603: Free Will, the problem

Let’s  begin with clarifying what we are dealing with, when we are talking about Free Will and make it subject of philosophical analysis.

We are dealing here with two concepts. On the one hand “Freedom” and on the other hand “Will”.

What do we mean by “will”? In relation to what we have said about the Individual, I would say, that “will” is related to choosing.

When I say “It is my want, that…..”, it is in a situation where I choose one of possible options or outcomes. So, you can say that “will” is not just a property, like a color of an object is, it means acting.

Thus “free will” means “freedom of action”. Freedom of action is the property of being free from constraints, 

especially from external constraints on our actions, but also from internal constraints such as physical disabilities or addictions. 

Political freedoms, such as the right to speak, to assemble, and the limits to government constraints on associations and organizations such as media and religions, are examples of external freedom.

But maybe you know the saying: “You may imprison my body, whatever you like, but you won’t be able to imprison my mind.”

As you see, there seem to be two ways of freedom. The philosopher Isaiah Berlin (1909 - 1997) described it in his inaugural lecture at Oxford University in 1957 called "Two Concepts of Liberty."

He made a distinction between negative and positive freedom. Negative liberty he defined as freedom FROM, that is, the absence of constraints on the person imposed by other people. 

Positive liberty he defined both as freedom TO, that is, the ability, not just the opportunity, to pursue and achieve willed goals and also as autonomy or self-rule, as opposed to dependence on others.

To quote him: “The 'positive' sense of the word 'liberty' derives from the wish on the part of the individual to be his own master. 

I wish my life and decisions to depend on myself, not on external forces of whatever kind. I wish to be the instrument of my own, not of other men's, acts of will.

I wish to be a subject, not an object; to be moved by reasons, by conscious purposes, which are my own, not by causes which affect me, as it were, from outside. I wish to be somebody, not nobody; 

a doer, deciding, not being decided for, self-directed and not acted upon by external nature or by other men 

as if I were a thing, or an animal, or a slave incapable of playing a human role, that is, of conceiving goals and policies of my own and realizing them. - End quote

This sounds like the heart and soul of the individual with a free will. I think, we do not  need to  concern us with this negative freedom. That is obvious.

  

This notion of positive freedom fits our idea of free will like a glove, but here we go…..

If this individual endowed with this positive freedom is to be true, we have to solve a few problems, especially in a time like this where some say that “we are our brain”

and in a time where people blow themselves up, because they are convinced, that Allah orders them to do so and they are not allowed to make another choice.

In philosophical terms the question is, are we really free, or free to some extend or do we just imagine we act freely?

That is the debate between Determinism and Indeterminism. So, get ready….. 

Thank you again…..the floor is yours……shoot! :-))

The Discussion

[13:17] Velvet (velvet.braham): Can we find a different example?

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I feel my free will getting challenged by my computer, My will to be here

[13:17] herman Bergson: In what sense Velvet?

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope it holds up now

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:17] Velvet (velvet.braham): Someone who gives their free will to another still has it

[13:18] Velvet (velvet.braham): Our next topic will be the philosophy of RAM!

[13:18] CB Axel: LOL

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:18] Velvet (velvet.braham): because it's a mystery sometimes

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:18] herman Bergson: Think so too...

[13:18] herman Bergson: Swedish RAM to be more precise :-)

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how can you give YOUR free will to another Velvet?

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can have been a bad reboot before causing it

[13:19] herman Bergson: Bu twhat was your question Velvet?

[13:19] Velvet (velvet.braham): If I decide to blow myself up because someone tole me to do it

[13:19] Velvet (velvet.braham): I have still made a choice

[13:19] Velvet (velvet.braham): *told

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: we could make another example like: companies saying they have to exploit 3d world states because the shareholder want it like that

[13:20] herman Bergson: No..because you did it as an act dictated by religion...

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: well in my case as an act of economy ;)

[13:20] Velvet (velvet.braham): And you have chosen that religion

[13:20] CB Axel: But you can still not follow that religion.

