Sunday, January 24, 2016

596: The individual and Nietzsche

Last week I was reading “Individualism and Economic Order” by Friedrich A. Hayek. It was published in 1949.
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Then it is always so rewarding that someone thinks along the same lines as I do, although he was first, but I hadn’t read him till now :-)
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So …at least a few credits to myself. It was the first essay: Individualism: True and False.
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There he discusses the concept of individualism as it originated from John Locke on the one hand and from Descartes on the other hand.
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In fact the same dichotomy I make between Locke cum suis and the Continental philosophers. I have the same ideas about the concept of individualism.
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I’ll get back to Hayek later of course. Now, however, we continue with the Continental philosophers and in this case Friedrich Nietzsche.
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Like Kierkegaard Nietzsche wasn't a systematic philosopher, a philosopher with a consistent ontological, epistemological or metaphysical overall theory.
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He too, like Kierkegaard would have in SL at least one alt avatar with whom he permanently would argue and discuss his own ideas.
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The philosophical development of Nietzsche can be divided in three phases: the first phase is the period 
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when he adored Schopenhauer and Wagner and the culture of the old Greek. A mix of Schopenhauerian pessimism and Wagnerian heroism.
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The Will is for Schopenhauer the principle of life and it is what drives man. But we are at the mercy of this Will. 
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Its restless striving for changes is rather a source of misery than of happiness. The only way to gain the victory over this will is
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to concentrate on contemplation of it in a way you could compare with the buddhist approach to life.......
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Nietzsche's first book was "The Birth of Tragedy" and dealt with Greek tragedies, in which the hero acts self-confident and powerful, but also has the power to comply to fate, that befalls him.
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Man is submitted to powers stronger than he is himself, and to that he has to adjust his will. Yet he has to live in full passion. 
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And here Nietzsche makes the contrast between the Dionysian and Appolonian way.
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He celebrates the Greek who, facing up to the terrors of nature and history, did not seek refuge in "a Buddhistic negation of the will"  (Appolonian), as Schopenhauer did, 
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but instead created tragedies in which life is affirmed as beautiful in spite of everything (Dionysian).
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Here you see, that Nietzsche was not just a simple disciple of Schopenhauer, but clearly chooses an other conclusion than the master. 
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Man as the maker of his own existence with the will to power. There he was THE individual: the Übermensch.  
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No need for a god. God was dead, as Nietzsche wrote. 
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Thank you…the floor is yours with your remarks and questions…
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The Discussion

