610: The All knowing one....

With the introduction of a personal almighty and all-knowing god, of course there was a new problem introduced regarding free will.

Saint Augustine raises the question whether God’ s foreknowledge is inconsistent with man’ s freedom? 

He believes both that man has free will, as we have seen, and also that God knows everything, including everything that is going to take place in the future.

There clearly is an incompatibility here, but Saint Augustine wants to show us that this is only apparent and not real.

And now there happens something, that is so typical for theologians. Although nobody ever had a real conversation with this god in person,

men like Augustine seem to know exactly how this god thinks and acts and 

what special interpretation you have to give of this all knowing capability to save free will and escape total determinism.

The other issue is that due to free will man can choose between doing good or evil.

For Aristotle man is a rational animal, and he considers that it is by virtue of his capacity to consider reasons 

that man can make choices and so can choose between right and wrong, good and evil. This distinguishes man from other animals 

and makes him more independent than they are from the nature he shares with them and also from his environment.

  

Augustine adds to this that man can only do good with the help of the grace of god. Why that is, I have no idea, but it shows that free will and good reasons for him is apparently not enough.

About a thousand years later the christian theologians still struggle with the problem: man has free will and thence is free to choose between doing good or evil

and yet there is an all-knowing god, who thus knows ahead what a person will do, which is incompatible with free will.

Thomas Aquinas (1225 -1274) had a really ingenious answer to this problem. Since Saint Augustine (about 380 AD) there still was no definite answer.

Aquinas argues that God’ s knowledge of what I shall do in the future is not really a knowledge of the future. 

For God is not in time and so knows everything timelessly. We see and know the things we know from within time. 

So we can at best predict what will happen tomorrow on the basis of what we know today 

and remember in our experience of the past. God, on the other hand, sees it from a vantage point outside time.

Of course I haven’t the slightest idea, how he knew this, but  Aquinas says that God did not  know in the past  what I do today. 

He knows it timelessly; not from within any particular time: ‘ God acts in the timelessness of his eternity.’ 

What is to come, what lies in the future for us, does not lie in the future for God. Just try to figure this out.

This is historical and to us it may sound outdated and obsolete, but it is the intellectual struggle of our culture to define the individual.

At this moment we live in a time in which our individualism is challenged by other cultures that do not share our human and political values.

After 1500 AD the debate on free will is taken out of the hands of theologians and taken over by philosophers like Descartes, Spinoza, Hume and others.

It might lead to a better understanding of the question about free will.

Thank you…the floor is yours :-)

The Discussion

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): This sounds like quantum physics i’d say

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the problem with all this

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is

[13:21] CB Axel: I don't see how an omnipotent god is incompatible with free will. Man can still exercise free will, but God, being all-knowing, knows how a man will decide to use that free will.

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is all a matter of faith

[13:21] CB Axel: Or the timelessness thing. I can see that, too.

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for both philosophers

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will never be settled

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:22] herman Bergson: CB...

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): after Thomas it may be easier

[13:22] herman Bergson: The problem is a problem of logic...

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right God may know but the person does not

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): logic is impossible to be applied to augustine or Thomas

[13:23] herman Bergson: When someone knows in advance what you are going to do...you do what you do by necessity...

[13:23] herman Bergson: you could not have done otherwise...

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thus no free will

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically remote controlled by god

[13:23] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a paradox sort of

[13:23] herman Bergson: Well..it is invented nonsense by our brain, I;d say :-)

[13:23] CB Axel: You can do what you want to, it's just that God knows what you will choose.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe I d agree with you

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but head start to spin when you start think on it

[13:24] herman Bergson: no CB..there is no choosing at all at your part...

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this is a repetition of the discussion of last week

[13:24] CB Axel: I mean, if I disagree with Bejiita here, I can stab him, but I think you all know that I would never do that.

[13:24] herman Bergson: what you will do is already set...and known

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....

[13:25] CB Axel whispers: Don't worry, Bejiita. I won't stab you.

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm not sure about that Cb ㋡

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:25] herman Bergson: we are a thousand years further in history and still they are quarrelling about the  same ideas

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] herman Bergson: That CB is the other problem....the problem of evil...:-)

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe it's a too scary thought that there is nothing after our death

[13:26] herman Bergson: For a granny like you perhaps Beertje..:-)

[13:27] CB Axel: My father believes in God and a life after death because he wants to believe that evil people will be punished.

