Have you ever thought about standing up for the housing of rats? Or to see your loyal dog or cat not only as a pet, but also as a fellow citizen?
Philosophers Sue Donaldson and Will Kymlicka think it's time now to do so. And while you are busy, can you also try to see a pack of deer as a sovereign nation from now on?
Sue Donaldson (born 1962) is a Canadian author and philosopher. She is a research fellow affiliated with the Department of Philosophy at Queen's University,
where she is the co-founder of the Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (APPLE) research cluster.
Her husband and co-author, Will Kymlicka (born 1962) is a Canadian political philosopher best known for his work on multiculturalism and animal ethics.
He is currently Professor of Philosophy and Canada Research Chair in Political Philosophy at Queen's University at Kingston
Maybe you have to get used to this way of thinking about animals, but you can read it all in their book ‘Zoopolis. A Political Theory of Animal Rights’ (2011).
First, ethics focused primarily on the question of how we relate to other animals. Thence it is about questions like: can we lock them up? Can we eat them?
Donaldson and Kymlicka examine the extent to which concepts from political philosophy, such as citizenship and sovereignty, apply to non-human animals.
As humans were aren't an exception, but simply a member of the animal kingdom too. The only thing that makes us different is our consciousness and self-awareness.
But in the basics of life, the experience of pain and pleasure, we are equal to non-human animals.
We regard it as a moral standard, that we ought not to hurt other humans. It is immoral to inflict pain on another human being.
Equally, non-human animals, that can suffer pain, consequentlyhave a moral status too. It is immoral to mistreat animals.
We even have laws for that already, but the emphasis is mainly on the negative rights of animals, on what we aren't allowed to do to animals.
Interesting about Donaldson and Kymlicka is that they add positive rights to them. They distinguish three groups of animals.
In addition to the basic fundamental rights that apply to all animals, each group has its own social rights.
First, there are the domestic animals, farm animals and pets. We must see them as fellow citizens.
We have bred these animals for generations. They depend on us. That is why we have the responsibility to create an environment for them to flourish in.
These animals would therefore, for example, be entitled to health care and a roof over their heads.
To regard non-human animals as fully fledged citizens may sound somewhat utopian? However, we already offer certain police dogs and horses the right to retire and live out their lives.
The second group are the wild animals. They live autonomously and manage their own community. That is why, according to Donaldson and Kymlicka, we must see them as sovereign nations.
People cannot just invade their habitat. Just like we can't do that with the territory of people from another country. This group, for example, has the right to its own territory that we may not pollute or occupy in anyway.
Finally, there is an intermediate category, which Donaldson and Kymlicka call "denizens." These are animals that live close to people but do not share with people.
My guess is that the title is derived from "double environment citizens".
For example pigeons and rats, but also raccoons or wild cats. Among other things, they have the right to live somewhere and not to be stereotyped in a negative way.
So it is not allowed to say that rats are dirty. They are no longer carrying the plague virus. You can keep them out of your house
by cleaning up your mess and plugging all the holes. But if you buy a house and a rat already lives in the garden,
you cannot chase it away. The garden is already his house, that rat has the right to live there.
A large number of people will probably have problems with this approach and far-reaching animal rights.
But within the context of political philosophy the quintessential question is: how can all the different groups, human and non-human animals, live together on this earth?
In a society there is always a dominant group that determines who belongs to the community. The result is often exclusion and injustice, often the fate of non-human animals. Maybe we should change that...
Thank you for your attention.....
Let me add something here....while reading my lecture to you it occurred to me more clearly what this is all about...
It is about the perspective.....
Most laws and rules regarding animals and how to treat them are from the human perspective about what WE ought to do regarding animals...
These two Canadians changed the perspective....
They look from the animal's perspective to discover the rights of animals, what THEY are entitled to and thence our moral obligations with regard to animals...
Thank you for your attention again.....
The Discussion
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I wonder what they do when they have a rat family in the garden
[13:21] herman Bergson: Well I can tell you Beertje....
