In the Netherlands we have an extreme right-wing party. Some of you may have heard of its leader, Geert Wilders. In 2007 we had two members of the government, who had a double nationality, two passports.
One Dutch passport and one Moroccan passport. This Mr. Wilders then said, that he is against a double nationality. Not because these two persons were Morrocan.
Literally he said in parliament: " If you had blond hair and a Swedish passport, I would have said the same".
And what happens? Among the group of people who are now our new government is a lady (not blond), but with a Swedish passport!
Thence Mr. Wilders demands again for removal of this double nationally person, or the lady has to give up her swedish passport.
In my opinion this is a perfect example how our supersense operates in society. Let me quote Bruce to clarify my point.
Our mind design seems set to look for patterns and deeper causal explanations for the different kinds of things we think exist in the living world.
This process leads to spontaneous untaught concepts of essences, life energies and holistic connection. Many of these beliefs can also be found in ancient models of the natural world where hidden structures and mechanisms where thought to reflect a supernatural order in the universe.
While these intuitive concepts have real scientific validity to some extent, our naive way of thinking about them leads us to attribute additional properties that would be supernatural if true.
Such beliefs also influence the way we see ourselves as members of a group. In particular, our supersense leads us to infer something essential and integral to the group that should not be violated or contaminated by outside influences.
-END BRUCE
In this passport affaire we have a perfect example of how supernatural ideas work, or even endanger a society, for on the one hand we have us (the citizens with just a Dutch passport) and on the other hand there are those (inhabitants with more passports)
Here you see that because of the possession of two administrative documents this Mr. Wilders attributes a special quality to these persons, or actually the lack of a special quality: to be 100% Dutch only.
Of course it is formulated in other words. It is said that it is a show of loyalty to the Netherlands to give up your second passport.
What we are witnessing here is vulgar nationalism. The supernatural belief that living within the borders of a country adds to your person the special quality of being Dutch.
What we really see is a primitive way of thinking, which leads us to infer something essential and integral to the group that should not be violated or contaminated by outside influences.
We can feel revulsion and disgust for everything that deviates from the sacred values of the group. An obvious example of the intuitive inclination to revulsion is racism and in our case nationalism.
This passport affaire aims at vulgar nationalism. You also hear it in the words of the German prime minister, who said that the multi-cultural society has proven to be a failure.
Here you see how important it is to be aware of our drive to see forces and essences, where they are not. Nationalism and racism have left deep wounds in European history, as it has elsewhere on this planet.
When you are not one of us, we identify you as someone who is not prepared the share the group's sacred values even when these values are purely arbitrary. That is the attitude here. Dangerous.
This is because our supersense makes these values seem reasonable because of the moral indignation we experience fuelled by our intuitive emotional system. As social animals, we depend on our supersense, even when it flies in the face of reason. (Bruce)
Ok…and now the politicians at word. The man who is now Prime Minister said int 2007 and I quote:" The Dutch passport is not just a piece of paper, it stands for a nationality, a nation to which you belong and it just isn't right if you have a double nationality"
In 2010, just recently he was asked about the presence of a person with double nationality in his government… and I quote: "From the fact that I was familiar with her double nationality you may conclude that I do't see a problem here."
That is a super supersense world!!!!
The Discussion
[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: oh brother
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: really crazy
[13:24] Alarice Beaumont: aw...that really is something... yes
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes bejiita ..but that is the effect of our supersen...
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: we have the same type of thing going on here at this time
[13:24] Alarice Beaumont: but that is reality.. how ppl think
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Alarice...and we know it is based on nothing....but emotions
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: guess its a bit like what Hitler was thinking about killing all people in the world except the arians, not as extreme but same hirrible way of thinking in general
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: people are people
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: nomater where they are from
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: we are always reinventing ourselves i guess
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: well... not so sure about that Herman.... it's the experience ppl have
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: lol yes Gemma
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: is it not like situation ethics???
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: the idea of a melting pot of culture and hence nationalities is absurd in reality
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Alarice….
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: one other example in sweden is when fully educated engineers from iraque / iran or some other place are handed a vacuum cleaner or asked to mop toilets, in best case they become pizza bakers
[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: the US has been taunted as melting pot, it is a false claim
[13:26] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. i think it would take generation to succeed in this Ari and the ppl really have to be willing
[13:26] herman Bergson: One of the characteristics of supersense ideas is that they are based on personal experience...never on scientific facts and research
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: thats racisctic and a horrible waste of human resource
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: groups will form within every group and then splintger off into new groups
[13:27] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. in the use it doesn't really melt... they just stay what they are, live near each other but thousand of miles away...
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: more than a generation this has been going on here every 40-50 years or so when new nationalities begin to grow here
[13:27] Alarice Beaumont: and keep their culture and even language... horrible
[13:28] Alarice Beaumont: hmm.. wrong word for this... but that's not melting in the way i would describe it
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: well
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: the US governmenst even support the dual langues
[13:28] herman Bergson: We have the same problem here...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Morrocan women live here for 30 years and still dont speak Dutch...
