496: What about the East?

It is generally recognized that Confucian orthodoxy, which came to dominance in the Han dynasty (206 B.C.F.-220 C.E.)., is a river that over time was fed by three powerful streams: Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. 

A typical Chinese, even into the modem period, might be heard to say, "With respect to family and society, I am Confucian; 

with respect to Nature I am Taoist; and with respect to things beyond the world of Nature and society, I am Buddhist"

The stress here is on the harmony of the three traditions. There is no suggestion that one separates family from nature or from "things apart from nature." 

Though Confucianism remains dominant, the three sensibilities provide distinct foci in accordance with which one can construe one's life.

Contemporary China is still a ritually constituted society without grounding in the objective principles associated with reason or natural law, 

its order defined by the exemplars of its tradition, according to Hall and Ames, whom I referred to in the previous lecture.

We insist on the universality of certain values, laws of nature and principles. When we claim that Chinese are subjugated to those same universality, Hall and Ames, call this ethnocentrism.

But physics and other sciences are not just cultural contingencies. Therefore I think, they make it too easy here for themselves.

Individualism, so characteristic for the West, is regarded as selfishness in Chines culture, which remains grounded in filiality and the model of the family that cultivates filial dependency.

Technology is not just a consequence of Western culture. It is also a logical consequence of our scientific insights regarding the world we live in.

Theoretically you could ignore this phenomenon, because it doesn't fit into your own culture. But reality shows that this is not possible and thus technology is a serious threat to China.

Maybe you recall, what I quoted from a newspaper article in lecture 492: "China has lost its soul and to regain it traditional religions should get more space. Chinese President Xi Jinping would behind the scenes advocate this. 

Xi is worried about the decades of moral decline of the Chinese society, under the influence of the booming Chinese economy.

The rapid economic progress in China is associated with an obsession for a lot of money and material prosperity. 

President Xi Jinping hopes that Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism could offer the Chinese people moral benchmarks again."

That was recently, so in 2013. The article of Hall and Ames was written 10 years ago! And they then concluded:

"Asking the Chinese to recognize that they have inalienable rights is to ask them to become, per impossibile, beings with essences or natures. 

Wishing for increased autonomy and freedom for the Chinese people, along with access to the technologies and economic institutions that make for the Western standard of living, is to condemn the Chinese order to dissolution. 

And, after the deluge, there is little hope that any alternative order could be put in its place. There is good reason to believe that the Chinese intellectual, social, and political orders are in crisis."

This leaves us with an interesting picture of China today and many questions about its future.

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you..:-))

[13:19] Gemma Allen: wow

[13:19] Nectanebus applauds

[13:19] Nectanebus: Quite the depressing tone on this one, it seems...

[13:19] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:19] Gemma Allen: in a way

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: mind boggling

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:19] herman Bergson: Ye sin deed Nectanebus....

[13:19] Gemma Allen: well

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: About Xi Jinping, he sounds a lot like the Popes who've been warning for decades that Europe is losing its sense of identity due to secularization and marginalization of traditional Christianity.

[13:20] herman Bergson: But interesting is that this depressing tone was set 10 years ago

[13:20] Abinoam Nørgaard: It's not just China that is undergoing transformation, it's Europe as well

[13:20] xtc yonimyxtc: gee, i missed all those warnings

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: as i get this Chinese culture and modern technology don't mix

[13:20] ἀρετή: ten years...

[13:20] herman Bergson: Interesting point Abinoam :-))

[13:20] Gemma Allen: well some people can see the results of history

[13:21] Nectanebus: Yeah, everywhere's worried about the decline of moralism vis-a-vis consumerism

[13:21] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:21] Gemma Allen: always have been

[13:21] herman Bergson: Our big mistake is that we created a money world...

[13:22] herman Bergson: our science and technology are used to make money....

[13:22] herman Bergson: on every fart a patent claim

[13:22] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ahah

[13:23] herman Bergson: and then our eternal growth of the economy....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: well thats true

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and with money comes greed

[13:23] Gemma Allen: is true tho some of the original creators of tech were hoping for it to better life for mankind

[13:23] herman Bergson: the point is that the Chinese never organized their society in that way.....

[13:23] Gemma Allen: the money people got hold

[13:23] Nectanebus: Ah, but a Technocracy is quite the opposite to a Consumerist society.

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: the thing is if we do something we always want something back, thats why we have money

[13:24] Nectanebus: And perhaps the problem here is the disinclination of various philosophies of the world to assimilate the questions and meanings of technology into their ponderings...

[13:24] Nectanebus: technology*

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be the way most people wirk

[13:24] herman Bergson: that is the point nectanebus.....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: tit for tat so to say, nothing for free

[13:24] Gemma Allen: well most did not because it was nto there

[13:25] herman Bergson: Islam is an example of anti technological attitude....

[13:25] Nectanebus: certainly

[13:25] herman Bergson: and emancipation of the individual

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:25] herman Bergson: Shoot a twelve year old girl because she goes to school...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: they go backwards in time instead of forward

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: and start lot of wars

[13:26] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:26] Gemma Allen: it is a shame

[13:26] Corronach: on that note, happy Eid

[13:26] Gemma Allen: but

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: look what's happening in mid east now

[13:26] herman Bergson: But like the problems in China this is a reaction to what is forced upon us by Western culture....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: so tragic

[13:26] Gemma Allen: those are radicals

[13:26] herman Bergson: But contrary to HAll and Ames, I dont think you can call it ethnocentrism

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: indeed but start to get out of control

[13:27] Gemma Allen: some islamic countries have much more liberal views of women

[13:27] Nectanebus: A bit of radicalism amongst the change can be healthy as an anchor to a populace during times of flux.

[13:27] Gemma Allen: Turkey for example

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:27] herman Bergson: I doubt that Gemma...

