640: The joy of nihilism...

As we noticed last week the naturalist explanation of our existence offers little material, which could help use answer the question why we are here.

   

This could lead to the conclusion, that life as we know it in this universe is just a meaningless coincidence.

   

Some people feel rather uncomfortable to know that we are just survival machines, as Richard Dawkins calls the living organisms in het book “The Selfish Gen”.

   

The fact that organisms survive does not imply any purpose. There is no final goal or direction which we are heading for.

   

From this point of view human life is only an objectless insignificant accident.

  

My goodness…..if this is all there is ?! A lot of people don’t like this observation at all. They even do not wish to have it true.

   

The first word, which may come to mind in this context is the word “NIHILISM”. What everybody at least knows is that this word has a negative connotation.

  

The term nihilism  appears to have been coined in Russia sometime in the second quarter of the nineteenth century around  1860.

  

Use of the term spread rapidly throughout Europe and the Americas. As it did, the term lost most 

  

of its anarchistic and revolutionary flavour, ceasing to evoke the image of a political program or even an intellectual movement.

  

On the one hand, the term is widely used to denote the doctrine that moral norms or standards cannot be justified by rational argument. 

  

On the other hand, it is widely used to denote a mood of despair over the emptiness or triviality of human existence. 

  

This double meaning appears to derive from the fact that the term was often employed in the nineteenth century by the religiously oriented 

  

as a club against atheists, atheists being regarded as ipso facto nihilists in both senses.     

   

The atheist, it was held, would not feel bound by moral norms; consequently, he would tend to be callous or selfish, even criminal.

  

There are many literary prototypes of the atheist-nihilist. The most famous are Ivan in Fëdor Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov  and Kirilov in Dostoevsky’s The Possessed.  

  

It was into Ivan’s mouth that Dostoevsky put the words, “If God does not exist, everything is permitted.”

  

You still hear such statements and I still do not see the logical relation between the existence of a god and the absence or presence of moral standards, especially when you look at the work of Frans de Waal with primates.

And I am not the only one.  Friedrich Nietzsche was the first great philosopher  and still the only one to make extensive use of the term nihilism.

   

He was also one of the first atheists to dispute the existence of a necessary link between atheism and nihilism.

  

The tendency to associate nihilism with atheism continues to the present.  During the course of the twentieth century, however, 

  

the image of the nihilist changed, with a corresponding change in the analysis of nihilism’s causes and consequences.

   

In a more contemporary view  nihilism is caused not so much by atheism as by industrialization and social pressures, 

  

and its typical consequences are not selfishness or suicide but indifference, ironical detachment, or sheer bafflement.

   

All together nihilism is an interesting answer to the question of the meaning of life. It seems to be not a popular one, but yet a challenging one…

    

Thank you… ^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

Julian Baggini, What's It All About? Philosophy and the Meaning of Life (2004)  

Richard David Precht, Wer bin ich, und wenn ja, wie viele? (2007)

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: nihil questions or remarks are expected :-))

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Hmm no nihilism expert but i know somewhat what it defines

[13:24] Starr (lynstarr): i don't see how nilihism answer the question on the meaning of life

[13:24] herman Bergson: well for us..most interesting one is "a mood of despair over the emptiness or triviality of human existence. "

[13:24] CB Axel: I'm still thinking.

[13:25] CB Axel: That's about how I feel.

[13:25] herman Bergson: What fascinates me it the fact that a lot of people have problems with the idea that life has no meaning or purpose at al...but just is

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: mh- whats the psychological approach on that?

[13:26] herman Bergson: A need for certainty and security, Ciska?

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the definition of nihilism would suggest they are bloodthirsty murderers and robbers since they done believe in any moral and thus it doesnt matter what they do

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): damn cant type today, too much pythin coding before

[13:27] herman Bergson: no no Bejiita.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: They just claim that we can not formulate absolute moral standards based on our rationality

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or do they just think everything is meaninglss, nihilism as i get it is at least no happy view in general

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said no expert

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just know the term vaguely

[13:28] herman Bergson: YEs BEjiita a lot of us do...

[13:28] herman Bergson: we only know that it has a negative connotation :-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:28] herman Bergson: which is quite interesting....

[13:29] herman Bergson: the other interesting feature is that it is often associated with atheism....

[13:29] Starr (lynstarr): that sounds logical

[13:30] herman Bergson: understandable....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no god no moral ?

[13:30] CB Axel: I think that what worries people about nihilism is your first definition of the word. "moral norms or standards cannot be justified by rational argument."

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is only logical if you assume the premise that only a religion can offer us moral standards.....which is nonsense in my opinion

[13:31] CB Axel: They are afraid that if moral norms cannot be justified then anarchy will ensue.