[13:20] herman Bergson: you had not the option to say...I am sorry ..but I wont do it

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you refuse they kill you....

[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): perhaps, but you die either way

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is they are brainwashed, reprogrammed basicaly

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by the religion

[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): and give over their free will

[13:21] herman Bergson: That is th magic CB....people cancel their free will due to religion

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from birth they get brainwashed to extremists and never get exposed to reality

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why it turns out like this

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): birth

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): hmmmmm

[13:22] CB Axel: Not necessarily, Bejiita.

[13:22] CB Axel: Some become extremists later in life.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they believe it 100 % and refuse to accept that it is really not the case

[13:22] herman Bergson: oh yes....

[13:23] Velvet (velvet.braham): refusal means that they considered another option

[13:23] CB Axel: People who are unhappy with their lives seem to be easy to radicalize.

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Islam in itself is no terror religion but some madmen have rewritten it into a system to opress women, kill innocent people and so on

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): It was not like that from start

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now its out if control

[13:23] herman Bergson: Let's not discuss that issue Bejiita..plz :-)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with lunatics like IS

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however we always have a free will

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are not remote controled

[13:24] herman Bergson: that is the question,Bejiita...

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the value of your free will if you refuse to do something and then they kill your sister?

[13:24] herman Bergson: to what extend can we say we have a free will...free in what sense

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): Exactly, Bejiita, that's where I'm at

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): Your choices can be severely limited, but you've not given up your will

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its tricky and I can only see it from my perspective since I know i decide always what i want and is free to do so

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and its also part of my personality

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I decide what i want, not any other

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): When would you not have free will?

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): when you die I guess:)

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...you are not free at all then...you are victim of your personality :-)))

[13:27] CB Axel: lol

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well that you can say indeed

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): changing personality is indeed difficult

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but what decide personality, interests and so. Is it genetic?

[13:28] herman Bergson: That was my next thought Bejiita....

[13:28] herman Bergson: let me go one step further....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can take an example I have always been technically intrested even as a kid, was that determined genetically?

[13:28] herman Bergson: suppose your personality is just the product of the chemistery of yoyr brain....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical

[13:28] herman Bergson: and that chemistry is controlled by physical laws....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): but your personality is a combinatio of genetics and life experience

[13:29] herman Bergson: which are fixed chains of causes and effects....

[13:29] herman Bergson: all that stuff is stored in your brian Velvet

[13:29] herman Bergson: andin genes

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): hmmmm

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true. an example of that can be my interest in street dance and similat

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i got from a web series called LXD in 2010

[13:30] CB Axel: Then we do not have free will because all of this was set in motion by the big bang and physical laws have brought us to this point.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so thats not from birth but later influence

[13:30] herman Bergson: Very TRUE CB :-))

[13:30] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡ CB... I like that thought

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): So either we all have free will

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also I’ve always liked to be active in general

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): or we don't and it's an illusion

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe a combination

[13:31] herman Bergson: The fact that we are here together is the result of the BIg Bang indeed :-))

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: Let me give you some hope...:-)

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think my brain broke

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe

[13:32] herman Bergson: Maybe there a kind of in between...

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): please yes

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (tries to reboot Velvet like my router before) Hmm there is no switch

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:32] herman Bergson: ok..that is for th enext lectures then :-))

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol but thanks for trying!

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its a complicated subject indeed i realize

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: heheh

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Seems so many things affect who you are and how you choose

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i needed that hope, was looking out for it,, andnow I have to wait till Monday....

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): or NOTHING DOES

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Till Tuesday Beertje ..lol

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): There's no reason to leave this chair

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: maybe try "the big porn experiment" for understanding biology and surrounding ;)

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Basically i have a theory, some of our free will might be decided by our hard coded personality while the rest is completley free

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ahhh yes,, even a day longer :(

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one way I could descrime it

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm just going to stay here until Tuesday

[13:34] herman Bergson: Hold on.....

