathers of neoliberalism , Friedman and Hayek

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] herman Bergson: then we'll look into the difference between liberalis and neo....mor ein detail

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ah ok

[13:33] herman Bergson: After that I'll come with one or two lectures in which we can evaluate how the future has to look...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Free Market or not....government control or not and to what degree....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: need to find a balance

[13:34] herman Bergson: And all these issues you will find in the programs of the political parties of your country...

[13:34] Clerisse Beeswing: Just sounds like a bunch of give and take

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: you cant just set it free to provocate companies like today cause then everything is just about company owners wanting more and more money without delivering anything of good quality or even at all

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Clerisse....and it is in the political debate that you can hear how much people will give and take and why

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: someone once said "You make a living by what you get; you make a life by what you give."

[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: But in a debate people try to outbluff each other

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...that is one of the problems of today....profit and stockholders dominate the scene

[13:36] Clerisse Beeswing: I like that Fred

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes and they just want more and more without delivering, taking overprices like crazy ect

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: so only the rich can afford

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Fred.....what is a social society?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well I read today for instance that people pay interest on loans....

[13:37] herman Bergson: In real this means that 80% of the population is paying this interest to 10% of the population....the rich

[13:37] Clerisse Beeswing: Gosh If I didn't have to chi chang in my pocket

[13:38] herman Bergson: and this widens the gap between rich and poor...

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no worries clerisse

[13:38] herman Bergson: Start reading about money....the reason why we have to pay interest....

[13:38] herman Bergson: how banks generate money....

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): My concentration limit has been reached

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] herman Bergson: I did this all day today.....

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): happens a lot merlin

[13:39] herman Bergson: You can start reading tomorrow Merlin :-)

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes :)

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh I followed it fine until now

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting it was! Thank you, herman, & class :-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡

409: The Utopia of the Free Market - Solidarity

The situation we are in now has deep historical roots. How could it come this far and can it be reversed? Reversed? Reversed to what? To a world without the utopia of the free market?

There is no way back. The Western world we live in is the result of a development during at least four centuries. It began with the "discovery" of the individual.

This may be traced back into the Renaissance, but it got its final form in Descartes' (1596 - 1650)  "Cogito, ergo sum". 

In political philosophy it was defined by philosophers like John Locke (1632 -1704) and Rousseau (1712 - 1778) in the form of individuals entering into a contract to form the state.

What I mean is, that we can observe an increasing importance of the individual. This growing individualism marks the end of the traditional subsistence economy and the rise of the free market. The world as a collection of transactions between individuals.

It is the basic stance of (neo)liberalism: first comes the individual with his natural rights. You can imagine that this can have a disrupting effect on the cohesion in a society: everyone for himself….

This idea isn't so modern. That society was developing in that direction was already noticed by Émile Durkheim (1858 - 1917), a aniFrench scientist and founder of the science of sociology.

- quote

"… if society lacks the unity that derives from the fact that the relationships between its parts are exactly regulated, that unity resulting from the harmonious articulation of its various functions assured by effective discipline 

and if, in addition, society lacks the unity based upon the commitment of men's wills to a common objective, then it is no more than a pile of sand that the least jolt or the slightest puff will suffice to scatter."

- end quote

Th growing free market increased the gap between the few rich and many poor. Even so worse that Disraeli, Prime minister of the UK from 1874 till1880, spoke even of "two nations".

With the concept of solidarity Durkheim placed himself between two political extremes. On the one hand you had the utopian, especially marxist and in France also anarchist revolutionaries, who were ready to establish a society, where all social differences would be equalized.

The revolutions of 1848 and the Commune of Paris in 1871 had, according to Durkheim demonstrated, that such kind of revolutionary solidarity  could easily drift into the nightmare of totalitariasm. 

At the other political end we find the freedom of individual contracts as propagated by the liberals. In their opinion it was not the task of the government to clean up social inequalities.

The social problems, which often were admitted by the liberals, had to be solved by the private initiative of charity.

Due to the increase of individualism, according to Durkheim, the traditional social cohesion creating institutions like the family or the church had disappeared in modern society. This is an observation regarding the 'modern' society of 1900!

With the complete disappearance of the subsistence economy, which was replaced by a free market economy, society had become mainly a collection of individuals.

The traditional feeling of solidarity, often expressed in reciprocity was no longer felt by the modern individual due to the increased division of labor. Everybody only was a small cog in the production process.