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes indeed CB...

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: but atheism itself has no moral standards - has it?

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, i dont believe in god but moral and reason are very important things to me, without it would be chaos

[13:31] herman Bergson: early nihilists were also anarchists

[13:31] Starr (lynstarr): if there is no, idk, ultimate morality, then there is none

[13:31] CB Axel: Let me share a picture with you, Herman, since I can't rez a prim here...

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we would do terrible things to each other all time

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like beasts

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or i dont know

[13:32] herman Bergson: there you are mistaken Bejiita.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: The social behavior of many animals is often more civilized than human behavior

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least we have some sort of built in empathy and such so maybe not that bad, also our individual personality play a role

[13:33] Starr (lynstarr): and more times not

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a very complex subject

[13:33] herman Bergson: a lot of animals have this built in empathy too

[13:33] CB Axel: Ciska, the moral standards people attribute to a god are, through experiments with babies and (other) apes show that they occur naturally.

[13:34] herman Bergson: atheism isnt a philosophy on ethics....

[13:34] Starr (lynstarr): what standards?

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example i don’t think i could ever become a murderer even if moral and such did not existed, i cant see me do a such terrible thing, have alays ben a nice social guy since littl

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): little

[13:34] herman Bergson: it is an ontological philosophy about what exists and what does not exist...

[13:34] Starr (lynstarr): that is because the society has had moral standards

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: atheism itself does not say anything about moral to my knowledge ... so if someon identifies as an atheist it does not say anything about his moral standarts at all

[13:35] CB Axel: Moral standards that we are born with.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so too

[13:35] Starr (lynstarr): what moral standards are we born with?

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its in us and we need no god for that

[13:36] CB Axel: I was called a "good Christian" not too long ago, because I had done something nice. It was really hard to not laugh out loud.

[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): where do you get that?

[13:36] herman Bergson: As I said....unless you uphold the premise that moral standards are only possible under supernatural rulership by a god

[13:36] CB Axel: Herman, where are the links to those two experiments you showed us weeks ago? I think Starr needs to see them.

[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): you were influenced by the standards of morality you grew up in

[13:37] CB Axel: Infants show empathy. Apes show empathy.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true

[13:37] herman Bergson: here is one....

[13:37] CB Axel: You don't need to be taught what's right and what's wrong. Studies have shown this.

[13:37] herman Bergson: cant find the other

[13:38] Starr (lynstarr): where is this sense of right and wrong? who is to say what is right and what is wrong?

[13:38] CB Axel: Watch the video.

[13:38] herman Bergson: nature, Starr...

[13:38] herman Bergson: our social brain...

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so too

[13:39] herman Bergson: Here is the other

[13:39] Starr (lynstarr): then if i am having a moment of natural anger am i justified to act out as i feel?

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa those 2 videos

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Starr.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: But that doesn’t mean that your feelings are just uncontroled random events

[13:41] CB Axel: Starr, you can act like that, but you will know (and others will let you know) that you were wrong to do so.

[13:41] Starr (lynstarr): i'm wondering if we are talking about the same thing

[13:41] herman Bergson: they will be in line with your social context and behavior

[13:41] herman Bergson: just watch these two videos, Starr....

[13:42] herman Bergson: they even make a nihilist happy ^_^

[13:42] CB Axel: Watch the videos. Monkeys and babies understand right and wrong and fairness.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] Starr (lynstarr): okay, let's say we are born with some sort of sense of good and bad... why?

[13:42] herman Bergson: survival, Starr

[13:42] CB Axel nods

[13:43] herman Bergson: only social behavior makes it possible to survive in and as a group

[13:43] Starr (lynstarr): i understand what you are saying

[13:43] herman Bergson: But our theme is ...WHy should we ever want to survive...what is the meaning of it...? :-)

[13:44] Starr (lynstarr): but i don't think i am expressing myself well

[13:44] CB Axel: Those who couldn't understand that were shunned by the group and couldn't survive on their own.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Dont worry Starr...we got all the time of the world here.....

[13:44] Starr (lynstarr): yes, Mr. Bergson, that is a good question.. why do we want to survive

[13:44] herman Bergson: many lectures to come still :-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] CB Axel: This doesn't explain why we should want to survive. That's true, Herman.

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): many questions as well:)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Starr...indeed a challenging question

[13:46] CB Axel: Curiosity about what's going to happen next?

[13:46] herman Bergson: I think you should look at it from the other side.....

[13:46] CB Axel: Is that a reason?

[13:46] herman Bergson: there is no "wanting" to survive....

[13:46] herman Bergson: we exists...like all other organisms....