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): there's no point

[13:34] herman Bergson: Ciska wants us to look at something....

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: its fun ;)

[13:34] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: so...everyone....watch it...

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: it explains addiction

[13:35] herman Bergson: back in a sec or so :-)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa a TED

[13:35] CB Axel: You can't make me watch anything! lol

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: it just explains addiction and how it works but as people can get rid of it they need a free will

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: so here you have a neurologist explaining experience ( here porn on net) with body reaction

[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman ㋡ Going home, enjoy everyone :)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting indeed

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): Wow, Ciska, I'm 2 minutes in and I see how this will break my brain even more.

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: I hope not

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you for that! I'm trying to separate making choices & being influenced

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): from having no control over the "choice"

[13:39] herman Bergson: lol..this goes on for 16 minutes Ciska :-)

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: its long yes - but he explains it very well

[13:39] herman Bergson: What doe it explain?

[13:39] herman Bergson: does

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: addiction how it is wired in the brain

[13:40] herman Bergson: My free will?

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: and how giving up

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: makes the brain go back

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: giving up is free will yes

[13:40] herman Bergson: I see...

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are hard coded with a sex drive as well which indeed have an effect on us and that can be very hard to ignore

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pulling us into it sort of

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): Yes, but that brings my mind back to have a choice

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): which may be against our "code"

[13:41] herman Bergson: wow...just imagine..philosophers mainly love books :-)

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): but we can still do it

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: addicted to page turning :-)

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: heheeh herman

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): and when Herman gets a new book.....

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you still can resist it but it clearly affect you

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): right, but you still have free will

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it doesnt completley overtake your free will

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): high five

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he has a free will to trow the book out o the window...

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes it restores the free will somehow but it explains that we can decide against addictions even if they are strong

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): still not losing free will

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its like a magnet pulling on you but its not stronger then that you can pull free if you like

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: you need to want this yes

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: wanting has hormones set free too

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: so

[13:43] herman Bergson: I guess we need to dosme more thinking about free will -)

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: chemical reaction as well

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: otherwise we'll all drowned in porn :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ehehe

[13:44] Door Deluxe Plus: Charles Barth has just entered your land !

[13:44] herman Bergson: in porn :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looool

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hahahah

[13:44] herman Bergson: But blame it on Ciska!

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hahahhahaha

[13:44] CB Axel: lol

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): So I may think I will choose to come to the next lecture, but I will have no choice

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: sorry - he just explains it so well

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: and short

[13:44] herman Bergson: she took our free will :-)

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: for that kind of topic

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): It's a great video, Ciska

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for this pleasant debate...

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however much porn is not something id like to do for real, good sex feels awesome indeed but the way its often described in porn is exaggerated

[13:45] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we don't have to watch the video ....

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this was interesting indeed and for sure a REAL brain turner

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe need to reboot myself afterwards

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): omg

[13:46] CB Axel: That's what sleep is. Rebooting. °͜°

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] herman Bergson: Just find your RESET button,Bekiita :-))

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: take care

[13:46] herman Bergson: Must be somewhere!

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs all ㋡

[13:46] CB Axel: See you Tuesday.

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:46] CB Axel: Hello, Charles. You just missed the class.

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): You guys are amazing. Thank you!

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: have a good one everyone

[13:47] herman Bergson: Thank youVelvet...so are you :-)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye

[13:47] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Velvet Braham donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all, sweet dreams:))

602: Challenging thoughts......

And here we are…. THE INDIVIDUAL, surrounded by his crown jewels, as collected in the course of history.

The individual has become  a person, conscious of the fact that he is just one single mind, not the master of the Universe,

but able to be a social being, living together in peace with his fellowmen and endowed with natural rights of life, freedom, health and property.

There are no predefined criteria to determine what to choose in life, but he is aware that there are conscious and subconscious forces that drive him.

Altogether, the individual creates and defines himself. Who and what he is, is not predetermined, but the result of his own choices.