[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) claps
[13:17] herman Bergson: The individual as the hero...creator of his own life due to his wil to power
[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): I guess he was right
[13:18] herman Bergson: Well..indeed I feel kind of a hero indeed Daruma :-)
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): lol
[13:18] CB Axel: I disagree with the idea that man is constantly striving for change.
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no we are all the leaders of our lives.
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no one else.
[13:18] CB Axel: At least, not all men.
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): we can not blame anything to others.
[13:19] herman Bergson: What do you mean by change CB?
[13:19] CB Axel: Conservatives want to keep things the same if not regress to an earlier (probably imagined) time.
[13:20] herman Bergson: I see...
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:20] Areyn Laurasia: Anything that is constant would stagnate...
[13:20] herman Bergson: But for Nietzsche life is a creative process...
[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true Areyn
[13:20] herman Bergson: so things change...
[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja life flows
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): thats a totally natural thing
[13:21] herman Bergson: Just suppose you would be conservative in medicines?
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: progress is a good thing in most cases
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): and we humans are only a part of nature
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: if not all cases
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): what cases?
[13:21] CB Axel: Oh, I agree. Progress is good, but not all people feel that way.
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: thats true
[13:21] herman Bergson: Tricky statement Bejiita....progress...
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true cb. thats the problem in life^^
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: the opposite of what conservatives want
[13:22] herman Bergson: are we talking about progress of change...
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: which is stagnation
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: but progress can be different i guess
[13:22] herman Bergson: you could say that change, which increases our chance to survive may be defined as progress..yes
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: both good and bad
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:23] herman Bergson: I think the "good/bad" you refer to Bejiita is the use of changes...
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:23] herman Bergson: like inventing dynamite was  a change...one the one hand good on theother hand bad
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: progress often sounds like a positive word and then i d say progress is a good thing if thats the case
[13:24] herman Bergson: it is just how you use the changes
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:25] herman Bergson: What we are working on here is the development of the concept of individualism....
[13:25] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes, its always interesting to see how people handle with changes in their lifes
[13:25] herman Bergson: of the individual....
[13:25] herman Bergson: and we see two approaches...Schopenhauer and Nietzsche...
[13:26] herman Bergson: The pessimistic and the optimistic individual....
[13:26] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ;-)
[13:26] herman Bergson: both  driven by will
[13:26] herman Bergson: For Schopenhauer the will to survive....
[13:26] herman Bergson: for Nietzsche the will to create..to rule...
[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma):  to create and rule is also something to survive. in my view
[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps better, than Schopenhauer thinks
[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ää thought
[13:27] herman Bergson: To my knowledge you don't find this debate in any other culture on earth
[13:27] CB Axel: It sounds like Nietzsche had a comfortable life. He was higher up it Maslow pyramid.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Daruma....but Schopenhauer  focuses on how to bear all misery of life...
[13:28] CB Axel: Schopenhauer was still at the bottom. Just trying to survive.
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: a pessimist
[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja, and you can not survive with a negative mind in loife
[13:29] herman Bergson: Nietzsche ignited the torch....and stepped into a future
[13:29] Areyn Laurasia: passive.. *smiles*
[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): life
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why did Schopenhauer focus on misery? what happened to him?
[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): didn’t he know that?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Beertje..answering that question would violate the privacy of Schopenhauer :-)))
[13:30] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): rofl
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that means you don't know?
[13:30] herman Bergson: lol
[13:30] Areyn Laurasia: brilliant answer ;)
[13:31] herman Bergson: He was an egocentric misogenic man....
[13:31] herman Bergson: or how do you spell that he disliked women a lot...
[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: misogynist?
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was gay?
[13:31] herman Bergson: He was friendly to animals though...had two dogs...
[13:31] CB Axel: He was free to feel that way, I guess.
[13:31] CB Axel: Two male dogs?
[13:31] CB Axel: hehehe
[13:31] herman Bergson: There is no reference anywhere to that inclination Beertje...
[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): that does not mean anything, when u have animals;-) sadly...
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why did he dislike woman? what did his mother do to him?
[13:32] herman Bergson: I know, Daruma, but I just say it to say at least something positive about his personality :-))
[13:32] CB Axel: I like animals better than people.
[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: perhaps she was too strict on him.. but that's entirely speculative
[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ok. herman.
[13:33] Areyn Laurasia: but it's true that a lot of religion focus on pain and suffering
[13:33] herman Bergson: There isnt much know about Schopenhauer’s personal psychology....
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: he seems a very special guy
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): something must have happen in his life because he was so negative
[13:34] CB Axel: Yes, but religion focuses on the pain being alleviated after death. It does very little to help people here on Earth.
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: tru
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: e
[13:35] herman Bergson: I wouldn’t say that Beertje...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: either you go to heaven and play harp or to hell and burn for eternity
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): playing harp all day???? omg
[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: and here I thought Nietzsche was the one who was more negative.. with an nihilistic and tough views
[13:35] Bejiita Imako:
[13:35] herman Bergson: which is a warmer environment than all those cold clouds Bejiita :-)
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: haha indeed
[13:36] CB Axel: Wasn't Schopenhauer stuck with trying to fit God into his philosophy?
[13:36] CB Axel: That would make anyone more negative, IMHO.