Social legislation and social security were the new form of solidarity in a free market economy and it is the present neoliberalism, which is breaking down this new solidarity since the 80s of the past century.

According to Durkheim the free individual can never be the starting point of a social order like Ayn Rand suggested with her extreme individualism.

The free individual is in fact the endpoint of a historical development, which culminates in the division of labor of the free market society.

The medieval solidarity of the subsistence economy is no longer an option for us, but we as individuals have to become more aware that even our personal greed is only possible in connection with the whole complex modern society.

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman. The pile of sand quote.... I was not sure whose quote it was... Durkheim?

[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours if you have any question or remark

[13:24] Ana (anasyro): dear herman, i am not sure what your main statement is

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Durkheims

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok ty

[13:24] Ana (anasyro): can you clarify

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is a pitty Ana

[13:24] Ana (anasyro): not a pity

[13:24] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:25] Ana (anasyro): i am asking you to clarify your encyclopedia of knowledge

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ?

[13:25] Ana (anasyro): what is the point of your lecture

[13:25] herman Bergson: The main statement is that we need a new concept of solidarity in our society instead of the individualistic greed as leading principle

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: i think people have a better education than earlier , this is lets increase individualism

[13:25] Ana (anasyro): well shoot!!!

[13:26] Ana (anasyro): tell us about that new concept

[13:26] Ana (anasyro): any idea?

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Ana, this is part of a series

[13:26] Ana (anasyro): pfff

[13:26] Loo Zeta: Durkheim was a Functionalist, he did not accept the expoitation of the free market like Marxists

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It will only make sense if you heard the previous ones

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: people must think about others too instead of taking what he can from everyone else without any feeling at all for them

[13:26] Loo Zeta: excuse typos

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: like it is today

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Subsistence level may soon return due to overpopulation and resource depletion, and in fact do still exist in many parts of the world.

[13:27] herman Bergson: True Debbie

[13:27] Mick Nerido: There still are rules in the free utopia…

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I heard someone on the radio say recently that society has never been more equal than it is now

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, maybe solidarity will return of necessity.

[13:27] Loo Zeta: yes, the Chilian miners knew they had to share rations equitably or they died

[13:27] Loo Zeta: Really Merlin?

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): You must admit, that in the west anyway, the poor are reasonably prosperous

[13:28] herman Bergson: In some countries it is Merlin

[13:28] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): awww.. sorry.. have to leave :-(

[13:28] herman Bergson: In some

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes it was about UK only

[13:28] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): bye everyone

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: bye then Alarice

[13:28] herman Bergson: The UK is a bad example tho ...

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Alarice

[13:28] Loo Zeta: In some parts of the West I see a a division like a chasm developing in the UK

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): oh?

[13:28] herman Bergson: the difference between rich and poor has increased there

[13:29] herman Bergson: compared to other countries

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: scary development for sure

[13:29] Kime Babenco: I give you an example of solidartity: the head of the international red cross earns more than the president of the USA... Check if you like

[13:29] Loo Zeta: we are going to end up with an 'Underclass' again, or an 'undeserving poor'

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): well not compared to the third world surely?

[13:29] Ana (anasyro): i seriously don't know how these details will bring us closer to a new conception of solidarity

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is exactly the point Kim

[13:29] Ana (anasyro): this is an empirical matter

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Ana...for everyone to see

[13:30] Mick Nerido: Perhaps the solidarity will have to come after the disolution of nation states...

[13:30] herman Bergson: the queen of the netherlands gets 69.000 Euro a month...

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): omg Mick

[13:30] herman Bergson: The president of France gets 10.600 a month for instance

[13:30] Kime Babenco: So people keep on asking a bit help on any streetcross, to buy a sweet or whatever... and.. it's money not used what is was meant for

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): When people have nothing, or have lost a lot - they tend to work together to subsist. that is a strong form of solidarity. Look at the occupy movements around the world...

[13:31] Loo Zeta agrees with Debbie

[13:31] Mick Nerido: misery loves company

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie..I agree..there is a counter movement...