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes thats true

[13:27] herman Bergson: also Turkey is moving backwards....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: at least my experience

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: compared to other places

[13:28] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:28] Gemma Allen: compared

[13:28] Nectanebus doesn't pay much heed to Turkish affairs

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: also turkey is one of few places u can visit in mid east that is not a war zone

[13:28] Gemma Allen: hope not

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: been there done that

[13:28] Gemma Allen: it was a model

[13:28] herman Bergson: true....but islamic opposition is growing in Turkey too again

[13:28] Gemma Allen: oh dear

[13:29] Gemma Allen: that is a shame

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: oow

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: Maybe the problem of today is...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: loved the place when i was there and want to go back someday soon, lot of my friends have been there before now recently too

[13:30] herman Bergson: that whatever culture you have....you have to face the reality of natural sciences anr its consequences....

[13:30] herman Bergson: take the mobile phone...

[13:30] herman Bergson: you can not call it just  a product of our culture...

[13:30] herman Bergson: as a mere contingency

[13:31] Nectanebus: True, but I don't think science is likely to interfere with cultural pursuits overmuch, even in a religious sense, unless we're talking true regressionist thought, which isn't as prominent as medias make us think...#

[13:31] herman Bergson: or do all prefer communications with drums still :-)

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:31] Abinoam Nørgaard: i do lol

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:31] Abinoam Nørgaard: hate the damn mobiles

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] herman Bergson: Guess you are a musician Abinoam :-))

[13:32] ἀρετή: music moves the world

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: i think modern smart phones are really practical things, the prob is nowadays everyone stare into those instead of socialising with each other

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: the asocial society

[13:33] herman Bergson: Maybe bejiita....

[13:33] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'm not, i just not a big fan of this idea of 24/7 availability that mobiles have introduced more than anything else. sure, you can turn it off, but everybody expects you to be available non-stop

[13:33] Nectanebus: Truth, Abi

[13:33] Nectanebus: If I'm not on work time, I refuse to have my mobile with me

[13:33] herman Bergson: indeed Abinoam

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: seen that on several occasions, people next to each other and all just stare down silently into their devices

[13:33] Nectanebus: Triangulation? no thanks

[13:33] ἀρετή: that's when you use technology to learn to meditate and reach out to learn about the essences and nature of people

[13:33] Abinoam Nørgaard: exactly

[13:34] herman Bergson: well anyway...when you look at Chinese philosophy today

[13:34] Nectanebus: And yeah, I think one thing Chaotes have ahead of other philosophies is occult use of technology as a matter of course

[13:34] herman Bergson: there is a serious struggle going on, I guess

[13:34] Nectanebus: Kinda of touches on what we mentioned a while ago about cities being ntural et cetera

[13:34] Nectanebus: natural*

[13:35] Abinoam Nørgaard: i missed that one

[13:35] herman Bergson: At least, I hope, you have some idea about Chinese philosophy today

[13:36] Abinoam Nørgaard: yes, thank you for the lecture!

[13:36] Corronach: Thank you herman

[13:36] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:36] herman Bergson: We'll leave the Chinese as such behind and focus our attention on one of the influences on Chinese philosophy....buddhism

[13:36] Nectanebus: Ending early today?

[13:36] Gemma Allen: wil be interesting to watch

[[13:37] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] Gemma Allen: and keep in mind while watching china

[13:37] herman Bergson: Not in particular nectanebus

[13:37] herman Bergson: but what else is there to say about the future of China ...:-)

[13:37] Qwark Allen: the next super power

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is my idea too Gemma....

[13:37] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:37] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:37] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:37] ἀρετή: it's kinda scary

[13:38] herman Bergson: And that is the question Qwark...

[13:38] Nectanebus: Until the aging population swipes it from under them

[13:38] Gemma Allen: well thinking back to the demise of the soviet union

[13:38] Abinoam Nørgaard: indeed

[13:38] herman Bergson: Due to their philosophical background, some doubt that they can make it as a superpower

[13:38] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'm doubtful myself

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: they don't know how to handle our stuff, will collapse

[13:39] Qwark Allen: start looking at the economy, etc

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...their confucian idea of society as a family....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: start looking international trade, and who owns what

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: you cant handle modern technology without understanding the science behind for ex, to get all pieces together

[13:39] Abinoam Nørgaard: corruption in china and lack of political freedoms are some of the things that will prevent them from becoming a true super power.

[13:40] Qwark Allen: ehehhe

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: all pieces of the puzzle must be there

[13:40] Gemma Allen: that may be very true

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Abinoam...things like that

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Qwark Allen: their system its a bit strange to our culture, but they have science behind them

[13:40] Nectanebus: how does lack of political freedom stop one becoming a superpower? I thought a dictatorship might be preferable from a cold-blooded standpoint...

[13:40] Abinoam Nørgaard: in short term yes

[13:41] Abinoam Nørgaard: but no dictatorship has held on for long

[13:41] Qwark Allen: they have a satilite in mars, a space station in orbit also

[13:41] herman Bergson: But science as a product derived from foreigners Qwark

[13:41] Qwark Allen: the 3rd launched

[13:41] Nectanebus: Interesting point, Herman

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:41] Qwark Allen: not really

[13:41] Qwark Allen: we can say the USA have foreigners making their science moving foward

[13:41] Qwark Allen: but not china

[13:41] herman Bergson: all cultures try to integrate science .....but it still is a product of Western thinking...

[13:42] Gemma Allen: taken from others tech

[13:42] Qwark Allen: mmmm

[13:42] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:42] herman Bergson: individualism is a source of creativity.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: an attitude unknown in japan....

[13:42] Qwark Allen: check how many foreigners were employed for china to make their space station

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: china assimilates what they get from outside copying it well but unclear if they have the understanding how it really works

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: like we do

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: some do maybe, and some dont

[13:42] herman Bergson: therefore Japan was a long time a good copier of western products...

