The Vienna Secession was founded on 3 April 1897 by the artist Gustav Klimt (1862 - 1918) and others.
It was an art movement formed by a group of Austrian artists who had resigned from the Association of Austrian Artists, housed in the Vienna Künstlerhaus.
Secession artists were concerned, above all else, with the possibilities of art outside the confines of academic tradition.
They hoped to create a new style that owed nothing to historical influence, in keeping with the spirit of turn-of-the-century Vienna ,
the time and place that also saw the publication of Freud's first writings.
In Vienna two worlds collided: the old traditional one and the world of artists with new ideas, like Adolf Loos said...
Art should wake up people and disturb their comfort zone. Not art for the sake of art anymore.
This provocative attitude we also see in the work of Gustav Klimt. For us it is sometimes difficult to see,
for when you look at the work of Klimt today, there is nothing shocking in it or provoking. It is just beautiful.
But Klimt painted female figures radiating a languishing eroticism. His work can not really be called Freudian: his women were by no means neurotic.
They make a calm, balanced and, above all, lascivious impression, as "the instinctive life frozen in art".
But still: with his emphasis on female sensuality, Klimt suggested that it had not yet been satisfied. As a result, his female figures were threatening.
They were presented as insatiable and without any sense of sin. With this portrayal Klimt also went against the prevailing way of thinking like Freud did.
These were women who seemed capable of any perversity described by Krafft-Ebing, who I mentioned in a previous lecture.
This made them seductive and shocking at the same time.
The whole of Vienna immediately took sides for or against Klimt. The battle culminated in his dispute with the university
The university gave him an assignment for three ceiling paintings: Philosophy, Medicine and Jurisprudence.
'The victory of light on the dark', according to the university, had to be the theme of Philosophy.
Klimt came with an impenetrable, "inextricable tangle of bodies", as they called it, that seemed to escape the viewer.
It was a kaleidoscopic jumble of forms that were intertwined and surrounded by emptiness. The philosophy professors were deeply indignant.
Their accusations were that Klimt had presented 'unclear ideas in unclear forms'. And philosophy was in fact a rational matter; it searched for the truth through the exact sciences.
That was the last thing that Klimt wanted, with the result that his work was not accepted.
Eighty professors signed a petition in which they demanded that the painting should never be shown in the university.
Klimt then returned his fee and did not deliver the other paintings to the University. In the Second World War, the three panels would unfortunately be lost.
Klimt made an important statement with these paintings. How could rationalism, that was his question, win if the irrational, the instinctive is so prevalent in life?
Does rationalism really mean progress? Instincts are older and stronger forces. Certainly, they can be more atavistic and primitive, and even a dark force at times.
But what is the profit if you deny them? Until World War II, this would remain an important question in German thinking.
A later painting of Klimt, entitled Goldfish (to my critics) (1901–1902), which showed a smiling, beautiful woman projecting her bottom at the viewer,
was an obvious response to all those who attacked the "pornography" and "perverted excess" of the University paintings.
Thank you for your attention... ^_^
The Discussion
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a flasher
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I like those paintings
[13:25] herman Bergson smiles
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe the first
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Guess you are right Gemma :-)
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he has one painting i am familiar with the lady with a boa
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that one is very usual
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess in those times everyone was terrified of nakedness and similar things
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Bejiita
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus hated his paintings
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think they are nice
[13:27] herman Bergson: and that is why he painted them, I assume....
[13:28] herman Bergson: Maybe his idea of instinct versus rationality
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be
[13:28] herman Bergson: this has become a scientific question indeed....
[13:29] herman Bergson: what are we?
[13:29] herman Bergson: instinct driven or rational beings?
[13:29] CB Axel: I think we're a combination of both.
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:29] herman Bergson: in those days philosophers tried to tackle the question....take Nietzsche here for instance
[13:30] herman Bergson: but these days the question is related to the structure of our brain.....
[13:30] herman Bergson: it is no longer a philosophical issue but a neurobiological one
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is very true
[13:31] herman Bergson: We now know the structure of the brain....
[13:31] CB Axel: We have the primitive part of our brain, but we need to use the more evolved part to evaluate our primitive urges and decide whether to give in to them or not.
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes CB....a very interesting issue...