In other words, he begins existence like a stone exists, but creates his essence by the choices he makes during his life.

I refer to the individual as a “he/him/his”, but do not worry, that is just a stylistic matter. Wherever you read “he/him/his”, she/her/hers” is meant equivalently.

That the female individual in a number of cultures is not described as I describe the individual here, IS a serious issue, but beyond the scope of this project.

This being said, let’s return to our main theme. Creating your essence by  your choices…..it sounds intelligible and we all know how choosing works.

You have for instance three options, A, B and C and you say, I choose B and I don’t care whatever anyone thinks of my choice: I want B.

You have the power to do so and others say…”Ahh, she WANTS B…fine”. So everything seems to be in perfect order…….

if it weren’t that there are philosophers and they ask questions. And they ask, what do you think you are doing?!

I guess you’ll answer, that you acts according to your personal preferences and according to your personal will. Thence you feel perfectly free to do so.

And then we have to discover, that our common sense perception of what we might call “our free will” is like Swish cheese: full of big holes.

Ok, free will, the philosopher says….tell me…are you religious? No… Ok, you chose B, was it out of politeness or any other preference?

You frown and think…. did I limit my freedom of choice perhaps….and if not what happened then, when I chose?

And you say….no ..no…nothing of the kind. I picked B completely free from any bias or limitation or whatever…

So, you say it was just at random? Yes!…. But when it was just at random, in what sense was it then your CHOICE?

And you say to the philosopher, “Plz would you excuse me, I need an aspirin and that is not a free choice but mandatory after this conversation…”

“I am so sorry”, the philosopher says. “Just wanted to bring to your attention, that we have some thoughts and questions about the free will issue.”

From its earliest beginnings, the problem of "free will" has been a subject of philosophical analysis and, of course, intimately connected with the question of moral responsibility. 

Most of the ancient thinkers on the problem were trying to show, that we humans have control over our decisions, that our actions "depend on us", 

and that they are not pre-determined by fate, by arbitrary gods, by logical necessity, or by a natural causal determinism.

So, I think, that we have to do some work on the question in what sense the individual, as we have described him, is indeed a free individual,  that is …with a free will and in what sense.

Thank you for your attention….the floor is yours…..^_^

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: You are free to make remarks or ask questions :-)

[13:20] CB Axel: Well, first...aspirin is not mandatory. Acetaminophen or ibuprofen can be just as affective for philosopher induced headaches. °͜°

[13:20] herman Bergson: No will at all here? :-)

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ::-)

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB

[13:21] herman Bergson: I would NOT recommend Ibuprofen, CB...

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are so many conflicting views on this

[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemma and we are going enjoy them all :-))

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I feel like i am using free will

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when I decide something

[13:22]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): A pity I don't remember the 4 causes theory of Aristotle, but Plato also described the whole issue I believe when he was addressing the matter, we can say we sit here because our (pixel) bones are arranged so and so, or that we decided to ... the problem arrises when one view tries to be exclusive.

[13:22] herman Bergson: the fun is...we all think we do :-)

[13:22] CB Axel: Even if our will is influenced by religion, morals, habit, or custom we choose to be influenced by those.

[13:22] CB Axel: Don't we?

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: jup

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true if we realize it

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some don’t i think

[13:23] CB Axel: Psychopaths choose not to be.

[13:23] herman Bergson: But when it is the result of education, CB?

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: matter of consciousness

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:23]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): As for influences, I strongly believe we can emancipate from pretty much everything.

[13:23] herman Bergson: You are born is a religious family and raised that way

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:24] CB Axel: Yeah. We don't get to choose our education, do we? Hmmm.

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: the question is if you question it ;)

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it takes a long time to get over that if ever

[13:24] CB Axel: I have veered far to the left of what my parents taught me.

[13:24] herman Bergson: But suppose someone  stimulates you to question it Csika....

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): me too, CB

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: then I decide if i'm stimulated by it or not - no?

[13:25] herman Bergson: REally?

[13:25] herman Bergson: Supppose you are in love with the person?