[13:43] Gemma Allen: a very good copier :-)

[13:43] Qwark Allen: japan is a pioneer for sure in electronics

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Gemma  they were able to improve the copies...not to invent new things

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but japan understand the science behind the things as well

[13:43] Qwark Allen: like china

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes today ...

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: its a real high tech place 10 hears ahead of the rest of the world

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: years

[13:44] Qwark Allen: make no mistake, anyone that makes and runs a space station, knows what is doing

[13:44] Nectanebus: Because Buddhism itself isn't a very "religious" viewpoint, and Shinto, well....kinda odd to explain.

[13:44] Nectanebus: But these things aren't as cloying as a Daoist view of technology

[13:44] Nectanebus: Where's the Ki in electricity?

[13:45] Nectanebus: Makes sense to Westerners, but not the Chinese...and odd thing...

[13:45] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think you're giving too much credit to religion there. it's like saying that we would have no space science without teachings of jesus

[13:45] Nectanebus: I mean as to how the "religions" themselves view technologies

[13:45] ἀρετή: I thought there are more Christians in China.

[13:45] Nectanebus: Not as to how much hold thy have o'er the populace

[13:46] Abinoam Nørgaard: sure, but in general, i think one can be a devout buddhist or a taoist and a perfectly good scientist

[13:46] Abinoam Nørgaard: at the same time

[13:46] herman Bergson: Historically since and technology could develop in europe because it freed itself from religious constraints

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Qwark Allen: At one end, some Bible organizations claim that there are as many as 200 million Christians in China already, not without the hope of encouraging continued flow of support for their many programs for aiding the Christians in China.

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: the church held back technology development for maybe 100s of years

[13:47] herman Bergson: On the other hand Aninoam, some research seem to show that about 3% of eurpean scientists like to call themselves christians

[13:47] Qwark Allen: heeheheh i would say at least 1000 bej

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: maybe in the area of astronomy, but it aided medical research and humanities, among others

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: we could have come much further then we have done if it werent for that

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: in some ways

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: thats sad

[13:47] Qwark Allen: yep

[13:48] Qwark Allen: one the reasons i don`t like them

[13:48] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:48] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:48] Qwark Allen: why*

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: angles and demons show that clearly

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: religion against particle physics

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: i wouldn't take my history out of that book lol

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: maybe not

[13:49] Qwark Allen: what is the perspective of china religion, of technology?

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: but shows a part of the idea

[13:49] herman Bergson: There was an article in my newspaper yesterday about religiosity....

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: yes, i see what you mean

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: that religion and scientific development oppose each other

[13:49] Qwark Allen: :-/

[13:49] herman Bergson: and why it is healthy for people to be religious...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: basically science what time to go forward, religion backwards

[13:50] Nectanebus: I think there's a lot of supposition all of a sudden

[13:50] Qwark Allen: i see the point there! the more dumb is the collective, more easy is the collective to buy cheap religiosity

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: many islamic places live like it was middle ages now

[13:50] Qwark Allen: look at the cargo cult in polinesia

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: goes back in time

[13:50] Qwark Allen: for me was a eye opener, this cargo cult

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:50] ἀρετή: unless it's Dubai

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: wicker man analogy

[13:50] Abinoam Nørgaard: hehe, yes arete

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes dubai is a different story

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:51] herman Bergson: Maybe I could dedicate a lecture to the phenomenon of religiosity before starting with buddism :-)

[13:51] Qwark Allen: check Abu Dabi

[13:51] Qwark Allen: more sci fi then Dubai

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i want to go play golf there

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Qwark Allen: hehehe

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: and Belek too

[13:51] Abinoam Nørgaard: we can't generalize entire religions like that. clearly there are lots of differences about how islam is expressed and practiced in different places. just like christianity is.

[13:52] herman Bergson: true Abinoam...

[13:52] herman Bergson: but I want to take it one step back.....

[13:52] ἀρετή: Thanks, Qwark, would look it up.

[13:52] herman Bergson: where does religiosity come from?

[13:52] Qwark Allen: maybe in general we can say that religion go out, when technology goes in

[13:52] herman Bergson: and how to deal with it

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: indeed, there are differences but the general direction goes in a certain way in general it seems for many places

[13:53] ἀρετή: maybe it's how people perceive religion

[13:53] Nectanebus: Chickens and eggs, I think, Herman

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: its tricky

[13:53] ἀρετή: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070222155706.htm

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: complicated subject

[13:53] Nectanebus: And I don't think it's as simple as coming to a final solution on the religious question

[13:53] herman Bergson: no Nectanebus, I wouldn't say that...

[13:53] Qwark Allen: and the reason comes from more educated people, question more religion points of view

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nope

[13:54] Abinoam Nørgaard: i don't have a problem with religiosity as such. there doesn't seem to be a single human community without it. it's how it manifests and whether it is a force for good or evil that i'm concerned about

[13:54] herman Bergson: ok...I'll throw some oil on this fire inthe enxt lecture :-))

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ehehhe

[13:54] Gemma Allen: thursday?

[13:54] Nectanebus: Chickens and eggs, then, as far as "where it came from"

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes...Thursday...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: religion in itself can be good but its often misinterpreted and then used in the totally wrong way

[13:54] Gemma Allen: i think i can make it

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: for power and to oppress

[13:54] Qwark Allen: Chinese eggs from japan chickens?