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no heaven, no virgins ㋡

[13:27] CB Axel: I'm becoming more and more comfortable with there being nothing after death.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes beliefs CB.....

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): omg.no virgins......

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:27] herman Bergson: we love beliefs....all kinds of it...

[13:28] CB Axel: I'm less concerned with no virgins than I am with no beer.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well CB..let me tell you this..

[13:28] herman Bergson: of all people who have died..not a single one has returned to tell us that he regretted it

[13:29] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:29] herman Bergson: So I don’t think we have to worry about dieing

[13:31] herman Bergson: But to get back to free will and an all knowing god...

[13:31] herman Bergson: It is amazing that this religion dominated thought for more than a thousand years...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well and still does

[13:32] herman Bergson: If you eliminate this god idea you are back to the basic question...

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even though we have science

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe it's a lack of education of people

[13:32] herman Bergson: yes indeed...

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and be  older times had science too

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and science is still moving forward

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who knows what science will discover

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the problem is that religion have always tried to kill off science

[13:33] herman Bergson: Beertje...education has always been the key ....indeed

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and still is today

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not now

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you know that the pope is a scientist????

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a chemist???

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...so I read today that the american congress isn’t so pro science at all indeed

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is he?

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes he is

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I sure like this pope better then the one before I can say

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think that is what shapes some of his ideas

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): science

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this one talks about really good things in general

[13:34] herman Bergson: Ratzinger was a disaster..:-)

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg yes

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stuck in the middle ages

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we called him Pappa Razzi

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahaha

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good name

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i never liked him

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ever

[13:35] herman Bergson: Just imagine...he wrote three thick books during his time in office....

[13:35] herman Bergson: About the life of jesus...

[13:35] herman Bergson: my goodness

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he wanted the title

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): had no clue about people

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or god i think

[13:36] herman Bergson: no

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there was already a thick book, no?

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wasn’t it called the bible?

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not his interpretation

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): don’t remember, only thing I know is i did not liked him and I like this other

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): choochoo going by

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he at least say logical and good things

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this man is a man of the people

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id say that too

[13:37] herman Bergson: well the real point is that a pope is a political person....

[13:37] herman Bergson: and in that sense he can influence the global debate

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i heard the cardinals don't like him, because he iss too popular among people

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many of the cardinals are so ultra conservative in thinking

[13:38] CB Axel: This pope is at least trying to get the church into the 21st century.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like razzi

[13:38] CB Axel: Or at least the 20th.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[13:38] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje ..the fat Vatican goose don't like to leave their comfort zones :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:38] herman Bergson: No free will there....:-)

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and much of the African cardinals are still in a 19th century mode

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is a puppet on a string

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will take time for them

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is an inhibitor of progress that way of thinking for sre

[13:39] herman Bergson: I guess we are pretty off topic now :-))

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was our free will to do that Herman

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you started it

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...:-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Unless god knew it already that we would do so :-)

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is supposed to be no free will in this class

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if there were more here HERMAN WOULD SHOUT!!!

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but speaking of free will, when someone wants to leave life, he or she can't do that because doctors won't help them to do that, were is our free will to go?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Maybe I would, Gemma :-))

[13:41] herman Bergson: That is a serious issue Beertje.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: The problem was already stated by Plato in his Gorgias dialog...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Callicles defined freedom as to do whatever you like not hindered by any (moral) restriction...

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you do it without dr help

[13:43] CB Axel: Is that freedom or anarchy?

[13:43] herman Bergson: The point here is....we think we are free in our actions....

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): dr took oath to save life

[13:43] herman Bergson: but we also are moral individuals...

[13:43] herman Bergson: and there is the conflicting situation

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in oregon USA ad a couple other states there a a way to get drugs from the doctor order

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the use of moral to let someone suffer?

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but take them on your own

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is legal

[13:44] herman Bergson: to do as you like colliding with moral restrictions

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): using your own free will

[13:45] herman Bergson: I think that the problem you point at Beertje is one where we have no general rules for....

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:45] herman Bergson: You have to evaluate every situation itself

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so, we have no free will at all

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this is a huge circle

[13:46] CB Axel: You have free will until you get caught.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): by a train...

[13:46] herman Bergson: We amy have a free will yet, but not everyone wants to help you with what you want Beertje

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i only ask this because i live near a railroad, and sometimes in 1 week there are 3 or 4 people who jump

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and where is the protection by the railroad??