[13:25] CB Axel: That someone has probably stimulated someone else to question, too, but hasn't. But that's probably because they've been indoctrinated into not questioning.

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: well as not everyone is responding to listening to a philosophy class  - I guess so ;)

[13:26]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): don't think of a red fox! ;)

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...a nice bunch of questions already....

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: being in love with someone makes the hormone system more active which might bring a temporary or long term taking over of the love

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ahh a nice one Nick!

[13:27]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): hehe

[13:27]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): :)

[13:27] CB Axel: I can't think of a red fox. I'm already thinking of an elephant someone told me not to think about earlier.

[13:27]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): lol

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): CB is always ready

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: heheh

[13:27] herman Bergson: I am color blind :-)

[13:27]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): we are all influenceable

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: sure

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:27]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): good one Herman :)

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: but what sticks?

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: don'T we pick and choose that?

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): influence doesn't negate free will

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and later it may change in our minds anyway

[13:28] herman Bergson: Bu tthen we first need to define FREE WILL Velvet...

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma ;)

[13:28]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): I think choices build up in a way, like become a path ... Sartre wrote about that I believe

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: (especially when u have two x chromosomes)

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): getting ahead of myself again!

[13:29]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): existential inclination or something

[13:29] herman Bergson: I guess one thing is absolutely become clear here....

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it is interesting to think that all those guys uttering their thoughts on the individual were mostly thinking male gender anyway

[13:29] herman Bergson: free will si not an easy piece at all....

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and most women around them never really had free will at that time

[13:30]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): it is not indeed :) but nothing is if you think of it in absolutes, and free will begs absolute terms a lot maybe?

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: well they might have had some but they could not live it openly ;)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or ever thought they did

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): I was probably 15 when I realized I had choices

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think i was about 40

[13:31] herman Bergson: We had 30+ female philosophers presented here...:-)

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): before that, no free will at all

[13:31] CB Axel: lol

[13:31] herman Bergson: But I admit...they are a minority....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we studied them

[13:32] herman Bergson: while women are at least 50% of the world population :-)

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): well, that's a sad state of affairs

[13:32] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Sneaks out, enjoy ㋡

[13:32] herman Bergson: it is indeed Velvet......

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it was and still is in some places

[13:32] CB Axel: Good night, Chantal.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye chantal

[13:33] herman Bergson: We almost leave 50% of all intellectual talent in this world unused...

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): Perhaps the women are too busy running things to stop and examine the philosophy of it.

[13:33] herman Bergson: There was a Madame de Curie....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Why not a female Einstein

[13:34] CB Axel: I was thinking along that same line, Velvet. °͜°

[13:34] herman Bergson: but this is another subject :-))

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): Marie Curie was badass.

[13:34] herman Bergson: lol...was she?

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): heck, yes.

[13:34] CB Axel: Pierre Curie was too, for recognizing that Marie could contribute.

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): he was smart enough to recognize her

[13:35] herman Bergson: For those who love the gossip..check them out at Wikipedia or better sources :-)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:35] herman Bergson: Follow  your own free will here ^_^

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): homework!

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think i remember doing that

[13:36] CB Axel: I've never had gossip assigned as homework before. °͜°

[13:36] herman Bergson: Cool , isnt it, CB :-)

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sometimes it has to be the first time CB:)

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): Philosophy keeps surprising me

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( it was my free will to write this)

[13:37] herman Bergson: WEll, at least it has become clear that FREE WILL as such is not just a simple issue....

[13:37] herman Bergson: No Beertje...it was caused by the dialog here...:-)

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:37] herman Bergson: so no free will in that :-)

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very involved as usual

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: maybe free will is limited by reality ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: this is reality..:-)

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): hang on, it was influenced by the discussion

[13:38] CB Axel: Reality. Man I hate that stuff.

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): but Beertje always had free will to participate

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: so for us it looks free because there are so many possibilities that we cannot oversee the combinations

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Ciska...the many options situation....