[13:54] herman Bergson: I agree with Abinoam :-)

[13:54] Nectanebus: I'll be working as usual, but I should make this time next week :)

[13:54] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:55] Corronach: i'll probably be here

[13:55] Gemma Allen: opposite of me

[13:55] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:55] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:55] herman Bergson: ok....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:55] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:55] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:55] Gemma Allen: next week the burn2 is on all week

[13:55] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:55] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol

[13:55] Gemma Allen: i will be rangering

[13:55] Qwark Allen: i play at the opening

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:55] herman Bergson: before we move on to buddhism and so on we first take a stand on religiosity from a philosophers point of view

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hope not too laggy

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'll come wearing a fire-proof suit

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: looking forward to burn

[13:56] Nectanebus: heheh

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:56] Qwark Allen: ahhaah will be for sure the first hours

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: i come with my flame thrower then

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:56] ἀρετή: I'll come and take pics then

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: hahaha

[13:56] Gemma Allen: ah bood

[13:56] Gemma Allen: good

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: when we try set each other on fire

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:56] Gemma Allen: the builds are very good

[13:56] Abinoam Nørgaard: sounds like fun

[13:56] Gemma Allen: lots os them

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: loves this event

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: its so nice

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: this and SLB events

[13:57] herman Bergson: Before you do all that I kindly would point at the rules of engagement here as described behind me :-))

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: are the best

[13:57] Abinoam Nørgaard smiles

[13:57] Qwark Allen: indeed m8

[13:57] Nectanebus: Anywho, later on everyone

[13:57] Corronach: thanks herman

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon

[13:57] Abinoam Nørgaard: bye everyone, i'll be off too

[13:57] Abinoam Nørgaard: take care

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:57] Nectanebus: Fare thee well

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ty

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**  **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:57] herman Bergson: ok...thank you all again for your participation :-)

[13:57] Gemma Allen: where

[13:57] Qwark Allen: hope i can some thursday to

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: this was some stuff to think about indeed

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:58] ἀρετή: Thank you

[13:58] Qwark Allen: need to go get some food before sleep

[13:58] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:58] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:58] Gemma Allen: ye

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] xtc yonimyxtc: thank you, professor bergson

[13:58] Gemma Allen: and look up

[13:58] herman Bergson: And keep your eye open on China

[13:58] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:58] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:58] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: i will

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] herman Bergson: thnx Gemma

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: nee to check some stuff up

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: about this

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡

[13:59] ἀρετή: have a good day

[13:59] herman Bergson: Some discussion !

495: An East - West confrontation

In the lectures on Chinese philosophy I have pointed at a number of typical Chinese features, for which there hardly is a counterpart in Western philosophy.

Chinese culture still is  dominated by the long lasting Confucian tradition. Our metaphysical concepts can not be applied in translations of Chinese metaphysics.

The concept of democracy, as we see it, is in fact not available in Chinese thinking and China will have great difficulty integrating our individualistic consumerism in its social system.

But I have said too, that Chinese like we have the same instrument to deal with life: the brain. And I assume, that, biologically, it is the same in all human beings, but the way we use it in our interaction with our environment is different. And that results in different cultures.

But now take this. The point of view of David Hall and Roger Amos in "From Africa to Zen" (2003). They say. that "….WE believe in the ideals that emerged from the French Revolution 

and have found their specific instantiation in documents such as the American Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. 

These ideals we hold to be the guarantees of our individual autonomy, our liberal democracy, and our science and technology - all of which we believe to be the necessary vehicles of progress for all countries and peoples around the world.

We in the scientific, liberal democratic West must recognize that our tendencies toward universalism and the acceptance of objective ideas and values merely advertise the content of our own cultural sensibility. 

The West has masked its ethnocentrism by the claim that its self-understanding has universal applicability. One paradoxical element of our peculiar form of ethnocentricity is the rejection of ethnocentrism. 

 [ Ethnocentrism = the tendency to believe that one's ethnic or cultural group is centrally important, and that all other groups are measured in relation to one's own. ] 

But we do not escape provincialism simply because we make naive claims to objectivity and universality.

The comparison of Chinese and Western cultures is, therefore, the comparison of two sets of ethnocentric beliefs. 

Most of us who occupy a privileged place in a Western democracy consider ourselves autonomous individuals, possessing natural rights, with a faith in our ability to search out the truth of things for ourselves, generally confident that reason and goodwill can solve most of our problems. 

We are respectful of governmental authority when it serves to nurture freedom and autonomy for its citizens, but are perfectly capable of becoming an adversary of the government if it threatens those same values. 

We identify ourselves with ideas, values, and principles that we believe are reasonable and employ our religious, scientific, or political institutions as instruments for the implementation of those ideas and values. 

We deplore censorship and believe that free and open enquiry will result in consensus upon what is true about the need and desires of the majority of human beings.

Among our intellectual elites there is doubtless a great deal less naive assent to these beliefs, but the trust in objectivity lingers. 

The visions of natural and social scientists, and of philosophers too, still reflect the belief that there is an objective order to things and that the discovery of this order requires the responsible application of the methods of logic and science.

This faith extends for many of us into the idea that human beings have objective natures, identifiable characteristics that make us essentially the same from one society or culture to another.""

So far Hall and Amos and I thought….wow. IS this our biggest mistake here indeed…..to believe that, when all is said and done, being human has to mean being pretty much as we are ???????

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

[13:19] herman Bergson: Take your time to digest this argumentation....

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: yes wow

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: just to back to something, did you imply that universalism is in fact the negation of universalism? was that the paradox?

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: go* back

[13:20] herman Bergson: no no....

[13:20] Abinoam Nørgaard: oh good

[13:20] herman Bergson: with universalism is meant the idea that there exist universal laws or maybe even universal concepts

[13:20] Abinoam Nørgaard: right

[13:21] Dagg: is that something that leads us to Plato by chance ?

[13:21] Abinoam Nørgaard: but to universalize is to impose one version of what those laws or concepts might be, no?

[13:21] herman Bergson: But the question here is.... Are Hall and Amos right?

[13:22] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think they are generalizing a great deal

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:22] herman Bergson: That question would lead to a metaphysical debate on the status of universlas , I am affraid, Abi...