[13:47] herman Bergson: never seen a tree drop dead willingly :-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Like Dawkins says....the gen just strives to exist...period

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why?

[13:47] Starr (lynstarr): how do we know if a tree committed suicide or not?  LOL

[13:47] herman Bergson: because it exists Beertje.....

[13:48] herman Bergson: it is innate in the system

[13:48] CB Axel is trying to picture how a tree would commit suicide.

[13:48] herman Bergson smiles

[13:49] CB Axel pictures a tree hanging itself from the next tree over.

[13:49] herman Bergson: indeed an intriguing issue

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only humans can do that I suppose

[13:49] Starr (lynstarr): maybe that's it, CB... tree can't... even if it wanted to

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: whales maybe?

[13:49] herman Bergson: as such it is an interesting matter......

[13:49] herman Bergson: by choice ending your life....

[13:50] herman Bergson: can only humans do that?

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also plants are alive but can they feel? they neither move or talk

[13:50] CB Axel: Perhaps some creatures can just lose the will to live and fail to thrive.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): except for the Venus fly trap that is

[13:50] Starr (lynstarr): yeh

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): venus

[13:51] herman Bergson: I just in my newspaper that that even isnt true anymore Bejiita....

[13:51] CB Axel: Venus fly traps talk?

[13:51] herman Bergson: plants purposefully interact with their environment...

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no but they move

[13:51] CB Axel: All plants, at least green ones, move.

[13:51] CB Axel: Like toward the sun.

[13:51] Starr (lynstarr): they speak venusian

[13:51] CB Axel: Look at a field of sunflowers in the summer. °͜°

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i had one once and when it  died i felt sad for it

[13:51] CB Axel: LOL, Starr.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, trees warn each other when there is a sickness ]

[13:51] Starr (lynstarr): :)

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but id probably do that for some other ones too, i have an orchid here thats been with me entire time i have lived here

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes Beertje..things like that...

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it s become a bit like a fiend

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): friend

[13:52] CB Axel: That's right, Beertje. I forgot about that!

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (I live in near the forest)..

[13:53] herman Bergson: It doesn’t mean that plants are conscious beings.....

[13:53] herman Bergson: but they are more than just green things

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in a way they are

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:54] herman Bergson: Talk to your orchid Bejiita and it will kiss you :-))

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] herman Bergson: All in all...I get the feeling that Nihilism yet is fun :-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no flowers on it at the moment but it just looms agai and again and have tone so for around 10 years

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): blooms

[13:55] herman Bergson: wow....

[13:55] CB Axel: I'm not sure that nihilism is fun, but it certainly is interesting.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes another interesting subject among others

[13:55] herman Bergson: Ok CB...there is little fun in nihil ^_^

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: inrwewaarinf ia  a special kind of fun ;)

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: oops

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: interessting

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: darn.. typo day here too

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaa coded python as well?

[13:56] CB Axel: I may have to make a "Nihilism is FUN" shirt. LOL

[13:56] herman Bergson: We all speak our languages here Ciska :-)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): don’t think its that though

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: heheh no - just my brain liking the rearrangement of the letters game ;)

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): working on yet another game featuring surralism and will make it with python

[13:57] CB Axel: Your keyboard has adopted a nihilistic philosophy.

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: that would be great cb - count me in as a buyer hahah

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: I bet

[13:57] herman Bergson: Guess that is it CB :-)

[13:58] herman Bergson: Well....guess we had our talk again today.....

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: (may I ask a stupid question ? does the ghost town hud dissolve by itself? does anyone here know?

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again Herman

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: )

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:58] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thanx all

639: A first attempt......

To get some hold on the meaning of life we can ask ourselves, where did it come from and where does it lead to.

  

Like a road, which originated  from the wish to be able to travel from A to B, which lead to the traffic from A to B.

  

Origin and purpose coincide here, which makes it quite understandable, but applied to the origin and purpose of life, it is quite different.

   

What I wish to add too, is, that those of you who have attended a number of projects of The Philosophy Class will notice, that aspects of these projects will reappear in this project. 

  

This is of course due to the fact that we assumed that the question we are dealing with now, is in fact a container of many questions.

   

If you assume, for instance, that the meaning of life is defined by our actions, then it will be related to historical, economical, social, ethical and psychological actions.

     

And in the previous projects we already have discussed a lot of these issues here.

   

So let’s return to our question of today: does our origin sheds light on the question why we are here?

  

All together you could discern two sets of theories, which boil down to what we might call creationism and naturalism.

   

Creationist theories claim that the origin of man is found in some supernatural power, which has a purpose in mind with its creation.

   

Naturalist theories state that human life emerged as the result of some blind and random physical process.