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): godness

[13:48] CB Axel: Why should the railroad be responsible?

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are not CB

[13:49] herman Bergson: no...

[13:49] CB Axel: I feel sorry for the train driver in those cases. They must feel horrible.

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes...they often are traumatized

[13:49] CB Axel: I wouldn't do that to an innocent driver.

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here a lot of people wanted to jump from the golden gate bridge

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed, would feel horrible

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so they erected a huge fence on the bridge

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that helped

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they don't think of the driver when they want to leave life

[13:50] herman Bergson: At least the bridge wouldn’t care, Gemma

[13:50] CB Axel: We had one guy who jumped from an overpass onto a motorway, or tried to anyway.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes but all the drivers who saw

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see

[13:50] CB Axel: He landed on the roof of a truck, bounced off, and broke his arm.

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well....before we commit suicide out of free will here...

[13:51] herman Bergson: let me thank you for your participation again :-)

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheh

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time ㋡

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

[13:52] CB Axel: Bye, bye. See you Thursday.

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): same time thursday

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): jumping wouldn't be necessary if doctors would help these poor people, it's such a mess on the railroad

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

609: Free Will and christianity

The Ancient Greek were the first to debate about free will in our philosophical history and they already touched the sensitive nerves of the problem.

With the advent of monotheistic christianity, where a god became a personal and active creator of man, a new series of problems is added to the debate.

And the debate is still hot. This coming Friday, for instance,  there will be a debate between Daniel Dennett, Dick Swaab and  Victor Lamme in Haarlem.

That is a town only 12 km from where I live now. However, they asked 450 euro for a one day conference, so I won’t go :-)

But Swaab and Lamme are interesting because as neuroscientists  they deny the existence of free will and are on the philosophical villain list of Dennett.

We’ll talk about them later, however. Let’s first have a look how christian thinkers contributed to the debate.

The quintessential theme in relation to free will is the question of individual responsibility for one’s actions. If there does not exist free will there can not exist responsibility either.

For Saint Augustine (354–430 C.E.) there is no question that human beings have free will. Man is god’s creation and free will is a gift of god.  Human beings have been given free will so that they can do what is right.

So with the gift of free will god has given man the capacity not only to do good but also evil. 

In thinking of it as a gift of god Augustine is not taking free will for granted, but is grateful for it and for everything which having it presupposes: indeed for human life.

This is some gift, I’d say. It leads to the conclusion that god is responsible for the evil. that man does and hence for the evil in the world.

Augustine further holds that though men have the freedom to choose between good and evil, and so are responsible for their good deeds 

and wicked actions, nevertheless they cannot do right, follow goodness, without god’ s grace.

You may wonder, what in the world is god’s grace, but if that is needed to do right, where is the free will?

Another question Augustine feels he must answer concerns god’ s foreknowledge. God is omniscient and so knows everything, 

and that includes not only all that is in people’ s hearts, all that they desire, and their intentions, but also all that has happened, is happening and will happen.

His way out here is, starting a debate on the meaning of foreknowledge. I won’t bother you with that, but you can imagine, that according to Augustine foreknowledge of god and free will of the individual go together quite well.

While Swaab and Lamme state that their claims about free will are based on empirical evidence, Augustine has no empirical evidence for his claims.

Yet he tries to deal with the new problems in his book “ De Libero Arbitrio”  (circa 387, On Free Choice of the Will). But it is all just an intellectual debate.

You may agree or disagree with the neuroscientists, but they bring at least one thing to our attention: the absolute relation between mind and brain.

This makes a lot of philosophical debates just intellectual exercises, alienated from empirical reality, only based on unfounded assumptions,

or, in other words, based on beliefs for which is only a verbal justification without any empirical evidence.

In that way Augustine, unknowingly because he lived around 400 AD, created his own intellectual puzzles about free will.

Thank you….the floor is yours ^_^…….

The Discussion

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mulling over ....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): This is some gift, I’d say. It leads to the conclusion that god is responsible for the evil. that man does and hence for the evil in the world.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i disagree with this

[13:26] herman Bergson: You know Gemma...