[13:21] CB Axel: As long as the rat isn't getting into grain or whatever that the people need, what's the problem?
[13:22] Al Michigan: if you find a rats nest in your garden it s best to keep silent about it, because rats will never invade the house(s) around their ''house''/''home''
[13:22] herman Bergson: AT my former place we had a real plague of rats....at times you coulnt count a dozen on the lawn
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we had rats, when I came home in the evening I often saw them near our house...brrr
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): big ones
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well as long they don't eat all the rhubarb
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:23] Al Michigan: i lived in a house, in the upper rooms while downstairs there was a huge rats colony
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes me too ....traces in the snow :-)
[13:23] CB Axel: I wouldn't want them in the house.
[13:23] Al Michigan: they didn t even touch my greengroceries
[13:23] CB Axel: If they don't pay rent, I want them out!
[13:23] oola Neruda: I just read MINDF*CK... and the people who were creating the means of tracking people... of influencing them... and deciding "who should win"... treated third world people even worse than we treat badly treated animals.... they even set off a genocide... .and never looked back
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): chewing on cables, BZZZZZT ooops house burned down!
[13:23] Al Michigan: yes this is the point!!i am thought, there are no rights without plights.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats hopefully rare
[13:24] Al Michigan: no right = no obligation.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well, looks like a war situation....your 'country' is invaded....so you have the right to defend yourself
[13:24] Al Michigan: Bejiita, mouses do that, we speak about rats,... but indeed mice do that
[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: get a cat, then the rats go on lol to neighbors
[13:24] CB Axel: So do squirrels.
[13:25] CB Axel: Squirrels chewed through my internet cable.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm many of these chew on stuff once let out in a room
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:25] Al Michigan: but see, if there was no cat before,.. and you buy the house, you should be forbidden to buy a cat, because the rats rights are older
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): rats however have a very bad reputation being drenched in sewage and trash and carrying that everywhere, a sanitary hazard
[13:25] herman Bergson: That is indeed a situation Al :-)
[13:26] Al Michigan: you have no right to introduce his reich, with his enemy.
[13:26] Al Michigan: you ll fight him with a proxy
[13:26] Al Michigan: that is evil
[13:26] Al Michigan: see Syria
[13:26] herman Bergson: the problem is...you can't negotiate a peace treaty with rats....
[13:27] CB Axel: Take away their food source and they'll leave.
[13:27] herman Bergson: You have to set limits
[13:27] herman Bergson: I think so too CB
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that means no rhubarb :(
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can the rat set limits?
[13:27] herman Bergson: no
[13:27] Al Michigan: indeed beertje
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if rats eat that, I don't know
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I do and the rhubarb is only MINE MINE MINE!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:28] CB Axel: When I was working as a paramedic I got called to a house where a 3 yr. old (human) may have eaten rat poison.
[13:28] CB Axel: The kitchen was filled with dirty pots and pans and boxes with pizza crusts.
[13:28] herman Bergson: That's bad
[13:28] oola Neruda: and there are people who do not have the means to stand up for themselves...to set limits.... the corporations and ultra rich do exactly what they want and don't get in their way
[13:28] herman Bergson: well...clean up your mess and you have no rats
[13:29] CB Axel: I pointed out that if they didn't feed the rats they wouldn't need to set out poison.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): rats live on what we leave around
[13:29] CB Axel: The rats were smart enough to eat the pizza and not the poison. The human child wasn't that smart.
[13:29] Al Michigan: problem is: you are also on the list off eatables, for a rat, young rats for instance when they feel ill or sick, they sneakily get into your bed, or your babies bed, or your kids crib, to lay next to him, in the warmth under the blankets, god knows how they found out, the baby wouldn't mind, but some times the rat will eat your ears or from the side off your belly, the fat, just to heal and feel better.
[13:30] herman Bergson: lol...no horror stories here please, Al ^_^
[13:30] CB Axel: Then plug up hoes in the house that the rats use to gain entry.