   

A philosopher like Spinoza takes a kind of position in the middle here, when he refers to God and Nature as being one and the same.

   

Let’s have a look at the naturalist theory. When you look at our diagram behind me, you see that evidence is an important ingredient of any proper discussion.

  

In that sense there is an overwhelming amount of evidence, which supports naturalist theories of the origin of mankind.

   

From the Big Bang theory up to “On the Origin of Species” by Darwin. You may believe in the Big Bang theory, 

  

but nowhere in this theory is an explanation of what caused this Big Bang, except historically 

   

that the theory was invented by Georges Lemaitre (1894 – 1966) , a Belgian Roman-Catholic priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Leuven.

    

I even found a book with the title “The Universe Before the Big Bang: Cosmology and String Theory”  (2008) by Maurizio Gasperini.

   

This inexplicable first moment lead eventually to the emergence of life, another inexplicable event.

  

Let me quote Richard David Precht (1964 - ) here, the popular German philosopher:

   

Some philosophers in the early-nineteenth-century Romantic era insisted on regarding man as nature's crowning achievement ,

   

as the creature created to understand the world and to make nature aware of itself. 

  

In reality, of course, there is no reason to believe that man and his actions are the goal of evolution, and indeed even the concept of a 'goal' itself is dubious. 

  

Goals represent a very human approach to thinking (do salamanders have goals?) and are associated with typically human notions of time, as are the terms 'progress' and 'meaning.' 

  

But nature is physical, chemical, and biological, and  'meaning' is on an entirely different plane from, say, the the term 'protein.'

   

Apparently, digging into this cause of why we are here, leaves us rather empty handed for the time being……

   

Thank you … ^_^

   

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

Julian Baggini, What's It All About? Philosophy and the Meaning of Life (2004)  

Richard David Precht, Wer bin ich, und wenn ja, wie viele? (2007)

The Discussion

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not helpful so far

[13:15] CB Axel: I think a salamander's goals would be to stay warm, eat, and procreate.

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and get across the road

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:16] CB Axel: Two out of three of those are my goals, too, come to think of it.

[13:16] herman Bergson: alive :-)

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): without me driving over it

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i usually stop and let them pass but hard to spot

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what is the meaning of the salamanders life?

[13:17] herman Bergson: But these characteristics of an organism, are they called goals?

[13:17] CB Axel: Same as ours, Beertje.

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no salamanders here though where i live

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well staying alive is a goal

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why Gemma?

[13:17] CB Axel: No salamanders? Then it must be easy to avoid them on the road.

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think all creatures want to avoid death

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, but there can be some birds innstead sometimes

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the end

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless something changes their minds

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is death the end?

[13:18] herman Bergson: depends on the definition of goal, I'd say

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is another question!

[13:18] CB Axel: Staying alive might be a goal, but is there meaning in it?

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is going in a circle

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you say that a goal is chosen...that it is a premeditated choice, then salamanders have no goals

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok did we say they were chosen?

[13:20] herman Bergson: They function by the rules organisms function

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): my goal is basically, live, feel good, be with others, do all things i like, these things included

[13:20] herman Bergson: biological principles

[13:20] CB Axel: A salamander my have a choice at any given moment to either eat or have sex. So, they have to pick their goal.

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i see goal is dubious in definition

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear

[13:20] herman Bergson: you sound like a salamander Bejiita ^_^

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loooool

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): do I?

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:21] herman Bergson: I'd say...goals you choose

[13:21] herman Bergson: like you can choose to end your life...

[13:21] CB Axel: But is a salamander happy? That's what separates Bejiita from the salamander. °͜°

[13:22] herman Bergson: a salamander cannot do that

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I hope they can feel happiness too

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: can a crow?

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in some way

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dogs and cats can so why not them?

[13:22] CB Axel: How do we know if a salamander can or cannot choose to ends its life?

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dWw9GLcOeA

[13:22] herman Bergson: BAsed on the principle of avoiding pain and seeking pleasure any organism can feel "happy"

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is the meaning of life ..to be happy?

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:23] CB Axel: Maybe a salamander hit by Bejiita's car has chosen to throw itself under the tires?

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one of the meanings sure is for me

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i say some think so

[13:23] herman Bergson: No Beertje..that is too vague...

[13:23] herman Bergson: I meant "happy" in the sense of a state of biological welbeiing

[13:24] herman Bergson: any organism strives to such a state

[13:24] CB Axel: Watching those crows convinces me that they know how to be happy.