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: hence it feels free

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:39]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): I think we always have givens, total emancipation is impossible ... also no view from nowhere ... so our decisions are always based on both givens and partial views.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Just what you say...we FEEL free.....

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: sure

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:40] herman Bergson: That is the randomness situation or total indeterminism as it is called Nick....yes

[13:40] CB Axel: So we are not all individuals since each one of us influences, and therefore takes away, our free will.

[13:40] CB Axel: Each other's free will.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, I don't think influence is the same as taking away

[13:41] CB Axel: Alright, limits then?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..CB...your freedom limits mine and mutatis mutandis mine limits yours...

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): well, limits yes, but even those are elf-imposed

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol self-imposed

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: I can say : polly wants a cookie

[13:42] CB Axel: LOL. Now elves are influencing me? That explains a lot!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: does not make sense in the situation here

[13:42] herman Bergson: self imposed or not...is that a free choice Velvet?

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: but i'm free to do so

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): yes!

[13:42]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): I think to get to the core (ontologically) we are more social being then individuals anyway :)

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: so of course I will follow an aim - discussing things here - the topic

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: thats my choice

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: otherwise I would have rezzed somewhere as a bird

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have done that

[13:43] herman Bergson: I think you all feel what this is al about....

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha gemma

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): been a toucan in class

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we had our own stand too

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that herman made

[13:44] herman Bergson: Picture is on the wall Gemma :-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: up there :-))

[13:44] CB Axel: Nice

[13:44] herman Bergson: to my right

[13:45] herman Bergson: I think it is time for a systematic analysis of this problem of free will....

[13:46] herman Bergson: not right now....we can spend some lectures on the subject :-)

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:46] herman Bergson: philosophers quarreled about a 2300 years about it and still do

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:47] Guestboook van tipjar stand: CB Axel donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:47] CB Axel: So we are carrying on a fine tradition.

[13:47] herman Bergson: SO...for today...thank you all for your stimulating participation again.....

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thanx folks

[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you Professor!

[13:48] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman ㋡

[13:48] CB Axel: And thanks to everyone for such a good discussion. °͜°

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: have a great week everyone

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to make it thursday

[13:48] CB Axel: See you on Thursday.

[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm totally going to research the Curies

[13:48] herman Bergson: Dont get too drunk Gemma :-)

[13:49]  Nιﮮк (nick.cassavetes): ty Herman, very cool that you still do these classes :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: yes...must have been a couple, Velvet ^_^

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): well, that much I knew! Thank you again Professor!

[13:49] herman Bergson: My pleasure Velvet...

601: The Individual is born...

I thought it might be helpful to put all we have discussed so far in a diagram. 

It recapitulates nicely all we have said about the concept of the individual as it developed in Europe.

Just look at it closely….it is quite a picture….

In fact it is a rather unique picture. Nowhere in the world has developed such a view of man except in Europe.

The ultimate conclusion of this individual  could be, that he is all alone in the universe and has to discover why he exists all by himself.

So let’s turn our attention to Jean-Paul Sartre (1905 -1980). He argues that mankind is abandoned in the world. 

This is not to say mankind has been abandoned in the sense of 'left behind' or 'neglected' by something or someone.

For Sartre there is nothing "out there" that could have abandoned us in this way. Rather, mankind is abandoned because there is no God to give human life purpose or moral direction.

Sartre's adoption of the notion of abandonment is the clearest possible expression of his profound atheism, his view that mankind is a cosmic accident and not the product of some higher design on the part of God or gods.

This conclusion brings us to the quintessence of Sartre's existentialism. As the human being is uncreated the idea or essence of each person does not precede his existence. Thence existence precedes essence.

With this maxim Sartre wants to say that the human being first exists without goal or definition and finds himself in the world. As a reaction on this awareness he defines the meaning of his existence.

This is the very opposite of philosophical idealism which we already find with Plato and Aristoteles. For Sartre it is not ideas, essences or minds that are primary but pure existence in the form of Being-IN-itself.