[13:32] Loo Zeta: or turn to theft

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I can remember those feelings but dont see them now

[13:32] herman Bergson: People begin to see (except the bankers) that personal greed is not working eventually

[13:32] herman Bergson: there is more to a society and being member of a society than by accumulating wealth

[13:33] Loo Zeta: The union movement emerged from exploitation

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes indeed

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: much morer

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: more

13:33] herman Bergson: Yes..and the unions in the UK for instance were knocked out by Thatcher

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: can you buy love for exampple or feelings

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: love

[13:33] herman Bergson: she opened up the free market instead

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: but you have to accumulate wealth to provide security

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): The old adage that giving is better than receiving, in social terms, is still true. To be a respected member of a community is awesome.

[13:34] Loo Zeta: Not totally, this government are trying to undermine the last bastion of socialism.... the NHS

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: you can buy sex but then its no love involved in it

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: love and such things is important things u cant buy

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and social contact in general

[13:34] Loo Zeta: Is love a social construct?

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I wish that was true Bejiita

[13:35] herman Bergson: But remember Marx's his words from the previouslecture...

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sociologists have found that women find rich men more attractive

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: if i pay someone for love me they will only love me for my money not for the person i am

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even if their richness is fake

[13:35] Kime Babenco: Human relations are more complex than that... We were talking about solidarity among people

[13:36] Loo Zeta: Well I so got that wrong lol

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): DOH merlin.

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): rich is the goal in the free market society

[13:36] Loo Zeta: But what does it prophet a man I he looses his soul?

[13:36] Fred123 Aiten: so are we saying that people should not save money?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...but it shows that it is not the final goal in a society...a human society

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If I tell a girl I don't have a car she loses interest in me

[13:37] Fred123 Aiten: All spare cash at the end of the month should be given to charity

[13:37] Loo Zeta: stupid girl

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even someone in another continent

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: for some people Money is the most important in their lifes

[13:37] Mick Nerido: How we treat the poor and sick defines our society

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: well a buffer is good to have but if you have 50 million and yet just want more and more its greed

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what Marx already said in 1844

[13:37] Kime Babenco: Yes...

[13:37] herman Bergson: Money makes my individuality

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: that u should share some for sure

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't know why people like Richard Branson keep on working

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i mean what would u do with 50 million really?

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: security is the most important thing not money. But money buys security

[13:38] Kime Babenco: So it's hard to understand in the USA they don't want to hear about public health care...

[13:38] Loo Zeta: who herman?

[13:38] Loo Zeta: money doth not make the man

[13:38] Loo Zeta: just the things he has

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: i would know it but i would not sell my soul for it

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yeah its Manners

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But some people say Clothes too

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed loo

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: its who u are as person that matters

[13:39] herman Bergson: WhenI am ugly and I have money....I can buy 20 women, so I am not ugly...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: not how much money u have

[13:39] herman Bergson: When I am lame I can buy 200 feet, so I am not lame..I am what I can pay for....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Marx

[13:39] Loo Zeta thinks Herman playing devil's advocate

[13:39] Femtasia Rexen: no he's right

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But that research I mentioned... women actually think that men who they think are rich are actuelly better looking too

[13:40] Kime Babenco: Manners are under influence of money and time

[13:40] Femtasia Rexen: i know someone who bought a very beautiful woman, she was intelligent too

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): If we all make lots of money and have a 50M buffer of cash, all around the world, we wont be any safer, because the goods will all be consumed.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Money alienates the person from his individuality...

[13:40] Mick Nerido: everyone has their price?

[13:40] Femtasia Rexen: he is fat , and old, but very clever :)

[13:40] Loo Zeta: Richness of life is found in the connections we make, some of my closest was when I was in an East End Mission caring for homeless

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Rich means better diet

[13:41] Loo Zeta: nope

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): often more opportunity for exerice

[13:41] Loo Zeta: not always

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Loo...what you say makes sense....

[13:42] herman Bergson: Compared with the banking and financial crisis and its causes...

[13:42] Mick Nerido: what happened to the meek shall inherit the earth?

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah Mick, that was always wrong

[13:42] Kime Babenco: The dream is maybe super(wo)man... though the actor ended in a wheel chair

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sermon on the Mount I think

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): It was propaganda from earlier times.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes it was Merlin

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): now it is - the meek shall watch soapies ;)

[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ty :)

[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol debbie

[13:43] Loo Zeta: I could go into theological exigesis but later?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Mayb e as rich as the ocean is deep... but stil in a wheel chair

[13:43] Mick Nerido: mabe mistranslated "The Mean shall inherit the Earth"

[13:43] Loo Zeta: exegesis sorry

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ok....