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pff my english..excuses for that

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): crows do

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: me to cb

[13:25] herman Bergson: I think they certainly know to increase their physical wellbeing, CB

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and play

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think we are going to have a lot of definition discussions in the topic

[13:25] herman Bergson: but that doesn’t gives meaning to their existence

[13:25] CB Axel: But isn't physical wellbeing more a goal and not life's meaning?

[13:26] CB Axel: Yes.

[13:26] Starr (lynstarr): i don't think we can find a meaning of life without thinking that we must be part of something greater than us... even the salamanders must be

[13:26] herman Bergson: I'd say that physical wellbeing is just a ffeature of how the system works

[13:26] Starr (lynstarr): idk if i am saying that right

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you are starr

[13:27] CB Axel: I know what you mean, Starr.

[13:27] herman Bergson: We'll certainly will get to that issue Starr

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] CB Axel: But what is that greater thing?

[13:28] herman Bergson: We'll get to that,, CB

[13:28] CB Axel: I have no evidence of a higher being than people wishing for one to give their lives meaning.

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: is meaning connected to evaluation?

[13:29] herman Bergson: My first observation is that what caused us into existence seems to have been a rather random process

[13:29] CB Axel: Yes. Random.

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is...when you take the naturalist point of view as starting point

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: (random from our point of view)

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska....

[13:30] CB Axel: So, according to that book, what did happen before the Big Bang?

[13:30] herman Bergson: as soon as you tend to think in terms of creationism the apparent randomness disappears

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:30] herman Bergson: I am sorry CB.....I just ran into that book title on an Amazon.com page

[13:31] herman Bergson: I found it a funny title....

[13:31] CB Axel: I may have to look at it, too.

[13:31] herman Bergson: I still have trouble with the Big Bang theory.....

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its tricky indeed

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is deduced from the movements of objects in space it seems....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many scientists are not convinced of the big bang

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still looking at other theories

[13:32] herman Bergson: They are said to be moving away from som point.....

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was there really a such explosion and how did it happen, cant be an explosion out of nothing just like that

[13:32] herman Bergson: the expanding universe....

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...

[13:33] herman Bergson: SO this Belgian priest reversed the reasoning....

[13:33] herman Bergson: moving away form something must imply coming from some point....

[13:34] herman Bergson: and there was the big bang , I guess

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are those who think there are millions of universes

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one after the other

[13:34] herman Bergson: Must have been a BANG because all objects in space are moving....

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like bubbels in a pont:)

[13:35] CB Axel: Many, many years ago I read a book called "The First Three Minutes," by Steven Weinberg. It told the story of the origins of the universe, but Weinberg couldn't say what happened right when the Big Bang happened.

[13:35] herman Bergson: So...our very starting point is already such a mystery....

[13:35] CB Axel: Gemman, but how did all those universes start? That's the question.

[13:36] CB Axel: *Gemma

[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): i'm thinking... naturist... evolution... that's the way things go... like it's a process.. idk if that means things began by random accident

[13:36] herman Bergson: Nor could he tell what was happinging BEFORE the big bang, I guess

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the ALICE experiment at LHC try recreate so calle qurk gluon plasma that would had formed right in that moment and i have seen lot of data showing it really being created in that machine

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a state of matter befor all particles formed

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but does that proove the big bang?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Up to now it looks like randomness to me, Starr

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): before the big bang there had to matter

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to be

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it just says that if you smash heavy stuff together you get a very interesting state of matter for me

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed in universe there are much greater forces then we can create even with these machines so

[13:37] CB Axel: Not necessarily, Beertje. There could have been nothing but energy.

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): energy is matter too?

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with all these data the big bang theory just give me more questions

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): energy

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: No idea what energy is...:-)

[13:38] CB Axel: I suppose you could say that, Beertje. Matter is energy and energy is matter.

[13:38] Starr (lynstarr): yeh isn't energy just another form of matter?

[13:39] CB Axel: Or so said Einstein.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one example is if you collide electrons or whatever at high energy they can form muons wich is a more massive type ov electron

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): energy transform into matter

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also te accelerated particles get heavier as they approach light speed

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well we aren't astrophysicists...true....but this very start doesn't give a clue about the meaning of life so far, I'd say

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so far  nope

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe there is no meaning

[13:40] herman Bergson: That was my only point for today ^_^

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we got it then!