[13:32] CB Axel: I think it is still a philosophical issue since we now know about the different parts of the brain and need to decide how to use them together.
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:32] CB Axel: We need to think about which we should let dominate in any given circumstance.
[13:32] herman Bergson: I think the problem is more that we do not know how we use them really together CB
[13:33] herman Bergson: Just listen to what you say CB.....very interesting....
[13:33] herman Bergson: We need to think about.......
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can we use them together tho
[13:33] CB Axel: I tend to believe that we should use the more evolved part when we can. There was a reason it developed.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:34] herman Bergson: You create some "higher" me that evaluates the way I use all brain parts in cooperation....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical
[13:34] CB Axel: Unfortunately, when we are under stress, the more primitive parts tend to take over.
[13:34] herman Bergson: ti is almost the homunculus fallacy....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: It is true what you say CB...
[13:35] herman Bergson: Under stress the reptilian brain kicks in :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): kind of logical
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its like reflexes
[13:36] herman Bergson: I a gree Bejiita....
[13:36] CB Axel: Yeah. A lot like reflexes.
[13:37] herman Bergson: But what is interesting here is that someone evaluates the functioning and cooperation of the brain and brain parts
[13:37] herman Bergson: it slips always into our statements...
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is different from before
[13:38] herman Bergson: I think the main problem in such a debate like this is, that we have no clue what consciousness is....
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still
[13:38] herman Bergson: we know we are conscious....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe¨
[13:39] herman Bergson: the neuroscientists try to make us believe it is our brain....
[13:39] herman Bergson: BUT CB evaluates the actions of the brain....so..transcends the brain...which is because of consciousness
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what if they aer right
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it would be the first time anyone discovered it
[13:40] herman Bergson: then I just say , they are not, Gemma...lol
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok ll
[13:40] CB Axel: Well, it's one part of the brain evaluating another part.
[13:40] CB Axel: Almost like two brains.
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which part of the brain is conscious?
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes...we all know that....
[13:40] herman Bergson: that is i ok...
[13:40] herman Bergson: but we do not know consciousness....
[13:41] herman Bergson: the only thing we know is that consciousness stops when we are dead...
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hoe do you know Herman?
[13:41] herman Bergson: lol
[13:41] herman Bergson: because other people say so Beertje....
[13:41] CB Axel: That's just what I was going to ask. Many believe that there is life after death. Is that consciousness?
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no one knows
[13:41] herman Bergson: relatives at your funeral :-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well since we did not do it yet beertje i agree
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we can believe it
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or not
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like the most fervant religious
[13:42] CB Axel: The inability to communicate with the living doesn't mean the being is unconscious.
[13:43] CB Axel: Just look at locked in syndrome.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:43] herman Bergson: that is a horrible situation CB.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: but it means that there still is electricity active inthe brain...
[13:44] CB Axel: True
[13:44] herman Bergson: when that stops...you are dead...simple as that, I'd say
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so consciousness is electricity?
[13:44] CB Axel: But you're assuming consciousness comes from the brain.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that thought reminds me of a chicken after you chop off the head
[13:45] herman Bergson: a driving car isn not just gasoline Beertje
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
[13:45] herman Bergson: but without it the thing wont move
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): flops around
[13:45] CB Axel: I don't think we can know if consciousness resides in the brain until after we are dead.
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's still a car..
[13:45] CB Axel: And then it will be too late. °͜°
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so we will never know then :)
[13:46] herman Bergson: we know it resides there CB....
[13:46] CB Axel: What consciousness is and when it starts is a big question for me.
[13:46] herman Bergson: But besides that we have a central nervous system....going into all parts of the body....
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:47] herman Bergson: so it means that the brain is not just that grey lump in your head, but in fact your whole body
[13:48] herman Bergson: What consciousness is, CB, is one of our greatest mysteries
[13:48] herman Bergson: at least to me...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most of us
[13:48] CB Axel: And an important one.
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its both obvious and unexplainable at the same time what it is
[13:48] CB Axel: Iowa just passed the most restrictive anti-abortion bill in the country.
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:48] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
[13:49] CB Axel: It has made abortion illegal after a fetal heartbeat can be detected.
[13:49] CB Axel: Which is often before a woman even knows she is pregnant.