Being-IN-itself, like a stone just IS, does not depend on anything else for its being, whereas Being-FOR-itself, the basis of consciousness and ideas, arises through the negation of Being-IN-itself.

Sartre places negation at the centre of his ontological theory of consciousness, his theory of Being-FOR-itself. 

In "Being and Nothingness" he argues that the only kind of being that can exist as a relation to reality or the world is a being that is, in itself, nothing, the negation of Being-IN-itself.

This may sound pretty abstract and you may wonder what he means by this. Let me try to explain. We are in the world in two ways. 

On the one hand we are a material object, a body and as such we exist in the same way a stone exists.

Consciousness, however, makes us aware of our Being and is as such the negation of our Being-IN-itself. We become without purpose or design a Being-FOR-itself. Impossible to be in the world like a stone is.

The designer of the meaning of our live are we ourselves. We create ourselves by making choices, groundless choices, but we have to choose for even not choosing is a choice.

Sartre's general claim is that ultimately choice is always and unavoidably based upon arbitrary decisions. 

His view is that if a choice could be guided and influenced in any way by beliefs, convictions or values, it would be a caused phenomenon rather than a genuinely free choice.

In the novels of Sartre we meet the ultimate individual, an unknown concept to many people on this earth. What to think of this situation ???

Thank you for your  attention…the floor is yours…

The Discussion

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson smiles

[13:21] herman Bergson: not a easy one today I guess :-)

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit tricky but i think I get it some

[13:22] herman Bergson: Bsic idea is that you define yourself, design your own existence.....

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the idea that we have a purpose is our own idea sort of if i get his ideas right

[13:22] herman Bergson: there si no karma or fate or things like that for you...

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since we are not created for a specific purpose but just happen to be here

[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed bejiita...you define your own purpose in life

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Me myself decide my interests for ex, part of it might be genetic what you are interested in however

[13:24] herman Bergson: IN a way we are a being -IN - itself...we are just there...

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause I’ve even since little been very technically interested for x

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ex

[13:24] herman Bergson: But our ocnsciousness tells us THAT we are there....a next step which never happens to a stone...

[13:25] CB Axel: Lucky stone

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:25] Uli Helendale: Does Sartre discuss an existential crisis? Where we come to the understanding that we have no meaning?

[13:25] Areyn Laurasia: seems like such a cold detached sterile existence

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have a meaning and that is to discover how everything else work, with machines like LHC and spaceships

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes CB..we would LOVE to be just a stone on this earth.....escaping our responsibility to choose

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I mean we have a built in curiosity drive

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the urge to discover

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least most of us have

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): least

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): including me

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and to experiment

[13:27] herman Bergson: What is an existential crisis Uli?

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why Bejiita?

[13:27] Uli Helendale: The point at which we face the notion that there is nothing, no god or other force who can provide us with meaning.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Isn't is philosophical interesting that you call suhan observation a crisis?

[13:28] herman Bergson: isnt that begging the question?

[13:28] herman Bergson: But your remark is very interesting...

[13:29] Uli Helendale: I think I make the distinction because it is a crisis for some. Maybe not for all, anymore.

[13:29] Areyn Laurasia: like the look in the eyes of someone on their deathbed

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes I agree Uli...

[13:29] Uli Helendale: (I see it as a wonderful opportunity)

[13:30] Areyn Laurasia: an empowering opportunity :)

[13:30] herman Bergson: Bu tit is a crisis for those who believe in  whatever ....which defines their lives

[13:30] Uli Helendale: Yes.

[13:31] herman Bergson: We defined the individual.....

[13:31] herman Bergson: I think it is an amazing fact...

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: Sartre took everything away from the individual...reduced it to a Cartesian ERGO SUM...

[13:32] herman Bergson: Just look arounfd in this world....

[13:32] herman Bergson: this kind of thinking is a Western product only....