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: its a bit like god ;) - so far wie know that fire hurts and comes from the heavens - until we know more ;)

[13:40] herman Bergson: We're not yet done with the project Beertje ^_^

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we hardly started

[13:41] Starr (lynstarr): i say we make up a definition of what the meaning of life means... then we can make whatever answer we want

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then we find out that its not fire but electricity and that it CAN start fire bit is not fire itself

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess its thunderstorms you relate to

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then we learn to harness this power

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the fire as well

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and today we use fire to make electricity

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: @ starr - 42

[13:42] herman Bergson: As I said in a previous lecture....Asking for the meaning of life is not a question of the type that can be answered with a single answer

[13:42] herman Bergson: But indeed...so far it is 42

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true indeed

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes bejiita - its just getting into it deeply and as we go along before we know the details we call it god - or science or whatsoever

[13:43] herman Bergson: unless we find a better answer

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: its a working title production

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes ㋡

[13:43] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: like - we must work with something

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and so far we know a b c

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and if we know aa

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: then we might reconsider to do b a bit different

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and so on

[13:43] herman Bergson: So forgive me if I send you home a bit empty handed today....next time more luck perhaps :-)))

[13:44] Starr (lynstarr): i don't feel empty handed... a lot to think about

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): empty handed??? we have a lot to think about again

[13:44] CB Axel: This has just made me curious about what we'll discuss next. °͜°

[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation :-))

[13:44] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: thank you ehrman - thanx everyone

[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another nice lecture

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu net time ㋡

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje ㋡

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): next

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope so

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska:)

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: and a great day for everyone ㋡

[13:45] CB Axel: See you all Tuesday.

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all:)

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: or night

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: of course

[13:45] Starr (lynstarr): bye... and thanks everyone

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now 

638: About the Meaning of Life....

In the discussion after our first lecture on the new theme Ronjaji suggested, that the question of the meaning of life 

  

could be replaced by the question Who am I and that the answer to that question would imply the answer to our first question.

  

As I said last time, questions can send you into a particular direction. Here is happing the same.

   

The question What is the meaning of life ? suggests somehow, that this meaning is something outside ourselves.

   

This relates to a deeply rooted belief that life has or must have a purpose, a goal. This is called the teleological thinking

   

derived from the Greek word TELOS, which means goal. You find this already in the Ancient Greek philosophies as well as in many religions.

  

The question Who am I ? sends us inside ourselves. This line of thinking you mainly find in asian philosophies.

   

It was introduced in Western thinking, when psychology became an independent science. Nowadays you’ll find plenty of books

   

which explain to you who you are and how this helps to make life a meaningful business.

   

The main problem with the question “What is the meaning of life?” is, that it is in fact a kind of container of a collection of question.

   

Not only does it contain the question Who am I? but also questions like “Why am I?”, “Is this all there is?”

    

“Should I pursue a specific goal in life?”, “Is being happy enough?”, “Am I alone or part of something larger?”

   

Sometimes you get the impression that the meaning of life is some secret, which only is revealed to a special kind of people,

    

or what you only can discover with the use of intense meditation, special food or rituals.. I would name this the Prophet - syndrome.

   

It means, that we won’t find answers by accepting all kinds of beliefs or revelations. We have to use our own common sense here.

    

The only means we have is evidence, logical argumentation, explanations which can be understood and judged by anyone.

   

The diagram behind me may explain somewhat the way we are going to try to find some answers.

    

We have the advantage that we may stand on the shoulders of many thinkers who tried to deal with this question about the meaning of life through the ages.

    

Nevertheless, this journey into the realm of questions can only be a personal one, where you make your own choices.

   

We may start by wondering what life is all about. Why are we here? The question is, however, ambiguous.

    

On the one hand you can look into the past and read “On the Origin of Species” of Darwin, who explains the cause of our existence.

   

However, you also can read in the question a question about our goal, our purpose, our destiny as humans.

   

Sometimes cause and purpose explanations sometimes coincide. The road that was built, was meant to give way to traffic between A and B.

   

But take the apples on a tree, which have been enjoyed by man as food for centuries. 

     

How they are “caused” into existence” doesn’t explain anything about the fact that they have become food for man and animal.

   

Thus we can look at the cause of human life and ask ourselves if it tells something about the meaning of life

   

and we can wonder about a purpose, a final goal of human life and wonder about the question 

   

do this cause and whatever purpose coincide or isn’t there any relation between them….?

    

Thank you…. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks..plz feel free...the floor is yours

[13:21] CB Axel: I guess that's why people who believe in a god are so smug.

[13:21] Ronjaji: I'll just watch for a bit...

[13:22] herman Bergson: Indeed CB

[13:22] CB Axel: God caused them to exist, and he give them a reason to exist: to worship him.

[13:22] Starr (lynstarr): why?

[13:22] herman Bergson: That is how it is indeed...

[13:22] CB Axel: Personally, I find that to be a pretty narcissistic god.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they refuse to believe otherwise

[13:22] herman Bergson: that too is the big difference between theology and philosophy....