[13:23] Abinoam Nørgaard: hehe yes, i know, let's not go there

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes indeed they are....:-)

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:23] herman Bergson: The first time I read it, I thought...oh wow...good point....

[13:23] herman Bergson: But after a few minutes I thought..oh wow...totally wrong :-)

[13:24] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol yes

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:24] herman Bergson: SO what could be questionable here?

[13:25] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think i can hear the crickets... lol

[13:25] Dagg: I think it would be important to understand what is previous to those ideals, where do they come from

[13:25] herman Bergson: Now about this statement: "the acceptance of objective ideas and values merely advertise the content of our own cultural sensibility. "

[13:26] herman Bergson: Exactly that aspect I have no problems with Daggash....

[13:26] herman Bergson: that may be cultural sensibilities :-)

[13:27] Dagg: or... they could be part of an evolutionary process

[13:27] herman Bergson: But what is said here is that we, the West, feel superior to the rest of the world....

[13:27] herman Bergson: and that for centuries the Chinese have the same attitude :-)

[13:28] Dagg: yes indeed

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ok well that can be true

[13:28] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:28] herman Bergson: so "two sets of ethnocentric beliefs"

[13:28] Corronach: i think it is true.

[13:28] Corronach: and i think neither are superior.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: everyone thinks their own system is the best so to say

[13:28] Corronach: the difficulty is exactly as you have described it...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: compared to others

[13:29] Corronach: people will view others through the lens of their own beliefs, attitudes, values, experiences etc

[13:29] herman Bergson: But there is one weak point in this argumentation....

[13:30] herman Bergson: It is claimed that science is in fact just a cultural sensibility....just like Chinese ideas on reality are....

[13:30] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:30] herman Bergson: so science is part of our ethnocentric attitude....

[13:30] herman Bergson: and that is in my opinion plainly untrue...

[13:31] herman Bergson: It is claimed that "being human has to mean being pretty much as we are"....with the emphasis on WE Westerners....

[13:31] Mikki Louise: I am not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion, but it seems to fit, somehow.... I have a friend, posted on facebook yesterday... she had an app for her phone, for photography. She thought it was for different effects in your snapshots.. and discovered it is meant for asian girls.. it modifies their picture to look more 'western'... bigger eyes, pinker skin tone, etc.

[13:31] Corronach: perhaps it is looking at "science" as a way of viewing things. do the Chinese have another way of viewing things that comes to the same conclusion as "science"?

[13:32] Corronach: (sorry i know i'm speaking in riddles now)

[13:32] herman Bergson: And that is the question Corronach....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: there are two matters here....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: sciense is our way to understand nature but the Chinese might see it in another way, i don't know

[13:33] herman Bergson: Culture ...Mikki refers to that and science

[13:33] herman Bergson: Is physics, einstein's relativity theory, chemistry, biochemistry...is that just a cultural sensibility?

[13:33] Corronach: here's a basic example of what i mean. let's say someone says "god did [whatever]" and a westerner says "no, science did [whatever]". does it really matter, since [whatever] was done?

[13:33] Mikki Louise: my friend felt strongly that the app is racist... yet it is developed by asians, for asians. so, is it racist.. and why do they aspire to look western?

[13:34] Dagg: herman .. what do you mean by culture, do you say its a sort of conditioning ?

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: our culture might embrace science more maybe bur science itself is not a culture

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: but

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is what I am thinking too Bejiita...

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] herman Bergson: and Dagg...what is culture....

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is the way how we look at our environment and interact with it

[13:35] herman Bergson: but regarding this looking at our environment....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: culture is what we create and the way we do that in

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: i d say

[13:36] herman Bergson: if it is about a religious of metaphysical view...we may differ completely in interpretation and ensuing interaction....

[13:36] herman Bergson: But if it is about sending a rocket to the moon....

[13:36] herman Bergson: the americans do exactly the same as the Chinese....

[13:37] herman Bergson: the mathematics for such an operation are independent of any culture...or said differently..

[13:37] herman Bergson: applicable in all cultures

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: they learn from each other i guess

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: what is needed to send a rocket in space

[13:38] Mikki Louise: it's not how but why send the rocket

[13:38] herman Bergson: Sure...western mathematicians invented the math....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: at least they've got the concept from there since us and russia have done it befopre

[13:38] Mikki Louise: different forms of imperialism, different motives to demonstrate supremacy

[13:38] Abinoam Nørgaard: i think the east/west dichotomy is to an extent entirely artificial. speaking of mathematics, we used arabic numerals, than originated in india. so what makes the basis of "western" mathematics western?

[13:39] herman Bergson: but in old India they already knew about this mathematics...like the Arab mathematicians in 1100 A.D did too

[13:39] Dagg: alright..so can we say that the way we look at our environment is the part that create division between the cultures even in our global world, right ?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes I think you could say that, Dagg.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: or even one step further....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa that seems indeed logical

[13:40] herman Bergson: the dominating religion in a given area on earth decided how we developed

[13:40] Dagg: yes we fight wars for those things

[13:40] herman Bergson: Not only that....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: to many wars

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cause of that

[13:41] Abinoam Nørgaard: well, it's mostly for oil and natural resources, but ok

[13:41] herman Bergson: The arabs till 1150 A.D were world famous for their mathematical skills and knowledge....

[13:41] herman Bergson: they were top of the world....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: look at Algebra and similar

[13:41] herman Bergson: When Islam took over this ended abruptly

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: they were pioneers in math

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, islam stopped all development and it seems they still live likein the Middle Ages

[13:42] Abinoam Nørgaard: isn't the height of arabic scholarship actually well within the timeframe of islam?

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: thats sad

[13:42] herman Bergson: But their mathematical research was brought to the West....

[13:42] herman Bergson: Like the books of Aristotle also came by the Arab route!

[13:42] Dagg: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:43] herman Bergson: So claiming that the difference between Western and Chinese philosophy is just a matter of two sets of ethnocentric ideas is to easy....