[13:30] oola Neruda: have you ever used live traps with mice?
[13:31] CB Axel: If they're not going to pay rent they have no right to live in the house.
[13:31] Al Michigan: it is true Herman
[13:31] Al Michigan: it s no fun
[13:31] herman Bergson: But yet...seen from the position of the animal...can you formulate animal rights ?
[13:31] herman Bergson: For instance the right to have a roof to live under, when it is about a domesticated animal
[13:32] Al Michigan: yes i can, but that would be child rights because ONLY CHILDREN have rights, where they do not need to give something back in return
[13:32] herman Bergson: comparable with the position of animals
[13:32] Al Michigan: yes
[13:33] Al Michigan: so would you let a kid live outside on the streets
[13:33] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i pay the house, not the rat. So i am the boss. with a cat :-) ....... and if in the cellar the previous owner of the house sits, i will ask him also to go
[13:33] Al Michigan: so a horse need a stable, period
[13:33] herman Bergson: I guess we accept rights for our pets (children:-)
[13:33] oola Neruda: maybe the question is too narrow.... for we need many of our animals for many different reasons.... cats catch mice... bees pollinate... dogs can be servcice dogs...horses used to pull plows and wagons... etc etc. etc.... maybe the question needs to be rethought
[13:34] Al Michigan: bue need all the other animals as well
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have bugs rights?
[13:34] CB Axel: Children have the right to a roof over their heads, 3 meals a day, no physical or emotional abuse, and an education. Except for the education, animals should have the right to obtain those things for themselves.
[13:34] Al Michigan: a bug is no animal.
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): mosquito?
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bug = code error
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): mug:)
[13:34] Al Michigan: why would an animal not have the right for education???
[13:34] herman Bergson: I'd say that is an animal
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im good at writing these
[13:35] oola Neruda: the work for us
[13:35] CB Axel: Spiders have no rights! LOL
[13:35] herman Bergson: It was a real bug that caused the first computer malfunction
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i mean a 'mug'
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they are called bugs because the first byg was well a bug in an old relay based computer
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...
[13:36] herman Bergson: a bug is an insect, Beertje...you are correct
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so an animal too
[13:36] oola Neruda: when you study "bugs" you find that we truly need many of them just for our planet
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are part of the ecosystem too
[13:36] Al Michigan: so here is my definition off an animal: an animal is a living thing with lefs and all, it is a mammal or it lays eggs, but it is not a bug or a fish, and secondly will save another species from evil or hurt if it sees and other animal,(bird, tiger human) in need, and help to get to save grounds, or will help against a predator.
[13:36] CB Axel: Companion animals need to be educated, too, but so do the humans who bring animals into their environment. :)
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes, but it is also related to the measure of pain and pleasure they can experience...
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and a virus?
[13:37] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): has that rights too?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): viruses are "buggy code" without a host
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not alive
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just a strand of harmful DNA in a shell
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bacteria are alive however
[13:38] Al Michigan: it will not help me with a predator, so it is no animal in my book
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do they have rights?
[13:38] Al Michigan: a virus? BNO
[13:38] Al Michigan: NO
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bacteria? now ur on the really low level hre
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:39] herman Bergson: The issue of rights is related to the level of pain and pleasure an organism can experience....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bacteria can probably not feel, its a single cell organism
[13:39] herman Bergson: Without a nervous system that may be questionable
[13:39] Al Michigan: swell, i sqw a lot off ppl not able to feel those things, are they not allowed to have rights?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if you behave like shit u have no rights id say
[13:40] Al Michigan: also, everything has feelings and pain. also bacteria
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): treat others as you want to be treated is an old sayig
[13:40] herman Bergson: the malfunctioning organism isn't setting the standards
[13:40] CB Axel: If you have a predator, say a tiger, living near your house, you could use a virus the tiger is susceptible to to incapacitate the tiger and therefore protect you.