[13:26] CB Axel: Just because God knows what you are going to do before you do it doesn't mean you don't have free will.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Augustine took his own sins as his own free will

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and boy he has a lot

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and that is why the church created confession

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as a remedy for sin

[13:28] herman Bergson: The reasoning often is that those who are controlled by greed and lust have no free will in it....

[13:28] herman Bergson: the Platonist idea....

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the  foreknowledge of god is just to scare people

[13:28] CB Axel: Greed and lust are just instincts?

[13:28] CB Axel: The whole idea of God is just to scare people.

[13:28] herman Bergson: WellCB...the funny thing is...n all those philosophyies...

[13:29] herman Bergson: the lust, greed, viciousness and so on are all 100% human, beyond the grasp of god...

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there you go

[13:29] herman Bergson: and all virtue is the work of god in man

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if we choose to be virtuous

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (i feel only greed when I see chocolat)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:30] CB Axel: hehehe

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sorry! I have already eaten everything!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUAHAHAHAH"

[13:30] herman Bergson: I only fel greed when I see..... ^_^

[13:30] herman Bergson: whatever :-)

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahahah

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cant help being saiyan

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:31] CB Axel: I'm willing to share my chocolate, but if you reach for more than your share you'll pull back a bloody stump.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Bu there si a kind of pattern in this way of thinking....

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): auw CB

[13:31] herman Bergson: when it is about all kinds of bad behavior the philosopher blames man himself....

[13:32] CB Axel: A pattern in blaming evil on man and good on God?

[13:32] CB Axel: Oh. Yes.

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): So god does already know that I long for chocolate, I can't hel p that I'm greedy , I just respond to his will?

[13:33] CB Axel: No, Beertje. He just knows already how your free will will respond to chocolate.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he knows you love chocolate andn made it for you

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well the cocoa

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: No free will regarding consuming chocolate here, Beertje

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that he made for everyone i think cause EVERYONE loves chocolate

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): including me

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: yummy!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that counts for everything people like i presume?

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): eating, loving, even killing?

[13:35] herman Bergson: To be honest....

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now we get to evil against society

[13:35] herman Bergson: this debate on free will is becoming a bit boring....

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is no end

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheh

[13:35] herman Bergson: I mean in the historical perspective...

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: the real debate of today is between philosophers and neuroscientists...

[13:36] herman Bergson: between Dennett and Swaab...

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Swaab says : we are our brain

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will the conference be filmed??

[13:36] herman Bergson: Don't know Gemma, but I guess they'll do that...

[13:36] CB Axel: The neuroscientists don't believe in free will?

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): then you can tell us

[13:37] CB Axel: Do they blame the Big Bang like I do? °͜°

[13:37] herman Bergson: No CB....Swaab doesnt...neither does Victor Lamme

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we can see that on YouTube?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Denntt however does...:-)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): should be really interesting meeting then

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if they charge 450 euro to go there question is if they will let the movie out free for everyone but everything find its way to youtube, at least almost

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if some are deleted by copyright guys

[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes...I am sure it will Gemma...but I don't want to pay 500 US$ for it to attend it

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats lot for 1 person

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it really is a lot

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): insane

[13:39] CB Axel: That is a bit steep when we can debate the issue right here for free. °͜°

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): coffee is free ㋡

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pay them in LD Herman

[13:40] herman Bergson: So true, CB :-))

[13:40] CB Axel: Yeah. For that kind of money they should at least have an open bar. °͜°

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: Anyway...I gonna rethink how to continue this project :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: I mean...all thes useless thoughts about gods and their foreknowledge as affecting free will...

[13:41] herman Bergson: waste if time

[13:41] herman Bergson: of

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): since it i still so much of a question  yes

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it goes in a circle sort of

[13:42] herman Bergson: We should move to the debate with the neuroscientists...

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:43] CB Axel: I'd like to hear what they have to say.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): god is just mans idea of how to control other people and gain power and greed for themselves, have been for very long

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita and let me tell you this....

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): will there be a report from the debate in some journal?

[13:44] herman Bergson: homo sapiens was a hunter - gatherer....

[13:44] herman Bergson: inthat state of being there was no room for gods...

[13:44] herman Bergson: ok...for animism....

[13:45] CB Axel: There was no god of the hunt?

[13:45] herman Bergson: but god was invented when homo sapiens became a settler...a farmer....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:45] herman Bergson: groups became larger.....villages....so control over a group became more complicated too...

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:46] herman Bergson: thence there emerged rules and regulations....