[13:36] herman Bergson: The nihilism only concerns the existence of moral values....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Nietzsche wasn’t negative about life, I'd say
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: he seems a bit different
[13:37] herman Bergson: Bu tthe interesting point is the idea that man is the creator of his own life....
[13:37] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): dat klopt
[13:38] herman Bergson: that idea now lives in European culture....
[13:38] herman Bergson: For centuries it was god who managed our lives...
[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: who's going to take responsibility for the mess of the world we live in now.. if we are all creators of our own lives?
[13:38] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): happily the staff changed. ;-)
[13:38] herman Bergson: and in islamic countries people still life by the idea.....If Allah allows....
[13:38] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Areyn
[13:39] CB Axel: Areyn, it would be nice to be able to blame God.
[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): everyone is responsible. and all together we make what the world is now
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: very true
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well Areyn...I dare say that this world isnt a mess at all....
[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): with our consumption, thoughts and acting in life
[13:39] herman Bergson: ok...there are messy things going on...
[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no wonder^^
[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: maybe I should move where the tulip fields are as well... XD
[13:40] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no just keep our own garden clean^^
[13:40] herman Bergson: but the number of democratic countries...that is where people CAN create their own live increase steadily
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:40] CB Axel: That's true, Herman. And very encouraging.
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:41] herman Bergson: the number of wars have decreased..tho when you see the news programs you get to  believe that the whole world is at war
[13:41] CB Axel: Today's wars have better marketing. °͜°
[13:41] herman Bergson: that's the point CB!
[13:42] CB Axel: Oh good! I made a point! Yipee!!!
[13:42] herman Bergson: And all that nonsense about the fugitives in Europe....
[13:42] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja media is also very bad today for our living
[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: it does affect us here
[13:42] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): and for our thinking
[13:42] herman Bergson: In the 50s we had people from Hungary...happily integrated....
[13:42] herman Bergson: then we had the fugitives from Serbia, Kosovo...
[13:43] herman Bergson: happily integrated....
[13:43] herman Bergson: now they come from Syria and africa....so what?
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: now Hungaria show them self from their worst side, treating people in need as they all were terrorists and closing all out
[13:43] herman Bergson: We are wealthy , well organized...have alot to offer
[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Don't be shocked ... http://www.lucify.com/the-flow-towards-europe/
[13:44] herman Bergson: sorry...I let myself go...totally off topic now :-))
[13:44] CB Axel: Ha! You're as bad as the rest of us. LOL
[13:44] herman Bergson: Plz...your questions and remarks :-))
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thanls for the support CB :-)
[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: at least the fugitives show free will... ^^
[13:46] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps the answer is, that we all move more south. would be interesting to see what would happen then
[13:46] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): when we don’t mind war or crises
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...we have to face the cultural differences...
[13:47] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true
[13:47] herman Bergson: the newcomers wont be that much used to our individualism perhaps
[13:47] CB Axel: It will be quite a shock to them.
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think that is the problem
[13:47] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes, sadly they couldn’t develop themselves as much as we could 
[13:47] Areyn Laurasia: it's a big change
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are free to think what we want
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes...a culture shock indeed
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: trye
[13:48] herman Bergson: But keep thinking of Huntington.....
[13:48] herman Bergson: how he pointed out that our future will be a clash among cultures...
[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: or a celebration of diversity?
[13:49] herman Bergson: That is what is going on today
[13:49] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): i am often in Amsterdam. and Amsterdam is - u know;-) a city with a lot of party, drugs and so on. and i was in a train with a lot of refugees and i thought then after arriving; well - i guess thats not the best town to start a new life with totally different rules
[13:49] CB Axel: Won't the clash be made less of a shock thanks to the internet?
[13:50] herman Bergson: That might be the case indeed..or at least I would hope you are right CB
[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: partly... but imagine having a career, and education and lose all to rely on others generosity
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:50] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thanks everyone for a really interesting one, Herman great! Sleep well everyone
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: this was great indeed
[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: sweet dreams, Chantal
[13:50] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): night chantal
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Truste Chantal
[13:50] CB Axel: One of my ancestors did that, Areyn.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: now off to some halloween event
[13:51] herman Bergson: Where Chantal goes we all go :-))
[13:51] CB Axel: Good night, Chantal.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday I hope
[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): woot bejita
[13:51] Bejiita Imako:
[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank you all again...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako:
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you for another interesting discussion, everyone.
[13:51] Areyn Laurasia: Thank you
[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja dank je wel herman
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): interesting as always
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel:)
[[13:52] herman Bergson: Your Dutch gets better and better Daruma :-)
[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): i will be here again next thursday
[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): lol herman. i have to learn it better, perhaps i move to amsterdamn next year.
[13:52] Areyn Laurasia: Time to look for a halloween costume..
[13:52] CB Axel: I'll see everyone (except Darum, I guess) on Tuesday.
[13:52] CB Axel: Good bye.
[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) waves
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: good evening all
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): same time tuesday Herman?
[13:53] herman Bergson: Have fun Areyn :-)
[13:53] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): nini all
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks

[13:53] herman Bergson: always 1 PM SL TIME

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