[13:23] herman Bergson: Philosophy starts with questions

[13:23] herman Bergson: Theology starts with answers

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:24] herman Bergson: in our search for answers we want real evidence...clear arguments...

[13:24] herman Bergson: not the arguments "I just know it..."

[13:24] CB Axel: Richard Feynman once said, "I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."

[13:24] Starr (lynstarr): i like that

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I agree

[13:25] herman Bergson: Nice one....CB!

[13:25] CB Axel: Well, physicists are smart, aren't they Bejiita? °͜°

[13:25] Ronjaji: Sometimes.... asking a question may be more important than finding an answer.

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow Cb:)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we try to get as much fact out as possible at least with what we have at moment

[13:27] herman Bergson: Well...let's see how far we'll get with this project :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:27] Ronjaji: I mean... don't throw the question away, but more to live it, it sends you on a quest, a desire....

[13:28] herman Bergson: That's why we are here Ronjaji :-)

[13:29] CB Axel: So, Ronjaji, is that our raison d'etre? To just keep questioning and questing?

[13:29] CB Axel: Sounds tiring. I may need a nap. lol

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:29] herman Bergson: a raison d'etre CB?

[13:30] Ronjaji: Ok... let me make a bold statement that the question "who am I", or "what's the meaning of life" can't be answered by facts, philosophy or concepts....

[13:30] CB Axel: A reason for being.

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pourqoi CB?

[13:30] herman Bergson: I only can say that nor facts nor philosophy can answer questions, Ronjaji...only we ourselves can

[13:31] Starr (lynstarr): ok... idk where i am going with this, but the other day someone asked if i smelled something, and i got thinking, like what if we didn't have noses... what if no animal had noses... we would never even know about the sense of smell... so it made me wonder about what else we could possibly not be aware of... then i thought about religion and i wondered if religious people believe what they believe only because they were taught to believe it, or if somewhere along the line, they "sensed" it for themselves

[13:32] herman Bergson: I understood the French CB...I just wanted to question the concept of raison/reason :-)

[13:32] CB Axel: I thought we were looking for the reason for our existance.

[13:33] CB Axel: Starr, I think we'd have to find someone who was never taught about any kind of god and see if they come up with one.

[13:33] Starr (lynstarr): i don't think they would

[13:34] herman Bergson: I think they once discovered a tribe which ha dno gods at all....

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does such a person exist ?

[13:34] CB Axel: But someone did. Once. Long, long ago.

[13:34] Ronjaji: Awareness may be the key indeed, Starr.

[13:34] Starr (lynstarr): but something would have had to point them in that direction

[13:34] CB Axel: I wonder how that godless tribe would answer all our questions here.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergson: I don't see any problem there CB :-)

[13:35] CB Axel: Who do they think they are? Why do they think we're here?

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe they never asked the questions

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they just lived their lives

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: I would bet a nice gatcha gadget of your choice herman that this was a matriarchal one - that tribe without the god ;)

[13:36] Ronjaji: maybe... they didn't need to know.

[13:36] CB Axel: I think maybe ancient humans looked at the beauty of the earth and sky and wondered where we all came from and why we're here. And they decided there must be a god.

[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): nah

[13:36] herman Bergson: Could be Ciska....I once read about it...unfortunately forgot the details

[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): i can't buy that

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no I don't think so CB

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes CB...that is the standard procedure :-))

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: I woulg go with the thesis that god comes from hierarchic thinking

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they had to invent a god first

[13:38] herman Bergson: I'd say a god comes from our animistic phase during early childhood, when we believe that unanimated things live....

[13:38] herman Bergson: as adults we still do in a way ^_^

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: so the line would go: the chief knows best - the chief did not know and something happened so there must be an even better chief who would know better ;)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that seems a likely start of it

[13:38] herman Bergson: we talk to our computer....kick our car when it malfunstions

[13:39] herman Bergson: all kinds of things like that we do

[13:39] Starr (lynstarr): i honestly don't think i ever thought that inanimate things were alive

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha yes a guy at my work swears a long list of curses when solid works refuse to work

[13:39] Ronjaji: Someone said:  "God wanted to play a game, so he put on a body and a mask. But he forgot that it was just a game."

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and bangs the keyboard

[13:39] herman Bergson: it shows tat we still have some tendency to believ ethat inanimated objects have a 'soul'

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bangs

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): throwing tools around

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:40] CB Axel: Nice one, Ronjaji.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Wonder which god that was Ronjaji :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting idea ㋡

[13:42] herman Bergson: Ever seen the list of names of gods that  went by through history?

[13:42] Ronjaji: It was you! ;-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Herman is a god?

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] herman Bergson: Interesting...