[13:47] herman Bergson: and to impose them on the growing population in stationary places you need a transcedent authority...

[13:47] herman Bergson: so only when you live in villages you also have a stationary location where you can build temples and so on...

[13:48] herman Bergson: tottally alien to the hunter-gatherer...

[13:48] herman Bergson: that is when god was invented.....to control the group...just as you said Bjiita

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems like a probable idea

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in that day people were afraid of everything

[13:49] CB Axel: The monotheistic god or gods in general?

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the sun

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the  storms

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): eclipse

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who to blame

[13:49] CB Axel: Because I can imagine gods before civilization.

[13:50] herman Bergson: the misbehavior of the people, Gemma....

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some even believe aliens came and they were the gods

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and on to the greek mythology

[13:51] herman Bergson: that is only an invention of our times, Gemma...

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): today we have science and stuff but basically what they do in middle east for example is trying to hold time still in the middle ages era even its 2016 so the people will still believe in these gods

[13:51] herman Bergson: in those early days of mankind they even didn’t know they lived on a planet

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was no pictures from space then

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): showing what a planet is

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that the earth is round

[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...that is  quite a problem....

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right but they knew is creature s came out of the sky

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the crazy thing is some still believe the earth is flat!

[13:52] herman Bergson: I mean th eMiddle East and its attitude towards modern society

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): winder if they believe the Discworld series is the bible?

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wonder

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:52] CB Axel: lol

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what has this to do with free will Bejiita?

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then they have got it all wrong

[13:53] herman Bergson: Simply nothing Beeertje :-)

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well belief affect free will u can say in a way

[13:53] herman Bergson: We just sometimes digress a little here :-)

[13:53] CB Axel: They are free to believe in a flat earth.

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes i guess they are

[13:54] herman Bergson: No they are not CB....:-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its complex indeed this

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not sure many believed in a flat earth anyway

[13:54] CB Axel: They are free to be completely wrong, but they are free.

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think that is partially myth

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that so many did

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one at my work even told me about it

[13:54] herman Bergson: Depends on what you mean by "FREE"

[13:55] herman Bergson: So you can say that they are free to believe that there is no gravity....

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a sect or cult of kind of many thinking earth is flat and nasa pics and moon landings are just artwork and fake

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds crazy indeed

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): where

[13:55] CB Axel: Of course they're free to believe there is no gravity.

[13:55] herman Bergson: you put them on a high buiding and say...plese...walk on...go ahead...no gravity is your belief...

[13:56] CB Axel: And if we're lucky, they'll all float the hell away.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:56] herman Bergson: and the funny thing is...they wont step over the edge of the roof....:-))

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the thing is they believe if you walk to far out you will fall off earth and into nothingness

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so gravity they believe in I guess

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least the concept

[13:57] CB Axel: Maybe they don't believe in gravity and just believe that the world sucks. °͜°

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i need to go now

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another appointment in sl

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its crazy however

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Gemma

[13:57] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tuy

[13:57] herman Bergson: ohh wow...Gemma :-))

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:57] CB Axel: See ya.

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to try for tuesday

[13:57] herman Bergson: Have fun...:-)

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you alll again for your participation...:-)

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ..:-)

[13:58] herman Bergson whispers: But stay if you like :-)

608: Plato and Free Will

The options regarding free will are actually rather limited. They lie between absolute indeterminism and absolute determinism.

And in-between these two extremes we have at least 50 shades of grey, which are named compatibilism.

Compatibilism is the theory, that in a world of natural laws and causal necessity there still is room for free will in this deterministic environment.

How does Plato (427 – 348  BC) fit into this picture and what does he have to say about it?

His view is that if one lacks moral knowledge or wisdom one will be inevitably subject to evil; 

and evil then, in the form of the ruthless exercise of power, insatiable greed, malice, envy, an obsession for revenge for some harm suffered, etc., becomes a form of necessity. 

Such a man, he argues, does not act with intent, and voluntarily, and so is a slave to the form of evil which has taken hold of his soul. 

When someone is at one with the good, in the moral necessity that informs his actions such a person is free: his actions come from him and he does what he wills. 

In contrast, when he is at one with evil or, at any rate, makes concessions to it he is in bondage: his actions do not come from him, for his will does not belong to him, it belongs to the evil that is in him.