[13:44] herman Bergson: It leaves out the specific place science has in culture in general

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: much more to it i guess

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: like religion for ex

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: all things come together

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: complicated

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes...China has big cultural problems at the moment, exactly because applied Western science  become more and more influential...

[13:45] herman Bergson: It is the Chinese who assemble our iPhones now....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:46] herman Bergson: where there isn't any technological tradition in that culture

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but they don't have all pieces of the puzzle to make all go together so to say

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: since they have not the rest of our culture

[13:46] herman Bergson: my idea Bejiita

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: well, there were some advances there, paper, gunpowder... there must have been some science and technology behind that, historically speaking

[13:47] herman Bergson: and the result of that is that they have to deal with consumerism as we have now...

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: maybe

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: however i don't think the Chinese understood how gunpowder worked in terms of chemistry, was more like a magic BANG powder

[13:47] herman Bergson: The absurd economic ideas of permanent growth...

[13:48] Abinoam Nørgaard: in that case, it's about methodology, rather than matter

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...next lecture we'll look at the Chinese side of the story

[13:48] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'm looking forward to that ㋡

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: this gets better and better

[13:48] herman Bergson: For now, thank you for your attention and participation again...

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: thank you, herman

[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:49] Dagg: thank you too Herman

[13:49] Bongo: thanks

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: nice ㋡

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all ㋡

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: bye bejita ㋡

[13:49] Abinoam Nørgaard: i'll be off too, take care everyone

[13:50] Dagg: bye all

[13:50] Mikki Louise: bye

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bye Dagg

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman..see you after next week

[13:50] Corronach: Thanks herman!

[13:51] Corronach: see you Thursday

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight everybody

494: Chinese Otherness continued

How are we to approach the question of Chinese philosophy against the background of the general recognition on the parts of both China and the West of vast  cultural differences? 

In the first place, we had better not overload the term philosophy with its Western connotations. 

What serves as "philosophic thinking" in China is significantly different from that with which most of us are familiar. 

Second, we must be prepared to understand the differences between Chinese and Western thinking as both cause and consequence of those broader cultural differences perhaps more easily observed.

In the previous lecture I referred to Gerald Heard's words: For Europeans it is the question "Where am I?"; for Chinese it is all about the question "What am I?"

Consequently, the West was focused on discovering the objective nature of things. Philosophers on metaphysics searched out the BEING of things. 

Epistemologists wondered how we can know the reality behind its appearances in our senses.

But the overriding concern of the Chinese has always been the establishment of harmonious relationships with their social ambience.  Their "philosophic" thinking is always concrete, this-worldly, and, above all, practical.

Western understandings of the way things hang together rest on the presumption that order and harmony must be vigilantly maintained by appeal to a creative agent or laws of nature and principles.

Ancient Greek thinking began with the question "What is there?" Elements like air, water, fire or atoms or the like. This lead to metaphysics, "ontologia generalis" on the one hand and a "scientia generalis", the more physical and scientific approach to BEING.

The whole conceptual framework which comes with this metaphysics is useless, if you want to apply it to Chinese thinking. It never developed a cosmology, an explanation of BEING, like we did.

This is reflected in the character of the Chinese language. Let me quote from "From Africa to Zen":

The usual Chinese equivalents for "being" and "not-being" are YU and WU. But the meanings of these terms are markedly different from their uses in Indo-European languages. 

The Chinese YU means not that something "is" in the sense that it  exists; it means rather that "something is present." "To be" is "to be available," "to be around." 

Likewise, "not be" means "not to be around." Thus, the Chinese sense of "being" overlaps with "having." A famous line from the Taoist classic the Tao Te Ching, often translated as "Not-Being is superior to Being," may as easily be translated "Not-having is superior to having". end quote -

Stated in a more general way, you could say, that Chinese thinking looks at the things how they are here and now and in harmony with their environment.

For that you don't need an established structure of the universe, organized by laws of nature and principles. You only need to look at things in there actual context.

The dominant meaning of order in the West is associated with uniformity and pattern regularity. In its most general sense, this "logical" or "rational" ordering is expressed in terms of the structure, or logos, of the cosmos. 

The Chinese understanding of order is one in which the natural and social worlds comprise concrete particulars whose uniqueness is essential to any context to which they belong.

This is just an example how different the West and China looked at metaphysical interpretations of the world we live in. They both have a different starting point.

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Routledge History of World Philosophies, vol 3, History of Chinese Philosophy (2009)

An Introduction to Chinese Philosophy - Karyn L. Lai, Oxford 2008

Chinese Philosophy, P. Carus, 1902

A Brief History of chinese Philosophy. D.T. Suzuki, 1914

From Africa to Zen, ed. R.Solomons & K. Higgins  2003 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^

[13:18] NectanebusNectanebus applauds

[13:19] Gandalf Whinstanes: Thank you.

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free :-)

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: i am

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: impressed.

[13:19] xtc yonimyxtc: :-)

[13:19] Nectanebus: Yeah, some real heavy concepts and wordings today ;)

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: is our way of thinking more complicated than the Chinese way of thinking/

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: aaa very interesting

[13:19] .: Beertje :.: ?

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: i guess it is

[13:20] herman Bergson: Well I am impressed myself by the huge difference in perception of reality between the West and China

[13:20] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje....

[13:20] Gandalf Whinstanes: I am new to this, pardon my simplicity. When you say they have different starting points, does that mean they meet on things at some point?

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: we use lot of physics and complicated formulas to describe the world, the chinese i guess just are

[13:20] herman Bergson: Because this relates to how we look(ed) at the Chinese for centuries...

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: try to be in harmony with nature and then its good

[13:21] ἀρετή: hmm..

[13:21] herman Bergson: That has been the case Bejiita....