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: but here usually the first generations does that and i dont blame them but after the second generation become adult they blend moer into the society
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: it is a case of education too
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: I think people should adapt somewhere to here at least, for example i dont speak arabic or farsi and they sometimes even cant speak english
[13:29] Jozen Ocello: policies
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: the politicians pander to the splintered groups for votes
[13:29] herman Bergson: But let's get back to the main issue here...
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:30] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:30] herman Bergson: nationalism and racisim are clear examples of supernatural thinking
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: its we and them sort of
[13:30] herman Bergson: and it proofs how dangerous supernatural thinking can be for our species if it wants to survive
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: and Herman.. i never would have put that subject under "superstitious"
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: wow never really considered it a supernatural thinking
[13:31] herman Bergson: that is the point I wanted to make today...
[13:31] herman Bergson: But it is Gemma...
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hmm not me wither but guess can be logical
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: yes i see
[13:32] herman Bergson: Put me on the table…dissect me...and try to find my Dutchness in the corps
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:32] Alarice Beaumont: isn't it just putting the experience one had with some person... on to all
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: would you equate the stated example as be relative to the political parties ing the US, Republic & Democrat? One must believe the whole platform to belong?
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: i bet it is visible
[13:32] Alarice Beaumont: lool
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] herman Bergson: Ok...I wear wooden shoes....lol
[13:32] Alarice Beaumont: loool
[13:32] ladyy Haven: lol
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: that i have some really good ones rl
[13:33] herman Bergson: what is ignored is that we are just human beings...
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes we are all the same
[13:34] herman Bergson: a bumblebee in the US doesn't differ from a bumblebee in the Netherlands....same insects...or do we have Dutch bumblebees, that don't speak english???
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: primally, we are all the same, cerebrally we are all different
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: one thing i love with SL is you meet people from all world and have great fun
[13:34] herman Bergson: the idea that we are a NATION....is idiotic supersense ado....
[13:34] herman Bergson: and look how politicians deal with it...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not at all on the completely wrong way
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes...as Bruce admits too...we need such supernatioral ideas to keep the group together
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: groups to me are people i like no matter where they are from
[13:36] herman Bergson: you are globalized Bejiita :-)
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: like in SL the hydra group is where i have really good friends
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: all of you
[13:36] Jozen Ocello: i think diversity draws the group closer together in a way...
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: our society of groups are similar to the food chain, the langer groups are a danger to the smaller ones
[13:37] herman Bergson: So the US is a danger to the little ones Aristitle??? :-)
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: certainly a danger to individuals
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: yes the US is a danger :))
[13:37] herman Bergson: smiles...
[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: afraid so
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: aaa some don't even know the world map, they think the world is only USA
[13:38] herman Bergson: Better get back to our philosphical point...
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: it is that human nature thing and the lack of control of it by our reasoning mind
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: mixes sweden with schweiz thinking we make watches and sweden house the LHC
[13:39] herman Bergson: If I would believe you Bejiita it really seems to be so..:-)
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: well we have particle accelerators, biggest syncrotron light source in world is being built and wee also will have the ESS accelerator, the worlds biggest neutron gun
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: i at least think the MAX 4 accelerator will be the biggest
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well..I think that you now all have seen how supersense works in society...
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: we have that but NOT the LHC
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: really interesting ideas
[13:40] herman Bergson: We always have to be on alert to expose that kind of thinking...
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: It seems civilized society is merely manipulated anarchy, whoever has the biggest gun wins
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: about stuff i get SOOOO mad about when i read the news sometimes
[13:41] Qwark Allen: fear will be the biggest gun
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:41] Jozen Ocello: almost like in the game, civilization
[13:41] herman Bergson: ANother chapter Qwark...but a big one ^_^
[13:41] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:41] Qwark Allen: nice
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: aa yes, i thought about that one, in that game i can be a real swine killing lot of others and play hitler and so but thats only a game, I am not like that
[13:41] herman Bergson: So I guess..I made my point and you got the idea for today...
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but i like to play CIV
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: got it!
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: and the fear of the double passports goes deep into the innate urge to survive, you and your group
[[13:42] herman Bergson: Then I thank you all for your participation.....
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: for class
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: great Herman
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: i missed tues will read on the blog
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: got some really nice insights
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Professor
[13:42] herman Bergson: The double passport issue is utter nonsense!
[13:42] Qwark Allen: very interesting as always
[13:43] Jozen Ocello: thanks
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: have been busy in rl and at the burn2
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ah burs 2 is really fun
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: hope i will make it on tuesday
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed , but it puts a foreign agent in you midst to some
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: wonder what happens there now
[13:43] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. me too
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: did y played before Q
[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:43] Qwark Allen: ☆ - ~*~Partyyyyyyyyyy!!!!~*~ - ☆
[13:43] Qwark Allen: indeed, and was nice
13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa ㋡
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