Plato creates in fact a kind of dualism. In line with Sophocles Plato too thinks that freedom lies in knowledge, moral knowledge.

This moral knowledge is the love of the good. It is not just some knowledge, but more a mode of being. It refers to virtue.

This is a often recurring one of thinking: the idea, that you only become free, when you reach a certain level of (moral) insight.

In Plato’s terms it means, when you become a virtuous man. This is the ideal state, in which we are able to act on free will.

The opposite is that we are controlled by evil.  By evil Plato means putting oneself first, thinking only of one’s pleasure and gratification – the gratification of one’s sensuality and of the ego.

The nearer a person is to goodness the greater his inner unity, the unity in what he wants, the direction in which he moves and the way he lives. 

The nearer he is to goodness the deeper his contact with others, the greater his recognition of their existence in its own right. 

The opposite or antithesis of this is a life of impulse or of expediency, a life in which the direction of a person’s actions is contingent on changing circumstances. 

It is an ego-centric life in which the person’s gratification and his interests are paramount. Not a person with  a free will, but a constant victim of impulses and circumstances.

This creates an interesting situation. An enlightened person, one who knows the good, can such a person do evil?

If he is totally good,  you’d say NO, but this again would mean the end of free will. A paradox, I would say.

According to Plato the virtuous person will have achieved autonomy : what he does will be what he wants to do, 

not what he is forced to do, and he will be wholly behind it. This is Plato’s description of how, inevitably living in a world of natural necessity, a man can be nevertheless free.

This way of reasoning looks very like the way of thinking you see in many religions. Is it a kind of moral determinism?

Thank you….if you have any questions or remarks…the floor is yours….. ^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

Free Will, Ilham Dilham, 1999

On Free will, J.J.C.Smart, Mind 1961

Of Liberty and Necessity, James A. Harris, 2005

Free Will, A very short Introduction, Thomas Pink, 2003

The Discussion

[13:22] CB Axel: It seems to me to be the opposite of most religions.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe

[13:22] CB Axel: In religion doing good is doing the will of God.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes...

[13:22] herman Bergson: so no free will there either

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guess not

[13:23] CB Axel: We do evil when we exercise our free will and go against God's will.

[13:23] herman Bergson: what puzzled me was the idea..

[13:23] herman Bergson: that when someone has seen the "Light" he can only act according to it....

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes, CB but a saint doesn't :-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: and that we can do evil....yes that is the confusing part of the story

[13:24] CB Axel: A saint doesn't what?

[13:24] herman Bergson: do evil

[13:25] CB Axel: Saints don't have free will. They are just doing the will of their God.

[13:25] herman Bergson: the basic problem here is that Plato is no materialist...

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes CB...that is the paradox...

[13:26] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): I think also when human kind can see "the light" and want to do nly good, they have still to struggle with their human problems, like being lazy or greed

[13:26] herman Bergson: Plato says that who has the wisdom to know the good, will act accordingly....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then come the puzzling thing, extremists like IS for example i guess they believe they do good when they wage war and terror on all others then them since they are against gods will to them

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however they are indeed 100 % evil

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since harming others like then that cant be anything else

[13:26] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): being good is to forgive

[13:27] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): thats the hardest thing to learn

[13:27] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): and humans will never learn that^^^

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a true nice god would be like this indeed

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its tricky

[13:27] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): just training^^

[13:27] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): and the ill to be like that

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i believe being good is live in happines, dont hurt others and make others happy and well being

[13:27] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): will

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that kind of thing is good in general

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also don’t be greedy

[13:28] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): yes and to understand other people. its not always happines in life

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes....that was Plato's idea too Bejiita

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:28] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): when a problem arises you have to handle this also in the same ay of beeing happy

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I like Plato ㋡

[13:29] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): and thats the point

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: But in the dialog Gorgias Socrates discusses this matter with Callicles...

[13:29] herman Bergson: and Callicles sees free will is doing just whatever you want....no restraints

[13:30] CB Axel: So Donald Trump has no free will.

[13:30] CB Axel: That will be news to him.

[13:30] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): so also being greedy^^^

[13:30] herman Bergson: While Socrates pleads for virtue first...and act then

[13:31] herman Bergson: DT is a phenomenon...

[13:31] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): ahha

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:31] herman Bergson: and the Amercans who support him, too :-)))

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how can a wide open sewage pipe at full flow be liked by so many?