[13:21] herman Bergson: But the weird thing is....

[13:21] ἀρετή: since when has the Chinese been in harmony with nature?

[13:21] Nectanebus: IN thought if not action, areyn, for a while

[13:21] herman Bergson: eventually everyone likes to use the laws of nature and physics...

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: well i guess so cause thats where u learn in detail how everything rweally work for the curious minded

[13:22] herman Bergson: Your remark, Arayn, is typical for our approach of the situation....

[13:22] ἀρετή: with one difference.. :)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Because you apply YOUR concept of harmony to Chinese thinking...

[13:23] Nectanebus: I'm kind of interested by the part about how "Chinese" thought focuses less on "why" things are, and more on the use in context. Kinda links to their ready acceptance of Communism as an ideal easier than a more "what contingency" American outlook..

[13:23] herman Bergson: and it might well be the case that it doesn't apply at all within their thinking]

[13:24] xtc yonimyxtc: being in harmony with nature keeps you in nature. being in harmony with the universe keeps you universal

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: guess so

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:24] herman Bergson: I agree Bejiita ^_^

[13:25] herman Bergson: But to respond to Nectanebus remark....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Social harmony is one of the ruling principles in Chiese thinking...

[13:25] ἀρετή: I thought it's financial wealth.. .

[13:25] Nectanebus: as opposed to the individualistic Western notions, yeah ;)

[13:26] Nectanebus: and everyone wants wealth if we're talking nations, areyn

[13:26] herman Bergson: So accepting communism in stead of confucianism wasn't such a big difference, technically, I would guess

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: i did, too, areyn

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: financial harmony

[13:27] xtc yonimyxtc: the Chinese warlords would differ on that

[13:27] herman Bergson: I think China is in a deep cultural crisis at the moment....

[13:27] Nectanebus: That's kind of my logic as well, Herman. Also like how Capitalism was taken up in America easily off the back of Social Darwinism et cetera, it's all how far back you trace the lines heh

[13:27] Nectanebus: sorry, do continue

[13:27] herman Bergson: no you are right Nectanebus....

[13:28] Gandalf Whinstanes: Is China going through the same thing Japan did after mixing with us?

[13:28] Nectanebus: Interesting idea, Gandalf...

[13:28] herman Bergson: China is now absorbing consumerism and capitalism in its system....and these are alien aspects of society to them...

[13:28] Corronach: it's quite a shame.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: dont knowing how to handle it so spins out of control

[13:29] herman Bergson: But on the other hand Chinese are as human as we are and have the same brain layout ....

[13:29] Gandalf Whinstanes: then the decadence and greed sets in, then the generation gap.

[13:29] Nectanebus: Phrenology be damned!

[13:29] herman Bergson: so greed , pleasure , etc...are also known to them....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: we all work the same way basically yes

[13:29] ἀρετήἀρετή smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: no no not phrenology...that is nonsense...

[13:29] Nectanebus: BUt yeah, certainly generation gaps seem to be a defining point of cultural loss over the past 40 years especially

[13:30] Nectanebus: Yeah, I know, I was having a giggle with the phrenology thing.

[13:30] herman Bergson: just simple neurobiological properties of the human being...

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think i was trying to say our level of it. whereas they've lived harmoiously, capitalism injects a greater competitive nature.

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: kind of messes things up a bit.

[13:30] Gandalf Whinstanes: and the generation gap i think is the sudden embracing of technology.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gandalf, something like that may be the case....

[13:31] Gandalf Whinstanes: i wonder if their kids will have a high suicide rate like japan.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Competition was not one of their social values.....harmony is...

[13:31] ἀρετή: the generation gap seems to be asian parents sending their kids to be educated in the western world.. coming back with a western thinking to the eastern world..

[13:31] Nectanebus: That's an interesting one

[13:31] Nectanebus: But then we did the same in the 60s

[13:32] herman Bergson: and in the 20s too...

[13:32] Gandalf Whinstanes: it created a gap as well.

[13:32] Nectanebus: These cultural bleed throughs may all be long overdue teething proccesses, to some extent.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah'

[13:32] Gandalf Whinstanes: now parenting is in trouble in my opinion, as a result.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Betrand Russell and John Dewey lectured in China...

[13:32] Nectanebus: names...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Leading philosophers in those days Nectanebus....

[13:33] herman Bergson: un the UK and the US...

[13:33] Nectanebus: Ah, analytics and such

[13:33] Nectanebus: Sorry, I'm better with concepts than the creators thereof  [13:33] herman Bergson: yes and pragmatism....

[13:33] Gandalf Whinstanes: Do Chinese intellects look at us as inferior, equal, or superior.

[13:33] herman Bergson: but it was all overruled by communism in 1949

[13:33] ἀρετή: as inferior..

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: I feel our cultures are definitely inferior to theirs, meaning America.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Good question Gandalf...

[13:34] herman Bergson: but Ido not know the answer...

[13:34] Nectanebus: I@m sure gwailo and gaijin are as loaded terms for 20-something Chinese kids as certain slurs were for us in the 70s..

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: They've had millennia to learn to get along.

[13:34] Nectanebus: Chinese/Japanese*

[13:34] herman Bergson: They have always looked at us as an inferior species....rude, clumsy and barbaric

[13:34] Gandalf Whinstanes: valid

[13:35] Nectanebus: Shinto helps in those circumstances, methinks

[13:35] Nectanebus: Being descended directly from Gods kind of gives people superiority complexes sometimes...

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: what are 'methinks'?

[13:35] Gandalf Whinstanes: Their culture is much older and less conflicted than ours.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: huess so

[13:36] Gandalf Whinstanes: thats where i think they have advantage. we have no culture really.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: guess

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...I don't know how things are now in that respect....

[13:36] Nectanebus: Sorry, "methinks" is old slang for "I think".