[13:33] herman Bergson: bu tthe consequence of this "product" is that we have medicines, physics, psychology, and whatever sciences there are to understand our existence

[13:34] Areyn Laurasia: which level of the individual are we looking at? who you think you are? who you are based on how you appear? or who others think you are?

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all of it I guess

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we define ourselves, no one else, no god or whatever

[13:34] herman Bergson: I think that is a psychological question Areyn....

[13:34] Uli Helendale: Are you contrasting the Western individual to an idea of the individual as in relation to others, to nature, etc.?

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is thus nothing as fate

[13:35] Uli Helendale: A more communal individual?

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes yes Uli...I am contrasting our concept of  "the individual" to any other culture on this earth

[13:36] herman Bergson: and this from a Darwinian point of view...where is our chance of survival...

[13:36] herman Bergson: for instance...in Islam????

[13:36] herman Bergson: just to name a popular subject :-)

[13:37] Uli Helendale: hmmm, that makes me wonder about your conclusion that the Western individual is a scientific individual. More communal cultures may not focus on science as much but certainly have meaningful ways of thinking about things that don't align with our Western understanding.

[13:38] herman Bergson: that doesn’t answer the question of survival...

[13:38] herman Bergson: better medicines offer better chances....

[13:38] herman Bergson: not better meaningful ways of thinking

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and u need science to make medicine

[13:39] herman Bergson: my point bejiita...

[13:39] herman Bergson: so you need a scientific analysis of reality

[13:39] Uli Helendale: Communal cultures, or those that come from "developing" countries, often have medicinal treatments that work for them. Also, their way of living harmoniously with nature provides for a sustainable approach to living on this planet.

[13:39] Uli Helendale: But yes, I understand what you're saying. :)

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: if the western individual is a scientific individual, why then the illogical choice?

[13:40] herman Bergson: which illogical choice Areyn?

[13:42] herman Bergson: which illogical....:-)

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: a few years back, the west did nothing with Syria, today, they are throwing billions and helpless under the deluge of refugees and more fearful and hateful sentiments in the western society

[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): (sneaks out to turn in, too tired, enjoy everyone)

[13:42] herman Bergson: ahh...

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Chantal

[13:42] herman Bergson: keep in mind one thing....

[13:43] herman Bergson: it is common practice to compare the human brain to a computer....

[13:43] herman Bergson: there is no greater nonsense than that...

[13:43] Uli Helendale: I have to go as well, but thank you. I'll come to another of these discussions. :)

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Uli

[13:43] herman Bergson: a computer is a completely predictable determinate machine..our brain isn’t at all..

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): A computer can not feel, its just switches dumbly following whatever is fed to it

[13:44] herman Bergson: our brain is a mass of conflicting processes...

[13:44] herman Bergson: one process we call rationality...the prefrontal lobe at work....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all a computer can sense is voltage or no voltage 1 and 0 no matter what it is doing

[13:45] herman Bergson: bu tthat is just a part of our brain....we are much more complex...

[13:45] herman Bergson: so we are able to create chaos

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): isn't the whole universe chaos?

[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: entropy? :)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a computer can't create chaos as even a random number generator have to be based on definite math for a computer to be able to process

[13:46] herman Bergson: I donn't know Beertje :-)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true chaos cant be described wit a formula, its just everything messed up

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): divided evenly

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all over

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): blended

[13:47] herman Bergson: And if it was...I dont mind ...all here seems pretty  organised :-)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I like controlled chaos and that i guess you could use a computer for

[13:47] herman Bergson: Bejiita's particles are in chaos now Beertje!

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed they are since the machines are still off

[13:48] herman Bergson: The it i better to end this chaos for today, dear friends :-)

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but lot of data to go through still

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this was something to think about anyway

[13:48] Areyn Laurasia: that's one way to put it into order :)

[13:48] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation again....Class dismissed....

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time ㋡

[13:49] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[[13:49] herman Bergson: My pleasure CB :-)

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡ great lecture Herman, thank you

[13:49] CB Axel: Much to think about.

[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: indeed