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Kime that superman thing was tragic

[13:44] herman Bergson: To get back to the main issue...:-)

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): mick - lol, sad but true.

[13:44] Ana (anasyro): I still think this discussion will lead us nowhere. It is about the contingencies of life, the bad an good sides. It is a personal matter this issue, I agree, but we do not seem capable of lifting it to a level of real theoretical debate about the assumptions of solidarity. We cannot find a real solution to the problem of lack of solidarity if we don't understand the paradoxes of social life. What I hear here are a lot of clichés and open doors kicked in. If I understand the essence of all statements I think we should discuss something like what makes social order possible. We should discuss in a more positive way the basic ingredients of social life itself. We go into details instead of looking at the structures behind it. Why not talk about the fact that, unless all the constraints, society still is a fact, coherent as it is. Why is not anyone explaining this fact? I conclude: this is just pseudophilosophy. But I doubt you will all agree with this. ;-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Social legislation was a form a a new solidarity in the free market society...

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aaaagggghhhh

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Not reading that!

[13:45] Kime Babenco: Right Ana

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): What was it ... 2 lines max?

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ana plz read the rules of discussion here behind me to the right...

[13:45] Ana (anasyro): that is a way to avoid a real discussion

[13:45] herman Bergson: If you have a problem...plz state it in short statements

[13:45] Kime Babenco: We lost the issue of todays class...

[13:45] Ana (anasyro): i am out of here

[13:45] Mick Nerido: thanks herman have to go

[13:45] Ana (anasyro): this is really nonsense

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hoooo

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I need another hour to read that..

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye

[13:46] Ana (anasyro): so try it

[13:46] Mick Nerido: bye everyone

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:46] herman Bergson: If it is nonsense Ana why did you stay???

[13:46] Kime Babenco: I like discussing however...;-)

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh well. I think this is good stuff Herman.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...this hasn't happen only once long ago in 6 years

[13:46] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:46] Femtasia Rexen: *smilles

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Good for a laugh

[13:46] herman Bergson: this is not a therapy group for people with social problems

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:47] herman Bergson: ok...it nicely disrupted our discussion...

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I know someone else too

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Goes to Roadside and other places

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): No names

[13:47] Kime Babenco: Don't confuse a philosphy class to psychological session...

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:48] herman Bergson: shrugges like Atlas did

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Is Herman stunned?

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): that put a damper on things.

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I hope you don't have the same ideas as she had..

[13:48] herman Bergson: Sometimes we run into this kind of entertainment

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It was fun... I love dissent

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think we are all a bit shocked.

[13:49] Femtasia Rexen: oh I think not, it was a lively discussion that is all :)

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Atlas bearing the world ?

[13:49] Loo Zeta: Atlas had the world on his shoulders ..... love it :D

[13:49] herman Bergson: Ayn Rand's book had the title "Atlas Shrugged"

[13:49] Femtasia Rexen: haha

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Means what ?

[13:50] herman Bergson: I still have to read the long text of this lady....

[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I won't

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we learned a lot this lesson...also the way we do not act..

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: the world was shaking is litteraly the title in swedish

[13:50] Kime Babenco: Atlas live in what area ?

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: or "and the world shook"!

[13:50] Kime Babenco: An old greec not ?

[13:51] herman Bergson: Atlas was a mythological figure

[13:51] Kime Babenco: OK

[13:51] herman Bergson: always shown with the world on his shoulders

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: I have to go off, good night everybody!

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: I have an old clock...

[13:51] Femtasia Rexen: night Lizzy

[13:51] Loo Zeta: Good night Lizzy

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): night Lizzy:)

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): Night Liz.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: night Lizzy

[13:51] herman Bergson: one of the decorating figures on it is Atlas

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Lizzy

[13:51] Kime Babenco: The first one who determined the Earth size was Erastothen

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Bye Lizzy!

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Earth size

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all for you participation and endurance today ^_^

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That title never did make sense to me.. Atlas Shrugged

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ㋡

[13:52] Femtasia Rexen: thank you professor

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: thanks herman

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Ok, Herman

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Thanks a lot

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Prof Herman

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..we learned a lot again

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: well intreresting as usual

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] Kime Babenco: Sorry I was late ...:-(

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] Loo Zeta: Thanks and apologize for not realizing you had started earlier

[13:53] Femtasia Rexen: and thank you everyone

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well....never a dull moment.... ^_^

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nope ㋡

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye every one:)