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: ok..thank you ㋡

[13:36] Nectanebus: np

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is a bit too fast Gandalf, to say that we have no culture....

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: well, hopefully given the age of the culture, these new events will only be a ripple, not a break.

[13:37] herman Bergson: just being a society is culture and not nature

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: But we are splintered and divided.

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: and young.

[13:37] Corronach: i would agree with you, Herman

[13:37] herman Bergson: So  many cultures in a melting pot Gandalf :-)

[13:37] Nectanebus: BUt all cultures have bits of others. English is Latin+Saxon+French, Rome harkened back to Egypt, yaddadeedoo

[13:37] Gandalf Whinstanes: i would disagree.

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think the melting pot was all hype.

[13:38] Nectanebus: haha

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: whatever was put into it was diminished.

[13:38] Gandalf Whinstanes: not combined or refined.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Nectanabus.....but we have little understanding of Chinese cuture

[13:38] Nectanebus ponders

[13:38] herman Bergson: The chinese..like the Japanese use Western science...yes...

[13:39] xtc yonimyxtc: i agree to an extent, gandalf - cultural melding takes time

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Gandalf...we still live in a world which is divided, not uniting....

[13:39] Gandalf Whinstanes: i think our culture, specifically, is conflicted because we have no harmony. Everyone is hyphenated something, not americans.

[13:39] ἀρετή: is it possible to create a new culture?

[13:39] Nectanebus: I think we focus more on our differences as vilification rather than areas to explore as avenues of learning about cultures. Kind of like nikhabs, there's so many layers to their meanings and most Westerners think all women that wear one are persecuted Mary Sues...

[13:40] Nectanebus: Interesting point, areyn...

[13:40] Nectanebus: Maybe it's a worry of being proud of any culture when we're in a politically correct society

[13:40] Nectanebus: Thus we all go grey by lowest common denominator politic

[13:41] herman Bergson: I can not predict the future Arayn, but I guess....not in our lifetime ever...

[13:41] Nectanebus has no answers here, only questions

[13:41] Nectanebus: Seems to be the problem of our age, though

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: i am not a hyphenated citizen and i am a first generation born citizen of an officially declared multicultural country. i was taught by my immigrant parents to take up the main, historic culture of my country

[13:41] Nectanebus: "Why can't we all just....get along?"

[13:41] Nectanebus: I think you've hit the nail, xtc ;)

[13:42] Gandalf Whinstanes: political correctness is really the ending of free speech and expression. we remain divided over petty issues, which allows us to ignore the worldy ones.

[13:42] Gandalf Whinstanes: the Chinese move as one it seems.

[13:43] herman Bergson: I think all becomes too much speculation here now :-)

[13:43] Nectanebus: Bound to happen, haha

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] ἀρετή: sorry.. goes back to the lesson :)

[13:43] herman Bergson: so to focus again on the main issue today....

[13:43] herman Bergson: we can observe that our metaphysics do not fit in with Chinese thinking....

[13:44] herman Bergson: In Chinese there are no words for concepts we use....and that is remarkable...

[13:45] herman Bergson: this difference is cause and consequence of a certain culture...

[13:45] herman Bergson: The way we live causes ideas and the ideas lead to new behavioral patterns...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: an amazing fact if you see the difference between Western and Chinese philosophy

[13:46] Gandalf Whinstanes: we are at a point in history where the cultures are colliding?

[13:46] Gandalf Whinstanes: with china becoming most wealthy.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: could say that i guess

[13:46] herman Bergson: And you can witness every day in the news how this affects us and China as a society...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well Gandalf..

[13:47] Gandalf Whinstanes: when you say society, you mean both of us together? or individually?

[13:47] herman Bergson: if you take into account the collapse of communism in 1989 and the switch to capitalist methods in China today..yes ...I guess you are right

[13:48] Nectanebus: It's interesting how China's almost being set up as "The Second Red Menace". American media is already "othering" them in the same way as they did Russia during the Cold War.

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: Other?

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: whats that mean?

[13:48] Nectanebus: To "other" a person, uhh..

[13:48] herman Bergson: TO feel united you need an enemy Gandalf...:-)

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: ahhhh.

[13:48] Gandalf Whinstanes: us and them.

[13:49] Nectanebus: It's identifying as "us" and "them".

[13:49] Nectanebus: yeah

[13:49] Gandalf Whinstanes: well, thats our specialty.

[13:49] herman Bergson: And since the Russians are no threat anymore, the US needs a new enemy, I guess

[13:49] Gandalf Whinstanes: thats our sickness.

[13:49] Nectanebus: And Communism's the same threat they had for Russia and Vietnam, so third strike?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Not a sickness Gandalf...basic human behavior...

[13:50] herman Bergson: like all primates have a sense of "us" and "the others"

[13:50] herman Bergson: still tribal thinking...:-)

[13:50] Gandalf Whinstanes: I would say given Americas war mongering ways, and success with it, we are not basic in those aspects.

[13:50] Nectanebus: Pack mentality, et cetera, starting of society in monkeys and such

[13:51] herman Bergson: No Gandalf that is a way more complex discussion....not meant for this class :-)

[13:51] Nectanebus: heh

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well, I guess we saved the world again today....

[13:51] xtc yonimyxtc: the 'new enemy' is the islamist terrorists, not china

[13:51] Gandalf Whinstanes: ironic.

[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your participation :-))

[13:51] ἀρετή: can we just send all the people who think of us and them to the moon.. they'll see just one Earth

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Gandalf Whinstanes: yes.

[13:52] Gandalf Whinstanes: thank you Herman.

[13:52] Nectanebus: Thanks Herman, interesting as always :)

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yues

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: very

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:52] xtc yonimyxtc: thank you very much, Professor Bergson.

[13:52] Gandalf Whinstanes: ciao.

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Corronach: Thanks Herman

[13:52] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita :-)