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I don’t get it

[13:31] CB Axel: Not this American. °͜°

[13:32] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): lol

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he says things that shocks me

[13:32] herman Bergson: the interesting thing is that there is no free will there....

[13:32] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): he wants to shock

[[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that seems indeed to be true

[13:32] CB Axel: Let's forget him and get back to Plato.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hee

[13:32] herman Bergson: Those who support him are what Plato would call people possesed by evil...they just follow primary emotions

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Plato is more my taste 

[13:32] CB Axel: Exactly.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): plato

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I’d say same Herman

[13:33] herman Bergson: I have been thinking about that actually....

[13:33] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): but evil and primary emotions are not the same in my thinking

[13:33] herman Bergson: From Plato's perspective  there has to be moral wisdom first....virtue....

[13:34] herman Bergson: No Daruma...but unthinkingly letting yourself be controlled by your fears and greed and egocentrism is

[13:35] CB Axel: It's like our instincts are to be greedy, fearful, and egoistic.

[13:35] herman Bergson: When you see respect for others as a basic value , you don't want to build a wall along your border....

[13:35] CB Axel: Self serving.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least for many

[13:36] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): yes, I guess that weakness. Being evil is really wanting e.g. someone to kil or to do bad by will.

[13:36] herman Bergson: True CB.....

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when all you think is MORE MORE MORE!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats not good

[13:36] herman Bergson: Just look at Plato's everyday situation...

[13:36] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): yes but wanting more is normal today.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Athens...

[13:36] CB Axel: Or thinking ME, ME, ME.

[13:36] herman Bergson: a democracy...

[13:36] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): just have a look around. we want it all cheap and fast

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:37] herman Bergson: all depending on cooperation...mutual agreement

[13:37] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): and children rase today like being a princess or prince

[13:37] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): i am the best and my parents adore only me

[13:37] herman Bergson: and the bad guys there too were the greedy and egocentric ones...

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I use to think, if i was the other person, how would I like me ( the real me) to act toward me

[13:38] herman Bergson: a threat to this democratic cooperation

[13:38] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): when you don’t question yourself, your behaviour and life, i guess thats the problem

[13:38] herman Bergson: it is indeed, Daruma...

[13:38] CB Axel: And that's why democracy is so difficult. Too many people caring only for themselves.

[13:39] herman Bergson: We all have to face the basic question: Who Am I?

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:39] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): yes and it the hardest thing in life "to find yourself" and to see yourelf alone in the mirror

[13:39] herman Bergson: YEs CB..but so far we achieved yet quite something :-)

[13:40] CB Axel: It's too easy for a demagogue to come along and sweep up the masses into a mindset of fear and greed.

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes....amazing....but of all times...

[13:41] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): i guess also seeing no future. and these days we do not learn those things n school or from our parents. its a mess...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Don’t be too pessimistic Daruma....

[13:42] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): ja sometimes it is like that^^^

[13:42] CB Axel: I'm with Daruma on that.

[13:42] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): please stop the world. i want to go off....

[13:42] CB Axel: LOL

[13:42] CB Axel: Me, too!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I’ve played that theatre once in here

[13:43] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): ok, i take you with me

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really good

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and fun

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: The problem is...you'll go to another world...:-)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and will that world be better?

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the question

[13:43] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): i stay in second life

[13:43] herman Bergson: I wonder, Bejiita :-)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): where ever you go, you have to take yourself with you

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes..I stay here too :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats kind of logical

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:44] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): ;)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed, Beertje!

[13:44] herman Bergson: SO ..I suggest, we all stay here in SL :-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:45] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): can be better for us all

[13:45] herman Bergson: And I thank you again for your participation:-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] CB Axel: Meh. People are still people here in SL.

[13:45] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma) claps

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:45] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): yes cb, thats true

[13:45] herman Bergson: ANd I hope to see you again next Thursday..:-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we do ㋡

[13:45] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): i hope thi too^^

[13:45] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. As usual, you have given me a lot to think about.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:46] CB Axel: See you all Thursday. °͜°

[13:46] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma): see u all soon and make everyone happy until we meet again^^

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman & class:-)

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Daruma..:-)

[13:46] Daruma Chu Ann (daruma) waves

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): zwaait terug

[13:47] Zinzi Serevi: dank je wel

[13:47] Zinzi Serevi: ..:)

[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see you soon:-) good night