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: as kids we experience: there is always someone who knows better - knows answers  - as adults that belief breaks and to keep it up we need someone else we can put that on - hierarchy

[13:42] Ronjaji: Sorry for becoming a bit spiritual here...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: Feel free Ronjaji

[13:43] herman Bergson: You may be right Ciska...:-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: Funnything is that gods are always the punishing guys...

[13:44] herman Bergson: so the ultimate daddy :-)

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: just like cooperations? ;)

[13:44] CB Axel: Ciska, if that's the case, then who's above God?

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: yes - hierarchy

[13:44] Ronjaji: Ciska... so it may be only conditioning and programming that is searching here?

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: well for us humans thats not really important

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: because we cannot reach god

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: so hence the belief

[13:44] herman Bergson: that still is the unanswered question CB....who created god :-)

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: when you look at it from a psychological point of view its just avoiding taking responsibility

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: hierarchy provides some sort of fake security

[13:46] Ronjaji: Indeed, Ciska, but taking responsibility is not always part of the upbringing and conditioning of a person.

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: well how do you teach it?

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: sl is pretty good at bringing this up btw

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: due to the nature of the limits of communication

[13:47] Ronjaji: one has to teach himself by making mistakes ;)

[13:47] herman Bergson: taking responsibility is taught by nature itself...

[13:47] Starr (lynstarr): remember when we first were taught about negative numbers... the first thing i thought is... what?... how can you take 5 away from 4?

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: exact

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: mistake and repeat

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wash rinse repeat ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: confronted with the consequences of your actions you HAVE to make decisions...

[13:48] Ronjaji: I learned so much from my mistakes that I decided to make many more ;-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles at Ronjaji

[13:49] Ronjaji: In the Advaita tradition, the question "who am I" is the main tool of an inquiry....

[13:50] Ronjaji: First, one starts by recognizing what I am not....

[13:50] Ronjaji: i.e. I am not my name.

[13:50] herman Bergson: No one in SL is :-))

[13:50] Ronjaji: LOL

[13:51] Starr (lynstarr): lol

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well I think we have a lot of digging ahead of us.....:-)

[13:51] Ronjaji: once reconized as 100% truth, it can never change again, never become untrue...

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: ronjaji - u know the film "anger management"?

[13:52] Starr (lynstarr): how do you know when you at 100%?

[13:52] herman Bergson: how do you recognize that Ronjaji?

[13:52] Starr (lynstarr): you're at*

[13:53] Ronjaji: well... if you change your name... do you change?

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: by constantly testing it with the reality

[13:53] herman Bergson: You are mixing up categories Ronjaji....

[13:53] herman Bergson: words aren't the same as persons

[13:54] herman Bergson: changing a name is something different form changing a personality

[13:54] CB Axel: I do think that changing a person's name changes the person at least a little.

[13:54] Starr (lynstarr): but if you have to constantly test it, then isn't that knowing that you are not ever at 100%?

[13:54] Ronjaji: and after eliminating all the things that you are not... name, function, age, gender... the next thing is "I am not MY body"...

[13:54] CB Axel: I was thinking that, too, Starr. °͜°

[13:54] herman Bergson: this sound a biyt like Descartes.....

[13:54] CB Axel: But don't all those things add up to make you you?

[13:55] Ronjaji: You don't haver to constantly test that a flame is hot, Starr... you don't even have to remember...

[13:55] herman Bergson: who ended up with saying...I thing so I am

[13:55] Ronjaji: constantly.

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but does this lead to the question..what is the meaning of life?

[13:55] Ronjaji: "I am, thereafter I think..."

[13:56] herman Bergson: you can't come to the conclusion that you are without thinking first

[13:56] herman Bergson: I am is a thought

[13:56] Ronjaji: hmmm...

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: hence meditation ;) - to not think ;) - and practise to just be

[13:57] herman Bergson: WELL beertje.....the meaning of life has become a little obscured indeed in our discussion....:-)

[13:57] Ronjaji: So you are vanished in the silent space in between two thoughts?

[13:57] CB Axel: Yes.

[13:57] CB Axel: lol

[13:57] herman Bergson: here too you are mixing up categories....ronjaji...

[13:58] herman Bergson: you assume that thoughts are spatial objects...:-)

[13:58] Ronjaji: sorryyy.. I'll stick to the diagram.:)

[13:58] herman Bergson: We still have a long way to go....:-)

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as usual:)

[13:59] herman Bergson: Let's do that on Thursday :-)

[13:59] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again :-)

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman :)

[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now this got interesting

[13:59] Ronjaji: Thank you, Herman, for being our host.

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time

[13:59] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] Starr (lynstarr): thank you, teacher... and everyone else too

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman thanx all

[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman & class:-)