[13:40] CB Axel: Does that make the virus a domesticated animal?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): AAAAAAATTTTCHHHHHOOO!
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sniff hopefully, not sniff!
[13:41] Al Michigan: no axil, that is a proxy war.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): damn don't wanna get a cold
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): viruses do that so I don't want them in here
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and not in my computer either
[13:41] oola Neruda: if you study ecology, you find that the strangest of creatures have a role to play in our lives.... and have for eons... not just centuries...but eons.... remove some "layer" in an eco chain and you soon find out why they are there
[13:41] CB Axel: Don't worry, Bejiita. The virus that makes the tiger ill probably won't affect you.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least im ok for now
[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed oola
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but many at work are having colds now
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its that time of year
[13:42] CB Axel: And plants respond to being cut down and even respond to plants nearby being harmed. If a pain response makes an animal worthy of rights, then what about plants?
[13:42] herman Bergson: We can conclude at least one important thing here......
[13:43] Al Michigan: indeed cb!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa I heard something about that well plants are a living thing too
[13:43] herman Bergson: A century ago a discussion like this never would have taken place
[13:43] Al Michigan: not even do they feel, they also communicate by contacts with fungi
[13:44] herman Bergson: We can't answer all questions here....so that may be your homework for today :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I saw some movie "the happening" where the plants revilted against humanity by releasing poison gas
[13:45] Al Michigan: not totally unlikely
[13:45] CB Axel: I've seen that movie, too. Interesting.
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we release poison gas by riding in our cars
[13:45] herman Bergson: Plants have strategies to survive and adapt
[13:45] oola Neruda: in china... the farmers were upset because the birds were eatting in their fields.... they created a day when EVERYONE went out and they kept all birds from landng... as well as killed as many as they could.... the next year.... the insects ate the plants much worse than the birds ever did
[13:45] Al Michigan: i think the animal thing is better seen if you consider all off them as decendends from men
[13:46] Al Michigan: that there man first, and then out off their loins came all the life.
[13:46] CB Axel: So, for homework we should try to interview as many rats and plants as we can?
[13:46] Al Michigan: then you ll see how all animals are related to us.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Good plan CB :-))
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe
[13:46] CB Axel: I'd say we came from the animals not the other way around.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we did
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my parrot would sya..."flikker toch op !"
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we came from apes
[13:46] herman Bergson: People also talk to their dogs and cats
[13:47] Al Michigan: it s not important i is not really like that(i assume) butit will show animals thought to be like our kin , and not different with no emotions or pain.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:47] herman Bergson: That is what gives them rights, Al
[13:47] Al Michigan: lots off ppl now start to l realise that we descend from pigs.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): my neighbors have a little dog that loves me
[13:47] Al Michigan: but that s just biology, what do they know
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gets so happy and exited when seeing me
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:48] CB Axel: Al, some haven't evolved far from the pigs.
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have a connection for sure
[13:48] herman Bergson: It is time to send you home to talk to your pets and plants :-))
[13:48] CB Axel: Also, in addition to not paying rent, animals don't pay taxes, so they shouldn't be using our roads and sewers and such.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or trash bins
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: Good point CB :-)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well time for me to jump to another event
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:49] Al Michigan: but take the test, grab a knife and open up a human, what do you smell? then grab a pig, you ll realize it s the same smell and you l see the same content if you next open your neighbours body
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] CB Axel: Although, some political campaigns seem to have rats and pigs contributing to them.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Discuss this with your local politician :-))
[13:49] CB Axel: OK. What day is it today?
[13:49] CB Axel: Tuesday?
[13:49] Al Michigan: policians are a different race indeed, they are related to rats.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:50] herman Bergson: Unless you have that question you yet have to ask, I'd like to thank you for the discussion again :-)
[13:50] CB Axel: Good. I'll see you all Thursday then.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa cu next time
[13:50] CB Axel: Bye, everyone. :)
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all again.....
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