[13:49] herman Bergson: isn't that after six weeks?
[13:49] CB Axel: The people who back that law seem to think that a heartbeat is proof of life.
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): much earlier Herman
[13:50] CB Axel: It's at about 6 weeks, yes.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Never been pregnant..so I am no expert on this...
[[13:50] CB Axel: I say it's not life, it's just a heartbeat. I would prefer to look at fetal brain development and try to figure out when consciousness begins.
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't think they can figure that out yet
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if ever
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ow would have
[13:51] CB Axel: Although, even then the fetus may not be able to survive outside the womb.
[13:51] herman Bergson: interesting thought tho CB...
[13:51] CB Axel: I say it's not alive until it can survive, although we are pushing that distinction earlier and earlier.
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it moves so it lieves I suppose
[13:52] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lives
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:52] CB Axel: But if it can be proven to me that consciousness begins before survival could occur, I'd have to rethink my feelings on that.
[13:53] herman Bergson: The basic problem here is that we are medically able to interfere with the biological process....and we have to find an answer to the question...what to do???
[13:53] herman Bergson: The Romans for instance....when the child showed a physical defect...it was put in front of the father...
[13:54] herman Bergson: if he didn't pick up the child....the child died...
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): terrible
[13:54] CB Axel: And, as usual, the mother had no say.
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the mother?
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): atrue
[13:54] herman Bergson: as usual...
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): chinese did a lot of killing
[13:54] herman Bergson: But hear this.....
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): girls
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a thile
[13:54] herman Bergson: I call it a horror story...
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): while that is
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to get going soon
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i would have been here Tuesday but we had tornado warnings in the state... had two small tornados and a microburst ... trees down all over parts of the state on houses and cars..
[13:55] herman Bergson: Dutch doctors...a few offer a DNA test for couples
[13:55] CB Axel: Yikes, Gemma
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: o terribele gemma!
[13:55] herman Bergson: then they are tested for 70 possible defects...
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was like someone picked up a lad and dropped it
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on us
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was not near the tornado area
[13:56] CB Axel: I'm listening, Herman.
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are not used to this
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! herman
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i have to leave so
[13:56] herman Bergson: ok...went a tornado through this class too :-)
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:56] herman Bergson: anyway....
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): long one
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:56] herman Bergson: after the test the couple gets the result....
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): our brains are spinning like tornadoes now
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:57] herman Bergson: Just listen.....
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it works?
[13:57] herman Bergson: Suppose it was you hearing this....
[13:57] CB Axel: shhh
[13:58] herman Bergson: the result is that you have a 25% chance that your newborn will have the Down syndrom....or leukemia....
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many do that here with huntington's disease and do split
[13:58] herman Bergson: 25%...
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very sad
[13:58] herman Bergson: very very sad...
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aw
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to run
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry!
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu gemma
[13:58] herman Bergson: the horror of medicines to me
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
[13:59] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.
[13:59] herman Bergson: Gemma goes fishing again I guess :-)))
[13:59] herman Bergson: Anyway....
[13:59] CB Axel: Do the parents have a choice as to whether to continue the pregnancy or not?
[13:59] herman Bergson: guess we have collected enough to think about again...
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think parents have always a choise
[14:00] herman Bergson: The test is BEFORE there is a pregancy CB!
[14:00] CB Axel: I hope so.
[14:00] CB Axel: Oh. I see.
[14:00] CB Axel: I have a DNA test sitting here waiting for me to decide whether to spit in in or not. °͜°
[14:00] herman Bergson: the message is..if you fuck you may fuck up for your child
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no need to make child, you can f..anyway
[14:01] CB Axel: But it's not a test for me to see if I carry any hereditary diseases.
[14:01] herman Bergson: parents love to have a child, Beertje..that is the point here :-))
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not about the parents now, it's about a child
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it healthy enough to live a good life
[14:03] herman Bergson: the child that not even is conceived...
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but it exists in the mind of the parents
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[14:04] herman Bergson: the wish exists....not the child in a biological sense
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's what I meant
[14:04] herman Bergson: ok...
[14:05] herman Bergson: I guess we are done for today....:-)
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[14:05] herman Bergson: So...class dismissed...:-)
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well good as usual
[14:05] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time then
[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
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